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。三、委員黃建斌等人擬具《工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案案 。四、委員林思明等人擬具《工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":2030.604,"end":2051.909,"text":"法第三十一條條文修正草案案 ﹚六．委員邱盈盈等人擬具工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案案﹚七．委員蔡宇宜等人擬具工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案案﹚八．委員馬文君等人擬具工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2055.905,"end":2074.218,"text":"法 部分條文修正草案案 ﹖十、委員楊秋英等人擬具《工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案案 ﹖十一本院臺灣民眾黨團擬具《工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案案 》宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2079.155,"end":2106.217,"text":"法本日議程所列討論事項有一百一十三年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等四案以及工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案共計有十一個版本那我們合併報告以及詢答現在依照院會交付順序請提案委員說明提案要旨因為我們現場委員人數已足是不是請問各位同仁上次會議事錄有無錯誤"},{"start":2109.11,"end":2114.791,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":2138.415,"end":2146.502,"text":"黃捷委員黃捷委員不在我們請黃建斌委員進行提案說明黃建斌委員黃啊來了嗎好那我們請黃建斌委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2164.832,"end":2168.173,"text":"工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2184.617,"end":2205.018,"text":"民洋國際科技股份銀行公司在屏東廠的大火事件,造成10人死亡,110人受傷,死亡人數中有4名是我們的消防弟兄。主要原因是因為民洋公司提供的安全資料有缺失,造成現場要進去救災的消防人員在不了解"},{"start":2206.519,"end":2218.684,"text":"現況的情況之下進行救災導致發生的憾事。但想為了避免再次發生這樣的災害一次的發生,那我想將現行31條第七款及第八款一列"},{"start":2220.309,"end":2246.705,"text":"第二十八條之十四將罰款數提高至新台幣十萬元以下、五百元以下。我們希望藉由提高罰款來督促工廠落實對於危險物品的申報義務,避免未來我們消防人員在救災的時候不要再因為不確定的災害環境是否存有危險物質然後就貿然的進場來搶救,那危及到我們消防人員的生命安全。」以上是這次提案的說明。"},{"start":2249.435,"end":2266.17,"text":"謝謝黃建斌委員接下來我們請林思明委員進行提案說明林思明委員林思明委員不在我們請王美惠委員進行提案說明王美惠王美惠委員不在我們請蔡易瑜委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2266.911,"end":2281.371,"text":"蔡易瑜委員不在,我們請馬文鈞委員進行提案說明。馬文鈞委員不在,我們請鍾嘉斌委員進行提案說明。鍾嘉斌委員不在,我們請楊瓊英委員進行提案說明。"},{"start":2290.518,"end":2293.16,"text":"法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條"},{"start":2303.612,"end":2322.561,"text":"及三十九條的修正本席等十六位同仁一起提案。我們的目的也就是看到社會的現象導致人民的生命財產已經受損。所以在這樣的情況之下我們特別針對第二十八條之十四的這個部分也就是在第二項裡頭"},{"start":2324.242,"end":2344.404,"text":"那違反一第21條第二項所定的辦法當中有關申報內容、申報期限之規定或者是申報不實。我們特別修正這樣的文字,讓在執行者可以更加的明確。那第三十一條裡頭其中最重要的也就是"},{"start":2345.665,"end":2360.717,"text":"原本的條文是得連續處罰但是我們的文字修正是得按次來處罰那在第四項裡頭特別也就是針對於違反第十七條第一項第三款公告的"},{"start":2362.217,"end":2377.197,"text":"檢量生產或者是停止生產的規定,我們換句話說把它真正的、非常明確的以文字來指令清楚,讓社會大眾都能夠得到更加的安全,所以因此也希望能夠得到"},{"start":2379.219,"end":2389.585,"text":"各位同仁大家的支持因為我們看到有工廠製造加工或者是使用那麼危險物品值為善盡安全管理的責任導致發生了環保公安的事故他不僅危害了場內的勞工以及協助救災人員的生命安全更影響到作品工廠以及居民的一個權益那麼所以該類的工廠"},{"start":2406.154,"end":2416.725,"text":"現在沒有非常明確的指令所以我們希望能夠修正清楚讓在執行方面的更加的明確也敬請各位同仁大家來支持非常的感謝謝謝謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來我們請張祺凱委員代表臺灣民眾黨進行提案說明"},{"start":2432.123,"end":2453.579,"text":"謝謝主席。這次民進黨這個提案跟很多立法委員跟行政院這個出發點是一樣的因為我們看到包括民營大火案不幸的有四位消防員還有六位員工不幸過世了然後事實上這段時間裡面很多的這個大的工廠每次發生火災的時候每次死傷都非常嚴重所以這一次呢"},{"start":2454.179,"end":2475.373,"text":"我們提案裡面強調要把法環要大幅的提升我看很多委員的這個提案都有把法環提升那民眾黨的黨團提的是至少要罰十萬起跳到五千萬以下而且要採取累進的方式現在目前的法例裡面只有連續法可是呢現在很多的工廠特別是大廠"},{"start":2477.435,"end":2492.742,"text":"當成一個節約成本來看,每次發了以後他都不怕,所以我們大幅把它提升到,一方面要發到五千萬,第二個是採取累進了,就是你要他改進之後,他這一次不改,下次就累進繼續往上加,當他的這個"},{"start":2495.097,"end":2509.601,"text":"他受到這個金額是太大的時候他才會做一部分的改正。第二個我們修正的重點在31條跟39條這邊要強調的是每個月要主動的申報每個月要主動的申報那如果沒有申報沒有改進的話一樣採取累進的這個發生"},{"start":2512.282,"end":2541.434,"text":"我看了很多委員這個案子啊看起來事實上精神都是一樣我們為了消防員的這個安全為了員工的這個安全我們共同來努力那我們的法則看起來是比較高一點點重點是希望可以達到他們改進的這個手段所以請大家可以共同支持謝謝好我們謝謝張祺凱委員的提案說明現在請經濟部王部長就預算解凍等四案委員以及行政院的提案的版本來合併報告請王部長"},{"start":2549.658,"end":2553.362,"text":"主席各位委員我首先針對這個113年度預算的凍結案其中的討論事項案來做一個簡要的說明第一個在科技專案凍結一億五千萬的部分這個預算主要是來推動"},{"start":2569.556,"end":2571.917,"text":"六大核心戰略產業、五加二產業以及新的金創台灣計畫、2050淨零排放等相關政策,運用科技專案來整合國內外研發法的能量,鼓勵業界投入技術開發,"},{"start":2587.521,"end":2594.969,"text":"培育學界把這個技術導到商業化跟事業化的策略,推動前瞻的製程晶片設計,先進的通訊技術,智慧車電相關零組件,核酸藥物高階醫材,"},{"start":2602.372,"end":2606.475,"text":"產業減碳技術等等的創新研發,把這樣的研發成果轉移擴散到產業應用,幫助產業突破關鍵技術的瓶頸,促進產業的發展跟升級轉型,這個經費確實是有需要的。第二個本部的一般行政凍結一百萬的部分,這個都是本部人員的維持費、基本的行政工作、資訊的管理支出等等。"},{"start":2630.93,"end":2654.07,"text":"財務財務財務財務財務財務財務財務財務財務財務財務財務財務財"},{"start":2654.92,"end":2660.325,"text":"這個主要是辦理水資源企劃保育、水利行政業務、水資源開發維護、河川海岸"},{"start":2663.336,"end":2670.419,"text":"海水、排水、環境營造等工作計畫,涉及各國家重要基礎建設,因為都與颱風、暴雨、乾旱、改善水環境等息息相關。所以,為了緩解極端氣候帶來高風險、旱勞交替的情勢,水利署用新的觀念推動水資源的開發、維護、保育、管理、防洪工作。"},{"start":2693.427,"end":2710.055,"text":"來解決各項的水旱災的問題以及改善水環境,所以編類的經費確實需要。那能源署的一般行政凍結一百萬的部分,那這個預算主要是能源署的人員維持費、基本行政費跟資訊管理費"},{"start":2711.375,"end":2723.962,"text":"那所以包括這些文書出納採購等等都是來支援該屬的業務推動提升他的這個行政效率那所邊的經費確實是需要那敬請各位委員來支持我們的經費來各項的業務來進行推動"},{"start":2733.877,"end":2742.709,"text":"第二案關於工廠管理輔導法二十八條十四、三十一條及三十九條的修正案做以下的簡單報告。確實在去年的9月22明陽大火以後"},{"start":2748.917,"end":2752.078,"text":"造成這樣的重大的傷亡,那凸顯了業者沒有按照公服法來辦理相關危險物品的申報,跟危險物品數量配置圖的圖縮這樣的一個申報不實的情形。那為了強化工廠在危險物品的管理,那經濟部其實掩體了多項的精進作為,"},{"start":2771.991,"end":2783.883,"text":"也跨部會做一個合作。在源頭管理的部分首先經濟部跟環境部就化學雲的收索功能來進行優化而且優化之後以張斌的產業園區作為"},{"start":2788.814,"end":2797.076,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「工廠管理"},{"start":2818.762,"end":2838.467,"text":"應申報而未申報的工廠名單,在6月底前會完成相關的抽查,來確保工廠都完成申報作業。至於化學與自動溝基的程式的開發,也預計在今年的7月底前可以完成,讓各主管機關可以隨時產出一式未申報的危險物品資訊的工廠名單。"},{"start":2845.816,"end":2875.565,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案件,除了母法之外,也進行了相關執法的修正。我們修正了工廠危險物品的申報辦法,增加動態申報的機制,要求工廠負責人要及時來更新工廠裡面危險物品的變動資訊,而且來修正危險物品投保公共意外責任險的辦法,提高最低的保險金額是現行的一倍。"},{"start":2876.547,"end":2881.451,"text":"總保險金額提高到新台幣7200萬元來增加對第三人的保障。這兩個執法都已經預告完成,預計在6月1日會發布施行。接著就是本次的工廠管理母法的修正。所以這一系列的作為之後,母法的法則部分有必要來做以進行修正。"},{"start":2902.583,"end":2923.467,"text":"所以最主要是把現行的三十七條第七八款的這個部分新增為二十八條之十四那修正的重點主要是經由前面的這些行政的指導配合措施之後那你如果再不申報我們就會提高不申報的這個處罰這個罰款的額度從新台幣五萬元到五百萬元以下"},{"start":2932.025,"end":2955.88,"text":"讓主管機關可以按照個案違法的情節行使裁量的權限。第二個就是裁法跟限期改善可以來並行。現行的規定必須要先限期改善,沒有改善才能裁法。這樣的管制效果是不足的,所以修法以後可以先直接處罰,同時命他改善或申報。"},{"start":2957.166,"end":2979.352,"text":"加強此工廠依法申報的效果。」因為這個修正之後還有執法要配合修正以及地方政府的宣導這樣的配套規劃所以我們在修正第三十九條它的施行日期由行政院來定之為了讓業者來了解公服法跟執法的修法資訊我們也已經規劃了二到五月辦理全國的21場說明會目前已經辦理了七場"},{"start":2986.254,"end":2997.618,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 出許勇悅,所以本次提出的修法草案也敬請委員來審查,並且讓他儘速來通過。謝謝各位委員的支持。"},{"start":3014.721,"end":3037.938,"text":"好謝謝主席做了提案說明我們針對工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及二十九條條文修正草案提出說明目前工輔法對於工廠製造加工或使用危險物品打管這樣以上的負責人只要求投保公共意外的責任保險但此保險並未包含員工之保險保障"},{"start":3039.499,"end":3059.668,"text":"國發生重大公安意外事故,甚至造成嚴重之人員傷亡時,對員工之保障仍有不足之處。此外,雖然勞動基礎法第59條之規定,僱主對於勞工職業傷災害應付補償之責任,但仍可能無法全部填補僱主侵權行為之賠償責任。"},{"start":3061.889,"end":3085.241,"text":"各況許多僱主的負責人也因公安意外而導致財務的破產。因此本席提案需強制要求僱主或工廠負責人投保僱主意外責任保險來協補對受僱員工之災害賠償,且需依現行公共意外責任保險最低保險金額規定投保僱主意外責任險。"},{"start":3086.374,"end":3104.995,"text":"此外應同公共意外責任之罰款規定若未投保僱主意外責任險應採取罰還並提高罰還之金額,除確保職場員工之保障亦可促進工廠安全管理之落實。敬請各位委員支持以上謝謝"},{"start":3108.592,"end":3112.234,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":3140.087,"end":3164.24,"text":"同樣公安本席著重在高雄市的公安樂點區在我林園區中游事故不斷民意怨聲連連市卿更新再造居民引領侵犯在開頭之前要跟部長最後的勉勵您是少數能夠擔任將近四年的政務官"},{"start":3164.94,"end":3190.872,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案案 案件的資深價值在哪裡?就是你對於事情的釐清,能夠接地氣,而且快速的了解掌握原委。第二個,也因為你資深,所以能夠快速的決策。好,我們來看您的價值有沒有發揮。針對高雄鄉親對新世紀的期盼,以及在核定前以及即使核定後,"},{"start":3192.032,"end":3218.914,"text":"在短期的改善計劃跟配套措施以及本席從頭到尾希望在落實智慧化核心管理的主張到底做到什麼程度呢以及林園區真的是最可憐的一群叫做扇尾地區土地遭受污染的部分你們的進度又是如何本席有具體的要求對於新世經這件事情"},{"start":3219.895,"end":3245.555,"text":"中郵的公安事件大概全臺灣也少數有這樣的區域從三月到四月初連環五報三月十號新四清三月十六號還是新四清三月十九號連一個太陽人電器設備也能夠發生這個火焰三月二十五號的新三清"},{"start":3246.977,"end":3263.73,"text":"新三清剛才3月10號3月25都是新三清4月10號就是清本期在2月27號總質詢後請陳建仁院長能夠加速在520前能夠核定新四清再造不知道目前進度了如何呢部長您請說"},{"start":3266.09,"end":3284.278,"text":"謝謝委員關心那這個確實我們已經在送到院裡面來審查那經濟部是支持中友來更新這個新事情你們在去年7月27號就送行政院了所以行政院你也在我總諮詢你也在場那現在到底進度怎麼樣國發會過了沒"},{"start":3289.394,"end":3297.31,"text":"國防會這邊還在審查當中。部長你要加油了已經通過了現在應該是行政院院本部要排版定案了"},{"start":3299.452,"end":3302.493,"text":"二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":3326.3,"end":3340.152,"text":"但是呢到底這件事情你們到底要不要核定呢?重點是這個東西啊你知道從這個從幾年已經從十多不只十多年前了這個規劃案上一版是民國幾年的"},{"start":3341.038,"end":3361.85,"text":"部長,不過是我上任之後,那我有對行政界這麼規劃。對,之後有規劃,有做相關的修正。然後從去年7月27號經濟部回到行政院,到現在也快一年了,現在進入到五月了,這叫做行政效率嗎?這就是你經濟部真的對於石化產業的用心嗎?"},{"start":3363.37,"end":3369.596,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":3387.389,"end":3406.352,"text":"所以整個臺灣的中下游的這個石化業臺塑的部分他自己生產自營供應他的集團除了臺塑之外全部都靠中游現在的新三青、丙西、乙西、舊四青、乙西全部在提供"},{"start":3407.173,"end":3422.545,"text":"那你現在如何讓他運作滿足業者的需求現在的生產效能低也就算了公安黃安的不斷這是你經濟部口口聲聲要發展高科技產業有的態度嗎"},{"start":3423.766,"end":3452.158,"text":"叫做要ESG嗎?叫做永續經營嗎?公安置之不顧嗎?所以你的階段性公安黃安的計畫是什麼?本席再次為了今天的質詢4月8號你們的回覆你看中遊怎麼回就這樣一頁後面附件說明我希望他針對公安新四清的這個新三清的公安能夠比照新舊四清更新後的智慧化的管理"},{"start":3452.978,"end":3473.987,"text":"有提出嗎?沒有啊!你什麼叫做提出來?你我都清楚啊!如果對我本席來講你沒有逐年編列的預算以及逐年執行的項目那等於叫做空話!所以這一個叫做空話!什麼叫做新三清的智慧化?你們這一份叫做空話!那怎麼叫做舊四清的更新?也是空話!也沒進度!"},{"start":3481.383,"end":3493.711,"text":"所以你們只會救火對於一個已經執政快進入邁入第三次的執政的對於部長已經是第四屆的快要進入四年的部長為何決策上這麼的怠惰對全台灣的石化產業的一個提升你們心放在哪裡"},{"start":3501.411,"end":3503.152,"text":"三月到四月對每個星期每個月都篩開然後就造成的是五環報"},{"start":3520.1,"end":3542.298,"text":"然後再來在這個中郵這邊提出來的這張表是你們給行政院的救世親更新的一個智慧智能管理所以到底你的新三親如果也比照救世親更新的這樣的智慧管理的話那你的SOP現在是的規範是到底出了什麼問題"},{"start":3543.479,"end":3550.224,"text":"是你的這個流程有問題還是執行上的哪一個環節出了問題還是新三期設備老化了這是兩百七十幾萬的高雄市民的財產生命安全欸我想中友的這個場區的安全是第一那我們現在也在跟中友討論怎麼樣做更好的技術特別現在有很多的AI技術來事先預防管理的這個部分部長那我們也叫中友要積極來導入"},{"start":3571.741,"end":3590.14,"text":"把預算逐年執行的項目跟預算編出來吧好不好謝謝再來上委地區這也請部長下去會刊了這這個圖我們再恢復一下你的記憶在右邊叫做高屏溪在左下這叫臨源大牌"},{"start":3590.86,"end":3616.623,"text":"上面呢整個北部的地方都叫林園工業區所以林園工業區的最南端的這塊土地11公頃他剛好夾在林園大牌跟高屏溪出口那他為什麼要提出來呢因為在民國77年也就1988年的時候中油林園廠就上面的工業區油管破裂所漏出來的油沿著左邊的林園大牌"},{"start":3618.277,"end":3632.33,"text":"然後呢就是污染的土地水質遭到破壞這邊做漁民的養殖業完全不能養殖做農他是農地農用他也不能種民侵害的人嚴重侵害民眾的生命財產跟工作權"},{"start":3634.452,"end":3645.542,"text":"所以在這一個段落叫做林園區中善嶺17號這樣11公頃的土地因早期林園工業區沿著高平溪規劃開發加上林園大排的開花"},{"start":3649.766,"end":3671.474,"text":"這也是因應你們政府的政策人民沒有希望要被開挖的那你們竟然要開大牌又要開工業去導致高平溪出口處還獨留一塊農業用地這個山面臨海又礙於農地農業造成地主在地面上遭遇極大的困難土地及水源遭受嚴重的污染無法從事農業使用政府應該協助"},{"start":3673.415,"end":3693.663,"text":"這個土地的活化或者導入工業區內而不是讓土地荒廢。」這個意思是什麼?你工業區來你政府來開發工業區把垃圾倒了倒在人家的土地上好你總是沒說道歉也就算了你總是要有社會企業責任吧"},{"start":3695.114,"end":3700.061,"text":"第11屆第12會期經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案"},{"start":3711.698,"end":3735.216,"text":"然後中遊的理由說我為什麼不比照本席都要求這不是特例喔在林園的五福里十三到十七林最靠近中遊的地方我們都有辦法花了九年的時間來把它做徵收已經完成了居民現在也都在進行當都幾乎到收尾的階段這個就只比照辦理而已那為什麼你的決策會這麼慢呢"},{"start":3737.097,"end":3744.561,"text":"為什麼對事情的了解會這麼的緩慢呢?這我本席非常的質疑。是工業去來污染土地的欸。部長您講個話吧。"},{"start":3748.591,"end":3771.69,"text":"謝謝委員 委員一直很關心這一塊土地的部分那我最近也會再來跟同仁來召開相關的會議部長讓您知道 如果你決策後大概會多久可能會完成 不一定會完成喔因為出來就是都是都市計畫的問題了你知道上次的五福利花了九年 核定之後你們拍板電所以現在的署長我非常感謝他連錦章連署長真的沒有他"},{"start":3774.813,"end":3784.421,"text":"我林園工業區最污染的地段五福里十三到十七你真的不可能他幫我想方法真的我很感謝現在連緊張連酸我真的三聲的真的感謝"},{"start":3785.885,"end":3797.493,"text":"那這個也是一樣百分百汙染的東西啊為什麼不趕快決策呢你一定要讓我再來質詢為什麼作為執政黨你不能讓我私下帶你去看也私下的跟你溝通了你還是要讓我在這邊質詢你呢公開的讓來讓來讓人民來檢驗你呢好以上謝謝呃謝謝代化委員的資訊謝謝謝謝部長謝謝我們現在請邱益銀交委質詢"},{"start":3818.497,"end":3821.818,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":3844.222,"end":3865.698,"text":"和相挺之意。」我記得上個禮拜其實我也特別提到在這樣的地震不斷的時候其實台電的同仁都是在第一線挺進我昨天看到這張照片其實蠻感動的昨天其實在花蓮還是餘震不斷那後面您看得很清楚後面就是富凱大飯店已經要"},{"start":3866.298,"end":3880.666,"text":"快倒的富凱大飯店,結果我們台電的很多的同仁第一時間就在要傾倒的大飯店前面在搶修這些電力。所以如果這樣子還要持續不斷的再去罵他們的話,我覺得"},{"start":3881.607,"end":3890.553,"text":"人性上可能會有一點缺失不過就這個需量競價的機制我認為經濟部跟台電其實有必要再向社會大眾進行更詳細的說明這不是現在才有的不是民進黨政府發明的這是1979年開始就已經實施而且國際上也都是用這樣的一個方式在進行所以我覺得可能還是要請部長您跟台電在就這一方面"},{"start":3911.668,"end":3913.43,"text":"再跟國人進行更詳細的說明。」"},{"start":3932.685,"end":3962.265,"text":"然後這個網友去把最近的停電的報導的次數把它做成一張圖的話我們會看到會是一個很大的一個交叉的X形從2012年的將近兩萬多次的停電到2023年的差不多五萬次的這樣的一個停電其實停電的次數是大幅下降但是被報導的次數是完全不成正比啊"},{"start":3962.725,"end":3990.069,"text":"我覺得還是要替台電的同仁感到相當的委屈那部長這個很多人說不是台電的總經理要下台是部長您要下台其實你這幾年的努力我們大家也都看在眼裡我想還是要給部長一些加油跟鼓勵那接下來我想這個我們還是要提到我們今天要處理的這個法案我們今天處理工廠輔導法這主要原因是因為前一陣子的這個民洋的大火"},{"start":3990.649,"end":4009.565,"text":"特殊部長昨天晚上昨天晚上在我的家鄉屏東的萬丹就出現了一家知名的電氣廠的工廠大火那我們去查了一下齁這個工廠現在他的合法登記是在高雄市在萬丹的這個地方看起來應該是倉儲對不對"},{"start":4012.025,"end":4012.525,"text":"法條文裏頭"},{"start":4039.176,"end":4061.02,"text":"其實我們並沒有把倉儲納入條文這也是我們在擔憂的地方大家園他有完成了特登的登記那他的這個倉儲是不是也完成了特登的登記有嗎他的這個倉儲也完成了特登的登記他這個地址都有特登的登記可是他這個倉儲看起來應該是在農地裡頭吧"},{"start":4064.907,"end":4085.443,"text":"所以才會是特登對早期的特登倉儲可以完成已在農地裡頭完成特登有兩個問題我要請教的一個我們內門啊內門的中破塞因為內門也都是農地內門的中破塞他的外匯的這一些器具餐桌椅"},{"start":4086.894,"end":4096.546,"text":"他蓋了一個廠房蓋了一個倉庫可是他的特登申請不下來因為農業部說農地上面只能做農地使用"},{"start":4097.847,"end":4120.781,"text":"工業局經濟部說這個倉儲不在我的工輔法的輔導範圍之內倉儲不需要去申請所以變成他完全沒有辦法去申請合法的登記那我就不知道大家原是用什麼樣的方式可以在農地上面去申請他的倉儲可以成為合法的登記這是第一個第二個像這樣子的倉儲"},{"start":4122.162,"end":4149.852,"text":"如果他不需要特別申請的話沒有納入我們原來的管理辦法遇到這樣子的大火的時候我們該怎麼處理?未來我們有什麼樣的管理機制嗎?來部長兩個齁一個就是倉儲的部分那因為沒有辦法符合工廠輔導法就是製造業的這個標準我們在工服法裡面有講製造業要有多少馬力以上的才會符合所以要符合這個標準"},{"start":4150.772,"end":4154.834,"text":"才會是公務法納管的對象。」這是第一個。第二個,在之前我們跨部會也有在討論說倉儲沒有人管。他如果發生這些公安意外怎麼辦?結果跨部會來討論的結果就是說倉儲的部分因為他有的會在特定地區有的會屬於內政部管有的會是屬於特定地區管"},{"start":4178.504,"end":4186.969,"text":"三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、"},{"start":4196.155,"end":4213.714,"text":"競技部也可以配合內政部的部分來做相關的這個協助讓他們符合相關的這個消防的法規的需求。」所以部長其實您這樣的說明還是感覺上倉儲還是屬在一個沒有沒有一個明確的主管機關管理的沒有特別對倉儲來定那你比如說像這樣子的"},{"start":4218.298,"end":4244.271,"text":"這個昨天晚上發生大火的這樣的一個工廠到底他的消防設備合不合格那他已經完成的納管登記嘛所以照理講他應該就是屬於經濟部管的嘛對他是他有特等所以是經濟部管家那經濟部對於這樣子的一個管理上面就是他的整個消防整個公共安全的部分是不是也都完全合乎你們的這些規定"},{"start":4245.974,"end":4270.139,"text":"這個我們會都會有這個相關的檢查。我想可能因為昨天晚上才發生大火然後很多事情都還是需要釐清但是就這個部分我覺得倉儲納管的這個部分我其實還是希望經濟部能夠跟一些主管單位其實你說像農地工廠你們很多是要跟農業部協調的我剛剛提到的像我內門很多的中破塞他們就遇到這樣的一個問題"},{"start":4271.499,"end":4298.337,"text":"他跟農業部申請也不行跟經濟部申請也不行變成他的那一些廚具煮東西的那個外匯的鍋具餐桌椅等等完全沒有辦法去設立他連搭個鐵皮屋蓋個倉庫也不知道他應該要去跟誰申請也不知道誰要來管他願意被管啊只要你們能夠讓他合法申請可是部長剛剛我聽您的這樣的回答看起來"},{"start":4299.558,"end":4326.578,"text":"還是沒有人可以去管他的所以這個部分我覺得可能還是需要有一些跨部會的相關的這一些合作然後把倉儲這個事情是不是也能夠納入你的工廠輔導法如果他不是屬於製造業的話那我覺得倉儲該歸在哪裡去管該怎麼管我認為還是應該要訂定一套管理辦法出來好不好再跟委員說明謝謝"},{"start":4329.298,"end":4344.218,"text":"三年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":4346.798,"end":4358.864,"text":"部長這幾天您的時尚形象引起很多的討論但是我覺得這對我們女性從政人員是一個非常大的鼓勵就是說不只專業還可以美麗新舊內閣即將交接部長為國陸立從功40年"},{"start":4367.548,"end":4386.095,"text":"經濟部長顯然應該不會是您的終點。現在很多報導都在分析您的下一步,包括政委甚至中油、台電、中鋼的董作都被討論。如果部長未來被邀請去擔任這三大國營事業的董作,請問部長有沒有意願?」"},{"start":4387.405,"end":4390.108,"text":"我沒有這個接受這樣的訊息我想也不適合對那再請問部長請問一下中油台電中鋼這三大國營企業的董作未來會全部替換嗎"},{"start":4402.918,"end":4418.445,"text":"這個要由新的政府來決定所以您都還沒有耳聞到目前為止都沒有耳聞那您會不會同意說這三大國營企業的動作都應該是專業凌駕政治考量呢?"},{"start":4419.305,"end":4428.113,"text":"一定會用專業來考量,千萬不能夠用政治考量或者是用酬庸來超越專業的考量。」"},{"start":4434.659,"end":4459.489,"text":"就是本席想要問4月20日臺電發了一張新聞,內文寫著說不該把臺電作為政治工房的工具,少數人滑著3C產品卻對臺電酸言酸語,對臺電人不公平。那其實我也知道說臺電的基層人員非常辛苦,這個本席完全都認同也完全支持說臺電的確是非常努力。"},{"start":4459.969,"end":4474.755,"text":"但是台電總經理王耀廷為此請辭。今天台電沒有來,但我要請問部長,作為台電的主管機關,你認為台電是政策決策者還是政策執行者?」"},{"start":4477.117,"end":4501.28,"text":"臺電當然是政策的執行者是所以我們都知道臺電雖然負責全國的供電但他只是供電政策的執行單位那麼請問部長您覺得經濟部是臺灣供電政策的決策單位嗎我們當然是決策的其中一環是其中一環所以你也不是決策者"},{"start":4502.22,"end":4513.084,"text":"負責整個電力的部分當然會有到整個院裡面會有整個國家的需求其實我覺得部長你是針對這件事情你是相當誠實就是您只是決策的一環因為我認為真正的決策單位甚至連經濟部都不是現在臺灣的"},{"start":4523.308,"end":4535.476,"text":"政策、能源政策都是為了服膺於民進黨的非核黨綱。民進黨的行動黨綱第六十四條就寫得很清楚反對新設核能發電機組限期關閉現有的核電廠"},{"start":4540.379,"end":4559.873,"text":"那這個指導方向的源頭代表著臺電的大量虧損全民漲電價全民買單都是因為民進黨的非核檔綱您同不同意我不同意齁 這個我們其實澄清過非常多次那這個確實是惡霧戰爭之後的國際的能力價值高級為了非核檔綱廢棄了"},{"start":4566.178,"end":4578.346,"text":"便宜的核能煤炭又怕被批評製造溫室氣體所以只好選擇天然氣但是天然氣價格高昂儲存不易更容易受到這個國際局勢的這個變動波動這就剛才部長所講的"},{"start":4583.57,"end":4585.931,"text":"所以二五戰爭爆發之後天然氣價格大漲我們台灣的這個發電成本也漲了好幾倍所以過去這段時間來社會上的批評聲音都是針對能源政策現在台灣的能源政策是政治凌駕專業的結果"},{"start":4601.317,"end":4617.902,"text":"逆勢而為當然使得許多文官都會心寒而離開啊。」所以我認為這個王耀廷的請辭雖然表面上是說不忍台電被批評但部長你清楚王耀廷也很清楚如果錯誤的能源政策不由所改動的話"},{"start":4618.942,"end":4641.485,"text":"再換一百個總經理也沒有用啊,再換部長也沒有用啊,王耀廷他是從基層做起的文官,他的請辭真正的意涵就是在向即將上任的賴總統跟卓院長表達非常明確的訊息,就是如果再不改正能源政策,台電也不願意再為民進黨背這個黑鍋。"},{"start":4642.786,"end":4647.512,"text":"這才是王耀廷請辭的真正意涵,不曉得我們的部長認不認同?完全不是,這個他已經總經理也說得非常清楚那因為大家沒有辦法就事論事對於地震之後的機組故障以及相關的壞掉的這個部分"},{"start":4662.188,"end":4663.149,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4683.809,"end":4686.312,"text":"他說賴清德應該重新檢討非核政策。」這個你同意嗎?我想各個意見我們都尊重。那我想新的政府我們對我們現在的這個臺灣的這個相關的供電的問題"},{"start":4700.231,"end":4728.084,"text":"振頓的智庫的全球臺灣研究中心研究員﹖就是﹖呃這個﹖Jordan Margulis﹖他也分析臺灣的核能政策文章﹖他就說因為半導體的發展臺灣是亞洲人均耗電最高的地區但臺灣的電力供應顯然並沒有跟上腳步民進黨極力推的這個非核家園導致核電從2011年四百﹐四十二百萬瓦到2022年的"},{"start":4729.685,"end":4753.81,"text":"二十四百萬瓦。」就是雖然這個2018的公投大家都希望說核電以核養綠但是蔡英文總統跟賴清德仍然持續要推動這個非核政策那再生能源到現在也遙遙無期所以現在連最掌核最得利的德國到去年他已經完全"},{"start":4754.79,"end":4768.485,"text":"無核化了現在也開始討論要重啟核電那我記得上一次問部長7月開始核三就要準備退役當時部長回答說會如期退役那經過這段時間我同樣的問題問部長不曉得您現在的答案為何"},{"start":4774.811,"end":4779.434,"text":"我想核電要延續那委員也很清楚那第一個這個要能夠這個科學的討論第二個核能的安全第三個相關的現在的規定核電這個運轉40年按照現在的規定它就是要停止所以它是有討論空間的嗎還有核後端的核廢的處理我想這個都需要台灣社會的共識"},{"start":4801.245,"end":4815.411,"text":"專業討論,包括合術董事長童子賢,他同時也是民進黨新境界文教基金會的副董事長,而董事長就是賴清德總統。他近日發表演講的時候提到缺點,他說他反核三十年,"},{"start":4815.871,"end":4840.868,"text":"但是想法改變了他認為地球暖化才是公敵何能不是所以他改變了三十年來的反核立場一個反核三十年的人想法都會改變國際上的潮流也興起重啟核能這一點希望經濟部一定要用專業超越這個政治考量因為民進黨的政策也是會轉彎的阿2016年前民進黨也反對萊豬阿2020年"},{"start":4846.011,"end":4848.254,"text":"開板開放來租,包括2015年反對開放輔導食品進口,2022年也是開放了輔導食品進口,包括說2005年那時候的不分區立委蔡英文,她就說"},{"start":4861.67,"end":4874.138,"text":"台灣必須靠電能帶動經濟,核四一定要興建,結果2011年蔡英文主席又重提非核家園,所以其實討論的空間是有的,這一點部長同意嗎?"},{"start":4891.71,"end":4913.522,"text":"祝福部長。謝謝張家俊委員的發言。接下來我們請鄭天才委員發言。主席、貴委、有請部長。來請王部長。"},{"start":4922.808,"end":4948.589,"text":"今天我們審查工廠管理輔導法這個在去年九月二十二號民陽大火造成十人死亡一百一十一人受傷這一個非常嚴重的然後這個屏東大火永宵四個人殉職七個人受傷"},{"start":4952.032,"end":4976.385,"text":"當時一百一十二年九月二十七號當時是在內政委員會然後這個經濟部也有提書面報告這裡面特別提到這個依據工廠管理輔導法二十一條規定危險物品要申報但是沒有申報就是這個民養大火這個部分也提到這個相關的這些"},{"start":4977.925,"end":5003.348,"text":"處方數量超過消防法第十五條的規定。」當時內政部的報告也提到,屏東縣政府消防及衛列管為公共危險物品的長手,這是當時的一個民營公司大火所造成的非常大的悲劇。"},{"start":5005.148,"end":5023.537,"text":"好,我們看今天這個經濟部的報告裏面提到強化沿途管制。你們特別跟這個經濟部與環境部強化優化化學與溝基搜尋功能。"},{"start":5025.195,"end":5046.571,"text":"這個光篩選出的章兵產業延期疑似因申報而未申報工廠145家名單查報有65家廠商吸補申報。」所以這個部分光一個章兵產業延期那當然你的報告沒有提到其他的是不是都OK都沒有問題"},{"start":5048.291,"end":5055.237,"text":"草案延期也不是只有在這裏而且上次發生的這個大火"},{"start":5056.658,"end":5081.436,"text":"是在南部的科學研區裡面所以這個部科學產業研區裡面所以這個數字是不是有其他的都沒有問題還是為什麼只提到這個因為我們是先把張斌做示範趕快來做那我們也有報告也有提到我們其實是會全國性來辦這個事情那這個會到六月底來抽查完成"},{"start":5082.136,"end":5084.597,"text":"管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5110.494,"end":5134.621,"text":"法現行條文及行政院版所提的條文,工廠有消費情形之一者,由主管機關工廠負責人新台幣五萬元以上,五百萬元以下。」這個差距很大,五萬到五百萬是相當大的差距,而且增加很多很多很多,這個部分"},{"start":5137.253,"end":5156.918,"text":"這九案就是沒有申報的違反第二十一條第一項規定為依期限申報危險物品的這個未來在執行的執行的時候到底要五萬還是十萬還是一百萬還是兩百萬還是五百萬你們會根據什麼"},{"start":5157.981,"end":5159.242,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查．一、處理或審查．一、處理或審查．一、處理或審查"},{"start":5188.328,"end":5211.71,"text":"一個授權的條款,這個是一個考量。另外就是說在這條文裡面直接就講說依其管制的數量或是管制的種類來去。這起碼有一個比較明確的在法律的條文裡面數量或是種類"},{"start":5213.134,"end":5217.057,"text":"中央主管機關科學工業延期、加工出口期、自由貿易港期、農業科技延期。"},{"start":5241.133,"end":5267.996,"text":"法第二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。如何去落實這很重要因為現在剛才講的名陽道或是張斌你剛你們已經查了這些之所以因為他是跟你經濟部申請中央主管機關申請申請我通過了就走了他會不會去想到這個"},{"start":5269.565,"end":5298.197,"text":"還要跟地方政府去申報這些東西。」所以這個就是這個畢竟這些申請工廠設立登記的都並不是法律的專業的人每一條條文都看完了我不知道可能很多都沒有了他可能就按照那個申請管理申請工廠登記的那個表格就填一填填填所以那個部分"},{"start":5299.943,"end":5305.306,"text":"凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等22條條文修正草案 。"},{"start":5329.315,"end":5329.736,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任"},{"start":5345.976,"end":5349.981,"text":"像科技產業園區裡面的這個資訊系統那所以這個系統是互通的那另外就是說我們最近也辦非常出名會就像委員講的我們也會跟大家講說這個的申報SOP是怎麼樣那跟誰申報那另外也會透過舊的原來工業區的各個"},{"start":5366.4,"end":5393.927,"text":"區的承辦同仁的要跟區內的廠商說明說你怎麼申報那應該向誰申報相關的系統都讓他非常簡便的可以瞭解是所以這個部分很重要有對這個其實比法則還重要尤其好接下來就是下面這個最後一項直轄市縣市主管應將第一項工廠資料建檔列管並轉資有關機關是我上次在"},{"start":5395.226,"end":5418.042,"text":"內政委員會去年質詢的時候就要求有關機關就要給消防機關消防機關不是到了現場才知道危險物品的狀況平常就要知道一發生刺激的時候就知道很清楚"},{"start":5419.398,"end":5439.79,"text":"所以這個部分是沒有錯那這個部分除了這個原來申報系統之外那就是環境部有個化學雲這個系統那這個化學雲怎麼讓消防人員可以清楚知道這個工廠有沒有危險的所以我們之前的幾個月呢就是在做這個事情好對加油是是好謝謝鄭天才委員接下來我們請陳廷飛委員發言"},{"start":5459.249,"end":5461.383,"text":"二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5468.3,"end":5470.061,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5497.958,"end":5500.74,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案 案"},{"start":5527.737,"end":5552.82,"text":"基本上是有預算的限制不是所謂的誰申請都OK也有條件的限制他必須要到達某一個門檻他才能夠得到所謂政府的協助補助但是如果他連諮詢都不知道他連提都沒辦法提他就會覺得他好像是孤兒一樣所以"},{"start":5553.54,"end":5555.522,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":5578.918,"end":5579.098,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5609.418,"end":5613.6,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案件事項,並擬具工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案件事項,並擬具"},{"start":5634.29,"end":5654.731,"text":"從住宅一直移到我們現在所謂的小型開發的民間工業區然後後面才有大型的工業區那才有所謂工業局當時候親自下去開發的我們屬於經濟部的工業區現在是產業園區所以其實它都有一個嚴格跟發展"},{"start":5655.572,"end":5657.693,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案 。"},{"start":5684.943,"end":5711.718,"text":"財團法人或法人可以幫助他但當他得不到這些訊息他就沒有辦法所以我覺得這個部分除了還有智能化這也是全智動化智能化這都要補我們未來在人力不足的地方那也是跟我們所有的所謂的世界各個國家接軌很重要的一個機制所以我真的拜託部長"},{"start":5713.206,"end":5715.047,"text":"二、審查．一）行政院函請審查．一）工廠管理輔導"},{"start":5731.96,"end":5758.839,"text":"所以這個部分拜託所以應該真的就像部長講的你應該很驚訝居然有那麼多民間的小型工業區而且是台南特別多真的但是他們是一直被覺得是不是被經濟不忽略而已也是被台南市政府而且我覺得我們這個部分我也跟同仁討論我們是不是跟台南市政府來密切來合作那怎麼樣在這些廠商的資訊"},{"start":5760.72,"end":5762.201,"text":"二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5786.463,"end":5799.88,"text":"但你怎麼讓他感覺真的是如此而不是你改組歸你改組然後我地方感受不到這是非常可惜的而且我們這一次居然放了一個台南分局在台南"},{"start":5801.5,"end":5828.248,"text":"過去北、中、南,南一定在高雄可是這次是四個分局台南特別放了一個分局所以表示我們對於台南的產業在我們這樣子陸續的呼喚陸續的拜託而且持續的關注跟這樣的一個要求終於讓你們聽到了聲音也設了一個分局那我們更希望在這個分局真正發揮我們的效果"},{"start":5828.968,"end":5832.69,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5855.444,"end":5856.225,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":5882.321,"end":5897.635,"text":"其實部長各縣市的特登的一些審查標準真的非常的不一致有些很寬鬆有些是非常的嚴峻那我們不知道這個標準到底要怎麼定啊"},{"start":5899.462,"end":5904.143,"text":"這大概是怎麼樣去處理啊?這個部分因為要特登的審查這個很多樣那確實我們也覺得對各縣市的審查一致標準一致是很重要所以第一個我們會訂一些指引第二個我們是非常密集把各縣市找來做相關的會商那就是因為這樣也看到各縣市有的通過比較高有的通過非常低"},{"start":5929.269,"end":5952.867,"text":"就這樣的情形去討論出裡面不一致的大概是哪種類型,讓他們來參考。我想這個經濟部是責無旁貸。可是問題是部長,現在很多案子都被退掉了。就是說他沒有補了改善計畫,因為也沒有辦法補啊。因為有些政府他比較嚴峻,所以他直接把它退掉。"},{"start":5954.281,"end":5955.723,"text":"一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、處理或審查"},{"start":5969.582,"end":5971.003,"text":"管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5990.279,"end":6010.066,"text":"副部長,然後另外一個部分是有些沒有送改善計畫都被推薦解除納管,那請問他下一步怎麼辦?重點是你現在各縣市的狀況不一樣,有些這個他在別的縣市是OK的,在這裡他是被解除納管,那下一步呢?"},{"start":6011.066,"end":6013.429,"text":"三年到現在都要送改善計畫,沒有送改善計畫你就要被推薦了。」"},{"start":6037.409,"end":6046.62,"text":"被退了怎麼辦?然後各縣市的狀況不一,就會造成很大的動盪。」再拜託一下,謝謝。好,謝謝陳亭飛委員。接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言。"},{"start":6072.245,"end":6097.748,"text":"來請阿寶定來請王部長好我很好是寶定很高掌你們感受到現在民怨蠻深的4月1號漲完電價之後最近又有一些停電民眾現在是受苦又受氣可是我現在先提醒一個點我怎麼會看到經濟部的臉書上面跟我們的民眾對幹呢"},{"start":6100.108,"end":6124.453,"text":"實際我們連民眾連滑手機打個鍵盤使用3C產品都不行被酸說什麼是酸言酸語啊跟民眾對幹嗎我們打個電腦滑個手機都不行嗎我想主要是希望大家能夠瞭解跟體諒台電在地震過後造成的這些損傷來修復其實台電是用現在民眾是在控理的你有發現這個這個跳電或者停電跟民眾打這個"},{"start":6128.194,"end":6128.995,"text":"划手機用剩餘代理有什麼關係?」"},{"start":6144.025,"end":6156.995,"text":"的努力尤其是基層的這個努力我們是肯定的沒有人罵臺電的基層喔現在是你們的臉書是小編嗎還是你們經濟部的態度為什麼要跟民眾對幹呢但是但是滑個手機都要被你們酸言酸語但是現在最重要的部長最重要的一般的民眾打打手機滑滑手機打鍵盤會造成停電跳電嗎你們說他們是酸言酸語我們是希望大家能夠體諒這樣臺電的因為緊急把這個電修復的這個辛苦不要說成是缺電"},{"start":6173.988,"end":6202.648,"text":"來,寶弟,我們來看你的台電的莊經理感性的這個發言。我看,我不知道你有否被感動到。他裡面引述了一個,這幾天一直在瘋傳的一個投書。他說,這幾年啊,停電的次數是減半的,可是報導多了一倍。可是很多民眾跟我反映啊,甚至打電話進來抗議這個投書跟內容。因為我們感受就是,前幾年一直在大停電啊,停的時間更長,次數是不是更多的啊。所以本期就上了"},{"start":6203.8,"end":6232.617,"text":"台電的官網去看,我怕誤會人喔,我想說會不會是我們問政問出問題來了。欸?看一下本來這個數據看起來沒有錯啊,若從前面四年102到105對照蔡英文當選之後的這幾年,從這個趨勢看起來好像有進步喔。這個就是這個投書的基礎,包括我不要去查人民經濟部自己台電都發了說你們確實是有進步,可是呢看一下真正的真相,我問你一下。你看下一張這個真相。"},{"start":6234.687,"end":6260.06,"text":"我問你一下剛剛看的那張圖現在我把它用紅框把它框下來你現在比較的只有像106年你用停電的時間16.89分鐘去跟前面比下面為什麼有一個32.57分鐘這到底什麼事情這東西為什麼要單獨出來為什麼那個東西沒有算進去呢我重複一次"},{"start":6261.121,"end":6268.673,"text":"你用停電16.89分鐘去跟前面算那你又註明一個32.57你怎麼沒有算進去呢?這是什麼粉飾太平嗎?認知作戰嗎?欺騙民眾嗎?"},{"start":6278.717,"end":6283.719,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21案"},{"start":6299.672,"end":6324.024,"text":"為何移花接木把它移走啦?不是移花接木啦,這個我們也都有做這樣的說明嘛,所以委員看到的這裡我們也都有做加注的說明。博定,您把它移到下面寫了三個說明嘛,那一般的民眾清楚,因為這個事情太重要了。你們現在一直把這個我紅色框框的東西把它移走了,然後你們從基準點不對的狀況之下,"},{"start":6325.365,"end":6350.274,"text":"本市太平一直講說你們是停電的時間是往下降的我現在很清楚跟你講用106年為基準來看那時候有815的大停電對不對那時候那一年每戶的停電時間是多少32.57是不是這樣那你為什麼要把它移走呢好那我們看110年發生了兩次大停電513大停電跟517大停電對不對"},{"start":6351.667,"end":6375.172,"text":"他停電的時間多少?四十三分點五十一秒。您把時間內沒有算進去啊!到了一百一十年這個更離譜了啊!三零三大停電欸!停七十一分鐘欸!一點鐘又一點鐘半欸!你們竟然會把這三個東西都移出,三個大停電時間都移出去!我要問你這不只是粉飾太平,讓我看一下,我問一個最簡單的"},{"start":6376.272,"end":6392.494,"text":"大停電就不算停電是不是?您的標準是這樣嗎?跟委員報告我們既然這樣寫就是有特別說明這兩個不同但是這不叫粉絲派我們也如實呈現了那這個我們也是參考其他國家的這種做法也就是說這種"},{"start":6394.616,"end":6405.103,"text":"這個像815這種中有的這個嚴重的事故造成這個氣勁不來等等,那這個的時間確實是很久沒有錯,可是⋯⋯他們不是移除,我們是分別來算計,那所謂的⋯⋯你明明有三個"},{"start":6419.352,"end":6439.13,"text":"三、一百零六年、一百一十年及一百一十一年有四次的這個大停電時間都是很長的你把它移走了移走了完之後你拿了一個不對的一個基準點然後你說你們這幾年停電的時間都是往下掉的那你把它實際的狀況把它加上去明明就是增加嘛因為這一個電力的維護電網跟設備的維護部長我們讓民眾知道第一個把它移走這個到底對不對"},{"start":6445.814,"end":6446.154,"text":"二、審查：一）行政院函請審議"},{"start":6458.331,"end":6484.285,"text":"甚至不要變成是只有您的總經理要請辭的時候,他講說他覺得感慨,我都不知道他為什麼要感慨啊。他以為那個瘋傳的那個基準點是不錯的,是不對的,他明明知道這東西是不對的,他也感慨。因為我們是告訴大家說,原來從每年的兩萬多次到去年的六千多次,台電確實非常努力來解決這些各地的電網的這些事故等等的部分。"},{"start":6484.665,"end":6505.804,"text":"對啦,保定,您現在有聯絡的,我現在是跟你講的,你煮這四個月的大停電把它算進去,你的平均的這個停電時間是增加的。第二個,你停電的次數也是增加的。我還幫你做了一個統計,你先看,你把它加上去之後,加上去之後,每次加上去有時候是一個半小時,一個43分鐘,一個32,來你看下一張。"},{"start":6509.468,"end":6533.584,"text":"你如果把它全部加上去之後蔡英文任內的跳電的次數你把大庭店真實的狀況把它加進去是前面四年的2.2倍時間呢更長啦是幾倍是102到105年的2.6倍所以你們給的東西是基本上不要講說是你蓋牌你說部長說兩種問題是第二種才是一個真實的東西啊"},{"start":6534.571,"end":6536.493,"text":"我們的這個相關的跳電的次數並不是原來的2.2倍。」"},{"start":6546.455,"end":6553.459,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年條文修正草案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年條文修正草案。"},{"start":6573.148,"end":6575.55,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":6601.351,"end":6607.273,"text":"二、審查：一）經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21 年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21 年度中央政府總預算凍結案"},{"start":6621.46,"end":6626.325,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算擬具:「工廠管理輔導"},{"start":6638.052,"end":6653.857,"text":"把這四次的大停電把他加回去給民眾看好不好這是一個真實面的呈現讓民眾可以瞭解說真實的狀況是什麼第二個台電不要去誤導民眾讓民眾覺得說你好像蓋牌把真相蓋住了你要去面對問題才能夠解決問題好不好"},{"start":6655.7,"end":6657.041,"text":"好,謝謝張祺凱委員,接下來我們請呂玉玲委員發言"},{"start":6685.81,"end":6686.791,"text":"謝謝主席,請王部長"},{"start":6693.575,"end":6694.295,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6716.481,"end":6738.231,"text":"對員們對於火災現場的狀況無法正確判斷,造成了市民弟兄弟離難的悲劇。所以我們今天針對28之十四及三十一、三十九條要來修正。針對於工廠的危險物品,如果沒有為如實申報的"},{"start":6739.531,"end":6757.343,"text":"審報不實的或違反審報的,我們原來是一到五萬,現在要五到五百萬。現在本席要提醒的就是說,因為有些不實的審報或是規避審報,尤其是有些物品如果沒有放到工廠內,比如說是"},{"start":6758.206,"end":6765.692,"text":"負責物流業或倉儲業的倉儲設施理念的話,我們要如何規範管理,把範圍擴大?如果講起桃園的話,我統計的話,112年的2月,桃園就有2300家了。所以,我們是不是要擴大他們存放危險物品的地點、範圍跟他申報的場所呢?"},{"start":6784.232,"end":6795.757,"text":"事實上按照消防法的規定那個倉儲業者裡面的這些危險物品本來就都要符合消防法相關的這個可以存放的量所以你們有去檢查嗎?像昨天屏東的話這個就是倉儲這個大火而且乒乓乓的有爆炸的聲音這就是有危險物品啊"},{"start":6804.901,"end":6808.264,"text":"他有沒有危險物品我們會去查因為他是屬於特登工廠那這個我們會去了解屏東的這個部分因為本席會這麼提就是說有些工廠就是規避我們的管理我們必須要全面去管理他如果危險物品存放到工廠的話是符合我們規定的但是放到倉儲業那邊是大量的那是怎麼辦呢"},{"start":6828.021,"end":6837.489,"text":"長處業,因為它有一些,像以桃園為例,它有的是放在特區,那有一些是在一般的區域,那我們這個也曾經跨部會去討論過,那確實這個地方的主管機關對長處業應該確實要加強盤查。"},{"start":6843.974,"end":6863.227,"text":"是所以我們把納管進去全面管理才是最安全的好不好是是這個我們都有跟地方政府提到大型的倉儲業要做好相關的所以我們現在除了說是開法之外我們還要完善去他所有這次的一個妥善性的一個改善"},{"start":6864.248,"end":6882.843,"text":"對,我覺得事先讓他們知道要申報那事先告訴他們要怎麼做管理他存放的地點除了工廠還有可能是倉儲把倉儲放進去倉儲的設施直接放進去好不好這是安全最重要的再來本席要提個老問題啦就是停電的問題"},{"start":6884.653,"end":6902.638,"text":"部長,我們知道台電第一線員工他們在執行這個搶修、維修等等的工程,他們是非常辛苦的,疲於奔命。但是能源政策啊,這個規劃,要規劃得好。如果是規劃得很爛的話,他們真的是辛苦再辛苦,又危險。"},{"start":6903.818,"end":6921.171,"text":"尤其是現在我們包括我們的整個台電完善配電的設施的維修還有加強這個維修幫我們討厭這幾天你看看十幾次的停電所以我們在2018年的時候就有配電系統的這個強振計畫在2023年的話我們還有再提了五年的配電系統的升級計畫這個就是要來減少我們停電的發生"},{"start":6931.479,"end":6933.381,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6943.095,"end":6945.697,"text":"會減少到多少,這個現在沒有辦法就講數字,但是確實在配電系統這個部分我們盡量讓他可以自動來偵測,或者如果有壞掉可以自動轉換這個相關的這個設備,確實經費裡面有增加,來趕快來做相關的汰換。」"},{"start":6962.765,"end":6988.942,"text":"所以我們看以前的資料我特別去調了一些資料配電系統這個停電的次數如果在2020年到2023年的配電系統停電的次數是有減少看起來是有減少但是部長你再近看一下如果超過500戶的這個數量是增加的這代表著什麼範圍增加影響的戶數也在增加"},{"start":6990.458,"end":6991.419,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查：一、處理或審查：一、處理或審查"},{"start":7008.789,"end":7009.129,"text":"新達電廠一號、二號機要除役,還有民營的"},{"start":7029.819,"end":7051.332,"text":"賣寮電廠一號機、二號機合約也都到期了,再加上河山廠一號機也將在七月都除役,這個總會減少的總量是315萬瓦,但是我們看到你在增加的這些其他的店裡面已經可以補這個缺口的部分,您說你民營的部分的話有這個"},{"start":7052.953,"end":7077.727,"text":"生霸跟豐德三號機跟大潭的七號跟九號機還有新興達的一號機這個補上來的有443萬瓦的電力來補足雖然說新發電的多於這個要停掉的這個電力但是我們擔心的就是備轉容量的問題在415的時候備轉容量只剩下2.8%"},{"start":7079.824,"end":7081.205,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":7109.366,"end":7126.714,"text":"才能夠穩定的配電輸電的,以我們的12%到15%嘛,現在你看你這2.8%這是很危險的,何況今年這麼多要除役合約到期的,你雖然有其他店補上來,但是你還要試營、你要試轉、要商轉、要點火還要試運、試轉,這種情形的話會不會中斷、斷層的話補不上來,這個都要"},{"start":7134.778,"end":7138.08,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案件及其中一項行政委員會及其中一項行政委員會及其中一項行政委員會及其中一項行政委員會及其中"},{"start":7166.446,"end":7169.008,"text":"第三十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":7196.17,"end":7211.744,"text":"法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條來強化工廠負責人的申報、督導、管理以及接受調查的責任以利主管機關在稽查管理的時候能夠更加的落實。那你支持嗎?"},{"start":7212.324,"end":7217.907,"text":"負責任職負責任職負責任職負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負�"},{"start":7231.175,"end":7232.737,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7257.278,"end":7258.999,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查〈工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案〉"},{"start":7275.928,"end":7278.071,"text":"而且美國智庫呢他也說了這個基金會他自己也說了台積電在日本熊本的設廠原因就在於台灣的電力不足你贊成這一句話的說法嗎"},{"start":7291.371,"end":7305.865,"text":"負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負貟負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負"},{"start":7316.014,"end":7316.975,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任"},{"start":7341.906,"end":7348.068,"text":"有給你這樣子的一個訊息跟警戒也就是有嚴重的短缺的情況你要怎麼處理?你要怎麼應對?"},{"start":7363.772,"end":7372.501,"text":"但是對台灣來講台灣其實不適合去發行那一種大模型的這個AI訓練模型台灣應該針對專業的這個專業的使用用小模型的這個部分來做你暫停你的發言你這樣子會唱衰台灣你暫停你的發言不是你可以決定整個產業的未來走向"},{"start":7386.434,"end":7387.114,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查：一、處理或審查"},{"start":7416.974,"end":7434.902,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案件事項,包括工廠管理輔導法第二十八條及三十一條條文修正草案案件事項,包括工廠管理輔導法第二十八條及三十一條條文修正草案案件事項,包括工廠管理輔導法第二十八條及三十一條條文修正草案案件事項,包括工廠管理輔導法第二十八條及三十一條條文修正草案案件事項,包括工廠管理輔導法第二十八條及三十一條條文修正草案案件事項,包括工廠管理輔導法第二十八條及三十一條文修正草案案件事項,包括"},{"start":7438.616,"end":7454.006,"text":"還不到限電是跳電或者是停電這樣的情況那民眾當然憂心有沒有可能從根源將合二合三場會延逸有沒有可能我想兩件事一個就是因為意外造成了這樣的一個機組故障"},{"start":7455.647,"end":7477.961,"text":"或者平常這個機組的這個設備壞掉這是一件事情那這個跟有沒有核電坦白講是沒有關係的那至於委員提到…… 不同意這樣的說法因為你明明白白已經機械壞掉天然的災害影響到我們地震十一五你都告訴我們是因為地震那我們都接受只要民眾要怎麼樣穩定供電"},{"start":7479.582,"end":7487.287,"text":"就是我們一直在找只要有機會那麼所以本席再強調再請問有沒有可能合二合三會研議"},{"start":7489.085,"end":7501.975,"text":"我想在核二、核三的部分立法院有相關的提案那委員也有主張我們都尊重那我想核電的研議呢當然也有這個可不可能執行的部分可不可能只要願意做執行面絕對沒有問題只要願意做執行面沒問題啊"},{"start":7514.364,"end":7518.888,"text":"核電的安全重要性絕對不是這樣的講法,絕對不是這樣的講法,但是我們現在在執行中嗎?你如果這樣的說法表示我們現在是不安全的?當然要專家、學者、專案來討論嘛,所以本校請教有沒有可能"},{"start":7540.409,"end":7541.51,"text":"會不會朝這個方向去研議?會不會?會會去討論!會去討論!當然!所以會不會討論?請教會不會討論?"},{"start":7561.454,"end":7577.795,"text":"工廠管理輔導相關提案你會不會尊重去討論?尊重會不會討論?委員的提案到立法院來,立法院當然就會討論。那你也同意討論?行政部門當然要尊重立法院的職權。所以你也同意討論嗎?是嗎?"},{"start":7580.314,"end":7585.816,"text":"立法院有相關的法案立法院有相關的法案立法院有相關的法案立法院有相關的法案立法院有相關的法案"},{"start":7608.683,"end":7623.371,"text":"在一個中油董事長在4月19號的告訴我們天然氣是明顯的在上揚,油價還好,現在71塊美金。但是本校要請教,今年1月到3月,LNG的部分我們總共吸收了107億元。"},{"start":7624.992,"end":7625.472,"text":"工廠管理輔導 工廠管理輔導 工廠管理輔導"},{"start":7653.246,"end":7678.857,"text":"打平 打平所以目前我們維持了這個打平的看法跟想法呢那麼你有可能還會調漲油氣價格嗎會不會因為有人說九月份就要調喔我們都很緊張欸不能再調欸所以現在立法院也有一個提案喔四月份你調了四月一號的電價九月份是不能調喔那也包括油喔請教部長"},{"start":7681.418,"end":7682.559,"text":"負責管理負責管理負責管理"},{"start":7702.506,"end":7721.477,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案件,其中一項是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案件,其中一項是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理�"},{"start":7732.384,"end":7735.005,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21案等21案"},{"start":7750.433,"end":7765.517,"text":"但是你們又有一個訊息告訴我們說2400萬你們又有一個訊息說平均一度是五塊一不要這樣粉飾太平也不要這樣欺負老百姓因為很清楚你們這一次動用到的是180萬度"},{"start":7768.398,"end":7780.222,"text":"這1800000度裡頭你最重要的需量反應措施需量反應措施你包括基本上8塊10塊最後還有一道防線也就是可以在緊急狀況可以再加兩層12塊12塊所以你在需量反應制度裡頭的8塊10塊跟12塊你總共花了1869萬元"},{"start":7792.94,"end":7807.812,"text":"所以本席也希望電當然不能缺電大家怎麼共同去研討但是本席告訴你這個數字也就是說不要再去粉飾太平你明明白白虛量的反應措施就已經花了1869萬就不要再告訴民眾說我這一天的平均值是5.1塊不要這樣粉飾太平"},{"start":7814.778,"end":7825.728,"text":"條文修正草案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及三十一條條文修正草案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及三十一條條文修正草案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及三十一條條條文"},{"start":7840.882,"end":7855.79,"text":"貸款價就是長這個樣子就是給委員這個表的問題不是長這個樣子是實際上就是這個數字我只是告訴你本席要求告訴你我們就把真實的事情告訴社會黨大家才能夠共體時間好不好謝謝謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來我們請賴瑞龍委員發言"},{"start":7871.001,"end":7871.682,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7879.005,"end":7900.632,"text":"部長辛苦了,我想首先要問一下其實上個禮拜包括王耀廷總經理請辭了,其實我覺得這個他也做了很多的說明,部長也做了很多的說明,上禮拜四就不斷講到啦,我看不斷的澄清就其實不是因為缺電所造成的,因為地震後所產生的這個,但是你怎麼說不聽的就是不聽啦,這個"},{"start":7902.393,"end":7924.602,"text":"當然一定很挫折啦對於整個公務體系裡面同仁一定很挫折那我要講的是其實從停電的次數從這個2012年的兩萬一千零一十九次到2023年降為六一三三次其實十年來降了七成可是我們看這個曲線是這樣一個是往下降但另外一個快速上升是網路傳播的速度從原先的2012年"},{"start":7925.902,"end":7953.948,"text":"只談所謂的缺電停電的事情談四次到了最近暴增起來從2021年2022年暴增起來到了二十五萬超過二十五萬次增加了六萬倍了我認為這也是遇到了最大的一個問題就是說專業的經理人所講的話專業的講的話其實在某些領域上是沒有人要聽就是他不接受他不接受之後不斷的去渲染不斷去講自己所以這個往往就會造成了整個"},{"start":7954.767,"end":7958.131,"text":"行政體系上很大的一個困擾你怎麼講不斷的澄清"},{"start":7960.011,"end":7975.724,"text":"但是有些人不接受不聽就是不聽。有一段不斷地渲染出去。部長怎麼看待這樣的一個現象?這就是王總經理他感覺非常挫折的地方那我覺得大家應該就事論事那把這樣的一個事故造成的這個電廠事故或者是這個配電系統的這個設備故障那講成說缺電"},{"start":7986.053,"end":7988.715,"text":"責備相關修復時間等,確實對台電人員是非常不公平。所以我們想要讓大家知道,就這個事故的部分,跟大家可能有能源政策的不同,應該要分得清楚,不要把它混為一談。"},{"start":8007.551,"end":8036.39,"text":"政黨兼有不同的能源政策能源思考這個當然相互尊重但是在專業經理人專業意見這個要尊重他們的專業的那個然後若連這個部分都沒辦法去幫忙捍衛他們的一些基本的尊嚴跟他們整個說話的權利的時候那當然說的文官的體系會更加的辛苦啦這個我覺得長遠來說對國家絕對不是一件好事情所以我們也再次呼籲啦其實應該要不要讓草野的攻防滲入到影響到了整個專業文官的那個"},{"start":8036.73,"end":8046.642,"text":"三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之"},{"start":8056.052,"end":8075.805,"text":"實施大家共同的責任,若我們不捍衛的話,將來我認為這個現象會讓台灣往下走。我認為其實大家共同的責任。那再來其實我認為其實在2018年的時候我在諮詢沈榮金部長我就曾經問過了當我們核廢料的部分災黨不要核廢料"},{"start":8076.585,"end":8105.384,"text":"當我們深奧的電廠他不要空氣污染他不要燃煤當我們的山街要做的時候燃氣也不要山街也不做當我們的綠能在發展的時候用各種方式去抹黑攻擊綠能那電從哪裡來?沈榮進部長當時當然講的比較玩笑話因為聽了旁邊喔啊擦鼻孔來來那個但事實上這一個很無奈的發言所以說我覺得這也是另外一個問題所有的人士都應該來思考當你什麼都不要什麼發電方式都不要的時候你要電那電從哪裡來?"},{"start":8106.625,"end":8122.005,"text":"所以我覺得這個是很深刻的要去處理我從前兩天看到王耀廷總經理的發言上也是很無奈這樣要晶圓廠但是不要發電廠連電電鎖你看松性電電鎖那個東西拖了多久然後完全無法來推動"},{"start":8122.566,"end":8123.247,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查：一、處理或審查"},{"start":8140.56,"end":8145.901,"text":"把這樣的一個扭曲這個絕對不是缺電的問題那這個絕對不是我們不願意供電而是這個相關的阻撓超過了20年那造成這個delay這個讓變電所的建設delay那這個就造成在那個地區如果大用戶的話那就可能會受到限制我想這個事實是因果關係不要弄混淆了"},{"start":8164.226,"end":8178.075,"text":"所以部長在那個電力的那個輸送出去的那個還是要持續的去溝通說明你不能連電力的手都不要的時候那你要電力的穩定性所以台北市政府在最近終於給我們了所以我們趕快加緊來蓋那還要蓋臨時的再蓋正式的"},{"start":8182.858,"end":8203.831,"text":"電廠電廠電廠電廠"},{"start":8203.911,"end":8205.612,"text":"二、審查．一、處理或審查一、二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":8227.861,"end":8251.178,"text":"所以我覺得部長跟所有的同仁我們繼續努力我覺得國家是大家的台灣是大家的大家要同心來推如果都用偏狹的觀念的話那我高雄發的電我不往中送往北送的話那北部怎麼辦所以我說這個是要有整體國家一體的概念這樣國家才會進步好不好我希望部長跟所有的要勇敢大聲的不斷的把這些事實對外講"},{"start":8251.758,"end":8252.619,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任"},{"start":8268.291,"end":8288.863,"text":"謝謝那今天我們來處理的是工廠管理輔導法其實問題也出在於罰則過低所以上次的這個民洋的部分後來他用消防法罰了240萬那事實上工廠管理輔導法確實偏低的狀況結果那過去只有這個1到5位這個這個太低了完全無嚇阻力所以這一次我們增加到了500這也是院版嘛對不對"},{"start":8290.204,"end":8299.591,"text":"那我裡面還有提到的甚至於如果遇到一些重大的狀況的時候可以得勒令停工再復工這樣的狀況部長同意這樣的做法嗎?"},{"start":8301.463,"end":8327.808,"text":"本來對這樣情節重大的時候我們就有這個機制對我只有這個機制我只把這個機制納入法裡面來就像當時的中油這個大林場發生2022年那次嚴重的時候事實上也是當然是停工了然後後來再申請後再復工事實上重大的時候都有這樣的程序那我們只把這個程序放到法裡面來我也希望部長思考一下啦齁如果放進來給予業者更大的一個壓力其實程序上也都這麼做啦齁"},{"start":8328.628,"end":8356.927,"text":"只要發生重到大概都是一定停工再復工我們希望明天再來來討論也希望部長能夠支持好謝謝部長辛苦了部長謝謝好謝謝賴瑞隆委員接下來我們請邱志偉委員發言邱志偉發言之後我們就休息五分鐘沒有啦我怕被你打死謝謝主席有請王部長"},{"start":8357.974,"end":8385.44,"text":"來,請部長。委員好,是。部長,這個臺電所有同仁,特別是第一線的,碰到這個天災或碰到任何緊急事故,都是冒著生命危險的,沒日沒夜的搶救。他們心腦我非常了解。因為我的選區所在地就是沿海地區,海鋒來這個停電的這個距離非常大,又有電廠。"},{"start":8386.966,"end":8415.618,"text":"所以很多同仁每日每夜為了國家的電力穩定在付出。立法院有些不理性的或知識程度不足的立法委員所發言令人覺得非常痛心。不僅打擊基層公務人員的士氣也製造了很多假象傳遞不實的訊息是局部停電就是缺電"},{"start":8417.148,"end":8440.758,"text":"國會議員不要成為社會的亂源國會議員要成為支持國家建設的穩定力量安定民生的力量這王耀勤、王總經理我跟他相識多年從基層做起腳踏實地勢必攻輕專業度夠而且又有夫樂成"},{"start":8442.598,"end":8461.47,"text":"連他那麼盡心盡力為國家為電力穩定功力在犧牲奉獻的這個公務人員都還要受到這些這個這個屈辱我覺得這些亂講話知識水平不足的國務委員要深切反省你會遭到天譴這個部長在520之後你下一步會去哪裡"},{"start":8471.825,"end":8473.827,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":8499.318,"end":8528.485,"text":"所以不管是行政或立法部門我們心中是人民國家讓國家更好讓人民更幸福沒有一個公務人員會再懈怠沒有一個國會議員應該懈怠沒有一個國會議員要昧著良心說話這個啊閒者做實事啊愚者博聲亮可惜的是啊議法院愚者太多"},{"start":8530.771,"end":8535.173,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查．一、處理或審查．一、處理或審查．一、處理或審查"},{"start":8553.21,"end":8562.174,"text":"經濟部有運用役後特別預算,在各縣市有設立輔導攤,高雄市取得特徵100%,納管衛燈工廠取得特徵比率非常低,總計加起來不到三成。"},{"start":8571.597,"end":8579.021,"text":"這個部分你這個輔導團之後預算用完之後你還有沒有相關經費來協助輔導團來給輔導團因為業者需要持續的輔導現在的東西因為你還有75%還沒有取得這個取得特登"},{"start":8588.274,"end":8589.294,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8611.423,"end":8613.504,"text":"管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8638.854,"end":8639.855,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":8663.055,"end":8677.715,"text":"所以這個部分在工廠管理法裡面要怎麼去做一些規範?他如果不是屬於製造業的話沒有在我們工福法裡面的部分但是他仍然應該要按照消防法部分來做相關的申報危險物品的申報"},{"start":8679.933,"end":8706.051,"text":"不要讓這個倉儲成為一個消防或者是這個工業區治安的一些安全的一個引爆點。是這樣是工業局要負責還是還是地方政府要負責?倉儲要地方政府跟這個消防的單位負責。海淡廠那個水利署署長"},{"start":8707.45,"end":8720.937,"text":"國外有些新技術,我希望你去了解一下,怎麼樣讓這個新技術引進,讓這個新技術引進,然後你把透過這個效益,讓海蛋廠的效果能夠提高。」"},{"start":8723.251,"end":8748.443,"text":"謝謝委員提供這個訊息事實上我們每年的這個國際水州包括你所提供的這個技術還有甚至包括澳洲它也有屬於是類似的技術是浮動式的我希望能夠引進新的技術來降低成本提高它的這個淡水的生產量因為我驅水的問題會變常態性所以如果你要提高成本你現在成立建置一個這個海淡廠大概要50億吧"},{"start":8750.23,"end":8752.05,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":8773.556,"end":8775.117,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案案案案。"},{"start":8802.999,"end":8813.287,"text":"函請銷,中國利用一些政策工具,例如函請銷稅,商務部對中鋼有些函請銷的作為,對台灣業者經營市場的影響有沒有做相關的評估?"},{"start":8825.334,"end":8827.256,"text":"那我們有沒有報復性的措施?或是鑿之罪名還是真的有這種事實?"},{"start":8853.52,"end":8878.798,"text":"如果以我們看之前中國剛針對PC的這個函請銷的那個個案事實上會進口到中國的包括韓國、臺灣跟泰國那臺灣只是佔進口的百分之二十幾所以聚碳酸子這個部分對臺灣之外有其他進口國有他只拿臺灣開刀是對不對而且我們的進口比率還算低的"},{"start":8880.075,"end":8885.218,"text":"凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案"},{"start":8909.062,"end":8930.834,"text":"的反傾銷的指控是不符合事實的,那我們要不要實行一些報復作為?」兩件事齁,針對這個不符合,我們如果覺得他這個不合理的時候,我們確實第一個要應訴,第二個判了之後我們是不是應該要去勝訴,那這個是一回事情,這個是國際的規則。那至於我們的部分應該看這個的"},{"start":8932.955,"end":8941.977,"text":"二、審查．一）行政院函請審查．一）工廠管理輔導二、審查．一）工廠管理輔導三、審查．一）工廠管理輔導四、審查．一）工廠管理輔導五、審查．一）工廠管理輔導六、審查．一）工廠管理輔導七、審查．一）工廠管理輔導八、審查．一）工廠管理輔導八、審查．一）工廠管理輔導九、審查．一）工廠管理輔導十、審查．"},{"start":8954.52,"end":8955.081,"text":"負責處理負責處理負責處理負責"},{"start":8967.472,"end":8973.394,"text":"事由化學品儲槽業,可不可以問答?事由化學品儲槽業,可不可以問答?事由化學品儲槽業,可不可以問答?"},{"start":8986.681,"end":8987.161,"text":"副部長,辛苦了!"},{"start":9016.892,"end":9040.572,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度"},{"start":9049.353,"end":9052.525,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案。"},{"start":9286.83,"end":9290.297,"text":"來喔那個各部會趕快摳一下你們的手掌回到座位囉還有30秒喔"},{"start":9336.305,"end":9364.78,"text":"好,來,我們現在繼續開會接下來我們請鄭正前委員發言謝主席,我想請一下王美花部長來,請部長還有我們內政部消防署的副署長今天是副署長來是副署長嗎副署長好,委員好"},{"start":9373.083,"end":9393.86,"text":"今天我們委員會這邊特別在審工廠管理輔導法為什麼我同時請部長還有我們內政部這邊的代表一起來第一個看到了就是520之後我們美化部長可能有另外的一個位置要去"},{"start":9394.941,"end":9422.417,"text":"那我想說雖然之前我們對經濟部這邊也有很多不同的質疑可是我覺得在工廠管理輔導法這件事情當中我覺得經濟部顯然比內政部有誠意的多要來解決去年屏東民洋大火之後所產生的問題這一點我覺得是要給經濟部這邊一個肯定因為我們今天在審工廠管理輔導法這邊就是因為去年民洋大火之後然後工廠"},{"start":9423.858,"end":9440.189,"text":"當中有很多危險物品,可這個問題不只是我們經濟部要面對的,內政部、消防署這一邊是真正的相關的關係人啊。可是我想問一下內政部這一邊,你們消防法體育修正了沒?在送進院會裡面來了沒?"},{"start":9443.164,"end":9471.811,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們本來已經都修好完成可是在這個過程中又要增加有關於消防同仁的職安的專章大概有13個條文所以我們整個案子在院裡面跟我們指示要整個案子整個完成之後才在在做相關的送審那現在目前的草案已經完成我們也完成了所謂的性別以及那個簡單回覆你們這個消防法的修正什麼時候會送到立法院來"},{"start":9473.351,"end":9495.087,"text":"因為行政院這邊也都還沒有過嘛是因為屆期不連續啦所以我為什麼特別講說經濟部在這件事情當中要解決危險物品處理的部分比內政部來得有誠意的多因為同樣都碰到屆期不連續可是經濟部已經送進來了我們今天經濟委員會已經在審了所以您把這個訊息帶回去請內政部加快腳步"},{"start":9496.547,"end":9514.035,"text":"當時其實去年美洋大火之後消防人員他們提出了三個主要的訴求請都好好的加以考慮盡快把消防法在送進立法院裡面這邊來我想說在這邊就跟那個美洋部長這邊就也做一個溝通"},{"start":9515.917,"end":9530.097,"text":"五二零不管說你到哪裡去我相信其實也都會有一個好的一個發展的一個空間那我想特別講說就是我們今天在講說工廠輔導管理法這邊的時候那因為他也是去年"},{"start":9531.118,"end":9532.258,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9553.091,"end":9555.992,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":9580.462,"end":9584.525,"text":"有有這個確實其實處罰已經到後端比較重要是要讓廠商知道說你什麼東西是要申報的那這個就有講到說他要申報之前他說那這個到底是不是要申報我不清楚所以相關的資訊系統我們就在這個過去幾個月跟環境部跟內政部有做非常多的討論"},{"start":9602.319,"end":9607.503,"text":"新竹科學園區的工廠密集,請問有沒有說明會到新竹科學園區做說明?有,我們也跟相關的科學園區管理局密切配合,也跟他們做溝通。我也跟委員報告,其實科學園區的比較單純。"},{"start":9622.998,"end":9623.619,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查"},{"start":9638.337,"end":9641.078,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":9663.823,"end":9692.365,"text":"那我想說在這邊的時候我還是針對電的問題跟對美亞部長做一個溝通因為4月20號的時候臺電有發表一個新聞稿說實話就是王總經理被未留下來我相信對於整個臺電接下來的穩定發展我覺得還是可以值得肯定因為坦白說在野黨對於王總經理也沒有覺得說他必須要下臺來負責這件事情那我只想針對因為在整個臺電新聞稿當中他提到說"},{"start":9693.266,"end":9703.738,"text":"少數人華3C產品使用便利店你卻對台電酸言酸語你覺得這樣子的一個新聞稿適合嗎?部長我想在過去那段時間那幾天確實受到因為這個"},{"start":9708.283,"end":9726.549,"text":"地震造成這個電廠故障然後另外有一些設備故障的部分那確實網路上的這一些比較負面的評論非常讓臺電的同仁受傷啦你也知道基層的臺電的員工其實不容易啦那四一五確實也沒有出現跳電的一個情況確實大家把它cover起來"},{"start":9729.13,"end":9730.851,"text":"二）工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9747.722,"end":9774.293,"text":"可是我們每個人都用電可是我們還是一樣要監督台電他很多部分的一個執行所以我覺得這樣的新聞稿我覺得是有一些問題的那希望說台電之後在整個新聞稿的處理當中的時候能夠相對友善而且更謙虛去看民眾的一個聲音那另外當中新聞有達東還提到一個點他說2023年的事故停電次數跟2012年比降低七成這件事情部長你對這部分怎麼看"},{"start":9775.778,"end":9788.751,"text":"確實我們這個事故的這個都是每一次都有做相關的統計的因為我要特別講一個狀態因為我看了整個的一個年報資料當中"},{"start":9792.008,"end":9798.594,"text":"我發現了一個情況就是我們看到從102年到110年就是台電聯報這邊的時候針對這十年主要經營數據指標的一個狀態那我們看到了一個情況就是"},{"start":9809.938,"end":9832.818,"text":"大約從102年到110年每戶的停電時間還有每戶停電的次數其實都差不多大概都在每戶停電的時間都在16分鐘那每戶每年的停電次數大概都在0.2次數字事實上是差不多的所以我對於這個減少七成這個數字其實是有一些疑惑的"},{"start":9834.76,"end":9850.651,"text":"當我們看到整個年報資料的時候發現它數字是差不多的並這十年來並沒有太大的一個差距那其中的時候尤其是我們在106年、117年跟117年當中的時候有三次的一個大停電"},{"start":9851.852,"end":9852.032,"text":"凍結案 凍結案 凍結案 凍結案 凍結案 凍結案"},{"start":9879.939,"end":9892.143,"text":"指導及指示,希望臺電在面臨接下來的停電相關問題的時候,等危機處理的時候能夠更有誠意,而不是不斷地用去美化數字的方式要來解決這個問題,我們覺得它是有"},{"start":9894.884,"end":9921.665,"text":"不太精確的部分,那如果說有要補充說明的時候再來本辦公室做說明,對於這些數字,怎麼來我看都是連年報上面的數字,但我們覺得是有問題。好,我們停電的次數,我們台灣是用停電超過一分鐘,如果超過一分鐘我們就會算一次,那有的國家是會用超過五分鐘算一次,所以每個國家不一樣,但是我們是用嚴格的一分鐘,超過一分鐘就會算一次。"},{"start":9922.386,"end":9924.567,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21案等21案"},{"start":9955.629,"end":9980.261,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案 請王部長,還有水利署長。我們知道因為氣候變遷的調適,所以行政院投入非常多預算,大概是多少?在水的部分嗎?整個氣候變遷的調適?"},{"start":9981.84,"end":9982.08,"text":"四千多億嗎?"},{"start":9996.141,"end":10024.504,"text":"我再跟委員確認指的是哪一個部分。那我想要說的是從我們就是說西部的這個相關的水能源就是水環境的計劃裡面我們過去也在推廣珍珠串的西部廊道的供水管管網對不對現在目前的進度是如何我知道說像我們的鳥嘴潭的人工湖是已經完成了"},{"start":10024.864,"end":10050.772,"text":"那他可以供給我們彰化多少用水?署長你也說一下。謝謝首先第一個這個珍樹村計畫是部長在百年大憾的時候提出來的那相關的這個各項的工作包括這個圖上面的我們的進度都很順利那第二個部分是鳥水潭人工湖啊我們六個湖區都已經完成蓄水了那未來對彰化的部分的話可以取代原來的地下水每日21萬噸"},{"start":10051.972,"end":10069.918,"text":"所以會提供給彰化21萬噸的用水對不對那我想要瞭解就是說在水環境的計畫裡面為什麼浮流水的開發工程第二期我知道是大概有5900多萬為什麼執行率好像只有30點多%"},{"start":10072.844,"end":10083.108,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。"},{"start":10101.536,"end":10116.439,"text":"人工湖的部分剛剛已經跟委員說明了雖然說他是坐在南投但是他主要的效益是在彰化所以我們也沒有就是在平地人工湖的部分沒有規劃在彰化來進行相關的就是計劃是不是"},{"start":10118.401,"end":10141.937,"text":"這個計畫裡面我們有一個浮流水在所謂彰化的北邊在烏溪的部分烏溪在彰化市市的北邊嘛對不對我們我記得過去的時候好像那個王部長也有過去看過現在目前進展是如何未來如果就是因為氣候變遷導致又又有嚴重的缺水的情況我們目前有沒有辦法因應"},{"start":10143.157,"end":10169.815,"text":"絕對有辦法因應現在在珍珠串的計劃裡面特別是在這張圖裡面有一個台中至雲林的這個水資源調度那這個部分的話彰化跟台中之間會有20萬噸的調度能力那至於彰化跟雲林之間還有12萬噸的調度能力那這個都是雙向的比如說像我們在彰化沿著這個台一線有時候北水可以南調有時候南水可以北調對不對"},{"start":10170.936,"end":10177.525,"text":"凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10188.459,"end":10189.9,"text":"立法院第11會期經濟委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21案"},{"start":10206.613,"end":10209.355,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案件事實上已經獲得控制。"},{"start":10228.544,"end":10230.846,"text":"管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10251.001,"end":10256.404,"text":"凍結案及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案及所屬主管預算凍結"},{"start":10276.936,"end":10280.239,"text":"新能的發展有沒有可能成為一種機載的電力?」"},{"start":10284.652,"end":10313.89,"text":"首先我謝謝委員上禮拜到我們公園院的一區內接肉隊那一天我們有展出的所謂的氫能測試平台那氫能在整個2050的國發會的那個路徑圖裡面將來是會佔有9到12%的一個發電量那我們對氫能公園院公園院對氫能的一個發展其實在2022年的時候我們一個氫能應用的策略的藍圖那在這幾年我們非常努力大家把它分成三部分"},{"start":10314.29,"end":10322.954,"text":"立法院第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第"},{"start":10333.118,"end":10334.018,"text":"三十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10351.725,"end":10364.01,"text":"所謂的積載的發電量,就是跟天然氣一樣,現在我們試驗的是天然氣跟氫能的混燒,那將來是混燒的百分比會越來越多,最後是不是有辦法用純氫發電,這是大家對於2040、2050的一個期待。」"},{"start":10368.131,"end":10392.609,"text":"對,所以有可能嘛,是不是?你認為?我們都有期待對,阿你認為現在工研院的技術裡面有沒有辦法成為就是全球在氫能發展上面裡面比較關鍵的一個角色呢?剛剛跟委員報告了幾個三個方面就從生產跟運輸儲存還有一個應用我們都是以考慮到台灣的所有的限制那在什麼情況之下我們應該怎麼樣的發展"},{"start":10394.184,"end":10412.944,"text":"對那有沒有辦法新的未來的發展有沒有辦法取代太陽光電產業就是成為下一代的能源的產業呢取代應該是不至於但是一定會相輔相成是嗎有沒有就是你至少要比他更好因為太陽光電沒有辦法成為基載嗎是不是"},{"start":10414.276,"end":10418.641,"text":"我期待我們臺灣青能的發展因為畢竟我們就是這一次的電價的調漲"},{"start":10435.58,"end":10457.695,"text":"以及就是大家對於就是石化產業還有淨零碳排的這樣子的一個議題我們知道說未來我們必須要有低價以及乾淨的能源那這正是我們大家的期待啦好不好好謝謝委員好謝謝謝一鳳委員那陳超明委員已經改書面質詢號接下來我們請蔡易瑜委員發言"},{"start":10467.867,"end":10478.355,"text":"管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案案案 。"},{"start":10497.449,"end":10516.969,"text":"科與負責人更高的公安義務,所以我們大概法則會做提高。那這邊我想我們事實上自己也都有提案,那經濟部這邊也是同意這樣的一個修正方式。但是回到這個工夫法的本身,"},{"start":10517.829,"end":10519.15,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責"},{"start":10538.317,"end":10562.947,"text":"那大概是在一個時間用時間來做一個切開那輔導他們可以走向合法工廠但是我聽到的他們縱使納管之後要走到合法包括要繳納的這一筆回饋金事實上沒有幾家可以走到那部長你覺得最大的原因是什麼?"},{"start":10564.448,"end":10565.088,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任"},{"start":10587.659,"end":10600.471,"text":"審理,如果缺人,應該用收取的這些營運金等等來徵雇相關的員工來趕快審理這些案子,那才能夠一步一步往下走。我想這個委員講﹚對,對,他們在欺騙人,這個比較失望,電話欺騙人。而且你看這樣納管的現在的家屬蠻多的,這些納管的基本上每年都有繳交,一年是十萬元。"},{"start":10614.254,"end":10615.295,"text":"最多十萬元,大規模上是這樣,"},{"start":10626.596,"end":10641.562,"text":"但現在看起來就是有一個第一個就是說地方政府人員不足是一個問題第二個問題就是說如果以過去的工廠他們大概蓋的規模都已經那個廠房的型就出來了阿既然那個廠房的型出來他們就是說工廠也有天車"},{"start":10645.803,"end":10651.608,"text":"在工廠的四周圍都長那個樣子的。結果我們現在是要求他們說必須要符合隔離綠帶。所謂隔離綠帶1.5米的這樣的一個要求。那就會變成說我工廠一年繳了10萬元,甚至後來我們已經走到了說要義募變更,然後未來要走到這個工廠可以讓它合法化。"},{"start":10671.883,"end":10684.615,"text":"那合法化後甚至他們的屋頂可以走向用綠能的方式,這都是一個很正面的方向,一邊走,不就走在說,我為了這個隔離預待我就必須要去把我的廠房拆下來,我的廠房要拆一面,"},{"start":10688.198,"end":10711.025,"text":"甚至差異面的可能影響到我的天車,我那天的天車就整個定了。所以大概很多在申請已經在納管中的這些特定工廠,他們走不下去,不然就是他們現在回饋金他們不敢納出來。為什麼他不敢繳出來?他怕他最後是走不到的啊,所以他們就自己也卡住了。"},{"start":10712.718,"end":10730.568,"text":"那部長這一件事情我想你也清楚啦那我們到底有沒有一個方向我們既然訂了這個工廠管理輔導辦法那他們已經納管這麼久了但是他們無法走到最後一步那表示可能是在法令上是有問題的啊不然為什麼他們都願意配合就是無法走到最後一步勒"},{"start":10731.168,"end":10741.598,"text":"要走到最後一步的時候他要變成是特務那這樣讓整個工廠完全變成合法的時候那確實在整個建築的法規的時候還是要符合啦吼那之前有因為這個隔離率在1.5米的時候會造成這個要拆兩次的問題那我們這個有跨部會溝通過不要讓廠商去拆兩次就是一併來做相關的審理的部分"},{"start":10758.252,"end":10783.138,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案件,包括工廠的相關的這個建壁率什麼等等,還是要去符合相關規定。那我們會有專業的來告訴他,你這個到土地合法化的這個應該怎麼去申請審查。我想建壁率這件事他們是願意配合的。基本上他要符合建壁率他們說好哪一塊地要符合一個現在大概是百分之"},{"start":10784.418,"end":10784.618,"text":"建築法規 規定規定規定"},{"start":10815.518,"end":10840.026,"text":"臨近的土地,臨近的旁邊如果是農地的話,你也不可能叫他去找旁邊的人買。去找他買起來,來補他那1.5米。這你也做不到啊。那個是可以的。對,這是一個可以的方式,但是實際上真的是很難啊。就是有成功的案例,有成功的案例。少之又少啦。"},{"start":10841.53,"end":10850.776,"text":"可以真的去買到跟旁邊的買到,那也要帶旁邊的人玩意買的,旁邊的人沒玩意買的,那還是給他用超高價的。」"},{"start":10853.342,"end":10866.991,"text":"但對於他的這樣的一個應該有保留的這個鑑幣率的部分這個部分畢竟他要把它變成完全合法化的時候還是要去遵守這些的相關的規定但是做法上"},{"start":10882.961,"end":10885.383,"text":"所以我們這個部分有相關的輔導團隊來做協助這個確實到要做用地完全合法之前的這個其實是比較複雜沒有錯"},{"start":10898.792,"end":10922.935,"text":"但是我們有輔導團隊來告訴他這個應該怎麼走才可以符合內政部跟農委會的相關規範。」部長我覺得齁,可能跟地方做一個調查啦,就是了解一下現在他們這一些納管、已納管的工廠,那他們現在不管是消防啦,他們每天都在做嘛齁,他們都最好他們為望知卻步,到底理由在於什麼,我覺得這可能你們要做個實際的調查。"},{"start":10924.136,"end":10943.573,"text":"那知道到底這一些工廠他們現在問題在哪裡,那你們把經濟起來。啊如果是卡在說現行如果這1.5米就變成一個不合理的地方,那是不是該檢討就要檢討一下?我們會來跟地方政府來密切就委員關心後半段,因為到後半段這個目前的案子也會越來越多了。所以這個的部分怎麼樣來處理?"},{"start":10946.095,"end":10971.331,"text":"有通過的真的沒幾家,但是我們上路已經到了第四年了。那實質上通過的還沒幾家。我們既然我們這是要獲得他們的,我們就是要聽他們的心聲,知道他們的困難點在哪裡。這樣好不好?好,謝謝。好,謝謝蔡易瑜委員的發言。接下來我們請何欣淳委員。謝謝張偉秋委員。那我們請部長。來,請王部長。"},{"start":10978.39,"end":11005.449,"text":"部長好,謝謝你之前也去參加過我召開的中小企業座談會那前兩天我也看到你到台南參加陳委員的中小企業座談會那我想你就了解說現在中小企業的尤其在傳統產業的中小企業恢復的慢慢還沒有期待中的快那我們當然是期待今年年底景氣會越來越好"},{"start":11006.229,"end":11008.933,"text":"法、工廠管理輔導法在前次的修法,我們為了就是要輔導農地上的工廠可以合法"},{"start":11023.633,"end":11033.036,"text":"那我們一部的一部的和呃輔導那所以呢我也認為說呃我們方向是正確的但是在執行面上我還是要請經濟部部長呃施政是要無縫接軌我也希望未來的經濟部能夠好好的去了解現在呃在工廠管理輔導法我們修法過後正在申請特定工廠的這些中小企業傳統產業他碰到的困境"},{"start":11052.422,"end":11061.647,"text":"一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等22案等24案等25案等26案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27"},{"start":11080.526,"end":11102.206,"text":"所以地方政府現在你也知道他在審理的時候改善計畫很慢非常的慢那在這麼情況之下第一個我們除了要求地方政府要增加人力那也要增加他的專業度而且他們審查的標準應該要全台灣有一致性這個我們經濟部要介入協調"},{"start":11103.967,"end":11108.448,"text":"這第一個啦雖然我每次問這一題你們經濟部都跟我說有協調有協調但是那為什麼各地方政府在審認的一些標準細節上的審認標準還是不一樣我想不是我提而已剛剛有其他的委員提到這第一點因為呢這些申請納管的特定工廠申請中的這些工廠樣態非常的多"},{"start":11127.793,"end":11128.373,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責"},{"start":11144.338,"end":11172.972,"text":"那還有效率要提高現在的效率非常的緩慢所以呢像臺中市我知道的他可能改善計畫的一個審查都還不到一半而這衍生一個什麼問題衍生出我們其他的配套的問題之前我有跟經濟部總辦講過其中一個配套是什麼現在的特定工廠正在申請中的所謂的這個農地上的工廠他申請納管了但是他的改善計畫也送了"},{"start":11174.073,"end":11180.624,"text":"但在台中市政府還沒有審查完畢。」所以他變成什麼?他的外籍移工的合法派遣"},{"start":11181.641,"end":11197.009,"text":"出現了問題,這個問題還不是我們經濟部中辦幫產業界想到的,這個問題還是因為產業界來拜託民意代表,就是拜託立法委員說委員這個時間就要到了,為什麼我們經濟部都沒有主動幫我們中小企業來發聲,放任了這個勞動部還要啟動專案,要從今年的3月19號之後就要開始稽查,這是矛盾的,"},{"start":11209.008,"end":11210.41,"text":"二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":11229.412,"end":11234.356,"text":"一個依據讓他知道這個狀況勞動部說那我可以把這個A、B廠的外籍移工的這個合法申請派錢的這個效期我可以延期你們經濟部還不發文欸你們經濟部還不發文欸就是沒有發文因為這是我親自協調的所以勞動部他知道這個情況了之後自己延長了"},{"start":11254.398,"end":11262.062,"text":"你們經濟部不是應該就站在這個產業輔導嗎而且呢這個特定工廠正在申請當中這個改善計畫沒有審查完畢不是這些申請者的責任啊不是他們的問題啊是政府考量的問題啊結果我們沒有幫忙解決問題這是第一個第二個我必須要提醒部長我們現在正在申請特定工廠的改善計畫裡面我"},{"start":11281.112,"end":11282.413,"text":"三十萬、五十萬至一百萬,不等再幫這些特定工廠來申請。」"},{"start":11311.712,"end":11317.594,"text":"十幾項裡面光是一個生活污水評估你知道就要價多少嗎另外再開價五十萬你像那一個中小企業我們既然政府有心輔導他合法可是呢在這個代辦費用之外我們要求的這個改善計畫的每一項零零種種的改善要求裡面對中小企業來講每一項都要錢"},{"start":11335.819,"end":11337.34,"text":"那為什麼我們政府的輔導團的這個預算編了我們輔導團的作用又在哪裡不過我想也趁這個機會請委員去轉達第一個我們那個改善計畫我們有範本那第二個我們政府的經費我們政府經費確實有像委員講有輔導團來協助他那這個部分就可以降低委員講在外面被"},{"start":11358.755,"end":11359.895,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":11387.223,"end":11393.686,"text":"來,是不是請產發署找個時間跟何委員聯繫一下,好嗎?好,接下來我們請黃國昌委員發言。來,請部長。"},{"start":11416.32,"end":11430.075,"text":"是,好,委員好部長好2021年我回到民間社會了以後接到一個檢舉就開始追蹤這個牽涉到我們台中火力發電廠有個129億的標案其中一個機裝工程那個機裝要灌水泥上面的結構物才會穩那裡面這個機裝工程造假"},{"start":11438.704,"end":11457.398,"text":"當然接到這個檢舉以後我必須要實事求是的去看一看發現還蠻誇張的同樣的單據有不同的出貨內容然後實際上面的單據跟假的單據虛冠的水泥量大概多了一倍以上"},{"start":11458.8,"end":11474.148,"text":"那把這些單據全部都收集完了以後我大概法律上面的確信就一定有造假的問題所以我非常的關心我在2021年9月的時候我就劇狀向臺北地檢署提出告發了"},{"start":11474.926,"end":11502.996,"text":"那告發完了以後呢那個時候臺電公司針對這件事情因為我已經公開揭露這件事情了以後他們有做一些說明他們說這個水泥量初步研判上屬合理沒有發現明顯變造的痕跡也沒有辦法認為這個公司有偽造的狀況好那我們實際看最後的結果今年四月就這個月"},{"start":11504.512,"end":11525.663,"text":"紅展公司偽造水泥出廠單獲利兩千多萬已經正式被起訴了。」我看那個起訴書的內容跟我們當初檢舉的內容基本上是一致的但是他的規模他造假的狀況讓人觸目驚心我具體的跟部長報告從2019到2020偽造了1246張"},{"start":11531.707,"end":11544.865,"text":"水泥的出廠單應該使用兩萬將近三萬噸的水泥結果只使用了一萬七千多噸大概只實際的使用的水泥比他說他要用的水泥只有六成"},{"start":11546.025,"end":11571.374,"text":"偽造施工紀錄表甚至在專心取樣的時候專心取樣的時候是廠商先拿假的樣體然後偷偷的搬到現場去搬到現場去的時候我也不曉得專心取樣的時候現場應該要有人監督但沒有人監督他就拿假的東西出來假的東西出來現在取出了120隻的機裝"},{"start":11573.895,"end":11600.925,"text":"其中有97支是造假的。」我看完了這個狀況以後觸目驚心啊我只擔心一件事情第一個當初台電的調查是怎麼做的第二個中火這個工程真的安全嗎這件事情部長你應該有掌握吧上一屆國會的時候已經有委員提過這樣的問題甚至在總質詢的時候蘇貞昌院長都承諾要正視啊"},{"start":11603.124,"end":11606.965,"text":"我跟委員報告因為委員今天臨時提這樣的一個問題那如果我的印象沒錯的話台電這個部分也有請專家來看第一個造假是一個問題第二個安全是一個問題委員講的那在安全的部分我記得的理解是安全的部分那個專家判定好像是沒有問題那造假的這個部分我坦白講我"},{"start":11631.26,"end":11654.753,"text":"不太記得這個後面臺電這個後續是怎麼做的因為啊這個案子拖了蠻久的啦從我2021年具狀告發到現在2024年4月這個月起訴所以我是利用這一次的職訓讓部長提醒部長這件事情兩個層次造假這個已經是確定了嘛所以臺電該檢討的是當初的行政調查到底是怎麼做的"},{"start":11655.475,"end":11680.563,"text":"因為我今天秀出當初臺電的行政調查報告給部長看嘛臺電全部在文過是非阿那第二個層次你剛剛說安全性的問題現在我一個最基本的問題是如果當初的行政調查報告都已經sloppy到這種程度了都已經sloppy到這種程度了我們要不要重新的檢視要不要重新的檢視當初臺電"},{"start":11684.656,"end":11688.061,"text":"告訴社會大眾說安全沒有問題這件事值得信任嗎?"},{"start":11689.276,"end":11713.981,"text":"那個是我記得台電是有請專業的去做判斷去做判斷說安全有沒有問題的部分沒有關係啦部長您所謂台電請專業的來做判斷這件事情那個專業的報告是不是可以提供給各位委員因為這個大家都很關心這個事嘛主席站起來了我只問最後一個事情為什麼這個違法前科"},{"start":11714.961,"end":11742.773,"text":"雷雷這麼嚴重的廠商,到目前為止都還沒有刊登政府公報聽權。台電有沒有報還是行政程序沒有做完?部長可以回去瞭解嗎?欸這個我再瞭解一下。這種爛廠商喔,絕對要把他踢出去啊。絕對不要再讓他做政府工程了。可以嗎?欸我再瞭解,是。好,謝謝。好,後續再請經濟部去進行瞭解。好,謝謝。接下來我們請侯孟凱委員發言。"},{"start":11751.588,"end":11753.492,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":11760.762,"end":11785.248,"text":"市長,我想還是來跟您就教理念跟觀念立場的部分本身有看到說在前天你們有前往這個中南部做這個企業中小企業的一個座談你特別有提到現在減碳跟智慧化轉型是重要的項目甚至好像你有提到一個例子說如果說跟其他企業現在來溝通的話一個小時有40分鐘都在討論怎麼樣減碳是不是"},{"start":11788.557,"end":11809.115,"text":"這個是我到其他國家去碰到的實際的情形是那您知道說現在國內排碳大戶前十大戶有哪一些嗎有當然這個有相關的清單包括中鋼、台積電、中油、台塑等等水泥廠等等"},{"start":11812.211,"end":11836.021,"text":"最大的排電大戶最大的產業是哪個產業知道嗎?石化產業是最大電力跟燃相關的供應燃氣供應業電力跟燃氣供應業排炭大戶前十大包括台電那我們現在反而"},{"start":11836.943,"end":11864.899,"text":"您自己也講了排碳是減碳是大家的顯學但是我們現在反而背道而馳啊2025年我們反而要增加排碳的比例百分之八十以上是火力發電您怎麼看百分之八十火力發電是火力發電有天然氣跟煤會不會有一點點自相矛盾那這個在短期之內我們是低碳所以增加天然氣的時候可以減煤是現在是增碳啊"},{"start":11866.042,"end":11885.174,"text":"現在是增加排碳。我們增加天然氣,我們增加天然氣,那天然氣的碳排是每的一半。是增加所有能源配比的排碳。沒有,我們所有能源配比,這是為什麼我們積極要增加再生能源,就是希望能夠更多的再生能源。部長這不好笑,其實這不是一個好笑的議題啊,因為你講的,現在減碳是顯學。"},{"start":11886.154,"end":11915.254,"text":"但是我們的台電反而是背道而馳。」那最近也有這個媒體去訪問合作聯合科技董事長童志賢他有提到他說過去他是反核人士但是十年內關注氣候、地球軟化的議題陷入軟化跟反核的掙扎這兩年慢慢想清楚說地球軟化才是人類的公敵核能不是核能可能是綠能的盟友而非敵人你認同這句話嗎"},{"start":11916.395,"end":11942.097,"text":"我認為大家的意見我們都尊重所以尊重是怎麼樣?我們都尊重大家的意見對於他這樣講說核能可能是綠能的盟友你覺得這句話有講不對嗎?地球暖化是人類的公敵核能不是這句話你覺得有不對嗎?他提到軟化的重要性"},{"start":11943.829,"end":11962.748,"text":"轉化的嚴重性不是重要性,暖化的嚴重性是是是他這個要去重視是所以後本席只是請教你這邊有講到說因為今天早上也有一些委員開記者會有做這個核能的研議的一個倡議那你有提到是說要全民共識是不是"},{"start":11963.633,"end":11976.834,"text":"我想核能在臺灣就是一個最大的問題就是社會的共識是非常重要的社會重視當然重要那我請教2018年公投通過以核養綠這算不算是全民共識"},{"start":11977.827,"end":11980.108,"text":"當時是多數的一個見解沒有錯當時是多數嗎沒有錯嗎那之後經濟部有因為這樣子多數而去參考這樣子一個做法而去採用以和養綠嗎"},{"start":11997.583,"end":12011.77,"text":"其實你講所謂的全民共識根本也是一個幌子啊當時即便是通過了公投經濟部也沒有因為這樣子來去採用所以說你現在講說全民共識其實根本也沒有尊重過全民的意思啊"},{"start":12012.833,"end":12033.351,"text":"本席在這四分鐘啦部長你也已經要卸任但本席在這四分鐘我只是拿你自己的話拿你的邏輯來去請教過去到現在這兩三年的時間到底民進黨政府到底經濟部到底是我們的能源政策有沒有因此而被導致有沒有邏輯矛盾確實是有"},{"start":12034.639,"end":12062.391,"text":"我們沒有不支持臺電臺電第一線的基層人員非常辛苦本席的地區有山區有海邊有都市區我們常常也都跟臺電的人員在一起所以要比支持臺電基層工作人員我們比誰都支持但是如果錯誤的能源政策不改變的話只會累死基層公務人員謝謝好謝謝黃孟楷委員接下來我們請黃捷委員發言"},{"start":12071.271,"end":12074.252,"text":"負責經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預"},{"start":12099.579,"end":12126.956,"text":"有一個問題就是在去年這個屏東民洋大火造成四位的消防員殉職之後當然這是非常遺憾的消息所以我們各部會都在想說到底要怎麼改善才可以避免憾事發生那其實這個民洋大火大家也找出最關鍵的兩個原因一個就是因為民洋沒有如實的申報危險的物品另外一個就是民洋沒有在第一時間提供正確的圖資這兩個原因是非常非常關鍵的"},{"start":12128.422,"end":12130.623,"text":"一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21案"},{"start":12144.712,"end":12163.39,"text":"火場的第一線的時候可以馬上用這個化學雲的工廠快報的功能瞭解場區經由你們各部會的申報的系統讓他們知道說現場申報的不只是化學品的種類數量平面配置圖這些資訊都要有因為這個資訊權是非常非常重要的"},{"start":12164.111,"end":12185.733,"text":"所以接下來這個平面的配置圖到底格式有沒有一致化就非常重要但是我就看到說在我們經濟部公告的工廠危險物品的申報辦法裡面有一個平面配置圖的範例你們的公告的格式跟我們現在大家用的是完全不一樣"},{"start":12187.295,"end":12201.216,"text":"來給你看一下這個是現在我們消防署應該要有的就是GHS裡面的九大危險公告的物品在這裡都一定要寫出來可是看一下你們經濟部的配置圖完全沒有"},{"start":12202.287,"end":12229.472,"text":"也就是說你們經濟部提供的公告的格式沒有辦法在第一線讓消防員來參考我覺得這個問題蠻嚴重雖然這對你們來說是一個小小的疏漏但是對於火場的一線人員這樣的資訊越完整越一致所有的東西都借機好對他們來說才是最大的幫助喔那我看到你們這個格式啊其實你們上一次調整已經是十幾年前了"},{"start":12230.481,"end":12256.21,"text":"是這樣子嗎?如果是的話,你們這十幾年都沒有與時俱進,把基本該公告的九大類的危險物品來跟大家說明。所以請教一下部長,我們現在的這個基本的資訊到底出了什麼問題?好,委員簡單兩點來做說明。第一個部分是我們的一些機械撇測的部分。不好意思,請問你是哪一位?我是工商輔導中心的主任尹瑞隆。"},{"start":12258.318,"end":12271.015,"text":"兩點說明,第一個我們在機械配置圖的部分我們是在上次民洋大火之後上次那個憑證的那個是憑證的大火就是巨棚大火之後"},{"start":12271.977,"end":12294.876,"text":"我們去做修正的所以修正時間是三、四年的時間其實是我們配合上次大火之後去做了一個調整因應這是第一點那第二個部分你剛才有提到的是消防法規裡面的這個卡的部分那JSBS的部分是for消防法的部分所以我們這兩個部分這個資訊都會上傳到化學院去由化學院會去統籌來去做一個運用"},{"start":12295.697,"end":12297.579,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、三條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12315.217,"end":12335.253,"text":"那如果有任何疏漏的話務必一定要確實那最後我講一下說你們現在這個未合格的工廠稽查的狀況因為其實在這個你們上一次民洋大火之後也有成立一個專案小組來來做專案的稽查那完成檢查的加數是737家那合格加數685家也就是說其實還有大概7%的工廠是未合格的"},{"start":12342.159,"end":12357.93,"text":"那接下來這七趴到底要怎麼辦可不可以跟我們說明一下你們接下來後續怎麼輔導追蹤然後讓他盡量達成百分之百的合格因為在不管是百分之一還是任何一家只要再發生一件我們都擔當不起啦"},{"start":12358.77,"end":12382.953,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛所提的那個700多家是我們去年在2400多家的業者裡面我們配合消防單位去做聯合的一個檢查那檢查出來之後確實有7%的業者他不符合規定這些不符合的規定大概有分成兩種樣態第一個他沒有按照期限來申報第二個部分是他的申報不實我們後續都有做主案的列中列案的一個追蹤跟管好以上報告"},{"start":12383.533,"end":12409.485,"text":"好,真的非常重要,我再講一下,因為那個民洋的工廠最嚴重就是他可能私自放了很大量的物品都沒有在他提供的資訊上面所以這個消防員到現場他完全不知道現場這麼危險的化學品這個一定一定要快點去請他們改善好不好?是,我們在各部會就是在做這件事情好,謝謝好,謝謝黃捷委員那主席宣告一下我們中午不休息,延長開會時間接下來請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":12418.962,"end":12441.772,"text":"主席有請部長。部長請問,台灣人是刁民嗎?台灣人是不是刁民?當然不是嘛。華山溪的人就不可以抱怨停電嗎?華山溪人可不可以抱怨停電啊?"},{"start":12442.871,"end":12445.353,"text":"二、審查：一）行政院函請審查：一）工廠管理輔導"},{"start":12470.287,"end":12482.184,"text":"台電之水發那個新聞稿你知道嗎?你看過嗎?華山溪的不能抱怨停電啊你看過嗎?這新聞稿我事先沒有看到你沒看過嗎?你看過會拉出去嗎?"},{"start":12483.894,"end":12504.491,"text":"會不會讓他出去?部長因為這個新聞稿我是沒有看到沒關係啦沒關係啦我跟你講我再向你問下一個問題我知道台電邏輯是什麼啦就經濟部一直在告訴大家你們這些刁民有什麼好抱怨的停電次數比起這個八年期已經少很多了嘛對不對停電次數少很多嘛停電其實改善很多嘛這是你們邏輯嘛對不對是不是部長是是齁好來告訴你齁"},{"start":12509.773,"end":12535.71,"text":"我們來看看今天我們的美花統計學是怎麼算法我想請教那個我們的美花部長大安區4月18號停電772戶在你們停電裡面算停電幾次那要看有沒有超過一分鐘我們是要超過一分鐘超過一分鐘我們就會算一次然後前天我們成功國宅兩撥停電485戶你算幾次超過一分鐘"},{"start":12546.972,"end":12565.941,"text":"二十七戶的成功國宅後來一個小時後又停電了,算幾次?停電一整個下午,也是一次嘛。二十七戶算一次嘛。七百七十二戶算一次嘛。四百八十五戶算一次嘛。我想請教您2017年815停電影響多少戶?停了多少戶?"},{"start":12567.516,"end":12588.562,"text":"八一五確實是比較大面積的停電。停了592萬戶!算幾次?算幾次?那個就是那個大事故。就算一次嘛!懂了吧各位!懂美化統計學嘛!為什麼今天停電改善好棒棒啊!2021年513事件影響多少戶?多少戶停電?"},{"start":12590.523,"end":12599.489,"text":"確實是比較大462萬戶也算一次517停電影響100萬戶也算一次2022年303停電549萬戶也算一次你們的統計學非常棒27戶停電算一次然後呢500萬停電也算一次我要再跟請問部長"},{"start":12615.27,"end":12634.048,"text":"真正民眾感受到是說每年我到底停了幾分鐘比較精確嘛對不對停了多少次嘛每戶每年每戶停了多少次嘛那我跟你講台電數字喔我直接跟大家念出來給大家聽到底有沒有改善2016年號就正常輪替前啦停電每戶停電的時間幾分鐘部長16分鐘沒錯吧"},{"start":12640.523,"end":12644.284,"text":"三零三的五百四十九萬戶,算進去五百四十九萬戶停電是高達九十一分鐘,沒錯吧,台電的資料吧?"},{"start":12666.388,"end":12671.711,"text":"加起來是106分鐘啦!我告訴你106分鐘比起2016年的16分鐘是6.6倍啦!台電好棒棒啦!認知作戰統計學啦!拿這個東西騙人!還可以去酸台灣人民是刁民!你們統計學真的非常棒啦!以上!"},{"start":12694.298,"end":12720.859,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、二十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十五、四十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十"},{"start":12727.674,"end":12727.934,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12739.226,"end":12767.096,"text":"好沒關係部長我們先開始討論這樣節省會議的時間這個今天要討論的是這個工輔法的一個修正對不對當然工輔法是時間很長然後大家也針對各個法條去提出讓這個法案越加完善比如說這一次有講違反危險物品的申報義務的處罰條款的增列工廠這個加保僱主意外責任險它其實是逐步讓工廠管理輔導法事件完善但是本期今天要提一個"},{"start":12769.498,"end":12784.115,"text":"這個應該是經濟部我覺得應該早就要開始的一個案子就是有關於倉儲的管理啊這個部長我們的倉儲應該也算是經濟產業的一環對不對倉儲如果是物流業那物流業也是一環是"},{"start":12785.947,"end":12787.209,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12801.107,"end":12801.928,"text":"二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12824.831,"end":12849.603,"text":"這個危險的物品有多少量以上也都要申報,也都要管理,那這個就歸地方政府應該要去查查,等等的。」這個喔,我們都希望就是說不管你是修功夫法也好,或是其他都是希望避免這個降低災損嘛,避免它造成經濟上的一些影響。不過部長如果你有留意啊,就是這個產業最害怕的其實就是火災嘛,除了停電之外啦,停電很多人問過你了,我今天就不問你啦齁。就怕火災嘛對不對。那火災的時候這幾次,"},{"start":12851.424,"end":12875.219,"text":"大型火災上全國關注的包含美孚倉儲、PC Home領口倉庫及家樂福其實都是倉儲。難道他不應該被特案的來做檢討嗎?部長知不知道倉儲的火災佔各種火災發生的比例大概有多少?這個我倒沒有特別去統計過。你們相關的負責單位要不要救援一下?你們有研究這件事嗎?沒有特別統計。"},{"start":12878.059,"end":12894.297,"text":"這個都有地方的消防單位在做統計是啊按照這個110年的消防統計年報當然住宅的火災比例當然是最高的然後這是營業場所這是因為數量母體數量的關係但是部長看一下作業場所也就是一般大家認知的所謂的工廠在這個"},{"start":12898.28,"end":12921.294,"text":"總計411場火災,倉庫371件。」那這個不管是六都或非六都你都看得出來其實啊這個火災裡面倉庫佔總體大概我們講排除住宅排除商業啊也就是大家講的這個製造業的這一塊裡面來講其實倉庫火災的數量大概就佔40%接近一半的比例啊那部長這難道我們不應該特別針對這個地方去做一個檢討嗎?欸"},{"start":12923.877,"end":12929.901,"text":"我覺得這個部分我們在跨部會的時候而且也確實像委員講桃園發生了幾件那我我這個部分我再請我們的同仁跟消防署跟地方政府我們看對這個倉儲的這個部分因為他確實裡面會燜燒的問題那怎麼樣做更好的管理這個我來跟幾個單位來一起討論因為這個倉儲因為本身堆放大量的貨物他有活宅量"},{"start":12949.475,"end":12966.045,"text":"這火災量就是單位面積可燃物完全燃燒釋放出來熱能其實就是火災量越高其實就是基本上就易燃嘛也難處理所以比工廠還高而且不只高一點點高四到五倍啊所以如果今天都願意基於工夫法修正基於危險物品的申報大家要日漸完善的話"},{"start":12966.505,"end":12990.51,"text":"那我覺得倉儲的相關的管理規範也不能置外於這樣子的法案修正啦那按照過去的這政府裡面這個有提到倉儲兩個字比如說農藥運輸倉儲在法條裡面只是它規範的是農藥不是倉儲對不對相關的都是一些類似這樣子的一個概念所以這個自由貿易港區也是一樣肥料土地都是講倉儲是法條裡面的文字從來沒有針對整個倉儲業"},{"start":12992.31,"end":13011.537,"text":"遇到的產業困境遇到的消防法規危險物申報等等沒有一個統一的規範這我覺得是不對的啦因為按照災損比例來講他其實幾乎是跟工廠是一樣的他的風險是比工廠還高的所以我希望經濟部在這邊趕快來做個研討啦針對這你們當然講他跨部會也需要中央地方來積極協力合作但是我覺得這個這個這個項目要獨立出來被討論有專門的法律來做規定針對環保針對這個消防"},{"start":13020.14,"end":13022.301,"text":"恐怕才是對這個業界建立秩序比較積極的做法啦。」"},{"start":13050.4,"end":13073.208,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、"},{"start":13080.488,"end":13099.029,"text":"因為現場人數不足,我們先暫緩。好,那我們現在繼續進行討論事項第二案的審查工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案,現在進行廣泛討論,廣泛討論沒有人登記發言,那我們請議事人員宣讀所有條文,若有修正動議及附帶決議請一併宣讀,宣讀完畢之後再進行協商,請宣讀。"},{"start":13103.351,"end":13118.064,"text":"法行政院提案第二十八條之十四,工廠有下列情形之一者由主管機關處工廠負責人新台幣五萬元以上五百萬元以下罰還,並令其獻其改善或申報,藉其為改善或申報者得按次處罰,"},{"start":13119.065,"end":13133.499,"text":"一、違反第21條第一項規定為依期限申報危險物品。二、違反第21條第二項所定辦法中有關申報內容、申報期限之規定或申報不實。第三十一條,工廠有下列情形之一者"},{"start":13134.66,"end":13157.826,"text":"主管機關應令其限其改善補辦或申報,藉其為改善補辦或申報者處工廠負責人新台幣一萬元以上、五萬元以下罰還,能不遵行者得按次處罰,依利用其場地或建築物之一部或全部從事物品製造加工以外業務,但從事與所製造產品相關之業務者不在此限。」"},{"start":13158.466,"end":13178.675,"text":"二、違反第十六條第三項規定並跟產業類別為重新辦理工廠設立許可或增進而從事物品之製造或加工三、違反第十七條第一項第一款規定所附加之負擔四、違反第十七條第一項第三款公告之減量生產或停止生產規定"},{"start":13180.115,"end":13198.649,"text":"五、違反第十八條第一項規定為申報或提供有關資料或規避妨礙拒絕調查。六、違反第十八條第三項規定為依期限提出申報或規避妨礙拒絕調查。七、違反第23條第一項規定為按月申報其原料儲存量"},{"start":13199.977,"end":13220.064,"text":"法違反第一、第二十三條第二項所定辦法中有關申報內容之規定 本法自公佈日施行本法中華民國108年7月24日修正公佈之條文及全年全日修正之條文,其施行日期由行政院定之。"},{"start":13221.204,"end":13248.17,"text":"委員黃捷等17人提案第二十八條之十四、工廠有下列情形之一者由主管機關處工廠負責人新台幣十萬元以上五百萬元以下罰還並令其獻其改善或申報。藉其為改善或申報者得按次處罰第一款及第二款同行政院提案條文第三十一條第一項第一款至第四款同行政院提案條文"},{"start":13248.715,"end":13254.694,"text":"第五款及第六款、同行政院提案條文第七款及第八款、第三十一條之一"},{"start":13256.107,"end":13284.191,"text":"工廠有下列情形之一者由主管機關處工廠負責人新台幣五萬元以上十萬元以下罰還能不遵行者得按次處罰一違反第十八條第一項規定為申報或提供有關資料或規避妨礙拒絕調查二違反第十八條第三項規定為依期限提出申報或規避妨礙拒絕調查第三十九條同行政院提案條文"},{"start":13284.946,"end":13307.175,"text":"委員黃建斌等17人提案。第28條之十四,工廠有下列情形之一者由主管機關處工廠負責人新台幣十萬元以上、五百萬元以下罰還,並令其獻其改善或申報,藉其為改善或申報者得按次連續處罰。第一款及第二款同行政院提案條文"},{"start":13307.95,"end":13334.799,"text":"第三十一條工廠有下列情形之一者主管機關應令其限期改善、補辦或申報。藉其為改善、補辦或申報者處工廠負責人新台幣三萬元以上、十萬元以下罰還。人不遵行者的案次連續處罰。第一款至第八款同行政院提案條文。第三十九條第一項同行政院提案條文。第二項"},{"start":13336.223,"end":13346.016,"text":"本法中華民國一百零八年六月二十七日修正之條文及全年全月全日修正之條文,其施行日期由行政院定之。」"},{"start":13347.099,"end":13365.444,"text":"委員林思敏等23人提案。第22條工廠製造加工或使用危險物品達管質量以上者除應投保公共意外責任保險且須依公共意外責任保險最低保險金額規定投保僱主意外責任險"},{"start":13366.664,"end":13394.76,"text":"但已依其他法令規定投保公共意外責任保險者不在此限。前項公共意外責任保險之最低保險金額及投保辦法由中央主管機關會商中央保險主管機關定之第二十九條製造加工或使用危險物品打滾質量以上之工廠違反第二十二條第一項規定為投保公共意外責任保險與雇主意外責任嫌者"},{"start":13395.56,"end":13421.941,"text":"處工廠負責人新台幣30萬元以上、150萬元以下罰還,並令其限期改善,藉其不遵行者,得按次連續處罰。」委員王美惠等18人提案。第三十一條工廠有下列情形之一者,處工廠負責人新台幣10萬元以上、500萬元以下罰還,主管機關並得令其限期改善、補辦或申報。"},{"start":13423.591,"end":13430.032,"text":"借其仍不遵行者得案次連續處罰第一款至第三款同行政院提案條文"},{"start":13430.834,"end":13458.084,"text":"第四款違反依第十七條第一項第三款公告之減產減量規定,第五款及第六款同行政院提案條文,第七款違反第21條第一項規定為依期限申報危險物品,第八款違反依第21條第二項所定辦法中有關申報內容之規定,第九款違反第23條第一項規定為按月申報其原料儲存量,"},{"start":13458.871,"end":13486.666,"text":"第十款違反一、第二十三條第二項所定辦法中有關申報內容之規定。委員邱益穎等16人提案。第三十一條,工廠有下列情形之一者,處工廠負責人新台幣五萬元以上、五百萬元以下罰還,面得令其限期改善補辦或申報。藉其仍不遵行者,得按次連續處罰。第一款至第十款同委員王美惠等人提案。"},{"start":13487.711,"end":13499.672,"text":"委員蔡宜宇等二十人提案,第二十八條之十四同行政院提案條文,第三十一條同行政院提案條文,第三十九條同行政院提案條文,"},{"start":13500.799,"end":13522.371,"text":"委員馬文鈞等十八人提案,第28條之十四,工廠有下列情形之一者由主管機關處工廠負責人新台幣五萬元以上、五百萬元以下罰還,並令其獻期改善或申報,藉其為改善或申報者得案次連續處罰,第一款及第二款同行政院提案條文。"},{"start":13523.157,"end":13544.02,"text":"第三十一條,工廠有下列情形之一者,主管機關應令其限期改善補辦或申報,藉其為改善補辦或申報者處工廠負責人新台幣一萬元以上、五萬元以下罰還,能不遵行者,得按次連續處罰。第一款至第八款同行政院提案條文。"},{"start":13545.188,"end":13564.595,"text":"委員中嘉賓等17人提案第22條工廠製造加工或使用危險物品打管質量以上者應投保公共意外責任保險及雇主意外責任保險但已依其他法令規定投保公共意外責任保險及雇主意外責任保險者"},{"start":13565.515,"end":13594.789,"text":"不在此限,前向保險之最低保險金額及投保辦法由中央主管機關會商中央保險主管機關定之。第28條之十四同行政院提案條文,第三十一條同行政院提案條文,第三十九條同行政院提案條文,委員楊瓊英等16人提案,第二十八條之十四同行政院提案條文,第三十一條同行政院提案條文,"},{"start":13595.424,"end":13621.572,"text":"第三十九條同行政院提案條文,台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二十八條之十四,工廠有下列情形之一者由主管機關處工廠負責人新台幣十萬元以上、五千萬元以下之罰還,其比例及裁罰基準由中央主管機關令定之,並令其獻其改善或申報,藉其為改善或申報者得按次累進連續處罰。"},{"start":13623.325,"end":13650.113,"text":"第一款及第二款同行政院提案條文,第三十一條,工廠有下列情形之一者,主管機關應令其限期改善、補辦或申報,藉其為改善、補辦或申報者,處工廠負責人薪台幣三萬元以上,該場所年營業額一定比例以下之罰還,其比例及裁罰金額由中央主管機關令定之,能不遵行者得按次累計連續處罰。"},{"start":13651.943,"end":13678.3,"text":"第一款至第八款同行政院提案條文,第三十九條第一項同行政院提案條文,第二項本法中華民國一百零八年六月二十七日修正之條文及全年全月全日修正之條文,其施行日期由行政院以命令定之。」委員鄭天才等人所提修正動議。第28條之十四,工廠有下列情形之一者,"},{"start":13679.246,"end":13697.194,"text":"由主管機關依其種類管制量處工廠負責人新台幣五萬元以上五百萬元以下罰還並令其獻其改善或申報藉其為改善或申報者得案次處罰第一款及第二款同行政院提案條文宣讀完畢"},{"start":13707.635,"end":13721.484,"text":"我們現在有中交兵委員陳冠廷委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報那我們現在開始來處理預算解凍案請問第一案各位委員有無異議好那我們就通過第二案請問各位委員有無異議主席有異議"},{"start":13725.697,"end":13728.22,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":13741.816,"end":13759.648,"text":"第三十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案的全篇解論報告第20頁及21頁,針對法人科專、業界科專及學界科專的部分,曾經寫的也很傻傻。不過我看了整個解論報告裡面,這三個部分所帶動三年帶動的投資金額還有研發成果高達2510億,這是怎麼計算出來的?"},{"start":13762.91,"end":13786.104,"text":"那是不是有跟其他行政機關的效益有重疊?那麼這三項科專的三年的大概的總預算大概是多少錢?可以請經濟部的說明。以上。你們經濟部的同仁有沒有去跟委員說明啊?沒有。正常來講這個我們應該是你們早就都應該說明完了,我們今天就走完程序而已耶。"},{"start":13787.028,"end":13799.923,"text":"我先hold住你們經濟部同仁先去跟政委員說明好不好來那我們先處理第二案請問有異議沒有我們就通過第三案請問有異議有異議"},{"start":13803.818,"end":13826.818,"text":"同樣都沒有來做過說明所以主席我這邊可以補充一下因為之前報告實際上解凍案一到第一案到第十七案其實因為也都沒有來報告過所以本期可以稍微做一個補充就是針對第一案那個投資促進師還有第三、第四案都是投資促進師的然後第二案資訊處的還有第五案、第六案產業發展署的"},{"start":13828.639,"end":13842.495,"text":"然後第十三案、第十五案商業發展署的還有第十六案的產業園區管理局第十七案的地質調查及礦業管理中心可不可以之後都因為這個報告事項已經過了"},{"start":13844.017,"end":13868.32,"text":"正委員跟您說明一下第一案第十七案是書面報告送達所以應該是都在您的辦公室他們不用再特地再去跟您報告了可能那個書面報告在您辦公室可能要請您回去看一下但我們已經通過了我們就不回頭來處理這些案子了那這邊的補充要就是請這些單位再到本辦公室來進一步做一些補充好那您今天有沒有同意讓這四個案解凍然後請他們再去跟您說明好不好"},{"start":13870.742,"end":13872.824,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":13893.12,"end":13905.497,"text":"那那個主席宣告一下跟法案無相關的這個列席官員可以先行離開好那我們現在開始進行協商先看功夫法第二十二條的條文"},{"start":13911.92,"end":13914.381,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案 案"},{"start":13934.966,"end":13953.215,"text":"目前經過立法院三讀通過的法令的這相關法令裡面都沒有去訂定僱主意外責任險這是第一個部分第二個部分我們在跨部會協調的過程裡面也協調了勞動部那勞動部這邊也表示說有關有個叫做災保法"},{"start":13953.815,"end":13970.497,"text":"在保法的部分在一百一十一年已經有修法通過,已經大幅度的提高有關勞工在投保的這些相關的保障的部分,所以我們基於這兩點的一個意見,不建議有關這個僱主意外責任險納入公府法。以上報告。"},{"start":13971.831,"end":13995.868,"text":"來請問各位委員有沒有要發言的還是沒有意見我們就按照現行條文行政院那個楊瓊英委員剛剛說明了你說剛剛說明說麥克風有沒有開麥克風來換一支好不好來有有有"},{"start":13996.943,"end":13999.024,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14012.702,"end":14040.295,"text":"是我跟委員報告一下齁其實災保法裡面的這些項目是相當的多元的部分第一個部分是叫做投保薪資原來之前的舊法是大概四萬五千八百元後來在新法的時候已經大幅度提高到七千兩百八十元那另外一個來講是在七萬七萬兩千八百元那另外來講還有投保的部分有些新的制度包括有醫療給付傷病給付私人年金"},{"start":14040.835,"end":14062.401,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 及其相關補貼的部分,這些費用其實遠比在111年的時候都有大幅度的一個提高。當然當然他是一定一定會提高嘛。本席所提問的是說這個委員所提的這個方向跟你現在所說的災保法"},{"start":14063.001,"end":14078.872,"text":"他從他這個這個有在修的增加的內容那不符合目前我們所需要的本席是要請問這個如果沒有制定在這裡也要制定在旁邊我們是結果論去推敲嘛是夠不夠本席要請教你這個"},{"start":14079.352,"end":14080.312,"text":"負責認證的部分是一種商業保險,商業保險就是視業主自己的需求再去投把,"},{"start":14096.539,"end":14114.199,"text":"那這樣子就可以橫平線去看每個產業。你講到這個就是我要問的喔所以你也要告訴雖然沒有利益在這裡但是我們要結果論也就是說勞動部那邊應該也可以去推廣你雇主還要怎麼樣保護自己也保護勞工嘛你沒有人推廣他不會去做的啦絕對不會去做的啦"},{"start":14116.522,"end":14142.404,"text":"在協調的過程裏面我們也找了金管會來那金管會也是認為說這種是屬於商業保險他們本來就本來就在做宣導對啦本身已經跟你討論到後面的作為嘛當然他是自主性但是我們政府可以去鼓勵之嘛宣導之嘛好不好好來請問各位委員那如果沒有意見我們是不是就照原條文好謝謝來接下來我們請看第28條之14"},{"start":14148.117,"end":14175.49,"text":"二十八條之十四我們在原來的對照表以外我們還有那個鄭天才委員的修正動議我們也就一併討論那二十八條之十四大部分大概我們都是以那個委員的鄭天才委員是有再多加幾個字就跟那個行政院的版本不太一樣就是依其種類管制量處工廠負責人"},{"start":14177.278,"end":14200.283,"text":"法環 。」那請問各位就是那個長髮索還是雲處長要先說明我還是感謝委員提案的一個內容那第一個我先跟委員報告就是說按照目前工廠管理輔導法第二十一條的規定裡面就是"},{"start":14200.603,"end":14229.85,"text":"就一些危險品第二項的規定裡面就做一些的範圍、種類、管制量跟申報的方式就要主管機關去訂定之。那有關你所提的這個種類跟它的這些範圍來講其實我們本來就已經含括在我們的裡面來講再來就是說有關一些要處理一些違規的樣態那違規的樣態的種類是相當多所以我們是覺得維持現有的條文就已經足可以應付目前可以發生的這樣的一個處理的事情以上報告"},{"start":14230.51,"end":14244.053,"text":"這個我稍微問一下我早上一次去有提到啦如果我們把一些原先的這些德勒令停業的部分停業跟復工這個我們把它加入到這裡來做更強一個規定的部分經濟部的看法呢"},{"start":14245.097,"end":14272.28,"text":"跟委員報告,這個部分本來在我們工福法第21條的規定裡面的第三項就已經有規定,那我稍微稍微念一下,21條第三項有提到工廠製造加工危險物品本來就要善盡安全跟管理的責任,如果發生重大的環境污染,重大的一個公安影響到附近的工廠跟民眾安全,直轄市縣市政府也就是我們的地方政府本來就可以勒令他停工,"},{"start":14272.72,"end":14280.397,"text":"那現在目前的這個法令之前都有用過之前在六清發生大火的時候雲林縣政府就有利用這樣的法規去做執行"},{"start":14283.886,"end":14286.088,"text":"我們先請楊全英文接下來是張琦凱委員"},{"start":14316.374,"end":14344.813,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案件事項。此案件確實是一個申報上的一個缺失。那確實過去在從公服法99年施行到現在的過程裡面,只有名揚著這個事故造成的傷亡,而且造成的事故的層面是最大,過去幾乎都沒有發生過。所以這個也是凸顯到有些工廠他在管理危險物品上面的一個不周詳。所以才讓我們這一次確實要把我們的這個裁罰比例提高到一百倍,將來重視這樣的法規。"},{"start":14346.554,"end":14371.228,"text":"那其實這樣的法規其實我們已經就我們剛才所提到我們已經廣泛要去辦理21場的說明會讓全國的業者都要了解這樣的一個聲報的一個重要性而且也讓地方政府能夠掌握我們工廠的一個危險品才能夠去準備相關的一個救災跟應變跟防災的一個部分二十一場是嗎?什麼時候要開始辦?"},{"start":14372.961,"end":14374.102,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14390.197,"end":14418.217,"text":"那個對象是什麼?謝謝,因為這一個條文...近期就會舉辦,近期就會舉辦。詳細的時間我剛才跟...就如趙偉所講...詳細時間我是不是請那個...對,好,請你們再給各位委員...好,來,請張祺凱委員,下一位是鄭天才委員。謝謝,因為這個條文很重要,攸關人命關天,非常重要。而且以前經驗非常的慘痛,所以我把金額調高到最高要到五千萬的罰款,"},{"start":14419.358,"end":14424.999,"text":"凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案"},{"start":14450.243,"end":14463.315,"text":"我再重複一次拿掉原來的倒數第三行的一業者的這個營業比例這個計算然後約束工廠的申報這拿掉改成暗刺累進聯繫處罰就可以了在說明欄好謝謝"},{"start":14465.234,"end":14487.767,"text":"本院委員報告其實委員應該對產業非常清楚因為在彰化縣就有擔任過工策會的這個總幹事對彰化的這個中小企業是相當了解的那我必須要說明一下就是說這個法所對應的業者其實也是非常多都是中小企業所以我們在訂法的過程裡面確實要去橫平它的一些樣態還有工廠的一些形式所以我們才會比較建議說"},{"start":14489.007,"end":14516.364,"text":"就剛才所講的我們訂的額度已經增加為一百倍就是從原來一萬到五萬變成五萬到五百萬的一個層次那另外來講我們也是非常委員所提到的把一些營業額的部分考慮到這營業額的部分去把它拿掉這個也是確實是需要的因為我們知道我們的工廠他是要有個事業主體所以可能同一家公司會有好幾家工廠這樣子會讓我們在計算這個營業的時候在第一線的縣市政府就會出現問題所以這個確實在拿掉上面來講"},{"start":14518.405,"end":14543.974,"text":"是有助於後續地方政府的一個執法的。」以上說明。好,來接下來請曾天才委員。抱歉抱歉,我看大部分的委員的提案都是寫500吧,是不是?上限是500。他們是1到100。所以您如果是……5000太高是不是?不是不是,您如果是10萬的話,你的100就是1000。OK。等一下我們到那個金額的時候再來回頭來討論好不好?OKOK,那那個連續法,抱歉抱歉,那個累進連續法這個要留著喔,好不好?"},{"start":14548.215,"end":14564.055,"text":"我先請鄭天才委員發言因為跟委員報告我們本來那個就我們本來那個就是給案次連續處罰所以其實機制上跟委員的提案內容是相當一致的不好意思以前案次常常都是沒有累進吧我現在是很明確就是說你罰了以後你不改進"},{"start":14564.716,"end":14588.489,"text":"我下次我就要加上去一直加上去累進上去很明確要求要累進我跟委員報告就是說其實我們在一些定一些裁罰基準的時候本來就會考慮到他的違規樣態是不是累犯這個都會去考慮那我是可不可以請委員讓我們授權我們在後續在執行面上面的時候再去處理這些這些問題那另外一個剛才來講我必須跟委員澄清一點委員其實已經有看掉"},{"start":14588.969,"end":14610.861,"text":"我們這個因為是工廠管理輔導法法的對象是工廠負責人其實工廠負責人不定是等於企業負責人所以這個法的可能是廠長所以如果你真的法給他金額很大他不知道怎麼生活都有可能是一個這樣的一個問題所以這個要這樣的一個說明那個案次跟累進的部分我是不是請法務法務法務有沒有法務在不在"},{"start":14618.548,"end":14638.881,"text":"來,趕快啊!那請您說明啊!來,來,請說明。不好意思。案資跟累計呢,通常我們這邊不會有什麼意見,只要主管機關他在立法說明裡面有特殊的考量,解釋清楚這不會有什麼問題。然後集聚的部分之前我們也...喔,是。"},{"start":14641.656,"end":14657.914,"text":"法務部的這樣解釋有點概念上模糊,有累進這兩個字是不是代表第二次處罰的要比第一次還要重?就是有累進這兩個字跟沒有累進這兩個字到底差在哪裡,這個法務部是不是要說明?"},{"start":14665.237,"end":14666.197,"text":"財法基準 財法基準 財法基準 財法基準"},{"start":14694.888,"end":14712.881,"text":"曾經有犯過,那如果有犯過,這個對他的處罰就會加重。那我們這個裁法基準也會在這個法之後也會把它定出來。那以上做一個補充。好,來這樣了解。來那個鄭天才委員。鄭天才委員發言完之後我們就停止討論。那個楊瓊英委員發言完之後我們就停止討論了。好,謝謝。"},{"start":14722.413,"end":14747.914,"text":"剛才這個經濟部的說明明洋不是只有明洋啊如果按照你們今天的報告我只選的時候有提到嘛這個你們很很詳細的去清查了之後光光是張斌產業延期就有145家沒有申報"},{"start":14749.454,"end":14777.695,"text":"然後草報有65家要補申報這很多這是好運好運沒有發生事情所以那個觀念要先釐清所以用詞也很重要好就是因為用詞很重要所以因為這次的處罰修正這次的修正就成為你剛說的提高100倍五萬跟"},{"start":14778.513,"end":14806.599,"text":"五百萬這個差距倍數很大在這樣的情形之下主管機關不同的承辦人不同的什麼到底五萬還是十萬還是一百萬根據什麼本來如果本來啊最標準的立法是要定一個授權的你剛提的那個工廠管理法二十一條那個不是跟這個沒有關係"},{"start":14808.007,"end":14819.294,"text":"我剛看了21條工廠管理輔導法21條他是在你的料你要申報你要申報哪些哪些那如何處罰"},{"start":14821.311,"end":14829.139,"text":"凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等22項管理輔導凍結案等21項管理輔導凍結案等21項管理輔導"},{"start":14845.68,"end":14848.483,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14866.726,"end":14886.038,"text":"市長,討論到現在,大家的概念都越來越集中。我個人還是認為,我同意剛剛那個部長所說的,就是你們自己在事宜細則當中去定。但是呢,因為這個五萬到五百萬,它總是有個亂取,我也贊成是以暗刺。"},{"start":14886.718,"end":14908.232,"text":"那這個案次也包括在這個五到五百萬的這個論舉當中你們怎麼樣再細心細則去定定他的自由新政到底要多少那但是我強調一點就是說不是以他的總額數字為最主要因素而是他的行為他的行為反而是比他的數數字還更重要"},{"start":14909.229,"end":14914.172,"text":"凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結"},{"start":14935.384,"end":14938.185,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":14947.332,"end":14949.113,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責"},{"start":14969.125,"end":14997.734,"text":"我看起來大概就是張祺凱委員就是臺灣民眾黨的是十萬到五千萬其他各個委員的大部分都是跟行政院的提案是一樣的那我剛有特別跟張委員說明就是說他們的裁判是一到一百所以您如果是以十萬做基底的話你的上限是一千萬那如果是回到我們原來剛剛提的包括行政院的版本跟其他各委員的版本是五到五百萬"},{"start":14998.995,"end":15001.969,"text":"我想這個大概是比較大的公約數我不曉得張委員您"},{"start":15004.137,"end":15029.792,"text":"我可以尊重董事委員的意見,看什麼找一個比較折中子好不好好那我們就按照這個行政院委呃行政院的版本通過好不好就是5到500萬那這個是可以按次按次裁罰那這個裁罰的基準就交由那個經濟部去訂定整個這個施行的細則好不好好謝謝來接下來我們就接下來是第29條"},{"start":15032.838,"end":15036.247,"text":"有林思明委員有一個第29條的條文"},{"start":15039.875,"end":15061.886,"text":"本院委員報告就是說我們剛才已經有討論第29條僱主意外責任險22條已經僱主意外責任險沒有訂定的話那29條的這樣的一個罰款的一個調整就沒有需要了是我們22條沒有處理沒有修訂的話那我們第29條就不處理了好謝謝那接下來請看第31條主席"},{"start":15067.312,"end":15070.554,"text":"來,那個王美惠委員主席,在這裡主席,在這裡感謝我們今天的教委可以擺這個工廠法,跟我有相伴,我覺得本席是因為考量這個情節的情況不一樣,工廠的規範也不一樣,所以我們必要啦,看看喔,提高本來是"},{"start":15094.286,"end":15100.333,"text":"一萬之五萬．我是提供五萬之五百萬．以下會發放因為我認為若沒有寒期會改善的事我認為應該是要到那個時間要繼續人又發衣服"},{"start":15115.796,"end":15142.137,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會提案的部分是全面把31條違規的所有的樣態都調高。那這裡我要跟委員報告就是這個影響層面更大。因為31條的這些違規樣態,它有幾種樣態。第一種是說他可能忘記他沒有來補辦登記,或者是他沒有來辦理工廠的一些變更。其實這個都是很小很小的一些違規樣態。或者是說他在做工廠的時候,他的廠房"},{"start":15142.858,"end":15167.591,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案件的確不準確,並沒有準確的範圍內要去多增加的一個面積去做製造架工。所以這些東西在一般的違規案件來講是非常的輕微的。那我們是希望說這一次的修法能夠是focus在危險物品的部分,讓我們去重視這個名揚案件之後,社會各界應該去重視危險物品的一個聲炮,這樣也能夠讓地方政府在消防救災上面可以更加的完備。"},{"start":15170.287,"end":15174.49,"text":"因為我認為我們會討論的就是民營工廠,我們說實在,想過你說有的工廠是說還沒一個月收回去,但是它裡面的東西凍的,在我們的標準值,低三十倍啦。所以在這裡我覺得你們要去詳細去監督、去注意跟地方配合啦。"},{"start":15194.96,"end":15201.483,"text":"因為說實在,這個我們不容許再發生這個事情啊。議長來請教一下吼,第三十一條跟第二十八條就是剛剛討論的這個處罰規定那他如果已經處罰了法人的話那對工廠負責人還會同時處罰嗎?還是說只處罰一個就不會處罰第二個?"},{"start":15224.936,"end":15227.247,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":15230.182,"end":15254.383,"text":"第三十一條是針對負責人嗎?那二十八條之十四也是負責人嗎?這兩個是不同的法規因為我們這次修法已經把原來在功福法三十一條第七款跟第八款的部分我們把它獨立拉出來到二十八條之十四然後再把裁法的那個法額提高那對法人有罰則嗎?因為我們功福法針對的對象就是工廠負責人"},{"start":15260.094,"end":15280.194,"text":"來 請問各位 美惠委員你有沒有堅持沒有的話我們就照行政院的版本好不好因為目前看起來各個委員的提案都是跟行政院的版本一致啦那我覺得可能在那個他們的那個裁法的事情裁法的那個細則裡面我們也授權他們去更詳細的"},{"start":15282.619,"end":15286.702,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算"},{"start":15305.066,"end":15306.188,"text":"三十一條之一是黃捷委員的版本,請行政院說明。"},{"start":15323.563,"end":15343.682,"text":"凍結委員的提案的部分其實我們也有事先跟黃捷委員辦公室先做溝通這第一點那第二個部分委員所提到的是希望說針對有一些工廠是不是規避檢查的部分來提高法則的部分那經過我們的調查最近五年來其實我們跟地方政府的了解並沒有工廠有"},{"start":15345.724,"end":15366.5,"text":"拒絕行政單位去做檢查的,所以我們是建議說既然也沒有發生過,我們覺得說這個法條再去修正的必要性應該是相當有限的。以上說明。好,那我們是不是大家同意第31條之一,我們就不予修正。同意。是啦。"},{"start":15368.627,"end":15372.949,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十九條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":15397.797,"end":15418.184,"text":"來,那我們請宣讀協商結論。宣讀協商結論。第22條不予處理,維持現行法條文。第二十八條之十四,照行政院提案及委員提案與行政院提案內容相同通過。第二十九條不予處理,維持現行法條文。"},{"start":15418.684,"end":15433.267,"text":"第三十一條照行政院提案及委員提案與行政院版本相同提案通過第三十一條之一不予處理維持現行法條文第三十九條照行政院提案及委員提案相同版本通過宣讀完畢"},{"start":15436.875,"end":15438.777,"text":"討論事項所列工廠管理輔導法條…"},{"start":15452.335,"end":15481.025,"text":"可以照綱的行政院的版本過,可是在執法的在那個﹖這個我們在執法有訂定那我跟委員報告一下你剛才你之前那個修法我們確實是有認真去看的那其實你所訂的部分是在23條的一些所謂的再利用就是利用這些廢棄物的這些原料來做再利用其實這個我們的管制是相當嚴謹全國大概只有20家工廠每個月都在﹖人家就不是在問你這個人家在問你"},{"start":15482.806,"end":15483.307,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查"},{"start":15495.982,"end":15503.189,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案 審查完畢。禮具審查報告提報院會討論,請問需不需要交由黨團協商?"},{"start":15519.292,"end":15523.778,"text":"條文相關的法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理。本日議程處理已完畢。散會。謝謝大家。」"},{"start":15535.748,"end":15539.652,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":15568.76,"end":15583.597,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案 案。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}