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d":521.922,"text":"另外,為了嚇阻並嚴懲非法僱用或非法媒介、修正救福法非法僱用及媒介行為、每項裁法提高以每人計算、非法媒介罰款提交三倍並加重刑責．針對人身侵害及判決有罪．"},{"start":522.342,"end":537.913,"text":"管制期間提高至5年．再犯者永久管制．且未來將檢討僑外生評點制．適時取消上限與國防外等研議．建立僑外生個人工作許可．納入《欄材專法》或《就業服務法規範》以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":545.529,"end":567.44,"text":"有關本日會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時提案10點30分截止收案"},{"start":572.322,"end":575.908,"text":"現在請登記第一位委員陳昭之委員發言。謝謝主席。有請部長。請許部長。"},{"start":588.943,"end":595.008,"text":"陳委員好部長早部長之前我在質詢這個印度移工議題的時候我有提到就是說這是一個很好的機會可以採取政府對政府、國對國的一個執聘制度當時你也覺得說會這樣做而且您自己也提到說因為一個全新的來源國我們如果從一開始就來談會是比較容易的否則像現在的這個其他的來源國因為執聘制度做得很差其實是不到1%"},{"start":618.766,"end":639.852,"text":"所以大家都習慣透過仲介那林淑芬委員也提到這是一個契機就是說導正過去錯誤的政策建立所謂的印度模式那採取國對國執聘那最重要是要弱化這個私人仲介的角色而且避免這個巧立名目對移工做剝削那當時部長也表示認同"},{"start":641.132,"end":668.279,"text":"那部長您當時在委員會的這個回應跟態度會讓委員或是勞工團體以為我們印度移工就要採取國對國的職聘但是部長我們看一下這個4月3號公佈的MOU第8條老實說我們看了有一點傻眼這第8條除現有招募制度外現有招募制度外 雙方同意推動執行計畫縮短流程、簡化文件設立單一窗口及選工制度那部長這個和現行的政策"},{"start":669.099,"end":675.309,"text":"沒有什麼不同啊。第一句的現有招募制度意思是仍然允許透過私人仲介引進嗎?"},{"start":678.356,"end":705.106,"text":"報告委員因為當初在談這個招募的部分因為現在我們其實就是雙軌雙軌 多元那這一次也繼續雙軌嗎這一次基本上也是會有雙軌的一個選擇但是我跟委員報告我們是希望能夠在殖民方面以這個為主要的談判主要的談判因為其實我們現在在推動殖民上很多是因為來源國"},{"start":706.627,"end":712.949,"text":"但是雙軌制到目前是非常的失敗你知道雙軌就是仲介跟私人仲介跟這個職聘職聘比率不到1%雙軌是這樣子吧你像我記得是像越南還有印尼他們來源國那邊對這個部分是消極的"},{"start":736.034,"end":756.817,"text":"所以這個不是說我們做不好而是來源國他不願意配合那我在這個印度方面我是希望這是我優先的議題就我希望來優先談國與國之間能夠執聘我們希望印度這邊能夠同意不要像其他國家他不太願意來"},{"start":757.518,"end":763.885,"text":"拜託委員我的態度是很清楚的我是希望國與國但是現在的MOU的內容你覺得是國對國的關係嗎現在的MOU我們看到的報告委因為所有的這個"},{"start":777.116,"end":798.539,"text":"各國的這個引進,他們其實在架構上都是會有比較多元的方式但是我們在後續的工作層級會議,報告委員這是MOU,MOU就是一個備忘錄一個大方向原則但是後續的工作層級會議那才是重點所以報告委員我是要跟您說明一個態度就是說"},{"start":799.7,"end":822.923,"text":"我是我們這個部分用列為優先談判的我瞭解但是我們來看看真正的這個所謂的國對國執聘這是韓國大家都瞭解韓國的執聘還得過聯合國的這個公共服務首獎他有幾個特點第一個由政府設立行政法人並在海外設立分處辦選這個辦理選工跟那個技能測驗的一些等等部長我們現在執聘中心是行政機關嗎"},{"start":824.656,"end":851.691,"text":"不是嘛,他是一個是外包嘛,外包給廠商嘛對,他不是行政局執行中心也沒有在海外設點嘛沒有在海外設點辦理這個選工跟訓練移工的這個做法嘛那第二個引入韓國的這個移工他需要進行這個語言能力跟技能的測驗那作為人力工團他們的這個名稱的參考那我國引進的勞工移工事實上沒有做這些"},{"start":852.671,"end":868.79,"text":"這是測驗嘛這是第二個第三個他移工入境後他是由這個人力工團去接機那移工就訓這個培訓完成之後他們就把他送到這個工作場所那我們的職聘中心有接機服務嗎他有送移工到這個他的工作場所嗎"},{"start":871.324,"end":897.972,"text":"我這樣說明因為韓國他其實他已經以後是比我們晚所以他一開始他們就沒有所謂的私人仲介的問題他就是當時候他就是採他們國家辦職聘所以他就是這樣的一個政策所以他去談的時候當然萊恩國願意跟他來合作就會這樣但是我們會參考所以我跟委員報告像我們現在針對家庭看護過那個一站式服務"},{"start":898.932,"end":907.235,"text":"就是參考韓國的。我們包括我們的一戰士服務去接機。家事移工啦。那個事業移工是這個產業移工是現在沒有。因為我們事先事辦從家庭看護工開始。事辦很久了耶。"},{"start":914.358,"end":935.139,"text":"沒有沒有沒有一年一年多而已喔我們去年在我們去年一月才正式上路部長是說要往這個方向做還有那個韓國還有人力工程還追蹤移工的工作狀況這個這個大家現在全世界各國在關關心勞動權益他會去了解他的適應狀況等等所以我們我我基本上我不怪執病中心因為目前是外包廠商嘛"},{"start":935.76,"end":956.785,"text":"他們就是根據勞動部提出的合約需求去執行。那左邊這張圖是我去取得的勞動部委託執辦中心的計畫需求書。那你們對廠商的工作要求這個幾乎都只是代收、代轉文件,因為我會有畫紅線的地方。也就是勞動部一開始定位這個執聘中心其實只是一個收發中心。"},{"start":957.125,"end":984.771,"text":"我知道上次您不在同意但是我們有看到這些文字那我們並沒有賦予執聘中心這些任務包括這個選工技能測驗語言測驗以及關係移工的適應狀況那這個標案一年就七千多萬但是它的規模只有二十幾個員工嘛那人數可能比仲介公司還要少那勞工如果有心勞動部如果有心要做那這二十幾個人他沒有辦法負擔這麼龐大的業務啊你二十人怎麼服務七十幾萬人"},{"start":986.192,"end":989.762,"text":"所以是不是部長您認為要成立一個行政法人的這樣的一個機構來處理職聘的問題?"},{"start":994.051,"end":1020.591,"text":"這樣子報告委員因為我們的職聘是讓我們的僱主多一個選擇因為在台灣的現在的狀況僱主他有他個人的考量對那我職聘跟委員報告職聘當然我要做我一定會把它做好讓他易於來使用所以我們也不斷在精進那就是說這個方向我們現在還看不到嘛但是大概期許是往這個方向走是是我們會持續來精進"},{"start":1022.212,"end":1041.877,"text":"那部長我再跟您談一下這個護理師勞動問題我在3月10日的質詢上也有跟您談到這個護理師加班費的質詢我不曉得部長還有沒有印象是但是部長您說有加班事實就要有加班費而且不滿意小部分要照比例給我上面有寫我們的這個詢答的內容而且每年都會針對這個超過這個過往違規紀錄不良的這個失業機構勞動單位來進行專案的這個檢查"},{"start":1048.919,"end":1078.479,"text":"部長就是說當時我們的對話是這樣嗎您確認一下那但是我要告訴您是上個月19號20幾位護理師到台南市政府抗議因為陳大院長期人力不足這些護理師被迫加班禁慾職者不好拒絕但是院方卻為依規定給他們加班費那有25名護理師他反映他的勞工超時工作他們嘗試自救而且自己擬定加班願書結果就被上級主管怎麼樣把人調走了也就是說那個"},{"start":1079.199,"end":1079.74,"text":"臺南市勞工局出來說"},{"start":1095.011,"end":1095.471,"text":"可以公然說謊嗎?可以公然說謊嗎?"},{"start":1114.495,"end":1140.191,"text":"我們這個是兩個月公布一次但是護理室去申訴了再看一下這個罰則去年成大院沒給加班費發髮服務被罰一萬延長工時沒有給這個工資被罰五萬沒記載勞工出行行刑到分中被罰兩萬看到這個罰款的金額部長成大院他不是第一次違反勞基法而且這個我想說的是他是累犯2017、2019"},{"start":1142.552,"end":1157.607,"text":"國立大學醫院、副社醫院這樣子可以重新發落嗎?他們應該做表率、做典範啊。我們要財量基準啊。我們有財量基準,他如果一再犯他是會加重的。結果就是罰兩萬啊。他是累犯罰兩萬罰最低的罰則。所以我覺得這樣不合理啊。部長您覺得合理嗎?"},{"start":1167.317,"end":1183.508,"text":"當然若是壘犯的話就是要加重啦。我最後結論就是說勞動部跟地方主管機構要多站在勞工的權益去執法。我們一定會站在勞工的立場。但是針對這個個案的部分沒關係我們會跟地方勞政機關在"},{"start":1188.592,"end":1190.453,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭斯委員發言接下來請林月晴委員發言"},{"start":1223.82,"end":1233.678,"text":"主席好。有請我們的勞動部部長跟我們的勞動發展署的蔡署長。請蔡署長。林委員好。"},{"start":1235.104,"end":1255.71,"text":"部長早,那因為根據媒體的消息是下週要召開印度移工的諮詢會議要討論行業名額跟方式那是不是想問的因為前幾天大眾政僱主團體來向本席陳情表示對我們的對象"},{"start":1256.71,"end":1274.313,"text":"也就是我們的拼顧人力穩定來源他們有一點擔心就是請問社福類的移工特別是家庭看護工那會不會列入你們這次的項目當中開放的業別報告委員我們開放的業別會早"},{"start":1275.639,"end":1296.425,"text":"相關的部會來納入討論因為這些業別他有各有他的目的事業主管機關像這些看護人員這些就是屬於衛福部那他會不會納入我們到時候就是會找他們來討論包括諮詢這一次第二次的諮詢會我沒有邀請我們相關的部會針對開放的業別開放的人數"},{"start":1299.386,"end":1313.685,"text":"還有引進的方式我們都會來大家來討論希望就是把他們的需求去做考量因為他們事實上是一個專門要去照顧重症好的一些家庭可能要去考量那接下來想"},{"start":1315.087,"end":1342.185,"text":"部長知道這樣子的一個公式嗎就是本來按照生權法裡邊事實上希望保障生權者的一個就業權益在38條跟43條就有規定生長者的一個聘僱僱用跟行政貸金這項規定本意是希望促進生長者就業而且推動同時推動事業單位能夠去改善他的工作環境來聘供"},{"start":1342.665,"end":1344.165,"text":"相對的事上會變成什麼呢"},{"start":1369.232,"end":1393.464,"text":"會變成上主管人他大概只要看不順眼就把人趕走了然後另外一個是有時候這些人事實上是他不是在事業單位工作反而是規避掉很多的問題點比如說事業單位要改善我們的他的整個環境不需要改善那身上者單獨在這工作只領最低的基本薪資所有的福利都沒有"},{"start":1394.244,"end":1421.381,"text":"所以這公司像仲介、身障者幫他做事出錢的是另外一家公司是事業單位那上有沒有乍領我們的身障者就業基金不確定那再來身障者再次的會跟社會隔絕本來事實上是要去融合兼教育單位就普特融合都達到96%可是你竟然把身障者是區隔掉的那我不知道勞動部有沒有掌握這樣子"},{"start":1421.961,"end":1439.07,"text":"因為他大剌剌的在就業市場當中丟出來來讓大家來使用他這樣的一個管理公司他是代管可是呢所有人都在他這邊上班幫事業單位工作可是實際上有時候連無障礙廁所都沒有所以我不知道部長知不知道這種狀況"},{"start":1440.271,"end":1462.617,"text":"報告委如果像您剛剛這樣的所提的這樣是違反我們生權法的規範完全不符合這個所要求的所以你怎麼去認定有沒有違法甚至有沒有依法去輔導或是處罰報告委因為這個個案的情形我是不是可以請業務單位跟委員這邊來了解我們進一步來了解然後看應該做怎麼樣一個處理"},{"start":1463.891,"end":1486.114,"text":"好,是不是一個禮拜後讓我了解這整個狀況?委員你那邊有些資訊給我們我會請同仁去跟委員這邊辦公室來了解然後我們來進行所以為什麼就業服務法要大修?連這樣子的狀況都可以規避到生權法跟你就業服務的一些要件基本上是法律沒有問題是有心者"},{"start":1486.374,"end":1486.654,"text":"但是﹖"},{"start":1513.059,"end":1531.649,"text":"這個改革看到我們過去的就服法裡邊看到什麼外國人聘僱跟管理的比重大於就業服務本來這個就服法是要促進國人的就業可是在34條到83條這麼高的比重幾乎都在講外國人聘僱跟管理比較多"},{"start":1532.009,"end":1557.343,"text":"比重佔到三分之二這樣的比重到底我們這救福法是要促進我們國人就業尤其我很關心的青年就業幾乎都沒有在這邊反而事實上是大力去促成我們外國人這不應該是拉出來做專法去討論嗎怎麼會是合併在你這邊而且佔了三分之二強的一個比重那這個救福法到底是去滿足我們外國人聘僱還是事實上要促進我們國人就業"},{"start":1558.724,"end":1584.086,"text":"那連相關的辦法基本上也是三分之二反而是對於國內勞工的就業服務反而談得比較少連你今天的報告也是這樣因為今天的報告比重上也看起來非常偏頗的幾乎大概兩頁談到我們國內的就業要未來怎麼提振可是有三頁都在續名是我們的外國的整個聘僱要怎麼去做"},{"start":1584.326,"end":1586.047,"text":"但是這部分好像做得很少所以我也想問的是以這樣子來看部長知不知道"},{"start":1605.979,"end":1616.949,"text":"在我們的地方政府在人的聘僱率上會不會因為你的比重上落差而人的聘用也是有落差的?"},{"start":1620.131,"end":1645.692,"text":"就人員的配置上有沒有影響那我你現在講不會齁可能也沒有很有把握齁所以是不是可以也讓我知道一下各地方政府的聘僱到底有沒有落差你有這樣的質疑啊我是跟你回答說不會啦但是當然你有質疑我們必須把數據齁提供給委員來了解 是不是提供出來齁博哲有時候如果你今天不是在地方政府去促進我們"},{"start":1647.074,"end":1653.42,"text":"國內的人的就業反而事實上大量把它著力在我們的外國的聘僱我覺得不太適宜"},{"start":1654.178,"end":1679.424,"text":"那就業服務法歷年修正的次數都是單休一些那你認為這些我剛剛已經提過就是說這樣的修正裡面幾乎都是以外國人拼顧我不知道部長是不是覺得合理嗎就是整個你比較比重上比較都是以外國人拼顧跟管理為主這幾次的修正都是以因為可能"},{"start":1681.212,"end":1683.393,"text":"為什麼不是我們自己國內的就業的提振呢?"},{"start":1695.235,"end":1721.254,"text":"國內就業提振我們是很多的用計劃方案去推動因為法是一個大原則政府常跟我講要依法行事如果法裡面沒有定的話通常不會依法行事反而會變成我們國內的就業事實上會呈現比較不穩定的狀態反而你大量的思考的事實上是外國聘僱的管理的模式報告委員其實我們很多法"},{"start":1722.254,"end":1738.836,"text":"他會授權一些執法訂定計劃或相關的方案去推動執行面我們都是訂定計劃去推動因為用計劃的話比較容易去滾動性的修正對可是部長我們看基本上都是在法的大架構下去推動都是依法行政"},{"start":1739.397,"end":1755.048,"text":"你去看原來的我們的就業服務法規定的就業服務本頁做好了嗎?我認為沒有為什麼?因為民間就業服務機構等於同於我們的移工聘僱所專屬的代辦單位對國人求職的服務轉向數位的人力銀行像11104"},{"start":1757.129,"end":1785.864,"text":"這樣子的一個方式而就業服務難道只有一工聘僱嗎或網路上的人力銀行當下我們的公立就業服務中心這些服務機構所提供的職業訓練跟就業諮詢跟我們的職業心理測驗和我們受委任的招募這些資源用使用率都非常非常的低有沒有去檢討這些單位甚至連職業推薦這項業務都效果都不如預期所以失利的更不用講了"},{"start":1786.664,"end":1809.874,"text":"所以在這樣的狀況底下我不知道就是說我們還有辦法去有能力去做嗎?像我剛剛講的青年就業促進還避免職業傷害跟協助我們的障礙者中高齡及高齡者的這些就業的職業工具的使用目前我真的很少看到青年對青年這一塊因為這些越來越加重的需求我覺得勞動部應該去因應"},{"start":1811.175,"end":1834.549,"text":"報告委員 這個部分我跟委員報告 我們這幾年推動的包括在重視在疫情之間 我們今年的失業都降到歷來最低 是 那部長是不是因為時間關係再請你把相關的 因為我真的連今天報告我都看不出來 因為你的比重上真的就很失衡了 那最後大概就是希望你在於這一塊是不是可以去做"},{"start":1835.69,"end":1836.871,"text":"謝謝林月琴委員的發言接下來請王育明委員發言"},{"start":1868.237,"end":1872.64,"text":"好謝謝主席我們是不是請呃許部長請許部長部長好部長你在勞動部已經幾年了掌管勞動部"},{"start":1883.425,"end":1907.71,"text":"報告委員6年快兩個月也算是在任非常久的部長那我不太知道為什麼這一次在閣員的異動當中你也是女性的閣員現在其實缺乏女性的閣員基本上你留任其實是讓資深的部長可以繼續帶領勞動部但是這一次換了一個其實完全沒有背景的原來的副秘書長何佩珊來擔任勞動部部長"},{"start":1910.911,"end":1930.96,"text":"那你覺得這樣的一個人事的更換會讓勞動部帶領得更好嗎?報告委員因為這個人事權當然在走隔壁啦齁那但是我要說明一下其實我跟佩珊不算陌生齁我擔任勞動部長以後其實我們在公務上有很多的所以你認為他很時任會做得比你好會嗎?"},{"start":1932,"end":1949.956,"text":"我對他有信心,因為我覺得他對勞動政策不陌生而且我在跟他討論過程中那之前在這個一例一休修法的時候他其實是搭配當時的行政院院長賴清德是勞基法修二讓勞工團體非常反彈"},{"start":1951.311,"end":1969.667,"text":"那這個你知道嗎?那段我是沒有參與,我不曉得你沒有參與嗎?所以本席讓你了解光是這一段他要跟勞工團體的溝通我想要花更多時間大家現在在質疑的是他將來的在勞工政策的立場是會站在勞動部的立場、站在勞工的立場還是站在資方的立場?"},{"start":1970.727,"end":1972.169,"text":"接下來本期要問的是有關於這個花蓮觀光業受創非常嚴重"},{"start":1989.528,"end":2009.215,"text":"這個問題看起來是越來越嚴重目前看到的前陣子的報導呢就是有一些這個旅館他是直接歇業了而且大量解雇目前大概有將近300個人已經是無班可上但不只這樣最近看起來這個因為不是0403的地震0423再震了"},{"start":2010.675,"end":2032.692,"text":"所以變成是這個旅館業他們說他們現在住宿率只剩下5%然後東大門夜市根本沒有人去那這樣的一個慘況事業人數可能還要再攀升無薪假人數可能也會增加目前為止勞動部有掌握到花蓮強震之後他們現在勞工在當地的一個情況嗎"},{"start":2034.203,"end":2048.308,"text":"報告委員,我們因為我們當地有我們的就業的服務中心。好,你們掌握到是什麼情況?目前那個我們現在人數有沒有比本席現在講的這個更多?"},{"start":2051.067,"end":2071.459,"text":"現在...無薪假人數有多少?無薪假...無薪假沒有增加...無薪假沒有...現在只有一家三人...對...就是...無薪假...就是減班休息了...對...這邊...就一家...然後三個人...通報減班休息...那...解僱呢?解僱喔...之前解僱40家..."},{"start":2073.921,"end":2100.1,"text":"202人大量解雇兩家123就是委員您講的這個部分目前為止你們掌握到的是300人這是什麼時候的數據昨天昨天最新的數據我們每天都是會有更新那面對花蓮這樣的一個情況之前本席就說你們應該要有一個專案來協助花蓮因為他短期其實我看是復甦不了了那所以這一些廣大的勞工靠這一些旅遊業"},{"start":2100.981,"end":2116.357,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":2116.707,"end":2144.506,"text":"委員我們其實跟委員報告我們因為這個大地震我們目前就委員您執行以後我們有啟動七大的措施來協助我們花蓮受災的這些事業單位跟勞工好那我希望你們強化另外一個本席要關注的是災區的這一些工人的安全因為現在為了災後的重建所以有一些其實是要搶工那甚至我們看到這個公文內政部他還說這個"},{"start":2147.427,"end":2171.623,"text":"應該避免不必要的鑑定手續及試驗他是為了這個搶救的這個效率喔但是另外一方面本席擔心的就是為了搶快的過程當中勞工的風險就是有沒有去適度的提醒像今天早上又連山震喔就是花蓮那個地方如果你是要做這個災後搶救工作相關的工人其實那個的安全真的要特別注意要不然可能會受到二次的傷害"},{"start":2172.103,"end":2192.696,"text":"謝謝委員提醒其實我們在04、03那一天除了發布零工措施另外就是公安的部分當天也同時提醒這些事業單位要注意你種子倒塌以後你要復工怎麼樣你都要先預先瞭解風險評估之後你才能入場這一點本性會強化"},{"start":2194.198,"end":2205.132,"text":"對 這一點本席要求因為現在花蓮有幾棟其實也是圍樓或是家裡面它有一些其實是危險的那有些搶修的工人可能為了搶快大家也希望盡快復原但是我覺得安全還是要幫他顧好不好這個是非常重要的"},{"start":2209.037,"end":2231.782,"text":"另外一點就有關於勞檢人力的部分現在中央有一些在勞檢人力的部分你在原額的分配上面看起來是不太均的在六都裡面其實是不太均的那另外一個是你們現在有一些業務其實是開始去下放給地方擴大授權那以台中市來講"},{"start":2233.202,"end":2260.98,"text":"這個我知道從去年開始你們就開始有一些勞檢的範圍就授權給台中市政府但是同時你們勞檢的原額其實並沒有上升那這樣會變成是業務量加大但是人員沒有增加那這個部分你們要怎麼樣去處理報告委員其實那個原額部分這些人力我們主要是補助市場上面也可以擴編啊我知道但重要的補助很重要地方財政其實都很辛苦啊"},{"start":2261.51,"end":2262.71,"text":"好,一個是原額,一個是現在其實他們的流動率是高的"},{"start":2289.855,"end":2305.46,"text":"就是因為業務量大大家每一下出現什麼公安狀況就是說要增加勞檢次數那勞檢員的福利跟薪資待遇如果沒有同時去做一些修正其實現在就本席知道的他們其實有的員額還不見得補得足啊"},{"start":2305.68,"end":2327.326,"text":"就現有的因為不見得補得足那就是一個惡性循環就是說福利待遇不好案件量又大然後又補不足所以基本你是不是應該要去改善他們的一些相關的福利薪資待遇再做一個通盤的檢討可以報告委員我們其實這個問題我都有在請業務單位做一些盤點事實上去年我就先幫他們爭取那個風險風險那個工作的加急"},{"start":2332.307,"end":2357.636,"text":"是這個部分有就是五千、兩千這個已經三千、五千對不起三千、五千這個已經通過了是4月1號正式上路就是你從事高風險的這些檢查工作每個月你可以多領五千塊或三千塊好這一塊我希望你要持續這些勞檢員是你們的分身是他們都前進到第一線然後去查看實際執行的情況是不是有違規但是如果連勞檢員都過勞他的"},{"start":2360.217,"end":2383.117,"text":"主要的這些福利都沒有被照顧好那我覺得你將來這些實質的勞檢的能量是會下降的所以這一塊我希望中央可以去看到他現在流動率高的原因他必要的這些福利條件應該要給予改善那這樣子才可以讓我們的勞檢員就是不要流動力那麼高然後還有再增加大家會願意進來那這樣你整個的"},{"start":2383.917,"end":2384.057,"text":"稍後再討論。"},{"start":2416.06,"end":2419.625,"text":"謝謝王育明委員發言接下來請陳金輝委員發言主席我想請部長請許部長各位官員早安"},{"start":2432.902,"end":2451.197,"text":"陳委員早部長上禮拜有一個蠻嚴重的新聞就是在東營區這個營區發現說海軍陸戰隊有66位非法的逃逸的移工嘛對然後他們已經去了三次移民署去了三次都撲空"},{"start":2452.378,"end":2478.197,"text":"表示他們其實是有線民在通報啦但第4次有發現有6位失聯的逃逸的移工那這個移工的管理我想除了移民署有責任勞動部也有責任所以像這樣子的狀況你們有想要再去追查源頭嗎因為這個承包公司他一定有許許多個工程報告委我們一定會追查這些那個查獲的非法"},{"start":2478.917,"end":2479.518,"text":"但是還沒開始"},{"start":2494.354,"end":2518.616,"text":"這個移工的查緝,桃圍移工的查緝是營運署,我們也是一起配合,這是一個國安團隊在處理但是勞動力發展署的工作到底哪些企業有僱用非法移工還有你們網上追查像這些公務機關的標案都是很公開的所以對你們而言去追查同一家這個承包商他是不是還有其他的工程這應該是很容易的吧對,這個應該是可以"},{"start":2521.988,"end":2524.77,"text":"好,因為這也是很危害我們國安的問題嘛好,下一個我們來看一下"},{"start":2553.61,"end":2572.937,"text":"這個失聯移工現在還有涉入詐騙的問題居然他在離境前他每一本這個帳戶可以標到40萬所以部長你會知道說這幾年我們失聯移工或者是移工涉刑案的人數有多少然後哪一類的犯罪在成長嗎?"},{"start":2574.716,"end":2598.452,"text":"報告委員其實整體這移工不管是合法或失聯的他其實他的犯罪率還是比我們國人低是但是他在攀升你知道嗎這個大概他攀升大部分都是酒駕最多這個我們會加強宣導就是請移工要珍惜工作機因為這種一旦殺"},{"start":2603.277,"end":2617.393,"text":"這邊我幫你找出來了因為詐騙隨著科技的發達全世界都是不斷的攀升嘛所以我們查到的這個外籍人頭賬戶的人數就不斷在成長那我們看一下右邊這個表比較清楚"},{"start":2618.234,"end":2639.465,"text":"一公社刑事案件的件數我們把最大規模的找出來最大規模就是剛部長提到的公共危險罪再來就是詐欺罪也就是詐騙相關的他們有的時候是加害人有時候是被害人但光是從110年到112年他是三倍的成長"},{"start":2640.586,"end":2665.683,"text":"所以最近當然大家都一直在探討移工問題我們也許缺工所以我們必須要引進可是像這樣子不管是失聯、逃逸或者是刑事案件增加或是介入新的犯罪集團像詐騙這樣的事情如果我們沒有辦法因應而且有好的解決方案的話大家也會擔心我們是不是可以再迎接更多的移工來台"},{"start":2667.449,"end":2682.351,"text":"其實這個就是最近移工的帳戶變成被一個一個犯罪的工具這個問題是行政院打詐的這個小組我們那個小組已經跨部委有討論過了包括比如說我們針對"},{"start":2683.773,"end":2695.848,"text":"離境的或者失聯的我們會提供帳戶的這些資料給這個金管會讓他們來有最近有討論有有有有金融機構他就會做注意就是說這些帳戶如果異常的資金進來就會去注意是不是有"},{"start":2701.195,"end":2728.492,"text":"但是從移工端你有沒有想到要去宣導?我要做宣導啊,報告員我們會宣導這個部分對,這個上次我們也有討論過他們的在台工作需職嘛是關於他的賬戶啊等等的這裡面只有提到說你一定要透過合法的管道匯錢回到家鄉或是你一定要保管好自己的證件但是對於剛提到的詐騙等等你們這個"},{"start":2730.493,"end":2730.853,"text":"直本我們會再印製"},{"start":2759.994,"end":2774.78,"text":"下一個議題當然是更令人難過啦但是許許多多的像台劇有一個叫八尺門的辯護人他裡面就有一個情節是寫到說這個外籍移工他被僱主塞小費然後撫摸了屁股臀部"},{"start":2776.141,"end":2791.375,"text":"從性騷擾最後可能演變成性侵害這也是許多媒體他們會報導的他去訪問可能有性侵害的受害人這個移工他就講到說一開始也是一樣跟這個劇情一樣"},{"start":2792.516,"end":2815.95,"text":"試探性的去播放一些色情的影片﹖或者是問一下他有沒有結婚﹖要不要嫁給他﹖以及口頭的吃豆腐﹖到最後呢就更嚴重的性侵害、性暴力等等好當然檢察官會問受害者說欸你怎麼前面沒有說他說前面當然僱主就說你如果敢說出去的話我就會把你送回去"},{"start":2816.75,"end":2840.531,"text":"所以我們雖然2023年就通過了新平三法的修法也努力在做性別平權可是連勞動部你們內部發布的統計光是台灣一般接到性騷擾這是你發布的官方數據有九成的人其實是不敢說的只有一成的人他會出來訴苦或是報案"},{"start":2842.048,"end":2865.158,"text":"移工的生活環境比我們一般人還要隱暗所以像這樣子家事的移工他就是跟他們日夜相處在一起更容易遇到這樣子的問題那當然我們也很不希望這樣子的故事會讓國外對我們有更不好的印象畢竟我們是一個人權立國的國家嘛那這邊我來整理一下齁"},{"start":2866.993,"end":2892.041,"text":"10年左右呢這個外籍性侵統計的案件加起來就有將近800件好比較難過的是透過1955來受理的3年這5年內大概是199可是衛福部的數字是362表示什麼呢外籍移工沒有把你勞動部1955當成有力的靠山馬"},{"start":2892.921,"end":2909.207,"text":"他會跟你聯絡關於他的性侵害、性騷擾這裏面還沒有統計到性騷擾這裏面只有統計性侵害喔所以他主動是打給警察或是打給其他的單位但是他沒有覺得跟勞動部講會有用欸"},{"start":2913.796,"end":2933.624,"text":"其實報委我們其實都透過多元的宣傳管道告訴移工說你只要有受到任何不法侵害或騷擾1955就是你的第一時間你馬上可以求救的而且他只要一打進來我們一定會立案查處那其實我們這邊的受理的數據件數的統計"},{"start":2936.685,"end":2963.977,"text":"包括性騷擾其他的各種不法的招數不法其他通通都有不過這個部分我們還是會再加強我知道但是上次我們也有討論啦最後有一些他們是合意的解雇但這些其實都是黑數所以我覺得你可以去跟其他部門討論一下為什麼他們是遇到性騷擾或是性騷擾反而是通知勞動部以外的人比較多因為這個數字的落差還蠻大的"},{"start":2966.739,"end":2984.759,"text":"好,那再來呢我們講到印度移工您簽署的MOU裡面有提到有一個直接解聘計劃也就是直接聘僱計劃這就是您之前跟我一起討論的職聘中心嗎可是我們已經講過了不管是"},{"start":2985.78,"end":3007.332,"text":"我提出來的問題或者是之前法治局也有講你們職聘中心的成效不佳就是包括流程繁瑣啊宣傳不利啊等等所以真正使用的委託率非常的低並且在近幾年沒有什麼增長好所以上次我們3月6號就已經討論過了但是今天4月25、24"},{"start":3009.953,"end":3020.136,"text":"我上網看你們的流程在官網上還是一模一樣完全沒有改變請問你具體有想要如何改善?我們這個其實我們都一直在滾動檢討那維尼提過以後我有要求要全盤包括我最近我們就會開會"},{"start":3033.859,"end":3035.84,"text":"這邊提供您一個建議因為立法院的法治局在"},{"start":3049.065,"end":3068.937,"text":"最近嘛,他有針對職聘中心進行一些研究跟檢討他說勞動部要優化、簡化申請流程還有加強聯繫服務他覺得可以去參考韓國的解聘許可制因為韓國的解聘許可制他整個過程是由政府來資助他們很重視移工嘛對對對所以"},{"start":3071.579,"end":3088.338,"text":"他們幾乎是幫僱主提供total solution全方面的去解決僱主是不需要負擔任何的成本的對不管是時間成本或是金錢成本等等的所以呢他還可以他只要支付移工就業前的訓練費用就可以了"},{"start":3088.698,"end":3111.29,"text":"所以他們的勞動部他把這個當成當地的產業跟企業的重點服務項目也可以避免移工遭受不當的剝削來強迫勞動等等不當的對待這個是本席提供的一個參考他們好的制度我們來參考啦因為韓國的殖民是他們開放比較晚所以他一開始他就走做得很到位"},{"start":3111.63,"end":3112.39,"text":"謝謝陳金輝委員發言接下來請邱政軍委員發言"},{"start":3140.749,"end":3145.835,"text":"主席好,我們請我們的勞動部,我們的許部長。邱委員好。部長好。部長請問你,您作為史上任期最長的勞動部長,那"},{"start":3161.476,"end":3185.013,"text":"當然我很遺憾沒有留任那您上次說到我們最急迫需要推動的重大政策包括勞保年金的改革失聯的移工低薪等問題那我想請問部長520之後對於新任的部長你有什麼看法有沒有什麼期待"},{"start":3186.094,"end":3205.24,"text":"報告委員,其實我在勞動部長任內針對很多的法案跟政策,不管在跟行政院這邊討論或者跟立法院這邊討論,其實我們的現在和未來的核准部長他都有參與,而且在……所以你對他有信心?"},{"start":3205.7,"end":3232.743,"text":"我對他是有信心的他對勞動政策並不陌生而且他會站在勞工的立場來維護勞工的權益所以我對他也期許能夠秉持這樣的一個態度為我們勞方來站出立場這樣子我們勞團印象都停留在我們賴清德現在準總統擔任行政院長任內二度修正勞基法的強勢態度那您認為他上任之後當務之急是什麼"},{"start":3235.7,"end":3260.477,"text":"有沒有必要修補與勞團的這些不同的聲音的意見?我覺得這是很重要的一件事情當然大家可能對他過去的因為角色或職務的關係那有一些可能有一些認為或許不符合大家的期待那我覺得他應該去跟大家做一些面對面的溝通說明您覺得我剛剛提的那些重大的一些政策他會繼續延續嗎?"},{"start":3262.088,"end":3285.897,"text":"我想勞動部的政策我想都會有一貫的這些這個他的這個規劃在那部長會不會因為你離開之後這些都不動了因為這個部分現在都是最迫切的問題我想新的部長上來他也會邀請相關的業務單位主管來瞭解然後也去會去來做一些"},{"start":3286.687,"end":3304.307,"text":"看未來要怎麼來解決,會有他自己的想法。那老保年金,那您看老保年金的改革已經拖了8年當然部長也是認為這是很需要推動的這個業務那麼新的部長會不會真心推動老保年金的改革還是繼續財務的撥補?"},{"start":3307.786,"end":3330.728,"text":"報告委員 我想撥補是一定要持續啦 撥補這個問題 問題是已經拖了8年了改革也一定要去面對 那只是說 這個我一直在說明說 這個其實不是說願意這樣子拖 而是說這個涉及的勞工人數已經達到千萬人 然後包括事業單位60萬人 那這個 各階層的勞工都不同 但是不能說因為這個事情是比較複雜沒錯 但不能因為它複雜"},{"start":3333.47,"end":3355.54,"text":"所以因為是複雜所以要就是說必須大家多去溝通然後去求取最大的共識所以要幾年?要一年、兩年、三年、四年?這個我恐怕沒辦法代替他來回答當然不是喊口號我不希望說我們老百姆年金的改革是用喊口號的方式來拖"},{"start":3358.396,"end":3386.786,"text":"我也希望部長能夠把這樣的一個重要的一個政策繼續的把它交接下去讓他能夠新的部長能夠繼續完成您可以做到嗎?可以那再來請問部長基層農民非常關心的農務移工辦理的進度上次您有跟本席談到施採外展模式由農會代農民提出申請那麼請問一下目前辦理的情形是如何?"},{"start":3389.33,"end":3404.705,"text":"報告委員我這邊手上的資料我們一萬二那這邊農業部已經核准了五千七百人了總共五千七百人對大概有將近一半了我們現在開放一萬二嘛那他現在核准五千七"},{"start":3405.555,"end":3405.975,"text":"為什麼會這麼少?這個實際增加為什麼會這麼緩慢?"},{"start":3430.618,"end":3457.448,"text":"是不是因為我們申請的方式讓我們這些農民覺得不方便沒有沒有沒有因為現在是透過農會或合作社因為農會喔農會是這樣子喔他們意願比較不高啦是農會意願不高而不是農民不高你懂我意思嗎是是農會意願不高對所以因為農會是多一事不如少一事啦是啦所以我覺得部長是不是有必要調整這樣一個政策其實跟委包我也跟農業部這邊部長這邊反映過就是說我們這個政策的終止"},{"start":3461.23,"end":3481.545,"text":"就是為了要照顧我們的農民,對不對?如果你轉嫁到農會,等於農會多了一個業務,所以沒有人要去負擔這個責任,你懂我意思嗎?尤其現在,我們的移工也好,不管是農事移工也好,幾乎都會面臨移工逃跑的問題。"},{"start":3484.797,"end":3497.527,"text":"所以沒有人要去承擔這個責任那是不是我們要再調整一下這個做法讓我們真正需要的農民能夠更方便更便捷能夠爭取到我們的這個農事的移工"},{"start":3498.687,"end":3514.242,"text":"我們再來跟農業部這邊,針對他可能在推動上可能遇到的一些困難或瓶頸,大家再來檢討看看,看怎麼樣讓農民能夠…希望部長針對這個事情能夠多用心一點,好不好?是,好。另外,我們開放印度移工的部分,"},{"start":3515.543,"end":3536.516,"text":"勞動部昨天也透露4月底將召開國內諮詢的會議會邀請我們相關的團體、部會以及台印的學者討論未來開放的行業與名額那現在要開會了請問勞動部預計提報多少名額到會議討論不是,報告委那個名額是各"},{"start":3537.934,"end":3560.059,"text":"各部會他去評估他的需求因為這個我們是負責去跟這個印度這邊來談判但是需求是各個主管單位那我知道除了營造業嘛,製造業還有家事公務他去認為他有多少需求所以這個需求不是我來決定而是各部你會邀請哪些單位來部會啊包括你看內政部"},{"start":3561.139,"end":3562.64,"text":"我們現在服務業沒有開放為什麼沒有開放?"},{"start":3585,"end":3586.461,"text":"目前以國內服務來講,歷來都是國人最"},{"start":3605.632,"end":3626.309,"text":"經常去就業的一個工作,中高齡或者婦女,那我們必須保障他的工作機會。當然知道啦,有很多服務業其實有一些像學校,像學校他們這些交換學生,我們開放外籍學生的部分他們打工,也很多都跑到服務業。"},{"start":3634.514,"end":3642.52,"text":"我們開放印度勞工的政策,外界還有許多疑慮,我想勞動部這邊希望能夠繼續對外說明,讓外界來安心,所以我們這個會議儘早開,好不好?"},{"start":3648.744,"end":3671.949,"text":"我也要能夠實際改善我們國內的缺工的情形。對,我們下個禮拜就要開諮詢會了。那我們也是透過這個社會對話來化解大家的疑慮。因為時間不太夠,我們這個問題就,我再問下一個。就是說,我們國內15到24歲的青年失業率居高不下。相較於其他OECD的國家在疫情期間飆升到15.2%。"},{"start":3674.79,"end":3693.003,"text":"疫情後就大幅降、改善了,降到10%左右。我國去年的、前幾年的失業率幾乎都是到11到或12。那比國內的全體……新年失業率我們沒有這麼高。沒有嗎?沒有沒有。那我們的資料查到是這樣子啊?"},{"start":3695.111,"end":3695.991,"text":"現在目前看到這個狀況是怎麼樣?"},{"start":3725.458,"end":3725.82,"text":"大概2.28啦"},{"start":3727.355,"end":3753.245,"text":"那還有一段距離要...還有,當然要再努力,但是有...報告委員,但是其實我們經歷了三年的疫情欸我們的青年的失業率不但沒有飆高還降低這個其實也是要給勞動部鼓勵一下啦我們真的很努力啦好啦,我也希望說你們馬上第二期要開始對啊能夠更積極的,尤其是我們青年失業的問題啊能夠一定要盡快的來解決這樣好不好?好,謝謝部長,謝謝"},{"start":3755.424,"end":3760.99,"text":"好,謝謝邱委員的發言。下一位我們請黃旭芳委員發言。謝謝主席,我們請部長。有請部長。"},{"start":3773.564,"end":3797.498,"text":"王委員好。部長好。今天好幾位委員都覺得部長是在這個任內,這個勞動部任期最長的一個部長。那我相信部長應該也在這6年多當中應該有很多感想,那也有很多事情是可能在剩下不到一個月時間內可能也沒辦法去完成的。"},{"start":3798.098,"end":3808.672,"text":"那我想請教部長就是說你覺得你在這6年當中一直到現在你還有什麼覺得說很可惜沒有在你任內去把它完成的"},{"start":3809.651,"end":3826.441,"text":"其實報告委員當然就是有關我們廣大勞工退休經濟生活安全的勞保年金改革這個是非常複雜的議題也是一個大工程不過我覺得雖然沒有完成但是我至少做到一點就是撥補我跟委員報告因為從2020開始"},{"start":3828.982,"end":3834.766,"text":"那撥補200億到今年的1200億再加上特別預算我們其實整個撥補金額達到2670億那它的確讓我們整個財務基金的財務"},{"start":3843.243,"end":3843.263,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":3863.029,"end":3863.049,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":3887.122,"end":3902.354,"text":"所以部長會認為在你任內可能比較遺憾的就是這個勞保年金的改革沒辦法在你任內去把它完成嘛那我也希望就是說部長因為你經驗也非常豐富那其實在基層有很多工會也覺得部長"},{"start":3904.375,"end":3919.455,"text":"是一個很貼近民意的一個部長因為部長也時常到地方去請聽這些工會的聲音所以我們也希望就是說部長未來希望你也跟這個新任的這個部長"},{"start":3920.657,"end":3947.5,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":3948.08,"end":3966.885,"text":"這個總部長能夠有．可以很快的來上手。這個報告因為我跟何總部長不僅是公務上的好同事其實這幾年相處也變成好朋友、好姐妹那我想他有任何需要我來提供一些我的經驗的我都非常樂意來跟他協助這個都沒有問題"},{"start":3967.805,"end":3996.061,"text":"好,那部長今天特別提到就是說有關我們這個就業服務法上路超過30年那應該剛剛也有幾位委員覺得說應該要大修了那我針對就是移工的這個議題我想請部長請教部長就是說這個移工的議題在尤其在我們這個勞動部這邊跟印度這邊簽MOU的時候那很多人就很關心就是說新有更"},{"start":3996.801,"end":4022.538,"text":"另外一個國家的這個移工來源國對台灣來講是好的那更多人會希望就是說未來那是不是用這個直接聘僱的這個方式直接聘僱那我也看到就是勞動部也到目前為止你們是有雙軌就是一個是職聘一個是有透過仲介那我看到職聘的這個部分我覺得這個比例真的是太低了"},{"start":4023.999,"end":4045.507,"text":"為什麼職聘的這個比例這麼低?因為當然這是僱主他有時候就是他的選擇當然過去的職聘也有他可能比較不容易使用的這個缺點所以我覺得這個部分當然還有加上主要是有些來源國像越南、印尼他其實對這個部分是消極的他們不希望"},{"start":4046.747,"end":4046.967,"text":"是。是。"},{"start":4062.02,"end":4062.36,"text":"對雙方都好啦。"},{"start":4088.895,"end":4097.611,"text":"對僱主也好對他的移工的保障各方面是不是會更周全?其實我看到就是說我們這個職聘現在目前是雙軌可是為什麼職聘的這個這個"},{"start":4101.926,"end":4130.43,"text":"感覺就是非常不到百分之一嗎不到百分之一那如果是這樣子的話是不是因為你們的流程就是整個流程太繁瑣或者是說如果說業者要來申請的話也不是那麼容易那透過仲介就是有人直接服務嘛那其實我擔心的就是說未來如果說直聘的話那你們需要更多的人力需要更多的人力可是我發現我們很多的公部門"},{"start":4131.611,"end":4151.993,"text":"只要是這一種的可能你們就變成委外就變成委外去經營那這樣委外經營跟後面就是有仲介這樣好像也沒什麼兩樣因為土改又精簡人事你知道嗎但是我們其實現在公務員很辛苦啊事情越做越多啊那你看我們一個移工管理組不到70人"},{"start":4153.885,"end":4153.925,"text":"第二個﹖"},{"start":4174.6,"end":4201.365,"text":"像我們這個移工管理組的人才培養那是要時間的因為我們的移工管理的法令多如牛毛你沒有相當的時間的培養還有實務的操作其實沒有辦法很快上手所以都造成我們人力上會比較困難那像這種職聘你說像我們的現在外國人事務中心職聘那沒有辦法我人就這麼多我沒有委外那你要叫我同仁怎麼做做不來當然我們現在就盡量把它"},{"start":4202.685,"end":4202.805,"text":"你檢證不僅讓"},{"start":4216.782,"end":4245.381,"text":"人民益於使用,你自己也減輕你的負擔所以這個都是我們要精進的方向那我們會持續來檢討我們看到就是說你們目前已經有雙軌制了可是看到這個職聘的這個成效我覺得是真的非常非常的低落啦所以未來如果說這個印度移工過來的話如果說用職聘直接聘僱的這個方式那這個你們所需要的這個人力應該也是更多"},{"start":4246.221,"end":4275.601,"text":"那這個就要拜託委員支持啊當然是支持啊就是說未來當然是全力支持可是就是說你們可能要去考慮就是說你們現在是七十幾個人來管理這些七十五萬的移工那未來如果說直接聘僱的話那這個業務量是更多耶這個業務量更多那你們需要的更多人那當然我也是希望就是說你們能夠把這個一些文書的這個流程"},{"start":4275.981,"end":4276.001,"text":"好 對"},{"start":4298.579,"end":4298.719,"text":"好,謝謝維恩"},{"start":4329.68,"end":4330.02,"text":"圖很好"},{"start":4356.327,"end":4381.446,"text":"許部長,那在4月15日我們在立法院有開了一個記者會就是有關於有兩位肯亞籍的專業表演人士那因為被我們移民署介入調查在今年3月的時候他已經被鑑別為人口販運被害人那這個案子不知道部長知道這個案子嗎?我知道,我們有掌握,我們第一時間就有掌握了"},{"start":4382.106,"end":4398.523,"text":"對,因為這個部分我們是覺得說他當初他是在被引進的時候是以白領、以公視我們專業表演的藝術人才然後後來我們才發現事實上他來到的時候都常常被仲介帶到"},{"start":4399.864,"end":4429.293,"text":"像也帶到台南的某個遊樂場去從事遊樂工作後來也被帶到我們桃園有一個農場去無償做勞動而且甚至還被仲介逼迫然後借錢度日那當然後來這兩個肯亞籍外勞也有打電話投訴到1955然後可是台南市府派員去查去查無不法那不知道針對這一部分部長有沒有什麼看法"},{"start":4431.759,"end":4457.672,"text":"可是看到的是他當初仲介來是以運動藝術專業表演人白領移工可是他來到卻是做我們藍領的工作而且跟他的工作其實根本是不符合的他就是從事許可以外的工作"},{"start":4458.452,"end":4470.363,"text":"對從事許可以外工作這是違法的對後來我們才發現居然這個百里移工他這個表演藝術人居然沒有最低工資的保障是不是這樣"},{"start":4471.729,"end":4500.952,"text":"跟委員報告他其實是有達到最低工資只是說這個最低工資外界質疑說白領用最低工資白領是4萬多嘛對不對跟委員報告因為4萬多現在目前在法律上是像類似工程師啊類似那表演藝術工作依照文化部現在所定的資格他不是以薪資他是以他的專業我們要凸顯這部分就是說他沒有最低工資的保障所以其實他領的錢非常的少但是居然沒有違法"},{"start":4501.852,"end":4517.783,"text":"他還是要符合最低基本工資他還是符合的沒有符合最低白領的基本工資嘛是不是這樣他不是屬於專技人員的白領啦如果專技人員白領要4萬多嘛那他按照文化部他是屬於"},{"start":4518.904,"end":4518.944,"text":"好 沒關係"},{"start":4535.319,"end":4556.177,"text":"那我們針對這一部分我們想瞭解一下那如果像4月15號那天記者會因為兩位肯亞人士也親自現身說法那我們來看一下針對他這一部分我們看一下我們針對他提出在記者會提出的違法情勢跳下一頁"},{"start":4558.779,"end":4585.257,"text":"針對這部分就像剛剛部長有提他在許可外工作那就違反了我們就業服務法而且他是強迫勞動又違反了我們的勞基法然後他也未投保勞保那違反了我們勞工保險條例也沒有投保健保那也違反了全民健保法而且他也沒有提繳退休金那針對我們勞工退休條例也是違反了"},{"start":4585.737,"end":4612.947,"text":"而且他這一部分還是被扣留了他的護照那在我們人口販運防治法也是違反了我們的法令而且最主要他還限制他的人身自由那其實已經觸及到刑法那我想請問一下部長針對這以上他們記者會所陳述這些事實如果屬實的話你看看他違反了這麼多法令那針對這一部分部長覺得嚴重嗎?"},{"start":4614.69,"end":4632.438,"text":"法務委員這當然嚴重一共違反了七項我們就一條一條的去檢視他的行為該依法處理依法裁罰甚至這個有刑責的問題都是要一一來處理好那可是我們又"},{"start":4633.438,"end":4655.964,"text":"發現另外一個問題因為他有打1955我們台南市的勞工局居然去稽查檢查回覆他的回覆居然是說僱主無指派許可外工作他去查緝的結果所以他針對這部分而且移民署已經證實他這是許可外工作還有他也"},{"start":4657.247,"end":4683.343,"text":"台南勞工局也說他沒有強迫勞動而且有給付基本工資可是依據肯亞他們說明他連基本工資都沒有領到然後移民署也證實他這個護照確實被扣留可是不知道為什麼台南市勞工局去稽查說他的護照是自行保管良好那針對以上我不知道我們勞發署跟治安署這一部分到底有沒有去介入調查"},{"start":4683.943,"end":4705.262,"text":"有跟委員說明這個案子我們有跟台南市勞工局業務單位有跟他們聯繫他們現在在做業務檢討包括說你去查訪的時候為什麼都跟後來這些兩位肯亞籍人士所講的都不一致在訪查的技巧、訪查的方式要再怎麼精進這個我覺得他們都應該要再做一些處理"},{"start":4705.402,"end":4727.399,"text":"所以我覺得這個事情其實對我們來講我們覺得不可思議他已經打1955去求救了結果勞工局也去稽查也碰到他們兩位居然稽查的結果是說完全都合法完全沒有違法的事項所以我們針對這部分我希望勞動部要重視這兩個肯亞根本就是假白領、真藍領"},{"start":4731.482,"end":4746.705,"text":"那而且我們一直說我們現在針對目前有8萬多的逃逸外勞我一直也看不到勞動部提出一個完善的改善計畫而且針對這一部分我們現在說實在話那時候我們也有講"},{"start":4747.686,"end":4774.952,"text":"當然引進印度移工等等當然是因為解決我們國內勞工的問題但是我真的希望我們針對印度移工的部分在文化、語言、生活差異還有男尊女卑等等的觀念差異之下我覺得應該要提出一個完善的計畫不然我擔心這個印度移工大量的引進到時候反而造成更多的逃逸的外勞"},{"start":4776.915,"end":4804.227,"text":"會 這個我們會謹慎那我們也會持續的開這個諮詢會議就這些大家所關注的議題跟大家對話那也了解後續的部分大家的一些需求要怎麼做這個我們都會好好來規劃處理對我也希望我們當然我們許部長這幾年來也很辛苦但是我也知道說我們後續新任部長何沛山那不知道他上來之後有沒有辦法接續這些業務去做處理"},{"start":4806.084,"end":4816.351,"text":"報告委應該沒有問題以他的能力跟經驗我想他一定可以把後續的一些工作因為有些工作都是持續的我想何部長這沒有問題"},{"start":4817.694,"end":4828.041,"text":"那我請部長還是要去了解一下因為在這之前我們昨天其實還針對打電話給勞發署去詢問針對這後續這肯亞的問題我們問好像勞發署也沒有去聯繫這個當事人然後也沒有去查核這4月15號"},{"start":4839.008,"end":4866.864,"text":"這個勞團記者會他所開的所提出的違法事項有沒有去一一去查核他們說的到底是不是屬實那我希望這部分勞動部真的還是要去瞭解一下而且我們認為後續是不是針對這些白領的部分我們是不是可以抽打這個電話來查詢然後瞭解他是不是有沒有在許可外的工作我認為這些工作應該不難我覺得我們應該要去抽查"},{"start":4867.324,"end":4867.845,"text":"去瞭解這實際的狀況。"},{"start":4884.406,"end":4885.006,"text":"我希望這一部分還是要多重視一下"},{"start":4913.326,"end":4932.944,"text":"還有針對我們現在我們基本的工資那有很多的工會勞工朋友有在跟我們提起他說當然我們蔡英文政府針對這幾年說基本工資連6年調漲可是據我們了解這基本工資"},{"start":4933.624,"end":4950.111,"text":"喔連八年調漲沒關係重點是基本工資這連續的調漲可是後來我們了解他整體勞工勞工這個整體的實質薪資好像並不是因為基本工資調漲而去做調漲也就是說這個薪資在調漲"},{"start":4951.852,"end":4966.422,"text":"但是我們的物價上漲卻是超過這個幅度所以基本工資跟實質薪資的調漲好像是有出入的並沒有帶動我們整體的生活也就是實質薪資並沒有跟著基本工資去做調漲"},{"start":4967.313,"end":4984.426,"text":"報告委員,因為實質薪資他主要是因為這幾年因為疫情還有二五戰爭以哈戰爭這些國際因素經濟情勢這個造成物價通膨這個當然會讓他感受說好像薪資追不上物價的速度"},{"start":4985.106,"end":5008.804,"text":"但是持續來提升以勞動部負責我們是弱勢勞工、邊境勞工他的最低工資我們是持續的在提升希望保障他的最低的保障經濟生活的保障那也希望這樣能夠帶動一般的薪資能夠提升然後經濟果實呼籲企業經濟果實能夠供"},{"start":5010.885,"end":5026.387,"text":"所以我們基本工資的調漲也是希望帶動我們實質經常性的薪資能夠去做這個調漲也希望說讓我們勞工的生活可以過得更好可是後來有很多勞工朋友跟我們來澄清就是說因為"},{"start":5027.969,"end":5048.25,"text":"這個沒有脫鉤的問題他說基本工資的調漲其實幾乎都是調漲在我們的移工我們的本勞他說他們可以說是一二十年的薪資幾乎都沒有調漲他說因為他們領的並不是基本工資基本工資領取幾乎大部分都是移工所以變成說基本工資的調漲"},{"start":5049.011,"end":5071.403,"text":"他說都是一直調到這個移工對於本勞的調漲並沒有實質上的幫助報告委我可以把數據給你我們每年調升基本工資本國人受益的數字就有200萬人以上這個我可以給你那事實上法律並沒有規定移工進來要用基本工資聘他他其實進來是本外勞"},{"start":5072.603,"end":5081.19,"text":"一致原則平等對待原則照理說他做的工作如果跟本國一樣應該是一樣的待遇所以部長你也稍微了解一下對對因為根據我們這數據齁你看這基本工資跟實質薪資的調漲齁這個部分是有差異表示你看這個你說連八年基本工資調漲可是這實質經常性的薪資他這個"},{"start":5096.443,"end":5097.484,"text":"現在請王振旭委員發言。"},{"start":5129.658,"end":5133.301,"text":"謝謝主席。我們有請許部長。請許部長。是。王委員好。部長好。剛剛透過很多委員的諮詢、發言、還有我們從社會大眾得到的訊息,真的很恭喜部長。過去這6年多來,對於臺灣不管是在促進這個勞動環境的進步,或者是對於我們國家競爭力的提升真的是貢獻良多。"},{"start":5157.838,"end":5181.666,"text":"相信這樣的肯定希望未來部長也有機會持續的替社會做一些事情謝謝委員不過我想大家還是很關心有關於這個國內勞工勞動缺工的這個成因跟有沒有更好的方式來解決這個是我們可以繼續努力的那我就利用這個機會來請教一下部長"},{"start":5182.726,"end":5200.656,"text":"其實我們也知道第一季的缺工是相對嚴重五大業別的人力需求都非常非常的高現在是第二季所以針對於所計嚴重缺工以後的所"},{"start":5201.756,"end":5218.163,"text":"獲得努力跟原先我們預期要解決的目標有沒有一個相對的成績可以讓我們來多了解那再過來我們有沒有根據這個第一季處理的情形要做哪一些的修正或者是改變"},{"start":5220.264,"end":5238.659,"text":"其實報告委員解決缺工的問題其實很多的對策那其實我們都是會以優先媒合國人的就業來針對產業的需求來處理那現在我們其實重點都會先擺在這些青年"},{"start":5240.56,"end":5264.605,"text":"剛畢業的青年還有這個我們這個二度就業婦女還有中高齡中壯世代我們叫壯世代的就業重返職場努力那我們都是有一些計畫我們大部分的計畫都是三年期三年期那以投資青年就業我記得去年我們去年第二期上路我們去年的推介的就業已經20萬人"},{"start":5266.699,"end":5277.491,"text":"二十萬人然後我們的失業率也降到8.01所以這個是有顯著的效果出來那另外就是我們的"},{"start":5279.355,"end":5280.856,"text":"這三年內能夠增加30萬的人力到我們的就業市場來所以這個"},{"start":5306.295,"end":5313.585,"text":"改善缺工那這個都是持續在推進的那都是要一段時間可能要整個年度來看比較準就是說有沒有"},{"start":5314.919,"end":5336.158,"text":"讓這個缺工問題有去獲得有效的解決所以如果一季一季看是相對時間太短看不出它這個服務的變化那以第二個需求量多的就是住宿跟餐飲業那我們也知道04、03花蓮發生了大地震我不曉得這個地震對於相對這種需求"},{"start":5337.719,"end":5361.57,"text":"怎麼去評估它的影響?因為我們也看到媒體說其實花蓮目前的影響是蠻明顯的那這部分不曉得部里有沒有針對這個特殊的事件在因應的時候有哪一些的作為?我們現在其實就是有一個專案小組就是我們的發展署在北分署那邊針對花蓮"},{"start":5365.152,"end":5390.649,"text":"7大措施來做一些協助包括他這邊的就業的協助、零工的需求我們都是第一時間點跟他們需求的單位去做聯繫馬上盤點人數、馬上推介上工希望能夠盡速去做一些解決但是就是說因為他現在那邊的觀光"},{"start":5392.21,"end":5394.232,"text":"我們就是就地來安置找工作機會給他"},{"start":5412.212,"end":5434.494,"text":"所以這個部分我們都有持續在做一些對策的研擬,然後希望能夠達到這個協助的效果。是,如果當地的產業剛好也有需求,釋放出來的人力可以互相的去運用的話,那個就需要麻煩部裡面能夠做一些協助的方法。我們現在針對一些鳳凰創業貸款,還有我們多元單位,我們也幫他行銷啊。"},{"start":5435.034,"end":5435.134,"text":"是。是。是。是。是。"},{"start":5460.297,"end":5477.496,"text":"包括說有六大成因會發生國內缺工包括共享經濟出現了一些變化還有低薪薪資的這個待遇不符期待等等那最後一項就是有關於企業沒有聘用中高齡的勞工"},{"start":5478.837,"end":5502.578,"text":"那這個我是比較好奇的就是企業不聘用中高齡的勞工他可能的這個因素還有我們在做制定政策的時候可以做哪一些的因應包括如果從政策方向來看的話其實就是三大項一個就是勞動力供給不足一個是工作條件不具有吸引力學用落差跟技能不足"},{"start":5503.098,"end":5525.27,"text":"那如果以這個企業沒有聘用中高齡勞工來看的話是到底他的工作條件環境具有吸引力呢還是因為他本身借齡以後他的學用落差造成技術不合引起的這些問題那這個在政策的處理部分我們也看到是希望能夠改善這個友善職場要能夠提供好的這個產學雙贏的"},{"start":5527.911,"end":5529.032,"text":"其實我用這些成因裡面我們覺得我們的了解"},{"start":5543.311,"end":5569.251,"text":"其實這個薪資待遇的部分占很大的因素、很大的比例薪資真的還是偏低還有像企業未聘用中高齡就是說可能環境不友善以外其實很多雇主普遍存在有年齡歧視的問題他一看到是中高齡他就覺得他可能體力、各方面可能不足"},{"start":5569.551,"end":5594.897,"text":"其實在他的體力、體能或者這些可能新資方就是說他的專業需要再技能需要再訓練這個勞動部都可以處理的我們都有相關資源因為輔具啊我們每個人一年有十萬塊喔是每年不是每年他只要對他工作感上有用的我們有十萬的額度你可以來申請"},{"start":5596.297,"end":5619.194,"text":"然後像那個整個那個如果專業或技能不足我們也可以培訓所以這個都沒有問題主要是說可能雇主在心態上他沒有講出來啦但是很明顯就是看著銀髮族就可能就排在第二位了那再來就是薪資還是普遍偏低啦因為現在是市球人嘛那如果一樣的"},{"start":5620.111,"end":5622.073,"text":"但是薪資的部分的確是要再提升"},{"start":5649.674,"end":5667.59,"text":"是,所以我們是很希望僱主能夠針對自己的需求缺工的同時也能夠改善他自己內部的環境讓我們這些中高齡者有意願能夠進到這個職場來因為相較於世界各國我們真的是"},{"start":5668.491,"end":5668.731,"text":"我們現在在努力"},{"start":5695.269,"end":5710.72,"text":"就是我們要用壯士代來代替這個忠告領高領就是希望大家不要把他有年齡歧視他們還是很優秀的然後我們其實希望這樣又透過各種計畫來把這個勞參率能夠提升"},{"start":5711.781,"end":5730.499,"text":"我們有沒有跟這些國家有哪一些的交流或者是能夠掌握他們的都有去考察過這幾年是因為疫情不然以前都有考察那沒有我們也都會搜尋他相關的資訊那希望我們有機會能夠繼續改善這部分"},{"start":5731.38,"end":5745.896,"text":"那其實這個補助申請數相對可能申請人多可是能夠媒合的人相對就不夠這個是希望能夠來繼續努力的那最後來請教一下怎麼去搶人留才"},{"start":5747.017,"end":5772.502,"text":"這樣的這個問題我們知道目前的這個移工人數相對是多的我們看下面一個資料可以發現說我們有蠻多的這個移工是在臺灣那他們也根據一些規定能夠持續在臺灣貢獻他們的力量比如說如果移工在臺工作滿6年以上那他就可以能夠做一些改變然後繼續留在臺灣"},{"start":5773.522,"end":5800.085,"text":"那以目前的這個社福移工就是包括照護等的話有12萬人可是只有1.5萬人他願意申請流財的這個方案那這部分問題是出在哪裡如果說他有這個條件留下來他也有意願留下來為什麼他沒有辦法來申請是這個僱主的因素呢或者是我們的仲介的讓我們這樣的這個好"},{"start":5802.026,"end":5828.992,"text":"想要讓這個移工留下來的這個無法促成這樣的成果我們是每個月統計每個月大概都有一千人接近兩千接近兩千就是產業跟社福分別他大概合計大概有兩千人然後社福是佔了三分之二社福比較多轉任的比較多那他當然會錄因為我們這是八年計畫到2030我們準備"},{"start":5832.454,"end":5853.87,"text":"14萬就是所有的移工決裁9月14萬那其實以現在的我們都已經超標了我們其實照理說我們上路還不到兩年我們其實一般來講我們大概希望一年一萬我們不到兩年現在已經兩萬五千多人到三月底喔是遠遠超標那當時他的申請是會陸陸續續啦"},{"start":5855.791,"end":5866.817,"text":"好,那很希望這樣的方案可以達到發揮它的作用。好,謝謝部長,謝謝。謝謝王振旭委員發言。接下來請蘇清泉委員發言。好,謝謝主席。我請部長。請許部長。"},{"start":5883.639,"end":5906.646,"text":"蘇惠好部長辛苦了功成身退了謝謝希望很快就有高就更好的位置好我今天有一個問題先請教在南部或者全台灣我們一般做肉類的冷鏈加工的它是聘請外屬A級嘛"},{"start":5909.247,"end":5933.684,"text":"那他們聘請外勞是他的員工總數的25%合備比率是沒錯吧對冷凍冷藏我看這邊是25%沒錯但是冷凍冷藏那現在的問題就這個是我們第一批的那個石斑魚從新達出發我去跟他們加油打氣的活魚運搬的"},{"start":5934.364,"end":5949.436,"text":"好,現在的水產加工尤其在高雄跟屏東他們也都是用冷鏈那你職業別你就不行我自己要求是不是能比照肉品因為一樣都是全程都冷鏈"},{"start":5950.537,"end":5971.384,"text":"所以這些的比例能不能給他們調整25%?這個要求不過分了。這個部分是經濟部工業局的產發署。行業分級是他們在評估。我會把委員的意見轉達給他們。認為如果有就是可以的話我們這邊請他們也能夠做一些檢討調整。"},{"start":5972.441,"end":5998.771,"text":"因為現在真的是切人切得很嚴重。這一種我昨天、前天去看我們台低啊,台低也一樣。現在是整個都被關閉了。從頭到尾。這台灣的孩子沒有人要做啦。行事也不錯啊。所以也相對的就是他拼不到合法的工廠,他不敢去拼非法的外勞。"},{"start":5999.831,"end":6025.298,"text":"一般打零工的比如說農業的今天要幾個就來幾個我覺得這些逃跑的外勞跟合法的外勞是台灣安定的最大力量我這裡要跟我們外移工做最好的肯定我們不能再有任何的歧視再有任何什麼都不行因為他們真的對我們的貢獻太大了我跟大家報告"},{"start":6027.596,"end":6048.486,"text":"如果現在農村都老化,如果沒有這些徽法、這些移工來幫忙的話根本動不了在高速、在恆春都一樣所以我們看了都很感動當然勞動部這邊能配合的就要盡量來配合"},{"start":6050.854,"end":6076.041,"text":"能夠讓他們那個身份、留下的身份變成正常是應該的啦。然後再來就是我們要提高他們的待遇啦。事實上現在那些逃跑的移工外勞他們的每天是忌日的。做一天就穿五、兩千、回到兩千多。所以他們比吃頭髮、吃胃還要更高嘛。"},{"start":6078.121,"end":6095.661,"text":"很高了,我們現在拼幾年就採用基本工資兩、三萬塊對不對那一天就可以拿到一千五、兩千一個月就五、六萬跑不掉了所以他寧可跑掉啊所以這個是很糟糕的事情部長,你要先,你要看看怎麼做"},{"start":6097.723,"end":6125.609,"text":"這個我們持續在檢討不過說實在這些私領移工他雖然看起來零日薪蠻高但是他沒有任何他有風險啦然後也可能會被剝削然後也沒有社會保險勞健保什麼的其實說起來也是處境也是慷慮啦所以我們都希望都是合法引進然後希望我們的僱主針對這些合法移工善待給他應有的合理的薪資這樣才能夠留住人"},{"start":6126.863,"end":6146.139,"text":"我看我們在高雄屏東這些產業如果做食品的做肉類的、魚類的事實上他們對外籍外籍移工上面是很善待你要跟我講說會看到什麼什麼什麼林內霸林我告訴你我在這邊贊重講我沒有看到"},{"start":6147.04,"end":6161.353,"text":"而且還會塞一些摩納斯給他們,因為他們不善待他們,又娶沒人啊,又娶沒人,真的娶沒人,而且這個需要量是很大,所以這個政策還是要與時俱進。"},{"start":6162.754,"end":6185.343,"text":"那你薪水太低就沒有人要來啦。我們現在的移工最主要來自菲律賓還有呢?菲律賓、印尼、越南還有泰國。泰國就少了吧。現在比較少了。泰國他自己在發展產業。對對。所以你現在就是要引進印度的移工。那我們初期是要引進多少人啊?"},{"start":6186.316,"end":6202.648,"text":"人數還沒有確定因為我們要看各產業的需求我們要目的世界主管機關像經濟部、衛福部、農業部、內政部來討論說大概有多少需求然後再來決定我跟部長講事實上因為東南亞這些國家"},{"start":6207.819,"end":6212.563,"text":"那印度的移工,印度應該是高加索的"},{"start":6227.605,"end":6237.821,"text":"這個在人類學我們醫學上人類學這個我們就是蒙古系那邊是高加索系那高加索人他的生活習慣、宗教跟我們是完全不一樣"},{"start":6238.686,"end":6258.86,"text":"那你要引進印度的移工進來當然缺人那引進讓那個來源多元化但是你有沒有去想說他們的生活風險觀念跟我們不一樣那大家也對印度還有很多的疑慮那勞動部這一塊是怎麼補強"},{"start":6260.734,"end":6282.923,"text":"你怎麼不能把它引進來丟給仲介,仲介沒有能力,他沒有能力。對啦,那個報告委員所以我們其實也會透過的召開諮詢的會議讓社會大家各個團體專家學者來參與對話讓大家對印度的部分提出給我們一些希望我們再來做一些更怎麼樣的規劃"},{"start":6284.724,"end":6305.934,"text":"讓大家能夠來對印度更了解然後在對於印度的移工的數值的部分能夠予以來肯定有信心這個部分我們會持續的召開會議也會透過各種方式來讓我們兩民眾能夠了解這個要加強因為印度那個國際上一些"},{"start":6306.794,"end":6307.174,"text":"現在韓國也在談"},{"start":6332.288,"end":6358.004,"text":"我們是第二個跟他簽的然後所以這部分我覺得大概但是大家所關心的、擔心的我們都會去化解大家疑慮透過對話你要兩方調適那進來這邊我不能把它丟給一些仲介業者去在磨合的時候我就覺得這個是很危險的這個部分我們會加強還有你們跟印度談MOU"},{"start":6361.047,"end":6361.447,"text":"委員這種MOU在"},{"start":6380.854,"end":6401.828,"text":"就是程序完成之前都是保密的我們也不是只有針對印度之前引進之前4個國家都是這樣還有其他我們各部會跟人家簽MOU也是都這樣完成之後行政院和你自然就是會公布啦所以沒有之後比較特別而且他只是一個大原則而已你看他條文就很簡單我看你13條"},{"start":6404.95,"end":6418.365,"text":"13條嘛那是一個原則就是說大家一個意向書把大原則先談定下來後面的工作層級會議才是重點那才會有實質內容出來我看印度很少提到台灣很少幫台灣講話所以我們這樣一頭熱會當台灣講話只有印度神統"},{"start":6424.631,"end":6444.599,"text":"他都亂講,他都亂講委員我們其實現在跟印度之間的一個交流還蠻密切的然後包括經濟、經貿的投資等等甚至包括醫藥方面也都有印度的那個學名藥的原料藥它占全世界將近30%中國大陸將近"},{"start":6448.662,"end":6453.833,"text":"50%所以這兩個國家加起來是占全世界學民要的原料要供應將近80%"},{"start":6456.178,"end":6475.506,"text":"那印度的那個原料藥的原料跟原始的原料還跟中國大陸嘛所以這個整個都是卡死所以美國說要修理中國大陸原料藥不給他我看他抗生素第二代、第三代都沒有藥啦所以講那個事情都是錯綜複雜沒想到我們想那麼簡單那勞動部這一塊已經外國移工因為現在只有來源國越來越少"},{"start":6483.849,"end":6504.722,"text":"所以我們還是要廣、廣要。緬甸我有去,我有去談過緬甸捏。後來沒有簽嘛。可以再加強這一塊。他們也很喜歡來。現在他們,緬甸我也覺得很可惜。其實我們勞動部之前已經談到某個那個了。但是沒有辦法。我在第8屆的時候還要去跟他們農業部。當然是我們這邊農委會請我去巡查啦。"},{"start":6510.705,"end":6538.456,"text":"談得蠻可以,但後來就沒有成。所以這個可以加強。緬甸五、六千萬人那個地方而且很近。所以可以廣說各個來源國。不然的話台灣這個缺工、缺料、缺專家是越來越嚴重。只會越嚴重啦。不會改善。我們其實不放棄啦。所以過去談了後來促交,就不放棄啦。"},{"start":6540.137,"end":6550.35,"text":"持續透過外交部來評估。外交部做不到的,我們也可以幫忙。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝初卿、全委員。現在先休息10分鐘。"},{"start":7183.732,"end":7212.274,"text":"好,現在繼續開會。現在請鄭天才委員發言。好,主席、各位委員。有請那個勞動力發展署蔡署長,還有延明會﹖請蔡署長。何璐﹖署長﹖羅署長。好,委員好。好,署長好。"},{"start":7214.718,"end":7215.058,"text":"第二十四條．"},{"start":7236.54,"end":7259.017,"text":"就有當初只有6款其中一款就原住民所以當時非常當時的這個立法院當時的政府非常重視不僅僅是這樣原住民這三個字是中華民國的法律第一次出現在"},{"start":7260.97,"end":7274.942,"text":"在法例那時候憲法還沒有修民國83年才修三包正名為原住民所以當時憲法還是寫三包的時候中華民國的法例"},{"start":7276.312,"end":7282.595,"text":"中央主管機關應會同原住民族委員會辦理相關原住民族就業服務事項﹖"},{"start":7306.414,"end":7329.151,"text":"就業服務法第6條現在勞動部一直比較努力的地方是在就業服務法第6條的第6款等一下我們會談你們很努力的在這個地方那園民會的報告那個羅社長"},{"start":7330.39,"end":7356.985,"text":"你的報告裡面寫了這些當然我們的失業率有減少但是這個很多的因素很多的因素這裡面你的報告裡面就業促進特別講了這些事實上你寫了這些那麼長的那麼長的跟今天的主題其實是很多都沒有關係的"},{"start":7358.556,"end":7372.755,"text":"今天主題是就業服務法三十年然後相關的這些然後你寫了一堆這個很多都是新的法律才有的譬如說原住民族委員發展法"},{"start":7374.198,"end":7395.754,"text":"是我在立法院推動然後相關的這個以推人員然後是這個相關的這些足以專職業專職化都是我在立法院推動的像那個長期照顧服務法也是新的法例然後我們特別請衛福部一定要那個原住民族的專章"},{"start":7397.71,"end":7420.936,"text":"然後相關的這個文化健康站的推動經費的協調都是我去那邊協調的所以這個部分寫一堆這些這樣的話大家會以為原住民的就業已經完全就沒有需要了會這樣的所以這個部分"},{"start":7422.711,"end":7450.429,"text":"人民會怎麼樣去協助真正去協助你也提到我們的那個薪資差額還是超過一萬以上啊對不對像這個怎麼去努力去協調這個才是一個今天你的報告裡面太多的這個跟今天的主題沒有關係的部分所以都把它訂進去像工作權保障法"},{"start":7451.553,"end":7453.955,"text":"這是今年4月25日勞動部在這裡的一個報告"},{"start":7479.167,"end":7481.971,"text":"延攬外國專業人才。112年3月6日,勞動部跨國勞動力政策協商諮詢小組召開第35次會議。"},{"start":7501.094,"end":7515.528,"text":"會議結論．原則同意營造業引進營造移工採階段性先行開放總額8000名並視實際情形可增加開放至1.5萬名。請問一下署長現在開放進來多少?"},{"start":7521.76,"end":7547.147,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個部分是內政部國產署那1.5萬名是以他的設定的條件去做分配那目前據我們的瞭解他這個1萬5千名大概大概就是已經陸陸續續在合配也接近快要合配多少大約人數大概1萬2再回覆對1萬2差不多快要接近再順便提供給我"},{"start":7549.93,"end":7574.311,"text":"委員會有沒有參加這個會議?有。所以這是一個很嚴重的需要去檢討的地方。這個外國人從事就業服務法第46條第一項第8款是第11款工作資格一再的修一再的修修了18次"},{"start":7577.231,"end":7600.972,"text":"這8年來修了18次很重要的一再放寬 我們都放寬沒有關係但是不要把原住民禁用的唯一的條款就刪除掉了你們沒有反對啊 羅處長當初開會還是你們就沒有注意看這個條文就這樣"},{"start":7602.253,"end":7614.281,"text":"保障原住民金融還是要還是要有為什麼外國人進來切功我們支持但是不要保障的條款以後再放進來不容易啊"},{"start":7615.785,"end":7616.385,"text":"接下來請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":7653.301,"end":7657.144,"text":"主席各位大家午安是不是還請我們許部長請許部長林委員好部長好我們促進就業服務法第一條明文規定第一個開宗就明義就宣誓是為了促進國民就業還有以增進社會及經濟發展在這種狀況裡面我們知道那個時候時代的時空背景30年前我們開放外勞的時候"},{"start":7680.6,"end":7687.384,"text":"對於這個引進外籍移工那希望做一個產業結構上的調整那因為有怕受到衝擊所以我們當然要有這個就業輔導就業促進這樣的一個機制而當時的時空背景是這樣產出的可是這樣外籍移工到現在"},{"start":7698.53,"end":7725.692,"text":"人數已經來到了七八十萬了七十五萬對七八十萬七十五萬在這種狀況裡面我們的確要好好的檢視今天這個就業服務法上路三十年了這個法律裡面有什麼結構性的問題要處理那我們先從他的這個現行的法律來看第一個就是說雖然是就服法呢但是裡面卻是以外國人的聘僱與管理的篇幅最多大概有22個條文"},{"start":7728.054,"end":7743.227,"text":"排除了這個總則和法則以外管理外籍移工的聘僱和管理的有22條公司立就業服務機構設置和管理的有17條其實也是為了管理外籍移工所設的這個中介這個機關機構的這個管理"},{"start":7746.91,"end":7766.745,"text":"但是以促進就業就業促進的篇幅反而在裡面是最少的只有13條所以一般我們外界都認為說就服法就等同於跨國勞動力的管理法一般都會著墨於說我們對於就業促進的這個著墨太少了"},{"start":7767.745,"end":7789.138,"text":"所以呢另一方面我們就講說那雖然是一個跨國勞動力的管理法但是有關外國勞動力的部分一直有很多衍生性的問題包括這個就業服務機構仲介剝削移工的問題然後也招移工團體去抨擊說這是一部反公共、反自由、反平等的法案"},{"start":7789.818,"end":7813.237,"text":"所以我們今天在這裡就依據你們的書面報告來檢視救福法翻修的歷程你看整部法律到底是什麼在翻修在修法的程序裡面還是以外國人聘僱案管理部分這部分的修法次數最多高達了30年來高達了16次的修法但是以就業促進的修法只有5次"},{"start":7814.398,"end":7827.826,"text":"然後弱勢就業的修法三次然後兩度、二度就業婦女的這一種六類人員納為這個特定對象就是弱勢就業這三次是為了納入這個弱勢就業"},{"start":7831.397,"end":7859.765,"text":"但是呢禁止就業歧視的也修了4次那這個他禁止這個就就業歧視就擴大這個就業歧視所禁止的範圍所以我們要問部長就是說這個整個法規的法律的架構是否符合就業服務法第一條的立法的意旨我們要這個促進就業在立法的體系上那你又要如何強化促進就業的角色和功能"},{"start":7860.365,"end":7884.3,"text":"那大家今天問了很多次說那有沒有討論到說有沒有考慮到讓促進就業跟這個外國勞動力這個脫鉤兩個法就直接分開因為兩件事情的確是分屬不同領域而且以這個跨國勞動力的管理來講真的是很複雜也很需要大幅的很多的修正這樣子"},{"start":7885.595,"end":7906.714,"text":"報告委,我的確覺得說就整部就業服務法來看本外國勞工的規範的確是失衡那再加上說其實現在的這個移工人數越來越多我是認為未來這個跨國勞動力的管理的規範事實上是可以朝向專法的"},{"start":7911.458,"end":7925.369,"text":"對那我們也可以再做一經過這30年的演變吼可能各自不管是本本國勞工外國外籍勞工我們都可以去做比較整體完整的規劃各自在不同的專法裡面去把它做更完善的規定"},{"start":7926.781,"end":7929.844,"text":"是但我今天在講說加強強化這個促進就業的這個繳算功能裡面我們這13條裡面其實未來如果要脫鉤也一樣這13條裡面有13條的條文那主要是第23條針對了檢"},{"start":7945.537,"end":7962.938,"text":"檢辦休息僱用安定措施還有第24條的這個弱勢就業這個對象定出了他的就業計畫發給津貼和補助金但是我現在跟你分享第一個就是我們針對特定弱勢對象以身份去分類"},{"start":7964.659,"end":7984.965,"text":"這樣子的就業促進的政策和對策到底是不是妥當的因為我們現在說以獨立這個負擔家計者、中高齡者、身心障礙者、原住民等等去檢視他的身份然後看他是否仍然具備有高就業力然後檢視問題是問題是這個身份"},{"start":7988.366,"end":8001.23,"text":"就身分別去給他這個擬定計畫然後做出津貼這樣是不是恰當因為我們來促進就業可能更需要檢視的指標是這個失業的衝擊對失業的這個個人失業時間的長短失業期間是不是比他的身分別這種指標還更重要"},{"start":8012.714,"end":8030.046,"text":"你失業多久了?我要給你多少的量身訂製讓你有促進就業的計畫?我的經驗要怎麼給付?而不是說你是什麼身份這樣子所以失業期間到你三個月的還是六個月、九個月、十二個月以上我們要提供不同深度的就業諮詢和就業促進的措施"},{"start":8031.027,"end":8059.206,"text":"那第二個就業促進的職業訓練津貼你們這個職業訓練津貼也是以身分分別你到底是中高齡的還是身心障礙的你作為勤領的年限那只有身心障礙者可以高達這個最長一年的勤領職業訓練的生活津貼那其他身分別大概是六個月那我今天要討論這個是說到底身分別來給他促進就業計畫和給他津貼到底是不是最妥當的"},{"start":8061.167,"end":8072.567,"text":"那以像這個身分別光是身分別來看每個都只能領6個月身心障礙可以領到12個月這個6個月和12個月的標準的差異在哪裡啊"},{"start":8074.935,"end":8095.156,"text":"對,報告委員當然當初的立法或者說這些計畫用身份別可能有他的考量他可能針對說他有不同的屬性去針對他的需求去做一些規範但我覺得啦剛剛您講的也是有道理我覺得未來這個部分我們再重新再檢視在新的規範裡面去做一個比較充分的"},{"start":8095.937,"end":8121.433,"text":"也應該要了,到30年了當然這個修法沒那麼久但是就是說我們也擔心用身分別去促進就業的進展去保障就業促進的這個進展恐怕也會排除了真正的需要的勞工為什麼呢?因為以身分別這個會排除的例子就是像你現在提的二度就業婦女的再就業計畫"},{"start":8122.754,"end":8144.09,"text":"你們這個裡面好像看起來像要照顧因為家庭需求而中斷職涯的婦女但是也有現在社會很多元啊又單親的父親就單親家庭的父親他因為照顧家庭或者是說即便是雙親那現在也流行說是"},{"start":8145.091,"end":8148.493,"text":"所以我們看到你們介於弱勢的就業對象多元"},{"start":8165.302,"end":8184.584,"text":"雖然母法沒有明列啦但是你們核定計畫還是用身分別在核定那你們就依照身分別還是用身分別去給人家這個促進就業的協助可是我剛剛講那個例子你就排除了真正需要的所以你們的促進特定對象及弱勢者就業"},{"start":8186.125,"end":8212.811,"text":"補助作業要點那你們在這種裡面你們還不斷的在擴充其實擴充到適用毒品者、脆弱家庭者然後危機家庭、犯罪被害人、人口犯孕被害人或疑似被害人、遊民等等其實那個都已經不在母法24條裡面所列舉的身份裡面了你們還是不斷的用你們的辦法沒有母法的依據裡面用你們的辦法在擴充但我們也不是說不"},{"start":8214.351,"end":8214.611,"text":"但是呢﹖"},{"start":8235.761,"end":8252.092,"text":"我們現在還要再回歸到這個法裡面最多的就是外籍、跨國勞動力的這個管理的問題一直在講就業跟人權外國勞動力這個單獨立法你剛剛講說也是一個時機是應該你也支持嗎是"},{"start":8254.124,"end":8271.65,"text":"但是呢以人權保障為核心的包容性的外國勞動力政策要從這個救福法裡面抽離單獨立法但是我們目前就目前的既有的法律裡面還是很多有人家認為是直接歧視的條款"},{"start":8272.85,"end":8296.469,"text":"比如說家事勞動欠缺、勞動條件保障、移工被排除在部分的社會保障以及僱用形態所衍生的風險和人權侵害、移工的管理制度遭非營利組織詬病涉及人口販運但是你們在未來裡面有一個要修正的就是說你們要加重在這個"},{"start":8298.13,"end":8324.921,"text":"第41條有一個修法嘛你們要加重處罰則改採每個人頭罰款的方式非法僱用、非法仲介對仲介那你們要去強化僱主案私立就業服務機構的管理責任但是你們這個是要管理的41條的修法是要管理國外的仲介公司啊國外的國外的嘛沒有國內"},{"start":8326.201,"end":8344.352,"text":"就是非法,我們的國內的僱主要非法聘用這些失聯義工或國內的仲介公司沒有你們是要納管,我現在講是你們法案還在你們院裡面還沒有出來你們未來要將國外的人力仲介公司納管這件事你們是列入了考慮嗎?"},{"start":8346.141,"end":8372.769,"text":"但我們現在講的是說現行管理國內仲介你們都沒有辦法杜絕剝削的情勢然後你們現在講說你們對於這個這個改革上你們還要再納入這個國外人力仲介公司的納管所以這是我們怎麼會沒有你們要修41支1條啊本國仲介"},{"start":8376.015,"end":8379.135,"text":"對啦但是本國仲介以外你們要納管國外仲介啊"},{"start":8379.775,"end":8389.378,"text":"我們針對國外中間是針對失聯如果失聯率我們未來就是在那個雙邊的那個談判裡面你們現在有一條要納管你們好我現在就跟你講說其實我們剛剛我之前跟你講21世紀的經貿協議還有現在歐美歐美整個市場上對於環境勞工議題上很嚴格的把關以外還有一個RBA的集合你知道RBA的集合的概念"},{"start":8406.863,"end":8419.589,"text":"RBA他們要採取的是﹐尤其是電子產品要採取最高的社會環境和道德標準確保勞工得到善待是最高的喔所以電子產品的企業社會責任聯盟"},{"start":8423.742,"end":8443.273,"text":"這個已經是跑在我們整個國家或國際的規範的最前面了而我們在這種時間時機也已經到了到了一個說我們對於勞工環境的議題所以媒體已經有披露到說台灣也要將禁止強迫勞動商品輸入這個"},{"start":8446.214,"end":8463.722,"text":"行政院初步決議要由內政部修人口販運法禁止強迫勞動產品輸入而且這個強迫勞動產品要由給勞動部去認定海關去執行那請問你要如何執行強迫勞動產品的認定你們要怎麼認定這個行政院都還在就是說大概大原則是這樣但後續還有一些討論"},{"start":8475.277,"end":8492.371,"text":"討論了很多次了這個新聞都露出了我國你跟禁止強迫勞動產品這個禁出口禁出口所以今天很多人在問你印度勞工引進的事情我們看到就是說禁止強迫勞動產品輸入可是我們也有輸出的這個"},{"start":8495.051,"end":8496.673,"text":"但是我現在就問你最後一個問題好了啦就是說"},{"start":8516.152,"end":8538.05,"text":"這個印度移工的職聘國對國的職聘有這麼難嗎?你們的MOU簽的是在現有的制度下雙方推動國對國聘僱請問這個到底是國對國聘僱還是現有制度裡面的這個仲介引入這個路徑也可以到底是單軌還是雙軌報告委員我們現在現行的就是還是"},{"start":8544.298,"end":8565.41,"text":"我剛剛講是你們的MOU簽訂的內容對 我們未來在工作層級會議裡面我們會希望以國對國來引進作為優先啦作為優先因為你們MOU就是寫說在現有的制度下現有是雙軌了嘛對 雙軌 對但是你們下面有寫一個雙方推動國對國聘僱是"},{"start":8567.771,"end":8571.735,"text":"所以是有優先因為我們知道說為什麼講這個這個RBA還有這個國際市場的要求還有對強迫勞動商品的輸入輸出我們的電子產品的輸出都是一樣所以才有我們電子產品的這個半導體廠商他們要已經要用零付費的這個方式去買工了嘛就引進啦去引進啦"},{"start":8595.655,"end":8619.94,"text":"所以這有企業的需求不是我說整個社會的架構已經來到一個允許你在這一個印度引進模式裡面真的要好好的單軌國對國的模式然後去聘僱啦這是最好的契機也是剛好符合我們這個時代現在的需求而且我們"},{"start":8621.42,"end":8629.9,"text":"你知道經濟部已經訂了一個產業鏈的台灣供應鏈企業尊重人權指引你知道嗎經濟部"},{"start":8632.305,"end":8661.226,"text":"我有這個印象經濟部已經訂了一個台灣供應鏈的企業尊重人權指引如果他再更進一階叫做供應鏈責任法有人在講說你們應該訂出供應鏈的責任法要人權責任法所以這個就是代表說你對於移工的政策也到了一個很大的這個進展是需要勇敢的要邁向政府要扛起責任的時代啦"},{"start":8662.011,"end":8688.224,"text":"否則的話再用那種雙軌然後再交給仲介我想我們的企業會失去這個競爭力甚至會遭受到抵制我們現在講我們禁止剝削勞動力的產品輸入講的是新疆棉可是未來整個RBA的檢視他告訴你說你這個企業不符合這個或是涉及到強迫勞動"},{"start":8690.746,"end":8715.147,"text":"這個對我們國家的企業的形象傷害很大的時候我們也是有可能產品輸出也是會產生問題啊克不容緩已經是要國對國要引進的時代了那剛好就業服務法裡面我們也認為促進國民就業跟這個跨國移工的管理政策要脫鉤啊兩部要變成兩部法要單獨專法了啦"},{"start":8716.068,"end":8732.79,"text":"所以你要離開了不過我們也是希望你可以反映讓政策延續下去是好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員現在做一下宣告等一下在洪孟楷委員質詢完畢處理臨時提案一案現在請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":8744.178,"end":8746.982,"text":"王偉浩部長好,延續著上一次質詢的主題也就是蔡英文總統這8年來對勞工所做的六大承諾實踐的狀況"},{"start":8763.188,"end":8786.933,"text":"2016 2016年1月8日的時候蔡總統在電視政見會上說我不會拿勞工朋友的權益在選舉時候開空投資票做政治操作這句話說得非常的好政見開出來是拿來旅行的不是拿來騙票的更不是拿來做選舉操作的"},{"start":8788.053,"end":8800.752,"text":"因此,我們上次回顧了有關於薪資要增加、工時要減少這兩項勞工朋友最關心的議題之後我們今天進入第三項"},{"start":8802.102,"end":8828.57,"text":"也就是針對非典勞力的部分我們來看一下蔡總統怎麼說的我們要走向一個進步的社會就必須要立法保護非典型的勞工首先要訂定派遣勞動專法我們派遣勞動專法訂了嗎報告委員沒有訂專法那這樣子蔡總統有沒有跳票對但我們把一些派遣請你回答問題這樣有沒有跳票"},{"start":8829.298,"end":8851.957,"text":"沒有,報告委員,我們沒有訂專法啦齁那但是我們有把一些勞工這個派遣勞動權益最重要條文我們有讓他入法所以你覺得夠了嗎當然你覺得夠了嗎我們認為就是務實中追求理想啦齁當然還不夠啊但是會第一個承諾要訂專法跳票"},{"start":8853.049,"end":8862.658,"text":"第二個,你說把東西放進去,你承認還不夠。第三個,要訂定部分公使勞工保護的相關立法,有做嗎?你覺得現在對於部分公使勞工保護做得夠嗎?"},{"start":8879.335,"end":8880.216,"text":"用要點來處理喔?蛤?來嘛"},{"start":8897.062,"end":8923.611,"text":"我就一樣一樣實事求是我從來不跟你談抽象的問題定例勞動派遣專法沒有定定例部分公使勞工保護的相關立法也沒有立我們進一步去看蔡英文跳票連監察院都看不下去這個是2019年監察院所提出來的報告這個是通案性案件調查研究報告"},{"start":8924.795,"end":8949.986,"text":"在這個報告裡面他就明白的講啊政府沒有直接針對派遣勞工保護法召開協商會議改朝向行政指導、行政措施與蔡英文總統所接駐訂定派遣勞動專法相悖這個是監察院的調查報告這不是我講的所以我才說啊連監察院都看不下去了"},{"start":8950.871,"end":8976.901,"text":"部分工時的部分也是一樣檢察院在調查報告的時候也講得很清楚了他說部分工時的勞工在勞動關係當中處於相對的弱勢然後你剛剛所講的注意事項要只有具有行政指導的性質沒有辦法落實相關權益的保障對於檢察院這樣子的批評部長你接不接受"},{"start":8978.308,"end":8980.529,"text":"我這樣講好了啦8年前提出來的承諾"},{"start":9003.53,"end":9029.31,"text":"到今天檢驗實際上面還是跳票勞動部要有個態度勞動部要有個態度這些都是具體開出來的證件這不是騙票這也不應該做選舉操作這個是蔡總統說的嘛好我們來看一下部分工時的勞工他沒有特休假的比例是變高還是變低"},{"start":9032.748,"end":9052.985,"text":"這是你們的調查報告啊如果按照你剛剛所講的啊要適用勞基法啊要落實啊那不對啊怎麼會沒有特休假的比例會越來越高呢這不是落實啊這是越來越糟糕啊這是惡化啊這是你們勞動部部分工時勞工就業實況調查報告啊部長所以你剛剛講的不對嘛"},{"start":9061.621,"end":9072.452,"text":"你說要是要勞基法啊、要落實啊現實上就沒有嘛我有說錯嗎?繼續檢討嘛來第四個保障目前台灣工會的涵蓋率相當低啊"},{"start":9082.014,"end":9103.776,"text":"我認為要逐漸提高工會的涵蓋率、修改工會法不合時宜的限制、促進工會組織真正的自由化這件事情有做到嗎?這個當然有 這個整個涵蓋率有 還沒有達到理想啦我覺得這部分應該要持續再努力啦"},{"start":9104.404,"end":9129.606,"text":"還沒有達到理想持續要努力部長你真的非常會講關話抽象的空話非常會講來我們來看一下央行2023年他一直在檢討一件事啊跟我在提出的薪資要增加這個訴求直接相關了因為我們受僱者報酬在我們GDP的比例過去這幾年是逐漸惡化越來越糟糕"},{"start":9130.871,"end":9147.842,"text":"我在這個系列的質詢的第一次就跟部長講過這件事了我們央行提出來的解方是什麼這是央行講的啊央行是很重視啊我們的經濟發展連這麼重視經濟發展的中央銀行都看不下去啊中央銀行怎麼講"},{"start":9149.13,"end":9176.323,"text":"我們目前產業工會的組織率他講2021年7.8%低於南韓的12.5%日本的16.9%因此政府以協助並鼓勵中小企業的勞工加入產業工會或適度降低工會籌組的門檻以提高我國工會的組織率進而強化勞工對薪資的溢價能力部長 贊不贊成央行的建議"},{"start":9178.284,"end":9201.426,"text":"當然央行今天我們是會來尊重也應該要來檢討那不過就是說在現實上因為我們臺灣的這個中小企業占了98%那在你說得很好中小企業占很多嘛現在我們主公會的門檻是多少我們要30人央行說要適度降低主公會的門檻 贊不贊成"},{"start":9205.502,"end":9222.802,"text":"這個齁其實我的業務單位這幾年都一直在研議啦研議了八年了嘛三十個人要不要調降研議了八年你也知道台灣絕大多數是中小企業阿阿三十個人門檻高不高很高嘛連央行都講話啦"},{"start":9224.619,"end":9253.695,"text":"沒關係啦我不是這個委員會了主席站起來比較快按你按得比較兇啊我尊重我尊重但我今天檢討蔡英文勞工政策六大保障我從第一個主題開始薪資要增加工時要減少非典就業的保障到現在主公會的問題每一個承諾都是我們賴總統對勞工朋友莊嚴的承諾有做到沒有做到該怎麼檢討部長我知道你要卸任了啦"},{"start":9255.407,"end":9261.054,"text":"我知道您要卸任了我希望下一屆的勞動部的部長以此為鑑謝謝接下來請麥玉珍委員發言"},{"start":9282.17,"end":9284.971,"text":"有請勞動部部長,謝謝主席。想要請教一下我們政府已經在2022年已經禁止中介要收中介費也是建立了職聘的管道請問部長認為我們國家職聘的移工政策是否完善?"},{"start":9313.824,"end":9341.974,"text":"我們當然職聘成立以後我們有持續在精進讓他們能夠簡化因為我們現在的移工的引進我們是採多元就是說僱主他可以來使用職聘他也可以委託仲介他也可以自己引進那很多的因為一開始就是用開放的時候就是仲介來引進所以大家的習慣職聘成立到現在也一段時間那當然或許大家會認為"},{"start":9342.814,"end":9343.335,"text":"但我們也持續在檢討希望讓大家能夠"},{"start":9351.8,"end":9374.502,"text":"是的,所以我們就覺得就是還有很大的空間要進步這個部分其實也跟我們報告我們也困難也不只說我們自己的國內制度要怎麼來把它簡化、精簡另外就是來源國這邊像越南、印尼他們就是比較不願意採資聘"},{"start":9377.044,"end":9396.643,"text":"應該是沒有不願意採職聘是因為我們沒有一個窗口去採職聘沒有沒有窗口都有對窗口也是中介啊不是政府對政府我可以帶你去跨國事務中心看我們的外國人事務中心就在中華路那邊我們有一個中心喔"},{"start":9397.444,"end":9415.209,"text":"中心是在台灣嘛對台灣啊對但是我就說直聘的話是國外要跟老闆去直聘你要沒有這個完整的移工的資料外國他也要成立一個窗口對外國他也要成立一個窗口跟我們的窗口來對就好啦"},{"start":9415.689,"end":9435.115,"text":"但是如果是那麼完整的話 剛才你為什麼說還沒有那麼完善呢 有那麼完整應該是有很完善啊 所以就不會造成說不是很完善啊我所謂不夠完善就是說 譬如說我們國內端的部分 可能還有很多人認為程序比較繁瑣"},{"start":9436.235,"end":9441.4,"text":"但是國外端有他的問題。希望就是說把就是移工的資料庫還有我們的顧主想要聘任的他們都是很容易就是找到移工移工也很容易跟顧主直接這樣子的話就會減少說仲介"},{"start":9463.319,"end":9492.671,"text":"對﹖對﹖對﹖對﹖對﹖對﹖對﹖"},{"start":9493.051,"end":9515.056,"text":"變成還是一樣透過仲介嘛。大部分還是透過仲介嘛。就像日本、韓國。日本、韓國的話都是應用。現在缺工。所以日本、韓國像我們越南到韓國。像我嫁來台灣。我就可以推薦我的家人過去那一邊工作。有出事情。"},{"start":9516.161,"end":9533.002,"text":"我要負責要逃跑我要負責有可能因為我的家人我推薦的人逃跑我就會失去台灣拿身份證的資格所以我們希望的是說我們要如何就是真正的可以去管理還有協助"},{"start":9533.642,"end":9537.107,"text":"不只是說設在那邊,好看的用不著,這樣也不好,所以變成花政府的錢。所以我們希望說,我們部長都說,就是我們有這樣子的一個優化的拼顧的環境,讓我們的企業可以去應用。"},{"start":9552.165,"end":9568.465,"text":"也有讓說國外的移工他可以透過這樣子就不用透過仲介嘛所以雖然有這樣子的話都請部長在大概兩週內可不可以給我就是一個書面的報告完整的是說我們有這樣子的"},{"start":9569.488,"end":9596.913,"text":"有這個機制有這樣子的的完整的讓我們可以幫你去做宣傳當我們的企業才能應用的到不是政府放在那一邊說我有啊我有啊因為我有但是你用不用是您打的事這樣子就不行所以說你說有但是為什麼部主沒有沒有想要去用就是因為不便民嘛才會造成這樣嘛所以現在"},{"start":9599.193,"end":9621.166,"text":"如果是有這樣子的機制又有那麼好的環境的話為什麼我們今年就逃跑移工四年移工就達到八萬多人所以這個部分我們請教一下我們的部長你是如何去解決說這八萬移工在台灣如果他們生病了"},{"start":9622.006,"end":9649.709,"text":"他們就傳染是全國的人誰要負責所以你覺得說有沒有什麼策略來去解決說逃跑移工因為我們有失聯移工的申請問題還有我們的僱主有要去有時候就是為了兩個恩怨去報說他逃跑給他去休假兩天但是又去報他說失聯也有"},{"start":9650.57,"end":9666.005,"text":"所以這個地方要我們可以去協助,所以這個部分有沒有說移工失聯的部分,部長有沒有什麼解決的方案?不好意思,因為時間的關係,我簡單講,第一個,失聯為什麼會突然暴增到八萬多,是因為這三年的疫情。"},{"start":9667.607,"end":9686.247,"text":"這個邊境管制他進不來,進不來國內又缺工,所以這個造成……進不來缺工為什麼還要逃跑呢?缺工就不用再逃跑嘛,有雜班就不會再逃跑嘛,因為是有問題才會逃跑嘛對不對?不是有問題啦,不一定是他有,不一定是顧著,有時候說是移工希望追求更高的薪資啦。"},{"start":9687.388,"end":9690.55,"text":"因為疫情的時候大家都缺工,所以工作更多不會去逃跑的。這樣你是保證說現在已經沒有疫情,所以我們的移工逃跑力就不會掙扎了嗎?所以在疫情逃跑,然後最後一個問題,因為時間的問題"},{"start":9708.38,"end":9722.98,"text":"最後一個問題主席給我一分鐘最後一個問題我們關於就是現在我們現在地震的時候是不是大家看一下我們是大家看這個照片"},{"start":9723.661,"end":9741.837,"text":"是不是我們要去看護工的時候我們要去照顧這個移工因為地震他還爬上去保護他的雇主但是呢但是呢我們是家庭看護還有家庭幫傭是沒有勞保的"},{"start":9743.182,"end":9769.702,"text":"這個保障沒有勞保的所以這個部分的話誰來保障他們這個部分我們請部長一定要去尊重一定要去對因為在家庭看護工他沒有保障的這個部分所以呢我們希望說我們大家看護的病座沒有這樣子的保障還有我們最近我們是沒有保障還有說我們的"},{"start":9770.883,"end":9786.197,"text":"台灣的看護工也沒有我們現在是不是我們台灣的看護工是不是現在我們都什麼都講我們薪水漲但是看護工的薪水沒有漲所以很多的看護工的對他們說漲的一點點還有他們就說比如說我來這邊這一家裡我照顧一個小時"},{"start":9793.524,"end":9793.804,"text":"以上報告,謝謝。"},{"start":9822.23,"end":9826.715,"text":"好謝謝麥玉珍委員的發言接下來請洪孟楷委員發言主席謝謝麻煩請許部長請許部長"},{"start":9844.269,"end":9867.44,"text":"部長好,即將卸任,媒體早上也有請教你,你也講是說新接任的勞動部長可能會面臨到兩大問題,缺工跟保險的部分,是不是?我想大白話,本席之前也講過說在這集委員會裡面跟你好幾次的一個質詢也講到是說至少我覺得你算是一個可以溝通的人,"},{"start":9868.38,"end":9875.85,"text":"那既然可以溝通我想在你卸任之前我想要確認一下既然你也提到缺工本期特別去找一下缺工這個議題從什麼時候開始?"},{"start":9878.049,"end":9904.6,"text":"媒體報導三年前就開始2021年就可以找到有工廠無人座相關報導我們也聽到很多的產業界給我們的問題醫院開不出床不是沒有病床是沒有護理人員餐廳沒有包廂不是沒有包廂是沒有服務人員飯店沒有房間並不是因為沒有房間而是因為沒有房務人員所以"},{"start":9906.428,"end":9933.993,"text":"到底現在我們臺灣面臨到的問題過去三年過去了我們現在缺工的總數有沒有統計我們到底缺多少工大概我們大概23、4萬左右23、4萬那過去這三年我們的努力到底是缺工人數越來越多還是有減少目前看起來好像還是沒有這個整個人口結構的問題其實現在不是只有臺灣"},{"start":9935.413,"end":9954.991,"text":"全世界先進國家都面臨同樣的問題但我的意思是說我們這些面臨人口結構我們還是要想方法像過去我們一直認為說這些壯世代我們的勞參率其實比起韓日是低的那我現在怎麼樣來"},{"start":9956.152,"end":9982.558,"text":"也想要延長這個退休年齡嗎?不是延長退休年齡,不需要延長因為很多是,我跟委員說他是早退,譬如說委員,很多55歲我們發現55歲退出職場的,非常多我們在55歲之前的勞參率跟韓日差不多55歲以後,欸?差了20%那我就一直在想說,我怎麼把這些20%的,我開發個一半就好了"},{"start":9983.356,"end":9984.057,"text":"我們國內的這些"},{"start":10000.679,"end":10005.962,"text":"是,部長請你講到重點這也是本席要提到就是說很多人會講說現在少子化、高齡化這兩個議題造成說我們國內好像很多工作沒有辦法有人做"},{"start":10028.214,"end":10051.756,"text":"但是重點就在於是壯世代的這一個部分怎麼樣能夠讓年長者其實相對來講我們現在的一個生理年齡跟身體年齡其實是比以前我們的傳統概念來的來的不一樣的所以這一點也是本席也跟我們在座包括吳承存委員啊包括很多委員我們也希望是說政府應該要重視未來壯世代這一塊"},{"start":10053.698,"end":10063.489,"text":"所以報告委我們大概就是從去年開始我們就有一個三年計畫針對壯世代的部分我們希望至少這三年可能多增加30萬的勞動力進到職場來然後"},{"start":10069.982,"end":10096.02,"text":"有辦法嗎?我覺得我們有信心啦因為我們其實是雙管齊下那讓這個不管是在...部長我們希望看到的是真實的狀況因為其實本席剛剛都特別提到2021年就已經缺工了到現在2024年還在講缺工甚至部長要離開前給下一任部長最大的忠告、提點就是缺工"},{"start":10097.261,"end":10110.398,"text":"代表過去三年的時間並沒有完全的解決問題甚至並沒有讓國人感受到你有在解決問題報告委員其實2021那時候還在疫情期間其實會有很多因素去影響到"},{"start":10112.579,"end":10132.527,"text":"來這樣子三年的計畫你今天給本席個資料到底這三年計畫目前進度以及半年進行好不好那拉回來另外一個部分講到缺工我也講到是說對於勞動力的保障夠不夠這是本席過去到現在也一直在關注所謂外送員的專訪"},{"start":10134.246,"end":10157.896,"text":"到目前為止不要說外送員專法從2022年我們要提出勞動部就有講過說希望能夠制定外送員勞動權益指導原則到目前沒有下文只有各縣市政府有做一個指引各縣市政府的議會有通過自治條例但是我們勞動部最應該處理的勞動權益指導原則沒有出來"},{"start":10158.837,"end":10179.614,"text":"報告委員這個我們在整個當然專法那部分我跟委員報告真的會比較難一點為什麼因為現在全世界就只有西班牙有實施專法可是實施以後發現並不理想就是說不管在這個勞工端或者雇主端都會有一些不是他們原來想像的那麼OK"},{"start":10180.555,"end":10207.668,"text":"但是你的權力指導原則為什麼一直沒有出來?權力指導原則我們其實有研擬但是我們現在比較重點就是放在幫助這些平台跟外送員做對話因為他們很多問題就是說其實他需要因為一個原則是就是說原則嘛但是他們更需要是實質的解決所以我們常常會遇到說比如說他突然新他的外送單的報酬被砍了那你說定原則"},{"start":10209.059,"end":10233.73,"text":"那原則他我們就不准啊可是還是沒有解決所以我們現在部長這就是我下一個問題啊如果你又沒有專法然後你又說原則無法去約束比如說平台跟外送員之間的一個權利不對等那我們到底要怎麼解決而且更重要的是我們建立一個對話平台更重要的是我就正想講現在有對話但是沒有有效的溝通啊"},{"start":10234.19,"end":10258.726,"text":"是各說各話這是你講的在各說各話的情況就是很多的外送員從去年到今年都講了他們的外送權益越來越少外送的薪資報酬越來越少當然這個外送平台跟外送員的權利不是傳統的勞資關係但是從以往一開始外送員一單可以有70塊到現在兩單40塊還有變成是整單0塊"},{"start":10262.648,"end":10280.056,"text":"那就變成是平台的這個待遇平台的這個報酬的狀況他可以自己來做調整但是外送員沒有辦法去反抗外送員沒有辦法去爭取啊那這樣你覺得這算是有效合理的溝通嗎這個問題齁有時候就是說英文叫外送員多啦變成"},{"start":10281.837,"end":10300.23,"text":"競爭這也是一個一種競爭啦過去可能外送員少他的報酬他每一單的報酬會比較高一點可是當當你外送員多的時候那你可能市場這些這些消費者單子少的時候就會產生可能會報酬會變少但是我們都"},{"start":10301.271,"end":10301.831,"text":"我差點都以為你要講出蔡總統的名言"},{"start":10315.694,"end":10331.389,"text":"你剛講說外送員以前外送員少現在外送員多所以平台他怎麼砍是因為他可以有事無口反正有勞動我都很怕你講出之前蔡總統明年那外送員你自己去跟你的老闆講啊沒有沒有我沒有講這樣"},{"start":10333.911,"end":10344.243,"text":"我知道跟你說有些狀況 有沒有注意到外送員的權益持續被減少那我們做了什麼努力 既然我們的原則沒有出來專法也沒有辦法立"},{"start":10347.449,"end":10374.492,"text":"我們到底現在有什麼樣是可以至少取得一個平衡我其實站在天秤的兩邊外送平台是一個技術的產業是一個APP方便大家民眾的生活能夠讓餐廳有外送平台以及外送員來幫助也讓餐廳有一些業績的一個增加尤其在疫情期間確實有增加外送員也可以選擇自己的工作但是如果說當某一個天秤請向那邊"},{"start":10375.413,"end":10375.573,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":10398.959,"end":10424.745,"text":"有沒有要繼續推動還是只是一個空話還是能夠定期外送員跟外送平台勞動部來當公卿勞動部定期找外送員外送平台來喝咖啡我們現在就是我們是正式會議啊我們每次都針對這些爭議的議題都會邀有定期嗎?有有有定多久?"},{"start":10427.443,"end":10449.314,"text":"有會議記錄供給大家看嗎?供給工會那是不是能夠因為本席在質詢的時候要相關資料其實是要不到的其實是沒有看到公開的其實是沒有展現的我覺得這一點這一點部分您剛也提到了這就是外送員有那麼多"},{"start":10450.434,"end":10474.73,"text":"外送員他也想要了解他的權益那如果說定期有開會剛也講了一個月到一個半月真的有開會的話那也應該適時的要揭露讓所有外送員可以知道外送平台就那幾家但是外送員進進出出我覺得這一點也是讓國人了解說到底他們有什麼樣的權利如果說真的進入之後勞動部是可以真真正正當外送員的靠山"},{"start":10475.903,"end":10491.782,"text":"所以未來是不是能夠把我們的定期的會議紀錄也公開在勞動部的網頁?這可以做得到吧?對 給工會啊但我現在講的是說外送員他畢竟他不是每一個人都有參加工會"},{"start":10493.325,"end":10509.263,"text":"那你照理講而且很多人可能目前還沒有那如果說有的話其實我覺得你既然有開會你也既然覺得是說你們是可以持平的一端來找外送平台供外送的話你的會議紀錄就可以公開這樣可以嗎?可以多久可以把之前的會議紀錄一起公開?"},{"start":10512.404,"end":10521.254,"text":"一個禮拜 勞動部的網站上面把我們過去的會議記錄以及未來定期開會可以放在網路上讓人家來搜尋"},{"start":10527.432,"end":10530.296,"text":"臨時提案有鑒於我國不當勞動行為裁決委員會乃勞資爭議處理法在98年全文修正後所開始運作之法定邊阻"},{"start":10542.834,"end":10561.392,"text":"然而經查勞動部自該時施行裁決作業契金近年雖辦理有視訊作業要點和勞工及工會出席裁決會議交通費要點二項規定卻仍然無法有效解決外縣市人員所遇參與不便利及權益不平等之施政缺失"},{"start":10562.253,"end":10577.72,"text":"原此特決議請勞動部針對在中南部設置不當勞動行為裁決嚴易可行性於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝、王育敏、邱振軍宣讀完畢"},{"start":10579.194,"end":10592.789,"text":"請問行政單位有沒有意見?謝謝陳委員的書面提案。我在這裡可不可以請委員我們就改幾個字。就是在到主第三行,設置不當勞動行為裁決委員會加三個字。就是在裁決之後加委員會。"},{"start":10599.637,"end":10609.926,"text":"以上我們以下的其他沒有意見同意同意好好謝委那就照文字修正通過好那臨時提案全部處理完畢接下來請吳立華委員"},{"start":10626.16,"end":10632.052,"text":"謝謝主席。有請勞動部長以及原民會。請許部長。請原民會羅處長。"},{"start":10634.708,"end":10663.123,"text":"務委員好部長好部長其實我們今天來討論就業服務法上路超過三十年我們也已經有了原住民的工作權保障法但是呢根據我們原民會所做的一個資料111年度的資料原住民的就業現況其實還是低於全體國民很多以工作收入來講大約少了一萬元"},{"start":10664.324,"end":10690.555,"text":"家庭年平均比全體國民少了52萬低收入戶的比率全體國民的4倍從事非典型工作的也比全體國民高出10%我想這個現況其實是告訴我們還有很多帶努力的空間為了這種改善就業的困境其實我們也都多方的努力以這個就業服務法第12條來講"},{"start":10692.236,"end":10710.787,"text":"他設置這個法條20多年他說原住民人口達2萬人以上的縣市得設立因應原住民族特殊文化的原住民公立就業服務機構那我也質詢很多次之後謝謝部長您勇於認識"},{"start":10712.068,"end":10737.225,"text":"您在2022年就正式的函文說確認發布補助地方政府設置原住民族就業服務據點計畫那非常感謝您因為我們的目標就是希望能夠有一個公立的就業服務機構那目前從去年到今年我看到也有屏東、高雄、台中、新北、台北、桃園6個縣市提出那也許未來還會陸陸續續有更多的縣市提出"},{"start":10742.368,"end":10769.716,"text":"我在這邊就是要特別的來講一下因為這個原民會的就業服務據點辦公室他用的是原住民的綜合發展基金因為以前雖然救福法有這麼規定但是沒有人設立沒有地方政府願意所以原民會也就用原住民綜合發展基金來扛這件事情在各地也都設有這樣的一個就業服務員跟救福站"},{"start":10770.296,"end":10790.775,"text":"那現在他的預算來源是公務預算還有那一些人家繳交的貸金、支息等等來做這些事那我想先請教一下我們的部長就是未來我們的目標是要有公立的原住民就業服務機構部長您可不可以談一下這個未來我們可以繼續怎麼做繼續推進這個我想我們都有"},{"start":10796.024,"end":10796.284,"text":"所以這個方向"},{"start":10822.771,"end":10828.286,"text":"我們還是要去談那未來勞動部有什麼樣的方向其實我上個月有找兩個部會來談過了"},{"start":10831.154,"end":10851.928,"text":"我們基本上不反對啦。我是覺得地方政府要組織員了,他要編啦。那勞動部可不可以極力幫忙主張啊?因為這是救福法裡面規定的啊。對對對,這個沒有問題啊。沒有問題。我們會支持啊。好,那原民會...對,勞動部你們是主管機關啊,要支持啊。我們是主管機關,沒有錯,但是..."},{"start":10858.092,"end":10871.309,"text":"現在變成立委一直質詢一直質詢啊對 我們也在鼓勵他們啦我也沒辦法強迫說你一定要怎麼樣因為畢竟他還是但是要有主張啦就像你找到方法了嘛我們就往前推進一步嘛 對不對好 那請教一下園民會羅處長齁"},{"start":10874.993,"end":10892.731,"text":"那現在原住民就業基金它的支出成本就降低了嘛因為勞動部這邊也有設置這樣的那我們也朝向目標是整病未來成為公立的救福中心可是我希望的就是我們原住民族重發基金啊"},{"start":10893.971,"end":10916.943,"text":"應該是要讓他去做一些促進就業的事情因為我們剛剛第一章就看了就就業情況很糟都已經民國113年了我是說要多做一些就業促進的事情我之前也質詢在原民會就是我講的安心上工讓他常設常態化因為部落很多青年要返鄉"},{"start":10918.024,"end":10938.43,"text":"他不足以支撐他做的這些什麼露營廠事業那也有很多部落的高齡還有工作能力的我更更加捨不得的是那些很多洗腎的病患他根本沒有辦法出去找到工作但是他還有工作能力那我不曉得這個安心就業計畫現在做的怎麼樣"},{"start":10940.794,"end":10954.435,"text":"目前我們是加強宣導有關勞動部的益後改善、缺工、擴大不要講益後改善啦,我說長社啦對,會協助主任升級,但是本會也會有一個就業獎勵的措施,擴大原住民勞工獎勵,最高會一萬元"},{"start":10955.436,"end":10971.808,"text":"那其他我們會按照委員的一個指示來去做那希望就是早一點啦我還是要個報告好了好不好一個月好好的研擬那主席我再問一個問題好嗎那今天我們談到原住民工作權保障法他的修法重點你們說是擴大禁用範圍你們也預估會增加13796個工作機會但是我知道的是這是公部門嘛"},{"start":10980.134,"end":11008.191,"text":"那你是要擴大招考我也都沒有意見齁能不能補得滿至少他就是開了很大的工作職缺我現在比較關心的是私部門的那在這邊我們看到原住民工作權保障法有提到公共工程及政府採購的保障但是我要說看得到吃不到啦我光是提一個你應該就知道了雖然原住民工作保障法第11條這麼說可是我們來看一下原民會齁這幾年工程會的統計資料我看到哇"},{"start":11008.891,"end":11033.676,"text":"很那個下降捏逐年下降捏就是原住民承攬到的案件越來越沒有捏然後跟其他的像可能你們會說履約地點要在原鄉可是台北市政府沒有沒有原鄉啊台北市沒有原鄉啊但是他還是可以去做的原因是因為他的履約地點他會放在原鄉例如去郊遊到花蓮這樣了解嗎"},{"start":11035.856,"end":11054.541,"text":"那我覺得原民會作為一個原住民族事務的主管機關結果呢比沒有原鄉的台北市比一般的縣市做的成績還要低的時候那個就很不應該囉那我們來看一下你看這個有一個是什麼圖卡提升原住民文化敏感度的圖卡規劃設計勞務採購案"},{"start":11057.102,"end":11069.877,"text":"偏偏旅業地點寫新北市而且還寫非原民地區你叫原住民廠商你叫這些個人要怎麼去得標啊你看另外一個最近辦的這個督魯他的預算原額是27777萬"},{"start":11073.101,"end":11087.996,"text":"超過150萬公告那你怎麼讓原住民廠商參與這種事情多麼可惜這個原住民來做跟一般廠商做絕對是不一樣我在這邊只是要提醒希望我們原民會要想方設法"},{"start":11088.416,"end":11108.003,"text":"原住民的人也是一個產業 廠商的培育也是一個產業 如果我們不能夠帶頭 我們怎麼有辦法讓我們的就業率 讓我們的年平均所得提高 原民會這個部分也希望給我一個月內提出一個報告 那這個部分最後就是提醒 這一次的災後很多災民"},{"start":11109.163,"end":11128.632,"text":"都失業啦 那勞動部有開兩千個啦 原民會好像沒有明確的數字但是我就是希望不要設限 核實的提供這一些 像很多人在飯店工作都沒工作只要他來登記需要工作 確實是災民 我希望勞動部、原民會都不要限額 可以嗎好 沒問題齁 謝謝部長 謝謝處長 謝謝主席"},{"start":11135.292,"end":11144.639,"text":"謝謝吳立華委員。在這邊做宣告,中午不休息,質詢到登記委員發言結束,再三會。現在請牛許廷委員發言。好,謝謝主席。勞動部長有請。請許部長。"},{"start":11159.707,"end":11174.434,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了今天談就業服務法這個談歧視禁止跟外國勞動力的權益保障那第一個問題是歧視禁止的問題這個就業歧視分成直接歧視差別對待跟間接歧視就差別影響這兩種類型"},{"start":11176.115,"end":11200.449,"text":"那當然這個禁止就業歧視法這個實施運作已經還蠻多年那這種一望即知的這種直接性的這種歧視基本上已經大幅減少了對不對這有點成績但相對來講相對來講有的時候我們講上有政策下有對策這個直接歧視變少可是這個隱匿難以明確辨識的案件類型叫做這個間接歧視的案件反而"},{"start":11200.909,"end":11227.398,"text":"有變多的這個趨勢比如說顧主爭財的廣告我們現在談平等的時候就會說他不會講說限年齡限性別因為這叫直接歧視可是他會說這個壯志青年女性家這樣子一個訊息等於打擦邊球那個客觀上來講其實對於特定群體的就業機會就造成什麼負面影響進而剝奪了勞動市場平等參與的一個機會那按照主管機關勞動部長認定應該屬於間接歧視對不對"},{"start":11230.399,"end":11257.745,"text":"是好有這樣一個狀況嘛那大家現在面對這樣子的一個問題的時候你勞動部的解決方式是什麼?你有沒有一些積極的作為?呃 包委如果像這種當然要看個案啦那種間接的部分齁就是看個案然後其實每個地方政府都有就業就期會好如果有人來申訴的話齁其實就是可以召開這個就期會的會議來我是希望做一下的統整然後我們也會來宣導齁"},{"start":11259.005,"end":11277.321,"text":"對 因為你宣導嘛表示你一定有做資料的收集你一定有彙整你大概也會知道常見的這種間接歧視的樣態是什麼那既然你都知道這樣的樣態的時候其實你可以比照比如說有些時候我們講說這個管食安的時候就不能廣告不實他就有一個檢核表哪些方向是採線的你要你至少有一個框架出來嘛"},{"start":11277.861,"end":11294.71,"text":"那相對來講這種避免這個就業的間接歧視的這個相對來講的廣告的檢核表我認為這是勞動部可以做他其實難度不高成本也不高稍微做一下整理然後你拿這個表格去做宣導是不是讓這些廣告業者或什麼的他也有法可以遵循嗎可不可以這部分我希望"},{"start":11295.71,"end":11324.313,"text":"勞動部來做一個研擬跟處理啦好不好這小的事情但我想這對於這個反歧視這件事情我想是有正面意義的那第二個要談外國這個勞動力的權益保障現在當然我們去談經濟發展的時候大家一方面我們也常常在這個委員會談到就是嘆嘆的焦慮對不對但相對來講我們在勞動部質詢的時候談到人權焦慮啊因為現在大家都希望說用一個好的人權標準去保障勞工的權益那這個有這樣子的一個機制然後去促進所謂的"},{"start":11325.034,"end":11351.714,"text":"自由貿易所以它過去叫道德加分題但現在叫做法律必考題因為你如果沒有完成這些東西其實在對產業相對來講競爭力就會受到一些影響現在我們去談外國勞動力引入的問題比如說美國責任商業聯盟RBA就有講零付費行為準則以及等等諸如此類的過去都從建議開始變成強力要求換言之我們在引入外籍的移工"},{"start":11352.795,"end":11377.148,"text":"投入本國的勞動就業市場的時候這部分應該是未來勞動部門面對很大的一個挑戰所以我們現在政府明文禁止收仲介費對不對因為避免仲介變成形同人口販運嘛 對不對但是現在一樣嘛我剛剛講上有政策下有對策現在不收仲介費叫每月服務費就一樣嘛他有換湯不換藥那個不一樣那個仲介費跟服務那個服務費沒有勉強的那個就是說你有服務才"},{"start":11377.648,"end":11395.946,"text":"才有啦對但是實務上的機制來講他常常就變成我換一個方式來做轉嫁我就提醒一下那第二個我今天要談主要的問題啦是說既然我們未來都有這樣的需求我們終要面對這樣子的一個問題那我們是不是應該多你勞動部其實有提供所謂的直接聘僱的的政策方案對不對"},{"start":11396.707,"end":11416.195,"text":"但是以我們在這個基層的了解其實程序還是非常的繁瑣啦所以以至於實務上來講大概是方便嘛那當然仲介業者存在的道理就是因為解決這些以南雜但是我可以理解但是既然未來我們會面對這樣子的一個問題的時候我是要求勞動部這邊啊你至少在直接聘僱的這樣子一個機制裡面你要有一些政策的誘因嘛"},{"start":11416.795,"end":11426.504,"text":"你要去鼓勵企業、鼓勵商家或者是鼓勵個人來講你可以多加的使用直接的聘僱去降低這個中間的紛擾這個方向部長應該不會反對吧?"},{"start":11426.504,"end":11437.075,"text":"不會好不好那方法是什麼呢?我們現在有職聘的服務中心對不對?但你只是到有一個窗口去做事那本質上... 不止喔那個我們其實不會說只是一個窗口收文件而已"},{"start":11437.495,"end":11449.045,"text":"但是具體的程序因為我們有去明查暗訪實際上程序來講很繁瑣有沒有什麼其他的精進措施可以減低行政成本我們持續在檢討然後我們最近這個月內也會在開會邀請相關的團體相關的專家學者大家就這個怎麼樣的精進"},{"start":11459.674,"end":11466.777,"text":"這個經濟方案是希望來做啦就是說提高企業在執聘機制的一些誘因嘛比如說給予政策補貼、優惠或什麼的你節省他一部分的成本去鼓勵他走執聘的這一條管道這個我覺得這是可以可以被商量那第二個就是我們也不是全盤否定仲介業者但既然仲介業者存在你總要有一套完整的評鑑、檢查跟集合的機制嘛這個優劣分級要更清楚你們現在有具體的分級機制嗎"},{"start":11485.663,"end":11503.224,"text":"好不好 這部分也要同時來做強化就是說鼓勵職聘然後中間要納款要越來越處理嘛我們才能夠因應這個這個未來這個所謂的人權焦慮的這個問題啦這我想不管部長也可能下一站不在勞動部但是我想這麼多的事務官都來聽背信這該做的事情是不分"},{"start":11504.906,"end":11505.226,"text":"謝謝牛許廷委員接下來請張祺凱委員"},{"start":11538.663,"end":11539.824,"text":"謝謝主席。請阿村保定。"},{"start":11568.51,"end":11570.31,"text":"一群在臺灣沒有身分的人,移工為什麼要失聯?"},{"start":11595.091,"end":11609.078,"text":"提出這個就是要探討這個問題我看你們也提了很多的相應的這個措施嘛包括你說你要召開這個跨部會的這個合作要加強輔導僱主、加強選工避免僱主的不當對待你看這個人可憐的失聯移工撞死了一個年輕人你看他應該是沒有駕照對不對也沒有強制的這個保養所以他也沒辦法理賠啊"},{"start":11623.192,"end":11650.366,"text":"這事情很嚴重耶是 我們 報告委員 這個我們會來 協助啦看有什麼方式可以 要怎麼協助啦 我這個會啊 會後我請同仁來好 你也很有名就輸 這個人民關鍵的事情我們都很善良的人 無論如何我也跟他幫忙第一你看這個移工出了這個問題 這失聯的這個移工他起訴審判完 大概 可能連審判都沒有 大概整個遣還嘛他沒有保險 你看這個人 這年輕人"},{"start":11653.03,"end":11663.937,"text":"家裏面大概不可能得到什麼禮賠啦好不好 想一下看怎麼幫好 幫你倒三缸好好 就請委員跟我們講這個案的外來事務那第一件事就是 各位參議員 古年代的公料"},{"start":11664.892,"end":11665.752,"text":"我看你們的那天"},{"start":11689.11,"end":11692.571,"text":"你提的是說人數有在趨緩嗎?你剛才說還有人嗎?我看這個趨勢圖我現在查的是你勞動部這就是你勞動部的資料你看喔這個圖我看了兩個地方我是"},{"start":11704.608,"end":11724.01,"text":"會覺得是大問題第一就是2021的3月到了2022年的8月向充電報紙要衝上去嘛 對不對這是第一個 這可是疫情啦可是最嚴重的 我覺得痛嚼中的 這個趨勢就是痛嚼中的 什麼就是衝上去之後3年居高不下"},{"start":11725.441,"end":11750.915,"text":"對嗎?就標示說你9年在日本城 你說要去處理啊現在結果人越來越多 現在創歷史新高現在是8萬5千2百2十九個委員這是包括不是移工啦 包括其他外國人士都包括在裡面你說不是只有4年的移工嗎?這不是只有移工喔 這不是只有移工喔他這裡包括預期居留的外來人口 外來人口不是只有移工現在剋掉多大一個人 那個4年的移工你現在的統計是多少?"},{"start":11753.757,"end":11755.5,"text":"我剛剛扣掉齁,大概..."},{"start":11762.662,"end":11787.082,"text":"我跟委員報告現在如果以失聯發生的移工像111年其實人數是最高一年有4.1萬發生失聯但是因為經過我們跟移民組因為要加強做一些查詢112年就隔年已經降到一年降到3.1萬就是從4.1萬降到3.1萬這第一個第二個比率因為比率會受到整體人數因為我們現在疫後因為一直在引進"},{"start":11788.123,"end":11811.064,"text":"因為移工人數增加之下但是我們的失聯率還是改善下降我們現在失聯率已經從最高5.96%現在已經降到百分之這個4.2% 不好意思近來比較多嘛 失聯比例是算是降可是人數看起來還沒走對不對 但是人數也降 不好意思我先說兩個重點好不好第一個當然我知道那時候衝上去後來是因為疫情嘛 所以後來疫情結束以後你們做一些改善嘛"},{"start":11812.064,"end":11835.896,"text":"可是老實講人數還是多的我現在同關心的其實是第一部分就是說你雖然比例可能有降低可是人數還是多嘛對不對我們不要讓人家第一個不要誤解了這個順目字第二不要讓人家覺得好像粉飾太平或者沒有沒有解決問題這樣就很好我以為我們絕對不會粉飾太平我們的面對問題這是跟大家講的說的確是有降因為要看失聯率比較準比例有降啊人數可能沒有對不對"},{"start":11837.497,"end":11860.778,"text":"因為進來的人比較多,跑掉的也多,所以...對,但是我們持續會努力,因為這個事情可能還要一段時間,你就像疫情之後,它也是延續了第三年,哇,全部都撐起來。那我們現在邊境管制解封了,我們現在各種,包括該開放我們的開放,還有一些媒合,包括提供家庭康復工的薪資待遇等等,"},{"start":11862.079,"end":11872.508,"text":"我覺得我有信心後面會持續降下來。會持續降。會持續降。那我們先來看一下怎麼...所以不是說我們這樣就覺得不滿意。絕對不滿意。絕對覺得不滿意。我們繼續努力。部長,你人要怎麼找回來?你知道四年的移工第三所在嗎?你怎麼找人?"},{"start":11882.315,"end":11909.344,"text":"因為這個部分大概其實我們知道現在大部分都是在營造農業最多啦營造農業茶器當然茶器是移民署他們的選擇啦我們當然是配合的單位國安團隊也配合啦這個部分當然我意思是如果知道就算了快點處理啊 對不對一直留在那裡移民署我們當然不希望這種不幸的事情再發生啦 對不對如果說他們在那裡也可憐恭喜大家你如果看你說那10年的移工"},{"start":11910.896,"end":11932.125,"text":"對﹐"},{"start":11932.245,"end":11951.953,"text":"移民署我們他這邊也加強查緝啦包括像去年就鼓勵他們自動到岸等等這個我們都各種多元的措施來改革這個問題這個問題就是我們都是報告會阿聖部長你現在要離開這邊我們來做一個叫做找回失聯移工的計畫好不好會負責嗎來來看看來半年來最少要把10%的這個失聯移工找回來今年這標準應該不高吧"},{"start":11963.005,"end":11986.545,"text":"20%可以這樣嗎?我們訂個目標好不好?我們來跟這個委員這個是一個很好的一個期許我們來跟移民署這回來拍拼好不好?好不好?訂這個目標你給我個計畫我本來想說一個院內提計畫你就照去了我早早配在那裡沒關係啦這樣沒有啦業務單位還在然後新的部長會來不用煩惱你要不要早一點你520離開之前你給我這個計畫"},{"start":11991.149,"end":12004.003,"text":"這是一個月內給我這個計劃好不好這個計劃你怎麼訂當然就是要早一點去知道人在哪裡早一點去把它找回來那第二個目標我們非常明確喔半年要降10%一年降20%所以要求應該不高吧 對不對"},{"start":12005.165,"end":12014.034,"text":"我們跟移民署來討論,因為這是要跟移民署來討論的。對啦,討論完,第一,各位來,你要給我一個機會。啊,第一,裡面最重要的就是這兩個重點,好不好?好,好,可以齁?各位來齁。你等下隔夜我馬上再找你來。這個案就這樣定囉,OK?至少這個目標要達到。一年內要降20%,把這個事業移民權...其實這好事情啦。"},{"start":12030.169,"end":12032.149,"text":"謝謝張祺凱委員接下來請吳春成委員發言那個部長請許部長對許部長"},{"start":12057.04,"end":12082.743,"text":"剛才阿凱在問說一個月要請你教,一個月你還在嗎?你會教嗎?一個月內,我講我這時間太白了,全部幾天啊。對阿凱。我今天請幾號?245號。我今天請何部長。你確定會去高雄嗎?你會去高雄嗎?高雄嗎?有確定嗎?我住高雄啊。我要回家啊。我20以後就回家。回家做什麼?"},{"start":12084.853,"end":12099.767,"text":"我要問一下部長的下一步啊我要先休息一下因為有6年多我有看到說休息為了走更長的路對啊對啊然後我再好好想一想我的壯士在第三人生要做什麼對所以我今天就是要問你這個問題因為你將心比心"},{"start":12103.01,"end":12131.641,"text":"對不對?像這個我覺得這個退休突然通知好像時間也太短了突然通知然後人生的一個計畫來我們看一下就是這一點我還是這個一來我想今天也不是要質詢最主要是表達慰勞之意謝謝這個部長真的辛苦6年多在這個崗位上的工作"},{"start":12132.941,"end":12151.077,"text":"但是的確未來路很長,你現在很年輕啊,你壯世代啊,一定要規劃第三人生,而且你要做勞動部長一定要以身作則,做為典範,因為我們現在退休的人有600萬人,"},{"start":12152.478,"end":12178.681,"text":"就像這樣我們整個的政府都在為60歲以前的社會來打造社會你打開60歲這扇門一推出去就是這個景象一片沙漠一片沙漠然後我來問部長請問這個60退休以後歸誰管政府哪一個部分在管退休以後的人退休"},{"start":12181.113,"end":12205.854,"text":"有沒有人知道?好像幾乎想不出來就表示沒有人在管自己管自己自生自滅這邊有六百萬人所以部長特別是這樣子勞工一輩子都在為我們工作貢獻社會所以在這裡也特別為他們請命就是其實這還沒有退休前"},{"start":12207.624,"end":12229.98,"text":"勞動部應該扛起這個責任好好地來回饋他們不是只想說他們趕快怎麼去退休趕緊照好 對不對你現在心情應該是更加的更加有所感觸但是很多人也跟你一樣這個我們這麼多的退休的族群"},{"start":12231.241,"end":12258.671,"text":"那剛才我也聽到了這個其實我們退休以後大部分的人真的不知道要做什麼一開始不曉得部長你現在心情是很像我們在當兵快要帶退的時候就很開心你現在心情怎麼樣很開心期待還是就是比較輕鬆其實當部長每天都沾沾津津其實大部分的人就是其實不管是去工作工作這個大部分人"},{"start":12259.631,"end":12274.817,"text":"對於退休都沒有規劃都沒有計劃就突然好像有一個中的病毒那這時間到以後就想要退休其實他是沒有任何準備的你看這數據當中都沒有"},{"start":12276.823,"end":12276.943,"text":"接下來﹖"},{"start":12301.617,"end":12314.854,"text":"我們現在的中高齡及高齡者就業促進法裡面有提到這個就是在退休前一年可以提供這個退休的準備調適還有相關的協助"},{"start":12318.288,"end":12343.881,"text":"只有一年的時間,你想我們的孩子要用十年的時間去從第一人生,他要進入第二人生,他要用寒窗十年,無能問考的準備,然後呢,但是我們從第二人生要進入第三人生幾乎都沒有準備,像要跳斷崖一樣就突然想到一天就跳下去了,然後就回不來了。"},{"start":12344.801,"end":12354.572,"text":"那我覺得在這裡去銜接第二人生、第三人生、勞動部我想接下來"},{"start":12355.737,"end":12375.194,"text":"那整個的但是退休的準備也是非常的簡單只是辦理什麼辦理課程、團體活動、個別諮詢就是大概很簡單很簡陋的應付一下那其實這個一年前告知其實我覺得好好把這事情"},{"start":12376.415,"end":12378.117,"text":"對於退休規劃的想法、然後這個對於退休的預遷的準備"},{"start":12403.338,"end":12420.592,"text":"謝謝委員其實去年我們在推這個壯世代的就業的時候就已經有一些想像了然後上一次拜訪委員之後我們其實業務單位都已經把這個納入他們盤點的重點所以這個委員您放心啦我們業務單位一定會全體服務你會交代就是了已經交代了"},{"start":12422.553,"end":12425.975,"text":"接下來請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來請何新淳委員發言"},{"start":12452.981,"end":12456.803,"text":"謝謝主席黃昭薇。我們請部長,請徐部長。何委員好。部長辛苦你了。謝謝。謝謝你這6年來的付出了。那今天我想我們關心的是就業的部分。那你也知道在中部地區很多的這個外籍移工、外籍人士。那剛剛有張委員提到"},{"start":12479.593,"end":12496,"text":"昨天發生的在臺中地區這個臺體大的這個棒球選手學生被失聯的外籍移工撞死那很遺憾很悲傷那失聯的外籍移工如何去做管理我覺得這個剛剛你有承諾要勞動部"},{"start":12499.981,"end":12502.041,"text":"臺灣外國人當然就包含外籍移工這個外籍人士的事故統計"},{"start":12527.286,"end":12550.319,"text":"這個是這個道安資訊網裡面所download下來的前4名越南、印尼、菲律賓、泰國那再下一個居留地以六都之中我們台中它的死亡人數最高受傷人數、死傷人數算是排前3名那死亡人數以台中市為最高"},{"start":12552.061,"end":12568.775,"text":"這牽涉到我們台灣的交通安全協會也曾經指出來現在台灣的移工跟新住民的比例越來越高所以他們常使用的運具、交通法令以及對於台灣獨有的交通特性他們可能不是那麼瞭解"},{"start":12569.335,"end":12591.311,"text":"那是不是要更多加宣導我曾經在我們本委員會也包括質詢過不斷的在倡議其中有一點是什麼外籍移工最常使用的對不起是什麼慢車微型電動二輪車就是我們的電動自行車那這個在我上一屆擔任立委的任內我"},{"start":12592.071,"end":12611.398,"text":"提案也謝謝交通部支持、行政院支持,我們把它納入強制的納保、納管。掛牌啦,對不對?我們在合慣例。但是呢,這還是有一個過渡期。我現在新進的移工、新買的電動自行車我可以完全掌握,因為要求它掛牌。"},{"start":12613.839,"end":12629.845,"text":"但是呢已經在臺灣在我們110年度修法之前已經在臺灣的外籍義工他們所購買的電動自行車有沒有納管有沒有強制掛牌我們正在"},{"start":12630.885,"end":12633.248,"text":"拜託勞動部是不是可以加強宣導因為呢"},{"start":12653.288,"end":12674.335,"text":"外籍人事的事故的統計噪音來在下一個表格你知道嗎我們從這個道安資訊網上面查到的前10名有這麼多狀況這個不知道部長知不知道可能你們還都不知道你們沒有跨部會去盤點這些database這些數據來告訴我們"},{"start":12678.173,"end":12704.502,"text":"我們現在對電動自行車的騎乘交通法規的宣導雖然我們有越南語、泰語、印尼語、英文版但是我們在宣導的時候只宣導什麼你知道嗎這三項要戴安全帽、不可以改裝、不可以載人就只有這三項可是你再回到剛剛我給你的那個頁面我們的造勢前十項的因素是什麼"},{"start":12705.922,"end":12713.147,"text":"沒關係,因為剛剛那個那一頁是交通部提供的,我們就這樣。我建議,我更一步建議,勞動部要跟交通部來建議,更重要的是勞動部可不可以在我們外籍移工要進來台灣之前的一個教育宣導,"},{"start":12727.097,"end":12747.264,"text":"是不是可以加強?因為你們現在入國前的宣導30分鐘的影片裡面包括他的工作權益啦、申訴啦、安全啦各項法規通通擠在這30分鐘的影片那入國後的宣導呢啪啪啪一堆但是呢對交通交通"},{"start":12749.086,"end":12775.497,"text":"臺灣的交通法規、你運具上的騎乘的安全臺灣的這個道路系統等等我們完全沒有宣導我們完全沒有宣導我們其實除了30分鐘的影片以外進來的時候我們也給他守著還有我們會請他加入Line8Line8 那個就隨時我們會有拋訊息像這些我們都可以在我希望啦我們在交通安全、交通法規"},{"start":12776.497,"end":12790.096,"text":"還有對於我們道路系統的一個相關的安全的問題我們可以再多花一點時間用多元的方式去加重宣導加強我們的交通安全的相關的規則宣導"},{"start":12791.658,"end":12810.275,"text":"我覺得這很重要啊拜託拜託啦這個是為了移工好為了新住民好也為了我們大家好因為生命是無價的大家都不希望有任何的交通意外事故不希望有任何的死傷尤其呢這還會牽涉到剛剛有提到一件事"},{"start":12811.618,"end":12824.413,"text":"外籍移工剛剛那個是10點撞死台體大的學生部長你說你身為律師你卸任之後你也願意去幫忙我們現在在交通的這個意外事故後衍生了很多什麼保險理賠的問題"},{"start":12827.566,"end":12849.226,"text":"所以這個都是我希望透過勞動部跟交通部跨部會的合作我們共同的來在事前就預防就宣導就告知不要在事後發生問題我們才來遺憾才來怎麼樣怎麼樣好不好這個是政策是延續的請我們勞動部的同仁們可以加強好不好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":12851.974,"end":12872.615,"text":"好,謝謝何欣淳委員發言。接下來請翁曉琳委員、翁曉琳委員、翁曉琳委員不在。接下來請羅志強委員、羅志強委員、羅志強委員不在。接下來請賴士寶委員、賴士寶委員、賴士寶委員不在。接下來請林倩琪委員、林倩琪委員、林倩琪委員不在。"},{"start":12892.779,"end":12894.2,"text":"接下來請陳盈委員發言。委員好。"},{"start":12923.949,"end":12946.377,"text":"委員長好,我今天問題很簡單,就是原住民男性以這個從事營建工程的這個比例有占了24.76%,那所以每四位原住民勞工就有一位從事這個營造業,那再來就是說因為我們在去年"},{"start":12947.977,"end":12968.948,"text":"我4月12日就提案那因為主要是我們這個政府從112年重新開放這個營造業外籍勞工的引進我們是非常擔心會嚴重排擠到原住民勞工的就業那這不是只是我的擔心而已其實是我想很多的族人都有面臨到這樣的問題"},{"start":12970.529,"end":12997.923,"text":"那所以我特別在去年4月12號有提案要求要補助事業單位促進原住民族就業計畫那到底要等到什麼時候才可以送到勞動部來排案我特別關心這個問題因為不是只有我關心在我提出之後有好幾位原住民的立委不分黨派都緊盯著我然後跟著我的後面一直在很用力的在"},{"start":12999.383,"end":13021.33,"text":"支持這樣的案子所以要請教你這個時程跟委員報告一下那我們在3月的時候有分別派訪就在那個就業安定基金委員會裡面的兩位委員希望徵求委員更多的一些指導來來去完善我們那個計劃那目前就完成這個事項那也做好一些相關的一個方案"},{"start":13021.89,"end":13043.963,"text":"然後我們最近是也透過國會組也希望先到委員那邊先跟委員再去做一個說明所以你就是還沒有排嘛那我現在問你什麼時候要那個啊要送送到勞動部去排案對那如果是這一期的那個就業案第1期開會可以有到我們會以最近的一起的那個部分會先去做一個那個提案"},{"start":13044.823,"end":13059.728,"text":"目前是因為也大概是在交接期間我們也要先跟那個新的主委要去報告這個事情那長官是非常的關心以上所以那個5月520之前是還不會送嗎是應該是在520之後所以你到底什麼時候才要送"},{"start":13060.568,"end":13083.674,"text":"我怕你等到下一任上任又說要等下一任的交接因為已經是差不多研議完成了都差不多了是不是那你可不可以自己給自己一個期許一個日期520交接之後現在那個要接任的主委也在你們會裡面也是常常可以見面你們都很熟嘛就可以先事先"},{"start":13084.634,"end":13089.179,"text":"先討論啊,看他態度怎麼樣。你要看勞動部他們最近召開的那個時間的部分。"},{"start":13104.697,"end":13122.012,"text":"對,我們盡快送。對,你要送給他們,他們才召開,不是嗎?是。你怎麼會說等他們什麼時候召開,你們才要送?應該是半年召開一次。對,我是說...對,那只要有...我這麼簡單問你一個問題,我就是問日期而已,你就不能..."},{"start":13123.959,"end":13143.185,"text":"講個日期嗎?那是不是委員大概差不多在5月、大概在6月的時候我們是希望可以送出去這樣子。所以你到時候還會在社福處是不是?這個應該是先就就要就就乾脆先在交接前你們可以先就先送了嗎?"},{"start":13144.395,"end":13145.036,"text":"問到現在剩下4分鐘。"},{"start":13164.195,"end":13181.898,"text":"好吧,你先下去吧。這個事情我覺得交接前就可以先送的。難道,一樣當主委講的話都不算嗎?做的決定也都不算嗎?你們感功一下嘛。好,謝謝。麻煩再請那個蔡署長"},{"start":13183.991,"end":13210.72,"text":"還有這個蔡署長條平斯黃司長黃司長好我要講一下這個這個我覺得蠻嚴重的問題你們先看一下這個廣告單廣告的傳單這裡面的內容是不是正確然後攸關這個外籍勞工的權益這個這個部分因為你看這個性別平等工作法那個黃司長有沒有第21支一條"},{"start":13213.455,"end":13231.87,"text":"是20條第一項好只有其實他就是沒有21之一啦我沒有講錯我只是問問題沒有就沒有對你也沒有回答錯好那如果傳單內容指的是就是說你這個傳單內容應該就是指21條嘛"},{"start":13235.313,"end":13246.216,"text":"那前提就是外勞先要有參加就業保險那我就要請教外籍勞工他們可不可以參加就業保險"},{"start":13248.379,"end":13269.902,"text":"外籍勞工不能參加就業保障好 謝謝正確那我想我就直接單刀直入的問了吼那所以裡面所提到的這個各項權益有包括有薪產檢、賠產檢還有產假安胎休養跟這個育嬰留職停薪以及這個家庭照顧的部分是不是都適用於外籍勞工"},{"start":13272.777,"end":13298.374,"text":"在這些架的部分有適用那那個運營留持停薪的話會沒有薪資沒有津貼好那因為這個部分更何況有涉及到這個準爸爸準爸爸的權益以及這個家庭所以外籍勞工雙方我要請教說他們雙方可不可以在我國登記結婚"},{"start":13301.431,"end":13319.684,"text":"登記結婚是可以移民法他們可以結婚可不可以登記結婚跟委員報我們了解目前移民署是可以在國內他們在登記的結婚是可以的可以登記結婚對我了解是可以依法你確定是跟委員報勞動部有沒有不同的意見"},{"start":13328.086,"end":13333.691,"text":"你要先弄清楚法規我明明看到這個就業保險法第5條你說可以登記結婚對因為這個過去確實因為有發生過案例我們有請教過移民所那他目前他們在移民法的規定其實沒有排除所以現在是可以登記結婚可以認定準爸爸"},{"start":13354.179,"end":13377.442,"text":"對,但是他不能依這個理由作為他改變他的居留身份我知道我是打問號啦,到底能不能登記結婚這件事情我覺得我們可能都需要再...我們再進一步再把它明確化你們現在要不要先問一下,我一邊質詢你們先問一下我們了解一下是因為我不太清楚是我沒有跟上這個"},{"start":13378.968,"end":13400.435,"text":"呃"},{"start":13400.874,"end":13426.673,"text":"跟委員報告那個外國人生育諮詢服務中心這個部分目前我們應該這個是應該限服對這個裡面是有提到說可以解約後60天申請暫緩轉換雇主那產後60天內可以申請恢復轉換雇主並且延長60天的工作期限我想請教這是真的嗎"},{"start":13427.993,"end":13452.568,"text":"這是說如果這個懷孕移工他跟僱主因為雙方可能因為工作上沒有辦法這樣調配之下他們解約後這個是可以我們有這樣的一個協助好那這個沒有問題那根據這個勞動基準法第50條第一項的規定在生小孩前後可以請八個星期的產假那我們這裡先不討論這個流產假的部分"},{"start":13453.769,"end":13465.137,"text":"我國的勞工產假是這個56天嘛所以外籍勞工的產假有60天比我國的勞工更多嘛他們60我們56天"},{"start":13471.319,"end":13471.759,"text":"我們今天指出的這兩張傳單"},{"start":13500.014,"end":13526.554,"text":"我是覺得因為好像勞動部都在鼓勵外籍勞工在台灣生育而且福利待遇甚至比本國勞工還要更好那這個傳單裡面都有單位名稱還有這個聯絡的方式但也沒有看到勞動部說有任何的這個澄清或說明說明說我國是非常重視外籍勞工的權益而不是鼓勵他們在台灣非法生育"},{"start":13528.135,"end":13554.71,"text":"那所以如果說這些都是真的那這麼重要的這個權益措施你們應該要發佈新聞稿並在這個官網上面公佈嘛而不是讓人家這樣子宣傳讓讓很多人去誤解那所以你後續署長你後續會不會有正式相關的公佈或澄清說明這個委員謝謝謝謝委員提醒我們因為我們也發現這個有些訊息可能不是一個正確"},{"start":13555.27,"end":13577.662,"text":"對啊,大家就覺得太好了,我們都來這裡非法生小孩。好,如果這個資料是錯誤的,那請問有沒有意圖透過協助保障外籍勞動權益而實際上是來獲得你們的安置費用的補助?你會不會有這樣子的聯想?如果有這樣的,我覺得我們應該要去改正它。對啊,我想我們在這裡做一個"},{"start":13579.136,"end":13580.218,"text":"我們再確認一下,如果他們提供"},{"start":13595.217,"end":13595.477,"text":"對於外籍勞工在臺灣"},{"start":13621.807,"end":13626.271,"text":"這個懷孕生小孩這個黑戶寶寶的問題其實已經頭很大了"},{"start":13628.014,"end":13651.331,"text":"勞動部對於說他們的懷孕問題應該要有一個明確的態度不能睜一隻眼閉一隻眼那因為問題出來你們如果問題出來然後再用個案去處理然後因為我們這樣大家會很有壓力嘛因為我們有一個人權的這個大旗壓著所以問題再丟給衛福部跟縣市政府去收尾嘛"},{"start":13652.712,"end":13678.274,"text":"這裡面還有很多涉及到僱主權益啊那我們也不能說啊就這樣我們就要求僱主然後無預期的就是要接受外籍勞工去懷孕生小孩那我也是很好奇就是說以前我們都沒有這方面的問題反而呢在我國更重視他們的權益給了很多的這個更多更好的保障之後呢問題卻是越來越多我想我們去保障並"},{"start":13679.395,"end":13706.69,"text":"提供這個很多的保障是沒有問題那但是但是方法方法如果造成後續很嚴重的問題那我們就要好好的來檢討嗎總不能什麼都推給僱主跟仲介去配合啊好 署長你怎麼看對 我想非常謝謝委員這個其實一定要橫平僱主的權益跟雙方之間我想這個部分在後續我們在相關的一些處理跟規劃我們都會注意這一點"},{"start":13707.41,"end":13732.948,"text":"我想最後我還是在這邊要就是說謝謝蔡署長也給你表達肯定因為畢竟就是說在這個防疫期間你臨危受命那也就是順利解決這個外籍勞工這個防疫破口的隱憂還有一些錯綜複雜的一些政策所以背後都要有署長站在第一線去處理這些問題也有看到你的身影"},{"start":13734.269,"end":13753.5,"text":"我想要做個提醒就是目前外籍勞工懷孕生子的問題那未來只會越來越多那彰化縣這個外國人生育諮詢服務中心不等同說他是一個生育鼓勵中心這是不一樣的所以我要在這裡要求你們一定要"},{"start":13753.78,"end":13753.8,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":13780.455,"end":13793.423,"text":"好 謝謝陳盈委員報告委員會現場林倩琦委員有登記那因為未及發言要求同意於劉建國委員發言結束後發言好那我們現在請劉建國委員發言好 謝謝主席 有請部長請許部長"},{"start":13810.857,"end":13829.893,"text":"劉文豪部長好部長要走了有沒有什麼話要說謝謝啦這個在衛方委員會我在所有的委員的這個指教跟支持下也推動了很多政策跟法案那當然"},{"start":13830.977,"end":13845.897,"text":"還有很多努力的空間 那就留待給下一位我們何部長來繼續努力 謝謝因為剩下時間已經不多了 想讓部長多講一些話你竟然這麼簡短 那我就"},{"start":13846.898,"end":13870.79,"text":"還是要跟部長一起來為這個勞動的權利還有勞工的相關的一些事情要來做一些在最後這僅剩的幾天來做一些努力好不好這個部長看一下這個報導這是在昨天的報導不過這應該是之前的事情之前的那個五戶集團的那個應該是五戶集團那個他們的餐飲結栗啦結栗對"},{"start":13872.932,"end":13889.418,"text":"他是在去年的時候無預警的宣布倒閉嘛那旗下品牌的相關在台的這個門市將近三十間也突然結束營業那許多的這個員工都是臨時收到通知甚至員工上班上到一半被通知不用上班了"},{"start":13890.959,"end":13907.76,"text":"總計大概有500名員工因此失業那根據勞動部有回報本席的辦公室是說相關的員工其實都已經有做妥適的安排與協助餐飲業很缺工所以轉閒轉業沒有問題那個如果他那個之前費其實我們有一些電廠"},{"start":13909.102,"end":13918.211,"text":"我們那個電廠機制也都會保障他們...我知道我知道 這個有回復我清楚了齁但是我現在想說這個是我們回過頭來看啦齁就是說這個集團當時有申請大量解雇嗎?沒有沒有嘛對所以他要處罰對但是負責人已經不見了啦"},{"start":13931.55,"end":13943.724,"text":"因為負責人不見消失了嘛所以你要處罰他也處罰不到嘛好 那我現在回過頭來討論這事情我就要提到叫做預警機制嘛我們大集團裡面是有設這一個預警的機制"},{"start":13946.647,"end":13966.894,"text":"也就是說雇用勞工三十年以上的事業單位有下列情形者之一有相關單位或人員向主管機關通報對不對這其中裡面它包括123基建工資、勞健保、全部或主要營業制部分停工第三決議併購或最近兩年曾發生重大勞資爭議對不對"},{"start":13970.075,"end":13978.957,"text":"這個是我們在大前款裡面第11條有這個設置這樣的一個預警的機制但是它的123款裡面跟剛剛我提的這個這家龍頭的餐飲業的狀態有適用嗎?它都沒有發生這個狀況對嘛所以這個預警機制對這個事件來講是沒有作用的應該是怎麼說嗎?"},{"start":13997.441,"end":14018.071,"text":"我是講第一個樣態因為這家公司他涉入吸金案導致公司受到影響所以他走到這個地步其實坦白講是不難預料是不難預料然後地方的勞工局應該是啟動這個預警機制他要啟動但是依據我們的第11條好像又沒有他這樣的一個樣態要怎麼去啟動然後再來"},{"start":14024.537,"end":14046.147,"text":"整間...剛剛我特別提到負責人是逃獄後整間公司是直接倒閉嘛所以500人是秒失業啦所以才有人上班上到一半被通知說不用上班了那我也覺得很奇怪他是誰去通知他叫他不用上班所以他應該還公司底下還有相關的負責的人嘛應該是... 主管啦 可能是...對嘛 主管是被..."},{"start":14046.687,"end":14065.978,"text":"是接受到誰的命令?應該是接受到負責人的命令或...我是要去提供這樣的一個樣態,等一下我再提供一個樣態給部長跟市長做參考。我調出這個我們大量解雇勞工保護法的一個修法歷程。大量解雇勞工保護法,其實最近一次修法是在104年。"},{"start":14067.614,"end":14081.134,"text":"那個時候是配合主改阿名稱改而已阿然後我會變勞動部嘛再來離那一次之後再往前一次是97年民國97年也就是說從97年到現在已經將近16年"},{"start":14083.958,"end":14106.826,"text":"這個大量解雇勞工保護法並沒有去做任何的修正除了那個主改改名稱而已這個部分要請部長思考跟市長思考一下那同樣在這16年內我們也遇到了這個109年的時候爆發COVID-19的這個疫情當時有申請大量解雇的案件從平均每年200多件"},{"start":14109.107,"end":14129.842,"text":"一口氣飆升到364件將近百分之七十的成長然後通報解雇人數高達一萬四千五百多人依據大解法的第四條規定事業單位大量解雇勞工時應在六十日前提出解雇計畫書只有天災、事變或突發事件"},{"start":14130.902,"end":14156.798,"text":"天災、事變及突發事件才能不受60日的限制但是在109年的疫情唯一規定60日前提出解雇計畫書昭華的案件就有43件110年有32件、111有22件、12有30件、去年還有30件但是我要請教部長這個疫情到底算不算天災?到底算不算事變?到底算不算突發事件?"},{"start":14161.308,"end":14163.649,"text":"市長講不屬於災、天災、事變、土豪事件"},{"start":14185.14,"end":14211.805,"text":"但是部長你對法律也是有你的專業嘛,有你的經驗但是你看這個COVID-19的疫情誰當時料想得到?誰料想得到他會多久?對不對?沒人想得到啦然後當時的船運又出了多大問題整個運輸又出了什麼樣的一個狀況這個難道都不算在突發事件裡面嗎?突發事件裡面嗎?"},{"start":14216.324,"end":14238.717,"text":"這不能想到的。好,那我再用一個例子給部長跟市長做參考。我這邊有個案例,嘉義縣有某這個經營家具外銷公司,主要是因為疫情訂單減少以及臨時得知客戶無法付款署突發事件。照理講他是應該不受60日前的這個通報限制的,但勞動部書院委會"},{"start":14240.318,"end":14245.182,"text":"認為,他是這麼講,說全球疫情已持續一段時間,可事先預知訂單將會減少。這個怎麼叫預知?"},{"start":14253.53,"end":14267.4,"text":"很多在疫情時間﹐很多的產業他是變相的在成長就像晶片 OK相關的營運及人事管理應有所準備並非不可預見緊急事件也因此違反大切法這個第4條規定處時到50萬的罰款"},{"start":14271.582,"end":14294.781,"text":"我想這個個案判斷我這邊要尊重勞動部的社會委員會的決定我不是要探討這件事情的這樣一個實際上採取的內容但是我是強調說當你要去做出這樣的採取過程裡面你所續名這樣的理由我會覺得我會覺得好像可以論述再更完整一點我是覺得這樣有點簡單因為"},{"start":14298.47,"end":14326.641,"text":"你跟我都一樣吶吼,包含應該術業委員會的委員都一樣沒有人有辦法去預估怎麼會有這樣的疫情啊這個疫情到底要延續多久沒有一個人有辦法去把這個事情去預見那我們怎麼相對要求業主相對的在產業界的這些人他有辦法去預見這樣的事情不可能的事啊所以我是要舉這兩個樣態然後又16年沒有修這個大街法"},{"start":14327.722,"end":14337.85,"text":"是不是在部長要臨北邱去的時候留下美麗的身影?這事情是不是可以在你要"},{"start":14339.147,"end":14365.85,"text":"藉由畢業之前可以來思考、發動是不是來處理大量解雇法、勞工保護、大量解雇勞工的保護法看起來已經17年了啦17年我就一個法律這麼多年是需要在全盤再檢視一下啦所以市長在這裡我就當場指示他這個我們全盤來檢視該修就要來修啦我又看到部長美麗的身影了好 謝謝"},{"start":14368.292,"end":14388.387,"text":"來第二題齁403大地震亂這個花蓮成為重災區齁那花蓮縣府已經獲得兩家旅宿業者的申請大量解雇嘛分別申報83人及4人共有116人要失業但是同月4月23日又餘震再增加了一間花蓮的這個富凱飯店傾倒那預計兩週內就必須要拆除這個飯店的建築齁"},{"start":14394.315,"end":14406.982,"text":"我想這個換天他也一定符合大計劃第4條所定的天災事變或突發事件那如果這家換天再提出大量解雇的申請換人就有三家了換人就有三家"},{"start":14408.435,"end":14427.61,"text":"我是要說花蓮這次地震掉了這個十億的觀光的產值那可能還會再增加也不一定那接下來又是暑假的檔期真的是非常不樂觀所以可能會有相關的聯動性的業者也會去啟動這個大量解雇的這樣的一個狀況會陸續出現那我必須要講說"},{"start":14432.674,"end":14449.832,"text":"因為大量解雇而失業的員工,透過勞動部的就業服務的轉介,要在花蓮找到相同性質的工作,不簡單了,對不對,一定難度嘛,而且它是整個,它絕對不是一個單一的旅宿業的倒閉嘛,所以整個花蓮區域性的產業問題,這個真的是"},{"start":14452.234,"end":14471.582,"text":"會受到蠻大的挑戰所以我不曉得勞動部有沒有去預估未來一年內發電線可能會有多少失業人口那勞動部要怎麼做怎樣的因應跟輔導人數上我們可以預期可能一定會增加但是到底多少我們要看狀況但是重點就是說我現在有專人"},{"start":14472.842,"end":14488.176,"text":"正在目前花蓮的整個狀況包括勞工的這些失業、就業這些需要幫忙的我們有專人在處理那隨時也都跟花蓮縣政府這邊保持聯繫我們就是及時的援助就是說"},{"start":14490.478,"end":14517.193,"text":"但是就像剛剛委員講的因為畢竟他現在整個是觀光產業都受影響有時候轉業因為可能不像說在西部這麼方便所以要跨域也會有困難不過現在是我們至少還有一個零工措施或者失業給付還可以撐一些時間不過其他的產業部分我們是現在透過就是說雖然沒有辦法到那邊去旅遊或什麼的那其他產業我們用"},{"start":14518.013,"end":14520.936,"text":"請勞動部長：立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生福利部長、法務部長．針對全面檢視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視。"},{"start":14541.117,"end":14567.177,"text":"這個影響是會持續到一段相當的時間啊看怎麼幫忙就像我們當初疫情先先做最壞的打算做最好的準備啦所以也謝謝委員提醒我們這個都來來全盤的關注對所以剛才部長特別提到嘛預先嘛還是說預估嘛預防嘛包含剛才的我特別提到大節晚裡面的預警嘛這其實預防剩餘一切的證明這個我們大家都很清楚"},{"start":14567.837,"end":14584.551,"text":"那過去我們也有921的這麼嚴重的大跡證比花蓮這個大跡證當然更嚴重到N倍以上當時怎麼去做因應怎麼去預估嘛怎麼去做預宣的一些事情我想這個部分可能要協同交通部、協同經濟部對對對就跨部會啦我們跨部會來"},{"start":14585.881,"end":14612.047,"text":"行政院有召開相關的跨部會會議來協助那當然也希望部長在所謹慎的時間裡面就是特別要求是不是可以快速的兩個禮拜內應該可以做出這個這樣的一個預估預先的預警的一些報告可以為我們做參考嗎?可以嗎?可以好 謝謝好 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝劉建國委員發言接下來請林倩琦委員發言"},{"start":14619.635,"end":14623.177,"text":"謝謝主席。我們這邊請徐部長。請徐部長。部長好。大家辛苦了。那個時間已經這麼晚。本席在對今天的這個主題上就只有在法條上還有一些更深層面的思考這邊想給這個部裡面這邊一個建議。我們在面對長期失業者的一個困境。我這邊針對就業服務法"},{"start":14647.907,"end":14670.321,"text":"有關於長期失業者的服務對象那我這邊提出來就是說是不是不要只求有工作而是能夠求更好也就是能夠適得其所那我這邊建議啦面對長期失業者的不同形態那在雖然中央各主管機關會有審視那現在可以再擴大一個審視的深度跟廣度"},{"start":14671.241,"end":14696.762,"text":"明列有其必要者﹖那我們就可以看到這個法條的24條的第10款這邊有很多個對象可以積極面對然後落實這個就業的媒合那這個24條裡面的規定對象有很多像第一個獨立負擔加計然後第4個這個原住民這個部分還有長期失業、二度就業這邊是這個身分別那本席在這邊建議就是說是不是可以"},{"start":14697.222,"end":14720.543,"text":"對這種特定的對象檢視他的一個分類的基礎因為這些身分別裡面可能會有一些多重的重疊那另外有一些長期失業者他就會變成就業的這個障礙很嚴重所以這邊雖然就那個就業的這個就是分類"},{"start":14721.844,"end":14750.905,"text":"就身份來講那其實有很多失業時間很長的那就會導致他在他的職業融入的這個部分會特別的困難所以我們可不可以參考那個貴部如果有機會參考一下德國就業促進法的規範跟措施那不僅在內容還有這個時間的持續的部分來考慮一下對穩定的這個需求的增加還有事業者的支持那這個特定的對象可以"},{"start":14751.325,"end":14775.535,"text":"就是可以思考一下失業期間來取代他的身分別或看你們怎麼樣去多重思考的一個處理那比如說像失業3個月失業6個月9個月12個月那可能部裡面這邊可以提供可以就這個部分提供不同的深度的就業諮詢然後還有就業促進的一個措施所以最後就是這個"},{"start":14776.415,"end":14778.817,"text":"我先回應您一下您剛提到德國的制度剛好我們今天也要去考察"},{"start":14802.037,"end":14820.528,"text":"我們剛好就主要去取經啦他在知識可以工作好的經驗我們都來學習另外就是那個長期失業者來我們有一個長期失業者那個就業的指引指引我們現在正在就長期失業族群的服務指引那這個我們就是要"},{"start":14822.029,"end":14836.202,"text":"我們現在在邀請專家學者來做一些討論那把這指引研擬出來之後我們提供給救福委員參考來盤點相關的社政衛生資源那結合民間團體村里長基層網路來合作發掘潛在事業者協助他"},{"start":14837.489,"end":14859.436,"text":"就是不是只以身份就是以他的這個失業狀況然後適性的去排除他就業的障礙然後提高他就業的意願這個我們有在做剛好謝謝委員的提醒這個我們有在做那另外德國的部分我請他們去的時候特別這個部分特別去研究人家好的制度我們來做參考"},{"start":14861.297,"end":14870.406,"text":"謝謝部長還有部理已經注意到這樣一個問題。正好希望能夠水到渠成。祝福部長。"},{"start":14874.465,"end":14902.415,"text":"好 謝謝林千祺委員本日會議詢答全部結束委員廖偉祥、楊耀、盧憲一、光曉琳、羅志強所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":14914.462,"end":14920.525,"text":"主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}