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邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運用"},{"start":1525.07,"end":1546.2,"text":"以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進其成,進行專題報告並備質詢。本次會委員審發會等14人提出質詢。委員傅坤祺提出書面質詢。決定依報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關緊速送交個別委員及本會。宣讀完畢。請問各位,上次會議議事錄有錯或遺漏?"},{"start":1552.213,"end":1572.211,"text":"沒有的話我們一速確定接著介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員先介紹在場委員我們歡迎羅委員志強謝謝歡迎莊委員瑞熊省委員發慧陳委員俊宇以及在門邊的我們柯委員建銘好那接下來介紹應邀列席官員"},{"start":1573.96,"end":1602.6,"text":"我們介紹立法院秘書長周萬南秘書長歡迎您我們張玉榮副秘書長歡迎您好那其餘未及介紹的列席代表請參院名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄好那本次議程我們討論四項我們就是繼續審查國會改革系列方案有關立法院組織法、立法委員行為法、立法院議事規則與立法院職權行使法"},{"start":1603.24,"end":1628.898,"text":"那民進黨黨團及各提案委員擬具之修正條文草案。好那我們繼續之前呢尚未進行完畢的提案說明及報告先進行委員的提案說明發言時間三分鐘我會請在場的提案委員進行說明那因為在場有包括范雲委員包括羅志強委員羅委員要不要先因為范雲委員剛進來啊讓他喘口氣"},{"start":1632.23,"end":1640.719,"text":"案案委員準備好了,我們就請你做提案說明了。好,那我們先因為今天有幾個提案,我們就先邀請提案人范韻委員進行提案說明,謝謝。時間三分鐘。"},{"start":1646.993,"end":1649.033,"text":"三）委員賴瑞隆等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":1672.378,"end":1696.5,"text":"職場及任何場域的性騷擾防治調查及懲處都能更加完善。可是我卻發現,我們立法院非常諷刺。我們自己立法,但是卻是MeToo改革的一個漏洞。因為《性別平等工作法》的規定中,如果職場的性騷擾屬實,"},{"start":1698.642,"end":1702.466,"text":"顧主必須給予行為人適當的懲戒或處理,"},{"start":1704.209,"end":1729.546,"text":"但是性騷防治法也規定受害者可以向行為人所屬機關提出申訴行為人所屬機關應該調查並提供主管機關的處理建議可是因為立委跟立委之間不是僱傭關係也不是從屬關係所以如果立法委員出現了性騷擾或者性別歧視言行的話立法院無從約束也沒有調查的權限"},{"start":1731.046,"end":1749.193,"text":"立法院作為立委、還有助理、公務員、職工、記者、民間團體進出工作的職場,立委是裡面權力最大的,立法院缺乏一個自律機制,沒有辦法保護在立法院工作的相關人員,免於立委的性騷擾。"},{"start":1755.189,"end":1772.483,"text":"義無權處理立委之間的性騷擾,真的是性騷擾防制的一大漏洞。事實上,過去立法院性騷擾跟性別歧視頻傳,比如說在國會殿堂有公然性騷擾,在一場攻防的時候把手伸進一行為的褲帶等。"},{"start":1773.764,"end":1799.311,"text":"為了補上這個漏洞,我的《立法委員行為法》在第七條增訂,立法委員不得有性騷擾或性別歧視之言辭或行為若有違反者,送交立法院紀律委員會並由紀律委員會邀請有性別意識的調查專家外部專家進行調查,做成調查報告及處理建議"},{"start":1801.083,"end":1822.648,"text":"懲處方式包含口頭或書面報告,停止出席院會,停權一定時間等處分。我想立法委員作為立法的一個重要的機制跟代表,拒絕新遭立委是我們的責任,也是我們對全國人民應該做的,那更是國會改革不可或缺的一彎。"},{"start":1823.448,"end":1848.437,"text":"那謝謝司法法制委員會排審那希望我們能夠補上這個性騷跟性別平等的漏洞不再寬容立法院的性騷那也希望各黨跨黨派支持國會的性別改革法案謝謝好謝謝我們范委員的提案說明那接下來請提案人羅委員志強進行提案說明時間三分鐘請"},{"start":1861.541,"end":1887.377,"text":"主席還有大家好其實這段時間擔任立法委員我就發現說我們立法委員真的還有蠻多的議事的一個程序跟規則除了說剛剛我們講前面我們在討論很熱烈的國會改革無法以外事實上很多的議事的一些規則那最近我有很多的體會所以我接下來都會做很多一些關於議事規則的一些"},{"start":1888.758,"end":1888.878,"text":"草案案。"},{"start":1907.25,"end":1928.777,"text":"那因為我自己經常到各種不同委員會去質詢那也包括總質詢的時候質詢的陳建仁院長我就發現我們這個立法委員真的好像小媳婦一樣為什麼呢我要資料那個要資料都有很困難然後連質詢台上去質詢經常就會遭到反質詢的一個所謂的干擾"},{"start":1929.597,"end":1935.147,"text":"那比方陳建仁院長最常用的口頭禪就是當我們在講話的時候就講說你不專業你這樣子是不正確你不科學對不對你是錯的對不對"},{"start":1940.598,"end":1961.886,"text":"委員問題都還沒出來就開始不斷地打斷干擾那過去我有跟幾個官員在質詢的過程當中也發現他就不斷地反問我問題啊明明是我問他他突然化身成立法委員反過來問我所以因此今天我們在這個修法的部分的話我希望能夠在那個職權行使法裡面的第25條"},{"start":1963.266,"end":1984.453,"text":"能夠增加所謂的質詢的答覆不得超過質詢範圍之外再加一句就是不得反質詢那如果說違反這個所謂的反質詢的這種狀況的話主席得予制止經制止無效就可以另起離開會場那這當然只是一個才事的一個狀況比方舉個例子之前我們吳宗憲委員在這個質詢台上在質詢我們的準勞動部長何佩珊"},{"start":1991.355,"end":2020.184,"text":"他當時是行政院的副秘書長你就會發現一件事情就是今天吳宗憲委員在質詢的時候那何佩珊就是在答詢台上干擾那吳宗憲委員就說我不要再質詢你了可以請你下台連主席都裁示他下台他還霸著質詢台不走所以在凡此種種的一些意識的亂象我覺得都應該要在這一次我們新國會大家一起努力的來改正"},{"start":2020.764,"end":2038.852,"text":"案,因此我提出這個所謂的不得反質詢的這個修正案,那當然一方面有三個目標,一個就是符合我們憲法上賦予立法委員質詢權來捍衛我們的質詢權的一個行使,那第二個就是能夠約束官員,能夠好好的來去"},{"start":2041.413,"end":2044.315,"text":"接受民意的監督,不要用反質詢來干擾議事。」"},{"start":2065.387,"end":2086.996,"text":"好謝謝剛剛羅志祥委員所做的提案說明是進行立法委員職權行使法在今天會議當中列為第一次討論案的第六個案子那因為那是剛過了夫夷期所以我們主席把他排了進來那接下來呢有高金素梅委員他的提案分別有立法院組織法"},{"start":2088.798,"end":2099.436,"text":"那麼這立法院組織法當中的在場委員提案委員我詢問一下有沒有要幫忙高金委員做提案說明的包括有羅志強委員有沒有要就本案來幫忙做說明沒有好"},{"start":2102.435,"end":2129.059,"text":"那另外主席也在這裡詢問提案人包括賴瑞隆委員所提的三個案子那分別有在場委員有進行連署的我也請教來主委來詢問包括我們在立法委員行為法當中陳俊宇委員有沒有幫忙待會提案說明有請時間三分鐘"},{"start":2136.633,"end":2159.17,"text":"好謝謝主席那在場各位委員各位官員大家好那我們針對本條文是為了要推動我們國會改革強化國會的議員專業的這種立法問政的能力那提升優質民主代議事的形象強化我們資訊揭露落實秘密會議保密的機制"},{"start":2160.231,"end":2166.215,"text":"因應強化立法委員能夠行使法定職權行為的規範並健全其利益迴避的機制。"},{"start":2173.007,"end":2193.093,"text":"內容我們參酌公職人員選舉罷免法、公職人員利益衝突迴避法以及公務員服務法等相關法令就立法委員關係人的範圍界定秘密會議未遵守保密規定的法律效果兩岸交流的資訊透明化等事項"},{"start":2194.442,"end":2201.653,"text":"徵修規範以強化行使職權以利益迴避來建立優質的國會。當然這個內容實質的內容我們對於修正的這個內容"},{"start":2208.939,"end":2227.173,"text":"在第十條裡面參加這個秘密會議的立法委員以及列席的人員及本院的員工等均應竊竭這個保密協議並禁止攜帶任何的通訊產品進入,拒絕竊竊者不得參加秘密會議。"},{"start":2228.354,"end":2256.754,"text":"曾參加立法院秘密會議的立法委員其本人及其關係人於任期中或聘僱關係程序期間前往中國及港澳地區應向立法院報備並於網站公開其報備方式由立法院定之違反前兩項規定紀律委員會應立即調查必要時提報院會予以停權並移送司法機關來調查"},{"start":2258.235,"end":2270.952,"text":"我相信這個修訂本法是為了要確保我們立法院相關會議的內容不被洩密那也在此我們希望說能夠透過這個修法應該要確實來要求所有"},{"start":2275.658,"end":2287.828,"text":"案、出席相關會議的這些人員一定要落實本法這樣子才能夠確保我們國家的安全也能夠讓我們所有的會議在進行過程裡面不被這個內容這個"},{"start":2290.538,"end":2293.56,"text":"案案,並扑露出去,避免衍生不必要的問題。」"},{"start":2307.176,"end":2332.6,"text":"好接下來有賴瑞隆委員提案的立法院議事規則的修正草案那麼共同提案人有包括審判委員在場的還有范雲委員請問兩位委員有沒有帶回說明沒有好接下來我們賴瑞隆委員有提案立法院組織法的修正草案那提案人當中在場有沈伯陽委員有沒有要帶回提案有請時間三分鐘"},{"start":2340.968,"end":2359.466,"text":"這個提案最主要是在說明參與秘密會議的一個規則大家都知道我們在立法院有很多各式各樣的秘密會議參與秘密會議的時候他必須要簽保密協定當然如果沒有辦法簽的話照理說應該是不能夠參與秘密會議所以這是一個非常簡單的規範"},{"start":2360.767,"end":2381.539,"text":"但其實這樣的規範遠遠不足很重要的一個原因是因為目前我們任何的國家安全相關的法令都是在規定每一個部門他們的一個保密的義務但是大家卻可能沒有注意到立法委員能夠接觸的機密理論上是最多的如果說今天中國他滲透了譬如說陸委會的其中一個部門的某一個職員"},{"start":2382.64,"end":2403.22,"text":"那他就只能得到這一個部門相關的秘密資料但立法委員不一樣嘛因為立法委員可以跟各個單位去索資所以理論上他能夠得到的情報根據不同的議題是最全面的但是我們現在對於立法委員的這一個保密相關的規定呢其實是非常非常的鬆散所以呢除了在這個行為法"},{"start":2404.881,"end":2430.332,"text":"還有除了在職權行使法之外還有很多的小的這種規則其實都應該一併的修訂那非常遺憾的事情就是如果我們今天只是修訂這些規則那很多人還是不遵守或者用各式各樣的方式把這樣的秘密從這個機密會議代理的話還是能夠造成國安的危機所以非常重要的事情就是除了他的行為本身的規範之外他的接觸的對象其實也應該要規範"},{"start":2431.613,"end":2458.423,"text":"案,意思就是說呢,譬如說以中國的黨政軍,就是說這個反滲透法所謂的這個滲透來源,如果今天立法委員跟這些人有接觸的時候呢,其實他應該予以規範。那國人可能很擔心的是說,那這樣的話呢,立法委員以後是不是都沒有自由了,見中國的這些黨政軍,難道見了以後都要被處罰嗎?那顯然呢,這樣的疑慮呢,就表示對於這些相關的修正呢,並沒有看清楚條文。"},{"start":2459.503,"end":2478.525,"text":"之前我們提出來相關的這個修正指的是說如果他今天遇到中國的黨政軍的狀況的時候他必須要揭露也就是說讓我們知道你是一個長期接觸各個不同機密的人然後你見了中國的黨政軍這個必須要揭露是不揭露才會有問題"},{"start":2479.566,"end":2503.392,"text":"並不是說我今天只要見了中國的誰誰誰然後我就要去坐牢。絕對沒有像那個藐視國會這麼誇張。所以呢請大家要注意的事情就是他從秘密會議本身的規範還有他簽了之後呢到底能不能夠參與。到參與了之後呢譬如說他不能夠超錄啦錄音的設備啦甚至擴音的設備因為我們有一些委員講話很大聲然後大聲到外面的那個窗戶外面都聽得到啊"},{"start":2503.832,"end":2528.519,"text":"那這樣的話也是可以把機密傳出去嘛然後再接下來是他去特定的國家以及他見特定的人員這些全部都應該要一體的規範所以呢今天我們這一個提案只是所有的這些規範的一小部分那很遺憾的事情呢這整體的規範甚至有一些是我提出的在程序委員會就被國民黨跟民眾黨聯手封殺所以呢我們並沒有辦法把完整的規範帶到這邊委員會討論甚感可惜啦那我發言到這邊謝謝"},{"start":2532.639,"end":2554.019,"text":"好,謝謝沈委員待會做提案說明。沈委員可以在前面,我們今天有巡打,如果要登記發言的話在前面。好,那麼因為今天的提案說明呢,已經有請在場委員參與提案的委員進行說明完畢。接下來請機關代表報告。來,我們請立法院周秘書長報告。好,發言時間3分鐘。"},{"start":2560.325,"end":2584.125,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、大家好。今天奉邀列席貴委員會全體委員會議深感榮幸。針對今日議程所提議案,立法院執行司法修正草案部分要以本年4月18日第14次全體委員會議報告完畢,及立法院組織法修正草案涉及院長、副院長選舉改裁記名投票部分,"},{"start":2585.026,"end":2596.925,"text":"以於本年4月1日第11次全體委員會議列席報告說明不再重複以外,針對立法院組織法、立法院行文法以及議事規則的修正部分,僅"},{"start":2601.611,"end":2628.502,"text":"說明如下進行參考第一立法院組織法修正草案第一強化秘密會議規範目前立法院有關秘密會議事項包括秘密會議應如何進行及其應遵守事項本院議事規則第八章以及立法院秘密會議注意事項均有相當規範委員提案你申訂立法院委員出席秘密會議應切結保密協議並禁止攜帶任何通訊產品"},{"start":2631.233,"end":2655.219,"text":"國會治理事項、尊重委員合一決定。二、強化國會資通安全專業幕僚亮能及國會擴建簽件案。依現行資通安全管理法第11條規定本院已由副民事長兼任資通安全長另查各院系由諮詢室負責資通安全事項。本院諮詢室目前"},{"start":2657.767,"end":2673.957,"text":"業務亦涵蓋自動安全工作與其他各院作法相同,適合於本院組織法中特於明定副秘書長兼任自動安全長並徵涉自動安全事以及聯員配置上派委員橫走決定有關徵定"},{"start":2674.577,"end":2689.467,"text":"法治局預算中心得聘用具教育聯員任用資格者及本院簽證擴建委等問題,善待委員凝聚共識,尊重委員合意決定。第三,修正委員會用協助及公會助理相關制度,委員提案擬增訂,補助為委員應選區。"},{"start":2692.569,"end":2704.849,"text":"特殊因素產生之交通、住宿等不便會用、公會助理資格條件及待遇、福利等比照約聘顧連年並以法制化。請參照所附的比較表徵訂"},{"start":2707.501,"end":2721.794,"text":"據原住民身份立委不受其所屬政黨參加黨團之限制而成立原住民族政團等節尊重委員之立法政策決定,立法院行為法修正草案依健全利益迴避機制委員提案擬擴大"},{"start":2723.436,"end":2751.315,"text":"立法委員關係聯範圍修正利益定義及利益迴避原則查現行除了立法委員行為瓦解公職聯緣利益衝突迴避法及遊說法均有明文令參佐各國外國立法律對於利益的定義認定範圍及利益迴避方式各有不同、詳盡、互介入的比較表。是我分組立法委員,屬民意代表是特性,另為特別規範,屬於立法政策是選擇,尊重委員合意決定。兩案交"},{"start":2752.416,"end":2767.838,"text":"兩岸交流通訊、兩岸交流資訊透明化、現行立法院委員組織法以明定立法院委員依法參加秘密會議之保密義務、委員者主席等交紀律委員會役處先於續名。委員提案除強化秘密會議規範外,"},{"start":2769.56,"end":2794.374,"text":"你徵定曾參加命運會議之立法委員及其關係人,以任期中或聘僱關係存續期間,前往中國及港澳地區應報備並公開資訊等情,授其關係人範圍界定及各自隱私權之限制,當尊重委員在保密事項所保護之法律與人民基本權利保障間取得和平或是合一決定,三擴大"},{"start":2795.154,"end":2821.997,"text":"禁止兼任職之職體及範圍委員提案擬擴大立法委員不得兼任職兼任兼職範圍徵定兼任會營內團體職位之申報義務及各會期報道期間未完成報道者停發其稅工會等節因此立法形成自由之範疇當尊重委員合意決定是徵定徵定立法委員及性騷擾或性別歧視言行之調查處理機制"},{"start":2822.958,"end":2849.445,"text":"委員提案擬徵令立法委員涉及性騷擾或性別歧視言行之調查及處理機制,應現行性騷擾防治法及性別平等工作法等法規,一定有相關規範。除上屆規範之外,是否再將立法委員擬涉性騷擾或性別歧視行為納入委員自立機制,屬於立法政策之選擇。"},{"start":2851.38,"end":2862.463,"text":"令參酌國外立法例及美國、法國、英國等國國會與倫理規範或院會決議另有相當規範,其與各國說服明文,然可以以該行為有損國會尊嚴交互相關委單位調查後提報院會議署,僅供參考。至於針對"},{"start":2875.197,"end":2884.843,"text":"違反立法委員行為法規定受及刑事責任者之後續處理程序應屬國會之律事項當尊重委員合意決定。三（立法院議事規則"},{"start":2886.311,"end":2915.061,"text":"本院排審修正六案議事規則大概有三部分,一個是修正臨時提案、處理時間、彙取國事論壇制度以及完備秘密會議之保護措施。首先,有關臨時提案處理時間,屬議程安排事項,尊重委員決議決定。其次,國事論壇制度當時有其設立緣由,並因有其臨時性、機動性與新聞性之特點,提供委員問字之場域,其存在於何,當尊重委員合意決定,"},{"start":2916.241,"end":2942.533,"text":"關於秘密會議保密措施本次會議所列立法院組織法、立法院行為法亦有相當規範外,本院並已訂定立法院員工參與秘密會議應遵守事項,針對已為員工明定應簽署保密切結書以及禁止吸入行動電話、錄影設備、通信電子器材等強化保密措施,僅附帶說明。以上報告敬請執交。謝謝。"},{"start":2946.213,"end":2954.716,"text":"提案說明及機關報告已進行完畢。其餘機關報告請參閱書面。相關書面報告內容列入公會記錄。現在開始詢答時間。本會委員時間8分鐘,必要時得延長2分鐘。非本會委員時間5分鐘,不再延長。上午10點30分截止發言登記。現在請登記第一位的省委員發言。"},{"start":2987.846,"end":3012.232,"text":"主席各位同仁我想我也非常高興說今天終於可以順利的來就我們這個國會改革的相關法案能夠進入實質的討論那過去有關於程序上面的這些紛紛擾擾本席這也是能夠有這個機會覺得進入這個實質的討論我也是覺得非常的欣慰"},{"start":3013.82,"end":3028.672,"text":"那我想這個有關國會改革的這些法案除了我們已經有在經過正義程序中已經這個保留的這些相關的修正草案之外"},{"start":3030.335,"end":3055.763,"text":"今天我們另外還有十個案子這十個案子這個內容就是真正的針對這個國會改革自律的一些相關規範包括議事規則包括這個我們國會幕僚的強化包括國會的自通安全、性別平等以及國會的相關自律甚至包括兩岸交流的這個資訊透明化等等這些我們認為說屬於"},{"start":3057.868,"end":3060.972,"text":"屬於國會改革姿勢體大的一些問題。」"},{"start":3074.076,"end":3091.506,"text":"周秘書長早安我剛有講我們今天所審查的國會改革的相關議題是相當多我相信在等一下詢問過程中每位委員會有不同著重不同的重點跟秘書長"},{"start":3093.647,"end":3115.135,"text":"來進行了解因為秘書長因為基於做國會的幕僚長的角色因此你在書面報告上面有對於這些修正立法委員所提出來修正草案大部分都不便評論這個我們都可以理解那我就一些部分來跟秘書長來討論首先我就這個"},{"start":3118.476,"end":3146.018,"text":"我們民進黨所提的國會改革法案中一件很重要的事情就是有關國會強化國會資通安全的相關的這個規定這個這個我們簡單講我們就是增列了這個這個我們的草案就是增列要求這個立法院必須設增設資安長以及增設資訊通這個資通安全處大概是這這這兩個部分"},{"start":3148.018,"end":3155.264,"text":"我想請問這個民主黨齁我看到現在現在在我們除除了我們的這個這個立法院組織法"},{"start":3156.411,"end":3179.017,"text":"裡面目前沒有這樣的編制,但是事實上我們在107年6月7年前就通過了這個資通安全管理法。資通安全管理法裡面有一些相關的規範。那這些相關規範它的主要規範對象就是所謂公務機關。那立法院當然是公務機關之一吧,是不是?"},{"start":3181.544,"end":3190.932,"text":"因為本來自動安全法第11條都規定以後,立法院也有由副秘書長來兼治安長。現在已經有了。"},{"start":3198.198,"end":3222.579,"text":"那系列上大概我在內部也...所以簡單講我們立法院也受這個資通安全管理法的規範嘛因為它是公務機關嘛,立法院是公務機關,這應該毫無異議吧?沒有毫無異議啦齁那第11條的部分有民進黨說明說我們目前已經有設這個資通安全長啦齁但是第12條呢,接下來第12條齁,它有說公務機關每年"},{"start":3224.156,"end":3249.736,"text":"應每年向上級機關或監督機關提出資通安全維護計劃實施情形。無上級機關者及資通安全維護計劃實施情形應送交主管機關。」請問我們立法院有沒有做?每年?我們每年有沒有做這個資通安全管理法所規定的"},{"start":3250.492,"end":3258.002,"text":"委員好這個資通安全維護計畫實施情形我們每年都有做每年都有做啊做了之後我們是什麼我們沒有上級機關嗎"},{"start":3259.633,"end":3261.193,"text":"第14條公務機關因應資通安全事件應訂定通報及應變機制"},{"start":3285.747,"end":3308.813,"text":"請問我們有沒有制定第14條這個相關的通報跟應變機制因為我查遍了我們的公開資訊都找不到啦其實都找不到所以包括你剛剛所說的這個資通安全維護計畫我查這個公開資訊也沒有查到啦所以我現在要了解一下第14條呢第14條規定的這個應訂定通報及應變機制我們有訂定嗎"},{"start":3317.185,"end":3334.882,"text":"有沒有?我們沒有訂定那個計畫但是依照速發部的這個訂定的相關規範我們有訂定了18種這個相關的內規也就是說資通安全法第14條的部分我們還沒有做到立法已經7年了我們立法院自己本身還沒有做到這個部分我覺得"},{"start":3335.848,"end":3358.228,"text":"我覺得法永明定我們就應該要做了這就是我們為什麼民進黨黨團會提出說應該要設立資通安全處的一個看法因為你們現在都是我們的這個資安長是兼任那我們這些資通安全目前由資訊處的同仁也是兼任"},{"start":3359.869,"end":3376.892,"text":"其實資訊處的同仁他們在資通安全上面他們並不是專門在針對資通安全的部分處理他對整個立法院的所有資訊系統都是他的責任這責任很過於重大另外針對第15條公務機關所屬人員對於機關資通安全維護績效優良者應予獎勵請問我們有沒有"},{"start":3388.334,"end":3417.546,"text":"這七年來我們例如我舉例像教育部教育部他就有教育部人員資通安全事項獎懲基準他們有訂立這個獎懲基準請問我們立法院針對資通安全法第15條我們還沒做到我們還沒訂立獎懲的這樣一個基準所以這七年來也沒有針對這些所謂資通這個資安人員的獎勵都沒有嗎你沒有基準就沒有獎勵對不對這七年都沒有嗎秘書長這部分齁"},{"start":3419.725,"end":3433.662,"text":"這部分我在舉就是說我們立法院的事實上這個是依法明定的我剛所講的都是依法明定的就是我們的自通安全法從第11條到第15條除了第11條設一個資安長之外我們其他通通沒有做到"},{"start":3436.656,"end":3460.634,"text":"由於從組織架構來說明,因為大概院之間,大概因為其他各院也沒有特別針對資通安全設一個處,就是一個單位。那我想雷氏總是當面也有稍微提供一次,各院目前都沒有,都由資訊處來監。至於剛才沈委員所提的這些部分,"},{"start":3461.554,"end":3484.803,"text":"我們今天沒有關係啊,我們要做到法定該做的事情要做啊。我們會,如果是說我們沒有跟貴院一樣,沒有設置中央安全處,在資訊處我們可以把他強化,但是這個沒有問題啊。先不要說強化,先不要說到我們修法之後的強化,我光現在依法該做的事情我們就還沒做啊。七年了也都還沒做啊。"},{"start":3490.46,"end":3519.141,"text":"這個部分是不是我們自己立法院定定的資通安全法我們自己立法院拜託我們該做的事情都要做好不好我們自己立法院有定一個立法院資通安全管理要點事實上我們立法院有定這個資通安全管理要點裡面有關資通安全組織提到說未落實本院資通安全管理由機關首長、指派副首長或適當人員兼任治安長"},{"start":3520.749,"end":3547.386,"text":"並成立資通安全集合小組。」請問我們現在有沒有資通安全集合小組?現在有。有集合小組?有集合小組。它是臨時編制嗎?對,它是一個臨時編制。是一個臨時性的編制。資通安全工作小組呢?也有。目前也有。也有。也是臨時編制?對對。對不對?這個個人資料管理小組?也有。也有齁?對,都有。那這個"},{"start":3549.11,"end":3575.801,"text":"我們這個立法院的資通安全管理要點裡面有提到第六點,第六點有提到要實施資通安全教育訓練及宣導。第二十點提到說本要點應該要定期宣導,請問我們有做什麼宣導?我們每年八月會有統一的一個教育訓練。第十六點有提到說我們應該要定定營運持續緊急應變演練。"},{"start":3579.676,"end":3590.457,"text":"及復原計劃。」我們有做演練嗎?有有有,每年兩次。每年兩次,我們演練就是演練我們立法院的資訊系統,有包括到各委員的研究室嗎?"},{"start":3594.515,"end":3617.693,"text":"都是應用系統跟設備因為研究室的話設備是要測試啦但是這個資通安全是要演練啦我們有演練嗎我這個立法院國會辦公室我沒有看到哪一個任何一個委員的辦公室有做過資通安全的演練啊主要是系統對外的這個部分啦這部分齁這部分齁這個秘書長"},{"start":3622.349,"end":3639.065,"text":"我所提的這些其實都是已經是法定該做的事情但事實上我們都沒有做到為什麼我個人認為就是因為我們自通安全沒有專責機構了就是因為沒有專責機構大家都是兼任了剛剛所講的飢餓小組工作小組個人資料這些小組都是臨時性編制"},{"start":3641.178,"end":3660.967,"text":"所以民進黨才會提出這樣子的修正草案希望說我們在組織法上面能夠明定設立資訊安全、自通安全的這個專責機構因為畢竟立法院是國家重要的一個機構它的自通安全絕對不容忽視以上好謝謝好謝謝沈委員謝謝副秘書長接下來有請羅委員志強發言"},{"start":3684.253,"end":3685.117,"text":"主席有請周秘書長請周秘書長"},{"start":3690.613,"end":3712.86,"text":"議員賴瑞隆,你好。議員賴瑞隆,你好。同樣的,不會為難你。在這個不為難你的狀況之下,就要借重您對於我們立法院多年來,議事規則還有相關程序進行的專業。那就最近這一段時間有些疑問想要就教一下我們的秘書長。首先,其實"},{"start":3716.301,"end":3737.952,"text":"說真的我最近看到有關於國會改革的這幾波我們大家的討論或是攻防那我從中也學習到很多那第一個我就要想要就教一些我們的那個周秘書長就是說當國民黨就提出了國會改革無法之後"},{"start":3738.732,"end":3754.117,"text":"其實我們一直很努力的來去盡量能夠去廣納意見嘛所以我看到我們的吳宗憲、昭偉當提出了我們在推這個國會改革無法的時候那民進黨就覺得是討論不夠啊對不對那時候說討論不夠嘛所以討論不夠結果我們現在我們就安排一場關於國民黨版的國會改革無法一場專報"},{"start":3763.6,"end":3774.571,"text":"還覺得不夠我們排了一場公聽會那民進黨就直接還講說一場公聽會不夠啊更多人聽到啊所以就我們的吳宗憲招委還特別嚴審兩個禮拜本來排定要來審國民黨版的國會改革無法還嚴審了兩個禮拜"},{"start":3782.458,"end":3784.66,"text":"然後呢就讓民進黨可以再加開兩場公聽會一場專報三場公聽會請問吳宗憲的召委這樣做法是不是很獨裁啊覺得呢"},{"start":3795.898,"end":3820.884,"text":"因為這一個由召集委員來排定這一個因為我們各位組織法規定委員會的議程是由召集委員來排定所以大概兩個召集委員會有排這一個我是未必能說這一個是到底是場次的多少因為這一個大概我未必能說明我知道你未必能說明"},{"start":3821.744,"end":3837.919,"text":"但是我要跟各位講然後吳宗憲召委贏得了民進黨兩次的所謂的一個譴責提案然後就說他很獨裁這是民進黨對吳宗憲召委的待遇那接下來在這邊我想一想就是"},{"start":3838.78,"end":3853.388,"text":"章偉你真的是做得不夠啦對不對你這樣做人家也不滿意對不對所以可是齁如果是這樣的話我倒是對民進黨這次提出的國會改革無法我有一個很這個個人的建議啊如果吳宗憲、章偉做得不夠"},{"start":3854.409,"end":3860.035,"text":"我建議民進黨的國會改革無法,國會改革的版本尤其吳仕堯講這跟國民黨不一樣嘛不一樣的話應該要更廣納社會大眾意見不如開兩場專報五場公聽會好不好如果做不到吳宗憲召委一場專報三場公聽會的話沒有關係比照就是讓我們的民進黨的國會改革"},{"start":3877.893,"end":3893.584,"text":"版本好好的就像國民黨的國會改革版本一樣透過專報跟三場公聽會讓社會大眾檢驗讓大家好好看看說民進黨的國會改革版本到底是怎麼樣一回事我不知道我們的秘書長你覺得這個主意怎麼樣呢"},{"start":3894.777,"end":3909.454,"text":"指重召集委員因為今天召集委員是因為各黨團都有一位召集委員對對對我其實跟米斯坦問的時候也同時在建議我們的這個中嘉賓召委也同時建議我們的底下的民進黨的這個委員們"},{"start":3911.576,"end":3928.01,"text":"竟然民進黨版的這個國會改革這麼的重要那基本上我覺得是可以讓社會大臣有更多時間好好的來討論所以今天我們不如就讓我們今天大家各自表達意見之後的話是不是也請我們的中嘉賓的昭偉"},{"start":3928.931,"end":3957.843,"text":"能夠從善如流學學吳宗憲召委的風度或者是獨裁啦風度啦就說你們提案說你們說這個公聽會不夠要再加開對不對吳宗憲召委說馬上就兩個禮拜嚴審啊嚴審法案就讓我們的民進黨可以召開公聽會啦所以我覺得真的是比照一下吳宗憲這個召委的做法如果說吳宗憲召委的做法我也幫吳宗憲召委說句話啦如果吳宗憲召委的做法叫做"},{"start":3959.003,"end":3974.399,"text":"獨裁的話那我要就效一下我們的那個周岸玉算你也看過立法院風風雨雨幾十年啊對不對你知道民進黨執政八年常常開會五分鐘直接強行表決然後就散會啦表決五分鐘對不對因為人家人數多數嘛優勢嘛碾壓完就散會啦"},{"start":3982.767,"end":4008.74,"text":"你不要講說國民黨想開公聽會沒得談專報沒得談 對不對﹖連討論都給你五分鐘給你研究掉啊我想請問如果吳宗憲、張偉他主持會議六個小時的討論 對不對然後一次專報三次公聽會這叫獨裁我不知道民進黨這叫什麼皇帝嗎是秦始皇嗎還是說今天是朱元璋大帝呢"},{"start":4009.58,"end":4027.652,"text":"那到底是怎麼回事 我不知道五分鐘結束了一個所謂的立法院的一個委員會的討論比較獨裁還是今天吳宗憲召委六小時然後一場專報三場公聽會比較獨裁呢我不知道秘書長從你的多年的經驗你怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":4029.273,"end":4044.486,"text":"其實我離開九年多啦,中間我的書裏面也有稍微做幾個版的修正啦。其實我在志願集團的序裡面有提過啦,就是說當時對第十屆的院長,"},{"start":4046.067,"end":4071.5,"text":"當任的時候我有特別在序有特別強調希望能夠這一個制度上回歸到這個議事規範大家能夠遵守的一個範圍我記得我昨天下午那個三版的序我有特別做這個期許好 非常謝謝秘書長所以在這邊我就是希望說我們透過這多次的我們這些議事的過程當中比方說其實我覺得都是好事啦"},{"start":4072.02,"end":4090.991,"text":"大家有一些可能有一些摩擦衝突就是衝突妥協進步嘛那慢慢的去讓我們的議事更能夠順應民意能夠代表人民來監督這個政府這點就很重要比如說舉個例子我現在也在提案我要提一個神盾局的條款神盾局條款什麼神盾局條款就是我會提案來修改我們的一些議事規章"},{"start":4095.773,"end":4124.114,"text":"主席當然可以宣布休息這個我覺得是沒有問題的但主席宣布休息可不可以加一個開始跟結束時間啟祭時間告訴大家一下嘛 對不對不要突然三個小時消失不見這樣子耗盡所有人時間在那邊等也不太好我覺得加上就是休息要加時間我不知道民進黨覺得這樣建議會不會讓大家至少知道說那休息我們家就是做很多我們自己該做的事情因為每個委員有很多想要做的事情嘛"},{"start":4124.614,"end":4125.095,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":4134.958,"end":4159.507,"text":"我想在禮拜二在院會我們也有針對院長有做一個各位看到禮拜二的一個情況啦因為我們也把時間有稍微跟大會報告啦那因為現在的議事規則裡面是這個鑿定休息當然是一個彈性的一個當時為什麼立這個法是有一個彈性的規範的休息的"},{"start":4161.239,"end":4178.612,"text":"謝謝秘書長最後我就來看看為什麼跟大家講我覺得民進黨版的國會改革說真的我覺得是我看了以後有一種很大的感想就叫願總召變了心以前有一首歌叫願昌天變了心我是願總召變了心"},{"start":4180.754,"end":4207.92,"text":"因為我這一段時間真的很努力的在看民進黨2016的版本跟2024年的版本我越看越覺得到底是以前的柯總召有問題還是現在的柯總召有問題我開始覺得越來越困惑我舉個例子為什麼剛剛特別強調我真的希望我民進黨的版本的2024的版本可以多開幾場公聽會大家一起來討論原因是什麼因為很多東西我真的真的是看不懂啦比方舉個例子 舉個例子就是說"},{"start":4209.46,"end":4230.754,"text":"我不太懂為什麼2016年的民進黨的版本要求這個提供這個相關行政機關提供議案的文件要提供原本可是民進黨現在就把這些原本全部刪掉就只能提供所謂參考文件要必要時才能夠提供原本這是我第一個不解的為什麼要自我閹割呢這閹割的原因是什麼呢"},{"start":4232.975,"end":4253.951,"text":"事務需要開公聽會來跟大家社會大眾也許有高深的學問羅志強智力不足啦可能不知道不懂說今天為什麼民進黨版的這個版本是這個樣子那再比方說民進黨的現在的這個所謂的新的版本當中也包括說對人事同意權的行使過程當中本來2016年版本是要求是記名投票"},{"start":4254.491,"end":4254.631,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":4273.78,"end":4294.221,"text":"民進黨2016年的版本是直接明文處罰說謊官員喔!他有好多的處罰太陽喔!處罰一萬到三十萬元對不對?我這個你想知道嘛對不對?可是呢民進黨2024年版本非常神奇的是他特別把處罰說謊官員那一段把它刪掉欸!"},{"start":4295.646,"end":4306.663,"text":"也就是說所有的泰亞裡面說謊官員是不乏的這麼神奇的民進黨的2024的國會改革版本真的要拿出來多開公聽會讓大家比胖啦謝謝"},{"start":4309.585,"end":4337.353,"text":"好,謝謝羅委員也謝謝秘書長在這裡因為有提及到本席跟我們吳宗憲召委在輪值主席的時候的有關公聽會那跟委員會報告說明在這次國會改革相關的法案當中由吳召委主持的會議當中安排了一場公聽會那本席主席輪值主席的時候安排了兩場公聽會所以這三場公聽會分別是由我們兩個人共同來完成的也請"},{"start":4338.213,"end":4365.133,"text":"我們在場的委員會的委員瞭解接下來我們有請陳委員俊宇發言好謝謝主席我們請周秘書長"},{"start":4367.061,"end":4394.556,"text":"請坐秘書長秘書長早我們今天要審查的是有關我們立法院的組織法還有立法委員的行為法、立法院議事規則以及立法院職權行使法等相關的條文那前幾週我們討論這個國會改革的時候大多是要完備我們立法委員的職權行使也希望能夠有效來監督政府回應民意"},{"start":4395.416,"end":4416.173,"text":"那不過我們立法委員在完善職權的同時也應該要有足夠的自律規範才能夠避免這種不當的行為產生首先想要就這個性平的議題與秘書長來做一個討論我想不管在任何的環境都會發生性平的事件的可能但立法委員作為我們"},{"start":4417.355,"end":4429.428,"text":"國家最高的民意代表自然要用最高的標準來防範性騷擾或性別歧視的言語對於性騷擾零容忍我們也應該要不分黨派大家要有共識"},{"start":4430.714,"end":4450.305,"text":"那我想就叫我們秘書長是不是因為立法委員不屬於立法院的員工所以現行的立法院工作場所性騷擾防治及申訴處理要點以及立法院性騷擾防治申訴及調查處理要點都沒辦法約束到涉及性騷擾的立法委員"},{"start":4454.191,"end":4476.713,"text":"我先跟陳委員報告一下因為我們在上上禮拜剛剛開開過那個性評會的一個會議啦那換人也在吧就為了這個委員之間啦也要由我們院裡面再把他強化再做一個修正因為委員間的事有沒有有大概有法治局是不是哪邊"},{"start":4478.703,"end":4505.523,"text":"那請蕾叔叔來說明一下,就是那個細節性啊,所以在性評會我們有...沒關係沒關係,那個細節不用那對於我們這個立法委員的這個性評的自律機制從法治局所提供的資料來看美國、法國還有我們英國的這個國會都有訂定相關的規範或決議那其他國家雖然沒有明文的規定但也會以有損國會尊嚴來處理"},{"start":4507.564,"end":4529.191,"text":"如果民進黨團的我們所提出還有范雲委員所認定的這種立法委員行為法所提出的修正草案能夠通過我想請教秘書長您這個針對立法院能不能借盡外國的這種國會案例來辦理您會如何來建議我們紀律委員會朝這個方向來處理"},{"start":4530.339,"end":4556.626,"text":"我們大概一般來講如果委員的提案通過的話我們會當然依照法裡面來處理當然就因為紀律委員會也是由委員各委員會召集委員組成的所以如果有法規的話我們一定照這樣的就依法處理就對行政一定是配合的處理依照紀律委員會的規範的處理有一定會按照法規定叫紀律委員會議處理紀律委員會他會開會照這個規範來做好"},{"start":4559.227,"end":4585.319,"text":"好那在這裡我也要提醒我們秘書長我們在這個網站上有一個性騷擾防治專區有提供相關的資訊參考那應該有一段時間都沒有去更新了包括我們性平三法在去年這個7月已經有通過新的版本可是在網站上所公告的這個性騷擾申訴案件的SOP目前還是連結到舊的版本的條文"},{"start":4585.999,"end":4606.788,"text":"所以這個應該請我們相關單位是不是會後去注意一下,可以做...對,公務委員報告,我們現在都在修,那我們修好之後,因為依據信憑三法的修正齁,我們也在修院裡面剛剛委員提到的兩個法,那目前都已經在修正中,也會法治局表示意見,那修好之後我們都會做更新,還有公務委員報告。"},{"start":4607.828,"end":4629.185,"text":"另外對於性平委員會我們立法院性別平等委員會設置要點第三點裡面所是我們本委員會設置13人我們的院長跟副院長是當然的主任委員跟副主任委員秘書長您也是委員的成員我也是委員外聘有三位"},{"start":4630.565,"end":4656.75,"text":"另外是我們依黨團的席次去分配這個席次那這個任期是兩年可是這一屆第四屆的委員任期是從2022年的7月1號到今年2024年的6月30號那雖然任期還剩幾個月可是是橫跨兩屆國會的任期其中也有幾位的委員已經沒有在立法院這個"},{"start":4659.05,"end":4670.617,"text":"連任已經卸任了,包括我們的游院長也都卸任了。那我想請問秘書長就是說是不是應該將我們性品委員會的任期來做一個重新的調整以配合每一屆的國會組成?"},{"start":4672.546,"end":4699.459,"text":"根據就是依照這一次2月1號的新的屆期那沒有連任的會離開的委員我們都已經請黨團提供新的委員名單所以我們也變更了新的名單所以院長也改人副院長也改人那國民黨跟民眾黨的委員都我們都已經改變了那也通知各個委員所以已經重組好了對對對都重組好了那就是已經在上上禮拜開會了嗎對對都是新的委員"},{"start":4701.06,"end":4723.694,"text":"好,那我們性平、性別平等委員會所負責的這個任務其實是非常的重要不但是要推動我們這個性平的政策、法規還有業務立法院的幕僚單位也負責對性別這個議題進行研究和分析那本期還是希望說我們性平會不只是制度上的持續精進"},{"start":4724.835,"end":4748.948,"text":"在工作上也能持續的深化同時納入更多元的聲音並將這個性平的意識落實在立法院的每一個人每一個地方將國會營造成一個沒有性騷擾或性別歧視的友善職場我相信這應該要請秘書長要去落實我們這個謝謝謝謝因為他執行秘書是由我們副秘書長來兼任的我們會幕僚方面會員認出來處理"},{"start":4752.932,"end":4780.85,"text":"好再來我想針對這個國事論壇的部分我想有關國事論壇的存廢問題也不是一個新的議題了那本席是我們本屆次的新科立委在對於國事論壇的必要性感到非常的懷疑至二月就任以來也從未在國事論壇上去登記發言過那每個委員站在台上獨自講了三分鐘有時候發言"},{"start":4781.77,"end":4786.495,"text":"事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具"},{"start":4800.765,"end":4815.831,"text":"立法院提供的這個書面報告書裡面有寫到關於國事論壇的制度當初有其設立的原有並因具有臨時性、機動性還有新聞性的這個特點提供委員問政的這個場域而當初"},{"start":4817.093,"end":4834.643,"text":"我們設置國事論壇原本是要提供給委員更多發言的機會讓委員能夠有這個叫自由的發表政策反映民情或是對於時事進行評論但是現在早已是這個電子化和網路媒體的時代"},{"start":4835.303,"end":4853.269,"text":"我們委員都有相當多元的這個發言的管道那我想請教秘書長您在這個立法院三十多年了應該是最能夠感受到這個變化為了讓立法院的這個意識能夠更加有效率是不是也認同國事論壇應該走入歷史"},{"start":4856.469,"end":4881.022,"text":"我因為從第二屆開始的國事論壇當時的有他的背景在背景我的在當時的情況是因為藝術論花園市場委員就藉藝術論花園來來做篇主題的花園所以有一位委員就在也是在預算委員審查的時候提出來才有這個基礎設計的不過這一個"},{"start":4884.524,"end":4908.505,"text":"這一個國事論壇長期也有蠻多的委員跟外界希望把它廢止,我也聽得到但是其實我個人認為國事論壇是一個失風道另外一個就是就是還要存在就對了我個人不認為說這一個國事論壇就是一定是不好的一個機制當然它還有其他配偶的比如舉個例來講九點開會"},{"start":4911.067,"end":4932.109,"text":"那如果有國事論壇的這個時間或許是有些委員他會讓這個法定人數可能在10點的話可能就立即就可以開會啦這個是大概有一些其他衍生的一些制度的一個配合啦我是個人不認為說一定國事論壇就不好啦"},{"start":4932.609,"end":4949.973,"text":"這是等於一個另外的可以把政見反映各方面的,雖然現在外界的可能很多委員都直播啦。剛剛秘書長我講的是說因為在上面講的三分鐘並沒有答詢的那個結果嘛,只有講而已,沒有回答。"},{"start":4950.433,"end":4964.592,"text":"我看有辦法就像臨時提案一樣他有一個輸紅道啦他可以把反映的他各選區或是什麼的一個民意的一個對這個反映所以美國制度是一分鐘演說吧"},{"start":4965.954,"end":4990.837,"text":"所以這個三分鐘是藉那個制度的衍生過來因為我個人並沒有說一定說不能會不過我是跟報告說這個有他的一些機能在另外還有一個就是有關臨時提案的處理時間現行的這個立法院議事規則第九條規定是在下午的五點到六點處理"},{"start":4993.395,"end":5003.521,"text":"針對這個部分我們希望說能不能改到在下午的一點到兩點來處理方便這個會議主席召開黨團協商會議的時候也能夠有充分討論的時間那針對這個部分"},{"start":5006.618,"end":5034.193,"text":"我想請教秘書長您的看法我尊重這個沒有我沒有特別說一定不行所以因為其實會議如果在因為現在剛開始沒有法案進來其實一般來講法案進來的話都可能到五點都還在進行法案的處理但我因為我問了醫事處的同仁他們大概這兩屆很多委員提出希望這個時間那我不反對"},{"start":5034.893,"end":5051.731,"text":"案,並擬具:「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案 、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案 案,並擬具:「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案 、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案 案,並擬具:「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案 、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案 案,並擬具:「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案 、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案 案,並擬具:「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案 、第五條及第三十二條條條文修正草案 案,並"},{"start":5061.981,"end":5065.344,"text":"謝謝周委,有請我們立法院的周秘書長。請周秘書長。"},{"start":5070.719,"end":5070.739,"text":"國務委員"},{"start":5100.84,"end":5102.021,"text":"立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草"},{"start":5116.468,"end":5119.433,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":5131.255,"end":5151.494,"text":"賴瑞隆不是這樣說的嗎?這樣比較好嗎?對嗎?是啦,我抱歉,我以為你在挑釁,但我還在害你,在批評別人。我今天就不談這些啦。我今天就談,其實國會改革裡面有很多啦,有軟實力也有整個國會的硬體的一個部分。我記得新國會開始的時候,在3月21號,你第一次在做立法院的一個業務報告,本席也針對國會擴建的問題請教過秘書長啦。"},{"start":5155.558,"end":5162.784,"text":"這個問題其實很開放的當初我記得你跟我的答覆是說游錫堃院長也曾經跟你說明過這個整個擴建的這樣一個過程那也期望本屆立委、立法院可以繼續來推動國會的一個擴建那你也說你也跟韓國瑜院長報告過"},{"start":5175.214,"end":5185.08,"text":"那後續這個月初秘書長答詢的時候也講說很極力想推動國會的一個擴建那關於國會擴建這樣的一個議題整個立法院的總務處會去研擬再向韓院長來做報告這是秘書長你的講法其實四平八穩那我要請教秘書長就是說距離上次這樣的一個這個議題的一個答詢以後差不多一個月時間你有跟韓國瑜這樣說過嗎?他態度到底是什麼?"},{"start":5204.337,"end":5220.703,"text":"賴瑞隆,因為當時提的是三個月內,不過我們總務處昨天就已經簽上來,那個簽的公文大概今天早上應該就送到院長室去了。這一個過程當時因為"},{"start":5227.185,"end":5254.188,"text":"案件,只派我跟公督門接見以後,就大概有稍微跟他報告是有這些院子簽件的事的。因為今天已經正式公文了,因為總統書的正式公文已經簽上來。另外要答覆這個我們說法制委員會因為三個月內,但有一些裡面的文字上我早上昨天晚上我是沒有批,我現在在看。"},{"start":5254.929,"end":5256.17,"text":"此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外"},{"start":5277.563,"end":5277.863,"text":"擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具"},{"start":5297.28,"end":5323.248,"text":"一個進程我接下來讓秘書長你來看一看我不曉得你有沒有最近都走到中興的一個地下室從2月1號新科立委報到以後到現在他三個月很多的裝潢需求的辦公室也陸續都完成該汰換的家具也都替換了你看整個地下室的走廊再走到戶外你有沒有想過這要說立法院地下室是在辦家具展又怕人家看這也覺得怪怪的你知道嗎"},{"start":5325.669,"end":5347.939,"text":"你自己把它看看這些圖,這個應該你很熟了那你在看到這一屆的一個立法院議事工坊其實是蠻激烈小小的一個空間裡面,你看有時候官員、委員、助理、記者、動輒上百人在一個一個空間裡面其實你看這個空間你看委部會、官員、媒體、立委、議事、領委、組織、黨團、組織、媒體在這裡你看這實在是很大的"},{"start":5354.621,"end":5354.902,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":5374.875,"end":5388.782,"text":"那這些,米主長,你應該很有感慨嘛,很有感嘛。其實每一個法律案的一個提出啊,本席到都認為啊,都有我們很多辛苦的國會助理的痕跡啊。例如說,呃,強化蘭赫啊,"},{"start":5391.578,"end":5392.839,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案"},{"start":5409.006,"end":5422.771,"text":"有時候我在想說,我們不夠理想的國會的一個動線,或者說這個處事位置的一個安排對整個立法、修法的一個效率,它其實還是有影響的。你給我繼續看。我們本院有很多的助理。請問我多一個助理,你知不知道在哪裡?"},{"start":5429.241,"end":5429.301,"text":"主席"},{"start":5446.426,"end":5449.988,"text":"本院很多的助理、議事人員、公務員來上班一大早找車位的一個大戰。以助理來講,大多是停在中心的地下室。中心的地下室最初設計只有汽車而已。"},{"start":5472.137,"end":5472.718,"text":"條文修正草案案例"},{"start":5489.74,"end":5500.645,"text":"但是在完成這整個國會擴建的歷史任務之前,我們現在的各處事或者各委員會的位置分配跟動線,你敢去請做一個檢討及條件的評估,審這間、聽這間、委這間、記這間的部分,做一個妥適的規劃。我們不要說空的、說這麼大的。"},{"start":5509.864,"end":5531.697,"text":"請你回答。謝謝你的指導。其實我在這邊知道以前車位各方面都經歷過這種情況。這比較剛剛莊委員提的有一點就是說這辦公室的配置我倒是特別注意到這一點。可能在"},{"start":5533.138,"end":5557.667,"text":"短期間,我想,因為這個,如果要,辦公室的變動是很大,那這一個指導課可以來思考看看是不是...這不是只有思考,這要謹記做啦,這如果都沒做齁,如果都不做,這不用簽公文的,你知道嗎?司法法制委員會,我們這圍洞先蓋一個法蓋就須蓋啊,對不對?你說把國會的助理,讓他們有一個更好的一個空間齁?"},{"start":5559.349,"end":5583.991,"text":"我是覺得不為過也應該啦為什麼呢你說從提案的在修法預算案日常質詢到地方這些會刊我相信都有國會助理的痕跡其實在現在法制上面來看你看我們國會助理的法源現在就只有在立法院組織法第32條立法委員每一個人得志公會助理8人到14人由委員聘任這樣而已"},{"start":5587.14,"end":5596.088,"text":"關於立法委員的助理的行為、待遇、勞動條件這些細項,法制上也沒有一個明文的規範。我一直在想說為他們報區,長期的預算就是這樣而已,那有沒有可能?"},{"start":5602.794,"end":5630.215,"text":"我們去把他看到一些一些比較具體的東西以後去思考如何來去做一個改進像比如說最近大家講的五一勞動節要搞什麼五一勞動節你說我們國會的助理你說他到底要適用什麼他當然適用勞基法但是問題是他現在夾在軍公教跟勞工之間他們是最容易被忽略掉的一群被忽略掉的一群所以你看他們到底是要跟著立法院的組織來運作"},{"start":5632.205,"end":5646.669,"text":"議員賴瑞隆等16人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案件及法制法部分條文修正草案 案件及法制法部分條文修正草案 案件及法制法部分條文修正草案 案件及法制法部分條文修正草案 案件及法制法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":5660.872,"end":5679.508,"text":"所以這裏面就 我知道滿多委員有提的因為他的資格條件的限制上那這一個裏面就會有兩個是不是像現在黨團所提的這些條文那就是你第一項跟後面這一項大概有稍微就有點從法上來看就有點不一樣"},{"start":5681.929,"end":5695.595,"text":"法律有缺漏,為什麼你知道嗎?你像比如說我們現在勞基法的規定,適用勞基法的勞工在勞動節上班,工資依法加倍罰期對不對?你理解我你那個編制相關預算上你還沒有去寫這張啊,你有沒有編?也沒有?九月,九月我們給你的工作,這張特別注意一下。一般勞工,不然你在那個勞動節那天你叫他上班。"},{"start":5710.319,"end":5712.481,"text":"等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5726.618,"end":5754.213,"text":"那這個地方進來以後你看立法院我看很多辦公室的助理這樣流來流去有久了以後我相信很多人會熱情耗盡往往會向社會去低頭有的去另抹出路或者有的跳來跳去那其實國會助理是一個非常需要去累積經驗的一個地方對於整個民主法制的一個建構也都有它的一個貢獻那以日本為例來看的話日本他們設有政策擔當秘書資格的試驗"},{"start":5756.454,"end":5777.83,"text":"通過率五趴,月薪四十三萬三千兩百塊的一票,像我們台灣12萬的台幣。這個其實我們自己的國會裡面,如果我們要鼓勵有志深耕國會者,讓他有對未來的資源更有想像空間的話,至少這個部分我們去做一個提升,是我們可以思考的一個對象。"},{"start":5781.357,"end":5781.657,"text":"主席賴瑞隆等23人擬具"},{"start":5804.58,"end":5805.741,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5834.774,"end":5848.603,"text":"我們更希望整個國會助理的待遇可以來提升,還有我們立法院我剛提出秀那些照片給民進黨看的,我們趕快去把它馬上去改善啦,不要說自己說的,那沒用演繹的啦,有心沒心而已,好,秘書長。"},{"start":5850.151,"end":5855.056,"text":"賴瑞隆等16人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案件及其中一條條文修正草案案 案件及其中一條條條文"},{"start":5875.094,"end":5884.242,"text":"你這算立法院的老先鋼啦,這如果讓到該官喔,國會這的助力大家都會給你打破我啦,好不好。謝謝,謝謝。好,謝謝莊委員,謝謝秘書長。接下來有請黃委員、國昌發言。"},{"start":5907.037,"end":5930.907,"text":"關於整個國會改革的法案在運作上面我們當然希望核心是有關於國會聽證調查制度的建立以及人事同意權強化的審查這個是我這次認為國會改革的重中之重"},{"start":5931.809,"end":5952.116,"text":"在這兩個重點核心條文之外我們要外延去修其他的條文我覺得當然也應該可以考慮但我們在修條文以前有一些事實跟法律面必須要先確定因為這一次相關所提出來不管是委員還是黨團所提出來的版本"},{"start":5953.156,"end":5977.284,"text":"案件,有認為說我們應該要向地方議會的某些制度看齊,人沒來的時候也沒有關係,反正按照預定的時間來質詢。這個就牽涉到有一些爭議,因為當初有立委人不在現場,然後質詢被跳過去的時候,馬上衝到院長的辦公室,"},{"start":5978.224,"end":5995.72,"text":"韓國瑜院長禮拜五下午是不是要出去玩?是不是跑去喝酒?按照我們立法院調查的結果那天下午韓國瑜有跑出去玩還是跑出去喝酒嗎?來請秘書長所以他沒有出去玩也沒有出去喝酒嗎?"},{"start":6004.403,"end":6020.792,"text":"秘書長沒有啦事實先確定就好了嘛那天發生爭議的那天禮拜五中午的時候最後一位質詢王洪威質詢完的時候我在立法院IVOD上面看到是12點08分"},{"start":6022.915,"end":6033.299,"text":"我的理解有沒有錯誤?那12點08分按照我們的議事規則或是立法院相關的慣例啊是應該要繼續質詢下去還是中午應該要休息?所以接下來的下一個委員就是要下午質詢嗎?"},{"start":6052.925,"end":6054.266,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":6072.378,"end":6094.754,"text":"按照這一個登記擬定質詢的順序跟時間依照表定的時間來進行質詢在立法理由裡面我拜讀了他說是要保障立法委員的質詢權不受議事進行狀況所減損依照第一項登記名單擬定質詢的順序及期期的時間定了就不會動了這樣子的修法"},{"start":6095.655,"end":6095.916,"text":"秘書長,贊不贊成?"},{"start":6104.231,"end":6130.247,"text":"這個制度的某部分,因為方委在當場有提的,我們立即做研究以後,如果照這個法修完以後,就會變造成委員還是沒辦法解決,就官員一定要坐在那邊等到了。這就是我的問題嘛,委員改書面,突然改書面,就像我剛剛講的那個例子吧。"},{"start":6131.277,"end":6153.516,"text":"本來輪到他質詢的時候要到下午了你不可能叫中午的時候院長所有的議事人員為了配合你的方便中午不休息繼續質詢嘛那下午的他下午有行程就跑了嘛跑了他要改書面那我的問題就來啦那如果立委質詢改書面或質詢行政院長所有的部會首長要坐在那邊等嗎"},{"start":6155.02,"end":6181.069,"text":"如果說法修還是一樣會造成這個現象好那第二個事情是說民進黨黨團也提一個版本出來我看了很有意思他說機關或是機構在調查委員會行使調查權的時候沒有正當理由不可以拒絕拖延引力不提供文件資料或物件重點是下面違反前項規定提報院會決議處新台幣一萬以上三十萬以下罰還"},{"start":6182.892,"end":6186.853,"text":"48條的組織是機關機構第二項是要罰誰?罰機關機構嗎?我看了很困惑就像我叫農業部把報告交出來一旦去哪裡買的跟誰買的我要了兩個月到今天還在拖延如果按照這個新法我們是罰農業部嗎?農業部不交罰農業部拿納稅的預算來繳罰款"},{"start":6213.306,"end":6238.861,"text":"這個有什麼嚇阻的作用啊來請秘書長表示意見好沒有關係啊看一下44585啊44585有這麼限縮嗎民進黨黨團的版本有兩大問題啊第一個說謊的時候要怎麼處理我對說謊的時候要怎麼處理這件事情特別有感因為我們的國會官員啊"},{"start":6240.58,"end":6263.207,"text":"我們的政府官員在國會裡面被抓到說謊不曉得幾次了從來沒有人負責連昨天司法院秘書長我問他說2016的時候賴浩敏、蘇永青是不是因為總統換屆有提前請辭我問他他說他不便表示意見"},{"start":6264.187,"end":6284.489,"text":"那奇怪囉換其他立委問他的時候他說是因為任期戒了所以什麼所以才遲這根本是胡扯啊2016年的時候人家辭職書五月就提出來了啦只是總統不批七月的時候才公佈啊那哪是任期戒制啊"},{"start":6286.892,"end":6315.345,"text":"是忘了說當年夏天還提了兩位不適任的司法院正副院長引發民間社會大反彈啊那個時候蔡英文才把那個時候夏天提的司法院正副院長的名單撤回重新提才有我們許仲麗老師上去當大院長嘛這個簡單的客觀的歷史事實都可以在國會裡面胡扯第二個重要的事情是什麼世紀585講得很清楚啊"},{"start":6316.172,"end":6344.353,"text":"他規範的對象是什麼?與調查事項相關的人民或政府人員有限於機關機構嗎?有限於只有政府人員嗎?4585號不是寫得很清楚嗎?連人民都包括在裡面啊這不是國會固有的調查權嗎?怎麼我們自己由黨團提出來的所謂的國會改革的法案竟然裡面有志工條款"},{"start":6346.475,"end":6366.147,"text":"規範的範圍比四字五八五號還要限縮啊我看了真的是瞠目結舌啊這是哪門子國會改革啊國會改革是限縮國會自己的權限四字五八五號白紙黑字寫在這邊結果在立法院職權行之法相應的條文"},{"start":6367.352,"end":6390.316,"text":"沒有規範所以我們現在才要推國會改革嘛但有一件更嚴重的事情跟今天國會改革有密切相關立法院我們過去這是我在追蹤很久的案子我們立法院之前用了一個民進黨的大樁腳叫做林耀廷"},{"start":6392.959,"end":6401.91,"text":"當職員。結果他在立法院任內的時候幹了什麼事情啊他竟然幫助跨國的洗錢集團把中國人非法引進到台灣來來幫助洗錢欸"},{"start":6410.795,"end":6424.181,"text":"檢察官的起訴書整個調查包括判決說我們立法院裡面有內鬼用偽造的文書找中國人來台灣幫助洗錢幫助詐騙律師長您仔細看喔"},{"start":6428.137,"end":6449.944,"text":"我把審判筆錄看完啊,審判筆錄說什麼?這個被告林耀廷在裡面講說,立法委員那邊啊,已經傳給承辦人了。委員會親自處理啊,放心,我也會去親自處理啊。他橫向聯繫了以後,再找立委把手伸進去啊,委員可以施壓行政機關啊。"},{"start":6451.732,"end":6473.444,"text":"這個嚴重的國安問題耶!非常嚴重的國安問題耶!我們立法院裡面竟然有內鬼去幫助外面的洗錢集團找立法委員施壓我們的行政機關施壓行政機關的範圍包括了什麼?NCC、移民署"},{"start":6475.094,"end":6501.541,"text":"幫這些洗錢集團快速審案可以用不實的文件拿到簽證來台灣幫忙洗錢這麼嚴重的影響台灣國家安全跟社會秩序的離譜情勢我們的立法院有成立調查小組調查過嗎?當然是免職嘛他一個人做得出這種事情來嗎?"},{"start":6502.984,"end":6523.685,"text":"在審判筆錄他自己承認的事情找立委施壓哪一個立委施壓這麼可惡幫詐騙洗錢集團用偽造的文件找中國人到台灣來還施壓我們的行政機關這個事情該不該調查秘書長"},{"start":6526.29,"end":6544.358,"text":"是該不該調查因為我不太了解沒有關係我給你時間去了解我來了解一下好不好可以嗎我不知道啦這個職員是不是因為是民進黨的大樁腳所以上屆的國會輕輕放下根本沒徹查嘛"},{"start":6547.557,"end":6575.835,"text":"今天有立委提啊說性騷要把他放到立法委員行為法裡面我老實講我個人是贊成的性騷也好性侵害也好性歧視也好都放進來沒有問題但我的問題很我的問題是立法技術的問題我們在其他的行為裡面都沒放就放個性騷來我列舉幾個啦請秘書長表示意見立委關說司法該不該放進去"},{"start":6579.946,"end":6593.895,"text":"秘書長 性騷不對嘛 絕對不應該嘛 立委關說司法該不該放進去建憲法好像已經有規定 有關說司法 來來來第二個 立委關說假釋要不要放進去"},{"start":6596.633,"end":6610.02,"text":"第三個立委用公帑到國外私匯小山要不要放進去?拿立法院的錢跑去日本在那邊私匯小山親中舔共這個要不要放進去?立委自己審預算自己撐起補助這個要不要放進去?我們在立法技術上要想清楚"},{"start":6626.158,"end":6637.612,"text":"哪一些該規範的條文啊全部都要放進去啊這很重要嘛秘書長你贊不贊成在尊重大家委員的要比較"},{"start":6639.804,"end":6667.103,"text":"詳細完整當然是剛才委員所提的啦不過司法案件好像第17條有規定啦對第17條在遊說那邊對啊阿你如果說覺得有規定那我就覺得很奇怪啦阿當初立委有關說司法什麼事也沒發生啊那我們今天該檢討的恐怕不是只有法律的規定喔是如果如同秘書長所講的法律已經有規定了阿怎麼說什麼事都沒發生"},{"start":6668.707,"end":6689.237,"text":"這個不是很奇怪的事嗎?這個才是我們今天討論立法委員行為法的時候應該要關切的重點之一嘛祕書長你讚不讚成?尊重大家委員大家合意剛才委員所提的那些各種都加入進去那由委員來合意啊好主席站起來了齁尊重主席謝謝"},{"start":6691.672,"end":6704.078,"text":"謝謝黃委員謝謝周秘書長我們今天審查的條文法案包括有立法院職權行使法以及立法委員行為法兩者是有些不太一樣謝謝接下來我們請林委員思明發言謝謝主席請秘書長請周秘書長"},{"start":6720.848,"end":6746.33,"text":"議員好,民主黨好。我想今天因為時間的關係,我想請就我們今天主要稀奇一尋答這幾個法案來請教秘書長。第一個就有關立法院組織法第十四條修正草案。議法院自秘書長一人、特任副秘書長一人並兼任本院的資通安全長推動及監督院內資通安全的相關事務。"},{"start":6747.796,"end":6774.579,"text":"那我想自通安全非常重要嘛我想秘書長一定同意但是這麼重要的一個職務現在修法說要由我們的副秘書長就特別又因為這個要設這個自通安全長那麼我們修法要建置一個副秘書長然後又由這個副秘書長來兼任我們的自通安全長"},{"start":6776.311,"end":6784.11,"text":"我想就教秘書長,副秘書長是不是一定他就具有知通安全的專業背景?"},{"start":6789.911,"end":6797.537,"text":"互負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負"},{"start":6816.09,"end":6827.992,"text":"之通安全管理法第十一條規定說公務機關應致之通安全長由機關的首長指派副首長或適當人員兼任"},{"start":6829.249,"end":6857.568,"text":"所以將依這一條的規定來看的話職通安全長不是一定要由副首長來兼任可以指派適當的人員兼任所以這樣的一個修法我看到這個修法提說就是由副秘書長陳院長之命並兼任本院職通安全長也就是說職通安全的這個事項就是由副秘書長來兼任"},{"start":6859.89,"end":6866.014,"text":"但是現在遇到一個狀況啊,副秘書長如果對自通安全完全他外行,他能夠領導統一嗎?"},{"start":6869.649,"end":6889.49,"text":"大概從法上來看是資安長大概來督導應該是督導這個自動安全的業務督導的內容很廣啊督導當然本身就要具有這方面的專業嘛你要督導你沒有這個專業背景怎麼督導"},{"start":6892.359,"end":6904.503,"text":"你怎麼督導這個自通的相關的安全的相關的這些細節這些業務你完全一竅不通啊你跟我講說你要去督導因為我該聽到那個民進黨的詢問現階段我們立法院對於自通安全的事項是怎麼樣子來處理"},{"start":6915.731,"end":6916.171,"text":"知通安全管理組織架構"},{"start":6933.058,"end":6956.057,"text":"第二是自動安全集合小組,他是任務編組第三個是個人資料管理小組,是本院各單位來組成你現在念的這個是我們現階段的我們的立法院對,沒錯的相關的一個規定依照我們的要點,立法院自動安全管理要點所以現在我們現在看這個版本,現在這次要修版本又說要成立自通安全處"},{"start":6957.518,"end":6958.799,"text":"案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":6979.949,"end":6995.007,"text":"其實目前其他單位目前都是在資訊處底下就有辦理這樣的工作當然有社資通安全長這個職務但是並沒有另外在社資通安全處這樣的狀況"},{"start":6996.969,"end":7025.154,"text":"所以我剛才聽到秘書長你是講說你要加強資訊處的相關的一個功能,就是資通安全的功能就可以達到維護資通的安全了嗎?是不是?你的意思是怎樣?因為我們有演繹過啦,因為資訊處裡面它的出規整在把資通安全納入進去我們處長大概是說這個業務上是沒有問題的而且其他各院的橫平性,其他各院也沒有受資通安全處"},{"start":7025.814,"end":7044.227,"text":"事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案案件事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案案件"},{"start":7054.174,"end":7067.259,"text":"我們就是資訊處的人員去辦理相關的事項,當然很多都是我們專職人員要四個,很多都是...就是你從現有的人員裡面去做調配嗎?做成立剛才講的好幾個小組嗎?有一個資訊安全小組嗎?"},{"start":7071.661,"end":7086.199,"text":"那我現在就說到底這些原來的資訊處的人員他有沒有去做過相關資訊安全的教育訓練如果他的他本來會的就是一個修電腦啦或者電腦的維護啦資訊安全他懂嗎"},{"start":7088.045,"end":7115.16,"text":"報告委員因為我們根據整個資料法規定的話像我們專責人要取得專業證照跟指揮證書我們都有依照規定所以有去做教育訓練有還有經過相關的考試是的認證有有都有OK好這樣我了解了所以我想所以以這個整個剛才的一個說明來講的話那秘書長你是同意說你也認為說應該是這一次的修法是沒有必要的"},{"start":7116.399,"end":7142.907,"text":"我們有研究過啦所以大概資安處不一定要成立但是把資安長名定在那邊因為現行就已經這樣的規範了所以我們在幕僚在處理的時候是認為資安長把他名定沒關係但資安處是各院評伍是不是要做這個大概我們在傾向是其實我一直心中一個疑問那為什麼不用資訊處長來兼資安長呢"},{"start":7144.984,"end":7148.548,"text":"事通安全管理法11條是規定由機關首長指派副首長或適當的人選兼任。"},{"start":7162.483,"end":7163.824,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文宣告"},{"start":7182.223,"end":7200.409,"text":"國事論壇是從我們立法院第幾屆就開始有了?我沒有記錯第二屆第四會期第四次會議就有了。就有了嗎?我剛才聽到您的詢問對於說國事論壇它是不是有繼續存在的必要性,您也做了很詳細的解釋。"},{"start":7202.33,"end":7218.858,"text":"那我想現在修法的一個理由好像是認為說會延宕議事那民進黨你認為會嗎?國事論壇這一個小時對我們的政府機關提出建言看法你認為這是要延宕議事嗎?我個人是比較保留啦"},{"start":7220.378,"end":7224.639,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草"},{"start":7249.524,"end":7260.814,"text":"案件嚴﹑增加立法委員監督的能量,這是一個很好的機制啊。我不曉得為什麼我們的執政黨的立委竟然認為說這個要把它廢除。"},{"start":7275.032,"end":7286.079,"text":"實事發生的相關的一些重要的正事在國事論壇提出自己的看法跟建言增加我們立法委員的監督能量我想這是非常正面有意義的"},{"start":7286.9,"end":7288.421,"text":"事由．立法院組織法部分條文宣告。"},{"start":7321.887,"end":7323.19,"text":"有請周秘書長和資訊處處長"},{"start":7330.619,"end":7358.031,"text":"三）委員你好那資訊處的我最後問了所以前面可以先休息一下那我知道周秘書長其實針對這些事情很多事你必須這是也是謹守中立的原則所以有一些問題我大概只是問一個大概那我現在因為我們今天好不容易可能可以進入竹條那我們之前在要做竹條的這個過程當中一直沒有辦法進去那我今天終於知道為什麼了為什麼因為"},{"start":7359.351,"end":7387.191,"text":"顯然要嘛就是我才短短坐在這邊一個小時造謠的造謠法律搞不清楚的法律搞不清楚資安搞不清楚的搞不清楚這種狀況太多了所以我現在才發現原來不進入主條可能最主要的原因是在於這裡第一個我先提到就是上會這件事情像假設我們今天打籃球打比賽打到一半裁判直接宣布6比0那這樣的球賽打不下去所以這也是為什麼那時候民進黨提出上會這件事情"},{"start":7387.992,"end":7404.626,"text":"但後來國民黨提出散會是什麼?是今天打球打到一半他們自己說我不打了我要走掉了所以他們不管怎麼做他們的重點都只是要讓會議沒有辦法往下進行所以剛剛這個羅志強委員一直在講說我們這個什麼走掉我們今天不讓這個散會就是獨裁"},{"start":7406.147,"end":7424.037,"text":"他自己沒有搞清楚到底什麼才叫做獨裁不進入主條、不進入討論然後回去剪抖音影片這完全不是一個國會議事堂我們應該做的事情直接做A答B很顯然是他的專長第二個就是關於說謊這件事情也就是藐視國會"},{"start":7425.578,"end":7442.313,"text":"若是國會雖然不在今天的討論裡面但是我剛剛聽到羅委員一直提到2016年的版本說我們今天並沒有把說謊納進那就是因為前面調查權的範圍不夠限縮然後也不夠明確所以我們根本就搞不清楚說謊的定義在哪裡所以只好先不怕的放進去嘛"},{"start":7442.913,"end":7455.906,"text":"所以這就連結到像剛剛黃國昌委員提到的他說今天機關跟機構為什麼我們今天不直接處罰人要處罰機關跟機構道理很簡單因為今天如果在質詢的時候機關跟機構造假"},{"start":7458.388,"end":7482.304,"text":"造假的人不一定是站在那邊講話的那一個人他可能只是被推出來的嘛就好像那天吳宗憲委員被推出來之後結果只好把這個會議的進行很快速的亂過去這背後是傅坤祺嘛所以我們真正應該是要讓機關機構來負責然後讓他們去把真正的行為人找出來這才是處罰的最好的方式嘛"},{"start":7482.964,"end":7502.621,"text":"所以我一直都認為說就是他並沒有去了解我們現在到底進行的方式是什麼他只想要讓站在那一邊的那個官員能夠被定能夠被處罰然後到時候再剪成影片然後呢像我們剛剛前面提的散會的不斷的把我們提出散會申請這件事情剪成短影片然後介紹給大家說我們民進黨是怎麼樣的干擾這完全是錯誤的資訊"},{"start":7506.684,"end":7523.967,"text":"然後接下來我還要提到但是我還是要肯定黃國昌委員一點就是他剛剛提到就是剛剛我們他說有這個人他這個把中國的這個資金詐騙什麼帶進來所以原來我不知道原來黃國昌委員那麼的想要去管制去中國這件事情"},{"start":7524.908,"end":7549.246,"text":"這就是這叫風險管控嘛為什麼今天詐騙集團能夠進來中國的詐騙集團能夠進來就是因為這些人能夠接觸啊所以如果今天有人跟中國的黨政軍跟詐騙集團有接觸這個要不要控管這個風險很高嘛欸那我提出了一個法案說這個要控管那為什麼民國民黨跟民眾黨在程序委員會就要直接把這個封殺掉剛剛不是說很關心這個問題嗎這個是不分黨派的啊"},{"start":7551.748,"end":7575.069,"text":"這個又不是只有規範國民黨的委員跟民眾黨的委員民進黨的委員一樣要受到規範不是嗎所以一個那麼重要的規範一個高風險管控的規範為什麼能夠在程序委員會就把他擋下來這個不合理嘛所以我想問一下秘書長就是我們現在在程序委員會直接把這個法案拿掉這樣會不會讓我們以後都沒有辦法做提案"},{"start":7576.072,"end":7576.633,"text":"條文宣誓"},{"start":7592.395,"end":7598.818,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":7619.509,"end":7639.987,"text":"資安處就是現在我們在提說跟這個資訊安全有關的非常重要的一點是因為IT跟資安在現在外面的大公司他們比較喜歡分開那很大的原因是因為IT他譬如說他委託了某一家公司做幫忙這家公司如果同時做資安的話反而會形成資安的漏洞所以會希望說他能夠把它拆開那至於拆開到底要放在同一個地方"},{"start":7640.627,"end":7668.989,"text":"還是說要分成兩個處我覺得這都可以討論但很明顯的是這一定會有人力的需求所以我們在後面有特別去強調就是說人力需求這件事情那接下來想要問的就是如果依照現在資訊安全處的判斷你們是比較希望還是把資安放在這個裡面那人力擴充然後讓他們兩邊如果有合作的這個廠商他要分開還是說要把他直接獨立出來變成一個處怎樣對你們來講是比較方便的或者說比較好做的"},{"start":7670.676,"end":7670.816,"text":"主席"},{"start":7700.896,"end":7701.176,"text":"條文宣告"},{"start":7733.171,"end":7761.734,"text":"謝謝主席 有請秘書長請周秘書長委員好終於終於今天我們可以針對民主進步黨國會改革幾個沒有政治爭議相對是非常正面打造權責相符的進步國會這樣的條文法案"},{"start":7762.194,"end":7791.158,"text":"可以進入詢答的程序,往前推進了一步。」我也非常期待下午我們要進入竹條我懇切的在這裡再一次呼籲國會改革不要再拖延國會改革不要再害怕下午竹條也希望能夠如同今天上午的會議一樣順順利利據說傅昆奇總召好像人還沒有來到立院啦"},{"start":7791.778,"end":7819.841,"text":"所以今天也許因為副總召還沒有指揮還沒有在場所以早上我們可以進行議事再一次拜託下一次下午如果副總召來到現場我希望他帶來的是讓我們可以逐條審查就事論事就法案論法案的這樣一個好的議事態度那進入我的主題之前呢我當然也要回應一下前面幾位委員的一些意見"},{"start":7821.102,"end":7834.763,"text":"當然羅志強委員在這裡謝謝你收了我送你的書你也回送我一本書這是一個很好的心靈交流我也謝謝吳宗憲委員送我的書我今天有帶來委員會看一起來看文藝復興我們都需要更多的文化感"},{"start":7835.734,"end":7853.869,"text":"那羅志強委員再一次拿出民主建部黨2016的版本。羅委員每一次都以為撿到槍,其實是見數不見零。我再一次要說明,修法就是與時俱進。您是立法院的新科立委,但您一定也知道借其不連續是什麼。"},{"start":7855.831,"end":7884.133,"text":"秘書長借其不連續就是立法院運行這麼多年每一個借其因應新的名義、新的代表性以及新的進步思維所以法案都要重新再來借其不連續就是讓立法委員基於新的名義、基於更進步的新思維然後將過去曾經提出的法案可以重新檢視所以民進黨在2016年的國會改革的版本"},{"start":7885.133,"end":7909.893,"text":"當下民主進步黨是國會多數如果要通過也可以通過但因為當時的國會調查權的這個章節社會沒有匯聚共識甚至也有違憲之餘所以在憲法之前人人都得低頭在民意之前國會議員更當低頭因此"},{"start":7911.36,"end":7924.944,"text":"民主進步黨沒有利用國會多數的時候強推法案。新的屆期、新的名義,民主進步黨今年推出來的國會改革方案就如同我們現在的版本,歡迎大家就事論事來檢視。"},{"start":7927.757,"end":7942.89,"text":"另外我也要回應黃國昌總召其實黃總召在自己開直播的時候他已經講了他的立場國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨"},{"start":7944.091,"end":7947.552,"text":"這也難怪我們在委員會這麼多次討論國會改革的版本從來沒有看過黃國昌委員針對國民黨所提的議案提出任何意見跟討論反而非常選擇性、非常針對性的來對民主進步黨的版本來做很多抹黑跟攻擊"},{"start":7965.509,"end":7984.62,"text":"如同剛剛講的ME TOO的法案他支持他不反對但是又利用了立法技術的理由搬出一堆是不是要做立法委員不當關說也要入法剛剛秘書長說明的很好嘛立法委員關說司法在其他的法律是不是也已經規範了"},{"start":7985.76,"end":7986.161,"text":"行為法17條就歸了。"},{"start":7999.056,"end":8009.999,"text":"涉及性騷、涉及性別平等反歧視的事項就應當這一次來修法入法所以黃國昌委員總是選擇性的來針對民進黨的版本提出不實的攻擊我再次強調如果有好的建議歡迎黃國昌委員在我們逐條審查的時候來跟民進黨的版本提出更好的意見我們一起來修法入法"},{"start":8028.945,"end":8052.221,"text":"我絕對樂見,但如果只是針對性選擇性的為攻擊而攻擊而且是政治立場凌駕了法律的專業。黃國昌委員說的國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨這一個宣示正足以來證明他在國會改革的議案上政治立場"},{"start":8053.001,"end":8063.804,"text":"已經凌駕了法律的專業。」我再一次說這是非常遺憾的事。好,進入我的PPT,進入我的第六頁,因為時間有限。民主黨,國會的功能有哪些?您對進步國會的想像有什麼?這個題目很大,大災問。那我可以請教您,您應當去過很多國家的國會參訪。"},{"start":8079.688,"end":8101.316,"text":"有沒有哪個進步國會的建築設計讓您印象深刻的嗎?你要看大或小,我個人大概有走了三十幾個國家,那幾個來看啦。當然你最大是奧奧坎培拉那個最大,但是奧迪那個是比較豪華的。"},{"start":8105.117,"end":8105.617,"text":"條文宣誓"},{"start":8123.348,"end":8124.729,"text":"條文修正草案案案 。"},{"start":8141.115,"end":8161.231,"text":"案件事,當時的也是非常心酸才能夠有這麼幾間研究室包括新郎。所以擴建本身我個人不反對,而且我個人以如果是硬體的設備來講當然在國內的一個運作上是有必要的。"},{"start":8165.134,"end":8184.639,"text":"所以我說民主進步黨提出了一個有關國會不管是簽建、擴建我們有一個具體的條文就是希望可以幫立法院一把來下一頁進步國會它是超越了一個物質性的建築的想像它其實承載了更多精神性的意涵"},{"start":8185.503,"end":8187.565,"text":"一）立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．一）立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":8214.765,"end":8222.336,"text":"對外呢．一個國會．他更會是國會外交重點的場域．他也可能成為民主觀光的景點。這是吳思瑤對於一個進步國會的綜合想像。下一頁。"},{"start":8229.522,"end":8245.876,"text":"我是一個建築迷,大家都知道這幾個列出來的國會,譬如說柯比奕他為印度國會設計的香地格的國會。譬如說這個奧斯卡尼馬爾在巴西所設計的巴西國會。"},{"start":8247.057,"end":8261.182,"text":"亦包括美國知名的建築師Louis Kahn他在孟加拉打卡的國會這都是所有的觀光客、建築迷、專業領域者會去朝聖的國會景點。下一頁您剛講的德國柏林的新國會我個人當然非常的激賞、肯定它有三個時代性的意義當柏林圍牆1989年打開了以後"},{"start":8276.187,"end":8291.763,"text":"德國人認為要給民主的進程一個新的重要建築的象徵所以請了英國普利茲克獎的建築師Norman Foster1992年動手1994年完工他有一個政治民主意涵的"},{"start":8293.127,"end":8320.233,"text":"歷史意義。第二個,他設計了一個玻璃的窮頂人民可以走到最高位的至高點往下透過玻璃看著國會議員在那裡問政這象徵的意義就是打開國會國會是透明的讓陽光照進來人民可以在最高位由上往下看這些國會議員彰顯的就是人民是最高位這是第二個透明的國會新時代意義"},{"start":8322.654,"end":8346.075,"text":"第三條建築實踐的就是最新的環保綠建築的功能。它不只材料選擇再生材料,它整個發電系統都是再生能源。所以為什麼德國的這個民主、扣民、公開、實踐及大成的國會建築成為德國現在。每到德國、到柏林都要去學習、參觀、經驗。"},{"start":8350.058,"end":8357.183,"text":"experience的一個重要民主建築。所以反觀看看臺灣我很快速的再跟主席爭取多一點時間。下一頁。"},{"start":8360.529,"end":8386.903,"text":"有在野黨說國會擴建只是想花錢。錯。國會如果擴建、簽建顯然受惠的也不再是我們這些坐在這裡的國會議員。我們要打造的是一個為了新世代的新國會。那時候的新的民意他們需要一個更好的民主象徵的歷史性的建築。下一頁。立法院能不升級嗎?當初為了反攻大陸"},{"start":8388.437,"end":8404.285,"text":"免強屈就於第二高女應漏就檢,把教室當作一場辦公室。」他當然不合用。下一頁。立法院能不升級嗎?立法院就是一個拼裝車。我們在場這麼多媒體朋友,他們的國會連線是擠在我們黨團辦公室前面那個走廊欸。"},{"start":8410.814,"end":8430.676,"text":"立法院有很多的違建就因為因漏就檢立法院的職員們在那個昏暗的擁擠的辦公空間裡面來工作怎麼能夠提升整個辦公環境跟問政績效呢?狹小的空間早已不敷需求而且秘書長你很清楚立法院是有違建的下一頁"},{"start":8433.499,"end":8449.885,"text":"立法院把教室當會議室我秀出來的就是我們吳宗憲委員說他藏了八支麥克風在口袋我才知道原來司法法制委員會有八支麥克風我們常常在審查預算的時候我過去在教育委員會很痛苦每一個委員要發言那個麥克風要傳來傳去地來地去"},{"start":8453.166,"end":8482.006,"text":"就是一個非常落伍的開會空間更不要說我們來後面都會有一個要顯示我們的含氧量二氧化碳濃度的超標的這個設置為什麼要?因為它的通風不夠常常一個小小的辦公室擠進多少個行政官員、幕僚人員、國會助理、立法委員所以才會有開會空間要有二氧化碳濃度超標一場人超標了大家趕快出去休息一下"},{"start":8483.198,"end":8509.089,"text":"這是台灣的國會所以我們在面對歷史國會的擴建、牽涉不是為了這些立法委員想要花錢、想要自肥台灣是世界華人民主的基地台灣是民主同盟國家大家同學、同工戰在一個好的民主的表現的國家台灣值得一個進步的國會"},{"start":8510.68,"end":8526.277,"text":"正如同您一樣。最後一頁,由錫堃院長已經啟動了2021年的專家委員會,也責定了六處的簽建場址。如果簽建不成,原地擴建也是選項。"},{"start":8527.759,"end":8550.206,"text":"由錫昆他創下了這樣的歷史使命我相信韓國瑜院長也應當讓國會的歷史性的重建、牽涉的歷史性的使命要跟上來好嗎我們後續再討論也希望主席我可以請求針對這個主題其實是可以安排共聽會我們讓專業者好好來討論台灣值得一個好的國會謝謝"},{"start":8555.618,"end":8573.102,"text":"謝謝吳委員的提議。好,謝謝祕書長。如果真的立法院能夠簽到一個台灣比較交通的中心啊,我們南部國進智能的委員就不用花那麼多的交通資源了。謝謝吳委員的提議。好,現在我們一前前的宣告休息五分鐘。"},{"start":8944.568,"end":8944.948,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8964.368,"end":8965.028,"text":"主席各位委員同仁"},{"start":8994.389,"end":9020.358,"text":"剛才吳斯堯委員講一句很重要的話台灣是法院世界裡面民主價值的典範這是我們國會的驕傲但是呢我們都知道整個國會改革是本會期中重中之重的法案那整個過程也許今天經過兩禮拜四次會議今天可能委會能夠開多久還在未定之天"},{"start":9021.67,"end":9045.022,"text":"因為副總操終於出現了,也許到執行結束以後,因為接下去有比較深水區的所謂國會改革版本,因為之前新司法所以今天我要再講說那天我們開完會以後,就是禮拜一直接沒收委員會"},{"start":9046.499,"end":9072.386,"text":"法院竟然換言之就是說整個過程來看我們當所有作為他們當招委的時候上禮拜一當招委的時候直接擬押過去所以這種會當然我們會提三位同意來主卻他輔助會委員那禮拜四我們審的時候他還來三位同意他是不讓你開就是我們版本不讓你開"},{"start":9074.028,"end":9099.636,"text":"那禮拜一、這禮拜一也是一樣,這禮拜一是這個另外三法比較不具敏感性的他直接給你三位都議。換言之就是沒收委員會。所以當天我們記者會的標語叫什麼?我會晚割。南白聯手沒收委員會。這是非常嚴重的事情啊。為什麼呢?"},{"start":9100.598,"end":9129.444,"text":"以往藍白一趟過班的時候,若有立法院組織法的委員會、立法院組織法專案報告,只要立法院組織法因為他們有供給不立法的話,他馬上可以提三位都議。國會什麼時候可以走到今天呢?蔣介石在這裡也不敢如此。過去國民黨也曾經國會都出過,我們少數執政時候,他也不敢如此。整個三十年來,這一刻是最荒謬的一刻。"},{"start":9131.294,"end":9153.211,"text":"那我看禮拜二陳希維委員會什麽樣所提的法案對於國會議員參加民意會議要有一些規範乃至於行政所長等等到大陸去要有規範陳希維給你完全封殺本來的民主倒退了30年"},{"start":9155.616,"end":9173.526,"text":"黨會三十年。法院黨過去,從我進來的時候,本本都是多數,我們大部分時間在反對黨。於是乎陳旭迴一致擋案。光馬英九執政那八年,整個法院黨的疑亂都有案子。疑亂都有案子,這樣很驚悚吧?"},{"start":9174.693,"end":9193.332,"text":"那今天從為如此,一個莫說委會、一個陳毅委員把你擋住,請問這個國會還有存在的價值嗎?這國會還亂了下去嗎?這難道不是民主軟膏嗎?今天我們在這裡,好像可以繼續審查事情下去。"},{"start":9194.52,"end":9218.879,"text":"他是默說你執行、默說你所有提案說明、默說你逐一條討論的空間。今天不是國民黨良心發現,等一下傅文綺委員出現的時候,大家都知道傅文綺跟黃國勳兩人是厲害所在。所以我們今天大家好好看。那接下來我要講說"},{"start":9220.84,"end":9243.215,"text":"整個國家在整個選完以後我們一晚開議二月二十到今天兩個月這兩個月時間發生什麼事情呢?整個國家的軸線完全傾斜扭曲天地顛倒北線亂震無所不用其極國會不耐擴錢我要講一句話說請各位注意聽"},{"start":9249.366,"end":9277.097,"text":"全世界沒有一個政黨乃至於曾榮武會表演自殺式的神功特工隊但此時此刻國民黨跟民眾黨胡文綺跟黃國昌兩個連鎖是表演什麼讓大家睜大眼睛看他表演自殺性的神功特工隊何其愚蠢啊我不相信民意不反撲"},{"start":9278.902,"end":9301.124,"text":"他整個國會改革完全脫移憲政框架,以稀修憲的部分他用修法來完成。五八二四是講得很清楚啊,他是中情手段是可以罰款,竟然國民黨版本是二期刑法事後三年以下有期徒刑。"},{"start":9302.421,"end":9324.949,"text":"好!立法院所謂官員一執行的時候以七位陳述記者提供答案以後藐視國會之前撒你一哈你立法院也不可以反執行已經執行修到幾問幾答當然是共同這個時間過去這個代理法院"},{"start":9326.264,"end":9338.804,"text":"國民黨執政的時候吳征宜專門反執勤的而且他口才又好但是這是沒有辦法大家對證的不可以反執勤"},{"start":9340.091,"end":9357.395,"text":"所以包括行政院長一總之因為說稀微陳述一年以下有期徒刑難怪傅文綺在二月初的二月十二就喊出一種一個話大家注意聽一句話當你們民進黨找不到官員來做請問這是未來國會是走向這樣嗎這個比北韓比共和國還糟糕董建勳暫時也不敢如此"},{"start":9369.69,"end":9391.707,"text":"也就是說兩個人黃國昌跟胡文綺兩人所合作的時候可以決定這個台灣的未來他們甚至認為他可以轉動全球兩位胡文綺趕快趕到大陸去哪一個既然要交代反送中法萬一搞到重修"},{"start":9392.688,"end":9416.353,"text":"賴瑞隆等13人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案"},{"start":9421.124,"end":9440.79,"text":"總統表演自殺式,民意不會橫幅嗎?所以黃國昌講了一句話,只要不妨礙他的國會改革,他基本上是人眼旁觀。但是另外一句話叫為虎作倉,這根本就是為虎作倉嘛。"},{"start":9442.161,"end":9458.674,"text":"實問人員旁觀,你天天直播罵柯建民,你安撫一些小草,你認為民意是如此嗎?他今天來執行,從來不面對問題,回避問題,回味舊照,講一些零星的問題,立法機制問題。"},{"start":9460.263,"end":9480.812,"text":"這是紅窩倉自己要去面對的,但是你們兩人合作,這樣合作的時候造成整個國家傷害,對你們政黨的傷害,人民不可能信任你們。尤其我們看到朱立文竟然講說要叫總統來做國情報告,要急問急答,憂於總之情。"},{"start":9486.636,"end":9489.417,"text":"請問總統這種文明報告沒有問題啊當然是質疑問其他還要輸入報告這個作為報告嗎?這違憲的在合憲性底下連住民把這個黨這位黃文綺、黃文昌把他們黨和國家整個毀去掉"},{"start":9510.029,"end":9529.317,"text":"在核心議題下,你要做什麼都沒問題。憲法規定很清楚啊,第四條就來做國情報告。但是憲法的設計上是潛力分立原則,互相制衡的。國家最高、有三條國家最高情任機關就是行政院。"},{"start":9530.424,"end":9554.35,"text":"那個三條規定,立法院的職權,立法院的職權是一節、一宗案、法律案、宣戰、過河條案等等。然後香港政策條件寫得很清楚,總統也是明顯的,他民意紀錄比我們任何一個人還高,他得的做過票。所以香港政策條件講得很清楚,他只派行政院長,他任命的,來立法院做施政報告,也是施政方針。"},{"start":9555.546,"end":9584.746,"text":"有備刑的義務,當然相對,第三條寫得很清楚,相對立法院有執行之前,這是憲法框架上,你創設憲法所謂的東西,然後去做違憲斷證,無限擴權,當然是違憲。我不知道朱英文主席,他在想到什麼地方去。整個,整個,我看到整個在野黨所謂精英從馬英九一降,都是如此。"},{"start":9585.888,"end":9606.261,"text":"我們希望國家不是這樣傾斜的。來久回來可以說要修反省政法,乃至於國安無法都要修。各位,要了解民意在看待你們,歷史這一刻是對台灣極度的影響。我們每一個人都要向憲法低頭。"},{"start":9607.582,"end":9630.319,"text":"這是憲政時刻,所以不要胡說八道,然後每一個民進黨立法院沒有人敢很用力捍衛他的版本,因為無奈狀,因為後面有胡文綺在,後面有黃國昌在。這就是如此嘛,你們很無奈寫在臉上,你們敢搖在內心裡面,我們都很清楚。"},{"start":9631.806,"end":9645.956,"text":"各位,都是立法院,大家同時站起來,如果站出來,捍衛國家尊嚴,捍衛所有爭議,請不要忘記,我最後再陳述,民意一定會反撲,你注意看。好,謝謝我們柯委員。接下來有請政委員天才發言。"},{"start":9670.251,"end":9697.35,"text":"主席．各位委員．有請祕書長請周祕書長祕書長好現法徵修條文第十條第十二項規定國家應依民族意願保障原住民組織地位及政治倡議而且還特別明定要制定"},{"start":9698.328,"end":9726.71,"text":"原住民族基本法以及還有很多相關的法例。在105年8月1號蔡總統就任之後的三個月在8月1號蔡總統特別向原住民族道歉並做了很大的承諾說要制定原住民族自治法"},{"start":9727.608,"end":9753.042,"text":"以及原住民族土地及海域法這是他的承諾在105年8月1號就任之後向全國的人民承諾會很快的將原住民族自治法及原住民族土地及海域法送到立法院甚至行政院"},{"start":9754.994,"end":9779.655,"text":"的秘書長在一百零五年年底也特別先是還且講了兩次會在一百零五年十二月底以前把這個原住民族土地及海域法送到立法院但是因為第八、第九屆、第十屆的立法院民進黨絕對多數"},{"start":9782.529,"end":9807.239,"text":"所以相關他們不需要的法律他們就請行政院就不要送來所以已經承諾的事情寧可防悔不送來是這樣的一個情形所以呢本席跟高金素梅立委特別提出這個立法院組織法第三十三條的條文因為現行的條文對"},{"start":9809.997,"end":9817.302,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":9839.025,"end":9855.888,"text":"立法院過去都很重視原住民但是在過去的8年來我們非常非常的失望我就舉個例子就業服務法民國81年三讀通過其中24條當時的憲法還是叫三包"},{"start":9865.168,"end":9882.561,"text":"但是當時的就業服務法三讀通過的時候原住民的立委說三包要行政院的草案送到立法院是三包就業服務法原住民的立委說要改為原住民雖然憲法"},{"start":9884.545,"end":9910.973,"text":"在民國83年8月1號才改為上報才改為那個原住民但是具備服務法在立法院尊重原住民的情況之下在民國81年具備服務法就用原住民這三個字所以立法院是一個展現人民意志的地方而基於少數的原住民"},{"start":9912.13,"end":9935.646,"text":"怎樣去落實政府、中華民國政府怎樣去落實憲法徵修條文第十條第十二項的規定就是要靠立法院所以要靠立法院就必須怎樣去重視原住民的立法委員的意見所以本席跟高金素梅立委特別提到"},{"start":9938.044,"end":9961.512,"text":"對於這個黨團的成立,原住民立委應該要有一個自主性,而不要受到相關的這些,因為加入原住民黨團的時候,原來的那個政黨就必須要退出,像這樣的怎麼樣去解決,所以本席提出這樣的一個條文。秘書長你的意見如何?"},{"start":9962.475,"end":9962.495,"text":"案 。"},{"start":9976.578,"end":10000.003,"text":"檔團第一項裡面是排除嘛但是那個總數啊黨團的這一個總數現在是五個那我有跟他報告如果這一個立法政策決定要修正的話那就要加上那幾個文字的我已經有跟高金委員報告過我這邊其實文字是可以再檢討但怎麼樣去那個去保障這個部分"},{"start":10000.922,"end":10021.19,"text":"另外就是上次有跟這個秘書長稍微提了一下原住民的立法委員的選期因為是台、彭、金吧但是現在立法院的所有的對立委個別的相關的權益都是用7億的立委的去規劃像這個"},{"start":10025.427,"end":10028.709,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":10052.558,"end":10077.894,"text":"從新走雲到滿洲鄉還要兩個小時六分鐘所以這麼遠的時間一個小時加三十四分加兩個小時加六分等於是三個多小時將近四個小時我只是舉例子如果從花蓮出發要到滿洲鄉也一樣搭火車到枋寮三個小時三十五分鐘枋寮到滿洲要一個多小時"},{"start":10079.053,"end":10079.393,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":10105.967,"end":10129.506,"text":"好,謝謝我們政委員。接下來請紅委員孟凱發言。紅委員孟凱不在,我們接下來請王委員紅薇發言。好,謝謝主席。我請那個周秘書長。好,請周秘書長。"},{"start":10135.352,"end":10154.361,"text":"二十三號有關於廢死的憲法法庭的辯論,引起社會各界非常多的關心。在整個的辯論庭裡面,其中法務部表達了世上現在的死刑是何現。"},{"start":10155.962,"end":10169.812,"text":"而且在法務部的代表當庭的意見他也講得非常清楚他講到世界各國的做法還有在整個的經歷FACE的一個歷程那其中其實法務部他們比較同意的他們所持的意見說這樣的議題應該是留給立法部門來決定"},{"start":10182.961,"end":10183.682,"text":"法務部的意見您同意嗎?"},{"start":10201.755,"end":10227.663,"text":"如果從這一個大法官他的執掌當然他可以做解釋啦那如果解釋以後他的解釋結果是怎麼樣那如果是說比如說他認為現在必須要修憲那你那邊要修必須要修法那當然會要走到立法院來就必須走到立法院來現在越來越多其實包含我也注意到民進黨的一些立委也都認為喔"},{"start":10228.883,"end":10241.101,"text":"要不要廢死應該是由立法部門來決定您作為我們立法院的秘書長你支持嗎其實廢不廢死應該要由立法部門來決定"},{"start":10243.577,"end":10267.006,"text":"所以你不願意表示意見那另外就是如果大法官做出釋憲說此刑是違憲的那麼當然在過去的慣例上就會讓我們立法部門來修法那麼立法部門如果我們拒絕修法可不可以"},{"start":10268.491,"end":10292.863,"text":"這會發生以前的司法院組織法的時候立法院就沒有配合了就沒有配合修法所以事實上是可以不配合修法對不對有這個例過了就是前例有司法院組織法然後在立法院並不配合大法官的釋憲結果來修法所以我們是可以不配合修法"},{"start":10294.209,"end":10315.799,"text":"我只能說有這個理由。我想羅委員特別有,我有看到他昨天的對外的官員。我想不只羅委員,其實我們立法院非常多位的委員。我相信連民進黨的很多委員也不會配合修法。這個配合修法還得了。所以按照慣例,我們可以不配合修法。"},{"start":10316.539,"end":10317.339,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10338.003,"end":10357.796,"text":"好 廳長好因為今天我們討論的是我們立法院那個職權行使法但是呢在我們這一次的憲法法庭的這個各項意見裡面我們先撇開有一些這個力求主張廢死的團體的一些我認為是非常極端性言論不談"},{"start":10359.077,"end":10363.32,"text":"其中大法官詹森林他的談話其實是引起非常大的注目而且也非常大的質疑詹森林他說大法官的判決不一定要跟民意去妥協這點大家覺得非常質疑那他的立論基礎是什麼呢"},{"start":10381.013,"end":10397.839,"text":"他說因為大法官是經過立法院來同意的而法官你們沒有民意基礎喔他說大法官是有民意基礎因為是立法院來同意他擔任大法官"},{"start":10400.02,"end":10418.23,"text":"法官因為你沒有民基處,所以你當然沒有這個權利去判處死刑。請問一下廳長,有關於這位大法官的意見,你同意嗎?主席這邊提醒,請本宇之權回答。今天討論的是法案巡檔。"},{"start":10419.52,"end":10422.362,"text":"主席,等一下時間暫停,時間暫停,我有權宜問題。你說。我也有權宜問題。欸,主席我覺得你這樣不對喔,抱歉我也要幫王宏偉講話喔。王宏偉質詢的時候他也沒跟你做任何詢問,也沒叫你做任何才事,你可以打斷他嗎?對啊。你不可以打斷他。主席你這樣是不正義的。"},{"start":10439.952,"end":10445.314,"text":"他要不要回答?委員長自己會決定。他自己會決定。你憑什麼下次到期要求時間暫停或延長?你要延長時間請徵詢主席的意見。時間延長一分鐘。他現在在質詢台,他在質詢台是他的質詢時間。"},{"start":10460.74,"end":10460.76,"text":"談論中﹗"},{"start":10484.363,"end":10485.144,"text":"對,因為我覺得今天就是我也要為很多廣大的民眾來詢問啊"},{"start":10492.397,"end":10516.132,"text":"這當然很重要啊我不瞭解為什麼我們的主席要阻止阻止官員來回答他也有他的自由意志啊 對不對那我剛才的詢問聽講你同不同意法官因為沒有民意基礎所以他不應該判死刑你同意這樣的論述嗎"},{"start":10521.107,"end":10533.925,"text":"你下面很多法官喔報告委員我今天是就立法院之間行司法來代表本院回答那關於剛才您所推薦的那個大法官當"},{"start":10535.327,"end":10556.263,"text":"延遲辯論停的發言,那我想我們也不辯表示意見,這是大法官他的意見。所以你們就是自己閹割自己的權利啊。我要特別講的,大法官竟然以他是立法院同意,然後他具有所謂的民意基礎。如果最有民意基礎的,那不應該是立法機關嗎?那還輪得到由大法官來釋憲嗎?"},{"start":10560.626,"end":10574.418,"text":"所以我為什麼今天要特別去做這樣的詢問也要凸顯在整個憲法法庭裡面大法官他的這個言論之荒腔走板"},{"start":10575.492,"end":10577.112,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草"},{"start":10597.777,"end":10603.9,"text":"之前就做了制止。我也尊重我們廳長的回答但是我覺得今天我們的主席事實上是剝奪了我們的一個質詢權。以上。謝謝王委員的詢答。我們主席這邊說明剛剛我們是請司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳的廳長"},{"start":10622.523,"end":10639.84,"text":"那主席我們邀請政府機關官員來列席是就我們本次會議的議案內容來進行詢答主席提醒委員那麼如果說委員要關心的議題我想我們兩位輪值召委都很樂意"},{"start":10640.981,"end":10661.635,"text":"來設法安排相關的議程就針對議題的內容邀請適當的政府機關的列席人員前來進行說明那當然行政訴訟及懲戒廳的廳長能否回答今天議題以外的其他問題我們尊重行政機關跟詢問委員的權利主席在這裡說明那也請各位委員在發言當中"},{"start":10662.395,"end":10691.494,"text":"若有任何的權宜問題,例如說需要時間暫停,也請透過主席來指示會議工作人員。主席一向在發言時間上跟發言內容上都充分的尊重各位委員的權利。那這位剛剛的內容呢,如果說稍微打斷我們會議的程序,也在這裡跟所有的與會委員表示一些歉意。後續我會盡量的讓委員暢所欲言。那必要的提醒內容呢,我們就請適度的官員,請你適度的了解。接下來我們有請賴委員事保發言。"},{"start":10692.655,"end":10696.339,"text":"賴委員世保不在,我們有請翁委員小林發言。"},{"start":10712.891,"end":10741.573,"text":"安委員好好的對於這個這次立法院好諸位多位委員有提出國會改革法案我在這裡我表示我是支持國會全面改革不管是外部改革內部改改革或是針對我們自己立法院的軟體硬體各方面的改革我都認為有必要性尤其是我們這個我出"},{"start":10742.073,"end":10745.474,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":10773.889,"end":10782.344,"text":"將國會就本身自己的改革可以做一些適度的檢討、研析然後提出相關的法案。那麼陳茹剛剛"},{"start":10785.405,"end":10797.778,"text":"而吳思良委員有提到我們現在國會辦公室呢確實是老舊空間又狹窄那麼很多地方是不足的就空間使用是沒有效率而且也不足的那麼在網傳就網路上面報這個網路上傳"},{"start":10803.604,"end":10817.999,"text":"傳說有委員在辦公室養狗而且還有占用會議室等等這些行徑。不知道秘書長這邊有沒有指揮我們的立法院的同仁去調查瞭解是否真有這樣的一個情形。"},{"start":10819.059,"end":10840.564,"text":"那是大概以前的事吧我是看好像最近好像也還有繼續有這樣子一個新聞如果沒有的話那可能也要請立法院這裡做一個這個更正這個新聞否則的話大家真的會一直會認為我們在立法院裡面是不是到現在還有委員這個戰友辦公室會議室養寵物"},{"start":10842.344,"end":10844.926,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":10866.687,"end":10871.19,"text":"就是民進黨委員他們在這次提的比較像是對內的這個國會改革的法案裡面我也發現了有擴權的現象有擴權的這個問題那在賴瑞隆委員所提出來的法案當中主要是針對立法委員行為法的這個幾個條文的修法其中在第二條裡面"},{"start":10892.722,"end":10897.952,"text":"非常明顯他就擴大了現在立法委員關係人的範圍。不知道"},{"start":10901.243,"end":10905.184,"text":"秘書長這裡怎麼樣去看我們賴委員這裡所提出來的擴大立法委員關係人的範圍那麼將關係人從配偶到兩親等的親屬甚至還連代替立委處理事務者事務的相關人員全部都納入立法委員的關係人的範圍裡面"},{"start":10927.911,"end":10943.158,"text":"我正在想是未來幫我們清潔的那些清潔人員或是幫我們處理一些簡單影印事物的公讀生全部都要納入到這裡所謂的立委的關心人的範圍。不知道周秘書長怎麼看這樣子的一個修法?"},{"start":10944.226,"end":10961.113,"text":"因為我大概拜讀了幾次賴委員的提案尤其對於關西人的他是引用立法跟有稅法裡面把他納過來所以我才會特別說"},{"start":10962.859,"end":10986.555,"text":"這有立法委員有沒有特別在對這一個的屬性在特別規範啊那因為關係人擴大了相當大所以我才在剛才報告來說這一個有委員來做這個立法政策的選擇因為這個關係人照立法的話是範圍是相當大的一個沒有錯其實秘書長確實是都有詳讀每個委員所提出來的法案"},{"start":10990.498,"end":10991.699,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":11003.042,"end":11017.77,"text":"關西人擬具擴大到公費助理、代替立法委員處理事務者以及包含跟立委共同生活的其他的非直系親屬的家屬等等其實它的擬具擴全範圍非常之廣、非常之大但這個部分會涉及到未來這些關西人他都受到利益衝突法的規範以及可能"},{"start":11029.095,"end":11046.526,"text":"還有相關的行為行動各方面的約束所以這樣子的一個條文才是真正典型民進黨在國會改革上面的擴權條文另外還有一個部分就是在賴委員這裡所提出來的立法委員行為法的第十條他特別針對本人及關係人前往中國"},{"start":11055.422,"end":11075.149,"text":"我把那個條文念一下好了在這個他所提出來的修法第十條的規定就曾經參加立法院命令會議的立法委員其本人及其關係人於任期中或聘過關係程序期間前往中國及港澳地區應向立法院報備並且於網站公開請問秘書長這裡的中國是指哪裡"},{"start":11081.633,"end":11085.939,"text":"這一個應該是大陸地區啦,但是他的法條是寫中國啦,所以我也報告了說特別..."},{"start":11098.541,"end":11100.944,"text":"我必須要講透過修法草案去這個"},{"start":11114.264,"end":11117.065,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文擬具"},{"start":11134.951,"end":11155.665,"text":"這邊應該是指的是大陸地區我不反對要將這個祕密會議參加祕密會議的立法委員那未來對於他的行為做比較高的這個約束可是在這裡的法條上面這樣的一個用語基本上是這個違反我們現在中華民國憲法以及兩岸園區觀以及兩岸人民關係條例裡面的相關規範是"},{"start":11162.098,"end":11182.994,"text":"這個非常不適當的這樣子的一個修法同時大家要知道我剛剛所唸那個條文裡面本人及其關係人只要未來前往大陸地區及港澳地區所有的行為都必須要向立法院報備還有要在網站上面公開我非常支持秘書長在您的報告裡面所講的這個基本上已經有嚴重的侵害到這個立法委員以及關係人這麼廣大的這個"},{"start":11191.661,"end":11203.941,"text":"關心人的行動自由以及個人資訊隱私權等等這些的問題所以我們就知道相較起來國民黨的國會改革法案我們基本上是要樹立"},{"start":11206.072,"end":11232.977,"text":"全責相符．要落實全責相符以及需要這是捍衛我們自己立法院的質詢權利我們要強化立法院的核心的職權而不是像這個民進黨委員這裡所提出來的國會改革版本那麼他基本上是打擊範圍更大而且把一些基本上並不是那麼重要跟本案無相關的一些當事人全部都要納入到這個"},{"start":11234.597,"end":11235.478,"text":"條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":11250.287,"end":11270.223,"text":"在這次大法官針對死刑釋憲的案件的處理上面我蠻遺憾的立法院對於這樣的一個死刑的釋憲沒有提出立法院的立場從權力分立的角度來看"},{"start":11271.328,"end":11284.143,"text":"立法院應該要捍衛或者是至少要去闡明立法權的職權範圍在哪裡我們立法權的核心職權在哪裡跟司法權跟釋憲權中間的這個界限"},{"start":11289.228,"end":11306.598,"text":"案,則不代表全體立法委員的立法職權去向憲法法院說明立法權的核心價值以及要維護我們立法權的重要性,只有本黨團"},{"start":11307.819,"end":11326.224,"text":"案,我們有提出法庭之友的意見,那麼向憲法法院來表達我們對於捍衛維護立法的核心價值來做說明。那就這個部分我也希望未來只要是司法院在審理相關的法律的這個"},{"start":11328.264,"end":11338.955,"text":"是否合憲的解釋的時候,我希望我們的立法院都能夠勇於認識,積極地去表達我們立法委員的意見。謝謝。"},{"start":11360.058,"end":11360.798,"text":"民進黨版的版本明明是強化自我約束"},{"start":11386.066,"end":11402.116,"text":"強化私有約束就是我們對二清等公費助理的規範希望大家能夠相關更公開透明私有約束這怎麼會是擴權呢這是一個立委知道自己的權力很大利益迴避等等應該要強化"},{"start":11404.358,"end":11428.14,"text":"更有趣的事情是說可能歐委員是新立委對我們已經修過的法律並不熟悉新修過的公職員利益迴避了相關的法規第三條的文字民進黨是參考這個文字希望能夠在我們立法委員的行為法中的第二條跟第二條之一能夠update"},{"start":11429.201,"end":11448.478,"text":"所以我想這個翁委員可能對法律要不然就是有專業特別的見解要不然就是沒有update我們最新的法規啦那我想借這機會說明一下那再回來我想針對我自己的提案跟我們民進黨納入的性別平等法案做一些說明那首先呢我很高興剛剛"},{"start":11450.059,"end":11470.545,"text":"民眾黨總召黃國昌表示:「老實講,我個人是贊成性別平等的。性騷也好,性侵害也好,性歧視也好,都放進來沒問題。但我的問題是立法技術的問題,然後後面講了一串其他行為放不放。"},{"start":11470.905,"end":11471.365,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":11493.2,"end":11494.141,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":11511.075,"end":11524.786,"text":"美國、英國、法國都很明確有相關的規定那其他國家他們有立出來我跟大家分享一下2017年美國的眾議院那因為蜜兔事件爆發他們還嚴格規範新會期的前90天從議員到職員到國會助理"},{"start":11531.411,"end":11545.986,"text":"都必須要接受反性騷、反歧視的培訓而且要求國會議員的辦公室都要張貼相關的規定美國眾議院倫理委員會得主動或依申訴調查之類"},{"start":11546.627,"end":11549.548,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法"},{"start":11576.377,"end":11590.935,"text":"都必須要在議會裏面制定相關的規範。」那這個部分就是我們可以看到這麼多的民主國家都有這個部分那台灣呢其實我們在國會的女性比例的部分早就超過40%"},{"start":11592.677,"end":11607.995,"text":"那剛剛有提通過相關國會性少規範的美國其實跟英國跟法國都遠低於國會的女性比例的40%台灣的女性議員在2023年的排名是全球25名"},{"start":11609.096,"end":11627.91,"text":"美國66名英國48名法國33名所以其實我們在性別平等這個部分亞洲第一名可是我們在國會的性別平等法案的進度遠輸於這些在性別平等在國會女性參政比低於我們的國家所以呢"},{"start":11628.803,"end":11643.193,"text":"最後我還有一點時間也跟大家分享一下立法院到底需不需要這個性騷性別平等的國會改革我認為非常需要為什麼因為根據我們立法院我自己也是我們性別平等委員會的委員2020年3月公佈的"},{"start":11647.776,"end":11652.278,"text":"針對國會助理的匿名性騷擾調查問卷有520個國會助理匿名貼問卷其中有13個人說他本人被性騷擾17個人現場目睹過性騷擾"},{"start":11663.804,"end":11684.177,"text":"兩百零九人就是有四成的人受訪的時候匿名調查的時候認為立法院性騷擾很嚴重所以我想這個部分他們直指的很多都是立委本人的性騷我想今天能夠說出來的人真的非常非常的少所以這個真的是立法院國會改革請國民黨"},{"start":11685.898,"end":11710.848,"text":"民進黨都一起支持那也請國民黨的委員剛剛民進黨總召黃國昌已經說他個人支持希望是黨團支持國民黨的委員也不要因為你們自己發生過有性騷的立委法院認定或者是總召是嫌疑犯那就不敢表達意見謝謝謝謝范委員那因為接下來輪到本席諮詢我先休息一分鐘我跟代理主席討論一下"},{"start":11782.517,"end":11786.521,"text":"好那現在有請眾嘉賓交委詢答主席因為待會會超過時間要不要先處理一下會議時間好那今天主席就宣布今天的上午就會議到眾嘉賓委員質詢完我們先中午稍事休息下午兩點繼續開會謝謝"},{"start":11810.544,"end":11830.895,"text":"主席、在堂委員先進、列席政務機關市長、官員會長、觀眾夥伴、媒體記者女士先生在本席就今天的討論法案進行發言之前我先做一個說明因為身為會議的主席輪值召委我們經常遇到散會的情況在這裡借此跟委員會也做個說明一般根據立法院的議事規則第25條、26條、27條、25條"},{"start":11835.598,"end":11855.992,"text":"主席可以決定休息的時間在討論進行的過程當中隨時可以宣告。但是二十六條一案一閉如果今天議案已經討論完畢了那當然就是自然散會或者說散會時間已屆五點半已經到了那也自然散會除非有種情況散會時間已到但是討論還想繼續進行那麼就會有提出一個延長時間根據二十七條提出一個動議延長開會時間"},{"start":11864.238,"end":11884.041,"text":"但是呢有可能雖然散會時間還沒到議案也還沒討論完畢但是在場的多數不想要討論他就會根據26條第二項提出一個散會動議散會動議一經提出不需討論直接表決這也說明了在上週四為什麼本席輪值召委的時候明明在場的多數委員他們想要散會"},{"start":11893.803,"end":11913.911,"text":"但是他們卻在2點39分提交散會動議的同時本席宣告休息的時候他們不願意離開他們在現場等待的目的不是為了要開會是為了要散會他們在現場等會要表決的目的是不讓別人繼續開會討論這一點作為一個會議的主席我必須說明當本席在上週四下午5點25分"},{"start":11924.045,"end":11952.51,"text":"上會時間將屆滿的時候那時候在場的民進黨委員提出一個延長時間至當日晚上12點讓大家想開會想討論的充分討論但是無奈根據會議規則議事規則我們必須先處理當時多數的國民黨所提出來的上會動議於是國民黨的多數委員終於從下午的2點40分等到他們到5點半其實齁"},{"start":11953.59,"end":11969.413,"text":"五點半時間到了他們不用提散會動議也散會了啦再三的證明他們敢在時間屆滿前提出散會動議就是不要讓我們討論議案就這樣而已那很可惜的呢在場的委員目前國民黨在場委員之外我們謝委員謝謝捧場啦那我繼續來講一下因為為什麼需要討論本來照說今天是尋答我應該請周秘書長來就尋答但是我自己底下呢我就之前的幾位委員的發言我們來進行討論下一頁"},{"start":11982.323,"end":12004.244,"text":"剛剛有黃國昌委員提出了為什麼我們不去處理他所提到的幾個問題我們先看這次在我們委員會當中有立法委員行為法有提出修正草案有立法院執權刑事法有各黨提出草案台灣民眾黨只有提出執權刑事法的草案他並沒有去修立法委員行為法"},{"start":12004.784,"end":12013.989,"text":"立法院行為法主要是民進黨委員提出來的。這裡面從第一章到第七章對於委員個人的行為規範講得很清楚。至於職權行事法講的是立法院如何行使職權。接下來我們往下看。那麼剛剛黃委員說到了他說收錢、喬事、關說司法、關說假事等等等。"},{"start":12027.197,"end":12040.73,"text":"這些在立法委員行為法第四章遊說及政治捐獻很清楚啊16條啊要遵守遊說法規定啊18條啊要遵守政治宣言的規定啊條文都有寫如果台灣民眾黨的委員認為不夠規範不夠嚴格請提出立法委員行法修法"},{"start":12046.294,"end":12059.882,"text":"不要對著民進黨提出的立法委員行為法提出的說沒有修到我們看看立法委員我們范委員提出什麼意見我們往下看立法院行為法當中第七條應該共同維護會議秩序這是倫理規範意識規則對秘密會議有所規範我們來看一下目前第七條當中的行為規範一款到第十款"},{"start":12068.928,"end":12095.61,"text":"都是立法委員個人問政在委員會裏面在公共場所裏面都應該要遵守的但是這裏面在我們之前范雲委員所提出的性騷擾就是在議場進行議事討論的時候所發生的難道不需要在這個倫理規範當中加以討論嗎好所以呢現行法不是完全無規範我們修法就是按現行的框架走也請民臺灣民眾黨包括黃總召要留守瞭解往下看"},{"start":12096.604,"end":12101.846,"text":"接下來我們來看今天的我們國會改革,有請周秘書長。秘書長請。好秘書長,我們往下看齁。請問一下,來。也請保護司的我們的處長是吧,專門委員,張專門委員。嘿,張官委。這個就是您的職權範圍內,請本瑜之前做回答。"},{"start":12121.617,"end":12142.784,"text":"請告訴我們周秘書長如果有某A委員在議事過程中推擠僱用腹部頂住B委員的背部事後又表示我又不是餓死鬼用肚子又不會懷孕說明我性騷擾請問這個夠不夠成性騷擾請說明我們性騷擾是有定義啦好有定義那這個有沒有接近性騷擾的定義需要再判斷一下"},{"start":12146.687,"end":12152.108,"text":"案例二 有C立委跟記者下班後聚餐,然後突然對記者抱頭強吻。如果這種情況發生,算不算新騷?算不算?"},{"start":12171.735,"end":12201.107,"text":"因為我沒有具名喔假設狀況算不算我們性騷擾法是規定如果不及抗拒而有這些不及抗拒好謝謝來來秘書長謝謝請回秘書長下一頁如果案例一案例二適用哪個法律適用性別平等工作法還是適用性騷擾防治法你判斷一下我特別請專門委員回去就要判斷看你了解應該應該是照性騷擾防治法來處理吧為什麼不適用性別平等工作法"},{"start":12203.41,"end":12225.09,"text":"因為立法委員不是立法院僱用的員工啊性別平等工作法只保障工作職場上受僱者軍公教人員不包含立法委員所以他只能用性騷擾防治法由主管機關臺北市政府就位於臺北市轄區所在的立法院內的性騷擾行為進行防治是不是這樣"},{"start":12225.931,"end":12255.405,"text":"因為方委員在姓蕾平等的裡面有特別希望把立法委員也歸換在內。好,所以我們就是今天提案嘛。立法院內的申訴處處受限,立法委員成為加害人的時候,很難透過現有的程序處理。難道立法委員不需要自律嗎?所以我們定在立法委員行為法下一頁。好,這裡面就是知道第一款到第十款,沒有一條是有爆發性騷擾的行為。所以民進黨,如果我們加入性騷擾的一個倫理規範,你支不支持?"},{"start":12256.5,"end":12278.068,"text":"我不反對。好,不反對喔。你是不反對而已啦。那相對的不像章委員那麼的一個支持。好,往下一頁。好。案例三。泄露秘密會的內容責任有某個第一立委在院內的秘密會拒簽戒協書涉嫌為謀利而泄露軍事秘密給境外的軍火商。請問你認為第一立委的行為可能構成什麼犯罪?你能回答嗎?很困難。好,往下一頁。"},{"start":12286.553,"end":12315.658,"text":"其實刑法第109條第1項、第2項洩漏或交付關於中華民國國防因秘密之文書等等這要處一年以上、七年以下如果洩漏給外國或其派遣之人三年以上、十年以下國家機密保護法第三十二條第1項、第2項洩漏或交付核定的國家機密一年以上、七年以下交付前項的話到大陸地區香港、澳門、境外敵對勢力三年以上、十年以下民主黨你覺得有沒有很嚴重?是不是很嚴重的一個罪行?"},{"start":12318.122,"end":12345.91,"text":"我問你嚴不嚴重?這個嚴不嚴重?三年以上十年以下嚴不嚴重?當然在一般來講三年以上的罪行都很嚴重好往下一頁所以案例是洩漏秘密會的內容的責任假如這個第一立委他並沒有當場洩漏半年後他要到北京參加交流專訪要不要申請許可?現行法要不要申請許可?現行法沒有規範現行法沒有規範來我告訴你要的往下一頁看"},{"start":12347.171,"end":12371.648,"text":"兩案條例第九條、第三項、第四項、檢認實質等要內政務許可。政務人員、縣市省還有涉及國安機密人員要經過內政務國安會、法務部、陸委會的審查會許可。請問,立法委員有沒有這個規範範圍內?有沒有規範範圍內?立法院立法委員有沒有規範範圍內?有沒有?立法院有沒有人會涉及國安機密?"},{"start":12374.022,"end":12395.918,"text":"有沒有可能涉及國安機密?在立法院裡面有沒有任何人員有可能涉及國安機密?我是問你嘛,有沒有可能立法院涉及國安機密?如果你說沒有,我問隔壁的外國委員會、外交官委員會,他每次看秘密會是開什麼意思的?有沒有?立法院有沒有涉及國家機密?很困難回答嗎?就是有嘛!"},{"start":12397.732,"end":12417.927,"text":"請問你立法院過去有涉及國家機密的人員,你有根據兩岸條例,立法院有去向這些單位進行報告或許可嗎?有沒有?你認為立法院要不要?有沒有限縮我們立法院之權?有沒有侵害我們憲政機關的權利?你可能認為有或沒有,很簡單,不好回答嗎?"},{"start":12421.871,"end":12443.065,"text":"這不是委員之間的行為,這是立法院職權行使涉及到國防機密問題。你身為秘書長,你不曉得要不要適用這個第九條,往下看。錄委會副主委來本席召集的公聽會的時候,他說,監察院也都有向錄委會提報管制人員名單,只要有公文列為機密以上的接觸人員,都要納入範圍。"},{"start":12445.984,"end":12469.852,"text":"民主黨監察院都有喔!監察院現在有憲法所賦予的調查權接觸到國防機密接觸到國家機密他會列什麼管制人員立法院有沒有還在問我告訴你啦監察院目前根據兩條條例提報的26人政務人員16人就包括監察委員依國家機密保護法的有44人民主黨"},{"start":12473.137,"end":12485.598,"text":"你身為立法院秘書長,你難道認為同樣的是縣政機關監察院要受兩岸條例第九條的規範?你立法院到目前有沒有?是不是0個?有沒有報過?"},{"start":12486.873,"end":12507.874,"text":"說有沒有報告?所以請你回去查回來再跟朋友們報告到底立法院從古到今第九條開始以來有沒有報告好所以民意代表應受到公開的檢驗我們立法院的議事規則還有立法院的行為法應該修法拒簽保密協議不得參加秘密會議秘密委員員附中應該報備跟公開往下一頁"},{"start":12511.497,"end":12514.285,"text":"所以今天我們的結論就很簡單剛剛有委員提到當然"},{"start":12519.298,"end":12540.428,"text":"以本席的立場我會寫中國那以我們兩岸條例他會寫大陸地區、港澳地區我們在修法的時候大家可以表達為什麼我一直希望在場的國民黨委員等到下午恢復開會的時候請留下來一起討論把各黨的版本當作差異說清楚講明白不要躲在三位動議後面"},{"start":12541.748,"end":12557.561,"text":"憑著人數多數優勢一來就要散會我們徹底誠懇的希望下午兩點重新開會的時候在下午五點半會議時間未屆滿前今天的討論事項未一避前請在場的委員想討論的"},{"start":12558.502,"end":12572.409,"text":"不要提出散會動議本席剛才已經示範過了議事規則252627除非是議案還沒結束前開會時間還沒屆滿前你不想討論請自行離開不要提散會動議在這裡再次作上宣告謝謝謝謝中交委的諮詢也請秘書長請回"},{"start":12581.425,"end":12604.378,"text":"好,所有登記法院委員均已發言完畢,巡查結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關的資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會。現在我們上午那個委員傅坤祺、吳宗憲所提書面質詢均列入記錄刊登公報,並請相關機關以書面答覆。上午會議進行到此,下午兩點繼續開會,現在休息。"},{"start":19482.185,"end":19509.134,"text":"好繼續開會我們進行討論事項那請議事人員就討論事項各案的提案條文一併宣讀宣讀時間大約35分鐘那如有修正動議請一併宣讀宣讀後即進行討論請宣讀討論事項一立法院組織法部分條文修正草案委員賴瑞隆等提案第三條處第一項第二具修正為由立法委員以記名投票分別互選產生其餘未修正"},{"start":19510.41,"end":19537.763,"text":"第五條除第四項首具前增訂參加秘密會議之立法委員、列席人員及本院員工等均應竊竭保密協議並禁止攜帶任何通訊產品進入拒絕竊竊者不得參加秘密會議其餘未修正民進黨黨團提案第十四條除第二項末具後增訂並兼任本院資通安全長推動及監督院內資通安全相關事務其餘未修正"},{"start":19539.264,"end":19565.767,"text":"第十五條除增定第七款為七資通安全處令第八款至第十二款由原第七款至第十一款條文遞移其餘未修正。第十九條之二資通安全處長禮下列事項一關於議事資通安全之整體規劃系統分析設計建置及維護事項二關於委員服務資通安全之整體規劃系統分析設計建置及維護事項"},{"start":19567.108,"end":19586.111,"text":"三）關於行政、資通安全之整體規劃系統分析、設計建置及維護事項。四）關於資通安全之規劃與執行事項。五）其他有關資通安全事項。第二四條除將條文中處長六人修正為七人、副處長六人修正為七人"},{"start":19587.645,"end":19595.271,"text":"秘書11人修正為12人,編審11人修正為12人,科長31人至38人修正為31人至42人,專員28人至37人修正為28人至41人,科員52人至71人修正為52人至75人,其餘未修正。"},{"start":19612.216,"end":19632.712,"text":"第28條除第一項默劇修正為得聘用教育人員任用資格之教授、副教授、助理教授、講師、資格者其餘未修正委員賴瑞隆等提案第32條第一項至第三項未修正申訂第四項立法委員及各黨團之公費助理"},{"start":19633.713,"end":19644.825,"text":"應予以法制化其相關資格條件及待遇福利等得比照本院約聘僱人員由立法院會商行政院考試院定之,自中華民國某年某院某日施行。"},{"start":19646.892,"end":19670.571,"text":"委員高金素梅等提案第32條、第一項至第三項未修正、增訂第四項立法院因編列預算補助立法委員應選區服務員遼闊、地理環境、交通狀況、氣候條件等因素而產生之交通住宿等不便費用,其實施辦法標準及其他應遵行之事項由立法院另定之。"},{"start":19672.932,"end":19692.513,"text":"委員高金素梅等提案第三十三條除第二項第四具中四人以上修正為三人以上另增訂第三項每屆具原住民身份之立法委員得依其意願由該屆具原住民身份之立法委員依前項規定組成政團不受第一項立法委員依其所屬政黨參加黨團之限制"},{"start":19694.955,"end":19720.613,"text":"若為全國部分區及僑居國外國民選出者不應組成黨團上司黨籍不適用公職人員選舉罷免法第73條第二項之規定令第四項至第八項有緣第三項至第七項條文第一並將第四項具首前項修正為第二項其餘未修正民進黨黨團提案第三十三條之三"},{"start":19722.813,"end":19750.572,"text":"立法院為有效發揮議事運作及提升國會功能應及早規劃國會擴建簽建案。二）立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案。委員賴瑞隆等提案第二條本法所稱立法委員關係人系指下列人員一、立法委員之配偶或共同生活之家屬二、立法委員之二親等以內親屬三、立法委員或其配偶"},{"start":19751.966,"end":19778.265,"text":"信託財產之受託人、四﹐立法委員之公費助理及其他受其指揮監督之助理、五﹐第一款之第四款所列人員擔任負責人、董事、監察人、經理人、執行業務之股東或顧問之營利事業或尤其擔任理監事之法人團體、六﹐第一款之第四款所列人員之配偶及未成年子女、七﹐其他代理立法委員處理事務者、"},{"start":19781.584,"end":19793.016,"text":"第二條之一本法所稱利益系指立法院行使職權不當增加其本人或其關係人包括財產上及非財產上之利益之價值"},{"start":19794.752,"end":19819.306,"text":"財產上利益如下﹐一、動產、不動產﹐二、現金存款、外幣、有價證券﹐三﹐債券或其他財產上權利﹐四﹐其他具有經濟價值或得以金錢交易取得之利益﹐非財產上利益﹐包括有利立法委員或其關係人與政府機關公立學校、公營事業機關之任用、升遷、調動及其他人事措施。"},{"start":19820.367,"end":19834.325,"text":"委員范雲等提案第七條,第一項未修正,暫定第二項,立法委員不得有性騷擾或性別歧視之言、詞或行為。第三項由委員第二項條文第一並將手具中前項修正為第一項。"},{"start":19835.846,"end":19853.298,"text":"徵定第四項違反第二項者主席德交紀律委員會並由紀律委員會邀請具性騷擾事件調查專業素養與性別意識之專家學者進行調查做成調查報告及處理建議後役處其餘未修正。"},{"start":19854.861,"end":19882.511,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第七條之一立法委員不得有性騷擾或性別歧視之言詞或行為違反前項規定者由立法院紀律委員會邀請具性別平權專業之學者專家進行調查做成調查報告及處理之建議後提包院會議處委員賴瑞隆等提案第十條除第一項莫具後增訂參加祕密會議之立法委員列席人員及本院員"},{"start":19883.746,"end":19895.542,"text":"以及本院員工等均因竊竭保密協議並禁止攜帶任何通訊產品進入,拒絕竊竊者不得參加秘密會議,另增訂第二項及第三項。"},{"start":19897.321,"end":19922.392,"text":"曾參加立法院秘密會議之立法委員其本人及其關係人於任期中或聘僱關係程序期間前往中國及港澳地區應向立法院報備並於網站公開其報備方法由立法院定之違反前二項規定紀律委員會應立即調查必要時提報用會與予停權並移送司法機關調查其餘未修正。"},{"start":19924.195,"end":19933.364,"text":"第11條立法委員及其公費助理其他受其監督指揮監督之助理不得兼任公務機關、公營事業機構及其轉投資事業機構之職務"},{"start":19940.407,"end":19961.786,"text":"例示一條之一,立法委員兼任政府捐助成立之裁判法人公立或私立學校或其他非以盈利為目的之事業機關或團體之職位者應於宣誓就職後三個月內申報之並應隨時更新申報,前項所定事項之受理申報機關為立法院紀律委員會"},{"start":19964.11,"end":19982.53,"text":"第十三條第一項未修正增定第二項立法委員於各會期報到期間未完成報到者應停發其稅費公費至其完成報到後使得發放報到後至稅費公費。第十六條除將墨具中財產上等文字刪除外其餘未修正"},{"start":19984.724,"end":20007.909,"text":"第十九條刪除。第20條立法委員行使職權所牽涉或辦理之事務應其作為直接或間接,使本人或其關係人或取利益者應行迴避。第26條第一項未修正。第二項修正為紀律委員會委員對關係其個人本身配偶與"},{"start":20008.969,"end":20030.741,"text":"其有共同生活之家屬關係之人或其二等親內親屬之懲戒案應自行迴避,如未自行迴避其所行使之表決全部與計算並不計入出席人數。民進黨黨團提案第30條除第一項增訂後段"},{"start":20032.256,"end":20056.147,"text":"其有涉及刑事責任者提報院會移送該管檢查機關依法辦理其餘未修正委員賴瑞隆等提案第31條第一項未修正增訂第二項本法中華民國某年某院某日修正之條文自中華民國某年某院某日起施行。三（立法院議事規則部分條文修正草案委員賴瑞隆等提案第九條"},{"start":20057.898,"end":20085.114,"text":"除第一項倒數第三具修正為於下午一時至二時處理之其餘未修正第二十二條第一項未修正原第二項及第三項條文刪除第二項由原第四項條文遞移並將首具修正為前項會議開會時間已屆上午九時其餘未修正民進黨黨團提案第47條除第一項首具修正為本院與院會委員會及黨團協商舉行祕密會議時"},{"start":20088.834,"end":20114.973,"text":"第二項維修正、增訂第三項及第四項立法委員列席人員及會場員工禁止攜帶任何可供操錄、影印、擴音、錄音、攝影、錄影、傳輸及通訊之器材並應簽具保密切結書、拒絕交付相關器材或拒絕簽具保密切結書者不得入場。前項人員因身心障礙而有需求"},{"start":20115.893,"end":20135.722,"text":"經主席同意得使用相關器材為輔具。第五項由原第三項條文遞以其餘未修正。第48條第一項及第二項未修正增訂第三項。立法委員列席人員及會場員公布得以任何方式記錄或洩漏機密內容。委員賴瑞隆等提案第50條增訂第一項。"},{"start":20139.429,"end":20156.222,"text":"參加秘密會議之立法委員、列席人員及本院員工等均應竊竭保密協議並禁止攜帶任何通訊產品進入,拒絕竊竊者不得參加秘密會議。第二項及第三項由原第一項及第二項條文遞以其餘位修正。"},{"start":20157.096,"end":20180.633,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第五十二條除首具修正為立法委員違反本規則第48條第三項或第五十條第一項之規定者令默據後增訂其涉及刑事責任者並移送該管檢察機關依法辦理其餘未修正四（立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":20181.818,"end":20201.729,"text":"委員呂玉玲等提案第十五條之一除第一項第三句中德與修正為應與令增訂第二項及第三項總統應與每年二月一日以前將該年國家大政方針應送全體立法委員並於二月底向立法院提出國情報告"},{"start":20202.489,"end":20226.683,"text":"新任總統應於就職兩週內向立法院提出國家大政方針並於一個月內向立法院提出國情報告其餘未修正。委員鄭天才等提案第15條之二除將第一項條文中就國家安全大政方針等文字刪除外其餘未修正。委員鄭天才等提案第15條之四"},{"start":20227.748,"end":20254.44,"text":"立法委員於總統國情報告完畢後得提出問題並由總統依序及時答覆。民進黨黨團提案第二十一條第一項至第三項未修正。增訂第四項。議事處依第一項登記名單擬定質詢順序及時間。立法委員依表定時間進行質詢。表定時間已屆經暢明三次不在場者。視同放棄質詢。"},{"start":20257.372,"end":20272.631,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案第25條除第三項默具修正為主席或諮詢委員得與制止其餘未修正委員羅志強等提案第25條除第一項增訂默具且不得反諮詢"},{"start":20274.56,"end":20302.02,"text":"令第三項修正為被質詢人違反第一項與第二項規定者主席得與制止經制止無效者得令其離開會場其餘未修正。委員蕾玉玲等提案第28條之三行政院院長、各部會首長及相關出席立法院會議之政府人員與達詢實作虛偽陳述或提供不實資料者處一年以上五年以下有歧途刑。"},{"start":20302.921,"end":20318.539,"text":"第28條之四行政院院長各部會首長及相關出席立法院會議之政府人員於接獲立法院邀請出席會議時未經會議主席準價而缺席者為藐視國會處一年以下有期徒刑。"},{"start":20319.62,"end":20341.476,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第29條,築第一項首句中憲法第104條後的或字修正為頓號令第七條第二項後增訂規定二字倒數第二句條文中提出院會修正為提報院會令增訂第二項及第三項"},{"start":20342.836,"end":20369.959,"text":"除前項規定外,立法院依法律規定行使人事同意權時不經討論交付相關委員會。審查後提報院會以無記名投票表決經超過出席立法委員二分之一之同意為通過。前二項之審查應舉行公聽會並得邀集相關學者專家、公民團體及社會公正人士出席表達意見。其餘未修正委員鄭天才等提案第29條"},{"start":20371.644,"end":20387.067,"text":"除條文中第七條、第二項後增訂法院組織法第六十六條、第二項、第四項或其他法律規定令倒數第二具條文中無濟民投票修正為濟民投票其餘未修正"},{"start":20388.123,"end":20413.228,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第三十條被提名人資格之相關證明資料應由提名機關與提名室並送立法院全院委員會或相關委員會就被提名人資格及是否事任之相關事項進行審查與詢問並由立法院知請總統或函請行政院院長通知被提名人列席說明與答詢。"},{"start":20416.089,"end":20443.441,"text":"第31條同意權行使之結果由立法院資副總統或含副行政院長如被提名人未獲同意總統或行政院長應令提他人資請立法院同意。民進黨黨團提案第八章章明調查及文件調閱委員翁曉琳等提案第八章章明調查權之行使民進黨黨團提案第一節解明院會之調查權"},{"start":20444.966,"end":20469.182,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第45條立法院進院會決議得涉調查委員會就特定議案行使調查權。前項調查權之行使僅於與憲法賦予。立法院支持權有重大關聯之範圍內,使得為之。調查委員會行使調查權除得要求有關機關構就議案涉及事項提供參考資料、參考文件外。"},{"start":20470.117,"end":20487.603,"text":"必要時並得調閱議案涉及事項之文件原本或要求機關構提供其他資料或物件或以舉行調查公聽會之方式邀請機關構出席表達意見或學者專家出具專業意見。委員翁小林等提案第45條"},{"start":20488.923,"end":20506.573,"text":"立法院經院會決議得涉調查委員會或經委員會決議得涉調查專案小組,要求與特定議案有關之機關法人、人民團體及個人聽證並提供文件、資料及檔案。調查委員會由立法院各黨團依其在院會之期次比例推派委員組成。"},{"start":20508.534,"end":20526.253,"text":"調查專案小組由各委員會委員組成。調查委員會及調查專案小組由委員互選一人為召集人負責中理相關事務。調查委員會或調查專案小組於必要時得經院會之決議,向有關機關調閱前項議案涉及事項之文件原本。"},{"start":20527.783,"end":20548.76,"text":"機關法人、人民團體或個人依第四項、第五項所提供之資料文件不得遮蔽或掩飾。文件資料及檔案經核定為國家機密者適用國家機密保護法有關規定。民進黨黨團提案第45條之一,立法院行使調查權不得逾越調查目的事項與範圍。"},{"start":20551.489,"end":20579.157,"text":"並應尊重其他國家機關受憲法保障、獨立行使之職權及行政首長就特定機密決定不予公開之行政特權、裁判確定前之訴訟案件就其偵查或審判所為之處置及其卷證、立法院不得行使調查權、尚未確定之訴院事件或其他依法應獨立行使職權之機關本與職權處理中之案件一同。"},{"start":20580.217,"end":20600.34,"text":"調查委員會成立後其他依法應獨立行使職權之機關亦本於職權進行處理相關案件時,調查委員會得停止調查。民進黨黨團提案第46條,調查委員會設立及調查權之行使應於立法院"},{"start":20601.876,"end":20619.91,"text":"會期中為之、前向調查委員會之名稱、調查目的事項範圍期間、方法及成員人數、本結會規定者由院會議決之、各屆院會調查權之行使、致詞於該屆立法委員任期屆滿時終止。委員翁曉琳等提案第46條"},{"start":20622.106,"end":20642.596,"text":"調查委員會或調查專案小組之設立,均依於立法院會期中為之,但調閱文件資料及檔案之時間不在此限。調查委員會及調查專案小組於議案調查完畢並提出調查報告、調閱報告及處理意見後即行解散,或於該屆立法委員任期屆滿,自動解散。"},{"start":20645.202,"end":20661.911,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第46條之一,調查委員會之成員由各黨團依其在院會所占席次比例推派之,其成員亦得由原推派黨團變更之。調查委員會之召集委員二人由其委員會之成員互選之。"},{"start":20663.243,"end":20681.007,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第47條,受要求調閱文件或提供其他資料或物件之機關購,除依法律或其他正當理由的拒絕外,應於五日內提供之,但相關文件、資料或物件業經司法機關或監察機關纖維調取時,機關購應續名理由並提供副本。"},{"start":20685.368,"end":20706.441,"text":"若有正當理由,無法提供副本應說明理由。前項提出之期間,調查委員會得決議展言或限縮之,但決議限縮之期間不得少於三日。機關構有正當理由,得請求調查委員會發完調閱之文件或提供之資料或物件。"},{"start":20708.257,"end":20723.686,"text":"委員翁角林等提案第47條除第一項首具受要求調閱文件之機關後增訂法人、人民團體或個人令第三具但書中相關資料修正為相關文件資料檔案"},{"start":20724.966,"end":20746.039,"text":"令第二項修正為前項調閱文件資料及檔案機關法人及人民團體應指派專人宋達立法院指定場所以供查閱,其餘未修正。民進黨黨團提案第48條機關夠於調查委員會行使調查權時無正當理由不得拒絕、拖延、隱匿、不提供文件"},{"start":20747.08,"end":20755.877,"text":"資料或物件或拒絕出席調查公定會表達意見違反前項規定者提報院會決議處新台幣一萬元以上、三十萬以下罰還"},{"start":20757.999,"end":20785.447,"text":"並得按次連續處罰。」委員翁小林等提案第48條第一項未修正徵定第二項及第三項公務人員、法人、人民團體或個人有前項情形者得經立法院院會決議處新台幣二萬元以上、二十萬元以下罰還並得按次處罰至改正為止。前項罰還處分受處分者如有不符得於處分書送達之次日起二個月內向立法院所在地之行政法院提起行政訴訟。"},{"start":20786.627,"end":20804.319,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第49條,調查委員會所需之工作人員由秘書長指派之,調查委員會於必要時得請求院長指派專業人員協助之。委員翁小林等提案第49條,除將條文中調閱均修正為調查外其餘未修正。"},{"start":20806.533,"end":20830.908,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第五十條,調查委員會所調取之文件資料或物件現由調查委員會之委員或院長指派之專業人員親自查閱之。前項查閱人員對依法應保密之文件、資料或物件不得抄錄、攝影、影印、誦讀、錄音或為其他複製行為,亦不得吸離或傳書至查閱。"},{"start":20832.269,"end":20846.045,"text":"場所外、第一項查閱人員對依法應保密之文件、資料或物件內容或其存在附有保密之異物、其離職後與解密前之期間內一同。」委員翁小林等提案第五十條。"},{"start":20846.926,"end":20871.934,"text":"依本法所調取之文件、資料及檔案,現由各該調查委員會、調查專案小組或院長指派之專業人員親自查閱之。前項查閱人員對機密文件、資料及檔案不得抄錄、攝影、影印、誦讀、錄音或為其他複製行為亦不得稀釐查閱場所。委員翁小林等提案第50條之一"},{"start":20874.344,"end":20895.874,"text":"調查委員會或調查專案小組依第45條第四項要求與特定議案有關之機關法人人民團體及個人聽證時應於開會日15日前依行政程序法第55條所定應載之事項以書面送達應邀聽證人員應邀聽證人員非有正當理由不得拒絕出席"},{"start":20897.935,"end":20916.967,"text":"聽證應公開舉行,但涉及國防、外交或其他依法令應保密事項者,以秘密會議方式進行。第五十條之二,經書面通知之機關、法人、人民團體及個人應於聽證期日前以書面提交陳述意見。聽證後,聽證人員仍有補充意見之。"},{"start":20919.774,"end":20936.813,"text":"補充意見必要者應於聽證會後三日內以書面提出。且二向之書面意見及資料任由保密必要者聽證人員應於提出時序明須保密之理由並製作可公開之文件摘要送交立法院。"},{"start":20938.666,"end":20965.557,"text":"第五十條之三聽證應做成聽證記錄聽證記錄當場製作完成者由陳述人發問人簽名或蓋章為當場製作完成者由主持人指定日期場所供陳述人或發問人閱覽並由其簽名或蓋章前二項情形陳述人或發問人拒絕簽名蓋章或位於指定日期場所閱覽者應記名其事由陳述人或發問人對聽證記錄之記載有異議者"},{"start":20968.998,"end":20984.894,"text":"則及時提出主持人任依依有理由者應予更正或補充,無理由者應盡明其意義。第五十條之四,並邀到立法院聽證人員應據實答覆,不得拒絕陳述,陳述不完全或為虛偽陳述。"},{"start":20986.716,"end":21008.533,"text":"但就特定問題之答復如有刑事訴訟法所定得拒絕贈言之事由並當場示明者不在此限。第五十條之五政府機關或公務人員違反第五十條之一或第五十條之四規定者得經立法院院會決議將其移送監察院依法提出糾正糾舉或彈劾。"},{"start":21010.214,"end":21032.631,"text":"第五十條之六公務人員、法人、人民團體或個人違反第五十條之一或第五十條之四規定者得經立法院院會決議處新台幣二萬元以上、二十萬元以下之罰還。前項罰還處分受處分者如有不符得於處分送達之四日起二個月內向立法院所在地之行政法院提起行政訴訟。"},{"start":21033.812,"end":21037.898,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第51條,調查委員會調查終結後應將調查內容經過及決議等相關事項做成調查報告提報院會。調查委員會得提出其中報告。"},{"start":21050.049,"end":21054.633,"text":"條文修正草案．一．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．一．立法院組織法部分條文修正草"},{"start":21066.124,"end":21070.469,"text":"委員翁美玲等提案第51條,調查委員會或調查專案小組應與文件調閱處理及聽證程序終結後30日內分項用會或委員會提出調閱、調查報告書及處理意見作為處理該特定議案之依據。"},{"start":21082.603,"end":21103.863,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第52條,調查委員會任由涉及國家安全、外交、國防機密或其他依法令應秘密事項者以秘密會議行之。調查報告未公佈前,其調查委員會之成員、專業人員、工作人員、保管人員、幕僚人員或其他相關人員,經負有保密之義務。"},{"start":21104.904,"end":21124.436,"text":"除公開會議中已公開者外,不得對文件、資料或物件內容或調查情形予以揭露、涉及國家安全、外交或國防機密或其他依法令應祕密事項者於調查報告或調查其中報告提出後,仍應依相關法令規定保密。"},{"start":21125.556,"end":21140.401,"text":"並依秘密會議之決議處理之,前向保密義務於調查委員會成員、專業人員、工作人員、保管人員、幕僚人員或其他相關人員離職後解密前至期間內一同。」委員翁曉琳等提案第52條。"},{"start":21142.336,"end":21166.355,"text":"調查、調閱報告書及處理意見未提出前其調查人員、工作人員、專業人員、保管人員負有保密之義務不得對調查、調閱內容或處理情形與揭露但涉及外交、國防或其他依法令應秘密事項者於調查、調閱報告及處理意見提出後仍應依相關法令規定保密並依秘密會議處理之"},{"start":21171.297,"end":21197.332,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第53條。調查委員會未提出調查報告前,院會對調查所設之議案不得為最後之決議,但已於院會議決之實現時不再實現。委員翁曉琳等提案第53條。除第一項手續修正為調查委員會或調查專案小組未提出調查調閱報告書及處理意見前,第二項手續修正為前項調查專案小組之調查報告"},{"start":21201.095,"end":21212.167,"text":"調閱報告書及處理意見,其餘未修正。民進黨黨團提案第53條之一,調查報告或其中報告之內容不受司法審查、監察"},{"start":21215.949,"end":21231.4,"text":"檢查機關、法院、書院或其他行政就緝之先行程序審議機關對案件之偵查、審判或審議不受調查報告或其中報告之拘束。第五十三條之二,調查委員會之會議"},{"start":21233.325,"end":21260.858,"text":"本法未規定者準用立法院組織法、立法院各委員會組織法、立法委員行為法及立法院議事規則相關之規定。第五十三條之三,調查委員會之成員、專業人員、工作人員、保管人員、幕僚人員或其他相關人員其利益迴避事項準用立法委員行為法及公職人員利益衝突迴避法之規定。第二節解明委員會之文件調閱權"},{"start":21263.482,"end":21283.695,"text":"第五十三條之四各委員會為審查院會交付之議案經委員會決議得涉調閱專案小組,要求有關機關構就特定議案涉及事項提供參考資料。調閱專案小組於必要時得向有關機關構調閱前項議案涉及事項之文件原本。第五十三條之五"},{"start":21284.555,"end":21302.924,"text":"條約專案小組織設立及條約文件權之行使應於立法院會期中為之。前項條約專案小組織名稱、條約目的、事項範圍、期間、方法及成員人數本結尾規定者由委員會議決之。各委員會文件條約權之行使致詞於該會期屆滿時終止。第53條之六"},{"start":21308.445,"end":21316.237,"text":"條約專案小組織成員由該委員會委員擔任之。條約專案小組織召集委員二人由該委員會召集委員擔任之。"},{"start":21318.248,"end":21345.882,"text":"條約專案小組所需之工作人員由立法院各委員會或主辦委員會指派之。條約專案小組於必要時得請求院長指派專業人員協助之。第五十三條之七機關構於條約專案小組行使文件條約權時無正當理由不得拒絕拖延或隱匿不提供文件違反前項規定者提報院會決議處心台幣一萬元以上三十萬元以下罰還"},{"start":21347.203,"end":21369.013,"text":"並得按次連續處罰。第五十三條之八,調閱專案小組行使文件調閱權時,準用第四十五條、第二項第四十五條之一、第四十七條及第五十條至第五十三條之三之規定。第七十條,第一項至第三項未修正。第四項修正為"},{"start":21370.294,"end":21391.807,"text":"議案進行協商使由秘書長派員支援全程錄影錄音記錄協商過程之全程記錄與協商結論均應刊登公報。增訂第五項前項協商之錄影應與國會頻道、立法院網際網路多媒體隨選視訊即時播出。第六項由原第五項條文遞移其餘未修正。"},{"start":21393.154,"end":21408.148,"text":"第七十四條之一本法第八條所定進夫二讀之一案應交付黨團協商並由提案委員或所屬黨團負責召集並適用本法第七十條至第七十四條之規定。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":21409.555,"end":21429.032,"text":"繼續宣讀修正動議部分．討論事項第一案修正動議一．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．對照民進黨黨團提案第十五條將第十五條的第十一款中南部服務中心修正為地區服務中心其餘未修正提案人委員、中家兵等宣讀完畢"},{"start":21432.21,"end":21461.69,"text":"好 那麼提案條文修正動議已宣讀完畢那現在我們進行 那麼討論事項第一案繼續審查民進黨團擬具立法院組織法部分條文修正草案等四案那因為現在呢我們專訓代表市長堂議將我們先進行大體討論那請大家表示意見 那請主席我建議就是我們是不是把大體跟主條就一併來處理好了好來 然後這樣討論更有效率"},{"start":21462.963,"end":21462.983,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":21473.425,"end":21473.565,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":21493.697,"end":21493.717,"text":"案 。"},{"start":21508.843,"end":21523.807,"text":"第三條有委員賴瑞隆等16人提案。提案內容請看。主要以記名分別互選產生院長、副院長。第三條賴瑞隆的部分"},{"start":21530.455,"end":21532.376,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院主席"},{"start":21555.336,"end":21555.797,"text":"全案送院會。"},{"start":21571.809,"end":21585.902,"text":"第五條是委員賴瑞隆等16人提案。提案的主要修正內容是在第二項,是關於秘密會議的部分。請問委員對於第五條有什麼看法?"},{"start":21588.21,"end":21610.65,"text":"跟主席跟大家說明因為這個條文民進黨團另外我們在議事規則裡面有做處置所以我是覺得這個部分就我們黨團的意見是就用我們的提案的議事規則的條文來處理所以第五條我看瑞隆委員也不在場其實是就以黨團的議事規則的條文來處理這一條其實是可以不用處理"},{"start":21611.547,"end":21639.882,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員吳委員也是我們本案的聯署委員我是這樣子有關於保密的規定賴委員本身分別在立法院組織法第五條增列第四項前段立法委員行為法提出了第十條增列第一項後段以及在立法院議事規則第五十條增訂第一項那麼因為民進黨黨團版本在議事規則有第四十條增訂第三項是我們把這個東西條文保留到議事規則的時候一起來討論好不好"},{"start":21640.862,"end":21669.669,"text":"可以齁?好,那我們先暫保留。好,我們保留到後面併案進行討論。好,那第14條呢,就是民進黨黨團的提案。那,民進黨黨團提案,請問各位委員對本案有什麼意見?來,審判會委員請。欸,這條現在我們事實上本院已經設置治安,已經有設置治安長了齁,所以我是覺得就把它法制化,所以我建議是按照提案,這個民進黨團提案通過。"},{"start":21672.168,"end":21698.4,"text":"請問在場委員對於這個省委員的意見我們本案依民進黨黨團提案來審查通過來請您是主席我想長安的詢答我也表示很清楚因為這個治安長那由我們的副首長來兼任到底副首長夠不夠專業這部分我們認為還有討論的空間所以這一條是不是我們也敬請就是保留我們到協商大家再來討論"},{"start":21699.861,"end":21728.153,"text":"那請問大家對於保留現行的在負責資安請周秘書長回答一下來請周秘書長現在因為目前已經有設資安長了那如果要把這個明定化那就由委員來做決定那現在資安長是誰現在是副秘書長兼任根本也是一樣行政院也是行政院副院長"},{"start":21730.098,"end":21738.401,"text":"指派有專業的人士來兼任我們的治安長所以現在雖然我們規定是說很多規定說副首長來擔任這個治安長我的意思是說也可以指派有"},{"start":21758.469,"end":21774.703,"text":"這個專業的人士來兼任,所以我們現在指定說就只有那個司法指定就是副秘書長來兼任,副秘書長都不懂啊,這個是很危險喔。所以我們從資訊處裡面去挑啊,或者你們不是主張說要成立資訊安全處嗎,裡面去挑啊,去選啊。"},{"start":21782.389,"end":21782.769,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":21803.183,"end":21805.227,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":21814.74,"end":21836.327,"text":"我們這個修法其實是比照立法院2018年已經修的自通安全管理法11條的規範就公務機關要設自通安全長而且就是由機關首長來指派副首長或是當人員確實有或是當人員但是回到那個資訊安全管理法為什麼當初要cue出一個副首長"},{"start":21837.807,"end":21865.356,"text":"就是因為要彰顯著那因應的數位時代資訊安全的管制是更為重要的所以希望我們的各個公務機關要把資通安全拉到一個高位的副首長來督導來主責所以這彰顯了一個機關對於資通安全的一個安全管控因為他upgrade他的這個首長擔任的這個層級更高第二個我也認為這就是一個很好的時機"},{"start":21866.536,"end":21868.178,"text":"法務各位委員幾乎各院都是由"},{"start":21882.598,"end":21883.279,"text":"條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":21898.118,"end":21916.2,"text":"重視。第二個當然有這個法制化就是會要求各個部門在派任這樣一個人員他就是要強調他的資通安全的專業現在司民委員的意思就有點反制變成說因為很怕他沒有專業所以不能由這個人來做"},{"start":21916.761,"end":21919.021,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":21945.568,"end":21951.385,"text":"這個入侵那個數字是非常匪夷所思的所以代表我們還好過去都有成功組黨組卻好"},{"start":21953.055,"end":21981.454,"text":"所以這個我一直覺得要upgrade到這個程度來在下位委員發言之前我主席做一個程序上的整理因為目前第14條跟第15條都有支通安全處跟支通安全長的這樣的一個規定那我是不是建議說這個兩條並同討論因為這個剛剛秘書長的意見是說支通安全要有專業人士來擔任為儀那過去其他行政機關都是由副總長兼任支通安全長"},{"start":21982.495,"end":22000.97,"text":"那這兩者怎麼樣兼採我是不是請大家也看到第15條第一項第7款民進黨黨團版本增列一個自通安全處那如果這兩條併同來考量是否比較隕蕩那請教各位委員表示意見那剛剛有那個羅志強委員舉手是不是我先做這樣的處理14條15條併同討論好來請羅委員"},{"start":22006.087,"end":22029.982,"text":"我覺得今天我們的周秘書長也有表示一些相關的意見那我覺得既然在場雙方的委員都有一些不同的意見那我覺得就比照我們之前的做法有意見就保留送協商那協商的時候也可以讓秘書長在這邊現場來去看看怎麼樣去做對立法院來說比較好的一個處理跟安排以上那個曾委員有表示就要表示意見"},{"start":22033.407,"end":22036.429,"text":"現在有兩個爭議,應該是林委員今天早上有提到的,到底用自動安全長的這樣一個人有沒有專業性。我先講一下目前的實際狀況,因為現在實際狀況最主要是人力不足。"},{"start":22051.698,"end":22052.939,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草"},{"start":22074.87,"end":22075.331,"text":"條文修正草案。"},{"start":22095.896,"end":22109.533,"text":"第十五條、第六、第七、第六款、第七款到底要不要把它分成兩個這個我自己個人並沒有那麼強烈的一個意見因為重點就是今天早上有跟這個處長講過的就是他最主要是需要獨立"},{"start":22110.094,"end":22110.454,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":22125.911,"end":22131.572,"text":"好,謝謝省委員的表達。我這邊齊說一個提醒因為雖然我們現在討論到14條並同15條那剛剛省委員提到15條裡面後面還有個19條之二跟第24條都是跟這個制動案源處的設置有關,包括它的編制人力是不是我請大家同意說我們就把這個議題啊增訂第19條之二跟24條也並同討論,大家同不同意?"},{"start":22148.936,"end":22174.808,"text":"因為這是涉及到制動安全處的設置的定位那如果他同意的話呢主席這邊有一個關於第15條的修正動議那因為他雖然不是直接跟制動安全處有關但是跟15條有關請大家看一下討論事項第一案的修正動議因為修正動議要先處理那這個剛好本席跟其他委員有提出就是關於修正動議的條文是針對民進黨團的提案條文的15條但是呢他是去處理第11款"},{"start":22175.908,"end":22203.589,"text":"中南部服務中心,把它修正為地區服務中心。原因在於說,未來的立法院,未來有一個簽件的計畫,是不是就一定在臺北市或在北部,因為如果確定在北部,才會變成有中南部服務中心的需求。如果不是在北部,可能在中部,可能在南部,這個服務中心可能就會變成叫北部服務中心,或者是中北部服務中心,都有可能。"},{"start":22204.289,"end":22205.89,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草"},{"start":22221.216,"end":22248.29,"text":"主席、各位委員這個是要改名稱的第七評審中心因為今天這裡有涉及到22條之一跟27條之一他的執掌跟編制目前因為你是部分條文修正案你沒有進來所以你直接要改這個條文可能是有點在從立法技術上不太妥適所以要跟委員報告一下因為有涉及到後面的兩個條文"},{"start":22249.431,"end":22271.345,"text":"我瞭解了民進黨果然是議事專家他說我們雖然第15條有草案但是針對第15條的修正動議會牽涉到其他本次修正草案當中沒有觸及到的條文因為其他的條文的名稱都是叫做地區服務中心有一個22條之一因為本次22條之一並不在我們這次27條之一"},{"start":22276.414,"end":22283.042,"text":"二十二條之一跟二十七條之一都會觸及到中南部服務中心的名稱。"},{"start":22286.96,"end":22287.48,"text":"民進黨黨團有關於自動安全處﹚"},{"start":22309.255,"end":22317.879,"text":"你不要一直搞下去嘛,我提早就要發言我就是問大家是不是一起變同討論?剛才你講,他講我換我講大家幫忙談沒有關係剛才說這幾條並願討論,第14條第15條,19條還有哪一條?24條"},{"start":22329.571,"end":22351.966,"text":"那四條。那現在你提案,你提案,你提修正案,那個,那個就,那個賣啦齁,那個不行啦齁。我是提一個看法,第15條齁,有一個資訊處齁,那有一個資訊安全處齁,雖然是這個本黨,黨版,黨版提案的齁。"},{"start":22353.743,"end":22381.936,"text":"增加一個資通安全處我只是覺得這兩個併在一起就可以比較法務部法務部有時候也是這樣而已他就沒有資金處他就資通安全處這兩個併在一起至於人員要增加我都沒有意見我講我們自己內部我看一下內部應該照理說整理六款第七款六款不要了就改為資通安全處這樣可能比較妥當"},{"start":22382.936,"end":22399.496,"text":"至於治安長的成績,剛剛沈柏洋委員也講過,他是一個通案的法定成績比較高的,當然底下也有專業人員,是不是做個修正好不好?"},{"start":22401.275,"end":22418.149,"text":"來那個科委員科總到提議就是因為我們的第七款跟第六款一個叫資訊處就是資通安全處那如果把資訊處跟資通安全處都併為同樣的一個資通安全處的話那麼在組織編制上就並沒有擴增"},{"start":22419.85,"end":22433.043,"text":"但是呢一樣會促集到19條之一齁因為19條之一是寫資訊處他的名稱叫資訊處不是自動安全處那我們在這裡改了把資訊處改成自動安全處齁後面會牽動到19條之一那麼24條的部分齁的那個編制啊"},{"start":22438.388,"end":22453.497,"text":"因為二十條編制當中其實就是比較沒有動到資訊處跟自動安全處的差別因為他是放在關等裡面的緣額去調整的沒有涉及到單位名稱那這個部分就請委員表示意見是自動安全處跟資訊處併在一起嗎來翁委員"},{"start":22456.305,"end":22459.268,"text":"但是我針對剛剛講的在15條裡面是不是要多增設資通安全處那個人認為是不需要這樣跌床架屋其實就我們現在資訊處的未來它的就是現在資訊處的業務範圍可以擴大涵蓋到"},{"start":22473.725,"end":22497.416,"text":"在19條之二裡面所要處理的自動安全處的長領事項其實就夠了那麼這樣的話其實就不需要再往下面修24條啊等等這些條文也就是說在現行的這個我們立法院組織的這個各處事裡面的資訊處就已經可以cover現在的這些事項沒有不需要再修正"},{"start":22498.576,"end":22499.017,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":22521.927,"end":22534.596,"text":"單位並沒有增加,但是原額有增加,那資訊處改為自動安全處之後,它的職長加強,那這樣是一個修正的動議,那這修正還沒正式提案之前只是一個構想,那請教大家意見。我覺得還是聽秘書長的意見為重。"},{"start":22541.4,"end":22557.538,"text":"我覺得資訊處跟資通安全處我覺得真的是疊床架屋啦那而且資訊處跟資通安全處嚴格來講資訊處才是大概念資通安全是小概念就是說資訊處他所主管的東西包含一般的資訊業務也包含資通安全"},{"start":22558.078,"end":22581.386,"text":"所以當你把這個名稱變成自動安全其實你反而讓這個資訊處它的一個職能定位會出現問題所以我倒是覺得說不需要疊床架屋啦就個人意見覺得說你資訊處就好了那至於資訊處業務要怎麼去重新的來去界定這個我覺得可以尊重我們的那個周秘書長的一個看法以上好 那個請周秘書長表示意見"},{"start":22581.92,"end":22583.101,"text":"主席賴瑞隆等"},{"start":22603.822,"end":22615.898,"text":"內部在討論的時候資訊處本身對於資通安全他在內部的一個職長的作業上他們是認為是可以加進去在比如出入規程裡面再加他們的這個職長的業務"},{"start":22619.523,"end":22619.984,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":22638.646,"end":22664.406,"text":"好,來,那請那個省委員、省委員之後主席這邊做個資訊的整理。好,那沒有問題,我就跟剛剛的意見一樣,就是說這兩個要放一起來是分開沒什麼意見,但是還是要再強調一下就是,IT跟資安是完全不同的事情,你看我看喔,所以呢,只是是因為資訊處這個名稱範圍聽起來可以很廣泛,但是其實IT跟Cyber Security還是分開啦,所以這就是為什麼要特別去討論說他要做這個自動安全相關的事項,以上。"},{"start":22666.171,"end":22690.844,"text":"那主席在那邊做個秩序的整理。那就維持民進黨的提案版本,增加一個自動安全處。在大家進一步討論之前,我大概再增加一個。請大家看一下,現在有兩個意見,有一邊的意見是主張說就把自動安全的部分併到原來的資訊處底下,那這就是維持現狀。"},{"start":22691.823,"end":22696.365,"text":"那另外一個意見是說自動安全的內容跟資訊處現有的內容不完全一樣那這裡面勢必要把19條之二放進去再幫他討論但是19條之二的方式是把自動安全處跟資訊處分開來兩個獨立各不同屬的一個單位但是如果要採取一個單位涵蓋兩項業務那誠如剛剛秘書長所回答的那麼有可能19條之二的內容就必須放到我們處務規程當中去涵蓋"},{"start":22720.453,"end":22736.682,"text":"也就是說未來資訊處的處務規程或叫自動安全處的處務規程裡面可能要把原來的資訊處的業務跟自動安全業務分別羅列表達在未來不管叫什麼名字的那個處裡面的共同單位那這樣的話十九條之二的規定叫未來會被處務規程所吸納"},{"start":22738.803,"end":22752.828,"text":"但是呢一樣的24條編制原額的擴充可能也要給予一些著徵不然的話資訊出入管道、資通安全的內容那它的原額是要增加這一點會表達在24條所以請大家可以就這個部分來加以討論。現在請吳思耀委員"},{"start":22756.004,"end":22771.987,"text":"我剛剛聆聽了一輪大家發表的意見包括秘書長的說明就我自己從一開始在草擬這個提案然後跟很多的自通安全專家的交換意見以及參著我們2018完成的資訊安全管理法的"},{"start":22772.467,"end":22791.933,"text":"法規面。」為什麼民主進步黨的版本還是端出來的版本就是資訊處之外另設一個資通安全處是因為在本質上做資訊的內容像現在我們的資訊處確實我們辦公室互動最多的是常常來換換軟體幫我們看看電腦、看看網路有沒有什麼問題"},{"start":22796.774,"end":22818.749,"text":"案件和資通安全本身的內容涵蓋,我認為在面相上就是大不同。這就是為什麼我們在資通安全管理法裡頭很清楚的資通安全為什麼要做。它除了是要去建構國家的資通安全環境之外,它更涉及了國家安全的部分。"},{"start":22820.044,"end":22844.743,"text":"所以這個在專業面向在整個業務的服務的面向我覺得是完全不同的概念所以我並不覺得這是跌床駕屋因為對我而言我是提案人在場景的過程我認為這是完全本質上不同的業務的歸類所以我是認為不管在資通系統、資通服務、資通安全、資通安全事件"},{"start":22845.403,"end":22872.93,"text":"的管理管制處理他都需要一個單一的處事來處理才不會讓我們的公務同仁就專業的分工上有困擾就工作的priority前後順序的排擠上也會產生干擾我是再一次說明我希望民主進步黨的版本獲得大家的肯認謝謝謝謝目前第四條到第24條有四個條文目前已經大家有充分表示意見請問還沒有繼續表達來請柯總召"},{"start":22875.768,"end":22895.793,"text":"我本來是為了為什麼要講兩個合在一起當然民進黨處有一些看法但是法務部也有執行官員處但是在民進黨現在的提案分開來可能變動性比較少而且比較能夠做得下去也就是說主計和審計應該分開的"},{"start":22900.274,"end":22927.205,"text":"之間是管IT、治安的管安全、不同的系統。那就照這樣的話,我們版本就其他的,變動性會很小,就省得下去,還是維持,我們提案版本。柯總召是建議維持民進黨黨的提案版本,那有省委員跟林士明委員,那林士明委員先,然後省委員?"},{"start":22929.497,"end":22950.028,"text":"我想我也聆聽各位的大見之後,其實我想大家的意見都有一個共同點,就是認為資通安全很重要。所以你現在把這個資訊處把名稱改成資通安全處,那其實跟資訊處現在目前我們立法院資訊處做的"},{"start":22951.128,"end":22954.649,"text":"案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":22975.394,"end":22983.08,"text":"委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三條及第三十二條條文修正草案案 案件,在立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件,在立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件,在立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件,在立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件,在立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件,在立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":23004.92,"end":23027.014,"text":"現在既有的資訊處,它是對自動安全這一塊,如果它能夠做得好的話,我們是不是還要去增加一個自動安全處?等於說,讓人感覺說,現在就做得好好的,為什麼要再編制增加這麼多的人員去做同樣現在就已經做得還不錯的事情,除非他們做得不好。"},{"start":23029.237,"end":23049.838,"text":"案、其他部會目前也沒有在成立自動安全處,只有調查局有而已。立法院是不是也要這樣比照調查局及成立一個自動安全處,我覺得這個也是大家要去思索的了。所以我的建議,既然大家意見不一致,那我們就保留嘛。"},{"start":23052.223,"end":23080.73,"text":"這幾個條文我們都保留,大家再來做充分的討論,協商時候再討論。你是保留派,每一條都要保留一下。不是,現在你教我已經不敢了。沒有。那再來謝委員,謝謝委員。因為這個秘書長已經講了,我們的業務單位他的意見是顯然跟目標一樣,那顯然跟我們現在要的不一樣。"},{"start":23081.826,"end":23106.218,"text":"那就是保留嘛,保留讓他們,他們可能遇到這個案子,他剛剛已經講了兩次,下午再報告一次,剛剛又一次嘛。阿就保留給他,應該是尊重秘書長,他如果有辦法援助我們治安的目標,把這補費都沒了,就說他也沒比人太厲害啦,我是覺得保留啦。"},{"start":23108.908,"end":23126.605,"text":"立法院另一部小組改,包括整個國家政府組改都時常在做,沒有說這個民進黨講什麼就怎麼樣。我是提醒這個觀念,不是說作案來講什麼就什麼。現在我們在做立法院..."},{"start":23130.005,"end":23149.713,"text":"議員每年被害的數字太多了,坦白講大家都不是很清楚,都沒有很了解這一塊。況且他現在所謂的由副秘書長在掌理的治安的問題,他治安報告我們從來沒有看過,他有什麼時候給我們看過,只是本身坦白講我們要重視這個問題而已,讓立法院的行程"},{"start":23155.956,"end":23182.514,"text":"至於他們要抗拒,但是我們都會給人力的。這並不是說,啊那中央來公安給他安算。那不是這回事的。那這就可以討論的,但不是引他的話來打我們自己。謝謝。那個在審委員發言之前,主席在這邊說明一下,其實我們這個會議是在兩個發言台,也是副總召一句話,立法院就設了啦。所以委員們的意見還是最主要的。來,審委員發言,請。"},{"start":23185.526,"end":23204.014,"text":"我再強調一次就是說他他比較不是跌床駕屋也不是有合在一起的問題因為我舉個例子因為今天之所以要討論這一個是因為立法院被駭客攻擊是真的非常非常的嚴重那這個不是在怪資訊處而是因為資訊處原本的業務是要讓大家能夠順暢的建立我們能夠用的系統比如說"},{"start":23204.394,"end":23220.841,"text":"條文修正草案、電子公文系統等等之類,這是他最主要的業務。今天在自動安全的角度來講,他甚至可能必須要去模擬攻擊。比如說今天對方可能是什麼樣的攻擊,然後我們要怎麼防範。簡單來講,自動安全做得越好,大家用系統會用得越不順。"},{"start":23221.841,"end":23246.393,"text":"所以通常來講在企業裡面這兩個有時候會有點衝突是因為一方面要讓大家用得順但另外一方面又要讓大家變得比較麻煩所以這就是為什麼不管今天我們最後的結論如何這兩個能夠獨立作業其實是一件非常重要的事情所以他跟大家想像的本來是說我的資訊的系統本身的建立跟資訊的這個資通的安全其實完全是兩件事還包含說我們今天在"},{"start":23246.933,"end":23254.88,"text":"事周的這種不管是竊聽啊什麼等等之類的那個反而都在直通安全的範圍裡面但他不是在資訊系統建立這件事情上這樣子"},{"start":23255.834,"end":23284.931,"text":"那剛剛聽了申委員的高見齁,簡單講,我這樣說齁,可能就是自動安全術比較,資訊處讓大家靈活運用,會主張你要穿運動服,比較行動方便。自動安全術重視你的安全要你穿盔甲,你會行動不方便。那兩個單位一定有一個考量不同,一個希望靈活,希望你穿運動服上班,一個希望你安全,希望你穿盔甲上班。那到底要怎麼去折衷,可能兩個單位呢,就必須要分別來表達意見,還是怎麼樣齁,那我們再請教就教各位委員的意見,高見。"},{"start":23286.033,"end":23286.899,"text":"來 那個先羅委員再來吳委員"},{"start":23288.857,"end":23317.697,"text":"其實光這個題目我們討論很久發現都很有道理好不好都很有道理嘛但是每個道理著眼點不一樣嘛這是為什麼今天有黨團協商這個制度嘛那在這邊既然已經都卡關了對不對那很顯然這個立法院也有不一樣的看法嘛所以在這種情況之下我覺得也不是要否決民進黨的一些意見啦但是事實上我覺得那個立法院我們秘書長這邊的意見也很值得參考啊"},{"start":23318.357,"end":23319.058,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":23336.695,"end":23355.521,"text":"吳委員,我們待會再處理。吳委員發言嗎?我們再處理。好。釐清兩個事情。第一個先回應羅志強委員說的,在議事的程序上,確實委員會是委員會,保留協商是保留協商。但不因為有保留協商那一關,委員會的討論就沒有意義,就不應該進行。"},{"start":23357.241,"end":23384.897,"text":"關我們現在在討論這個條文我覺得這樣的討論是非常有意義的我們好好來釐清對於立法院的運作上資訊處的作業是什麼而國家法制更高層位的要求資通安全的管制面向跟防範面向又是什麼這樣的討論是非常有意義即便最後要保留協商也會受惠於我們在委員會討論的大家把觀念都做一番的釐清這就是委員會中心主義 對不對"},{"start":23386.258,"end":23406.794,"text":"那回到這個條文的本質其實大家剛剛都會提到說法務部有只有法務部有知通安全處其實大家 調查局大家想看看那為什麼是調查局因為調查局他做很多的調查事項他很有可能在安全的防範上的高位要很夠 對不對"},{"start":23408.015,"end":23417.427,"text":"那立法院是院級喔我們是院級喔剛剛大家就直接進入了行政院的部會裡面誰有誰沒有"},{"start":23419.284,"end":23439.989,"text":"那我們現在要站在院的層級立法院中華民國憲法五院在立法院的院的層級請不要用部會的層級來思考因為部會的這個權限分工上有不同的如果說以部會的思維來講的話行政院不就在我們上一屆努力過了這個數位發展部嗎彰顯國家對於數位發展資訊防範、資通安全的"},{"start":23445.811,"end":23470.089,"text":"高度重視,它是一個產業,它是一個安全防護的作業,它當然含貨面向非常廣。那既然立法院它是一個院的層級,我們所設的每一個下面的處事單位它都承載了很重要的輔佐立法院問政的量能。所以站在院的層級,我們有一個資通安全處,我覺得這個彰顯了我們對於資通安全的重視。"},{"start":23473.652,"end":23486.084,"text":"案、第二條及實際需要。實際需要。我剛又去把之前的那個報告拿出來看了一次。確實在2020年的報導,立法院一年就有550萬次被害。"},{"start":23489.81,"end":23491.231,"text":"條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":23507.364,"end":23532.957,"text":"所以在這個部分是保障整個國會的資通安全保障了工作同仁也保障了立法委員所以站在這個層級我還是認為資通安全處在立法院這樣一個重要的國會體系裡頭它的存在是必要的它的新設是必要的它相關的軟硬體跟人力的培育投入是必要的再一次說明"},{"start":23533.951,"end":23550.794,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":23550.874,"end":23571.789,"text":"台灣民眾黨總召黃委員本委員會國民黨總召副委員本委員會民主進步黨總召柯總召本委員會目前只有柯總召在是不是要不要問一下你們的總召對未來要進入政黨協商的看法我們先請謝委員再來請翁委員主席我告訴你沒有反對"},{"start":23578.459,"end":23584.359,"text":"那你講了做了什麼事擴大了多少個那個緣額對不對花了多少錢"},{"start":23585.578,"end":23613.805,"text":"我們就是看到速發部花了一大堆錢嘛沒有效果嘛那他有弄到什麼資安嗎這不是這樣嘛而且重點是今天是我們的資訊處他已經在事前的報告跟研議有針對提案他有提出一個研議稍微有不同那這樣就是讓中交去合作協商基本上我們沒有反對嘛那你說要設也可以不設也可以而且也希望"},{"start":23615.106,"end":23624.176,"text":"總召協商要求業務單位把將來對於資安的部分包括援額包括要做的事先考慮,這樣就好了,我們不是要做嚴謹"},{"start":23627.439,"end":23655.482,"text":"因為有兩位總召不在,我怕今天大家講一講,總召政黨協商的真的又不算...保佑我是尊重,我簡單講就好了。行政院組織法在上一屆全部改,很保守改反進步,你講的出發步,你說出發步也罷,因為組織法完全改很多。所以這個行政院底下的組織法都會改,包括基準法都改,總研法都量化出來。"},{"start":23656.423,"end":23684.617,"text":"但是我們也是厭急的當然我們覺得有需要的時候可以做組織的調整這是沒有問題但是因為秘書處、秘書長那邊有不同意見我們是多多尊重我們都尊重但是做得確定是大家做得確定所以不理我沒有意見平時不能改這個主改常常是做主改好不好我想這樣是翁委員嗎不能要處理"},{"start":23685.253,"end":23707.403,"text":"我最後要說一下就是因為我看到人事總處其實也有提出他們的意見那麼在他們的報告書上面是認為說可以就是將資安業務先納入資訊處的執掌來合併辦理同時正因為這個依照民進黨版的修法還增加到員額那麼我們有這麼多的員額可以增加嗎?可能請人事總處表示一下意見"},{"start":23708.399,"end":23736.156,"text":"其實來以後的研究就會調整我們現在整合法裏面當然還有嚴格的這今天沒有多少人所以這個當然我們總是有他的過去的關於原則他給我們一個建議所以我們聽所以我那時候會想說是兩個併在一起但是如共如明嘛資安和資訊是不一樣這個保留其章我都沒有意見這不是在吵了好不好"},{"start":23736.656,"end":23736.897,"text":"事務委員"},{"start":23752.58,"end":23781.778,"text":"政黨協商,那也請未來在政黨協商的時候黨團的總召能夠因為不在場所以我們就先做這樣的一個共識那就從第十四條、十五條、增訂十九條之二到二十四條我們保留送政黨協商。謝謝我們看二十八條那二十八條呢他是這樣二十八條呢他是一個也可以獨立來看他是要增加聘用具教授人員任用資格的資格者"},{"start":23782.438,"end":23795.364,"text":"那麼這個就是增加了立法院人才增補的管道那這個部分請就叫我們各位委員的意見來有沒有委員要發言來請吳世耀委員請"},{"start":23798.162,"end":23813.454,"text":"這一條第28條我們具體的針對25條所規範26條所規範的研究員、副研究員、助理研究員可以增加他增聘專業人力的這個法制化的授權"},{"start":23814.435,"end":23837.68,"text":"案,二十五條講的是我們的法制局跟預算中心分別列兩條。那我自己從二十幾歲,真的是二十多年前,我當國會助理開始,那我們一直認為立法院的法制局也好,預算中心也好,那在相關的法案還有每年年度總預算,然後各項預算的行使審議的過程都會準備"},{"start":23840.649,"end":23866.531,"text":"資料給立委或助理群、幕僚群們來做參照。但這麼多年來我自己身份轉換了變成立法委員了那我是真的很想要幫立法院一把也就是讓我們有更彈性的人事任用的空間來補強我們這些這兩個預算中心法治局的同仁工作的協力"},{"start":23867.335,"end":23891.101,"text":"而這兩個法治局預算中心的專業人力的導入就可以正向的幫助立法委員問政品質的提升我花一點點時間我跟大家說我自己印象很深刻我上個會期上一屆在因應文化基本法要設文化發展基金這件事這是文化基本法的條文喔"},{"start":23891.821,"end":23909.202,"text":"文化基本法是基本法的位階,它等同於憲法賦予的憲法高度的基本法的位階,可是它要設一個文化發展基金卻卡在財政委員會的財政紀律法裡頭的規範,所以產生了條文跟條文之間的漢格。"},{"start":23910.579,"end":23927.357,"text":"我找了很多學者專家討論。外部的學者專家都跟我說:「四要委員,你是立法院委員,你應該找你們立法院的預算中心跟法治局的同仁跟你表達意見一起討論。」我從20幾年來,從立法院的助理當到立法委員。"},{"start":23928.218,"end":23939.81,"text":"我第一次我可以邀請預算中心法治局的人來到我辦公室一起討論我也印象很深刻我邀請他們來的時候來參與這個議題討論的同仁也都覺得沒有立委來找我們發表過意見"},{"start":23945.438,"end":23951.959,"text":"議員高金素梅等一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案件及立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件及立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":23969.523,"end":23989.848,"text":"所以這個過程也讓我清楚的認知國會議員確實應當跟立法院的幕僚機關多一點討論多一點協力讓我們的監督的效能更有品質而同樣的我們來看看這麼多年來的預算中心跟法治局的人事的編制每天每當"},{"start":23993.806,"end":24014.112,"text":"那他們是需要最跟上時代的進步思維才可以協助立法委員有進步的立法跟預算的審查所以民主進步黨提了這個條文就是希望說法制局跟預算中心現在的研究員、副研究員跟助理研究員可以放寬他的人事聘任"},{"start":24014.952,"end":24041.006,"text":"的標準,那我們具體是希望能夠聘用誰呢?具教育人員任用資格的教授、副教授、助理教授以及講師資格者,可以進到國會的場域來提供他們外部的觀點跟專業的導入。我覺得這都是非常正面的。也許在原額的管控、聘任、聘用的這個討論上,我們等一下可以一起就教一起討論。"},{"start":24041.846,"end":24057.667,"text":"但是方向性上周恩來秘書長就這個條文也跟我表達過很多次您也是非常正向的樂觀以待所以我希望這個條文可以有所進展獲得大家的支持好 那麼這個條文好像沒有什麼不同意見嘛 有沒有不同意見"},{"start":24059.889,"end":24062.813,"text":"主席、各位委員,因為這個條文在民進黨黨團提案以後,是內部有請法書局在做研究。"},{"start":24076.406,"end":24091.921,"text":"我自己本身在這考試委員也瞭解拼用聯演拼用條例以現行法的規定跟民進黨所提的用拼用那是不可能解決的所以因為拼用跟聘任的意涵是不同"},{"start":24092.822,"end":24116.038,"text":"所以後來也請了法制局的一個副研究員專題去做研究我這邊有內參資料那如果用聘任的方式那可以解決解決到民進黨黨員所提的各位委員希望把法制局預算中心的強化他的幕僚功能但我在剛剛見民進黨的時候也特別有提過"},{"start":24116.698,"end":24116.938,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":24133.709,"end":24134.09,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":24150.071,"end":24150.311,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":24168.712,"end":24169.332,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":24193.337,"end":24193.357,"text":"案 。"},{"start":24206.653,"end":24207.213,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":24223.319,"end":24223.879,"text":"條文修正草案案案例"},{"start":24246.365,"end":24247.126,"text":"條文修正草案案案例。"},{"start":24275.507,"end":24288.295,"text":"我個人是有跟幾個這兩個單位主管談是不是能夠其中的四分之一可以納出來有聘任的這些相關的人也進來那這樣的話可能會把這兩個單位會擴大"},{"start":24292.877,"end":24300.606,"text":"條文擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案件,在立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件,在立法院組織法部分條文擬具"},{"start":24314.46,"end":24335.18,"text":"那在限制未排除前不宜再用聘用人員禁用而改用聘任的方式為之那至於聘用人員跟聘任有什麼差別那我想在場我們這邊有考試院的保訓重規處的處長有權敘部的全審司的司長也有人總的好像沒有"},{"start":24339.195,"end":24362.468,"text":"人事總署也有編組人力處的處長,請教我們委員是不是要先請這幾位表示意見?來,柯總長。我們發言以後,他們有關於拼的那個營造就業人員,人家情緒部或是法制委員總的說法,我們都尊重專業的說法。我想說為什麼要有這一條?"},{"start":24364.105,"end":24385.339,"text":"剛才司法委員說他來立法院二十幾年,第一次找好幾人來研究法案,到一三中心。但是慈民而論我來三十幾年,那為什麼不找他們來研究法案呢?慈民而論法二十幾年和一三中心的人每一次寫的報告差不多一樣。"},{"start":24386.88,"end":24406.535,"text":"因為這些人都是公務人員,都是公務人員,那他們loading也蠻大的,比如說立法院委員有什麼法案出來,法治局馬上要寫他的評估報告,都很快,其實坦白講人力都有限,都很弱,尤其"},{"start":24407.864,"end":24435.323,"text":"我們國會改革國會合法的時候1993年到1999年成立國會合法的時候就成立國會圖書館法治及預算中心但是呢他的研發能量以及他們的法案能力應該亦以加強因為都是用公務人員嘛一叫有立法院提出法案出來他馬上會弄出來一下弄一本出來但是呢對我來講"},{"start":24436.684,"end":24458.343,"text":"每一個思維,再一次認為思維是不一樣。然後比如說,有一個我請專案委員我問你一個事情就好了。現在國會改革從哪裡出來?各版本完全沒有,不一致。請問我們法治局有沒有做一個評估報告出來?針對"},{"start":24461.045,"end":24485.487,"text":"現在國會改革這麼多版本差異度這麼大有沒有違憲啊有沒有怎麼樣我們有沒有做一個評估報告出來李博士請問你來講我大概2月6號我5號來就任嘛6號他們法治局就已經提了19個有關於國會改革的這個評估報告那最重要的是因為大家"},{"start":24487.088,"end":24506.355,"text":"整個聚焦在調查聽證所以我們在3月5號就有印了一個其他各個國家的有關於調查聽證的相關的事項都有提供給所以他聚焦在調查聽證有沒有在評估所謂總統來做國運報告幾問題大問題這些都高度要法證人才"},{"start":24513.19,"end":24519.898,"text":"而且還蠻想,這些人才寫出來認為就是說國民黨的有違憲之疑,他們覺得嚇"},{"start":24524.334,"end":24545.4,"text":"各位問這一個狀況,將來你用了評論連連他大概也不敢對...大家請問一下是什麼?不是...所以...欸...可以...欸...我只問你一句話,大家知道福尼維立法院佛字典,你上來,福尼大法院七三五四字你知道嗎?大法院四字七三五?"},{"start":24552.236,"end":24553.376,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24575.825,"end":24603.528,"text":"我就是要繞開啦,你永遠上來,我們當初我們兩個衝突很厲害就是,林一十位可以不可以提不信任,那時候王院長時期嘛,你永不可以林一十位特定事項。我說沒有,不是現在是憲法層次的,隨時可以提出來,不是現在提出來的時候,你永不還,就學會馬上要召集會議。我們在這,在講在這一點上辯論很厲害,所以我高度懷疑你的憲法"},{"start":24604.872,"end":24605.572,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":24629.765,"end":24630.926,"text":"在憲法的概念上不一樣嘛"},{"start":24652.412,"end":24680.688,"text":"所謂去釋憲、七三五四字案當然林石瑞也可以提不信的案嘛所以我說為什麼我們要增加一些人力增加法證人才我應該說是想保守公民的心態是這個意思你不要我跟他在辯論中間你不必插嘴你要挑戰我可以我就來辯論他玩七三五四字你只要插上七三五四字這當然我提出來了嘛五八五也是我提的嘛所以當然他在立法院這麼久了"},{"start":24681.687,"end":24708.367,"text":"我會經驗這麼久是一點一滴累積堆積上來我以前是牙醫啊我沒辦法啊那是人一輩子都在學習我現在是2.5萬的牙醫為什麼?我專門虎口拔牙拔肝腦牙齒所以大家都在學習中嘛要檢討改進嘛其實我相信你是你一輩子一個很難過的事情那一直要為了這兩個人我們"},{"start":24712.356,"end":24740.281,"text":"衝突非常嚴重我認為你過分保守我知道民進黨當然是維護院長嘛我們黨長移執政你現在要用黨國思維來看待這個事情實在都轉變了所以這一條的意義在這裡要任用一些引進新聞系列出來法證人才等等跟他們人才進來我今天不是老虎這是事實存在我今天是不得不要把你點出這一點"},{"start":24741.579,"end":24742.559,"text":"今天所列的四個議程"},{"start":24771.007,"end":24790.86,"text":"報告委員會今天所列的這四個議程裡面四個案子裡頭請考試院來的是第四案第四案的部分是有關立法院的職權行使法那有關這個立法院的組織法部分並沒有請考試院列席了解了解好那不過呢"},{"start":24791.56,"end":24815.42,"text":"在這個地方我還是提醒就是說有關聘用人員聘用條例的部分他在第七條的部分有特別提到說有關這個有檢建委職務的這個部分如果是聘用人員的話他是不能夠兼任這些職務的在目前的聘用人員人事條例裡面是有這樣的一個規範那如果說"},{"start":24817.646,"end":24818.046,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24837.306,"end":24864.372,"text":"提醒委員會就是說因為我們現行的聘用人員是條例的第七條它裡面有特別規定有一種情況就是說聘用人員的部分它是不能夠對於目前由簡建委職務的這些名稱是不能夠由聘用人員來做相關的一個職務的接任那如果說在目前民進黨黨團提出來的這個條文沒有去做調整的時候"},{"start":24864.952,"end":24882.94,"text":"再加上聘用人人事條例的剛剛我所提到的這個條文沒有修正的時候可能兩個部分就會有所判個敵處那這一點是提醒委員會以上好謝謝我們那個考試院的處長那這一點請大家看我們今天台灣對照表"},{"start":24883.76,"end":24900.679,"text":"的第七頁第七頁第28條的那個條文說明﹖立法說明好像剛剛處長講的意見就是在民進黨團提案的立法說明裡面那接續下來我們繼續請全序部全審次王司長"},{"start":24901.46,"end":24915.936,"text":"然後我這邊也在預告一下我們有教育部今天集的書妹意見當中他有就這個部分的表示意見所以待會也請教育部的列席的官員教育部是人事處的專門委員廖專委員請準備接下來我們請市長"},{"start":24920.061,"end":24942.239,"text":"總裁審討會,我是前系部前兩司司長王永道那針對這個提案就是因為民進黨黨團提案就是因為現行的那個條文跟那個聘用條例會有不合的一個地方所以實務上沒有去禁用聘用人人那聘用人人跟聘任人人的差別在於聘任人人是常務人人"},{"start":24943.18,"end":24962.369,"text":"按照《立法院組織法第25條、第26條》的規定,這些職務本來是公務人員的一個職務,公務人員本身也是常務人員。原先的規定反而是把它規定說可以用聘用人員來聘用,那聘用人員是臨時人員,兩個身份屬性是不一樣。"},{"start":24963.029,"end":24984.475,"text":"案件,其中一律師及其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位"},{"start":24986.175,"end":24988.016,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院主席賴瑞隆等"},{"start":25004.141,"end":25027.777,"text":"案,另外前夕部事實上現在正在擬兩個草案將來會送到考試院之後看看會不會送到大院來審查就是一個是7A人人人事條例那7A人人人事條例規定的對象就是A聘顧人員那另外有一個是聘任人人人事條例聘任人人人事條例就是可能這個地方他"},{"start":25028.217,"end":25049.155,"text":"規範規範規範"},{"start":25049.515,"end":25074.029,"text":"在我們還沒見過出來之前目前各機關他的聘任都是像這個地方建立修正的條文就是去准用教育人認用條例的規定是一致的那相關潛力事項現在就是說變成說在我們還沒見過出來之前就要由印裏面來自己去規定那以上補充說明謝謝我們還有任總"},{"start":25080.325,"end":25088.378,"text":"人總後再來教一步。清楚了,就來評論,因為我們說明欄裡面的演繹也是如此,你先講沒關係。"},{"start":25090.472,"end":25093.554,"text":"兩位再補充說明來翁委員請我其實很支持吳委員這裡說的就是未來我們的研究人員如果說能夠擴大到連這個具有一定學術資格的人員可以來擔任研究員只是說剛剛聽了就是幾個單位的說明那確實在這裡的條文的這個運用上尤其是拼用"},{"start":25113.329,"end":25138.338,"text":"人員條例,他的規定基本上是看起來就是只能聘類似像臨時就不是做很久的人員那如果說現在要做成是改成為聘任的話那麼我有一個問題就是那這些具有教育人員任用資格的教授、副教授、助理教授等等這些老師們他們未來在這個職等的轉任上面是怎麼樣處理"},{"start":25139.878,"end":25166.117,"text":"就是他們拼進來之後就是整個的他的職業的軌道就轉成變成是公務員了嗎?應該說他的身份他的身份還是那個聘任人員啦他只是他聘任人員跟公務人員一樣都是常任的性質他是比較身份地位比較有保障那聘用人員他是臨時性目前就是那個一年一聘"},{"start":25167.077,"end":25194.089,"text":"一聯一聘,他的保障他的性質因為比較是臨時人的性質比較沒有保障那至於他的那個等級通常因為他站的是我們公務人員的那個簡健委官職等的相當職務所以他會依照那個相當職務來對照教育人的相當等級來去聘任他也是會用的比如說教授、副教授、助理教授、助教授這樣的一個職稱來去聘任"},{"start":25196.015,"end":25218.188,"text":"另外我想請教秘書長的就是現在立法院到底有沒有是依照聘用人員條例所聘進來的研究員沒有一個都沒有因為但是聘用人員涉及到聘用人員的條例就很難應用所以也就是說現在現行條例的第28條其實向來也都沒有運用過"},{"start":25220.256,"end":25244.852,"text":"也沒有聘用人員,都是官職等人員。這是公務員。如果民進黨黨團提案,他同意按照秘書長修正這樣,沒有爭議嗎?這個我再補充一點,就是說我希望以後聘用人員要有公法學者。"},{"start":25245.828,"end":25269.537,"text":"這是很重要。還有憲法學者、公法學者。所以我剛才講為什麼我跟周恩來委員常常有對槓的時候,就最嚴重的那一次,就是不信任案。我希望有公法學者。"},{"start":25273.599,"end":25292.054,"text":"吳委員,待會如果有需要人事總處或教育部的練習官員我們再請他說明。來,先請吳思耀委員。所以就是我們把民進黨團,依民進黨團的提案,就是把第一項的聘用改聘任,然後第二項的前項聘用人員改成聘任人員,如果依民進黨團的黨團版本這樣來通過?"},{"start":25295.537,"end":25308.461,"text":"因為呢,剛剛雖然立法院你們有提供了一個修正動議,但其實是寫法差不多啦。要教你們這個,大家共同來決定啦,要教你們這個修正建議條文和草案,或是民進黨的黨團,方向就對了,就可以了啦。沒有,這條難道大家有共識多好?"},{"start":25317.83,"end":25323.175,"text":"議員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案 。議員高金素梅等23人擬具"},{"start":25340.663,"end":25362.126,"text":"秘書長的帶你的擬議的內容我這邊本來就是想要說我們剛好去年就做了一些主改的法案其實像在農事所就是農業試驗研究單位他們其實都有一定的一個體力他大概都是寫說屬的研究員及副研究員必要時得比照教育人員任用條例相關規定聘任之聘任之"},{"start":25362.626,"end":25389.392,"text":"對,然後其退休撫恤比照教師相關規定辦理並報相關主管機關來核定因為我們是會覺得用比照比較適合比照啦不要用準用啦不要用準用變成好像是身份完全謝謝那個這樣好不好那個修正東西可以再修正啦那個教育部他的文字也是寫比照啦那是不是請教育部的列席代表說明一下來那個"},{"start":25391.495,"end":25405.334,"text":"張亮專門委員主席跟各位委員齁那那個教育部的意見跟剛剛人事總署的類似啊齁就在體力上我們也是比較建議用比照的方式然後比照教育人員的方式來運用以上"},{"start":25410.847,"end":25436.965,"text":"主席準用才是法律原理耶,比照是我們覺得是我們法律上很少用比照這兩個字啊有啦那個很少勒比照跟準用概念是不一樣的啦因為相近的話才會用準用來用啦那你現在的一個是本來是這裡如果是用聘任的話他有三種來源啦"},{"start":25439.006,"end":25465.956,"text":"案,因此我們會用準用的概念來,即使我們算了,如果初步來講,如果用以這個教授為教授來到這一個單位,他的待遇比現有的公務員待遇高,他們也算過了,大概,甚至教授也搭了兩萬多塊的錢,他們也算給我看是,大概我沒有拿出來,大概多是比現在的公務員員的"},{"start":25467.136,"end":25468.997,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":25497.031,"end":25499.934,"text":"每個列舉牌。每個列舉牌。每個列舉牌。每個列舉牌。每個列舉牌。"},{"start":25517.892,"end":25535.61,"text":"考論事項第一案修正動議二立法院組織法第二十八條修正條文第二十八條、第二十五條及第二十六條所列之研究員、副研究員、助理研究員得准用教育人員任用條例聘任之"},{"start":25536.371,"end":25563.621,"text":"前向聘任人員之臨聘、原額、待遇、業務、管理及考核事項由立法院定之提案人委員林思明、柯建明、聯署人謝龍介、委員謝龍介、羅志強、翁曉琳、吳宗憲、吳思瑤、沈發慧、陳俊宇、沈伯陽。詢讀完畢。好,那麼我們本案是不是很難得今天進行到這裡我們就照修正動議法案通過"},{"start":25565.549,"end":25565.95,"text":"三）委員賴瑞隆等"},{"start":25591.377,"end":25619.247,"text":"那接下來我們就進行三十二條三十二條是委員賴瑞隆和委員高金素梅的兩個不同提案那麼委員這邊因為兩個委員的案子雖然都只是增加一項但是內容是很不一樣一個是公費助理的法制化一個是委員的一些資用費用要希望立法院另行那先請各位委員表示意見"},{"start":25622.509,"end":25645.898,"text":"高金委員,雖然他不在場,但是他有特別表示說他的案子保留到黨團來協商。保留黨團協商。來,那請問民進黨黨團這邊。我們尊重啦,沒有關係。好,那麼,那是不是我們...我們不接受審判啦。好,兩位委員的提案我們都保留送政黨協商。"},{"start":25648.477,"end":25674.847,"text":"案。接下來我們進行33條是高金委員的提案。國民黨委員提議也是保留政黨協商。接下來我們增訂第三十三條之三是民進黨團提案。請問大家對國會簽協案有看好嗎?這應該也可以成為一個……是不是也可以成為我們這次的共識之一?"},{"start":25676.314,"end":25693.687,"text":"三十條之三賴秘書長請三十條之三齁在我們中央行政機關組織基礎法裡面的規定啦但我們目前的立法院的組織也是要準用中央行政機關的組織法的規定機關的組織法規不會把這個列在裡面"},{"start":25699.542,"end":25703.246,"text":"所以我個人比較研究一個建議是不是可以請委員把這一個條文改為互代決議當然我們也正在很積極地已經有簽給院長那可能要透過黨團協商來極力地去推動這個了"},{"start":25720.842,"end":25726.586,"text":"案件,因此在幕僚的立場,我是認為這條案是不再增訂,用一個互代決議來處理,請各位委員斟酌看看。"},{"start":25735.322,"end":25760.608,"text":"這個我有不同意見這只是一個先知性條款立法院組織法一定要面對這個而且我很知道我進來的時候就開始三十幾年國會簽簽案當時有華山案要三百多億後來因為有一個立法委員,我不好意思講啦他說立法院怎麼可以簽簽在另外蓋一個立法院這個有違反我們要反攻大陸原則"},{"start":25763.001,"end":25764.202,"text":"一）立法院組織法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":25777.952,"end":25797.357,"text":"這個你本來應該考慮到未來國會品質提升要問問空間這個是大家都很清楚但是呢只是說因為委員長那時候做很多只是考慮要簽證或是扣件案留一個在立法院組織法裡面這個有何不可能這個還要互來結議這麼有什麼大事要互來結議啊"},{"start":25802.448,"end":25821.123,"text":"來,請那個是林委員先,然後再來羅委員,再來吳委員。這個什麼時候會落實的,不知道啊。那個,總長好。這樣的立法齁,我們看來真的是很奇怪。立法院要不要簽訂的事情,自己在立法院的組織法裡面去訂說應及早規劃國會擴建簽簽案。"},{"start":25824.428,"end":25825.169,"text":"條文修正草案"},{"start":25842.641,"end":25845.224,"text":"法律用宣誓性的條文定在法規裡面我們覺得這個立法技術上是有很大的問題"},{"start":25860.522,"end":25872.529,"text":"對阿,我看來北医把宣誓性的東西讓我很尊重你,不是,這樣看起來真的說,把我們立法院的牽涉的問題,把它寫說應急早規劃,這大家都知道阿沒有錯,但是你用立法去規範這件事情,對阿"},{"start":25884.332,"end":25895.041,"text":"第十會期、第九會期我們都沒去說這個我想你第九會期、第十會期應該也都知道說有院長也一直講要簽證啊但是我們也沒說所以說所以我們有一個委員會去推動他就好了不用立法啦我們說實在的沒有法律去規定啦準統秘書長"},{"start":25907.532,"end":25926.247,"text":"如果大家有爭議就保留了黨團協商。其實我想柯總長您對這個國會的牽涉應該是有很大的情感投入也關注很多人其實你的論點我覺得也都很有價值但是我們其實爭點不是國會的擴建跟牽涉今天爭點是這個東西放在那個立法院組織法"},{"start":25928.589,"end":25946.102,"text":"案件,我認為我們可能要再斟酌一下。為什麼?因為你從社會大眾的觀感來看會覺得第一個立法體力有這樣做的嗎?這是立法體力。第二就是說我們立法院就把國會的擴建、增建然後簽件把它放到立法院組織法。我覺得可以有別的方式處理。"},{"start":25950.385,"end":25950.405,"text":"判斷"},{"start":25971.423,"end":25988.208,"text":"你以法院要蓋過、要簽件、要開三七八一,老百姓看得下去嗎?只是此刻國會印象不是很好。但是呢,扣薪案總可以談嘛。康也那邊曾經在蘇院長的時候,蘇院院長說,他昨晚在扣薪案。"},{"start":25988.948,"end":26006.956,"text":"而且說立法院裡面包括抗議那邊還有國民黨用的那些警察那邊是不是可以蓋個大樓?這個都可以討論。但是這個已經搞了三十幾年,我們今天只是先是強管在這裡,並沒有圖利自己。因為等到真的有這個回事的時候,我們都不在立法院了。因為有要表示發言人,好像有翁委員跟吳委員,是不是?來翁委員先。"},{"start":26015.536,"end":26040.181,"text":"我還是同樣的意見認為三十三條之三定在這裡其實是不合組織法的體例那我也非常支持柯總召的說法就是這個立法院的擴建簽件案應該要儘早處理是不是可以之後在不同的場合比如在院會正式提案然後我們定一個時程定一個日期然後趕快去做這個因為及早應及早規劃這也是一個"},{"start":26042.842,"end":26056.053,"text":"這不確定的名詞嘛對不對這到底要急找到什麼時候我建議是說這個條文其實真的利益良善可是呢不適合定在組織法"},{"start":26062.432,"end":26084.097,"text":"我個人的看法是這樣,拖了二、三十年,我再一次強調國會不管是簽建或是擴建都是下一個世代的事情。我們是為未來的世代來爭取一個很好的、有國會象徵的、有民主高度的國會新建築。"},{"start":26085.464,"end":26092.69,"text":"那如果說不入法,不入法,咱的附帶決議只得算了嗎?"},{"start":26095.496,"end":26122.485,"text":"這麼多年來就是沒有人勇敢的去面對我們的國會擴建或簽建的作為。那現行我們在面對國會改革,把面向拉得大一點。我們一直認為國會改革的面向不是只有國會的權力的擴充,它當然還必須賦予我們職能的提升跟責任的賦予跟自我的自律跟克責。"},{"start":26123.615,"end":26149.453,"text":"但另外一個部分國會的改革很大的一部分空間會去導引人的運作人的行為為什麼我以一個辦公室的空間會議室的空間來說一個好的規劃案會有利於一個討論的效能這就是為什麼司法法制委員會到底是坐下來質詢還是又改回去"},{"start":26149.813,"end":26152.935,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":26168.624,"end":26194.357,"text":"我舉這個例子就是在告訴大家需要藉由空間的導向新的思維的導入去改造國會問政的新的模式所以國會的改建絕對是一個重要的國會改革的一個更大的面向的議題但如果你不用法律去明定它我就再次說附帶決議多得像山一樣"},{"start":26195.731,"end":26216.72,"text":"所以立法院組織法是我們橫著在山認為是以放入這樣一個條文的法律案如果說大家對於及早這兩個字的時程意涵不是那麼了解那我也可以同意應進行國會擴建簽件案"},{"start":26220.095,"end":26231.18,"text":"條文就是應進行這事實上我們也在ING也在進行嘛如果大家只是擔心這個及早的這個時程不夠明確但是大家都理解跟同意"},{"start":26232.15,"end":26254.948,"text":"要讓這個事情成為跨黨派共同推進的國會改革的一部分。」所以如果及早兩個字我是可以認為就是如果就文字上失聲的不確定性的話就把33條之三應及早規劃國會擴建簽件案可以調整為應進行規劃國會擴建簽件案往前走一步"},{"start":26255.689,"end":26266.753,"text":"往前推一把,有法律的授權,大家能夠很清楚的依法行事。」這是我們提這個案子的緣由。主席,個人建議,就直接要求秘書長"},{"start":26276.889,"end":26297.892,"text":"那本院在今年度要審了在明年度114年的預算編列立法院的擴簽件的規劃案的這個預算然後要求他在明年發包我講一下好了來那個我也不知道有沒有來柯委柯總召"},{"start":26298.618,"end":26320.527,"text":"各位,所謂國會改革,當然有職業基金司法,還有立法院組織法、各委員組織法,也有立法院行為法、議事規則等。這是1993年以後到1999年這樣走出來。那要了解,在我們進來,第二屆進來以前的立法委員他是沒有當公司的。"},{"start":26321.673,"end":26345.653,"text":"頂多一個黨黨辦公室,沒有辦公室。我進來的時候辦公室是四個桌子,擠了八個人。我常常睡在地板上,在青島會館的時候。我現在的空間一直改善,後來有青島會館,有中心會館等等。前世的國會沒有這樣如此的啊。國會要做國會的重點。"},{"start":26347.199,"end":26371.246,"text":"而有空間,空間的改革也是一種改革。並不是說大家要像這個也是改革過的。因為開會的時候為什麼要解開?有爭議的時候,所有的記者擠來組一台,根本沒有辦法開會啊。所以這個是以前高的女校的,它是以前歷史建築的。"},{"start":26372.799,"end":26375.609,"text":"那也應得到用到今天我們要誠實的面對這個問題我們沒有要圖利的任務問題"},{"start":26379.571,"end":26403.292,"text":"另外國會圖書館是不是要弄大?其實國會圖書館是不是要弄很像國會圖書館?我們剛才講法治及預算中心,我們也希望它能夠增加。這個是對於另外一個問政這樣有幫助的。我們另外一個不是每天好好弄的,要對下的。但是另外一個問政品質和空間也有很大的關係。"},{"start":26405.624,"end":26428.806,"text":"在這樣的擁擠環境裏面,國家國會它有運動場所什麼都有。各位你知道美國國會的時候,在地下有地鐵,那個是一個國會山莊啊。這才有一個真正先進機關的基本的專業性。所以這不是沒什麼空間。"},{"start":26430.168,"end":26435.372,"text":"然後我們可以聽兜範來一句話說你怎麼不封在決議這是這樣嗎各位一環是大家要維護的這是封在這裡一個先施一條環盡早規劃不然要放在哪裡"},{"start":26447.839,"end":26464.689,"text":"所以各位不要排斥,過去對於國會簽卷我是非常悲觀的,但我覺得擴建還有一點空間,但是沒有關係,新的國會也有新的民意,大家再去討論看看。"},{"start":26466.581,"end":26490.519,"text":"好那麼陳委員請發言好謝謝主席那因為我們國會本身算是百年建築了如果以早期的921跟最近的0403來看這個當然也讓我們要重新檢討我們現行的這些建築物的安全性那也在0403的這一場地震裡面看到我們確實"},{"start":26491.8,"end":26492.3,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":26520.175,"end":26538.149,"text":"這個他指擴建甚至在他指牽見的這個方案當中我是認為說應該是要及早去做規劃了那我們好不容易在上一屆那已經有勾選出6個這個點的位置也非常的明確"},{"start":26539.51,"end":26564.498,"text":"這六個點適不適合應該我們秘書長這邊是不是盡早跟我們院長這邊來做一個報告並且成立新的這個我們的這個委員會來繼續推動把我們整個大家所期待的這些這個國會的整個形象重新塑造起來那其實在我們旁邊這個康源"},{"start":26566.904,"end":26573.608,"text":"案、警察宿舍等條文修正草案 案、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 案、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案"},{"start":26588.217,"end":26589.518,"text":"案案案案案案案"},{"start":26610.512,"end":26613.395,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":26634.062,"end":26652.877,"text":"所以這個安全問題我相信非常的重要秘書長應該也能夠體認那我請秘書長這邊應該要積極的來推動這個不管是有沒有入法最主要最主要就是不希望遙遙無期已經經過二三十年還沒看到我們"},{"start":26653.902,"end":26666.608,"text":"整個國會改建的這個方案有實際在動工的情形這讓我們是感覺有一點遺憾這部分請秘書長再來繼續加油好謝謝最後我們吳委員表示意見"},{"start":26667.835,"end":26681.746,"text":"再花一點時間跟大家探討我再次強調這樣子對話是非常有意義的終於針對國會的擴建或簽件可以讓立法委員也就是立法院的主要使用者可以藉由一個法案的審議過程來做對話"},{"start":26684.228,"end":26699.024,"text":"案。過去對於國會的擴建或簽建,除了由錫坤院長非常勇於認識的組成了專家諮詢會,立法院也組成了跨黨派的委員會議,但是從來都沒有一個像今天這麼"},{"start":26700.626,"end":26718.447,"text":"慎重藉由審查法案的過程大家可以經過對話被記錄這個是非常重要的事情這也是為什麼民主進步黨要在立法院組織法法案的修正提出這樣一個條文讓它成為一個法律的授權"},{"start":26719.673,"end":26737.398,"text":"依法行事,未來的立法院不管誰多數,不管誰是院長,不管政黨如何的交換席次、政黨輪替,都應當依法來推行立法院的國會簽建或擴建案。"},{"start":26738.138,"end":26765.603,"text":"所以為什麼要入法在這裡那我再進一步論述剛剛柯總召講到的早在1993年李登輝的時代當初就選擇要在華山車站的舊址就是現在的華山義文大草坪的地方要簽建國會可是當時有審查委員就因為政黨的意識形態那時候挑戰了李登輝你要蓋新國會是不是就代表台灣要獨立了"},{"start":26767.823,"end":26782.07,"text":"所以當時的審查委員認為說如果蓋了新國會就代表中華民國回不到南京去了也因此在政治的意識形態之下新國會計畫不了了之這是1993年"},{"start":26784.133,"end":26809.932,"text":"在1999年的時候新國會也重新選址第二次很慎重的選址要在空總、空軍總部的就職而且那個時候有編了預算有241.5億的預算也編了可是那個時候又因為政治的因素臺北市議會認為那塊地臺北市有主導權然後部分的立法院的黨團又有意見了"},{"start":26811.107,"end":26816.446,"text":"那當然那個時候很不幸的發生了九二一地震也因為國家經費要去救災"},{"start":26817.665,"end":26843.505,"text":"所以在一個救災為先那他的背後更因為有政黨意識形態的不同所以讓新國會好不容易選址了也編列預算了向前一大步了預算就反映政策嘛有預算就必須執行嘛所以呢那個時候新國會簽件案的預算就被收回國會的簽件案再次二度落空所以為什麼要入法"},{"start":26844.44,"end":26852.805,"text":"入法就是不論誰執政法律保障授權這個事件要被落實要被推進"},{"start":26854.264,"end":26879.96,"text":"不論誰執政,不再受時空條件的轉換而受影響。」我聽了大家的意見,各黨的委員都支持國會要慎重的去面對我們的空間不足,然後需要一個新的革新的空間,大家都同意。如果這樣的話,唯一能夠確保不受政治因素來干擾的國會簽建案或擴建案可以往前走,入法。"},{"start":26881.161,"end":26909.497,"text":"就是一個最好的方式他是有法律的效力的這就是為什麼我作為民進黨國會改革小組的召集人討論這個條文我們非常的慎重我們認為在立法院組織法裡頭國會改革關鍵的時刻把空間的改革也作為國會改革的一個面向它有意義性、它有實質性、它有時代性所以我再次請求大家以民進黨的版本來做通過"},{"start":26911.039,"end":26911.54,"text":"事由．委員"},{"start":26922.509,"end":26948.372,"text":"不要掩飾你的認同吧!就是說你現在你講好像說我們沒有立法我們就好像沒有一個法規依據去做立法院的簽件擴建那實際上是這樣嗎?不是啊即便我們沒有今天沒有這個立這個法一樣我們還是我們的院長還是可以指示我們的秘書處趕快去規劃立法院的簽件擴建的這件事"},{"start":26949.893,"end":26950.213,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":26968.384,"end":26968.725,"text":"條文宣誓"},{"start":26984.835,"end":26987.437,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":27012.601,"end":27013.202,"text":"賴瑞隆等23人擬具"},{"start":27030.08,"end":27049.585,"text":"我的意思是我跟陳委員在我備詢的過程當中我一直強調以我個人立場一定是對於這個擴建新建我一定以個人立場我一定極益去推動這個東西那我現在為什麼一直好像各位好像我很堅持不是"},{"start":27050.365,"end":27057.532,"text":"因為各位瞭解到中央行政區機關組織法第七條及三十八條規定機關的組織法規有零定的範圍所以因為組織法規的設計在體力上以幕僚的角度來看這個組織法設計上是不是擺在這邊是可以大家去斟酌的所以我才提出來了"},{"start":27074.807,"end":27076.168,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":27103.084,"end":27108.166,"text":"條文修正草案案案件,其中一條條文修正草案案件,其中一條條條文修正草案案件,其中一條條條文修正草案案件,其中一條條條文修正草案案件,"},{"start":27130.692,"end":27136.376,"text":"我才提出這個意見並不是我反對這個擴建所以我必須要做澄清補充的事情謝謝民進黨因為時間齁從兩點到現在我們很認真的做了兩個超過兩個小時的處理我們先五位委員後我們就做處理好不好"},{"start":27166.164,"end":27183.508,"text":"我個人還是認為在研議這個條文過程是幾經非常慎重的思量也跟專業界充分的對話所以我是希望民主金融黨的立場還是用這樣一個條文來加速我們對於國會牽涉擴建的一個意志力的執行"},{"start":27184.713,"end":27205.42,"text":"那我也希望周秘書長我非常尊重您今天在討論民進黨的版本的意見裡頭那您在您秘書長幕僚長的這個身份上提出了很多您的建議跟見解我只是要提醒您未來有機會進入職權刑事法的討論過程你就應當本與你的法律專業去講該講的話"},{"start":27208.081,"end":27234.008,"text":"不要選擇性的有預設立場的針對誰的版本誰的條文那引經據典法律秩序怎麼樣立法技術怎麼樣我只是要做這個提醒我非常希望幕僚獎未來在不同的版本的討論過程也應當勇於發言否則我發現在其他的版本在討論的過程當中您都選擇噤聲不敢講話這樣不好好我做這個提醒"},{"start":27234.948,"end":27260.247,"text":"因為我們討論事項第一案討論在這裡已經也超過一個半小時了是不是我們做個處理這個是不是也雖然兩邊的意見都很有道理我們就可以提醒一下好不好因為這位秘書長剛才有提到我們兩個是同年的那都訊號你出了直面問我們對於這個國家以及未來對我來講的話"},{"start":27262.147,"end":27286.578,"text":"這些做完十屆也應該剛好還想避免泄客。我只讓政治生命的移民來貢獻給這個國家。在立法院裡面的經驗,我們兩個,你剛才說民國六十二人進來,你是走公務人員生涯,我是走民意代表生涯,那個邏輯思維是不一樣的。我都做了二十幾年的民進黨總召,"},{"start":27289.008,"end":27314.192,"text":"在民進黨我三十年在立法院裡面我一半時間在在野黨一半時間在民進黨當然我們思維是不一樣我知道你寫很多立法院教科書但是我記得這個內閣委員第一次問你的時候之前先問你說你就看我的書就好了你應該勇於發言勇於堅韓為你的然後韓為"},{"start":27319.819,"end":27326.392,"text":"應該捍衛你的理想。諸如此類,但是要若若切實若實。"},{"start":27329.707,"end":27345.573,"text":"我剛才跟你講那反正七三五四就是我們倆衝突最厲害的時候但是我也很懷念你過去當秘書長的時候在立法院複密的時候在南市議議事處署長的時候我們兩個常常有爭辯但是我們兩個爭辯我叫黃國昌最正的"},{"start":27351.135,"end":27373.713,"text":"我們是在法律上面有不能看法,因為你不要保守,是不要認,而且假設也必須如此。因為一共五萬嘛。草案協商有紀錄有參加七百場以上。法案我自己看過照常經過至少五千個案子以上。"},{"start":27375.852,"end":27400.958,"text":"當黨團總召,每一個案子我都會看。所以,通常講一句話,衝突在社會起在立法院。那你一改革,變成一個社會議題的,到立法院來,最後還是我要代表民進黨黨團去捍衛、去爭辯。那我不認為,在這個地方,你一直好像很有道理在一直論辯這個事情。"},{"start":27402.938,"end":27420.705,"text":"所以組織法,我是說空間也是組織改善的。空間也是組織改善的。那這有何不可?有違憲嗎?對不對?那就不必,真的要違憲的時候,等一下我希望能開完的時候,好去登場,立法院直接刑處啊。"},{"start":27424.674,"end":27442.564,"text":"總統來做國運報告可以集中離黨,沒有修正可以嗎?你永遠都講不清楚。那我都能提醒一下,我們兩個人一輩子在立法院,那是角色立場不同。我相信我們不是要對立的,我跟黃昌是不客氣的。"},{"start":27447.044,"end":27450.491,"text":"希望大家可以聯繫立法院的侯志遠等等。"},{"start":27453.753,"end":27475.811,"text":"論投你在這方面的努力以及貢獻,然時並不是你講的沒錯,都對。你要了解,另外一個主體是立法院,不是民主黨你回來會去推動,這個不會改革,不會改革,不是你一個人推動得了,大家一起來的。"},{"start":27477.032,"end":27501.682,"text":"至於謝文雄議員剛才講的,這沒有規劃、沒有選址、沒有一個很好的規劃,可依應評估的話,依算如何拼。所以我們今天是理性的。我們是理性的。那當然我希望新的院長來。我也跟韓院長講一句話,我們是同班同學。"},{"start":27503.007,"end":27530.924,"text":"三十年前我們同時進了立法院,三屆同學我當總召不會變成總統,到頂了你當立法院院長也應該到頂,讓共同好做些事情我是這樣的必須這樣非常勉勵我希望接下去立法院執行刑事法以能夠大聲講出憲政理論所以我一直講說一定要有公法學者嘛我們不是一個法將"},{"start":27532.588,"end":27549.206,"text":"我們不需要培養一個法將,我們要培養一個有視野的立法工作者。同時我們也希望議團中心法治局也是要有一個時代轉變的新的喉水進來才對。"},{"start":27551.135,"end":27571.214,"text":"好,謝謝我們柯總召。這樣好不好?因為時間的關係,我想也要讓他有一點時間休息去解決生理上的需求。那是不是我們本案,我就做這樣的一個宣告。那第五條剛暫保留,那是不是剛剛的處理方式,我們就已送政黨協商。"},{"start":27572.495,"end":27601.433,"text":"那第十五條因為本來有一個修正動議那因為牽涉到其他為草案在位涵蓋的條文我們就不予處理那第十五條就送草野協商正黨協商然後呢徵訂第三十條、三十三條之三我們也是送政黨協商好所以最後呢我們民進黨黨團擬具立法院組織法部分條文修正草案等四案"},{"start":27602.486,"end":27606.647,"text":"逐條均已處理完畢。做以下宣告一、全案審查完畢並按擬具審查報告提請原委公決。本案須交由黨團協商。"},{"start":27627.813,"end":27656.368,"text":"那院會討論時由召集委員嘉賓出席說明那另外條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理請問我們在場委員是否同意沒問題那我們就這樣做本案審訊的宣告好那現在時間我們休息五分鐘報告不夠大家去使用趕快我們休息五分鐘謝謝"},{"start":27979.551,"end":28006.577,"text":"好繼續開會那麼因為第一案已經審峻那麼與第一案已經審峻所以跟第一案只跟第一案相關的列席的人員可以先行離開那麼我們接下來進行討論事項第二案繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案等三案那我們是不是就開始進行好"},{"start":28008.12,"end":28034.95,"text":"那我們就是直接比照地案的方式行為法民進黨團擬具的立法委員行為法第七條追及第三十條條文修正草等三案那我們就是不是比照地案的方式我們就直接進行逐條審查那可以的話那我們就進行來請你不就坐著講就好了"},{"start":28042.546,"end":28045.729,"text":"有臨時提案喔?好吧你先提案說明啦 但是他是臨時提案啦沒關係啦"},{"start":28054.377,"end":28080.988,"text":"剛剛接下來我們就是要進到民進黨的深水區包括行為法包括國會改革所有的案子本席是建議就是因為之前國民黨版的這個國會改革的法案其實社會大眾有很多的討論那這些討論也都是民進黨促成的因為民進黨之前我們在提案就開始要審查的時候就認為說要有充足的討論"},{"start":28082.088,"end":28097.877,"text":"那包括就我們中憲召委就特別安排一場專報然後我們也安排一場公聽會讓大家來檢視國民黨的一個國會改革的提案版本那到底有哪些地方聽聽社會大眾的意見"},{"start":28098.837,"end":28099.057,"text":"國民黨版國會改革法案"},{"start":28117.954,"end":28137.211,"text":"因此中間中交兵召委就可以召開兩次針對國民黨版的國會改革法案的兩場公聽會所以我覺得這個民進黨版的國會改革法案其實我個人當然有很多的疑慮但是我想這些疑慮如果只是在今天這邊這麼倉促的"},{"start":28138.912,"end":28159.348,"text":"做逐條的討論,可能我覺得不足以讓社會大眾瞭解到底民進黨的版本跟現在社會大眾的期待落差是什麼,特別是跟2016年的版本的落差是什麼所以我這邊特別跟提案就是說,鑒於國會改革法案對我國憲政運作至關重要"},{"start":28160.109,"end":28181.996,"text":"目前通過之臺灣民眾黨黨團副坤祺委員等版本皆經過三次公聽會審議一次專案報告所以審議民進黨黨團所提出的立法院職權行使法部分條文修正案那再加上我這邊再把補上那個關於給我一個筆好了還有那個借我一次筆"},{"start":28182.981,"end":28200.656,"text":"還有包括立法委員行為法等相關的一些修正草案那應比照讓社會充分審議討論所以進行三次公聽會跟一次專案報告後我們再來逐條審查是否有當然再進行公決容我再加一句話"},{"start":28206.994,"end":28210.075,"text":"議員主席賴瑞隆為何要這樣生動站起來整個國會改革從上禮拜一開始到現在今天還勉強可以進入主條討論"},{"start":28235.68,"end":28256.778,"text":"當然是在上一次的時候也是同樣的案子是被沒收的當然我們黨有作為調整我們是可以歡迎的那是從開始國會改善禮拜一武中縣委員所提的開張當召委"},{"start":28258.064,"end":28283.38,"text":"事實上大家都知道這裡面有一個非常愚笨的楊某這個非常愚笨的楊某是什麼?那大家都很清楚也就是說昨天朱委員有講到這個520以後先請賴總統來做國情報告及問及答他是這樣的楊某所以他以為會開怪車"},{"start":28285.601,"end":28303.394,"text":"所以在上禮拜一的時候,在先前的時候就要開始處理,我們要有公聽會,後來改為半天公聽會,到另外半天完畢就4月3號那一天,下午就要開始審查。"},{"start":28304.615,"end":28328.812,"text":"剛好發生花蓮大地震,婦孕期也走了。所以這樣的時空,這上帝的意旨讓這個我們能夠國會改革能夠走到今天。但是呢接下來吳宗森委員只開在我們今天底下只開一次公聽會,沒有辦法涵蓋所有題目。所以下來了輪圖召委換誰?換鍾小平委員,他開了兩次公聽會。"},{"start":28333.815,"end":28352.611,"text":"我們希望就是說,本來國會改革,過去在2016的時候,你們常常講民進黨的版本,因為那版本常常講沒有共識,所以我們就不用了。但是呢,有共識的部分也改很多,包括立法院組織法。"},{"start":28354.333,"end":28380.514,"text":"議員長必須推出政黨、議員長必須議事中立、直播等等,不是沒有改。那最主要噴出到最核心的問題就是大法院五八四次有關於國會調查權的問題。那個是當年三一所政調會我提的,而且引起人們到縣法庭辯論。這是20年前的事情。主要今天再回頭噴到當然是國會調查權的問題。"},{"start":28383.357,"end":28400.736,"text":"那可是呢國民黨在國外改革版本裡面無限制扣錢違憲所以我問說法治局敢寫出來他真正版本抽取的地方在什麼地方當然要有一些公法學者、憲法學者"},{"start":28402.339,"end":28429.121,"text":"這是國會運政品質上應很重要的所以國民黨的揚謀很清楚嘛那吳宗森15號組織的時候我們就說差一天我們就可以憑良審查但是傅文綺委員和黃國昌委員各只有一腳前後壓陣開派車那吳宗森委員也很無奈我說不應該如此有你去我們總召供啦這我國語人嘛 也不能說國語人"},{"start":28432.143,"end":28454.369,"text":"那所以我們看到那天4月15號當天是什麼場景?這場景當然就是一路壓下去嘛。他要怎麼?他計算520嘛。他計算說4月15號出委員會,最快的時候是怎麼講?5月17號那天禮拜五嘛。因為可以表決。然後接下去就要總統來做國情報告、基本局長。這違憲嘛。"},{"start":28459.83,"end":28488.729,"text":"朱雲昨天也再次講過一次,國民黨中常委也再次講過一次但是我們的回答,包括賴總統回答一定要合憲底下當然合憲底下做什麼事情都沒有問題你又可以用刑法141條於被執行的時候只要稀有陳述名是國會之嫌罪罪刑法所以說總統都可能被抓讓卸任以後再進行偵辦這過程大家很清楚"},{"start":28490.13,"end":28518.051,"text":"這是一個非常疑問的揚駁那今天假裝在這裡跟我們細語為舌好像這個最不重要的事情讓你來討論但是呢各位今天以後各位今天以後大家都知道這個列車已經開往5月17號因為要表決了所以我建議先建議今天的委員會開會到晚上12點"},{"start":28519.6,"end":28534.463,"text":"事於開公認會,坦白講,我們主張要開公認會,主張公認會。但在這個時空滾滾壓縮底下,這些政治洋謀底下,你今天講說要開公認會,市場是一個反兵之計啦。"},{"start":28535.524,"end":28559.247,"text":"本來看起來很有理由,那為什麼你們只有開半天公聽會,不是剩下明天再補兩天?過去國會改革只有一年多,那時候只有一年多,通過部分條文,有些條文我們覺得不妥,雖然國會有多數,我們也不敢通過。那要講道理講清楚嘛,那人家開公聽會可以,"},{"start":28561.569,"end":28574.108,"text":"今天出委員會以後,在月月表決前本來還可以開公認會各位看到,農村再生條例,農田水域會出法,出委會還可以開公認會"},{"start":28576.067,"end":28596.81,"text":"所以你不要用這樣開通聽會之詞想要以子之矛攻子之盾不可得也我想一頭二手不錯但是不夠聰明啦那這個楊博大家看得很清楚嘛你就這個時候把他們所有法案全部打掉了不能並案審查嘛"},{"start":28598.285,"end":28602.749,"text":"委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":28614.478,"end":28618.742,"text":"新的院長兩個禮拜內要來立法院被尋三天以前要送聲明報告你要叫賴總統先來請問這有何興趣嗎我在這裡講了很多次"},{"start":28632.974,"end":28658.891,"text":"這立法院負責是行政、國家最大行政機關你可以來背行它我們有執行之前你對於行政部門的不滿可以提出新的案讓它國會全部來改選但是今天我們知道副總理很安心的派你們去合作要給我們隔啊好像因為很民主的樣子那禮拜一的情況是完全沒有在委員會"},{"start":28660.213,"end":28664.084,"text":"現在的國會是忽然間黃國昌講了算了"},{"start":28667.205,"end":28689.545,"text":"所以我在這裏告訴羅委員、羅志強,你揚某未免太揚某,是一個非常愚笨的揚某。我們今天先開會到晚點12點,大家先吐一口嘛,不然早上一點,明天早上也是又凍完。過去我剛才有講過,我第二天進來的時候都睡在地板上面,"},{"start":28690.766,"end":28715.285,"text":"在視頻的空間裏面在地板上面我們是這樣一路走過來的我們要對於意思負責所以我建議所謂開公共會沒有關係除了委員會表決前還可以開公共會很多上次那個農林手藝會是電子活動組織公共會這立法院對我所案例所以希望不用太"},{"start":28717.185,"end":28718.206,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具"},{"start":28732.827,"end":28761.02,"text":"好,謝謝主席。針對羅志強委員提的這個提案我也發表一下我的意見。剛剛柯建民總召說羅志強委員是ㄎㄧㄤ,我看起來不是ㄎㄧㄤ,是ㄎㄧㄤ,你知道嗎?羅委員不好意思,我很尊敬您,但是看看您的臨時提案的內容是這樣寫的。本委員會委員羅志強等人,就是在場的國民黨籍的委員們,鑒於國會改革法案對我國憲政運作至關重要。好,到這裡都對。"},{"start":28762.521,"end":28765.807,"text":"日前通過之臺灣民眾黨黨團副坤祺委員等版本皆經過三場公聽會審議,還有一次專案報告。"},{"start":28773.203,"end":28799.255,"text":"顧審理民主進步黨黨團所提的立法院職權稀釋法部分條文修正草案一應比照然後立法委員行為法民進黨版也一應比照來交開公聽會讓社會充分審議討論所以羅志強委員提案說至少要再舉行三次的公聽會及一次的專案報告才能夠進行逐條審查羅志強委員您的這個提案啊就是示範了什麼叫做藐視國會你知道嗎"},{"start":28801.485,"end":28821.138,"text":"因為你這個提案的內容都是虛偽不實之陳述啊我們委員會針對國會改革在這一屆交開三場的公聽會一場是吳宗憲交委交開的兩場是由鍾嘉斌委員交開的時間分別是4月3號、4月10號跟4月11號"},{"start":28825.49,"end":28843.465,"text":"錄委員您可能貴人多忘事,如果您有來參與公聽會您當可以記得在眾嘉賓委員所排定的議程公聽會的提供跟範圍就廣納的含闊了民進黨版的所有條文的內涵。"},{"start":28844.506,"end":28862.861,"text":"所以您的這個臨時提案就是虛偽不實之陳述啊您居然說之前的三場公聽會都是針對臺灣民眾黨黨團跟副官級委員的版本好像三場公聽會都是國民黨排的 不是好像三場公聽會都只是討論國民黨的版本 不是錯 錯 錯"},{"start":28865.703,"end":28879.914,"text":"三個大錯。」所以這個就是藐視國會嘛這個就是虛偽不實之陳述嘛所以我在這裡要講清楚就是過去的三場公聽會含括了包括民進黨的版本送案今天可以看議事文書上面的時間"},{"start":28881.275,"end":28907.984,"text":"都是落在我們公聽會之前就已經送案的所以在我們的中嘉賓交委安排的兩場公聽會裡頭討論的內容都含括了民進黨的持權行使法、民進黨的行為法、民進黨的立院組織法等等所以呢羅志強委員提這個提案不過是又想要終止今天的討論因為你想要說再召開三場公聽會外加一個專案報告才能夠進行民進黨版的"},{"start":28910.825,"end":28934.099,"text":"主條討論,再一次又試圖的想要用不同的議事程序來卡關民進黨的版本,來沒收民進黨版本被審查的權利,就再一次又是國民黨團復雜斑斑的想要拖延,不敢面對、不敢審查民進黨版的政治陽謀。"},{"start":28935.18,"end":28958.175,"text":"就如此而已啦所以羅委員您這個提案要不要回去再重寫一次因為完全都是虛偽不實之陳述喔然後呢未來如果還有機會這個會期末都還有時間召開任何國會改革的公聽會我們絕對非常支持就如同剛剛講的國會要不要擴建要不要簽件我們可以擴大的找"},{"start":28959.176,"end":28980.495,"text":"在游錫堃院長任內找了21位學者專家包括都市計畫領域包括建築領域包括景觀設計領域包括公民團體的代表包括法政學者的代表等等大家針對國會新時代的進步國會的建築應當是什麼好好來進行空間改革的公定會我舉雙手雙腳都贊成"},{"start":28982.657,"end":28993.112,"text":"所以,不要再用這樣的臨時提案想要來拖延民進黨條文的審議。這不是拖啦,這是拱啦,抱歉。好不好,謝謝。好,現在請那個羅志強委員,請。"},{"start":29003.882,"end":29026.413,"text":"這個柯總召一個說我聰明吳士耀一個說我笨那我也不知道我是聰明還是笨但我的聰明還是笨不重要啦其實我跟各位說總召不用擔心啦基本上提這一個是要提醒大家其實國民黨在排審我們的國會改革法案當中民進黨就一直說討論不夠嘛"},{"start":29028.254,"end":29041.889,"text":"那其實我們的吳宗憲召委就非常有風度啊既然討論不夠就排一場專案報告然後呢 排一場專案報告也覺得不夠啊排一場公聽會也覺得不夠啊所以吳宗憲委就直接就聯會兩個禮拜來審查討論"},{"start":29045.151,"end":29048.697,"text":"兩場公聽會是中嘉賓召委辦的,我可沒有去略中嘉賓召委之功"},{"start":29060.3,"end":29085.441,"text":"三場公聽會我沒說誰辦的啊我只說經過三場公聽會啊我說經過三場公聽會啊我在剛說明的時候好沒關係這一點齁這樣子啦剛宗嘉斌召委跟吳世耀委喂我從善如流欸世耀委員好從善如流我們待會做文字修正齁我們待會就把這個三場公聽會一場是吳宗憲召委辦的兩場是宗嘉斌召委辦的齁"},{"start":29086.562,"end":29089.005,"text":"三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件 。"},{"start":29106.345,"end":29120.399,"text":"關阿虎,我特別強調一場是吳宗憲辦,兩場宗嘉賓辦的。那希望如果加了關阿虎以後,我們的民進黨朋友們就能夠支持。可是我回頭還是要講一個真正的一個用意。其實到底很簡單嘛。"},{"start":29122.06,"end":29124.503,"text":"因此在很多的學者專家討論公聽會的時候其實都是以國民黨版的國會改革在討論嘛"},{"start":29138.536,"end":29138.696,"text":"案件,而民進黨團擬具"},{"start":29161.479,"end":29168.109,"text":"三）委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案件及法制委員會及立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件及立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件及立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":29177.663,"end":29196.697,"text":"所以今天就是想特別去效法民進黨當時建議吳宗憲召委,多開公聽會,多討論然後讓民進黨的版本可以更加的傾聽社會大眾的聲音,更加的完備那至於到底要在什麼程序之下進行,其實民進黨我覺得朋友也不用擔心,為什麼呢當然會延宕個兩個禮拜啦,這個會延宕啦"},{"start":29201.5,"end":29201.82,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":29230.01,"end":29235.533,"text":"在場的民進黨的委員能夠支持。謝謝。主席。各位同仁。這個我想現在這樣子的議事工坊這個大家目的是什麼其實都很清楚了。"},{"start":29260.049,"end":29285.303,"text":"在這邊講的我們在講的什麼滿口仁義道德怎麼都知道目的彼此的目的是什麼但是我想我們這個要通過的提案我想還是要講道理還是要講道理這個剛才一再爭執的並不是說公聽會是誰辦的不是而是公聽會是針對國民黨跟民眾黨版本辦的還是公聽會是針對國會改革全部議題辦的這個才是事實"},{"start":29291.834,"end":29314.75,"text":"這三場公聽會我想去把這個公聽會的紀錄都調出來這很簡單嘛這公聽會又不是秘密召開又不是沒有又不是不留文只能新傳不留文字的這個公聽會當時的議題其實都包含了民進黨今天版本的議題嘛包括這個附中的考察包括秘密的會議那個都是公聽會的主題啊所以事實上公聽會三場"},{"start":29316.54,"end":29333.988,"text":"論委員所要求的公聽會三場事實上是已經辦過了這當時並沒有針對哪一個黨的版本來辦公聽會不是當時是針對國會改革議題也就包括我們今天現在如果順利可以進入審查的這些議題都辦過三場公聽會了這是第一點第二點"},{"start":29335.559,"end":29356.836,"text":"這個提案這整個跟當時我們民進黨的訴求其實是同樣的一個問題就是當時我們一直要求說不要排禮拜一你如果排禮拜三就可以大家並案一起討論了但是我們吳宗憲、昭偉那時候就堅持一定要禮拜一目的其實也不是吳宗憲、昭偉壞心了也不是啦那黨團的壓力之下"},{"start":29358.135,"end":29384.495,"text":"復婚期的壓力之下就是不要讓民進黨的版本進入討論這個就是從頭到尾到今天這個臨時提案還是同樣的意思就是不要讓民進黨的版本進入實質討論那這樣子其實對國民黨我個人就覺得說在國會上面的互動上面這樣的方式是很不健康的因為你最後即使一起版本讓民進黨一起進入討論一起協商國民黨還是多數嘛"},{"start":29385.563,"end":29409.442,"text":"你協商是最後真的協商不出結論來院會表決國民黨還是多數阿你們跟你們的小藍民進黨加起來還是多數阿為什麼要在這樣子的討論過程技術上面去阻擋其他政黨的案子納入一併討論這個是我個人在這裡我個人最不能接受當然制度上面你們人多你們要怎麼都責任阿但是"},{"start":29413.702,"end":29419.344,"text":"國會的討論、國會的改革有必要這樣子用政黨的立場來讓一個案子連討論的機會都沒有嗎?這個是我要在這裡就針對再來大家提到說好像這個國民之前的版本辦三場公聽會辦了一場之後還讓民進黨再辦兩場,錯了"},{"start":29435.151,"end":29456.858,"text":"那一天其實那一天本來的議程下午就要碾壓過去了這個我們吳宗憲召委在場那最清楚但是天意如此發生了大地震我們的國民黨的總指揮傅坤祺必須坐直升機回去花蓮沒有辦法在場指揮所以趕快把他延後再延後才有機會讓民進黨再開兩場公聽會這個就是事實"},{"start":29461.874,"end":29477.318,"text":"那我在這裡還是希望說我們這個司法法制委員會尤其是針對國會改革這樣子的議題每一個政黨大家都對台灣社會負有責任我是希望說這個國民黨既然作為一個多數黨應該要有這種氣度讓所有少數黨的這些我們的提案都能夠一併進入協商一併進入討論以上"},{"start":29487.368,"end":29507.453,"text":"主席這邊因為有省委員要報告要發言我先請大家發言前看一下因為還是要把事實說清楚這個是4月3號輪值召委吳宗憲召委員他所辦的公聽會所有的公聽會所含設的送委員會審查法案都在這裡面"},{"start":29508.593,"end":29531.697,"text":"那這是4月10號本席所召開的公聽會4月11號本席所開的公聽會那這兩個公聽會題目的範圍跟他所附的會議資料的範圍那都在今天我們委員會審查的法案在內那其中那時候包括今天的議案的編號一之二"},{"start":29532.239,"end":29543.113,"text":"之三以及編號二之二之三編號三之二這些法案包括所謂的組織法、行為法跟議事規則當時的公聽會已經就這些三個法"},{"start":29548.16,"end":29565.396,"text":"的副委員會審查過副議席的內容進行討論。」所以呢,宮廷會的來的學者專家也充分的就我們這些送到委員會待審的法案,不只是立法院職員刑事法,還包括立法院組織法,包括立法院"},{"start":29565.996,"end":29587.097,"text":"委員行為法以及議事規則都已經開始進行公聽會。所以倫茲召委本席所辦的4月10日及4月11日的兩場公聽會已經就今天法案審查包括我們剛剛已經審訊的第一個討論事項關於立法院組織法當中關於秘密會議的部分"},{"start":29588.057,"end":29604.864,"text":"關於我們這個資訊安全的加強的部分都已經有討論了我想在這裡做一個說明那接下來我們請那個省委員玩了我們柯總召那個待會我還會再講先確認一下民進黨團的那個版本4月3號提的嘛對不對"},{"start":29606.223,"end":29606.543,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":29629.568,"end":29631.609,"text":"我迅速釐清因為我覺得開公聽會本來就是算很重要的事情"},{"start":29645.015,"end":29662.274,"text":"但我也提到這個公聽會但是非常重要的一點是在於說因為目前有總共三場的公聽會這個3號、10號跟11號那它所針對的主題最主要其實就是在講國會調查跟藐視國會這一些相關的事情那很明顯的從新聞大家也可以知道"},{"start":29663.434,"end":29687.688,"text":"這個三黨在這邊的角力還有大家的意見其實非常多的所以這也是為什麼當時需要召開公聽會的原因但因為公聽會就已經就是在釐清這些事所以如果再一次的再去召開公聽會那就只不過是根據又是那一些專家學者一樣的事情又要再發表一次意見我舉個很簡單的例子比如說我們今天開個公聽會討論到底羅志祥委員要不要去桃園比如說這個樣子"},{"start":29688.609,"end":29689.029,"text":"條文修正草案"},{"start":29705.063,"end":29732.152,"text":"然後呢如果說今天真的要召開公聽會我們剛剛不是討論資安嗎其實如果資安大家很有疑慮的話那也應該要來討論嘛但是因為剛剛很明顯在討論的過程就可以發現其實目前因為今天這個民進黨不在齁兩黨對於資訊安全要保護完全沒有意見都認為這是重要的那只是到底細部到底要設置在資訊處下面呢還是要把它分開呢等等之類做討論所以因此這件事情我們沒有召開公聽會嘛"},{"start":29733.132,"end":29746.711,"text":"然後呢像我們今天像剛剛這個羅委員提到的譬如說這個行為法行為法裡面最重要的民進黨版本提的是泄密相關的規定啊有人放在組織法有人把它放在行為法啊像呢也有人把它放在議事規則但無論如何"},{"start":29749.014,"end":29770.227,"text":"我相信在座的應該沒有人會對於洩密這件事情有任何的意見應該大家都認為說沒有錯其實我們不應該洩漏秘密但是因為我們原本洩漏秘密規定的這個內容太簡略了因為洩漏秘密的方式太多了所以在這一次的版本裡面我們把各式各樣的行為太樣放進去然後就可以在主條的時候兩邊一起討論"},{"start":29772.708,"end":29797.95,"text":"所以這個時候如果針對這個要來開一個公聽會我告訴大家不管來幾個專家學者每一個都會跟你講說對 這個泄密的確是應該要規範那這樣開公聽會的意義就失去了但如果今天是要討論原本的調查權、調閱權的範圍、聽證的範圍這個各黨的歧義非常的大我們其實公聽會最主要討論的就是到底調查的範圍要有多大"},{"start":29798.57,"end":29826.12,"text":"不只是說今天是到底要針對官員還是要針對私人那麼簡單的問題而已還包含在藐視國會到底是要針對質詢還是要針對調查還是調閱也要放進去這個完全沒有共識所以這個時候我們之所以會提出這個版本我還是要再度的回應不要一直說2016年什麼民進黨已經提出了版本民進黨今天提出的版本最重要的就是因為國民黨提出的版本沒有邊界"},{"start":29826.9,"end":29854.282,"text":"他的邊界不確定所以就會變成什麼都變成調查調閱的範圍什麼都可以變成藐視國會所以我們只好提出一個版本去把它的範圍要怎麼限縮把它寫在45條之一而這個要怎麼限縮這件事情不就是這幾場公聽會一直在討論的嗎所以如果要重複再辦這樣的公聽會事實上是沒有什麼意義的事但如果譬如說我知道可能國民黨對於性騷這個部分是很有意見的"},{"start":29855.023,"end":29855.523,"text":"條文修正草案"},{"start":29884.397,"end":29885.318,"text":"司馬昭之心路人皆知"},{"start":29899.506,"end":29927.109,"text":"國民黨先畫寶在社間他agenda已經鋪陣好了整個政治佈局和兩岸之間的之間完全就是在520以前要如何來配合中國來造成我們憲政衝突來擾亂台灣這叫假宮廷會之名行莫說之實"},{"start":29928.51,"end":29928.81,"text":"一﹐一﹐一﹐一﹐一﹐一﹐一﹐"},{"start":29951.587,"end":29978.689,"text":"行政院長必須五個禮後兩個禮拜內要來立法院你又設計一個總統先來但總統很清楚只要核信他都來你又設計一個藐視國會罪然後來的時候要急問急答要順便答覆那有藐視國會之前要有刑責之後檢查沒這回事"},{"start":29980.256,"end":30007.343,"text":"國務黨吼,民眾就是討論很好。昨天有以前立法院的前輩,不是前輩,他有同意進來,沈穆雄。民眾國務黨有三傻。這樣的搞法,馬英九訪中,然後有,有要到太平島去,然後傅文綺、右港、烏文羅在發言地震,這個時候還要再去大陸。"},{"start":30009.022,"end":30024.258,"text":"這是數值嗎?還是精訊嗎?這大家都看不懂啦。這什麼想說馬英九、朱立倫以及潘石居會把國民黨毀掉。2126選舉選票一定會反撲的。"},{"start":30028.982,"end":30048.267,"text":"所以今天要在這裡告訴國民黨委員你這個是我講過昨天程序委員會開始擋案了過去馬來西亞時期擋了一半多次你也像程序委員浪花沈柏洋委員的兩人民關係條例一擋下來"},{"start":30052.051,"end":30079.977,"text":"然後呢委員會還給你沒收讓你清楚禮拜一就活生生演出來嘛你馬上給你散會就是今天這幾個法但是呢你今天演的是什麼有柔性政變我們都知道這是柔性沒收嘛只是變招而已啦就那大廠大家都敢看不見要公開開國內可以啊我剛才講的啦"},{"start":30081.365,"end":30100.704,"text":"出委員會以後,表決前還可以開工地會啊。你為什麼要先開工地會?就阻擋民進黨的國會改革的版本的進度嘛。到時候的議會只有你們的版本嘛,趕快就把表決過去嘛。各位,我們民進黨以前國會都說的時候,全部照民進黨程序來。"},{"start":30102.236,"end":30129.486,"text":"如果第一點你一直在講二零一六我們二零一六弄到兩年之後到二零一八的時候才通過幾個版本開了多好事公認會即便我們在都是執政的時候到一零零一會這樣一路蓋牌一路輾壓超越鄉的時候就是進行表決到A會的時候民進黨發言你麻煩沒收發言一路沒收嘛"},{"start":30131.058,"end":30140.624,"text":"2016民進黨國會多數的時候,這場案子叫什麼?叫不當黨產。經過委員會以後到院會,是讓國民黨每一根燈泣發音到飽。2017、2017的時候,蘇貞昌新生意條例也是在院會裡面發音陰停,最後才表決。這些都是有歷史的驗證。2018民進黨水域會也是如此。"},{"start":30161.474,"end":30167.4,"text":"所以立法院是一個論證的場所是一個是一個整個國家論證中心"},{"start":30170.79,"end":30194.286,"text":"想要讓國會都是暴力然後領壓過一切一定適得其反所以在這裡告訴國民黨委員我們知道你們已經agenda已經弄好了5月11日就要表決了最好民進黨版本都不要進來只有你們版本你們版本在國會裡面也不能討論沒說討論沒說發言沒說提案說明"},{"start":30199.369,"end":30216.856,"text":"今天假裝在這裡好像很民主的樣子,實質上你要實行柔性的沒收。司法責事心,大家都看得到啦。你沒有,還不夠聰明。這個叫做聰明反被聰明誤啦。昨天不是出來講話嗎?讓賴總統先來再來。造成這種宣稱衝突是幹什麼?然後這樣對國會有用嗎?這是我們要的國會嗎?"},{"start":30229.235,"end":30252.803,"text":"你如果將來馬上委員大要怎麼安排兩個職群總統是對立法院負責嗎是行政隊的立法院負責所以各位我一直在講包括我們的法治中心也要有法治學者、憲法學者你要有歷史之筆敢於勇於"},{"start":30254.802,"end":30279.374,"text":"寫下你們的評估報告。我這個話,這種立法院已經是可以說立法院完成論證的機會都沒有。這是國會的婉歌啊。國會根本就國會都是包圍就好啦,按表去就好啦。是這樣啊。紅毛常常不是很喜歡辯論嗎?他現在怎麼為什麼變成"},{"start":30281.955,"end":30305.114,"text":"民進黨要成為國民黨付費組織、要綏護、要衛武作倉。這個歷史會看到這裡,你敢吃是這樣轉吃會假,吞不下去。各位,這次只有知道衝突嘛,這有什麼好處?選民要站在你們那邊嗎?所以,難道說我沒有出改喆好不好?"},{"start":30306.616,"end":30324.993,"text":"好 那麼主席在這裡進行處理那麼因為根據立法院議事規則第二章委員提案第九條的規定出席委員提出臨時提案以及待解決事項為限應於當事會議上午實施前以書面提出"},{"start":30325.782,"end":30343.365,"text":"那因為本委員的慣例我們都是在因為這是全院的部分那我們都是在11點之前由委員三人聯署就可以提出那現在已過上午11時那因為剛剛委員羅委員的提案我想大家也充分的表達讓大家知道"},{"start":30343.846,"end":30367.219,"text":"那也讓主席在這裡有機會說明我們前三次的公聽會所含涉的範圍包括第一次由吳釗偉所主持的以及後面10月10號及4月11號由本席所召開的公聽會事實上已含涉了今天所要審查討論的四項這四個討論案的內容那是不是我就請大家我們繼續的"},{"start":30368.26,"end":30388.301,"text":"案,因為我們現在是5點01分,那已經多耗了40分鐘的時間,那不曉得剛剛柯總召是認為說我們今天的時間寶貴,我們繼續審查。當然,合理的議事的攻防討論我們都贊成,目的是什麼?就像有人說要提出三位動議是要拖延,讓這個委員會不能夠盡快的把"},{"start":30392.06,"end":30420.011,"text":"議案送交出去。那麼今天我們不急,我們五點半之前還有29分鐘時間,那如果大家覺得這個提案討論下去很有意義,那我們本期會再去處理言會動議。那現在我們繼續進行民進黨團擬具立法委員行為法第七條第一之一及第三十條條文的條文。那我們現在我徵詢我們委員...主席如果你這樣不尊重我的話,我告訴你你是由你發動讓會議開不下去喔!"},{"start":30422.132,"end":30435.616,"text":"榮委員,那意思是...你要不尊重我的發言,為什麼到那邊就結束了?我不能講話?不是,因為...登記程序發言啊,你登記會議詢問啊我講過了啊你如果要這樣子主持議事的話我告訴你為什麼由你決定,你們講完就要充分發言,我們不能再繼續講"},{"start":30443.544,"end":30449.007,"text":"我們會再繼續講來來來我的好那個現在因為齁這個提案其實在會議規範上齁會議規則上我們就是說因為不符上午11點嘛我已經說明了那如果各位還因為我們本來是在一個繼續討論啊討論的過程當中那我們剛剛呢我們也沒有用權益問題也沒有會議詢問也沒有程序問題主席就是就提案本身"},{"start":30467.778,"end":30481.976,"text":"當作是讓大家那我就提權益問題阿你為什麼可以阻擋我們阿那你現在如果要做權益問題我講一下權益問題好請發言我先提個案阿你大家要不要提要再講再慢慢講沒有關係現在隱藏開會時間到今天晚上12點他就提阿這是那個"},{"start":30485.88,"end":30490.426,"text":"這是程序問題,這個不是剛剛的臨時提案。你今天早上並沒有宣告說今天的臨時提案到11點。"},{"start":30505.203,"end":30524.311,"text":"三）委員高金素梅等23人擬具、「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案案案件 、三）委員高金素梅等23人擬具、「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件 、三）委員高金素梅等23人擬具、「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件 、三）委員高金素梅等23人擬具、「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件 、三）委員高金素梅等23人擬具、「立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案案件 、三）委員高金素梅等23人擬"},{"start":30534.648,"end":30539.151,"text":"案,因此,抱歉,若照主席這種做法的話,我們也只能提出商會動議,我們要告訴你今天實際上,抱歉,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,"},{"start":30560.123,"end":30563.025,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":30587.748,"end":30597.757,"text":"那個...好,三位董事長,針對本日會議,4月25日議程,建請依立法院議事規則第25條、57條規定,提議三位事為有當,敬請公決。現在我們開始處理。"},{"start":30613.291,"end":30620.39,"text":"沒關係阿民進黨反正今天你不處理所謂的處理公聽會的事情那就等下次再來處理阿"},{"start":30623.769,"end":30624.31,"text":"主席主席先讓我講話"},{"start":30646.953,"end":30659.838,"text":"主席,剛剛你已經宣布處理有人提出上會動議了嘛,如果說你沒有處理到這邊,那就可以讓他宣布。主席,你現在處理上會動議,你把提案的類別寫錯了。主席已經宣告了欸,怎麼會現在又變成這樣。"},{"start":30670.1,"end":30681.05,"text":"主席不處理臨時題要求三會主席跟賴主席都說要處理三會都議嘛那我們接下來是不是要清點人數那個我們先清點人數清點人數的過程齁我説明一下齁剛剛在場的動議"},{"start":30686.434,"end":30709.108,"text":"今天有一個臨時提案那因為我們剛剛的會議秩序已經進入到討論事項進入到討論事項已過臨時提案的時間但是由於羅委員的提案是涉及到討論事項當中是否大家要再斟酌有沒有要再召開空聽會那主席讓各位充分發言也不是程序問題也不是會議詢問也不是權益問題"},{"start":30711.229,"end":30740.175,"text":"那目前呢因為一致規則我們沒辦法處理臨時提案如果羅委員用別的方式提出我們就可以處理那現在有一個在場的三位動議最優先不經討論進行表決那現在呢我們採用舉手表決表決前先清點在場出席人數在場出席委員9人現在開始表決贊成者請舉手好贊成者5人請放下反對者請舉手"},{"start":30741.328,"end":30763.167,"text":"反對者4人,請放下,現在宣告表決結果。表決結果,在場出席委員9人,不含主席,贊成者5人,反對者4人,三位動議,贊成者多數通過。那主席在這裡本次會議進行到此啊,那討論事項,所列議案及位級處理部分,"},{"start":30764.067,"end":30791.627,"text":"軍令定期繼續審查。那麼本席在這裡呢要很遺憾的說我們今天的討論本來可以希望在時間將近嘛5點半之前有效率的進行討論。那麼我們現在這個散會動議。議長民進黨靠來動議會啦。羅志祥委員你剛剛提案就提錯了。臨時提案不是現在提的。沒關係沒關係話都你們講。對不對。你就意識規則搞不清楚你提案提錯了。現在在那邊更小東西有去。"},{"start":30792.808,"end":30793.468,"text":"立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}