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您們現在有掌握各委員會審議預算的進度嗎?"},{"start":39.326,"end":42.414,"text":"是,那我請問立法院有沒有在擋預算?"},{"start":44.738,"end":72.519,"text":"沒有嘛齁好那這個訊息要讓外界全部都知道其實過去10年以來我們大概在年度12月31號審完預算大概只有3年就是7年度101年度跟105年度完成刪讀大部分都是過完國立年後立法院才陸陸續續把預算審完但是也都沒有影響到所有整個行政院各部會去使用預算對不對"},{"start":77.485,"end":92.042,"text":"我今天要提的是二倍二倍金是我們政府中央政府的應急錢也是人民的救命錢沒有錯嘛那各部會送進來"},{"start":93.686,"end":116.613,"text":"要使用動二的部分你們到底有沒有好好的一筆一筆來審議 有 有沒有 有經過行政院還是直接交給你你全部通通買單我們審查然後簽行政院准對不起你麥克風好遠我聽得不是很清楚我們審查以後簽行政院核准"},{"start":118.109,"end":136.339,"text":"所以我觀察一下在113年度也就是今年度5000萬的動用二倍總共有11筆這兩天媒體上也有看到我的談話我相信你有看到二倍使用腐爛的程度不要說我們不給你"},{"start":138.254,"end":163.736,"text":"但是光是包括教育部拿來蓋校際研教園區還有外交部拿來辦住處的換約這個都不會是今年才知道的我為什麼請行政院副秘書長站在旁邊這些應該都不是今年才知道的為什麼會用動二包括內政部拿來辦理義難教招"},{"start":166.79,"end":168.553,"text":"這些該使用動惡嗎?主席長,你懂我意思嗎?"},{"start":174.813,"end":196.121,"text":"一般部會是這樣的他討論以後他原來的預算不夠支應所以我們預算動資二倍金他條件有什麼叫做預算不夠支應外交部拿來辦住處的換約這都不會是當下113年才知道他可能去年前年就已經知道時間到了要換約這件事情"},{"start":196.781,"end":223.097,"text":"但是他不確定性,所以他沒有辦法說那個在當年…什麼叫做不確定性?他早就應該把這個事情每個部會如果都說我不確定性所以我都要用凍二來處理,那還得了凍二當時法規上同意你用凍二的目的是什麼?你們現在凍二是全部都用凍二來去做處理那你現在包括凍二簽完了之後很多還變成流用"},{"start":224.929,"end":236.012,"text":"包括以111年度為例子申請用動二的總共有1647萬那隔年有保留到隔年使用的有99.62%包括國發會買這個檔案櫃到最後也保留主計長這種東西怎麼用動二你不覺得很離譜嗎"},{"start":256.814,"end":267.347,"text":"國發會買檔案櫃然後最後保留我看還有什麼東西還有辦公室的搬遷跟整修議政署他花了1647萬你覺得這個該使用棟二嗎?"},{"start":272.022,"end":288.897,"text":"他臨時接貨要在定期內要做一個搬遷那所以這個搬遷不是在預計的範圍裡面這個早就應該這個早就應該是用一般的預算編入吧包括醫政署他要用辦公室搬遷跟整修"},{"start":290.168,"end":307.277,"text":"他可以挪到明年或追加預算進來啊怎麼會用凍二呢他如果真的這麼急就用追加預算進來啊我們再來看怎麼處理啊怎麼用凍二你現在預備金是八山八海每一個部會想要用什麼都可以用换成是各部會另外一個小金庫啊"},{"start":316.688,"end":325.734,"text":"那各部會就不用好好編列啦。他就不用好好編列,反正不夠,到時候沒編,編得不夠精準,我全部都用送二,你通通都收啊。"},{"start":327.075,"end":352.246,"text":"所以原則上其實我們是對比較臨時有需要的第一我看到的是你沒有去追究各部會的行政責任所以對他們來說反正我沒有編到沒關係我就到最後我就索技術我用動惡來處理這就好了反正行政院會簽合同意對他來說心態就這樣子啊在我看來這一筆包括辦公一南辦公室的這個辦公室的裝修跟整修包括國發會買檔案櫃"},{"start":355.328,"end":356.872,"text":"欸 這個很離譜捏 這個也來用動惡來處理你聽到你自己不會覺得這怎麼會用動惡呢"},{"start":362.594,"end":384.229,"text":"我有沒有講錯?對,他就是說因為可能增加數量或者是說原來沒有預計到要...這跟增加數量也沒有關係那你就今年不要編明年再編進來就好明年公務預算一個檔案貴明年再編這有什麼但是用動二字就離譜了不符合動二的規範使用"},{"start":385.302,"end":395.852,"text":"那你各部會送進來動案你也沒有所謂的行政責任所以未來各部會就變成說反正編不夠沒關係我有一個小金庫可以用我就用預備金來處理就好了"},{"start":397.154,"end":421.988,"text":"東俄它的動資條件它其實是有三個啦一個就是原來計劃它有修正那第二個就是它有增加數量所以它是符合它的一個動資的原則就是數量增加導致它原來預算不夠的部分那第三個就是它有新增計劃所以它的三個原則就是等於你都沒有一個門檻你心裡都你心裡有這三個原則那我編不夠我全部不想寫我就全部都要編就好了"},{"start":433.717,"end":447.028,"text":"主席長我覺得齁動惡的使用齁我還是再次強調是政府的應急前當國家發生重大的事件需要緊急用的時候或者是人民的救命前"},{"start":448.476,"end":466.985,"text":"目前在我看來,無論是買檔案櫃,或者是辦公室的搬遷,或者是拿義男教召,或者是外交部拿來辦住外處換租,我覺得這都不是第一時間起,這早就應該各部會。"},{"start":468.146,"end":468.186,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":487.523,"end":503.619,"text":"這就更加離譜了,對不對?比如說它核定的時間就已經超過預算籌編的時間,它就來不及,所以這個部分就需要來動惡,是這樣子。在我看來你完全沒有把關嘛,所以在我看來各部位的編不夠就這樣子使用就好了,所以"},{"start":505.3,"end":525.342,"text":"我覺得這不符合我們所謂外界在觀察救命錢的使用所以會淪為各部會的小金庫所以我再一次認為我覺得主計處在這一個各部會使用動惡的把關上為了讓各部會未來精準地去編列各單位的預算"},{"start":526.343,"end":549.583,"text":"要更用心我覺得動惡的使用不應該是這樣的使用方式我再一次提醒我這樣子講應該合理啦行政院包括買什麼檔案櫃這個沒有那麼急啦外交部換約的部分早在前一兩年早就應該知道早就應該去做好因應的準備他用不到他自己在留用就好了而不是在動惡裡面在留用"},{"start":551.018,"end":571.666,"text":"一男的叫糟的辦公室更是如此所以我覺得目前的說法沒有辦法去說服外界對於動二預備金的服用濫用跟流用這個我必須要讓行政院的副秘書長知道這件事情所以動二的使用不應該淪為各部會的小金庫"},{"start":573.939,"end":599.124,"text":"這個最近我在媒體上已經有指出來我也希望主計長你在這邊動惡的部分要更嚴格的把關然後最後我要再一次問一下財劃法的部分複利民可以請回那個到目前為止我剛剛聽到幾位委員的質詢的結果大概大部分大概都聽到無論是限數法或財劃法這個部分都打算走復議對不對"},{"start":602.826,"end":618.018,"text":"這個部分那個行政院還在討論我們相關的一個因應措施看我們他整個一個討論的結果但這個部分也會跟也要經過總統的核可嘛對不對走副議那總統核可對不對賴總統核可那我再請一下副秘書長"},{"start":625.558,"end":648.888,"text":"因為程旭是復裕之後決定要復裕不管這三個法案哪一個法案要復裕哪一個法案最後要走釋憲最後都要總統的核可對不對對所以也就是說這整件事情最後也要總統同意嘛對所以從今天上午聽到現在這三個法案最後做出的結果也都是賴總統的意志"},{"start":650.049,"end":666.242,"text":"我這樣講沒有錯嗎?我們會跟他報告,同意後我們對,到最後就是賴總統的意志嘛那到底賴總統對於這三個法案最後我昨天聽到在其他委員會有聽到說路上有提到說"},{"start":667.483,"end":689.517,"text":"我從媒體上有看到說到底會不會召集院紀協調的部分後來否認沒有那到底這三個法案會不會走院紀協調?行政院跟立法院會不會走院紀協調?會不會請總統出來做院紀協調?有沒有這件事情?你不清楚還是不知道還是不敢說?你不知道?媒體上有沒有看到?"},{"start":692.215,"end":698.595,"text":"媒體上有聽聞有新聞有聽聞有聽聞所以你不知道我不知道"},{"start":702.062,"end":723.138,"text":"好,第一個我尊重了我覺得這整件事情這三個法案這三大法案每一個法案其實都是攸關人民不管是立法院在野黨的立場也好或你們的立場也好對於國家整個未來的運作跟預算執行都是洞見觀瞻我覺得大家也都在看"},{"start":723.618,"end":723.638,"text":"謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:08:40+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:08:41+08:00","text":"謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:08:41+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:08:42+08:00","text":"召委對李坤城委員特別好，給他講了特別長的時間，在此表明一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-30T11:08:42+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:08:43+08:00","text":"大家都想暢所欲言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:08:43+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:08:44+08:00","text":"沒關係，召委請坐。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:08:44+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:08:45+08:00","text":"我是不是可以請行政院副秘書長……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-30T11:08:45+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:08:46+08:00","text":"李副秘書長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:08:46+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:08:47+08:00","text":"以及主計長。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-30T11:08:47+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:08:48+08:00","text":"陳主計長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李副秘書長國興","start":"2024-12-30T11:08:48+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:08:49+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:08:43.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:08:44.638000+08:00","text":"主計長，我想先請問你一下，你們現在有掌握各委員會審議預算的進度嗎？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-30T11:08:44.638000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:09:19.326000+08:00","text":"有，目前有43個部會完成初步審議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:09:19.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:09:22.393000+08:00","text":"是，那我請問，立法院有沒有在擋預算？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:09:24.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:09:25.098000+08:00","text":"沒有嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:09:27.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:09:29.462000+08:00","text":"這個訊息要讓外界全部都知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:09:29.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:09:52.519000+08:00","text":"其實過去10年以來，我們大概在12月31號審完年度預算的大概只有3年，分別是97年度、101年度跟105年度，我們完成三讀，大部分都是過完國曆年後，立法院才陸陸續續把預算審完，但是也都沒有影響到所有行政院各部會去使用預算，對不對？是。好。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:09:57.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:10:08.498000+08:00","text":"回過頭來，我要請問一下，我今天要提的是二備，二備金是中央政府的應急錢，也是人民的救命錢，沒有錯嘛！是。","quality":0.705},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:10:10.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:10:22.269000+08:00","text":"各部會送進來要使用動二的部分，你們到底有沒有好好地一筆一筆來審議，有沒有？有。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:10:22.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:10:27.270000+08:00","text":"有經過行政院，還是直接交給你，你全部通通買單？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-30T11:10:27.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:10:30.791000+08:00","text":"我們審查，然後簽行政院核准。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:10:31.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:10:33.972000+08:00","text":"對不起，你離麥克風好遠，我聽得不是很清楚。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-30T11:10:34.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:10:36.593000+08:00","text":"我們審查以後，簽行政院核准。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:10:38.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:10:47.634000+08:00","text":"我觀察了一下，113年度（也就是今年度）動用二備的總共有11筆。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:10:47.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:11:16.670000+08:00","text":"這兩天媒體上也有看到我的談話，我相信你有看到，二備使用浮濫的程度，不要說我們不給你，光是教育部拿來蓋校際研教園區，還有外交部拿來辦駐處的換約，這個都不會是今年才知道的，我為什麼請行政院副秘書長站在旁邊？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:11:16.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:11:20.814000+08:00","text":"這些應該都不是今年才知道的，為什麼會用動二？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:11:21.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:11:28.052000+08:00","text":"包括內政部拿來辦理役男教召，這些該使用動二嗎？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:11:28.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:11:28.553000+08:00","text":"主計長，你懂我的意思嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-30T11:11:34.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:11:42.696000+08:00","text":"一般部會是這樣子，他討論以後，他原來的預算不夠支應，所以我們動支二備金的條件有……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:11:42.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:11:45.357000+08:00","text":"什麼叫做預算不夠支應？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:11:45.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:11:56.101000+08:00","text":"外交部拿來辦駐處的換約，這都不會是當下（113年）才知道，他可能去年、前年就已經知道時間到了要換約這件事情……","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-30T11:11:56.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:12:00.083000+08:00","text":"但是它不確定性，所以他沒有辦法在當年度……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:12:00.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:12:01.324000+08:00","text":"什麼叫做不確定性？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:12:01.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:12:03.765000+08:00","text":"他早就應該知道這件事情。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:12:04.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:12:09.389000+08:00","text":"每個部會如果都說不確定性，所以都要用動二來處理，那還得了！","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:12:12.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:12:15.412000+08:00","text":"法規上同意用動二的目的是什麼？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:12:15.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:12:23.077000+08:00","text":"你們現在全部都用動二來做處理，而且動二簽准了之後，很多還變成留用。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:12:25.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:12:34.451000+08:00","text":"以111年度為例子，申請用動二的，就我觀察，總共有1,647萬，保留到隔年使用的有99.62%，包括國發會買檔案櫃，到最後也保留。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:12:34.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:12:36.012000+08:00","text":"主計長，這種東西怎麼會用動二，你不覺得很離譜嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:12:56.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:13:07.347000+08:00","text":"國發會買檔案櫃，最後保留，還有役政署的辦公室搬遷及整修花了1,647萬，你覺得這個該使用動二嗎？","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-30T11:13:12.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:13:19.228000+08:00","text":"他臨時接獲要在定期內搬遷，所以這個搬遷不是在預計的範圍裡面……","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:13:19.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:13:33.390000+08:00","text":"這個早就應該用一般的預算編入，役政署的辦公室搬遷及整修要用，他可以挪到明年或追加預算進來，怎麼會用動二呢？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-30T11:13:33.390000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:13:34.390000+08:00","text":"但是他有時間限制……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:13:34.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:13:39.953000+08:00","text":"他如果真的這麼急，就用追加預算進來，我們再來看怎麼處理，怎麼會用動二？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:13:40.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:13:44.735000+08:00","text":"你現在預備金是包山包海，每一個部會想要用什麼都可以用耶！","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:13:45.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:13:47.257000+08:00","text":"變成是各部會另外一個小金庫啊！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-30T11:13:47.257000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:13:56.688000+08:00","text":"預備金是原有預算如果有修正計畫，或者是原來的預算增加數量，或者有其他……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:13:56.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:14:05.714000+08:00","text":"那各部會就不用好好編列了，他就不用好好編列了，反正編得不夠精準，到時候全部都用動二，你通通都收啊！","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-30T11:14:07.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:14:10.617000+08:00","text":"所以原則上我們是對比較臨時有需要的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:14:10.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:14:25.263000+08:00","text":"第一，我看到的是你沒有去追究各部會的行政責任，所以對他們來說，沒有編到沒關係，到最後就申請用動二來處理就好了，反正行政院會簽核同意，對他來說，心態就這樣子啊！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:14:25.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:14:35.469000+08:00","text":"在我看來，包括役政署的辦公室搬遷及整修，包括國發會買檔案櫃，這個很離譜耶！","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:14:35.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:14:35.529000+08:00","text":"這個也用動二來處理！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:14:35.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:14:36.852000+08:00","text":"你聽到你自己不會覺得這怎麼會用動二呢？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:14:42.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:14:44.595000+08:00","text":"我有沒有講錯？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-30T11:14:44.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:14:49.299000+08:00","text":"他可能因為增加數量，或者是原來沒有預計到要……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:14:49.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:14:59.906000+08:00","text":"這跟增加數量也沒有關係，你就今年不要編，明年再編進來就好了，明年公務預算再編進來，一個檔案櫃明年再編，這有什麼？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:14:59.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:15:01.187000+08:00","text":"但是用動二就離譜了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:15:01.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:15:03.968000+08:00","text":"不符合動二的使用規範。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:15:05.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:15:15.832000+08:00","text":"各部會送進來動二申請，也沒有所謂的行政責任，所以未來各部會就變成編不夠沒關係，反正有一個小金庫可以用，就用預備金來處理就好了。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-30T11:15:17.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:15:35.644000+08:00","text":"動二的動支條件其實有三個：一個就是原來計畫有修正；第二個就是有增加數量，所以它是符合動支的原則，就是數量增加導致原來的預算不夠；第三個就是有新增計畫，這三個原則……","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:15:35.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:15:38.046000+08:00","text":"但是你都沒有一個門檻，你心裡都……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-30T11:15:38.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:15:38.766000+08:00","text":"有，所以……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:15:39.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:15:41.968000+08:00","text":"用這三個原則，那他編不夠，全部都不敷使用，就全部都編就好了啦！","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-30T11:15:41.968000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:15:53.717000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，當初提報動二有將近94%，但是我們大概只核定百分之七十幾。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:15:53.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:16:26.745000+08:00","text":"主計長，動二的使用，我還是再次強調，是政府的應急錢，當國家發生重大事件，需要緊急使用的時候，或者是人民的救命錢，目前在我看來，無論是買檔案櫃，或者是辦公室的搬遷，或者是役男教召，或者是外交部拿來辦駐外處換租，我覺得這都不是第一時間才知道，各部會早就應該要有提早的因應及準備，在我看來，這些項目拿來用動二叫做包山包海，這叫做浮濫地編列動二，而且留用的程度非常高，這更不合理！","quality":0.599},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:16:47.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:16:48.804000+08:00","text":"既然編了，最後還用不到，還變留用，這就更離譜了，對不對？所以……","quality":0.36},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-30T11:16:50.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:16:57.713000+08:00","text":"有的是這樣，譬如它核定的時間已經超過預算籌編的時間，就來不及，所以這個部分就需要來動二，是這樣子。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:16:58.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:16:59.955000+08:00","text":"在我看來，你完全沒有把關嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:17:00.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:17:03.138000+08:00","text":"在我看來，各部會如果編不夠，就這樣子使用就好了。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:17:05.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:17:15.131000+08:00","text":"在我看來，這不符合我們觀察的救命錢的使用，所以會淪為各部會的小金庫。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:17:16.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:17:31.307000+08:00","text":"我覺得主計總處在各部會使用動二的把關上，為了讓各部會未來精準地去編列各單位的預算，要更用心，我覺得動二的使用不應該是這樣的方式，我再次提醒。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-30T11:17:31.307000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:17:33.029000+08:00","text":"是，我們會來加強。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:17:33.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:17:34.910000+08:00","text":"我這樣子講應該合理啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:17:36.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:17:53.039000+08:00","text":"包括買檔案櫃，這個沒有那麼急；外交部換約的部分早在前一、兩年就應該知道，早就應該去做好因應的準備，他用不到，他自己再留用就好了，而不是在動二裡面再留用；役男教召的辦公室更是如此。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:17:53.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:18:21.080000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得目前對於動支第二預備金的浮用、濫用及留用的說法沒有辦法去說服外界，我必須要讓行政院副秘書長知道這件事情，動二的使用不應該淪為各部會的小金庫，這個最近我在媒體上已經有指出來，主計長，你在這邊，我也希望動二的部分要更嚴格地把關。是。","quality":0.782},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:18:21.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:18:24.281000+08:00","text":"最後，我要再一次問財劃法的部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:18:25.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:18:26.161000+08:00","text":"副秘，你可以請回。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:18:27.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:18:39.124000+08:00","text":"到目前為止，我剛剛聽到幾位委員質詢的結果，大概聽到的，無論是憲訴法或財劃法，都打算走覆議，對不對？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-30T11:18:42.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:18:50.752000+08:00","text":"這個部分行政院還在討論，我們相關的因應措施會看整個討論的結果……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:18:51.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:18:55.616000+08:00","text":"當然這個部分也要先經過總統的核可，對不對？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:18:55.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:18:56.657000+08:00","text":"走覆議，要賴總統核可，對不對？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-12-30T11:18:56.657000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:18:57.657000+08:00","text":"這個部分我們遵照行政院的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:18:57.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:19:17.003000+08:00","text":"那我再請一下副秘書長，依照程序，這三個法案，不管哪一個法案要覆議、哪一個法案要走釋憲，最後都要總統的核可，對不對？對。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:19:17.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:19:22.245000+08:00","text":"也就是這整件事情最後也要總統同意嘛！對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:19:23.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:19:32.431000+08:00","text":"從今天上午聽到現在，所以這三個法案最後做出的結果也都是賴總統的意志，我這樣講沒有錯嘛！","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"李副秘書長國興","start":"2024-12-30T11:19:32.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:19:35.493000+08:00","text":"我們會跟他報告，同意後，我們提報院會……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:19:35.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:19:37.635000+08:00","text":"對，到最後就是賴總統的意志嘛！對。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:19:40.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:19:56.469000+08:00","text":"賴總統對於這三個法案，我昨天在其他委員會有聽到秘書長提到，也從媒體上有看到，到底會不會召集院際協調，後來否認說沒有，到底這三個法案會不會走院際協調？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:19:56.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:19:59.751000+08:00","text":"行政院跟立法院會不會走院際協調？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:19:59.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:20:01.212000+08:00","text":"會不會請總統出來做院際協調，有沒有這件事情？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"李副秘書長國興","start":"2024-12-30T11:20:01.212000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:20:03.833000+08:00","text":"很抱歉，這個部分我不清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:20:03.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:20:07.916000+08:00","text":"你是不清楚，還是不知道，還是不敢說？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"李副秘書長國興","start":"2024-12-30T11:20:07.916000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:20:08.916000+08:00","text":"我不知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:20:07.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:20:09.497000+08:00","text":"你不知道，媒體上有沒有看到？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李副秘書長國興","start":"2024-12-30T11:20:12.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:20:13.379000+08:00","text":"媒體上有聽聞了。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:20:13.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:20:15.084000+08:00","text":"有新聞？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李副秘書長國興","start":"2024-12-30T11:20:15.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:20:15.305000+08:00","text":"有聽聞了。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:20:15.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:20:17.913000+08:00","text":"有聽聞，所以你不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李副秘書長國興","start":"2024-12-30T11:20:18.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:20:18.575000+08:00","text":"我不知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:20:22.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:20:23.443000+08:00","text":"好，第一個，我尊重啦！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-12-30T11:20:24.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:20:43.118000+08:00","text":"我覺得這整件事情、這三大法案，每一個法案其實都是攸關人民，不管是立法院在野黨的立場也好、或你們的立場也好，對於未來國家整個運作跟預算執行都是動見觀瞻，我覺得在這三個法案之後，大家也都在看未來朝野互動是一個什麼樣的狀態、立法院跟行政院的互動是一個什麼樣的狀態，所以你今天代表秘書長在現場，我覺得這三個法案後續的處理，你們真的是要三思，以上，謝謝。","quality":0.475},{"speaker":"李副秘書長國興","start":"2024-12-30T11:20:43.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-30T11:20:43.638000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-30T11:20:44.138000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:20:46.138000+08:00","text":"謝謝李彥秀委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-30T11:20:46.438000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-30T11:20:48.723714+08:00","text":"接著請楊瓊瓔委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}