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謝謝"},{"start":2377.422,"end":2393.248,"text":"非常感謝機關代表經濟部曾文森政次長所做的說明那接下來是不是不曉得各位的出席的協商代表有沒有什麼補充的意見好我們現在先請台灣民眾黨黃珊珊委員"},{"start":2394.43,"end":2408.767,"text":"謝謝主席我想也謝謝次長的說明但是這一次的調升在社會各界還有民生議題來說其實造成了很多很多人民的困擾因為主要還是看到台電連續的擴大虧損"},{"start":2412.652,"end":2431.214,"text":"電價的調漲當然可能跟國際的狀況有關但是也跟台灣的能源政策配置有關那主要還是希望在這個提案裡面我們不單單只是針對調漲、不調漲來討論而是希望說現在的問題是我們能源政策造成了"},{"start":2432.615,"end":2450.321,"text":"在人民口袋裏面漲．但是又向民間的電廠高價購入綠電對於一般民眾會有非常強烈的所謂的相對剝奪感因為台電的財務黑洞的擴大營運績效造成大家覺得他到底如果是燃料影響"},{"start":2451.101,"end":2468.277,"text":"那還有沒有其他的東西要跟國人來做說明那另外就是他對於未來發電、儲電、配電還有電網韌性不足的這些問題才是我們關心未來能源政策必須要討論所以民眾黨的提案裡面很清楚的是不單單只是討論漲不漲"},{"start":2469.758,"end":2485.486,"text":"而是希望經濟部要針對臺灣整體的能源的政策也就是將來的能源配比或者是現在要討論是不是所謂合能的問題或者是光電的問題這些都必須要做整體的向立法院來做個檢討報告另外就是電價費率的結構現在"},{"start":2490.208,"end":2519.384,"text":"各種的說法都有當然你有電業委員會我相信這個也都是有專家在討論但是相對的是立法院作為民意機關我們必須要跟人民來做溝通所以也要把電費費率的電價費率的結構清楚的向國人來做說明那另外就是台電各項的支出這些費用跟相關的明細它每年虧這麼多虧在哪裡為什麼這樣我相信可以很清楚的來向國人同胞說明"},{"start":2520.024,"end":2541.081,"text":"這也是我們希望說在討論調漲與否之前要先把這些東西講清楚那最重要我們認為還有一個所謂的可以尊潔那另外就是如果以國營事業來說我們不單單只是國營事業的管理而是能不能夠在現有的機制之下這是公共的費用"},{"start":2543.923,"end":2572.103,"text":"相關的事業費用但是我們能不能夠得到其他的更多的收入來源比如說資產活化、增解這些我們都希望它有一個完整的檢討報告所以我們的提案裡面希望經濟部不是只有單純就電價委員會調漲的這個機制做說明我們希望它針對整體能源政策、電價費率的結構還有台電的各項支出來做說明最重要的是它有沒有辦法"},{"start":2572.663,"end":2590.309,"text":"各種的尊潔他做了哪些另外對於發電、儲電、配電還有電網韌性這些必須要提出相關的計畫跟人民來做說明那未來幾年燃料繼續上漲我們的電價可能的狀況我們都必須要先預判而且"},{"start":2591.149,"end":2609.935,"text":"要給人民一個解釋我們不能只是說愛日本韓國漲那麼多他們的狀況跟我們一樣嗎也許每個國家都在漲因為燃料在漲沒有錯但是我們如果可能的話我們可以做到不用漲但是我們也可以讓人民可以在他的"},{"start":2610.555,"end":2611.616,"text":"非常感謝黃珊珊委員孟改兄有請"},{"start":2632.37,"end":2652.847,"text":"謝謝我想國民黨團今天代表出席今天這個協調會我再一次強調錯誤的能源政策比貪污更可怕如果錯誤的能源政策不調整的話我們換100位總經理巧婦難為無名之炊都沒有辦法讓台電穩定供電並且有合理的電價"},{"start":2653.948,"end":2679.818,"text":"我們從頭到尾沒有怪過台電的基層工作人員我們也都知道我們來自地方我們來自選區我們每一個地方的基層公務同仁台電的員工都非常辛苦我們都理解這也都是我們的家人朋友但是上位者執政者有沒有真真正正的把所有能源現在面對的問題都徹底做一個釐清這個才是關鍵"},{"start":2682.598,"end":2702.986,"text":"剛剛官方代表一直有講是說尊重審議委員會真的有尊重嗎?我們過去這幾年每每都看到在選舉前審議委員會就會有所謂的動漲的策略即便是國際原油物價大漲國際原油在2021年來到新高點選前就是可以不漲"},{"start":2703.886,"end":2724.083,"text":"選後就會做調整這真的有反映真實的成本跟審議委員會的專業嗎?再者2021年國際原油以及相關的原物料是達到最高峰但是到了今年2024年我們其實已經看到了國際原油以及相關的燃料的價格是"},{"start":2724.984,"end":2747.378,"text":"回復到過去的水準以及甚至趨勢是有往下的現在在做一個最大規模最大比例的一個調漲所謂何來所以我們一直要溝通的是能不能開誠布公的跟國人大家好好的講清楚台灣現在面臨到能源是什麼樣的問題以及大家來做選擇"},{"start":2748.539,"end":2764.207,"text":"沒有錯每個人都要用電我們也都希望能夠有合理穩定的電價以及我們也都希望有一個穩定的供電所以能源是選擇不是政治意識形態不應該變成政客拿來鬥爭的工具"},{"start":2765.578,"end":2782.859,"text":"台電、經濟部在這個立場上面才更應該發揮專業所以這也是為什麼國民黨團在這個禮拜三4月24號我們也有一個相似的提案也召開了朝野協商也感謝民眾黨團出席"},{"start":2785.267,"end":2808.347,"text":"台電跟行政部門以及國民黨和民眾黨團在禮拜三的中午也有召開朝野協商但我們非常遺憾的是當天也沒有結論因為執政的民進黨黨團沒有派任何代表來我想今天可能民進黨黨團的這個位置又要空缺在這邊了所以可能這個協商也沒有辦法有任何結論"},{"start":2809.468,"end":2830.904,"text":"但我們要問如果說這個是一個新的國會、新的民意、新的展現的話民進黨黨團到目前為止每一次不管是國民黨黨團、不管是民眾黨黨團所召開的協商全部都選擇神隱不出席到底是尊重民意還是踐踏民意我想這一點社會只有公平"},{"start":2831.644,"end":2843.459,"text":"所以簡單的講我們支持我們也希望台電真的好好的思考以及經濟部應該針對我們台灣整體能源政策來做一個徹底的檢討"},{"start":2845,"end":2869.761,"text":"最後4月1號不要以為說電價已經漲了所以反正投過身就過我要敬告大家的是4月1號的電價調漲會在未來的兩個月才是真真正正反映到一般商家一般民間以及一般普羅大眾百姓的成本上因為台電是兩個月"},{"start":2871.522,"end":2888.616,"text":"提供一次電價的帳單而未來的兩個月才會讓全國國人真真正正面臨到電價調漲之後有感的成本上升而造成整體的物價的通貨膨脹所以這一些都是國人要面臨到的問題我想這絕對不是現在以為"},{"start":2891.918,"end":2909.157,"text":"4月1日過了就投過生就過的一個狀況所以我們支持這個案子我們也感謝在禮拜三朝野協商的時候民眾黨團有支持本黨團的案子那我們希望未來民進黨黨團也不要再閃躲好好的面對民意、直球對決謝謝"},{"start":2912.615,"end":2933.703,"text":"非常謝謝侯孟楷委員因為到目前為止民主進步黨還沒有任何的代表前來協商不過我想今天既然我們的經濟部都次長親自出席了台電的總經理也出席了"},{"start":2935.364,"end":2947.819,"text":"我當然不希望因為下一場協商我們表定的時間是一點的時候開始我相信我們還是本於最大的善意希望在一點"},{"start":2948.956,"end":2975.931,"text":"在一點第二場協商開始以前第一場協商終結以前民主進步黨能夠由黨團的代表來參與到底他們對於有關於要求在向經濟委員會提出全面的檢討報告之前必須要先緩漲民主進步黨黨團他們所抱持的政策立場到底是什麼能夠來參與這一場協商"},{"start":2979.012,"end":3000.212,"text":"不過我想也不要讓官員在因為下一場協商是一點嘛那大家中間難得有機會坐在同一個會議室裡面針對這麼重要的議題來討論我們也不要浪費時間因為我知道大家的時間其實都蠻寶貴的"},{"start":3002.975,"end":3028.283,"text":"那相關的議題我覺得利用這個機會行政部門跟黨團的代表能夠彼此交換意見我覺得這也是民主精神的展現也是責任政治的實現所以不曉得對於剛剛民眾黨黨團跟國民黨黨團所發表的看法經濟部這邊的代表或者是台電的總經理有沒有什麼要補充說明的"},{"start":3031.495,"end":3043.49,"text":"謝謝主席我想先做說明剛才那個我想黃安偉有提到一個事情就是我們其實還是需要把那個成本控制好重點會是這一個事情"},{"start":3044.406,"end":3066,"text":"我想說接下來不管是因為其實在立法院過程裡面台電的預算大概每年都要送進來會送進來一次過去我們的審查都比較集中在一些焦點式的議題比方說像燃煤的預算金額不能夠增加等等都會是在這一些議題上面那另外一個就是預算執行率這個是比較長的檢討"},{"start":3067.481,"end":3083.39,"text":"那其實各種燃料的結構的一些價格其實在預算審查當然沒有那麼多的機會可以說得很清楚因為時間有限不過其實這一次包括電價的審查如果就是立法院對於我們整個台電運轉就是在成本這一塊"},{"start":3084.531,"end":3109.297,"text":"有什麼樣的一些細節的問題我都覺得說這個本來就是台電是國營事業就是要說清楚那我們其實這段時間也自己在自我整理包含就是像我們的燃煤採購的方式到底是什麼樣的方式那因為有的時候討論很簡化其實常常講說是長約啊跟現貨其實我們的長約就有非常多的約它是一個bundle裡面有非常多的合約組合起來的"},{"start":3110.177,"end":3116.439,"text":"台電的採購策略是平準精神大幅上漲時下跌時會跌得比人家慢日本和澳洲也是採取這樣的方式我擔心今天佔用太多時間或是各位委員有細節想要問我我可以回答的我盡量回答"},{"start":3133.606,"end":3145.532,"text":"不過無論如何有一件事情我是同意的就是我們也會願意做就是我們願意把我們的成本就是攤開給大家知道我們是用什麼樣方法在做然後我們整個能源結構的狀況"},{"start":3147.349,"end":3148.71,"text":"在財務上、會計上合理的東西我們都必須一一跟立法院做說明"},{"start":3166.124,"end":3181.022,"text":"那這些其實是一塊一塊要猜出來跟各位做報告但我覺得只要有時間我們就會一個一個來做說明要做的不夠好的我們一定會改正的這個事情沒有什麼其他的理由好講那只是說因為"},{"start":3182.403,"end":3196.969,"text":"只是這個波動非常大,讓大家沒有時間好好看這些細節但是我們又面臨著需要調漲的一個過程簡單來講我們採取的策略就是把那個波動跟原來的評準一樣我們把價格波動的時間拉得比較長了一點"},{"start":3205.498,"end":3222.367,"text":"那我覺得這一個問題我們需要可能要做一些討論那當然大家說什麼時候來反映電價是一個最好的方法因為油價是波動的那電價如果波動是不是一個就是浮動的電價是不是一個好的做法"},{"start":3223.24,"end":3246.494,"text":"那這個我覺得大家還是做討論因為最近媒體也有很多學者投書就說台電合法把這個電價比照油價讓它開始變浮動可是浮動對於我們的民生或是業界尤其是做生產決策會不會是一個最好的這個我想會有不同的想法跟思考所以我覺得這一題是真的有必要我也覺得台灣要趕快把這個問題理得更清楚讓這個問題"},{"start":3251.998,"end":3267.768,"text":"確定了一個軌道以後我們還有很多工作可以一起推動那我覺得這一個部分我們是是沒有問題就是只要立法院排會或要我們來做報告我們就一一的來向委員做報告這個我們完全會遵照立法院的決議來做"},{"start":3270.707,"end":3285.589,"text":"非常謝謝次長剛剛次長講到一個蠻關鍵的重點我個人是很認同的就台電在計價的時候不管是你們的計價的公式那以及在公式裡面的每一個參數"},{"start":3287.251,"end":3307.852,"text":"那一個參數數字它的基礎的資料相關的資料其實我覺得不管是從經濟部還是從台電的觀點能夠把完整的資料送給各個黨團甚至各個委員我相信這會是一個理性討論的基礎"},{"start":3310.575,"end":3324.02,"text":"那所以這些資料今天我們還有5分鐘啦那民進黨到底會不會來到目前為止我也不要先做任何的預設那只不過說這些基礎的資料我覺得"},{"start":3325.56,"end":3352.029,"text":"要讓整個公民社會整個國會的監督的討論能夠更透明更健全是不是就請剛剛次長所提的那些相關的資料其實都可以先送給各個委員各個黨團我們在討論起來的時候其實會更有基礎我相信這應該沒有什麼問題不過剛好利用這個時間我也想要請教一下因為"},{"start":3354.005,"end":3374.236,"text":"我們在針對整體的電力政策在進行討論的時候反映到最後用戶端當然是電價漲不漲但是我們在關心的不是只有那個電費計的方式還有包括你一開始的能源政策整個發電的配比"},{"start":3375.607,"end":3392.818,"text":"以及我們在進行能源政策跟發電配比當中到目前為止所出現讓社會大眾沒有辦法接受的事情我具體的說以今天來講今天立揚集團"},{"start":3394.133,"end":3409.49,"text":"在台南七股五天的案場就五個天字背的案場今天是以貪汙自罪條例起訴了立昂集團的董事長谷勝輝也起訴了台南市經發局的局長陳凱琳"},{"start":3411.547,"end":3425.546,"text":"但我看了檢察官的起訴書讓我非常的震驚震驚的理由是竟然有經濟部能源局光電組的組長林文信他也被起訴了"},{"start":3426.667,"end":3452.351,"text":"在其入書裡面有非常具體的指責當初古聖輝明明就不符合小二甲的要件是怎麼樣跑去經濟部能源局在靈文性的協助之下跟台南市經發局去施壓華為則也有參與會議地方政府的事情台南市政府自己說清楚但"},{"start":3453.82,"end":3479.682,"text":"作為一個立委我對於經濟部能源局太陽光電組的組長林文信今天遭到貪污治罪條例、圖利罪起訴我必須要很沉痛的跟經濟部的代表表達我的震驚跟失望在檢察官的起訴書當中經濟部能源局的官員是怎麼配合"},{"start":3481.107,"end":3492.182,"text":"不肖的業者、立洋的集團鼓聲揮去用違法的方式用偽造的文件來去迴避小二甲的規定"},{"start":3493.427,"end":3518.49,"text":"而這整件事情經濟部能源局的官員全部都參與所以他今天才被起訴了嘛那我的問題就很直接囉接下來對於經濟部來講當初騙到手的電業籌設許可要不要撤銷這件事情經濟部打算要怎麼處理是不是在還有空的時候可以順便請市長跟大家說明一下謝謝"},{"start":3523.468,"end":3536.249,"text":"雖然這個是今天發生的新聞事件但是我想跟主席說明第一件就是說有關於能源局同仁被起訴的事情我想說如果是放在司法的環節裡面"},{"start":3539.012,"end":3563.824,"text":"現在要去證明的就是這一些檢察官起訴的內容是不是真的讓我們同仁構成違法事實到目前為止推定無罪這件事情在三權分立的國家我想這一個是確認的至於第二個部分我想電籌電籌的過程如果涉及不法確認坦白講這個電籌就沒有存在的合理基礎該撤銷的我們一定會撤銷"},{"start":3571.393,"end":3597.039,"text":"謝謝次長的說明我也再跟次長說明一下行事上面的不法跟行政上面的不法是兩個完全不同的概念我們當然是接受無罪推進原則不過也要請經濟部的官員可以認知到無罪推進原則是在行事訴訟的領域裡面所適用的法則跟我剛剛所請教的行政不法那是兩個完全不同的領域"},{"start":3597.799,"end":3624.147,"text":"那按照剛剛次長的說明是要等到三省定業了以後經濟部才會啟動針對行政不法的部分當初這個電籌許可是如何透過偽造的文件是如何透過不法的程序所拿到的才要開始啟動嗎還是目前的行政調查程序現在其實就應該要開始處理了"},{"start":3624.887,"end":3636.029,"text":"我覺得這個可能是我們在討論當代法治國家的時候把刑事不法跟行政不法把它區別清楚一個非常重要的討論基礎關於這幾個案子的行政流程的部分"},{"start":3649.653,"end":3666.081,"text":"那能源署這邊甚至經濟部也應該到能源署能源署把這整個流程瞭解清楚是哪些流程事實上在程序上面是不符合規定的我想這一個部分我們會開始啟動馬上來做"},{"start":3669.342,"end":3696.715,"text":"這是第一點第二點是我想其實我也跟委員說明我想經營部不做立法院也會問這一題其實這一件事情本來我們就是要把這個事情清清楚楚的交代到底現在檢察官起訴的內容牽涉的環節是什麼東西在行政的分工上屬經濟部所主管的內容是什麼那執行的程序如何有哪些過程"},{"start":3697.813,"end":3715.04,"text":"有誰參與我想說把這些東西理清楚行政機關有我們的調查方式我們可能會從過去開會的各種會議記錄來找我們會儘量的就我們在行政調查的部分可以調查的部分我們一定會先來理清"},{"start":3717.026,"end":3739.253,"text":"非常謝謝次長次長最起碼我們今天的協商雖然民主進步黨沒有派代表來但我們還是對整個社會有所注意剛剛次長已經表明了針對今天所發生的這樣子一個案子次長也表明了說經濟部會立刻啟動行政調查然後去查相關的環節"},{"start":3740.433,"end":3769.276,"text":"那我倒是給經濟部的同仁一個建議啊檢察官的起訴書對於經濟部能源局的官員到底是怎麼樣透過不法的方式去圖利的讓谷昇輝他們可以拿到非法的這個電籌許可這件事情有相當具體的指責那看完了起訴書以後檢察官的起訴是不是都有證據支持行政上面應該要怎麼處理我相信啊會是一個行政調查非常好的起點"},{"start":3770.963,"end":3798.127,"text":"今天因為民主進步黨黨團沒有代表出席因此我們本案保留送請院長協商謝謝 散會第二場怎麼樣不用啊 他們要訪就進來就好啦"},{"start":3799.742,"end":3817.12,"text":"對阿你就請他們進來就好啦他們如果要我出去的話就請他們稍等"},{"start":3828.917,"end":3852.174,"text":"我會出去受訪,等我把協商做完好嗎?可以嗎?再半個小時。第二場行政同仁是你嗎?好,謝謝。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}