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請主席宣布開會"},{"start":1732.142,"end":1753.296,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議一事錄實驗中華民國113年4月25日星期四上午9時至12時5分下午20時至5時8分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員審委員發會等13人列席委員閣委員如君等8人列席官員立法院秘書長周萬來等人"},{"start":1754.777,"end":1770.725,"text":"主席．召集委員嘉賓．報告事項．宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定．討論事項．繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具立法院組織法部分條文修正草案等15案．本次會有委員審發會等14人提出質詢．文富坤齊等2人提出書面質詢．"},{"start":1772.186,"end":1796.219,"text":"決議一報告及詢答完畢二為立法院組織法部分條文修正草案等四案進行逐條審查第三條第五條第十四條第十五條增訂第十九條之二第二十四條第三十二條第三十三條及增訂第三十三條之三均保留送院會處理第二十八條修正如下第二十八條第二十五條及第二十六條所列之研究員副研究員助理研究員"},{"start":1797.139,"end":1820.275,"text":"得准用教育人員任用條例聘任之前項聘任人員之臨聘原額待遇業務管理及考核事項由立法院定之全案審查完並按理據審查報告提請院會公決需叫黨團協商院會討論時由中召集委員嘉賓出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用自用與授權主席及事人員整理"},{"start":1821.335,"end":1848.208,"text":"立法委員行為法第7條之一及第30條條文修正草案等3案立法院議事規則第47條第48條及第52條條文修正草案等2案及立法院職權刑事法部分條文修正草案等6案均另定期繼續審查提案條文均已宣讀完畢四委員諮詢時要求提供相關資料會議書面答覆者請相關機關請速送交個別委員及本會經表決通過散會動議宣讀完畢"},{"start":1854.022,"end":1873.578,"text":"我們先介紹在場委員、審發會委員接著介紹列席官員監察院秘書長李君秘書長副秘書長劉文世副秘書長監察業務處王貞華處長監察調查處楊昌憲處長"},{"start":1882.705,"end":1910.072,"text":"公職人員產產申報處處長陳美妍綜合業務處處長汪玲玲人事事主任劉嘉惠社福未還委員會主秘施貞揚交通採購委員會主秘鄭旭浩國家人權委員會代理執行秘書邱秀蘭"},{"start":1911.892,"end":1939.159,"text":"法規研究委員會執行秘書黃敬興監察委員紀律委員會執行秘書吳育湘權序部法規司司長雷辰行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處專門委員賴佳陽那我們"},{"start":1942,"end":1952.226,"text":"議事錄宣讀完畢了,那我們現在先確定議事錄,請問各位就上次的會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有的話,議事錄確定"},{"start":1959.428,"end":1981.163,"text":"現在我宣讀本次議程討論事項審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具《監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案》我們現在先進行提案說明及報告因為委員沒有到我們現在先請機關報告"},{"start":1989.574,"end":1996.272,"text":"請機關代表報告那發言時間是3分鐘那我們現在先請監察院李秘書長報告"},{"start":2003.411,"end":2019.29,"text":"主席各位先生各位女士大家早監察院今天非常榮幸應邀到這裡來說明有關立法委員徐巧芯等17位提供所謂監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二的修正草案以下是我們的報告"},{"start":2020.431,"end":2037.58,"text":"現在的組織法第三條之一是因應1992年的修憲將監察院由原來的國會改成不是國會那他的方式提名方式也由總統提名經立法院同意任命之做了一個改變所以我們就參照考試院"},{"start":2038.48,"end":2061.909,"text":"考試委員還有司法院的大法官這樣的體力我們列了6項的相關規定資格限制在109年為了因應國家人權委員會的成立另外又加了第7款分別是第一款是曾經擔任立委或直轄市議員兩任以上第二款是擔任法官10年或檢察官10年以上"},{"start":2062.489,"end":2091.582,"text":"第三款是檢任,擔任檢任委員10年以上第四款是擔任大學教授10年以上第五款是專門職業,包括律師、醫師、會計師15年以上第六款是服務政治經驗或是從事新聞文化工作的相關活動那第七款是因應國家人權委員會成立以後讓我們對人權關心的議題的人士所以這七款裡面,其實這一次的提案有關徐巧芯委員等17人的提案"},{"start":2092.122,"end":2110.16,"text":"那有關刪除第一款跟第六款其實會造成相當的影響性過去在第四屆裡面我們有立委轉任的有六位在第五屆有五位在第六屆也有五位那另外跟第六款的部分在第四屆的時候有三位"},{"start":2110.7,"end":2132.179,"text":"那在第五屆的時候有七位那第六屆的時候有四位所以加起來第一款跟第六款將近佔了我們的比例大概到三成到四成左右如果刪除第一款跟第六款事實上會造成總統提名的限縮那這樣是不是妥適請大院佐以參考"},{"start":2134.12,"end":2157.091,"text":"有關針列第二條,限縮所謂的10年內不得參加政黨或政治活動。這個部分有兩個部分,第一個參加政黨活動是人民的集會結社自由,所以在監察委員擔任之前都可以參加,我們不願意有限制人民集會結社自由的現象。"},{"start":2157.771,"end":2158.091,"text":"其餘機關報告請參閱書面"},{"start":2183.863,"end":2184.564,"text":"提案說明及報告提案說明時間為3分鐘"},{"start":2214,"end":2242.167,"text":"主席好大家好那這次呢本案今天送進來的是有關於監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二的修正草案對照表那在現行的條文之下呢我們看到所謂的擔任監察委員的資格呢需要滿其中的一些資格那其中呢是要擔任立法委員任以上或是指甲式"},{"start":2243.707,"end":2244.288,"text":"議員兩任以上"},{"start":2261.255,"end":2278.589,"text":"這就等於是應該在五院行使中立、客觀權力的人他本身就已經有了政治形態跟意識形態的色彩這點我們覺得是沒有意義的所以我們就把它給刪除了"},{"start":2280.47,"end":2299.13,"text":"現行條文第6條:「清廉正職,富有政治經驗或主持新聞文化等事業,深遇著住者。」這一條也相當的不清楚什麼叫做清廉正職呢?比方說我們現在的"},{"start":2300.891,"end":2325.36,"text":"監察院長陳菊社會上會認為她是一個清廉正直的人嗎?她在氣爆案的處理上面她在過去很多議題的處理上面她是一個清廉正直的人嗎?所以這個完全是一個主觀的認定再來富有政治經驗如果我們今天的監察院是需要富有政治經驗的"},{"start":2326.46,"end":2348.409,"text":"那為什麼不當立法委員就好呢?有很多其他的重要的位置都是能夠用富有政治經驗的人來擔任但是監察委員對全民來說他是要糾舉跟監察所有現在政府裡面的相關弊害如果他本身有所謂的政治經驗"},{"start":2349.369,"end":2373.946,"text":"他難保他會用他的政治色彩然後來處理事情就會變成大小眼半藍不半綠或是半綠不半藍或者是主持新聞文化事業生育卓越者這也是一樣的我們知道現在很多的媒體雖然形式上是中立但是我就問大家每天有看三立電視台嗎"},{"start":2375.347,"end":2399.577,"text":"三立電視台是一個中立的電視台嗎近電視是一個中立的電視台嗎這些很明顯的不中立的電視台我們能夠說他主持了新聞文化事業身遇卓越嗎我們能夠來請李政駿來擔任監察委員嗎這個是荒天下之大廟所以呢我們希望就是說呢"},{"start":2402.757,"end":2424.025,"text":"針對這個所謂的我們現在所看到的一些其實有政治色彩的那這一點或許我們還可以更深入的去討論何為政治色彩那在我的這個想法當中所謂的政治色彩包含是你曾經擔任過有可能幾年內擔任過政黨的黨員然後呢你可能"},{"start":2429.567,"end":2455.118,"text":"參加了政黨的活動包含是競選黨部的主委跟相關的幹部那等等的這些東西當然我們可以再進一步的界定但是要界定參加何種活動屬於有政治色彩一點都不難所以我相信在這樣的條文裡面我們還可以做更多的討論"},{"start":2456.118,"end":2456.318,"text":"主席"},{"start":2484.944,"end":2506.063,"text":"提案說明及機關報告都已經進行完畢我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘非本會委員為4分鐘均不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位的黃國昌委員進行發言"},{"start":2519.987,"end":2524.811,"text":"會議A7的主席麻煩有請監察院林秘書長李秘書長秘書長好針對今天徐巧芯等17位委員所提出來的監察院組織法要把一些政治性的任命的資格把它消除這個修法的方向本席是同意的"},{"start":2546.107,"end":2562.599,"text":"但不過我覺得更根本的問題是什麼我覺得更根本的問題是當一年的預算到10億的監察院已經不再受人民信賴的時候這個我國憲政體制上面的盲腸"},{"start":2563.98,"end":2576.3,"text":"必須要被徹底的根除啊這已經不是監察委員啊積極資格的問題啊這個是一個根本沒有用的廢物監察院啊應該要把他廢止的問題啊秘書長您贊不贊成"},{"start":2578.241,"end":2605.441,"text":"這個要由修憲委員會來討論好當然是要由修憲委員會來討論嘛2020年您擔任總統府副秘書長的時候那個時候總統府成立一個廢考監專責平台我想要請教一下這個平台有達成任何效果嗎有協助第10屆第10屆有提出憲法修正案有提出憲法修正案對你確定嗎第10屆有啊包括廢除考監啊"},{"start":2606.946,"end":2611.899,"text":"最後出委員會的我們完成了沒有廢考協當然"},{"start":2613.92,"end":2636.677,"text":"對民進黨來講對國民黨來講上一屆的國會各自有各自的政治盤算人民不關心這件事啊人民關心的事情啊是如同剛剛秘書長所講的立法院什麼時候要有一個修憲委員會把這個考監廢除掉台灣民眾黨黨團的立場很清楚"},{"start":2637.808,"end":2666.766,"text":"監察院廢除我們希望這個會期跟其他兩大黨一起合作來完成這個重要的憲政改革的使命不過在這個之前修憲是立法院的職權是監察院的職權在這個之前監察院有監察院的職權繼續領納稅人的錢繼續在花工堂的同時我們當然期待監察院要有所作為嘛好那我們就進一步看了過去"},{"start":2667.967,"end":2689.128,"text":"光電弊案重生腐敗到讓人沒有辦法想像最近發生誇張的事情其實這也不是最近發生的事情這個只是因為為了要因應2024年總統大選刻意壓到選後才辦這個醜聞我去年談了非常的多了因細"},{"start":2690.816,"end":2706.49,"text":"大莊角、立洋集團的古聖輝、小谷在民進黨裡面是厚厚有名立洋集團的總部跟民進黨的黨部關係還匪淺但沒有關係我們依法論法就事論事"},{"start":2708.051,"end":2727.293,"text":"結果這一個英系的權貴力量集團古聖輝透過非法的方式騙到了台南七股的電酬許可那現在檢察官起訴檢察官起訴了以後大家才赫然發現腐敗的狀況還不只台南市政府的陳凱琳"},{"start":2728.254,"end":2742.75,"text":"腐敗的狀況連我們經濟部能源局光電組的組長全部都涉案這位林文信竟然還是2022年我們的模範公務員這樣的模範公務員監察院要不要啟動調查要不要啟動彈劾"},{"start":2745.74,"end":2763.706,"text":"跟黃委員報告有關光電案監察院前後調查過8個案那其中有關彰化縣大城鄉的鄉長還有苗栗山灣的鄉長還有台南市津巴局的局長還有後湖的鄉長都被彈劾就於您的部分你還少提了一個人嘛"},{"start":2764.571,"end":2788.367,"text":"就因細的陳凱...就因細的林哲琳嘛剛剛你在列...退嘛對好沒有關係啦針對林文信的案子監察院要不要啟動調查彈劾我們看委員委員如果認為說有新的證據他就可以提出彈劾新的證據就是針對林文信的這個案子之前有調查過嗎其他的光天案有對阿我說這個案子之前有調查過嗎"},{"start":2790.243,"end":2818.26,"text":"這個尚未結案這尚未結案嘛好我今天在立法院阿國會的殿堂公開呼籲阿監委醒醒阿醒醒阿該辦就辦阿趕快處理監察院一向該辦就辦下一個案子蘇丹紅的案子齁最近蘇丹紅的風波阿越滾越大到這個週末這個是今天報紙的版面"},{"start":2819.42,"end":2846.003,"text":"又出發了結果我們的食藥署署長吳秀梅說什麼說輸入的時間是在加強邊境檢查前加強邊境檢查前就是吳秀梅講了什麼講的2023年12月11號百分之百逐批查驗嘛問題是我們的食藥署跟台灣社會講2023年12月11號的時候有百分之百逐批查驗"},{"start":2848.429,"end":2875.429,"text":"實際上面的結果呢實際上面的結果是百分之百逐批查驗以後蘇丹紅的毒粉還是繼續流入的台灣市場我發現這個狀況以後我就覺得很奇怪所以我就質詢衛福部你們不是告訴台灣社會百分之百逐批查驗嗎逐批查驗有問題的在邊境什麼就要攔下來了嘛為什麼還會有蘇丹紅進來結果等到我在"},{"start":2877.028,"end":2905.37,"text":"立法院質詢了以後我們的衛福部還承認什麼承認說謊根本沒有百分之百啊主批查驗這個事情監察院要不要調查我們現在已經在調查中了需要多久這個要看委員的時間你們一般辦案的期限多久我們分為一般案件重大案件跟特殊重大案件這個是屬於什麼案件應該是重大案件所以重大案件是多久6個月6個月嘛沒有關係啊食安風暴不斷的擴大"},{"start":2907.087,"end":2914.207,"text":"衛福部所有主批茶葉現實上沒有今天我也是利用今天今天你們不用調查啦"},{"start":2915.632,"end":2940.359,"text":"因為已經都舉出來了啦萬福部也承認了啦監察院的調查到底細不細所有監察院的調查報告彈劾的結果在監察院的網站都有嘛全國人民通通都可以公平啦好 下一個問題監察院重要的原則是不是行政中立獨立行使職權沒有錯啊監察委員可以服選嗎不可以服選"},{"start":2942.369,"end":2968.891,"text":"不可以輔選嘛來我今天公開檢舉監察院行政中立獨立行使職權任職期間不可以從事政治活動剛剛政治活動秘書長也有提到嘛監察院相關的規範通通都有講什麼是政治活動那就奇怪囉去年年底的時候監察院院長陳菊跑去高雄的舊城教會為他的子弟弟兵輔選"},{"start":2970.731,"end":2993.829,"text":"我去年還沒有進去立法院的時候我公開質疑這件事情結果監察院院長陳菊說什麼陳菊說他受邀參加教會彌撒到場的時候沒有候選人在也不清楚前後是不是有候選人在問題是什麼12月30號那一天舊城教會根本沒彌撒根本沒有彌撒"},{"start":2997.728,"end":3027.211,"text":"是院長說謊嗎?報告黃委員 這個我們已經發過 院長已經發過新聞稿講得非常清楚他當然是沒有看到候選人 這個不是候選活動 這是教會活動現在 這個就是體制的問題了當監察院院長有沒有參加政治活動這件事情遭受到的質疑 這個時候是以監察院院長的新聞稿為準還是監察院應該要啟動智力調查程序"},{"start":3028.457,"end":3049.265,"text":"這個部分很清楚啊 院長已經說明他根本沒有看到候選人 怎麼會是助理我現在在講的 是制度上的問題喔陳菊說的陳菊他是被指控的人嘛他要怎麼講 那是他的說法嘛那如果按照你剛講的任何人 任何人被檢舉了以後他只要用他自己的說法就可以了"},{"start":3049.545,"end":3074.031,"text":"所以我的問題很簡單啦針對這一件事情針對這一件事情到底監察院的立場是監察院長發新聞稿就可以了還是要啟動自律調查這個部分我跟黃委員報告齁監察院依據憲法徵求條文第7條的規定必須超出黨派以外獨立行使職權另外我們有自律規範是那如果有人這個就是我的問題了對"},{"start":3077.491,"end":3087.148,"text":"如果我們的自律規範認為院長有這樣的 我們會經過紀律委員會來審酌嗎好 現在監察院啟動了自律的紀律委員會程序沒有"},{"start":3088.172,"end":3093.234,"text":"目前這一件沒有因為講得很清楚院長講得很清楚沒有關係阿今天大家見識到了監察院的標準阿如果涉案人是陳菊的話他自己發現我搞就算數了人也沒有見到也不是選舉活動請問你人在現場嗎請問你人在現場嗎所以我在講的是體制的問題嘛"},{"start":3113.923,"end":3119.505,"text":"到底要不要啟動紀律委員會調查紀律委員會調查還是院長說了算還是院長說了算對嘛我在問的問題非常簡單到底是監察院院長說了算還是要紀律委員會調查為什麼"},{"start":3132.009,"end":3151.934,"text":"高雄市政府裡面的公務員指正立例啊就是高雄市民政局的副局長蔡竅宏為候選人舉辦的輔選活動啊那天見面以前怎麼call人的誰先到誰後到要安排哪些輔選的人員帶著東西去人家都檢舉了嘛好"},{"start":3153.054,"end":3170.006,"text":"現在我的問題很簡單啦陳菊有陳菊的說法你說你沒有接到任何檢舉沒有關係今天我在司法法制委員會我在司法法制委員會我公開檢舉而且我提提案等一下提案的時候所有司法法制委員會的委員一起討論謝謝"},{"start":3173.726,"end":3188.586,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌委員那我們現在先做宣告今天有委員提出臨時提案那依本會往例依據上午11點處理若屆時委員正在詢答則該委員詢答完畢之後即進行處理臨時提案那接下來我們請審法會委員發言"},{"start":3206.424,"end":3230.563,"text":"主席各位同仁這個我這樣在我請這個監察院的理事長上台之前我先就今天的這個議程這個部分我跟這個委員會的同仁大家來探討一下我們今天安排這個審查這個徐巧芯委員等17人擬具的監察院組織法第三條之一跟第三條之二這個"},{"start":3234.335,"end":3260.178,"text":"以我們過去的慣例我至少在我的立委任內幾乎是我印象中我從來沒有看過說就一個委員的提案然後這個也沒有院版一個委員的提案然後也沒有跟其他案子並討論就今天一個重要我們委員會一個早上就討論一個委員的提案他甚至連其他委員的相同的提案也沒有了那這個"},{"start":3262.635,"end":3284.812,"text":"像這樣子的特別的議程安排我個人認為說第一個要嘛就是有時間上緊迫性就是這個法律效期到了我們這個時間上有緊迫性所以我們必須要趕快的安排要不然就是說這個議題已經有高度共識社會大家高度共識就是這個沒有什麼爭議的所以我們可以安排"},{"start":3285.572,"end":3300.095,"text":"不然的話我們這個包括在場我們本委員會的委員大家所提的這個法律案有這麼多我們的案子也沒有被拿出來說安排一個早上的議程就一個案子一個法律案來安排這部分我"},{"start":3300.856,"end":3300.956,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3330.936,"end":3332.057,"text":"李秘書長"},{"start":3347.618,"end":3349.819,"text":"我關心的是本委員會在排議程的時候怎麼會安排一個這樣子的案子"},{"start":3377.595,"end":3393.354,"text":"這個部分我們等一下在會議大家再來討論那我們今天既然已經排了這個案子我們還是要就這個案子來看一下說這個這樣子的修正方向到底妥適不妥適剛才這個秘書長在做報告的時候有提到說這個"},{"start":3395.616,"end":3417.385,"text":"這個我們監察院組織法之所以會有這個第三條之一是因為修憲的關係1992年修憲的關係對1992年修憲他把這個原本以前監察院是三個國會之一嘛對那修憲之後他不是國會了那他應該這個委員要具有一定的資格齁這部分那時候才定定的齁那甚至那時候連統一權的機關那時候還是國民大會"},{"start":3420.126,"end":3426.274,"text":"後來改成立法院應該是在2000年才改成立法院大概是2000年"},{"start":3429.335,"end":3449.512,"text":"所以第三條之一有這個我們現行條文裡面齁這個有這個五款總共有七個款有七款現行有七款啦齁有七款那這個七款齁這個基本上都是積極的資格啦齁它不是限制說什麼樣的人不得"},{"start":3450.313,"end":3470.185,"text":"不得擔任,他是積極資格啦,是積極的資格啦,積極資格就是有承認立法委員或是這個幾任以上啦,認本奉多少的法官檢察官啦,等等這些積極資格那現在我們今天所討論的這個委員提案,裡面就提出說要訂定消極資格"},{"start":3471.957,"end":3491.071,"text":"那另外在積極資格裡面他拿掉兩樣拿掉兩款拿掉第一款說承認立法委員一任以上或直轄市議員兩任以上生育著住者那拿掉了那個第六款的這個承認主持新聞文化事業生育著住者"},{"start":3492.328,"end":3505.197,"text":"剛才提案說明說要拿到第6條第6款的理由是說他認為這個主觀這個清廉正直富有政治經驗他認為說這個是主觀的認定沒有客觀標準"},{"start":3506.616,"end":3532.412,"text":"但是我認為說如果按照提案人這樣子的邏輯那恐怕一到七款全部通通要拿掉了因為裡面都有這個成績優異者這個生育卓著者這個在進入每一款都有那這個所謂成績優異也沒有一個成績標準沒有一個說當法官的成績標準這個教授十年以上生育卓著者我們也沒有一個生育卓著者的標準"},{"start":3533.208,"end":3558.227,"text":"所以如果說以這個為理由要拿掉第一款跟第六款那恐怕一到七款全部要拿掉了因為一到七款全部都有這種所謂生育卓著、青年正直這樣子的主觀判斷要件不是嗎我跟省委員報告這個提案裡面拿掉第一款跟第六款最主要是跟政治經驗有關他就主張拿掉那這個部分我們認為有疑慮"},{"start":3559.048,"end":3575.397,"text":"因為事實上過去立委轉任監委的事實上還不少那第二個第六款的部分我報告完第六款的部分所謂富有政治經驗或是主持新聞文化事業生育卓著第五屆的院長副院長都是以這一款進來的"},{"start":3577.058,"end":3600.89,"text":"阿如果這個拿掉的話恐怕對我們監察委員的多元化會有...這個...這個...這個...這個...民主黨你所看到的點跟我看到的點一樣啦齁這個我們實際上它會造成什麼樣的結果我們等一下來討論我們先就法理啦齁法理上我認為這個...這個拿掉這個...這個積極資格裡面的這個理由...立法理由我個人認為說它恐怕這個...如果以這個理由拿掉這兩款那恐怕這七款都沒有辦法成立啦齁"},{"start":3601.87,"end":3611.895,"text":"接下來我們就他所新增的今天所提的法案所新增的第三條之二也就是他訂定消極資格他這個消極資格他訂定說10年內加入政黨參與任何政治活動不得擔任立法委員就這樣"},{"start":3627.281,"end":3648.729,"text":"那這個什麼叫做參與政治活動呢?這個就沒有任何的定義了今天在這個舉辦政見會我去聽政見會算不算參與政治活動?我們高中的時候聽黨外政見會的時候背個書包遮住學號怕教官我們躲在樹底下陰暗的樹底下這個算不算參與政治活動?"},{"start":3650.524,"end":3662.905,"text":"對跟審委員報告這就是我剛說明的兩個部分第一個部分就是所謂10年內10年內不能參與政治活動事實上現在第一個他在這個法院沒有規範"},{"start":3663.891,"end":3686.326,"text":"事實上我們在其他的法令裡面關於政治活動有不是沒有規範但是每一個法規範政治活動不一樣其實規範很清楚就是必須依法律獨立行使職權嘛公務人員中立法第7條他就有規定政治活動什麼叫政治活動下列6款政治活動不得參與"},{"start":3688.067,"end":3717.207,"text":"公務人員中立法有政治獻金法也提到這個相關政治活動但它沒有定義所以它由內政部用函式的方式來定義我們監察院也有自律規範也有相關規定監察院紀律規範有對我們自己的自律規範也有相關規定但是今天所提的這個監察院組織法沒有這個規定而且它限制時間長達10年長達10年這長達10年的結果是什麼呢剛才秘書長已經提到了我們過去"},{"start":3718.968,"end":3732.115,"text":"過去我們所看到的這些監察委員不分黨派有的在社會聲譽卓著有的擔任院長、紀介院長、王健軒院長依照這個王健軒就不能當監察委員了張柏亞也不能當了對不對"},{"start":3734.527,"end":3749.02,"text":"還有孫大川副院長也不行然後再來監察委員陳建民、洪昭南、趙昌平這些瓦力斯、貝林等等這些人通通依照這個條款"},{"start":3750.711,"end":3775.339,"text":"都不能當監察委員我們為什麼會去訂立一個條款訂立一個從過去到現在我們大家認為說他適合當監察委員他不適合當監察委員他適合當監察院院長他不適合當監察院院長大家過去的評價社會的評價都跟這個提案完全抵觸那今天國民黨我安排這樣子的一個我覺得國民黨現在是多數黨"},{"start":3777.07,"end":3798.696,"text":"這種法案你們自己一個黨的委員提案然後把它排入議程排入議程意思就今天要通過這個我們做黨團應該我們副總召你應該要把關一下啦你應該把關一下你自己做多數黨你要有這個社會責任像這樣子的法案今天排出來審查我個人認為是大有疑慮的更何況"},{"start":3799.896,"end":3820.386,"text":"監察委員的這些積極資格的定定他最後並不是說符合這些資格的人都可以當監察委員錯!最後還必須經過本院行使同意權如果總統提名真的像我們今天的法案提案人講的是這樣的人那樣的人我們還是有本院的同意權在行使阿要不是說總統提名誰就是誰"},{"start":3821.536,"end":3838.843,"text":"所以我個人認為我們請本委員會的各位委員大家三思今天這個法案我們在審查的過程中如果沒有高度的共識我個人認為是說我們應該花更多的時間來凝聚大家的共識之後我們再通過這個法案以上好 謝謝接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":3854.884,"end":3856.797,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們監察院李秘書長"},{"start":3864.209,"end":3887.938,"text":"莫洋早我想今天我來接續剛前面幾個委員的一個答詢來救教你在我們整個憲法正修條文在第7條第5項規定監察委員必須去操縱黨派以外依據法律來獨立行使職權所以我們監察委員的自立規範裡面就去講得很清楚你在行使職權的時候要操縱黨派保持中立"},{"start":3888.858,"end":3915.208,"text":"這個都很合理啦憲法這樣的一個規定就是說你行使職權的時候你必須要去獨立行使這樣的職權跟黨派就無關了所以也就是說啊它憲法規範的意義是在講你當了監察委員以後擔任監委之後是你就必須要超脫黨派了要綁持中立了那在整個啊整個監察委員的一個產生啊確實啊"},{"start":3917.389,"end":3946.269,"text":"總統來提名啊總統提名完以後那也不是像剛剛秘書長講的愛誰就誰這個現在誰哪有那個哪有那個那個能耐也必須要經過立法院的最後的一個總統提名立法院同意同意這個同意的過程裡面我相信在立法院裡面一定都有很多很多的一個大家來對他過去的一個經驗或者說哪一些不適任的地方來就教於整個被提名人"},{"start":3947.09,"end":3949.096,"text":"所以我本期今天有一個看法就是說這個歷史啊"},{"start":3952.559,"end":3972.075,"text":"這個實在是真的是一面鏡子啊你說過去張伯雅在當院長的時候啊那其實呢就是按照整個現在今天被提出來本院的委員的提案裡面的第六款的部分啊你把它刪掉我想一想我如果是張伯雅會覺得說我張伯雅就一直看記憶體面啊我是怎麼張伯雅真的做得不好你再去把它看看那個這個第一款的部分啊"},{"start":3980.862,"end":3982.904,"text":"王建宣是過去在當監察院院長是這麼不堪嗎張柏堯過去在當監察院院長是這麼的不堪嗎秘書長為什麼人家會針對這兩款產生的監察院院長來把你們想要把它修掉這個你有沒有什麼感觸什麼看法呢"},{"start":4004.148,"end":4024.438,"text":"我想監察院的強調是我們的委員的多元性那所以我們希望讓總統提名或是立法院同意的時候我們的監察委員的組合會有比較多的多元性那刪掉第一款跟刪掉第六款會造成我們很大的影響我剛剛在報告的時候說明過了這會佔掉我們三成到四成之間的人數"},{"start":4025.658,"end":4053.101,"text":"所以這個限縮了總統提名權也限縮了我們的多元性我也不認為說總統就因為沒有這一些以後就找不到人我也不認為是說你這個把它刪掉到底合不合理到底合不合理我跟委員報告因為監察院是查公務員的違法實質那其實立法委員監督過政府所以他非常清楚所以立法委員轉任監委的其實都表現得不錯"},{"start":4054.896,"end":4061.561,"text":"監察委員不必負有那麼好像是那麼高的一個政治經驗比如說一定要當過兩任議員或者說曾經當過立委才可以來當監察委員這個本席倒覺得可以討論像這個部分倒覺得可以討論但是也倒不是說當過議員或當過立法委員就說你這就是賣料的你這就是不能做幹委這個就顛覆一般民眾的一個想法民眾的一個看法"},{"start":4085.817,"end":4110.095,"text":"立法院也做得很好啊有給一個民意的一個經驗我倒覺得這個不一定是壞事啊重點是說你當了監委以後民眾要看的是這個倒不是說你以前還沒當監委以前你是在幹什麼你像比如說啊你說參與一些政治活動啊政治上現在YouTube很多的大網紅啊那些大網紅搞不好有一天"},{"start":4111.256,"end":4111.496,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":4133.547,"end":4148.576,"text":"你是用什麼態度在行使你監察委員的職權呢?這個我覺得才是重點啦。如同專委所說啦,重點在你當了以後不要參與政治活動,而不是你當之前是什麼?其實這麼多年來喔,我倒也真的沒有看過啊。"},{"start":4149.653,"end":4150.994,"text":"什麼監察委員什麼人出來參加的輔選其實當了監察委員以後給你李軍你現在貴為秘書長你叫你去人家輔選的時候你也淡淡你知道嗎我沒有輔選我監察院以後就沒有輔選我意思譬如說"},{"start":4167.242,"end":4167.742,"text":"你會發現看起來是合理但很多時務上都不可能發生"},{"start":4185.452,"end":4185.532,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4200.683,"end":4210.046,"text":"本席倒是也持開放的一個態度但是在立法理由裡面說明裡面提到說參照公務人員任用法第28條對公務人員消極資格的一個認定這個我看起來就更奇怪了公務人員任用法第28條裡面去所談到的裡面"},{"start":4222.129,"end":4247.081,"text":"這一些來看本席來看的話很多可能對於其他監察委員整個公正在執法的一個公正性來看的話有更高的標準其實我覺得是好事我覺得是好事但是呢那其實啊這個在監察院這一些自律規範裡面啊真的是不夠嗎或者是監察院你自己的自律規範你的幹部都沒在準時委嗎"},{"start":4248.271,"end":4248.431,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4266.769,"end":4278.08,"text":"可能你也稍微會知道,周平憲就是說,說到侯友宜案件,我們整個,你覺得他在4月24號約談的新北市市長,"},{"start":4281.464,"end":4298.576,"text":"整個案子大家會看幾十年前的一個案子突然你們去取調查的時候正在藍軍比較有政治性的一個立場來看的話他當然會有所疑慮按照監察院調查案子的方式裡面常常有一些委託調查的"},{"start":4300.057,"end":4301.899,"text":"1989年世界台灣同鄉會總幹事羅裕士闖關遭到強制驅逐案"},{"start":4317.916,"end":4346.923,"text":"社會大眾可能會認為說這樣幾十年前的事情這樣你現在是來衝這條會不會有大家所以覺得政治性或針對性太高的問題請你回答我說明一下這個自動調查案有兩位委員提出的自動調查案那他們主要的目的是要追求真相因為有人檢舉嘛所以他們要追求真相那其實這個送到懲刑法院即使我們彈劾成功送到懲刑法院懲刑法院也都不受理了因為已經超過追溯時期了會不會被"},{"start":4349.704,"end":4367.755,"text":"所以這兩位委員有新聞稿說明說他們認為真正重要的是追查真相不追查真相才是對不起國民其實本席也倒認為像這種著名的一個案件有時候去做一個追查倒也不是說監察院是過度的一個政治性就像你說的"},{"start":4369.236,"end":4371.498,"text":"這個案子35年,可是有更久的、社會大眾更期待的那個44宗的臨災血案。這部分"},{"start":4389.451,"end":4409.847,"text":"經過40幾年我相信倒也沒有什麼敏感性的問題了因為畢竟國民黨過去的一個威權體制底下幹的特務幹的這種慘絕人寰的事情民眾也不會覺得意外但只是說怎麼樣讓他浮現出來對社會有一個交代對受害者"},{"start":4411.228,"end":4412.489,"text":"這個部分我的了解是有受到部分阻礙"},{"start":4437.628,"end":4442.678,"text":"主人喔?主愛喔?主愛喔?就是很多過去的資料沒有辦法再查到"},{"start":4443.891,"end":4471.294,"text":"可不可以簡單講一下,不然實在是你既然說就說一半,受到一些阻礙這個部分現在還有我們的委員繼續在調查當中那過去確實有很多資料檔案或是怎麼樣已經被銷毀了,所以還沒有完全查得清楚銷毀喔?銷毀的部分是對整個案情有重大影響的嗎?這個部分我不便在這邊透露"},{"start":4473.106,"end":4474.027,"text":"好 謝謝那呃"},{"start":4505.297,"end":4511.662,"text":"我剛有一個記者會所以我們接下來請翁曉琳委員暫時代理主席接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":4538.821,"end":4560.747,"text":"主席﹖在場的委員先進﹖列席的政府機關所長﹖官員﹖會場工作夥伴﹖媒體記者女士先生有請監察院李秘書長中委員好秘書長好請教秘書長就你對中華民國憲法本文的瞭解還有大法院的解釋在憲法本文當中監察院是不是國會"},{"start":4562.466,"end":4563.947,"text":"監察院本身過去是不是有很強的政治性格?如果他是國會的話?"},{"start":4586.411,"end":4586.811,"text":"監察院及考試院"},{"start":4603.032,"end":4615.711,"text":"還有司法院考試院有好像沒有有啦考試院還是要獨立行政職權我們在證據條裡面沒有寫到啦沒有寫到考試委員因為考試權考試用人有很強烈的行政權的屬性所以原來屬於國會權的監察權後來"},{"start":4618.675,"end":4644.385,"text":"不過奪了國會身份之後他就不再具有國會身份後他的調查權還是保留但是人員要求獨立行使權但是考試院的部分他有很強烈的考試用人的身份但是他在正確條文沒有要求他獨立行使權很清楚所以監察院的提名當中過去我們看到了你覺得民眾是不是還記得王健軒先生當過監委當過院長"},{"start":4647.094,"end":4672.133,"text":"他是第四屆的院長那民眾是不是也了解張柏雅女士擔任過監察院的院長他第五屆的院長那請問他們當時在被提名的時候剛剛前面講過他是根據哪一款被提名的王健軒是依照第一款他是立法委員對 那張柏雅女士是依照第六款他就是負政治經驗請問他們兩位的被提名的當下是不是已經失去了國會的這樣的一個"},{"start":4674.037,"end":4674.218,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4690.728,"end":4690.748,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":4711.653,"end":4712.793,"text":"持續來做出他們的主張。"},{"start":4740.401,"end":4741.721,"text":"法官法 直接要求法官退出政黨"},{"start":4770.231,"end":4784.824,"text":"有這個規定啊但是根據台師大的一位學者的研究到目前為止所有的三級三省的法院目前只有這樣子推估啊他說推估這些限職的法官95以上是國民黨黨籍"},{"start":4785.945,"end":4801.315,"text":"但到目前為止只有這些比例20 30 50的法官有發聲明退出政黨我想請教民主黨如果你覺得要確保我們監委跟司法院跟法官一樣可以獨立行使職權是不是退出政黨更為有效"},{"start":4803.068,"end":4818.543,"text":"這是一個可以考慮的方向這政黨現在有不同的規定對所以我當然是認為說要在嘴巴上去說修法已經定的法有沒有辦法落實到這個問題呢退出政黨更為乾脆好那我現在回過來要詢問因為目前監察院因調查"},{"start":4822.186,"end":4846.935,"text":"涉國家機密而須出境審查人有多少人目前你們自己監察院請教一下監察院所有的監察委員都是都是對然後還有沒有還有像我秘書長也是還有沒有公務員也有還有我們調查處有涉及國家機密的都在列管範圍裡面我之前也問過監察院行使調查權因為涉及國家機密出境必須受限制在兩岸條例當中有提到"},{"start":4848.336,"end":4875.115,"text":"這關於的第二款相關機關包括監察院從事涉及國家安全利益或機密業務的人員那麼我看到你們的統計呢離職未滿三年的在監察院還在列管的有12人政務人員有16人就包括全體的見聞是不是這樣好那我們看到國家機密保護法這些人出境啊要做機關搜查要審核包括什麼辦理國家機密事務的人員國家機密保護法你們列管了多少人"},{"start":4876.446,"end":4878.067,"text":"國家機密保護法列管44人"},{"start":4896.119,"end":4912.439,"text":"監察委員有保障、國家機密保護法、要求保密、洩漏民主黨紀律委員處理,請問你認為這些調查權的限制,這些附中到其他國家的限制是自我閹割還是對於監委行使職權的保障?"},{"start":4913.68,"end":4937.965,"text":"兩個部分我跟委員報告國家禁運保護法規定的非常清楚是有涉密的人員需要管制另外附中這個附大陸地區這個兩岸人民關係條例第9條就有規定了只要是公務員就受到限制公務員 那麼監察委員包括在內監察委員也包括在內 附中都要申請立法委員包括在內立法委員應該也是吧"},{"start":4938.365,"end":4964.599,"text":"那立法院的職員也包括在內公務員也包括在內公務員更是那請問到目前為止到目前為止立法院有沒有說你所知道有沒有去做這些人員的管制我不知道這是公務員的權責好那我來告訴你齁我直接齁點出啦在本月4月17日外交國防委員會前建國造的秘密會當中有黃人委員與會"},{"start":4966.257,"end":4985.072,"text":"但是他在4月26號陪同副總召去中國面見中國政協主席,你認為這樣的一個情況包括黃任委員在內,那天的會場工作人員是不是已經屬於涉密人員了?如果以監察院的標準,你們監察院會不會對這樣的人員感知?"},{"start":4986.244,"end":5015.112,"text":"立法院不是我們管轄的法院我說以監察院這樣的秘密會議你們會不會管制我們依據如果依據兩岸人民關係條例檢認實質等以上涉及國家機密這個都要附大陸都要申請好那我來告訴你立法院從未依法提列人員清單他也沒有去申報這是立法委員這些人員那如果立法院為提列負責沒有提列負責的公務員有沒有怠惰"},{"start":5016.032,"end":5016.253,"text":"有沒有待職"},{"start":5017.894,"end":5046.798,"text":"這個由立法院來決定不是立法院決定啊 如果有人提出跟監察院檢舉說立法院的負責該項業務的職員 公務員他有怠惰他沒有依法將這些涉密人員列入清單也無從申報無從管制請問監察院這個時候會不會需要調查如果公務人員的話我們會調查你們會調查 好 那我們現在先口頭跟你請報告跟提出希望呢 你們就這些期間以來立法院包括立法院在內"},{"start":5048.722,"end":5070.619,"text":"社密人員附中而立法院沒有落實法律的規定去進行管制的立法委員不是我們管制的對象我不是說立法委員管制的對象 我說有立法院裡面的公務員 如果公務對這些人進行管制但他沒有做 他就待乎職守 要不要接受監察院的調查這個我們可以調查"},{"start":5071.219,"end":5071.339,"text":"陳菊園委員"},{"start":5121.274,"end":5124.36,"text":"好謝謝主席主席我們有請李秘書長"},{"start":5128.721,"end":5154.043,"text":"秘書長早秘書長我們今天要審查的是有關我們監察院組織法第三條之一的這個及第三條之二的相關修正草案那也就是針對我們有關擔任監察委員的資格條件那根據憲法這個徵修條文第七條第二項鎖定監察院"},{"start":5154.924,"end":5177.335,"text":"我們設置有29位的監委其中一位為院長那另外一位為副院長那任期6年由總統提名經立法院同意任命之那也就是說監察委員的提名是總統在憲政上的權者那立法院在行使人事同意權之後便會在基於五權分立的這個架構下去進行"},{"start":5179.072,"end":5198.061,"text":"針對我們今天看到這個國民黨所提出要刪除第三條之一中的這個第一款也就是王建宣院長條款以及第六條第六款之中的這個張柏雅院長條款的草案我想到底是在檢視這兩位院長過去的這個"},{"start":5202.993,"end":5226.995,"text":"單任院長時的資格問題還是說對於這兩位院長過去的表現好不好的一個檢視那我想有沒有符合社會期待還是相關的議題應該是要回歸正面的這個方向來思考那我們從監察院所提供的書面報告裡面我們也可以看到"},{"start":5228.427,"end":5250.139,"text":"近三屆的這個監察委員當中是用這兩個條款加起來的可能就佔有三成以上剛剛秘書長您也大概回覆了那就秘書長您自己觀察來看是用這兩款的這個資格的監委相較其他的委員在工作上是否具有比較特別的優勢"},{"start":5252.441,"end":5271.962,"text":"比方說他們在政治上的這個豐富經驗可能會更有利於職權的行使您的看法我跟陳委員報告監察院重要的是委員組成的多元性所以我們會有一至七款這樣的這個積極條件的限制那其實最重要的是多元性"},{"start":5272.422,"end":5284.27,"text":"那你剛剛提到的就是說比如說擔任過立委我們認為他對政府的運作相當熟悉所以他在轉任監委以後沒有銜接上的問題他可以很快的進入狀況我們是有發現這樣的現象"},{"start":5288.857,"end":5311.327,"text":"在這個過程裡面我們也看到有學者提出可以參考這個考試院的修法經驗明定單一政黨委員不能超過總委員數的二分之一那秘書長您之前也是身為立法委員不僅也參與過這個考試院的這個組織修法過程那也曾對監察院組織法提出"},{"start":5312.747,"end":5324.976,"text":"這個類似的構想那我想再就教就是說現在作為監察院的秘書長您來看認為適不適合參考考試院的經驗來避免被提名人立場單一的可能"},{"start":5326.383,"end":5343.079,"text":"我們現在單一檔級沒有超過二分之一甚至連三分之一都沒有是不是有必要在組織法增加這一條我沒有意見我們尊重大院的決定另外有關我們新增第三條之二的消極資格限制"},{"start":5344,"end":5373.223,"text":"雖然利益是希望監委能夠超脫黨派那憲法徵修條文第7條第5項也有規定監察委員需超出黨派的以外依據法律獨立行使職權在任期中未就應保持公正中立不受任何的干涉但修正的條文中對於資格所設定的這個10年內有參加過政黨或參與任何政治活動者"},{"start":5373.843,"end":5402.612,"text":"尤其對於其中這個參與過任何政治活動沒有一個明確的界定不論是時間的長度還是範圍的這個廣度在實務上是否有難以去查證的這個現象兩個部分我跟委員報告第一個就是剛剛跟莊惠祥委員的對談裡面也有提到這件事情監察院重要的是你擔任監委以後不得參加政治活動所以你擔任監委之前那本來就是人民的集會結社自由"},{"start":5403.172,"end":5431.813,"text":"那第二個部分就是在三這二條裡面我們認為有困難為什麼有困難第一個就是十年內參加政黨這個我們還可以查但是有沒有參加過政治活動政治活動的定義到底是什麼他的範疇到哪裡比如說我去參加反核遊行算不算政治活動我去參加這個反滲透法的遊行算不算政治活動這個沒有明確的定義的話我們在執行上會有相當的困難對他這個溯及既往那你政治活動沒有明確的話"},{"start":5432.594,"end":5451.916,"text":"你去助選輔選還是剛剛秘書長您說的參加反核活動算不算助選輔選我們在監察院的自律規範裡面都有嚴格的禁止是好那如果我們參照這個行政中立法第5條之中第一項的規定公務人員得加入政黨或其他這個政治團體"},{"start":5452.717,"end":5470.371,"text":"但不得兼任政黨或其他政治團體的職務那公務員可以加入政黨但監委在被提名前10年都不能有黨籍那秘書長您認為對於政治活動的界定適合參酌監察院的自律規範這樣的規定是否能夠限縮到總統的提名權"},{"start":5471.713,"end":5482.393,"text":"我認為會限收到總統提名權而且一個人沒有辦法預測他10年以後會不會擔任檢委啊會不會被提名啊所以這個部分老實講實際上的執行上一定會有困難"},{"start":5483.84,"end":5507.151,"text":"所以我想民眾也是在期待我們所組成的監院是可以超然公正那得高望重的人士來伸張正義我相信這是所有民眾所期待的那在修法上還是尊重憲法賦予總統提名的權責在合理的情況之下我們來討論這個監委提名的問題我相信這樣才是符合民眾的期待"},{"start":5508.131,"end":5521.545,"text":"重點是提名權跟同意權所以不要限縮總統的權限那立委可以在同意權上表示同意或不同意好那接下來我想就教秘書長針對這個兒少性剝削的這個相關議題那在兒少性剝削的案件層出不窮"},{"start":5529.807,"end":5557.135,"text":"而貴院的人權會在本月10日曾發出新聞稿呼籲政府能夠正視兒少性影像犯罪的問題那恰好今天魏環也在聯席本委員會正在審查有關兒童及少年性剝削防治條例的修正草案那顯見我們社會各界對於兒少性剝削以及私密影像的杜絕相關的重視那"},{"start":5559.795,"end":5587.875,"text":"今天我想說因為目前國內不分草野急於共同解決這個問題我想請教秘書長就是我們櫃會的人權會如何在兒少性剝削相關議題上發揮最大的功能又如何來建議政府採取相關的措施來保障我們兒少的人權我跟陳委員報告我們的人權會現在目前正在進行系統性的調查有關這個議題那調查完以後我們會提出我們的建議那我們認為說"},{"start":5590.357,"end":5615.974,"text":"預計在今年的年底會提出來這個部分年底會有一個結構報告年中啦年中那我想還是對這個議題我們期待我們這個監察院的人權會能夠有更多的這個著力點尤其在人權會的委員們大多都是相關議題的這個專門研究或是貢獻者算是專家他們現在不合第七款不合第七款"},{"start":5616.314,"end":5641.679,"text":"那希望能夠盡最大的力量來落實我們兒少人權的保障不管在修法還是政策還是倡議工作或是提出建議這個我相信期待我們這個在監院及這個所有我們主管的這個帶領之下能夠各司其職讓我們一起來努力趕快來把這個問題解決我相信我們人權會提出適當的建議好 謝謝秘書長好 謝謝"},{"start":5646.886,"end":5674.892,"text":"好接下來請羅志強委員發言主席有請秘書長秘書長羅委員長秘書長我想先送你一句話有句話叫我失故我在我想送你的是我廢故我在你知道為什麼要送你這句話嗎"},{"start":5676.906,"end":5690.774,"text":"為什麼要送你這句話因為監察院很廢啦那監察院不但廢齁他最廢的一件事情就是兩個廢除監察院主張的人齁一個當院長一個當秘書長"},{"start":5692.298,"end":5718.632,"text":"我覺得這真的是一個台灣有史以來最大的政治笑話這不是笑話沒關係我沒有叫你回答我根本是連問你問題都懶得問我是覺得問你問題都覺得是很浪費時間因為我不知道你這個廢監察院的人站在這邊你到底要幫監察院講什麼你現在任期多久你做多久了我到現在半年半年嘛 對不對那你有這個勇氣接監察院秘書長我也是佩服你啦"},{"start":5719.86,"end":5720.601,"text":"陳菊當監察院長的第一個證件是什麼?"},{"start":5736.343,"end":5756.422,"text":"我瞭解阿你告訴我阿 什麼證件 非處監察院阿對阿 哈哈 非常好 真是 欸 秘書長我跟你講我今天就是欣賞你阿 是我欣賞你啦 他希望他是最後一任監察院院長 是 沒錯我跟各位講 陳菊真的是有眼見 但是在修憲還沒有完成之前我們還是有我們的憲法功能在我就要準備推修憲了啦 完成你們兩個的遺志 我不要講遺志對不起 詛咒你們啦"},{"start":5762.347,"end":5783.411,"text":"完全你們兩個的自願那我跟各位講沒關係啦不要緊張不要緊張我要跟你講我今天是表達對你的敬意對 表達對你的敬意陳菊說他想要當最後一任監察院長我這邊直接主張三路並進讓他成為最後一任監察院長好不好我沒有意見三路並進我告訴你很簡單第一個就修憲但修憲難度高沒有關係並2026年的地方首長選舉"},{"start":5793.608,"end":5815.087,"text":"並2022 地方首席委員讓全民一起來公決但是在修憲之前我告訴你啦 程序是你們的藉口啦 不用啦決心最重要啦搞八年非監察院 民進黨也沒做啦沒有關係啦 按照憲法是第一個做法第二個我告訴你 很簡單我告訴你 直接廢掉你的組織法啦"},{"start":5819.284,"end":5822.748,"text":"凍結監察院啦!凍結監察院是有權利的啦!凍結監察院!沒關係!第三個!我廢掉你的預算啦!凍結監察院啦!凍結監察院是有憲政權利的喔!山鬼並進!"},{"start":5834.341,"end":5835.001,"text":"請議理服人請議理服人請議理服人"},{"start":5863.905,"end":5881.142,"text":"你一定不會知道答案啦我在上個月跟國防部新聞要他給我20年你知道最近軍中自殺的案件很多嗎 對不對總知道吧那我剛要20年來看看說到底現在情況有多嚴重這個所知應該沒問題吧"},{"start":5890.086,"end":5918.204,"text":"這是你們跟國防部之間的對阿我告訴你阿國防部你知道他怎麼回答我阿他只有10年的資料他沒有10年以上的資料我告訴你他們就沒有監察院積極阿35年級的舊案小警員舊案也可以拿來重草我告訴你我佩服你們監察院積極認識阿只要今天清查在野黨的東西積極認識阿"},{"start":5920.049,"end":5940.581,"text":"高永成就是一個東廠代表這是你個人的看法沒有關係我就個人看法阿就像你的廢除監察院你到現在也是個人看法還舔有這個勇氣舔不知恥還可以接監察院的秘書長我超級佩服你啦請彼此尊重我不需要尊重一個廢除監察院的人啦"},{"start":5941.081,"end":5945.744,"text":"我根本不需要尊重廢除監察院我沒有這種勇氣去當監察院院長去當監察院的秘書長我佩服你啦我佩服你啦所以我要告訴你今天高永成你要幫他背書沒有關係你們都是同一路人啦很簡單"},{"start":5971.448,"end":5997.29,"text":"段宜康信誓旦旦曲棍球如果今天林昌明沒事我段宜康大段宜康我吞三顆曲棍球吞了沒吞了沒啊答不出來啊 不敢答啦因為這個是自所周知你絕對知道你不敢答而已沒吞啊沒吞 厚 厲害啦跑去找高永成啦 厲害啦"},{"start":5998.444,"end":6004.469,"text":"林志堅的論文案全國老百姓你們偉大的民進黨在檢討敗選計畫整個敗選計畫只提到一個名字叫做林志堅"},{"start":6026.624,"end":6049.69,"text":"所有敗選責任就是林志堅的抄襲連你的民進黨大民進黨都不敢幫林志堅背書你偉大的高永成你去追殺余政煌論文被剽竊的受害者世上之無恥沒有到這種地步的就發生在高永成身上我告訴你今天我會做臨時提案很簡單"},{"start":6056.755,"end":6072.109,"text":"你們監察院有紀律委員會吧有紀律委員會對不對放著高永成這個東廠紀律委員會也不會處理啦我知道啦沒有關係我們立法院齁今天為民喉舌我今天就提一個臨時提案"},{"start":6073.154,"end":6088.187,"text":"我知道你也不會做啦但是我們要跟選民交代啦我會臨時提案拜託你們監察院回去齁把這個高永成齁好好研究要不要送到紀律委員會啦沒關係我幫你講答案啦我要回答我堅持你紀律委員會幫你回答啦做不到了啦做不到了啦"},{"start":6092.348,"end":6095.449,"text":"監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案案"},{"start":6120.126,"end":6122.609,"text":"監察院還很東廠阿很強阿現在跑去查侯友宜35年前的舊案你去查好棒棒阿"},{"start":6132.557,"end":6158.933,"text":"好棒棒啦陳忠彥這麼明顯的敗壞關真你那11個監察員直接去跳樓算了啦連彈劾都不敢丟臉至丟臉到這種程度無以復加不敢打老虎不敢打蒼蠅老鼠屎也不敢打只會清算不同意見的人這種監察院廢到極點東廠到極點"},{"start":6171.261,"end":6171.562,"text":"主席秘書長"},{"start":6194.686,"end":6209.367,"text":"民務長好,民務長我想我接續剛剛羅志強委員的一個諮詢我想憲法徵修條文第7條第5項規定的非常清楚我們監察委員必須超出黨派以外來依據法律獨立行使職權"},{"start":6210.689,"end":6212.191,"text":"高永誠委員．具有濃厚政治色彩的言行及發言"},{"start":6228.308,"end":6254.06,"text":"譬如說江永誠監委他利用職權進行政治打壓在這個卡管案期間他調查台大前校長管中銘在新竹市這個前市長林志堅的論文案裡面他調查了當時他的抄襲的對象的調查官余政煌那麼在段宜康曲棍球案"},{"start":6255.08,"end":6266.419,"text":"竟然在檢察官不起訴了他所指涉的林昌敏前立委之後他竟然彈劾檢察官陳榮祥"},{"start":6268.479,"end":6269.48,"text":"陳詩夢上任監委調查辦律不辦欄司法官"},{"start":6290.735,"end":6303.609,"text":"種種言行政治色彩非常濃厚,完全違背憲法正修條文第7條第5項所規定的,監察委員須超出黨派以外依據法律獨立行使職權。"},{"start":6305.171,"end":6317.702,"text":"所以針對這些荒腔左絆的這些嚴刑舉止秘書長您認為這位高永成委員他的相關的嚴刑舉止有沒有違反相關的你們監察委員的職權行使的規範"},{"start":6322.137,"end":6335.49,"text":"我跟您委員報告如果這些案您列出來的這個都是經過這個正當的程序來查那至於委員要查什麼案委員本來就獨立行使職權我們沒有權干涉民主黨我想您這個在袒護在袒護他"},{"start":6338.712,"end":6358.039,"text":"委員要查什麼案我們本來就沒有權干涉正在監察院秘書長的這樣的一個高度的位置上面如果你的監委完全違背他的職權的行使規範我想你今天在這邊答詢你還彈劾他說是經過這個委員大家共同討論才來決定這個案子"},{"start":6360.62,"end":6383.858,"text":"如果這四個案,您列了這四個案,確實是委員都討論過但是是他提案的嘛,是幹事委員提案的那委員要提什麼案,我們本來就不能干涉是沒有錯,但是您不能干涉,但是事後來檢視他這些行為完全違反相關的監察委員的職權的一個規範那您認為監察院要如何做自律"},{"start":6385.287,"end":6395.907,"text":"如果有證實他違反相關規範的話我們會有紀律委員會但是這幾個案這四個案我告訴委員的就是這四個案確實依照我們監察院的程序來處理"},{"start":6397.798,"end":6425.185,"text":"民務長我還是要在這邊社會觀感非常不好還是要呼籲民務長您還是要去正視還是要去正視委員這些荒腔走板的這些職務的行使我想這個大家都覺得社會上普遍華然怎麼會有這樣的監察委員獨立行使職權跟立法委員一樣你獨立行使職權行使出來的是這樣荒腔走板"},{"start":6426.105,"end":6450.248,"text":"監察院在秘書長的位置上面高度上面你不用去約束他嗎我沒有辦法約束他您客氣了您是幕僚長但是我想大家心知肚明您有沒有權限去告訴這位監委您要去約束自己的原型舉止來我們再來看對Face議題他的發言"},{"start":6451.984,"end":6465.055,"text":"高永誠監委說,透過憲法法庭來廢除死刑,施司法權針對死刑制度進行實質審查,整體實現司法獨立的存在價值,正在於反抗多數的精神。所謂的司法獨立存在的價值,正在於反抗多數。"},{"start":6477.134,"end":6502.959,"text":"您贊成嗎?這句話你贊成嗎?我跟您委員報告第一個我不是念法律的我是念政治學的那第二個部分這個國家人權委員會被司法院憲法法庭指定為鑒定機關那以國家人權委員會的立場表達得非常清楚國家應廢除死刑保障生命權及人性尊嚴並修護犯罪創傷人保護與被害人的正義這個才是我們真正的重點所在"},{"start":6503.459,"end":6532.228,"text":"所以我現在想說一個監委對司法獨立的精神他講說他的價值在於反抗多數部長我想您對法律也有涉獵啦您父親也是非常有名的法律學者是這樣這句話以你站在一個政治學的一個的博士的一個角度你來看對嗎反抗司法司法存在的價值在於反抗多數啊"},{"start":6533.187,"end":6550.639,"text":"4月23號有對針對這個部分有很多的討論每個人都有不同的見解這個就是憲法法庭為什麼要搖個電做不同的事我簡單問你好了施法獨立何謂施法獨立依照你個人的瞭解你簡單回答"},{"start":6550.939,"end":6575.902,"text":"就是不受黨派的約束不受其他的約束自行來依照法律來做自我的判斷我想其實司法獨立的重要的精髓就是說法官他在做判決的時候或在做審判的時候不受任何外力的干涉及影響嘛我同意所以跟他現在他講說他本身是律師欸他怎麼會講說司法獨立的存在價值在於反抗多數"},{"start":6577.103,"end":6604.506,"text":"法官可以反抗多數法官本於他的一個對法律的一個認知以及實現正義這樣子指的一個理念去做出司法獨立的一個裁判不受外力任何的干涉怎麼會去把它去把它影射到去把它牽涉到司法獨立存在的價值在於反抗多數我想這個真的是荒腔走板的發言一個監察委員會做出這樣子的一個言論"},{"start":6606.141,"end":6627.115,"text":"委員長你認為他這樣的說法你接受嗎?你接受嗎?真的你接受嗎?我再一次跟您委員報告高雄城委員這一次是代表國家人權委員會去憲法法庭的不是代表監察院這個要分清楚那國家人權委員會本來就不是我幕僚長管轄的範疇我們只負責他的人事跟預算"},{"start":6627.935,"end":6649.328,"text":"委員長當然您是一直在就相關的他的法定職權您在做區分其實我想要表達的是說畢竟他是監察委員他也因為監察委員他才可以擔任他因為本身是監察委員他才可以擔任這個人權文匯的這個委員嘛所以這種雙重角色之下他去"},{"start":6650.97,"end":6661.169,"text":"這個去代表這個人權委員會去做這樣的一個完全違背司法獨立價值的一個發言這種監委還有存在的必要嗎"},{"start":6661.909,"end":6662.069,"text":"主席"},{"start":6692.189,"end":6698.274,"text":"相關學者對學術的看法對學術的傲慢認為學術看法對的其實不然任何政策的擬定都順從民意在實定法就有實行相關規定"},{"start":6715.066,"end":6743.075,"text":"所以你大法官你要去了解說現在民意的走向是怎樣為什麼我們當初刑法要有死刑這樣子的一個立法還有我們現在立法政策是怎麼樣立法政策難道不用考量我們的民意嗎要不要我想您當過民意的立法院所以我們在擬定相關政策的時候您沒意見嘛就是說要去對相關民意要做調查才擬定相關的政策嘛這麼高的民意"},{"start":6744.4,"end":6746.042,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6758.174,"end":6776.921,"text":"去講說這個為何一定要順從民意我想這離民意太遠了啦所以我才會講到說監委高永成又附和他去講這樣子的話司法獨立的存在價值在於反抗多數反抗多數的民意跟民意對幹"},{"start":6778.973,"end":6803.627,"text":"李委員我沒有辦法對每一個人講的每一句話所以嘛所以我在想說我們還是希望監察院對於相關的監察委員的嚴刑舉止在這個不管是公開的啦或私下的啦藝術長您都有這個責任去告訴他們去約束他們做監察委員要有個監察委員的一個樣子啦"},{"start":6804.727,"end":6832.583,"text":"想大家都希望你看以前你也主張監委要監察院要廢掉為什麼你也會有這樣的一個主張就是你也看不慣有些監察委員相關的言詢舉止真的叫做離譜至極完全沒有去尊重自己的監委的一個角色我還是衷心的期盼您現在貴為秘書長真的要多多的去跟這些監察委員做出正確的一個"},{"start":6833.123,"end":6833.163,"text":"吳宗憲委員"},{"start":6870.043,"end":6898.995,"text":"好 謝謝 那我們麻煩秘書長吳委員早好 秘書長你好秘書長我上一次跟您質詢的時候有跟您提到就是幾個案子嘛那主要就是提到當初檢察官陳榮祥被監察委員高永成當時彈劾他的那個案子那"},{"start":6900.754,"end":6924.078,"text":"當然當時秘書長有說這個是監察權的獨立行使那當時秘書長也有說會回去跟他們至少講一下這件事情那我覺得這段時間以來那其實朝野都一直有人提說希望廢除監察院或者是讓他就是暫時不運作我想一直都有這個聲音出來那"},{"start":6928.4,"end":6953.605,"text":"這段時間呢我覺得其實這個也是秘書長以前的核心理念啦我想這應該沒講錯啦那這段時間我覺得看起來有一些監察委員還是置意妄為甚至淪為政府打擊議席的東廠當然我現在先說個別委員秘書長我絕對沒有說監察院或說秘書長您而是就個別委員"},{"start":6954.825,"end":6964.513,"text":"監察委裡面有我非常非常尊敬的長官我們到現在都還是維持非常良好的關係所以我的意思是指個別的委員那我想請問一下"},{"start":6967.182,"end":6984.057,"text":"秘書長您之前的一些修法還有相關的政見其實我這樣直接回過頭去看您臉書的一些內容我覺得都非常的認同那是不是說我們在廢除監察院之前我們應該是共同來找出這些監察院裡面的這個害群之馬"},{"start":6985.198,"end":7005.516,"text":"要跟他溝通或是甚至說是不是監察院內部也要思考送紀律委員會之類的一些做法讓某些委員能夠知道自己做法不一定是對的那我想請問一下秘書長你有沒有同意本席的看法就是將來能夠跟本席一起對抗那些比較置意妄為的委員監察委員"},{"start":7007.537,"end":7018.284,"text":"監察委員獨立行使職權我們很難對他有什麼樣的動作但是我以個人的經驗我有時候會跟委員做一些討論我們會是做建議這樣"},{"start":7022.513,"end":7045.782,"text":"這是您之前的臉書嗎?當年您在擔任立委學長的時候,監察院的部分也是提了很多自己的意見我當立委的時候有提過修憲案,我主張被除監察院所以我剛剛說,我有去看了一下民主黨您之前的一些看法"},{"start":7048.543,"end":7068.512,"text":"憲法徵修條文第7條第5項其實他講得很清楚監察委員必須超出黨派之外依據法律獨立行使職權但是呢這段時間我就說啦高永成委員光這一位委員他一路以來從陳榮祥的案子那個案子我覺得我到現在"},{"start":7070.313,"end":7091.466,"text":"當時這個案子發生的時候我還是檢察官那我必須跟你們報告一件事情檢察官協會非常不諒解這件事情檢察官協會是代表全國上千位的檢察官他非常非常非常不諒解這件事我是檢察官的一員我也非常不諒解這件事情我覺得高雄城委員這個監察委員是完全"},{"start":7093.223,"end":7122.364,"text":"我可以說是毀憲亂政啦套一句柯總召的說法叫毀憲亂政憲法徵修條文第7條第5項明白的說監察委員要超出黨派但是這位高永成委員總是替某些特定人打擊異己這是非常非常不應該這個才叫做毀憲亂政當然特定監察委員不是全部的這段時間尤其是陳榮祥的案子"},{"start":7123.823,"end":7133.696,"text":"陳昌祥所做出來的做法區棍球這個案子不管一省二省三省跟再省的法院的判決"},{"start":7135.103,"end":7135.223,"text":"堅查委員"},{"start":7165.764,"end":7183.243,"text":"陳榮祥的案子之外﹖卡管案他也出現了﹖林志傑論文案的余政煌他也出現了﹖再加上前兩個禮拜的侯友宜的案子他也出現了﹖真的難以想像一個監察委員放著政事不幹這段時間的問題呢﹖"},{"start":7185.879,"end":7186.139,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7204.068,"end":7226.601,"text":"小警察 我不懂這個意思啦至少我自己在指揮偵辦案件的時候我非常的清楚偵辦的警察到某一個轄區去偵辦處理案件執行案件的時候都會知會當地分局到場協助那他們到場協助都是做一些知違末節的事情甚至只是維護交通他們不會去做真正案子的核心的事情"},{"start":7227.381,"end":7255.7,"text":"就你今天把一個到場支援的警察你很的修理就其他帶隊官指揮官承辦的人你都不找那你這個很難不讓社會大眾相信說你不是政治的打手啊那這個也間接的傷害監察院在人民以及在我們心目中那個超然的地位所以我認為他的這個做法我到現在還是覺得他沒有更壞他沒有最壞只有更壞啦"},{"start":7257.267,"end":7280.173,"text":"高永成這個傢伙沒有最壞只有更壞在繼續無暇限的在搞他的政治打擊我請教我請教那個秘書長之前高永成委員他在偵辦那個請問那個陳榮祥的案子的時候他對檢察官曾經說你不幫我解決這個問題就是逼我要彈劾你請問你認同一個監察委員這麼高職位的監察委員對"},{"start":7283.374,"end":7299.4,"text":"被調查人講這句話合理嗎?監察委員在約群的時候講什麼話,我沒有辦法負責任。不是要,不是,報告秘書長,不是要你負責任,是我請教你,你覺得合理嗎?我也不適合去做任何評論啦。好,那我尊重秘書長的想法。"},{"start":7300.38,"end":7322.115,"text":"但是我個人認為這個完全不合理就像法官檢察官在問案的時候你口氣不好或罵髒話常常都被懲刑後來被處分我覺得你到那個位置就有那個位置的樣子而不是說到那個位置你就開始講一些有的沒有的甚至他對台大調查台大的那個卡管案的時候他也是說"},{"start":7323.376,"end":7352.123,"text":"你們不要敬酒不吃 吃罰酒我覺得這個都不應該監察委員怎麼會做這種事情卡寡案查的好像是違法兼職對 沒錯 是兼職的時候但是我覺得不管如何當時他就跳進去查要求他們出具兼職的報告嘛 對不對然後他在那個案子調查的時候講那句話我覺得也不妥就像我警察官我再辦一個殺人案就算這個人真正是殺人犯監視自己底下殺人我們也不會去對他講一些有的沒有的啦該怎麼查就怎麼查的一切是依照程序來"},{"start":7353.303,"end":7381.605,"text":"所以我認為這個是不對的齁那再來就是我想請教一下以前那個陳思夢阿他也曾經講過說他要去他要去辦那些什麼他要去查那些什麼專辦律不辦懶的那些法官齁你那那好吧我本來想請教你說你認為這句話合不合理我想說秘書長你的意思應該還是不便發表意見嘛對委員的任何發言我們都不便做評論那陳思夢委員現在也不在監察院啦是"},{"start":7382.807,"end":7407.695,"text":"好 那是齁 這個畢竟這個監察它是一個還是有連貫性的啦那我的意思只是說其實我一直不認同監察委員他利用執行監察職務的這個時候去做一些或替某些人或某些政黨去做一些服務我想今天不管誰執政我想秘書長您的想法一樣您當年的想法也是這樣子嘛好 那我們看一下齁 其實"},{"start":7410.444,"end":7437.131,"text":"最後我們看一下您的臉書其實我覺得我們如果說把這些一些東西我們稍微改寫稍微思考一下其實跟我們現在的說辭跟您當年臉書的內容其實一模一樣我們都認為監察權不應該置意妄為甚至我們認為監察院根本就應該要廢掉或停止它的運作否則"},{"start":7438.411,"end":7454.108,"text":"這段時間以來你看這些離譜的監察委員他們這麼的自願自甘作為政治的打手但是在對於民生有重大關聯性的案子卻都看不到他們的身影"},{"start":7455.35,"end":7456.491,"text":"監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案"},{"start":7476.024,"end":7501.002,"text":"我必須講一個 這個只會讓監察院跟監察委員在人民心目中的印象越來越不好就像我很討厭檢察官法官裡面一些害群之馬他利用辦案子 利用司法在做自己想做的事或為特定的公司 為特定的政治人物護航這件我也看不起 有機會揪出來我也狠狠的修理他們但是監察委員也是 立法委員也是 我覺得我們"},{"start":7502.143,"end":7527.686,"text":"還是必須依據憲法的設計在做我們該做的事情我現在的想法跟秘書長您當年在擔任立委的時候您的想法其實我現在想法還是一樣阿我現在想法還是一樣阿那只是我對委員的不便做任何評論啦是 謝謝秘書長認同啦但是我可以接受您說不便做任何評論因為我可以理解獨立行使監察權的這個概念"},{"start":7531.483,"end":7544.651,"text":"最後我還是麻煩一下秘書長今天能夠再把這個話能夠帶給高委員就是跟他講就好我沒有要干涉你們我們也無權干涉監察院內部怎麼運作但是"},{"start":7545.748,"end":7565.08,"text":"真的是苦口婆心麻煩秘書長告訴高委員凡事我覺得適可而止就好因為現在資訊很發達你今天做一件事情合不合理適不適當我覺得全民都會有眼睛在那邊看對當年的陳榮祥這樣對後來的侯友宜這樣我做證我在旁邊看我都看不下去"},{"start":7566.241,"end":7566.381,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7588.832,"end":7588.992,"text":"吳宗憲委員"},{"start":7630.23,"end":7652.178,"text":"下一位請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員下一位請黃建斌委員發言謝謝主席主席有請我們秘書長"},{"start":7657.868,"end":7665.857,"text":"黃委員早 秘書長你好 你好 你好今天我第一次來跟司法委員會 這邊想要請教一下秘書長我記得秘書長是我們立法院的前輩 這人在嘉義嘛 在做委員選是 嘉義市 秘書長在做委員選對我們高三年有很多不一樣的見解"},{"start":7676.589,"end":7700.206,"text":"本席作為質詢很好的一個養分有些理念跟想法我想可以拿來這邊跟我們的秘書長來就教一下一個簡單的問題先請教案秘書長先請問我們監委高雄城林玉榮為了調查三五年前市台會總幹事羅毅市回台遭到強制驅離這個案件就上週我們約談了新北市長侯佑儀到場說明"},{"start":7701.847,"end":7718.513,"text":"原來我們的行政院議長陳先生有出來回應說審查院本來就是憲法規定的憲政機關對於各政府機關的案件都有調查的責任跟義務甚至行政院有很多案件接受監察院的調查"},{"start":7720.087,"end":7730.599,"text":"這個沒有特別追殺的情況是外界過度的解讀希望大家尊重監察院調查成績結果我請問請教秘書長你跟母親當然一定會這樣講法"},{"start":7734.402,"end":7753.756,"text":"這件事我們有做過了解,就是說有人檢舉,檢舉侯友宇登堂時,一些以前的警察有動手做非法的動作,所以他們做了解,監察委員怎麼調查案件,我沒有任何的評論是的,本席要請教秘書長的是他的說法"},{"start":7754.597,"end":7770.014,"text":"我當然相信我們一定說的那一部分是對的,包括說監察院本來就是依照憲法規定的憲政機關對於各個機關都有調查的徵根因,這是確實的沒有不對但是院長不應該來代表監察院發言吧,他又不是監察院的發言人"},{"start":7770.968,"end":7796.835,"text":"一個行政機關 行政院 人家在問行政院院長嘛 行政院院長說監察院獨立行使職權啊是啦 秘書長 我是覺得說 行政機關跟監察院應該 它不能代表監察院來回答就是這樣子的情況齁 我覺得這樣人民不會相信 監察院的發言人是誰啦是 所以我要請教秘書長的意思是這樣嘛好 電話 我想人民不相信司法不是第一天的事情那 人民會相信監察院嗎"},{"start":7798.288,"end":7819.17,"text":"人民也有很多不相信立法院的是的 本市認為有很多優秀的進展我相信其實監察院很優秀也很認真地監察我們這個政府那這個無庸置疑啦 不過有時候真的遇到政治事件會監察院好像真的瓦解變成一個人一樣我想會做出一些意想不到的事情"},{"start":7821.471,"end":7847.503,"text":"那至於這個部分我想身為最大幕僚長我是要請教我們民進黨監察提名的這個監察院在第五屆第六屆的數據來看人民書狀案件的變動分析第五屆是每個月平均一千一百到七件第二屆是一千兩百二十七件相較第四屆的一千八百五十八件數字在減少那這個電話報告平均每個月"},{"start":7848.123,"end":7871.02,"text":"只有21.6件那我們這樣子看來每個月相較前幾屆每個月都是15件以上你講他的案件越來越小他一直在調查是不是越來越少沒有喔 調查案件沒那麼少喔我前面就報告過了上次報告過調查案件第一個他每一個案至少有兩位委員有時候甚至三位委員調查所以這個不能用純粹用數字來計算第二個我們整個的案件數並沒有減少感謝比爾主任的說明謝謝你的說明"},{"start":7876.504,"end":7887.071,"text":"比上個月增加了2799件喔是好我為什麼會提到這些當然這都是數據上啦那另外就是我們社會的觀感上面齁我想要建盟秘書訂的說你看在"},{"start":7889.249,"end":7908.503,"text":"太原監獄爆發的重大弊案這件事情,安行爆起永和區歡樂聯盟KTV槍擊殺人案件的吳哲敏遭到判無期徒刑,入獄服刑15年之後,陸續的申請在第7次的時候,他7次假釋都被駁回,2021年的時候竟然有爆發篡改這個假釋的分數讓他獲得出獄。"},{"start":7910.464,"end":7926.577,"text":"我想這個不是單一的案件 當然不管是不是這個案 監察院這一系列的作為都會讓人民懷疑 包括我們城中宴的性招待案 檢方以這個查無不罰 貪汙罪內不足 所以這個事情不代表公院可以接受性招待案"},{"start":7927.077,"end":7931.942,"text":"副秘書長,你說的是兩回事,陳中宴案在我們是彈劾案沒有過,沒有過的理由就是欠缺證據能力,還有一些台南地檢署,台南地檢署沒有起手遷截這個案子,我們另外有委員在調查中副秘書長,本席要發言的是民間的觀感,人民的觀感問題"},{"start":7949.38,"end":7949.76,"text":"委員徐巧芯"},{"start":7969.138,"end":7971.041,"text":"我們都是憲政機關共同努力來認同人民對我們各個憲政機關有信心這個是重點"},{"start":7985.542,"end":8001.111,"text":"謝謝秘書長的說明那本席利用最後的時間回想一下我們也很懷念當時的李俊祐委員你當時在做委員時你說監察院沒有存在的必要性如果臨時會沒有辦法來修憲那至少先考監兩院來封存"},{"start":8003.172,"end":8029.612,"text":"沒有辦法封存這個四字第632號有寫是的秘書長我們只是希望秘書長能夠秉持當時我跟當時的意見一樣啊修憲是立法院的權限啊立法院修憲廢除我們就立刻廢除啊相信秘書長先把四字第632號解的非常詳細啊不能因為單一不行使職權然後讓這個憲政機關停止運作啊"},{"start":8030.252,"end":8057.759,"text":"謝謝秘書長這麼詳細的聰明,我們還是要希望秘書長記得當時那一塊,以這個土地正義及公平的努力的委員、議長委員。謝謝委員,謝謝秘書長,感謝秘書長你今天的答詢,感謝你,謝謝。謝謝主席,謝謝。好,接下來我們請洪孟凱委員,洪孟凱委員,洪孟凱委員,好,那下一位我們請牛許廷委員發言。"},{"start":8065.957,"end":8095.24,"text":"謝謝主席啊 秘書長有請啊 林委員好秘書長 為什麼今天要提修法案啊這個是徐巧芯委員的組織法修正案對 你覺得為什麼我不知道你有沒有看法律法條的內容對 但是這個法案我們有意見你也有意見 你不能講你不知道啊我告訴你 今天修這個法案就是希望監察委員的任命啊可以正常一點去降低政治的色彩 對不對你同不同意是一回事啊 但你總知道這個概念吧"},{"start":8096.084,"end":8110.92,"text":"好不好那你不要講你不知道嘛我跟你講今天會談到修法用這種方式就標準要自律不成只好他律理論上來講就是立法權跟監察權應該要分進合集好好來監督政府嘛雖然秘書長你本人對於監察院的存廢"},{"start":8111.34,"end":8111.92,"text":"監察法第26條修正案"},{"start":8136.952,"end":8140.734,"text":"監察法26條有更明確的規定比如說他現在沒有規範調查報告那我們希望這個有比較明確的規定這個部分我們希望在這一次先討論這個人權專章以後我們再整理我簡單講一下三個重點"},{"start":8160.262,"end":8165.744,"text":"1.調查權行使時遵守正當法律程序及符合比例原則2."},{"start":8165.744,"end":8166.984,"text":"調查報告要有法律位階依據3."},{"start":8166.984,"end":8168.165,"text":"資訊透明有公共利益者應公開110年你們的全面談話會"},{"start":8178.968,"end":8197.979,"text":"本來應該講是監察院自己提嘛去提升自己的職能這方向是很好的可是你們開了全院談話會之後結果突然之間這法案不見了說撤回阿其實秘書長你會還原一下當天為什麼是誰提了說要把這案子撤掉的這個我那時候還沒有來我不太清楚你那時候還沒有來那你現在有沒有去了解一下當初為什麼欸你曾經做立委要提這樣的方向"},{"start":8198.459,"end":8222.934,"text":"後來自己監察院自己把他自廢武功你現在做秘書長你走過去了解一下我剛說明得很清楚我們這一次監察法的修正我們重點擺在人權專章因為我們國家人權委員會成立了三年多我們希望趕快把這個職權行使的部分確立下來那至於監察法其他部分的修正現在也有很多委員有不同的提案我們一併來整合一併來整合那本席還是要求一下你們去了解一下啦"},{"start":8223.294,"end":8245.591,"text":"當然你現在有現在的節奏這我願意尊重但你以前發生的總要了解一下哪一個監察委員這麼大膽說要撤回這個可以讓監察權行使更完整更有公信力的法案現在大家社會上面對的問題就是大家對監察院也失去信心了對法律也失去信心了這其實是一個很大的社會危機嘛那之所以大家會對監察權失去信心某一些層面當然就是因為部分的監察委員政治辦案嘛"},{"start":8245.951,"end":8260.474,"text":"比如今天大家去提的這個高永成監委非常誇張嘛段宜康當初講林昌敏這曲棍球案檢察官認為不涉案所以不起訴處分這個監察委員調查該案的時候竟然施壓重新起訴啊對不對"},{"start":8261.755,"end":8282.854,"text":"然後還違反一事不在理的原則再次彈劾卡管案的時候高永辰監委也沒有缺席啊對不對 調查台大校長臨選要求全校教授兼職資料還說出禁酒不吃吃罰酒這樣子囂張跋扈的話比起當初講出這個促轉會是東廠的這張天青可以說是毫不遜色然後"},{"start":8284.995,"end":8312.787,"text":"這個論文案重創民進黨的選情高永成也對這個余政煌發動政治清算那最近講到侯友宜市長30幾年前的舊案不說啊相關當場的這個指揮有指揮權的人不去約尋只約尋當初只是刑事組組長侯友宜這些凡此種種喔都讓大家覺得這監察委員政治辦案的這狀況是很誇張的嘛好我現在要問啦現在處理這樣子政治辦案有色眼鏡這樣子你們的自律機制是什麼"},{"start":8313.467,"end":8338.893,"text":"你們內部有沒有檢討 有沒有一些機制去講這個東西好像有點有違當初公平的原則你們內部有沒有做過這樣的討論我跟委員報告 監察院獨立行使職權所以如果他是依照程序來 而且這些都走過程序那我們當然不會走自律規範那如果有其他同仁有認為說確實影響到這個部分那我們當然會走自律規範那現在有沒有 這幾件事情新聞都鬧得蠻大的"},{"start":8339.853,"end":8365.359,"text":"目前高永成委員是每個人對他的評價不一樣啊每個人對他評價不一樣所以有問沒有嗎沒有沒有這個現在沒有討論好對這個都是依照我們的程序來相關處理的好這個喔這個秘書長過去做立法委員的時候曾經也是質詢監察院的秘書長嘛是有一樣的只是位子站的不一樣對不對你曾經質詢啊我我我這個原話轉述啊說如果立法院啊"},{"start":8366.339,"end":8379.686,"text":"討論完之後,當初針對的是那個王建宣院長那個案子嘛,就是說,如果我們討論,立法院討論完之後,說王建宣嚴重的破壞官僧,要求監察院啟動彈劾,也就是自清的話,會不會處理?欸當初他們回答是什麼?"},{"start":8381.311,"end":8400.786,"text":"你當初在這裡質詢監察院秘書長那個當初被詢的叫陳鋒義當初你有問過這樣的話嘛對不對那他當初的回答是什麼我不記得了你不記得了那我今天問原話問你啊如果我們今天立法院討論完之後因為高永成這個政治辦案實在太明顯了我們認為他嚴重破壞官僧要求監察院彈劾的時候請問你們怎麼處理"},{"start":8402.544,"end":8419.555,"text":"監察院的自律規範是我們的自律規範啊,如果監察委員認為他有影響到監察院的觀爭,那當然我們會自己走這一條路啊。我們自律規範裡面就包括提起彈劾啊。阿你剛剛講有沒有啟動自律規範,也是沒有。我告訴你,這個是我們監察院自己的權責啊。自己的權責是啊。"},{"start":8422.997,"end":8430.68,"text":"為什麼今天為什麼今天會修法就是因為大家已經對監察院已經很多失去信心這樣的修法會造成影響會影響到我們的用人以剛剛這樣這一段時間的答詢來看看起來要法治沒法治嗎我們剛講26條精神並沒有被落實第二個要問責沒問責嗎一個是監察法一個是監察院組織法這個林委員不要搞錯啦"},{"start":8444.966,"end":8445.867,"text":"監察法及監察院組織法"},{"start":8461.09,"end":8465.595,"text":"重點不是這個嘛我現在跟你講的是你用哪一條法律都沒有關係但是現在的狀況人民對於監察院第一要自律沒自律第二要問責沒問責第三要法制沒法制是很糟糕的事情"},{"start":8476.906,"end":8502.024,"text":"秘書長你曾經站在這個位置也曾經用高標準來看待監察院但我今天問你的時候你不是不清楚就是忘記了本期認為期期以為不可啦好不好我們今天討論的其實就是自律跟公信力的問題我希望監察院好好思考為什麼會發生這樣的事如何來做檢討如何來做改善這才是我們想看到的好嗎這個是監察院內部的事情好謝謝啦"},{"start":8504.833,"end":8507.314,"text":"蘇清泉委員鄭振前委員楊瓊英委員吳思瑤委員"},{"start":8540.994,"end":8541.697,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們秘書長"},{"start":8548.069,"end":8572.377,"text":"委員長辛苦了我在這裡聆聽了其他委員的質詢我真的還是奉勸在司法法制委員會質詢的委員確實都需要把法律的脈絡連條文的本質都要搞清楚那我早上也聽到羅委員現在在場說他個人是傾向支持廢監察院非常好"},{"start":8573.177,"end":8573.277,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8589.505,"end":8617.261,"text":"我吳思瑤就是立法院第一個提出費考堅的修憲提案的立委而當時在修憲案的整個討論當中李俊毅那時候的委員也提出了很多專業的見解都有投入所以費考堅是民主進步黨長期以來的主張但是上一屆的修憲委員會從頭到尾以不出席"},{"start":8618.422,"end":8623.067,"text":"這一個的方式來阻撓費考監的提案"},{"start":8624.212,"end":8652.99,"text":"的是中國國民黨在程序上杯葛不來開會杯葛費考間的修憲提案被討論的就是中國國民黨甚至我們也一併來還原當初我們希望能夠給年輕世代更好的參政權的空間跟自由我們提起我們的憲法公民權的年限下修到18歲也是在國民黨的"},{"start":8653.65,"end":8682.796,"text":"消極杯葛之下非常遺憾的功虧一簣這是還原真相如果國民黨的委員羅志祥委員您願意支持廢監察院未來修憲的過程我們一起來加入廢考監的程序好謝謝進入我今天的主題我要說國民黨版的監察院組織法的修法萬萬要三思喔下一頁"},{"start":8684.347,"end":8709.495,"text":"這次的修法聚焦在第三條之一第一款第六款要刪除我認為這就嚴重的限縮了監委任命跟監察院組成的多元性進一步的更破壞了憲法的權力分立的原則是不是秘書長是我們是這樣認為我觀察的兩個重點期期以為不可的就是這兩個"},{"start":8711.536,"end":8714.74,"text":"條文款項的刪除就會限縮了監委的組成的"},{"start":8726.796,"end":8752.471,"text":"監察院的常設委員會有非常多,就如同立法院,它需要內政、外交、社會福利、財經、教育文化、交通採購、司法、育政,另外plus就是國家人權委員會。所以它需要的專業面向是非常的多元。所以我們都希望監察委員的任命來自於非常豐沛的社會的人才庫裡頭來挑選下一頁。"},{"start":8755.433,"end":8779.111,"text":"如果修法限縮了第一款跟第六款將迫使未來監察委員可以被提名任用的這個人才來源只剩下法界公務體系以及學者這些面向相對的在取材的管道上就有所限縮對不對是好下一頁"},{"start":8780.272,"end":8799.957,"text":"這是我自己努力去整理啊我並沒有獲得你們的這個內部的當初提名用的哪一款但我自己很努力的去整理出來這個秘書長可以指正啊正因為現在有監察院組織法三之一條的第一款監察委員他可以來延攬曾任立委"},{"start":8800.757,"end":8818.134,"text":"一任或是直轄市議員兩任以上而且他要有好的表現社會形象是佳的專業能力是強的因為有這樣一個條款的授權你看第4屆有6位從院長王建宣也是用這一條"},{"start":8819.755,"end":8847.355,"text":"紅昭南黃黃雄趙昌平陳建民錢林慧君大概第4屆6位沿用這一款第5屆有田秋瑾張仁香江以文趙詠卿瓦莉絲貝琳這我自己整理的第6屆我們的副院長李鴻鈞也是用這個條款還有葉怡君王榮章賴政昌范迅綠陳景俊跟國務委員報告王榮章委員這一次是用第7款他用第7款"},{"start":8848.595,"end":8850.136,"text":"有新黨的有親民黨的有國民黨的有民進黨還有台聯"},{"start":8874.492,"end":8896.584,"text":"所以只要是好的人才他承認立委承認執霞是議員他有足夠的專業在政治經驗上跟政策的能量上有助於他履行監委的職責過去81年寫在第一款最主要理由就是因為立委或是執霞是兩任以上他對監督政府比較有經驗他沒有銜接上的問題"},{"start":8897.745,"end":8912.091,"text":"沒有錯秘書長替我補充了一個很重要的前提明代的經驗真的有助於監委查案辦案好下一頁我們再來整理出第6款如果我整理錯秘書長也可以指正"},{"start":8912.831,"end":8916.434,"text":"我們同樣因為有了第6款的授權可以豐富兼為組成的多元面向第4屆就有劉新善、螞蟻宮、吳豐山第5屆連前院長張柏雅、孫大川、王佑林、常桂美、王美玉、林慎峰、楊芳玲都是適用第6款"},{"start":8933.49,"end":8956.91,"text":"第6屆有4位包括現任的陳菊院長、林勝峰監委、王美玉監委、普忠誠監委第6款是什麼?就是他富有政治經驗或是主持新聞文化事業有相當的正面聲譽所以這個部分如果連第6款都砍掉了這些A5屆的院長、副院長就通通不見了就通通不見了 對不對?所以這樣子的砍"},{"start":8960.906,"end":8987.748,"text":"條款要限縮監委的人才的來源我認為這是戴著有色的眼鏡這是有針對性有選擇性而且是不顧監察院的職權行使他甚至就是要癱瘓監察院我這樣說你的理解我剛剛報告的時候說明過監察院最重要的是委員組成的多元性是那這樣子的修法會限縮我們的多元性沒有錯謝謝下一頁"},{"start":8990.137,"end":9011.974,"text":"回到憲政體制我再一次說非常的遺憾司法法制委員會再一次有修法來凌駕憲法就五權分立的憲法運作的原則提名權在行政權就監委的部分是總統提名立法權是行使同意權"},{"start":9013.015,"end":9015.637,"text":"我剛才說明過了 如果限縮這兩個條款其實相對程度也限縮了總統的提名權"},{"start":9039.311,"end":9048.3,"text":"總統有提名權 立法院有同意權這是兩個不同的概念所以違憲的條文不要再來了下一頁 最後一頁"},{"start":9050.01,"end":9072.111,"text":"這次還有一個條文就是要把監委行使職權超越黨派看起來講得好像很正面但事實上我認為他是一個規範過檔的修法我們當然認為監察委員需要超出黨派嘛只要他任監委他就要退出政黨的活動不再參與政治活動"},{"start":9073.223,"end":9099.914,"text":"但是呢現在如果要把它擴大到10年內曾加入政黨或參與任何政治行動活動者不得為監察委員這不就又剝奪了憲法保障的個人的參政自由嗎而且10年是非常過當的一個限制來秘書長請說10年這個集會結社的自由是人民應有的權利那10年前我從沒有辦法預期說我會不會當監察委員我會考慮這個嗎"},{"start":9100.734,"end":9116.922,"text":"所以有限縮人民集會結社的疑慮那第二個部分是這裡的政治活動其實定義不清楚它的範圍到底到什麼程度參加遊行算不算政治活動參加call in算不算政治活動或是其他那我們這個部分除了"},{"start":9117.702,"end":9131.872,"text":"必須監察委員必須獨立行使職權以外我們的自律規範也規範得很清楚不能助講不能成功復選也不能夠都不行這個我們的自律規範很清楚所以沒有必要在組織法裡面再行這樣做政治活動難以定義而且也抵觸了憲法保障的參政權最後一項我也要說有感而發就發生在立法院立法院修正我們自己的內規政府院長要議事中立"},{"start":9148.123,"end":9150.604,"text":"政府院長要退出政治活動"},{"start":9167.392,"end":9169.613,"text":"那韓國瑜院長跟江啟臣副院長有沒有帶頭作為表率來履行立法院我們職權行使相關法規的議事中立的原則呢?所以要刮尖尾的鬍子之前"},{"start":9183.081,"end":9204.379,"text":"也要瓜瓜立法委員自己的我做這樣的補充所以最後我還是希望大家理性看待修法立委再大也不能比憲法大立委再大也不能把手伸到監察院裡頭去管東管西而且是過當的管制我希望大家能夠三思好 謝謝秘書長 謝謝主席謝謝委員"},{"start":9209.841,"end":9213.204,"text":"五分鐘回來之後我們處理有兩件臨時提案五分鐘回來的時候處理"},{"start":9568.542,"end":9595.179,"text":"好喘好那我們現在開始開會處理臨時提案共兩案請一併宣讀宣讀後再主案處理請宣讀臨時提案一列以有鑒於監察院長陳菊遭檢舉於2023年12月30日赴高雄舊城教會違法為特定立委候選人服選鑒請監察院依據監察院"},{"start":9597.06,"end":9623.683,"text":"監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法第二條第一項第一款本會致任務如左依關於人民陳述之監察委員違法失職或違反監察委員自律規範案件之審議處理事項啟動調查避免監察院長一再敗壞官真讓國人對監察院越加失望提案人委員黃國昌、傅君琦、翁曉琳、吳宗憲、林思銘"},{"start":9625.673,"end":9642.66,"text":"臨時提案二略以有鑒於諸多民眾陳情及反映,監察委員高永誠之行使職權,從曲棍球案、卡管案、論文案及近期市台會總幹事羅懿市回台遭強制驅逐出境案,"},{"start":9644.221,"end":9671.021,"text":"均有政治介入的疑慮。建請監察院依據《監察院監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法》第二條第一項第一款關於人民陳述之監察委員違法失職或違反監察委員自律規範案件之審議處理事項將監察委員高永成移送監察院紀律委員會以調查有無民眾認為違法失職之處提案人委員羅志強"},{"start":9672.222,"end":9697.792,"text":"翁曉琳 傅君綺 林思銘宣讀完畢好 謝謝那我們現在先處理臨時提案第一案請問提案委員有無補充說明好 請補充這個案子其實剛剛在詢答的過程當中我想應該已經表達得很清楚了因為去年我開始公開檢舉這件事情"},{"start":9699.953,"end":9708.904,"text":"不過按照今天詢答的內容我們的監察院秘書長說沒有人選舉所以整個自律的程序都還沒有啟動"},{"start":9710.563,"end":9731.545,"text":"我覺得從監察院的角度上面來看監察院在面對自家人是不是有違法服選這件事情恐怕不是監察院院長自己說了就算如果這個事情是監察院院長自己就說了算沒有啟動任何自律調查的程序的話"},{"start":9732.694,"end":9758.065,"text":"那真的是讓人舒難想像如果要按照以後相同的標準的話那任何要被糾取、要被糾正、要被彈劾的人他也可以跟陳菊一樣有樣學樣自己發一個新聞稿說我的新聞稿裡面已經講得很清楚了這個事情沒有再什麼樣子說明或者是調查的必要這個顯然啦 這個顯然"},{"start":9760.666,"end":9788.862,"text":"可能跟我們對於監察院他所應該在被廢止以前所應該扮演的角色以及所期待的標準大相徑庭那既然今天在詢答的過程當中秘書長已經很清楚的說了目前沒有任何的啟動程序來加以調查而依照監察院監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法只要有人名陳述的話那他們就要啟動調查"},{"start":9790.123,"end":9803.534,"text":"那我今天就公開而且直接的去做了這樣子的檢舉啟動他們的自立調查程序以上說明 謝謝好 謝謝那請問機關有沒有要補充說明"},{"start":9810.43,"end":9830.523,"text":"依據我們的這個自律規範這個部分我們任何人如果認為公務員設有違私可以向監察院檢舉那本院就會依照法定程序處理所以今天的提案兩個都算是人民提出這個檢舉案那我們就依法定程序處理但是裡面有一些文字是不是可以建議做修正好 謝謝那好柯總召"},{"start":9841.159,"end":9862.356,"text":"這不是政治鬥爭,什麼來就是政治鬥爭?到底有沒有去瞭解當天的情況是怎麼樣?有政治鬥爭在場嗎?陳其現場也在發表新聞表表示,那當天只車上有酒,然後就用這個看圖片說故事。我告訴你委員,你作為這樣"},{"start":9864.977,"end":9877.545,"text":"打手然後反正不同立場的你就重新門打看圖說故事我們要了解齁剛才秘書長也講過能免檢舉就能免檢舉嘛你可以檢舉啊"},{"start":9880.799,"end":9907.384,"text":"主要是在宴席之間的事情的話可以由立法院發動檢舉發動他們要啟動啟動這個內部的調查成績以及的紀委會那主要照這樣的標準的話權力分裂原則在什麼地方今天主要對面的夫婚期再中反彈再反彈再到中國房屋"},{"start":9909.113,"end":9934.071,"text":"你請我講話嘛 你說是和平之理 破平之理我看這個是賣台之理吧 要遵守的話 這樣可以吧行政院跟監察院可以請問給 做結議請問給你 你反正要送紀委會嗎因為你太離譜了嘛 黃國昌你要聽人家講 你不知道整天黑夜去跟人家說什麼事實現象是怎麼樣 你會不會搞清楚"},{"start":9938.6,"end":9938.985,"text":"鍾佳斌委員"},{"start":9947.014,"end":9974.644,"text":"主席我們對於委員會跟院會之間的職權我想在司法法制委員會的委員我們會對跟其他委員相較我們更高的要求那我這邊也請主席可以稍微釐清一下因為委員會在座我們很多委員過去在學生時代也擔任過學生議會的議員都知道議事規則其實目前的委員會他是呈院會之命"},{"start":9975.824,"end":10001.04,"text":"進行包括法案的審查包括預案的審查當然也會在施政報告總諮詢之後也會開始讓各部會向各委員會進行業務報告委員會本身的臨時提案他就被拘束在這些院會交給委員會的工作當中所以一般我們委員會的臨時提案多半是針對業務報告的部門"},{"start":10003.366,"end":10018.707,"text":"請他進一步的提供補充的說明或者是說就法案的審理過程當中需要業務機關提出必要的資訊我們才能去審議法案或者說我們在審議預算的過程當中我們需要提供過去執行的證明"},{"start":10020.055,"end":10039.289,"text":"這些或許在地方議會稱之為所知但是在委員會是一個常態我們要求受監督機關就是行政院包括各部會因為我們受院會的委託所進行的這些各類審查在委員會進行的時候我們所必要的所以我們才做成了決議"},{"start":10040.47,"end":10062.099,"text":"因此我們今天這兩個提案在場我們必須審視這兩個提案跟院會交付給我們本委員會的法律修正案的審查的關聯性是什麼如果能夠具體說明我相信我們本委員會做成的決議比較上就比較符合一個國會運作委員會體力的一個職權行使"},{"start":10065.62,"end":10081.401,"text":"但是我還是要提醒的,陳儒過去我在當輪次召委都會提醒委員,其實監察院也好,司法院也好,它都是跟立法院一樣的憲政機關,而憲政機關只有行政院依憲法向立法院負責。"},{"start":10082.932,"end":10099.35,"text":"立法院包括院會也不會對於司法院或監察院在法案跟預算以外他的獨立行使職權有任何的要求也不具有這樣的權利大法官的解釋都非常的清楚所以我剛剛有點遺憾的聽到了我們"},{"start":10103.034,"end":10121.176,"text":"監察院秘書長說,這個提案可能他會視為一般人民陳情案來處理。如果是一般人民陳情案,其實就根本不需要委員會在這邊做討論。本席剛剛在詞詢的時候,也就這樣的部分,包括有國民黨的總召"},{"start":10122.277,"end":10137.544,"text":"率團17人到中國去其中有包括國防外交委員會的委員才在本月上上週出席了一個院內的一個機密會議秘密會議在這種情況之下立法院有沒有去做列管"},{"start":10139.039,"end":10157.73,"text":"秘書長說,委員的部分不在監察院的職權行使對象,但是立法院的公務員,如果代乎職守,是在監察院的調查糾正範圍內,所以他請本席如果有提出,那監察院當然就會來受理。"},{"start":10158.49,"end":10172.406,"text":"所以如果是這樣子我是建議主席這個案子都要處理既然提案委員有這樣的要求監察院也會受理是不是我們今天根本無待決議就直接由委員個人向監察院提出這樣的檢舉"},{"start":10173.527,"end":10201.983,"text":"不管是檢舉立法院的公務員對於人員附中涉密人員附中的列管疏失或者是對於其他機關有公務人員失職的部分都可以依請監察院來作為一個調查做一個處置我覺得這才符合憲政機關應有的作為也符合本委員會呈院會之命受理進行預算或法案審查所應有的作為以上請主席"},{"start":10202.363,"end":10204.544,"text":"主席各位同仁我想這個今天兩個臨時提案我們看一下其實"},{"start":10232.759,"end":10250.852,"text":"大家都知道說這個是政治性提案因為這個依法來講我們立法院是沒有任何權力依權力分立的原則我們也是沒有權力要求監察院幹嘛因此我都看了兩個提案是啦我們都是用建請監察院為什麼用建請"},{"start":10251.713,"end":10266.215,"text":"因為我們知道我們自己寫提案的人都知道說我們沒有權利要求監察院做什麼這是第一件事第二件事兩個臨時提案的核心精神我看了兩個臨時提案最核心的都是監察院監察委員自律規範"},{"start":10269.108,"end":10284.287,"text":"這個自律規範然後這個自律這兩個字我不曉得是不是是不是大家不太理解自律這兩個字吼就像我們立法院的這個自律自律規範我們也也也這個也也不是法律啊這裡就說違反自律規範這個"},{"start":10286.567,"end":10307.143,"text":"有這個指揮違法行徑他就不是法為什麼違法那既然是自律為什麼今天立法院要求又提案提案說你你你自律今天如果說監察院哪個監察委員提案子說立法院應該要把誰送立法院紀律委員會那這個我們立法院敢不懂"},{"start":10308.044,"end":10308.084,"text":"主席"},{"start":10340.486,"end":10363.264,"text":"憲法中修條文第7條也明白的寫著說我們監察委員獨立行使職權他就是獨立行使職權我們這個臨時提案羅志祥委員的臨時提案這裡就指明哪一個立法委員辦什麼案子的時候你們這些提案人認為他有政治介入的疑慮但是憲法就寫他獨立行使職權"},{"start":10367.313,"end":10374.964,"text":"這個就像我們遇到司法案件的口農法官,我們也不能說哪一個法官我們立法院決議哪一個法官你的判決是有問題的"},{"start":10376.598,"end":10398.921,"text":"你個人可以對他有評價,但是我們立法院做成決議說獨立行使職權的人,你的行使職權的方法我有意見。這個我認為是就直接違反了憲法這個監察委員獨立行使職權的這樣子的精神。尤其我們是立法院,我們是權力分立之中的一個角色,我們不是一般的民眾,也不是政論節目,這裡也不是政論節目,call in節目。"},{"start":10400.282,"end":10419.438,"text":"所以我是希望說大家三思啦這個表決我們當然是輸啦齁因為這個我們主席要特別休息等我們副總召 副坤崎總召趕到現場才來 才開會啦那我們表決當然是輸啦載令啦齁 多累甲載令啦阿但是大家講講道理這出去社會都有公平了我是希望說大家講講道理以上"},{"start":10420.674,"end":10420.854,"text":"建請監察院"},{"start":10436.081,"end":10441.105,"text":"不是命令監察院是建請以前在法院的時候檢察官是具體求處多少年後來被要說具體這是有點命令性後來改成都是建請因為建請兩個字就不會違反就不會認為是一個強制的要求所以"},{"start":10456.977,"end":10457.998,"text":"主席啊 對不起 會議詢問"},{"start":10484.532,"end":10494.706,"text":"會議許願有限嘛我只有個簡單的問題啦我們現在發言的狀態是不需要經過主席同意大家隨便按麥克風都可以發言嗎"},{"start":10495.8,"end":10514.902,"text":"依照行為法是要由主席這邊決定那如果是這樣子的話我要拜託主席請您執行這樣的規範規範是怎麼樣都沒有關係大家喜歡按麥克風發言就按麥克風發言如果規範是這樣也沒有關係說清楚講明白"},{"start":10515.743,"end":10538.268,"text":"那如果不是這樣的話請主席等一下沒有你點到發言的自己致意的按麥克風發言請主席主持會議自止謝謝好那依照立法委員行為法那在議會在那個這個議程進行期間還是要由主席這邊來來決定那我想說是不是"},{"start":10538.908,"end":10539.468,"text":"司法及法制委員會綠色迴力標"},{"start":10557.951,"end":10577.887,"text":"真是驚奇萬分啊什麼回立標飛來飛去打來打去全部往民進黨身上招呼啊來我唸一句話給大家聽明言啊真是佩服啊祕書長我最後請教你一個問題如果立法院說王健軒嚴重破壞官僧要求監察院彈劾你們會不會處理啊這句話誰說的啊誰說的啊這句話就是我們在座的李敬義祕書長當立委的時候說的啊"},{"start":10587.29,"end":10609.9,"text":"了不起啊 彈劾都可以啊 都可以要求彈劾啦結果呢 現在現請 這個把陳菊 高永成 送自律委員會我們禮儀秘書長都講啦 本來就可以啊結果馬上這些護航部隊喔 非常熱鬧精彩啊 迫不及待啊"},{"start":10611.158,"end":10614.899,"text":"今天我們國參委員臨時提案就表達立法院的我們司法法制委員會我們的態度阿"},{"start":10640.798,"end":10658.76,"text":"監察院今天一個陳菊到底你今天有沒有違反行政中立你本來就應該好好調查了解啊監察院你不做我們立法院我們司法法制委員會我們就代表民意然後做出一個正式的一個決議請我們監察院慎重考慮嘛"},{"start":10659.841,"end":10672.19,"text":"就是移送自立委員會嘛 好好調查調查嘛機制上反正就可以就像我們李俊逸都可以要求彈劾王健軒了我跟各位講 你知道當時的秘書長怎麼回答嗎"},{"start":10673.846,"end":10690.673,"text":"當時秘書長怎麼回答?我們李靜玉說忘了啦問他已經忘了啦但是我們的秘書長 當時的秘書長回答說就依程序進行啦一樣啊 今天送出去就依程序進行不要緊張 不要回立標 不要再打李靜玉都是同黨同志 照顧一下 謝謝"},{"start":10694.2,"end":10695.961,"text":"請問還有哪位委員要發言?"},{"start":10724.978,"end":10752.195,"text":"有事實的話我不認為監察院他連回答都不敢回答都不用回答尤其是黃國昌委員現在在立法院份量是是這個不可同日而語的那我倒會覺得啦你說一個案子你可以自己去做一個檢舉的那你用在特別要用立法院來這邊在委員會裡面做表決那萬一表決沒有通過呢"},{"start":10754.175,"end":10765.16,"text":"不是很怪嗎那一個這個案子一看就知道充滿著政治性嘛我相信黃國昌委員你也我們這樣講說你這個案子充滿政治性你也不能講說我們講的沒有道理嘛那我倒會覺得啦像這種案件來講的話你讓他給呈案的話不需要經過委員會就可以呈案就可以去做的事情那偏偏要捨棄這樣的一個卷舉的方式在委員會裡面來做這樣的一個提案"},{"start":10783.527,"end":10806.835,"text":"我倒會覺得說 多此一舉啦 那我想 是不是啊國民黨委員跟提案人 這個地方有你們的一個看法 我們表示尊重那民進黨很明顯的 我們有不一樣的一個看法那不一樣的看法呢 又不是說一定要到最後用比較絕對的一個方式才可以達到你的一個目的所以 可以再請黃委員再考慮一下"},{"start":10810.164,"end":10810.725,"text":"副主席"},{"start":10820.461,"end":10832.809,"text":"那大家發言一次完就可以了啦,就表決啦,反正也沒什麼意思啦,不然就現在就表決,我提一下表決,每個人,那吳世堯先講啊,不是要先講啊主席,你去找主席,他會比較有機會,我去找大家,這比較不行那我要提停止討論喔,那先讓吳世堯先講好不好,總召,你剛剛講過,讓吳世堯先講啦"},{"start":10843.055,"end":10848.999,"text":"請問現在是什麼發言秩序已經登記完畢以後要停止討論這樣好了啦就是說我們都一人發言一次好不好"},{"start":10860.847,"end":10877.519,"text":"竹蘭更改遊戲規則主席你最好這樣好不好我們現在這邊就因為我剛已經答應那個對我們剛已經答應總召了所以我們讓總召再發一次然後之後大家一人發一次那個國民黨這邊也一樣我們讓議事順利一點啦彈心理順利一點結檢票啦不准記吧你表格有問題啊你講一下"},{"start":10887.185,"end":10907.338,"text":"所以齁 大家一種基本的民主素養齁 剛才你提到女記在委員會發言是不是如果在委員會發言 王立堅應該下台啊 這立法院並不是做結議啊是審查他們預算的時候 預算法律案的時候做這樣的發言啊"},{"start":10908.844,"end":10936.912,"text":"對 要了解 當年王建恩怎麼講的他 立法院 監察院就是 婚委院 因為把他關起來他自己還去告 裡面的監察委員他最大問題是什麼他把 輪廊一些不讓黨產 黨產只要銷毀這何其大事啊 你們要了解整個過去是怎麼樣的情形王建恩是自己 還有在監察院裡面啊 汪明莎等等 荒謬的行為一大堆所以立法院在這裡做一個"},{"start":10941.448,"end":10962.805,"text":"提出一些看法不可以嗎?所以這個不是當然這個不是結議案今天你是用結議案一個非事實東西來揭殺到底陳吉田長員講得很清楚吧他這酒是放在車廂有看到一張照片就代表他去會選"},{"start":10965.227,"end":10984.02,"text":"當天也沒有候選人在場侯昌明司法協博士我告訴你大法官461號解釋你自己看清楚1998年的時候那時候我們還在議黨的時候所有國民黨和民進黨委員都認為指認參謀總長的常委應該來立法院被刑常委不來"},{"start":10989.844,"end":11014.539,"text":"後來去大法院解釋司令會出來以後就說因為唐安徽當參謀總長過去是不用背刑的但是他有主導而且共同主導所謂的國防預算以及國防政策以乃至於國防法案所以他必須要來立法院背刑那時候司令會解釋出來是什麼五院院長"},{"start":11016.421,"end":11034.662,"text":"包括監察院、院長、監察委員等不予行使之前的不用來立法院但是呢要來的只有像秘書長要來因為他是代表監察院來說明預算法案所以這個事情像今天是處理法案所以秘書長必須來這種很嚴謹的潛力覆力原則"},{"start":11036.834,"end":11037.274,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":11061.003,"end":11061.804,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":11071.766,"end":11071.926,"text":"翁小林委員"},{"start":11096.924,"end":11113.551,"text":"針對這兩個臨時提案當然等一下會進入表決但是我們在立法院還是要秉持我們的職責我要做成發言的記錄那今天的提案一跟提案二非常清楚的就是一個針對性跟選擇性的政治性的提案那針對各案"},{"start":11115.144,"end":11135.628,"text":"來透過決議的方式我非常同意說各別的委員你對於各別的個案有提出你的看法觀點你可以利用你個人質詢的時間去為之大家互相尊重但是因為今天這兩個提案都是要透過司法法制委員會的共同決定這當然就不可不慎了"},{"start":11136.363,"end":11162.979,"text":"那以多數然後就硬要把不適宜成為提案的案由然後成為提案強行通過我要再次說明我非常不認同這個說法那就提案一的部分我覺得這個是很清楚的是一再的針對個人性就這個陳菊院長有沒有在你所指涉的去年12月30號當天"},{"start":11166.201,"end":11183.404,"text":"他有沒有去助選這個相關當事人第一個就是陳菊院長他很清楚的說他是去教會訪友第二個被影射的去被助選的那個當事人現在也是我們的立法院的同事他也很清楚的他當天沒有在場"},{"start":11184.332,"end":11198.208,"text":"一個候選人沒有在場的場子可以被說成是替候選人造勢助選所以相關當事人都清楚的澄清了而且當下在這個教會也沒有被拍到任何助選相關的行為"},{"start":11199.449,"end":11226.925,"text":"那看到黑影就在開情,黑白亂開情然後今天在這裡提案當事人的澄清都一再的視而不見這種機是成機非成是我實在非常沒有辦法容忍這種行徑喔如果黃國昌委員你這麼有正義感那建議你針對你們主席所涉入的這個金華城的案子市北科的案子或者是台智光的案子是不是更應當去徹查呢"},{"start":11228.806,"end":11229.608,"text":"你的正義會轉彎,你的正義是有選擇性的。"},{"start":11233.345,"end":11257.427,"text":"就提案二的部分我更認為其實以為不可啊立法委員怎麼可以針對各案去左右阻撓監委的辦案呢查案呢我們司法法制委員會讓我覺得非常的遺憾是我們一再的看到委員利用質詢好我尊重每個人質詢的時間可是我們在質詢時有多少委員針對各案要求給我查給我查你查的不夠不夠再查"},{"start":11259.429,"end":11264.512,"text":"都在左右各案結果呢今天監委也不過是行使他的職權啊而且這個查案辦案的結果是什麼都還不知道我們要尊重監委的職權嘛那現在不准人家查這就是你們的預設立場"},{"start":11276.998,"end":11304.872,"text":"這完全就是邏輯的矛盾你每天在司法法制委員會叫別人查什麼案查得不滿你的意要繼續查你就是在說別人是在掩護是在護航現在監委立了一個案依他的職權行使你限制人家查案我從來沒有看過這麼真的立委再大也不能夠去叫監委往東就往東往西就往西我們立法院不是習近平啊"},{"start":11305.572,"end":11305.932,"text":"謝謝,那我們接下來請翁曉林委員"},{"start":11324.813,"end":11325.153,"text":"民進黨立委段宜康"},{"start":11356.454,"end":11377.849,"text":"議員和候選人站台合照並且還當面向監察院秘書長傅孟榮要求並且將這個提案提報到監察院的紀律委員會不是就是段宜康委員不是這麼做嗎?這個不是說不一樣這代表說立法委員其實都同樣都有這樣的一個權利"},{"start":11379.95,"end":11402.264,"text":"提案基本上是每個委員都有這樣的權利而且更何況今天這兩個提案基本上也是回到監察院請監察院自己要去針對院長還有委員監察委員有沒有失職的部分進行調查這怎麼不可以這難道不是立法院應該要監督監察院的一個很重要的職權嗎所以"},{"start":11405.219,"end":11432.307,"text":"但是我們不是叫我們是代表民意我們希望監察院能夠自己約束自己監察委員的行為這也是我一再強調現在監察院監察委員自律規範的法律位階不夠應該要比照像是立法院行為法要提升他的法律位階那麼我想這個案子大家已經討論很久了是不是可以請主席直接就這兩個提案進行表決謝謝"},{"start":11434.838,"end":11462.722,"text":"好 那個聽起來就是對於這個雙方共識差距太大那我們就直接進行表決好了好 那我們現在先清點人數好 我們現在先處理臨時提案第一案那我們現在進行表決那我們是採舉手表決那表決前請先清點在場出席委員的人數"},{"start":11466.527,"end":11494.277,"text":"好那在場出席委員12位那我們現在開始進行表決贊成者請舉手第一案阿現在在處理第一案阿好贊成者6位請放下反對者請舉手反對者6位好請放下好那"},{"start":11495.711,"end":11523.431,"text":"表決結果,在場初期委員12人,贊成6位,反對6位,贊成者與反對者同訴。依據委員會組織法第10條規定,初期委員過半數決議,可否同訴時取決於主席。現在主席表示贊成,所以表決結果為,在場初期委員13人,贊成7人,反對6人,本案贊成者多數通過。"},{"start":11527.134,"end":11555.865,"text":"我們接下來處理第二案請第二案的提案委員有無補充說明我們先補充說明完再大家討論我的補充說明是幫我們的柯總召來說因為我是非常欣賞柯總召經常都有智慧之語他剛剛在前面階段針對提案一說這不是政治鬥爭什麼是政治鬥爭說實在太好了"},{"start":11556.816,"end":11579.99,"text":"這個提案真的是真心奉勸民進黨高永城真的太離譜了這麼多年來政治鬥爭已經到了無以復加的地步民進黨完全就無視這個政治鬥爭的一個政策你說監察院要把它批評東廠最大的禍首之一就是高永城"},{"start":11582.093,"end":11598.645,"text":"段宜康的曲棍球案請問他是不是在干涉司法然後這個被民進黨認證2022年的敗選的戰犯林志堅連民進黨都不敢幫他背書他跑去查被害人余政煌現在"},{"start":11601.414,"end":11623.794,"text":"放著這麼多的案子不查來去追殺侯友宜所以我直接說今天我們也希望能夠建請監察院能夠把這個已經是完全的這個做政治追殺政治鬥爭的打手的高永成以治癒機制來疫情調查以上"},{"start":11628.065,"end":11632.488,"text":"我們討論每人發言一次,這樣才不會讓會議進行延宕我覺得各黨有建議提議,一邊派一個講就好了,一位就好了,那就表決了"},{"start":11656.85,"end":11668.574,"text":"主席 主席會議詢問先生有台下指揮 台上指紋 主持會議嗎我建議啊 我建議啊 不然他就提 那這樣喔 主席 他這樣講我接受啦我提案停止討論表決啦"},{"start":11670.233,"end":11697.767,"text":"每個人都可以講我已經都推動柯總召你要剝奪柯總召的發言嗎我跟你講那個跟各位報告齁不是說聽誰指揮啦剛剛柯總召有意見我是不是也是說好柯總召讓他講嘛我的立場很簡單就是讓會議進行順利所以每個人的發言我覺得有道理就聽沒有道理我就就沒有聽嘛就這樣嘛我就希望議會議事"},{"start":11699.068,"end":11721.039,"text":"主持順利而已啊你不要擔心啦,你不會變白啦好,那我們現在請柯總召發言主席啊,你應該檢察官是真的吧,對不對檢察官發言是自己,是主委主委之前,因為就是我後面指揮你當主席,竟然都委員一直在指揮你如何處理程序"},{"start":11722.643,"end":11745.621,"text":"你沒回答啦我講完嘛反正等一下你會用行動記錄表示你的意見你的更多啊我簡單講就好這個一個監察委員他一個任期內辦案何其多啊你招幾個用有色眼光來看待有政治之嫌就可以來處理他"},{"start":11747.881,"end":11748.141,"text":"好,那總統早,總統早"},{"start":11774.544,"end":11777.372,"text":"對,一次啦,我覺得都一次好了,就快一點"},{"start":11779.21,"end":11807.377,"text":"主席謝謝委員我還是覺得可以提醒一下提案委員因為今天的質詢因為時間的關係後半段關於所提到的目前監察院有委員在行使調查我可以提醒大家因為這是很善意的提醒了解提案委員調查委員的意識就是為什麼監察院受理人民陳情他要啟動調查其實我們都以為是要針對被調查人的責任"},{"start":11807.777,"end":11808.538,"text":"根據我們2022年通過的權力回復條例"},{"start":11837.859,"end":11860.216,"text":"當事人要向這個全副會來受理這樣的權益侵害,他必須要有一個權威的調查結果。所以我認為呢,平心而論,大家聽聽看,我知道謝委員有注意在聽我這樣子講。這個本案的調查委員的用意,未必是要針對被調查者,就是那個涉及可能違法行使公權利的公務員。"},{"start":11860.996,"end":11861.377,"text":"主席"},{"start":11881.369,"end":11898.705,"text":"這才是這個調查本身我覺得調查委員的用意如果大家可以體察這樣的用意不要太用政治性的角度來思考很清楚的本案就有公務人就算是違法他也超過了目前監察院行使要對他彈劾的這個時效性了"},{"start":11899.446,"end":11925.26,"text":"所以或許是不是給當時的對照人就受害的民眾他有機會透過監察院的調查來申請回復他權利所必要的補償我覺得這一點在社會上一直沒有很清楚的被討論所以提請大家我們委員在思考這個提案的時候我們注意到大家的力氣用對地方以上懇請主席來做一個說明"},{"start":11930.195,"end":11948.412,"text":"請問還有哪位委員要發言?針對提案二,如果我沒有看錯,這個被調查的對象之一,侯友宜市長他很清楚地說,他坦蕩蕩,他也樂於接受調查。"},{"start":11949.195,"end":11959.964,"text":"所以當事人侯友宜都表達他不害怕接受調查那不曉得提案的委員在害怕什麼以意圖要去阻卻監委獨立行使他的調查權"},{"start":11961.993,"end":11981.892,"text":"同一個委員會的委員我也是不好意思提醒一下黃國昌委員你們的柯文哲主席也都說這個黨團投票可以不用一次進出同樣的表態黨團民眾黨內部都可以有自由意志的行使那當然黃國昌總召今天也不一定要都要跟著傅坤祺總召走"},{"start":11984.974,"end":12008.199,"text":"主席說的事情也提醒一下黃總召希望能夠在一些對付困境走了不在你也可以行使你的個人意志我做這個提醒好 那個羅委員我是提案說明阿對不要那麼緊張嘛好不好還是那個黃國昌委員還是哪一位先好 國昌委員"},{"start":12011.946,"end":12036.339,"text":"我想針對這一個提案本身它有它一定的射程範圍但我只想要幫基層的檢察官說幾句話這個案子我支持我為什麼支持呢一個立委公開指控區棍球協會理事長涉及這裏檢察官偵辦的結果"},{"start":12040.475,"end":12065.248,"text":"他不高興就跑去施壓監察委員民進黨自己提名的監察委員然後針對這件事情要啟動調查到底是誰在破壞監察院獨立行使職權結果追殺一次還不夠懲戒法庭已經決議沒有要懲戒再搞第二次"},{"start":12066.496,"end":12093.956,"text":"我把基層檢察官組成的建清檢改當初的抨擊在委員會留下記錄人權監察院的人權監委為了護航政治勢力公然追殺報復承辦個案的基層檢察官難道監察院是想要殺雞儆猴讓全國檢察官敬若寒蟬"},{"start":12095.445,"end":12123.929,"text":"對政治正確的權貴違法亂紀之事縮手裝死福音新興政治權貴嗎?蔡總統這就是您一再提名連任的監察委員嗎?這是當初基層檢察官所提出來的怒吼我覺得這些監察這些基層的檢察官必須要有一個公道還給他們以上"},{"start":12126.016,"end":12126.556,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":12151.152,"end":12172.527,"text":"臨時提案的第二案我們現在進行表決表決是用舉手表決的方式表決前請先清點在場出席委員人數在場出席委員12位現在開始表決戰爭者請舉手"},{"start":12177.242,"end":12178.222,"text":"站成者與反對者同署"},{"start":12198.049,"end":12211.607,"text":"可否同訴時取決於主席,現在主席表示贊成。所以表決結果為在場出席委員13人,贊成者7人,反對者6人,本案證者多數通過。"},{"start":12214.607,"end":12228.733,"text":"臨時停案已經處理完畢,現在繼續進行詢答接下來請翁曉琳委員進行詢答翁曉琳委員改書面質詢接下來請賴氏寶委員進行詢答賴氏寶委員接下來請王紅薇委員王紅薇委員改書面詢答"},{"start":12242.158,"end":12244.659,"text":"所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢,詢問結束"},{"start":12274.472,"end":12300.181,"text":"主席你剛剛不是說你不會幹這種事情你就是今天完成詢答嗎?因為議事日程上也是寫詢答"},{"start":12301.9,"end":12302.821,"text":"則期再處理阿"},{"start":12331.161,"end":12332.323,"text":"因為柯總召是建議擇期在"},{"start":12340.475,"end":12358.706,"text":"沒有我跟你講啦齁 我的意思今天的議程上面寫得很清楚但是我會尊重大家的意思那我說不會突襲是指我不會請大家回去之後突然跑過來開會這不是我因為剛剛看到我是很同情你 看到副總是要使個眼色你就沒有啦 你們虧我就算了啦"},{"start":12361.568,"end":12376.11,"text":"今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢,詢答結束委員諮詢時,要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關迅速送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":12377.54,"end":12395.291,"text":"那翁曉琳委員．王鴻威委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆報告及詢答完畢那令定期繼續審查本次會議進行到此現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}