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左邊"},{"start":231.532,"end":252.604,"text":"擔心不可預測的後果會影響後續的權益被罵的最慘的是科長以及秘書同仁身為旁觀者因為工作環境不佳也隨時想辭去公職如果沒有調查到對的人是沒有辦法問出事實的這是你的員工留下的文字恐懼我讓你做參考旅社長你也跟著聽"},{"start":254.085,"end":268.034,"text":"部長為劉玉娟叫人家自殺的錄音檔流出來以後你們記他兩個身屆免監社保司司長但外宣主義他還是質疑他還是主秘啊你一直告訴我們說主秘只是幕僚單位替他開脫你騙外行人啊來看看衛福部的處務規程主秘的職責是什麼第三條框起來的第二條"},{"start":279.081,"end":299.455,"text":"機密及重要文件的處理我當時就是擔心秋後算帳員工不肯講真話我問人事室處長他說他在管理沒有問題我說但是他是你的上司他叫你要看你不給他看嗎現在都不用看他事過境遷他完全可以看因為衛福部的機要跟重要資料機密資料都是他來講理的"},{"start":302.861,"end":326.361,"text":"部長在這個情況下誰敢說真話他的職權就是準備處理機密及重要文件之處理部長你繼續下來看 理事長你好好聽著來你看看這一張你一直告訴我尊重你又來了尊重這個小組的專業但是調查結果小組名單也不公佈調查結果也不讓大家知道我們看看勞動部兩次"},{"start":328.303,"end":334.19,"text":"好 勞動部至少在第一次調查報告 載明了調查小組的成員公開的調查報告還傳上網你衛福部差很多 你輸兩天你跟我說的藉口 人家勞動部至少做到了你如果不知道怎麼做 你去問洪聖翰怎麼做"},{"start":346.99,"end":366.631,"text":"不過洪部長你現在也有新的案子發生我希望你秉持一貫的水準好好處理今天好像又有這個新的案子上次我們要求你公開報告你說私底下跟我們委員講如果有不滿意我們再進一步處理我現在就告訴你我不滿意證據我已經告訴大家了請問你要怎麼做"},{"start":368.032,"end":389.617,"text":"你一直上次你跟這個呂次長一直說擔心擔心就是說被這個公開報告以後會讓人暗圖所記知道哪些人約談我看過報告就完全這個是這個完全是藉口啊你看我今天報告哪裡看出是誰被約談有嗎所以我今天已經再次提案了我跟總召報備了我要求公開報告重啟調查如果說誰要護短那我就表決我們來看看讓大家看看是誰在護短"},{"start":398.153,"end":403.079,"text":"到底誰要互轉動用心高規格然後又不敢讓社會知道的調查內容報告好 呂氏你可以請回了好 邱部長 現在我要來看台大醫院 台大醫院性騷案可不可以跟我們回答一下好 請說"},{"start":416.268,"end":439.335,"text":"我想非常感謝我們陳昭之委員我想對於我們同仁的這個關心我想這個我們大家都是一起希望能夠為同仁能夠創造一個更好的環境不過我想委員您應該我剛剛提到的那些缺點你那裡面的瑕疵那我們也都我想委員也都是在學術界也待過你也做過量化也做過質化研究特別是質化研究裡面我們有對當事人"},{"start":440.255,"end":467.643,"text":"你做任何研究之前或是做任何調查之前都有做這一個隱私保護我想這個都有簽所以我想這些都必須跑到程序上面所以我不滿意啦你當說我不滿意可以再繼續處理你就繼續處理好嗎所以我今天有臨時提案另外第二點我們這個整個確實整個過程呢我們都是你要想辦法讓人家公開講真話你別說他不肯來我就沒辦法啦那還調查什麼我們本來就是用公開的方式啊"},{"start":468.168,"end":472.432,"text":"我剛剛講那麼多缺點你不要再反駁了你就針對我剛剛講的缺點去處理就好了好 請回 吳院長你一邊聽 你上來說2019年8月台大急診部送診管理師動手摸女同事的腰跟臀部這已經發生了台大醫院博物室第一回2023年6月台大的女教授自己接錄自己在當研修醫師時曾在開刀房"},{"start":491.872,"end":506.983,"text":"遇到性騷擾自己站在對方背後去觀摩開刀實況時某教授說今天怎麼這麼小的評論一直說某教授無法從背後感知他胸部的大小今年9月去年應該是去年9月台大骨科部主任強制猥褻難怪有人說陽光灑不進白色巨塔好"},{"start":514.327,"end":529.563,"text":"除此之外去年六月金三科大佬李明斌一時也爆出性騷案他不僅僅是台灣自殺防治學會理事長也是衛福部委辦的台灣全國自殺防治中心計劃主持人"},{"start":530.683,"end":549.958,"text":"曾在台大醫院精神部受訓的女醫師向媒體投訴李明斌的性騷行為是一件請聽好喔邱部長可能你還是要再再再席只要在台大精神醫學部受訓過的女性都必須了解被口耳相傳要交班要交班有這件事情"},{"start":551.179,"end":564.321,"text":"對於出入精神科的住院醫師來說幾乎是毀滅性的傷害所以當時就有醫師說院內三宿管道是最大的障眼法如果不痛定思痛會有無數個李明斌"},{"start":565.875,"end":581.981,"text":"請問吳院長今天台大大學派了個主秘來這個校長真是藐視國會將近一年半的時間你有痛定思痛嗎你們做了什麼吳院長對這個醫師對林明斌的指控你做了什麼還有前面的部分做了什麼指控做了什麼改變"},{"start":585.289,"end":605.775,"text":"那我可以先回答一下我其實上面有數據只要有申訴人提出欣賞事實上在院內已經處理從110年就處理過很多的後面還有很多問題那我先從黃姓李教授這件問題我一定要澄清因為黃姓李教授他當"},{"start":611.397,"end":637.39,"text":"這不是在這邊澄清問題,我們要求的是一個調查報告,我們一個制度的問題有有有,你們要求的報告我們一定都會有剛才我說邱部長,剛才我說李明斌的保魂,他現在還有重要職位專科醫學會你在乎這個問題嗎?還是你們要切割?你要持最高道德標準?他現在已經沒有擔任衛福部的任何工作了你確定?確定上次我們質詢的時候"},{"start":640.529,"end":669.208,"text":"但是你要用辦法你不是說這次因為要堵不住那個女醫師出來投訴所以你就做了一個因人設事處理好我還有後面的台大婦產部主任楊主任楊主任的聲明中提到你看他自己寫聲明自己獲悉西教授疑似對被害人進行性騷擾以示以後為了保護被害人或協助其相關保全證據的證明僅私下詢問是否尚有其他人證或物證這個楊主任沒說得好一段話三句話三句話都有問題"},{"start":670.59,"end":691.351,"text":"什麼叫自己獲悉難道這個是正式管道告訴他的嗎還是有人泄密不是只有當事人可以知道嗎他為什麼會自己獲悉第二個保護被害人並協助保全相關證據照理說被害人沒有跟他陳述啊他不應該知道被害人是誰啊性命犯調查是秘密進行他也沒有權利來保護什麼被害人的這個保全證據"},{"start":692.852,"end":704.643,"text":"第三個是警司下詢問是否有其他人證物證我可不可以合理懷疑他是在通風暴行帶風向啊他想要問這個被害人你到底知道什麼好回去跟這個西教授說他只有這個問題你還要辦法處理這像話嗎楊主任講這個話像話嗎"},{"start":712.408,"end":738.563,"text":"你也知道我們全家都是台大校友該做的事,深則是切,不對的事就是要做台大下本部你接獲這個投訴案以後為什麼今天台大校長不過來兩邊推來推去,你晚交報告他要把你推回去,聽說來來回回十次到底是誰要隱瞞這個事情啊到底是誰想拖延這個事情啊來來回回,到現在沒有正式的懲處"},{"start":740.967,"end":763.18,"text":"我可以給我一個時間我謝謝陳委員提悉性教訓拜託主席讓我講好你講沒有就是說你很快的告訴我我剛剛只問你的問題來來回回這麼多次在拖延嗎這件事情其實是院方主動立案因為沒有申訴人我們聽聞有這樣的消息主動立案那第二個我們總共開了一次工作小組"},{"start":763.66,"end":785.36,"text":"不對啊 那些醫師考完專科醫師執照就趕去來跟很多人申訴喔沒有沒有 那個都有給我知道我們有把那個然後有六次調查報告然後有兩次委員會你就是持交嘛他有一定的時間 你就是持交嘛沒有沒有沒有持交因為根據我們的那個其實在二月立案六月就已經做出懲處"},{"start":786.241,"end":807.157,"text":"一直說他的報告你的報告不完整啊挑剔你啊沒有申訴人他沒有時間的一個報告但是院方主動根據我們那個性騷髮的那個規定大家委員可以看假如是有申訴人必須要再二加一個院你的處理我還有很多意見好那我再講楊主任並不是"},{"start":808.318,"end":831.155,"text":"並不是裡面的委員所以他知悉是因為他被調來做在調查小組裡面的時候他是被叫來問他才知道有這件事情所以楊子潤他沒有講得很清楚謝謝委員給我一個澄清因為事實上台大醫院這裡未必澄清你講的未必是事實我們都還認證好好沒問題我們都有紀錄"},{"start":832.416,"end":855.743,"text":"兩位部長跟人你們看看台大醫院的這個工會在12月12號就是不久前一個月前聲明台大醫院性騷事件工會會要完善性平制度你們兩個有沒有看到這個這份聲明他向台大醫院院方指出說他說要公佈性平會的成員名單除了可以讓當事人檢視以外也可以加強外部機制但是你們始終不可我想請問你發生這麼多事情以後院長你還強調說這個性平會委名單不能公佈嗎為什麼人家這個勞動部可以公佈"},{"start":862.345,"end":888.107,"text":"然後外部部我覺得工會有他們的立場你的姓平會根本沒有成員我們在這裡也要必須要講有沒有外部專家工會有他們的立場但是不一定都會講明這是對的姓平會是不是有外部專家有 有外部專家你都不公開啊我們這時候都專家當時道德部製程還告訴我們有外部專家我們就是姓平委員會還有這一次我怎麼信任呢"},{"start":891.36,"end":897.804,"text":"所以我剛剛提出提案啊你名單又不公佈告訴我們有外部專家你們在騙誰 扶誰名單是沒有辦法公佈但是我們的委員裡面有三位外部都是這相關的專家然後每次的調查案都還會有兩個律師那都你說的啦 我看沒啦對 是"},{"start":910.991,"end":916.594,"text":"是但是這個我只能夠跟你講事情就一直在遭還沒有結案當事人謝教授也沒有收到懲處還沒有正式懲處對不對還有很多這個居間這個在台大醫院在台大醫院我們是積極的調查我們也立即從這個結果主動調查不管您說的幾位案件但是他們有一些他的本質還是在叫職"},{"start":936.244,"end":942.873,"text":"所以在醫院的部分我們絕對是非常積極的調查也很清楚的有這個調查報告這都有一面之詞嘛這都有一面之詞這個都有調查報告而且在六月份的時候考積委會已經寄達過一次那為什麼不公佈我跟你講你公佈有公佈的方法學學勞動部"},{"start":954.907,"end":974.619,"text":"因為它不是法律案件所以沒有辦法公佈台灣不是法律案件你要破壞繼續破壞醫療機構的形象嗎其實我們還是公家單位要有法可以有法可以依法行政這件事情台大醫院都依法行政因為我們也主動通報其實你看那個性騷法只屬的台北市政府"},{"start":975.72,"end":992.881,"text":"那個禁殺法裡面都有我想今天我們在立法院我們在公家機關我們做事就是要有法可依有法可行依法行政這件事情我們都依法行政我們的結果也不只給台灣大學我們也給台北市醫師公會也有給全聯會然後有相關的衛福部"},{"start":994.403,"end":1013.216,"text":"或甚至你剛才講你批的那個也是送給總統府所以我們完全依法而且立即處理那真的是挑燈夜戰沒有一分的延遲那另外我在這裡也趁機我想這裡有很多媒體我在這裡趁機一次把謝謝委員給我們一次說清楚"},{"start":1013.776,"end":1024.301,"text":"在這個案子裡面在整個調查過程當中並沒有台大醫院並沒有受到任何的壓力我們也沒有收到任何的關訴我不知道這是從何而來"},{"start":1026.243,"end":1032.247,"text":"你要聽聽被害人的聲音啊 你身為院長好 最後你們是自己臺灣女醫師協會對姓名事件的聲明這個我不在這邊同念因為整個姓名三法的不同身份狀態事件發生或情境等等 適用不同那看似好像可以適用 但是實務進度上可能造成這個法規適用的重疊或者漏洞我跟你講每個機構都有說要申報內部的申報機制 但是不好嘛部長你剛剛談到 我舉給你看嘛 140個人你找出了誰 你怎麼找的"},{"start":1056.663,"end":1070.729,"text":"那台大醫院這件事情都還沒有解決啊這個都醫生考完專科醫師指導才敢出來講才敢跟立委申訴啊表示什麼他害怕啊害怕啊院長請你好好三思齁我這時間到了不然我還有更好的表達好謝謝主席謝謝陳委員謝謝部長還有吳院長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:24:03.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:24:03.109000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩邱部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T09:24:03.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:24:03.129000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:24:03.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:24:03.529000+08:00","text":"部長，你們那一份不公開的霸凌調查報告，人事處處長已經到我辦公室來說明。是。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:24:03.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:24:04.470000+08:00","text":"我個人看過以後完全不能接受，部長，你怎麼會去買單這個由呂次長交出來簡直是草率至極的報告？","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:24:04.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:24:04.790000+08:00","text":"我想請問你，你看過這個報告沒有？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:24:33.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:24:33.502000+08:00","text":"你沒有看嘛？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:24:34.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:24:39.264000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我來告訴你，我是如何聆聽跟強記的，因為他把資料帶回去了。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:24:39.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:25:01.192000+08:00","text":"部長，你看一下投影片，我們來看一下這個調查報告的內容，因為我收到最多的是衛福部來自對主秘的投訴，我以他為例，因為資料很多，以對主秘的調查來說，總共140份的匿名問卷當中，有47份指出劉主秘曾經歇斯底里的大聲咆哮，這個占了33.6%，還有52份的問卷指出劉主秘有言語、肢體或心理暴力的行為，這個占37%。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:25:01.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:25:01.372000+08:00","text":"一個33.6%，一個37%。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:25:01.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:25:02.273000+08:00","text":"部長，你不覺得這個調查的內容跟你的調查結論「霸凌不成立」，落差很大嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:25:02.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:25:28.393000+08:00","text":"三成的人都說他有霸凌行為，結果調查說霸凌不成立，部長，發生什麼事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:25:29.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:25:30.876000+08:00","text":"你沒看過，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:25:30.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:25:31.516000+08:00","text":"你沒看過！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:25:31.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:25:33.959000+08:00","text":"好，你繼續，部長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T09:25:33.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:25:35.380000+08:00","text":"我們尊重調查委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:25:35.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:25:36.701000+08:00","text":"又來了，你完全不負責任嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:25:37.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:25:43.688000+08:00","text":"來，除了問卷調查報告，調查小組也有進行訪談，我請問你，訪談的人是誰？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:25:43.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:25:44.109000+08:00","text":"怎麼找的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:25:44.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:25:46.892000+08:00","text":"因為人事處長沒有辦法回答我，你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:25:46.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:25:46.932000+08:00","text":"怎麼找的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:25:50.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:25:52.352000+08:00","text":"我來教你好了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:25:52.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:26:18.668000+08:00","text":"針對劉玉娟的案子，訪問了17個人，其中15位都說主秘沒有問題，你們就用這15個人的說法說霸凌沒有成立，但17位裡面有2位受訪者寫出了這樣的東西；還有五十幾份問卷，剛剛我已經秀給大家看了，有百分之三十幾認為是有霸凌，符合你們訂的霸凌標準。","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:26:20.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:26:39.878000+08:00","text":"這17位我不知道你們是怎麼挑的，但裡面有2份這樣的留言：「劉玉娟在臺北業務組沒有直接對我大聲咆哮，但我看過幾次劉玉娟對同仁咆哮，但我不記得具體內容」、「我們做得那麼辛苦，還要被罵，覺得很委屈，錄音檔的內容就跟我當時感受一樣，很像他會講的話，語氣就是他的講話風格，讓你感到不舒服」。","quality":0.785},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:26:39.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:27:00.884000+08:00","text":"部長，你們應該建立機制，讓那五十幾位認為他曾經、經常或總是有霸凌者接受訪談，結果你隨便找了17人，然後說裡面有15個人說他沒問題，這樣的報告會不會失真？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:27:01.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:27:03.145000+08:00","text":"部長，如果你是我，你買單嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T09:27:03.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:27:06.826000+08:00","text":"可不可以容許我請召集人呂次來說明，他比較……","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:27:07.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:27:08.047000+08:00","text":"部長，我還沒有結束，呂次長，你好好聽，你站著好好聽。","quality":0.524},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:27:11.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:27:28.318000+08:00","text":"部長，請繼續看投影片上面的這些字，這些字眼都是匿名的人留下來的，你看衛福部員工，就是你管理的衛福部員工用文字寫下來的恐懼，中間的文字是：「衛福部官官相護，只想草草結案官場現象，對衛福部沒信心」、「難道反映了就會有用嗎？","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:27:28.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:27:30.260000+08:00","text":"可能事後只會被弄得更慘」、「無法確保人身及職場安全，因此無法留下聯絡資訊」。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:27:30.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:27:47.909000+08:00","text":"請看右邊的留言：「我們只是想要好好工作，大家擔心的是秋後算帳」、「仍在衛福部任職，怕被秋後算帳，所以不留」、「可見的霸凌行為包括咆哮、謾罵、冷落、惡意批評或貶低等多種樣態，也出現明顯耍官威破壞組織體制」。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:27:48.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:28:10.741000+08:00","text":"左邊的部分：「擔心不可預測的後續權益受損」、「被罵最慘的是科長以上及秘書同仁，身為旁觀者因為工作環境不佳也隨時想辭去公職，如果沒有調查到對的人，是沒有辦法問出事實的」。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:28:11.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:28:14.123000+08:00","text":"好，這是你的員工留下的文字、恐懼，我讓你參考。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:28:15.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:28:15.604000+08:00","text":"呂次長，你也跟著聽。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:28:17.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:28:29.753000+08:00","text":"部長，劉玉娟叫人家自殺的錄音檔流出來以後，你們記他兩支申誡，免兼社保司司長，但外界質疑他還是主秘，你一直告訴我們主秘只是幕僚單位來替他開脫，這是騙外行人啊！來！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:28:29.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:28:30.774000+08:00","text":"看看衛福部的處務規程，主秘的權責是什麼？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:28:30.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:28:44.883000+08:00","text":"匡起來的部分是第三條，其中第二款：「機密及重要文件之處理。","quality":0.56},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:28:45.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:28:51.748000+08:00","text":"」我當時就擔心會秋後算帳，員工不肯講真話，所以我問了人事處處長，他說是他在管理，沒有問題。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:28:51.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:28:55.611000+08:00","text":"但我問他：主秘是你的上司，他說要看，你敢不給他看嗎？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:28:55.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:28:58.533000+08:00","text":"其實就算現在不看，事過境遷後，他也完全可以看啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:28:58.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:29:09.084000+08:00","text":"因為衛福部的機密及重要資料都是他在處理的，部長，在這個情況下，誰敢說真話？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:29:09.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:29:13.007000+08:00","text":"他的職權就是機密及重要文件之處理啊！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:29:14.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:29:17.231000+08:00","text":"部長，你繼續看，呂次長，你也好好聽著。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:29:19.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:29:27.579000+08:00","text":"你一直說要尊重調查小組的專業，但是調查小組成員名單不公布，調查結果也不讓大家知道！","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:29:28.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:29:34.166000+08:00","text":"我們看看勞動部的兩次調查報告，勞動部至少第一次調查報告有載明調查小組成員，調查報告還公開傳上網，你們衛福部差很多，輸人家很多喔！","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:29:34.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:29:37.170000+08:00","text":"你跟我說的藉口，人家勞動部至少做到了，你如果不知道怎麼做，可以去問洪申翰怎麼做。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:29:49.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:29:57.278000+08:00","text":"不過洪部長，你們現在也有新的案子發生，我希望你秉持一貫水準，好好處理，今天好像又有新案子發生。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:29:58.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:30:05.086000+08:00","text":"部長，上次我們要求你公開報告，你私底下跟我們委員講，如果我們不滿意，會再進一步處理。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:30:05.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:30:09.611000+08:00","text":"我現在就告訴你，我不滿意，證據我已經告訴大家了，請問你要怎麼做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:30:11.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:30:28.476000+08:00","text":"上次你跟呂次長一直擔心說公開報告以後，會讓人按圖索驥知道約談哪些人，我看過報告以後，覺得這完全是藉口，你看今天的報告，有哪裡看出是誰被約談？有嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:30:28.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:30:32.597000+08:00","text":"所以我今天已經再次提案，我跟總召報備了，要求公開報告並重啟調查，如果有誰要護短，那我們就表決，讓大家看看是誰在護短？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:30:41.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:30:44.698000+08:00","text":"到底是誰反對公開這個「用心高規格」卻又不敢讓社會知道的調查內容報告！","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:30:44.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:30:44.898000+08:00","text":"呂次長，你可以請回座。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:30:44.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:30:45.579000+08:00","text":"邱部長，我們再來看臺大醫院，臺大醫院性騷案……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T09:30:45.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:30:45.979000+08:00","text":"可不可以給我們回答一下？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:30:46.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:30:46.079000+08:00","text":"好，請說。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T09:30:59.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:09.771000+08:00","text":"非常感謝陳昭姿委員對於我們同仁的關心，我想我們大家都希望能夠為同仁創造一個更好的環境，不過我想委員應該……","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:09.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:13.292000+08:00","text":"我剛剛提到的那些缺點，報告裡面的瑕疵……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:15.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:24.535000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我想委員也在學術界待過，也做過量化及質化的研究，特別是質化的研究，我們有對當事人……其實在做任何研究之前……","quality":0.804},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:24.535000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:26.676000+08:00","text":"你那個調查我已經講了，五十幾個人覺得有問題，你找了17個人，有15個人說沒問題，你的答案就是沒問題！","quality":0.049},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:26.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:31.938000+08:00","text":"都有做隱私保護，我想這個都有簽……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:31.938000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:32.938000+08:00","text":"我時間有限……","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:31.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:33.378000+08:00","text":"所以這些在程序上面都必須……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:33.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:34.078000+08:00","text":"我不滿意嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:34.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:37.879000+08:00","text":"你當初說不滿意就會再繼續處理，那就繼續處理，好嗎？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:38.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:39.660000+08:00","text":"我今天有提臨時提案……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:39.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:43.041000+08:00","text":"這是第一點，另外第二點，確實整個過程我們都是遵照部長指示……","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:43.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:47.682000+08:00","text":"你要想辦法讓人家願意公開講真話，不能說他不肯來，就沒辦法……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:47.682000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:48.682000+08:00","text":"公開的方式……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:48.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:49.242000+08:00","text":"那還調查什麼！","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:49.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:50.463000+08:00","text":"我們本來就是用公開的方式。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:51.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:52.069000+08:00","text":"我剛剛講了那麼多缺點，你不要再反駁了，你就針對我剛剛講的缺點去處理就好了。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:52.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:52.209000+08:00","text":"好，請回。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:52.209000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:31:53.209000+08:00","text":"感謝委員，非常感謝你。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:31:52.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:32:29.943000+08:00","text":"吳院長，2019年8月，臺大急診醫學部宋姓管理師動手摸女同事的腰跟臀部，這已經發生了，臺大醫院不是第一回；2023年6月，臺大女教授揭露自己在當研修醫師時，曾在開刀房遇到性騷擾，自己站在對方背後觀摩開刀實況時，某教授說出「今天怎麼這麼小」的評論，意思是某教授無法從背後感知他的胸部大小；去年9月，臺大骨科部主任強制猥褻；難怪有人說陽光灑不進白色巨塔。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:32:37.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:32:58.607000+08:00","text":"我再問你，除此之外，去年6月，那時候你在職了，精神科大老李明濱醫師也爆出性騷擾案，他不僅僅是台灣自殺防治學會理事長，也是衛福部委辦的臺灣全國自殺防治中心計畫主持人，曾在臺大醫院精神部受訓的女醫師向媒體投訴，請聽好啊！","quality":0.755},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:32:58.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:33:27.040000+08:00","text":"李明濱的性騷行為是一件「只要在臺大精神醫學部受訓過的女性，都必須瞭解、被口耳相傳、被『交班』的事情」，對於初入精神科的住院醫師來說，幾乎是毀滅性的傷害，所以當時就有醫師說：院內申訴管道是最大障眼法，若不痛定思痛，還會有無數個李明濱！","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:33:28.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:33:39.079000+08:00","text":"請問吳院長，今天臺灣大學派了主秘來，校長真是藐視國會，將近一年半的時間，你們有痛定思痛嗎？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:33:39.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:33:39.819000+08:00","text":"你們做了什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:33:39.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:33:43.340000+08:00","text":"吳院長，對於李明濱醫師被指控的部分，你們做了什麼？","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:33:43.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:33:44.981000+08:00","text":"還有前面的部分，你們做了什麼改變？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:33:49.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:34:00.773000+08:00","text":"好，我可以先回答一下，其實上面有數據，只要有申訴人提出性騷擾，事實上在院內就已經處理，從110年就處理過很多案子，數字我會給你……","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:34:01.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:34:05.074000+08:00","text":"後面還有很多問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:34:05.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:34:08.775000+08:00","text":"有關黃姓女教授的那個問題，我一定要澄清，因為黃姓女教授當那個……","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:34:14.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:34:17.838000+08:00","text":"不是在這邊澄清，我們要求的是調查報告，這是制度的問題。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:34:17.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:34:20.960000+08:00","text":"有，有，你們要求的報告，我們一定都會有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:34:21.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:34:29.284000+08:00","text":"邱部長，剛剛我說的李明濱部分，他現在還有重要職位，是專科醫學會，你在乎這個問題嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:34:29.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:34:31.666000+08:00","text":"還是你們要切割？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:34:31.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:34:32.926000+08:00","text":"你要不要持最高道德標準？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T09:34:33.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:34:36.048000+08:00","text":"他現在已經沒有擔任衛福部的任何工作了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:34:37.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:34:37.649000+08:00","text":"你確定？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:34:39.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:34:40.350000+08:00","text":"上次我們……確定。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:34:43.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:34:49.093000+08:00","text":"但是你要有辦法，不是說這一次因為堵不住那個女醫師出來投訴，所以你就做了一個因人設事的處理。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:34:49.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:35:09.487000+08:00","text":"好，還有臺大婦產部楊主任在他的自己寫的聲明中提到，自己獲悉C教授疑似對被害人進行性騷擾一事後，為了保護被害人並協助其保全相關證據，僅私下詢問是否尚有其他人證或物證。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:35:09.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:35:14.471000+08:00","text":"這個楊主任沒說還好，一段話內的三句話都有問題，什麼叫自己獲悉？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:35:15.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:35:17.654000+08:00","text":"難道這個是正式管道告訴他的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:35:17.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:35:18.114000+08:00","text":"還是有人洩密？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:35:18.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:35:20.156000+08:00","text":"不是只有當事人可以知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:35:20.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:35:21.117000+08:00","text":"他為什麼會自己獲悉？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:35:21.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:35:34.351000+08:00","text":"第二個，保護被害人並協助保全相關證據，照理說被害人沒有跟他陳述，他不應該知道被害人是誰，性平會調查是秘密進行，他也沒有權力去保護被害人保全證據。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:35:35.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:35:42.218000+08:00","text":"第三個，僅私下詢問是否有其他人證、物證，我可不可以合理懷疑他是在通風報信、帶風向？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:35:42.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:35:47.363000+08:00","text":"他想要問這個被害人到底知道什麼，好回去跟C教授說「他只有這個證據，你還有辦法處理嗎？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:35:47.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:35:47.503000+08:00","text":"」這像話嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:35:47.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:35:47.643000+08:00","text":"楊主任講這個話像話嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:35:47.643000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:35:55.408000+08:00","text":"院長，你有在聽吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:35:55.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:02.592000+08:00","text":"我跟你說，你也知道我們全家都是臺大校友，我絕對是該做的事是愛之深、責之切，不對的事就是要處理。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:03.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:10.476000+08:00","text":"臺大校本部接獲這個投訴案以後，為什麼今天臺大校長不過來？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:10.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:16.540000+08:00","text":"兩邊推來推去，你晚交報告，他又把你退回去，聽說來來回回10次，到底是誰要隱瞞這件事情？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:17.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:18.641000+08:00","text":"到底是誰想拖延這個事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:20.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:21.563000+08:00","text":"來來回回的，到現在沒有正式的懲處。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:24.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:27.890000+08:00","text":"可以給我一個時間，我謝謝陳委員……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:28.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:29.811000+08:00","text":"拜託主席讓我講……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:29.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:30.691000+08:00","text":"好，你講。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:31.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:35.874000+08:00","text":"你很快的告訴我，我剛剛質問你的問題，來來回回這麼多次是在拖延嗎？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:35.874000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:36.874000+08:00","text":"還在息事寧人！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:35.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:42.378000+08:00","text":"這一件事情其實是院方主動立案，因為沒有申訴人，我們聽聞有這樣的消息就主動立案。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:43.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:46.180000+08:00","text":"第二個，我們總共開了一次工作小組……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:46.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:46.880000+08:00","text":"不對喔！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:47.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:50.003000+08:00","text":"那天醫師考完專科醫師執照後就趕去跟很多人申訴喔！","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:50.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:52.205000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，那個都有給……我知道……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:52.205000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:53.206000+08:00","text":"還要等到考完專科醫師後才敢申訴。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:53.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:58.551000+08:00","text":"有6次調查報告，有2次委員會……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:58.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:36:59.332000+08:00","text":"你就是遲交嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:36:59.332000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:37:00.332000+08:00","text":"而且我們考績委員會也……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:37:00.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:37:01.654000+08:00","text":"這有一定的時間，你就是遲交嘛！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:37:01.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:37:04.397000+08:00","text":"沒有遲交，因為根據我們的……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:37:04.397000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:37:05.397000+08:00","text":"你要我找臺大校長來對質嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:37:05.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:37:08.360000+08:00","text":"其實在2月立案，6月就已經做出懲處。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:37:09.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:37:11.863000+08:00","text":"一直說你的報告不完整，挑剔你，有瑕疵啊！","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:37:12.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:37:25.734000+08:00","text":"沒有申訴人，是沒有時間的一個報告，但是院方主動……根據我們性騷法的規定，委員大家可以看，假如是有申訴人，必須要在2加1個月……","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:37:25.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:37:27.816000+08:00","text":"你的處理我還有很多的意見。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:37:27.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:37:33.100000+08:00","text":"好，那我再講，楊主任並不是裡面的委員……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:37:33.100000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:37:34.100000+08:00","text":"那他怎麼會知道這件事呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:37:33.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:37:36.562000+08:00","text":"他知悉是因為……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:37:36.562000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:37:37.562000+08:00","text":"他還對當事人詢問耶！","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:37:36.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:37:49.232000+08:00","text":"他被調來做調查小組的時候，他是被叫來問，他才知道有這件事情，所以楊主任沒有講得很清楚，謝謝委員讓我澄清，事實上臺大醫院……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:37:50.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:37:50.533000+08:00","text":"這你未必澄清喔！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:37:50.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:37:52.814000+08:00","text":"你講的未必是事實，我們都還要認證。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:37:52.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:37:54.155000+08:00","text":"好，沒問題，我們都有紀錄。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:37:56.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:08.020000+08:00","text":"部長跟院長，你們看看臺大醫院工會在12月12號不久前的聲明，針對臺大醫院性騷事件，工會呼籲要完善性平機制，你們兩個有沒有看到這份聲明？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:09.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:17.023000+08:00","text":"他們向臺大醫院院方提出，應該要公布性平會的成員名單，除了可以讓當事人檢視以外，也可以加強外部機制，但是你們始終不參採。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:17.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:18.463000+08:00","text":"我想請問你，發生這麼多事情後，院長還強調這個性平會委員名單不能公布嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:18.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:18.723000+08:00","text":"為什麼勞動部可以公布？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:18.723000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:25.345000+08:00","text":"等一下、等一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:25.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:26.606000+08:00","text":"然後衛福部……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:26.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:27.027000+08:00","text":"我覺得工會……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:27.027000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:28.027000+08:00","text":"要不要設立……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:27.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:29.889000+08:00","text":"工會有他們的立場……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:29.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:31.370000+08:00","text":"你們的性平會根本沒有成員，你們有沒有外部專家？","quality":0.476},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:31.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:32.932000+08:00","text":"不是、不是，我在這裡必須要講……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:32.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:34.012000+08:00","text":"有沒有外部專家？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:34.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:38.496000+08:00","text":"工會有他們的立場，但是不一定工會講的就是對的。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:38.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:41.078000+08:00","text":"很好，那我回到性平會，性平會是不是要設有外部專家？","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:41.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:43.280000+08:00","text":"有，有外部專家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:43.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:44.141000+08:00","text":"你都不公開啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:44.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:47.844000+08:00","text":"這個時候你就說有專家，當時勞動部至少還告訴我們有外部專家。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:47.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:49.866000+08:00","text":"我們高副就是性平委員會，還有這一次……","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:49.866000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:50.866000+08:00","text":"這樣他怎麼信任呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:50.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:51.087000+08:00","text":"怎麼信任呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:54.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:55.421000+08:00","text":"所以我剛剛提出提案啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:55.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:56.961000+08:00","text":"你名單又不公布，告訴我們有外部專家，你們要騙誰、唬誰！","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"高副院長淑芬","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:56.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:58.082000+08:00","text":"基本上名單是沒辦法公布，但是我們的委員裡面有3位外部……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:58.082000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:38:59.082000+08:00","text":"勞動部就可以公布，你不能公布？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高副院長淑芬","start":"2025-01-02T09:38:58.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:39:00.183000+08:00","text":"都是相關的專家，每次的調查案都還會有兩個律師一起。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:39:00.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:39:00.744000+08:00","text":"那都是你說的，我們都看不到啦！","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"高副院長淑芬","start":"2025-01-02T09:39:00.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:39:16.292000+08:00","text":"對，但是我只能跟你講我們確實有在……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:39:16.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:39:16.833000+08:00","text":"但事情就一直燃燒，還沒有結案啊！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:39:16.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:39:17.453000+08:00","text":"當事人C教授也還沒有受到正式懲處啊，對不對？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:39:17.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:39:17.553000+08:00","text":"還有很多有力人士在居間處理啊！","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"高副院長淑芬","start":"2025-01-02T09:39:17.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:39:19.174000+08:00","text":"在臺大醫院，我們是積極調查，我們也立即從這個結果主動調查，不管您說的幾位案件……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:39:19.174000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:39:20.174000+08:00","text":"現在還沒有解決嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:39:20.174000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:39:21.174000+08:00","text":"還是懸案嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高副院長淑芬","start":"2025-01-02T09:39:19.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:39:43.389000+08:00","text":"但是他們的本職還是教職，所以在醫院的部分，我們絕對是非常積極調查，也很清楚的有調查報告……好啦！","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:39:43.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:39:44.050000+08:00","text":"謝謝你說明，這都是一面之詞嘛！","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:39:44.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:39:45.031000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，這不是一面之詞，這都有調查報告，而且在6月份的時候，考績委員會已經記大過一次。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:39:45.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:39:45.292000+08:00","text":"那為什麼不公布？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:39:45.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:39:45.852000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，公布有公布的方法，學學勞動部，你看看……最後，因為時間有限……","quality":0.536},{"speaker":"高副院長淑芬","start":"2025-01-02T09:39:57.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:40:01.029000+08:00","text":"因為它不是法律案件，所以沒有辦法公布。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:40:01.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:40:02.409000+08:00","text":"不是法律案件？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:40:02.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:40:04.050000+08:00","text":"你要繼續破壞醫療機構的形象嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:40:04.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:40:14.517000+08:00","text":"不是，其實我們公家單位還是要有法可依、有法可循、依法行政，這件事情臺大醫院都依法行政，因為我們也主動通報，其實你看性騷法……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:40:14.517000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:40:16.178000+08:00","text":"好，最後一張簡報，你們看你們的醫師……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:40:16.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:40:28.452000+08:00","text":"直屬的臺北市政府，性騷法裡面都有，今天我們在立法院，我們在公家機關，做事就是要有法可依、有法可循、依法行政，這一件事情我們都依法行政。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"高副院長淑芬","start":"2025-01-02T09:40:28.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:40:48.731000+08:00","text":"我們的結果也不只給臺灣大學，也給臺北市醫師公會，也有給全聯會，然後相關的衛福部，或甚至你剛才講李P的那個也是送給總統府，所以我們完全依法，而且立即處理，真的是挑燈夜戰，沒有一分延遲。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T09:40:48.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:41:07.301000+08:00","text":"另外，這裡有很多媒體，我在這裡謝謝委員給我們一次說清楚，在這個案子的整個調查過程當中，臺大醫院並沒有受到任何壓力，也沒有受到任何關說，我不知道這是從何而來。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:41:09.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:41:09.663000+08:00","text":"你要聽聽被害人的聲音，你身為院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:41:09.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:41:13.346000+08:00","text":"最後，你們自己是醫師，台灣女醫師協會對於性平事件的聲明，我就不在這邊重唸，因為整個性平三法是參照受害者的不同身分狀態、案件發生的情境等，分別適用不同的處理機制，看似好像可以適用，但在實務運作上可能造成法規適用的重疊或漏洞。","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:41:13.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:41:14.767000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，每個機構都有其內部的申報機制，但是沒用嘛！","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:41:14.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:41:15.167000+08:00","text":"部長，你剛剛談到，我舉例給你看，140個人，你找出了誰？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:41:15.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:41:15.227000+08:00","text":"你怎麼找的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:41:39.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:41:41.724000+08:00","text":"臺大醫院的這個事情都還沒有解決啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:41:42.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:41:46.446000+08:00","text":"這個醫生考完專科醫師執照才敢出來講、才敢跟立委申訴啊！","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:41:46.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:41:47.086000+08:00","text":"表示什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:41:47.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:41:47.807000+08:00","text":"他害怕啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:41:48.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:41:49.848000+08:00","text":"院長，請你好好三思。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T09:41:51.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:41:53.229000+08:00","text":"我的時間到了，不然我還有更多的表達，謝謝主席。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T09:41:53.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T09:41:53.729000+08:00","text":"是超過了，不是到了，謝謝陳委員，也謝謝部長及吳院長。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T09:41:54.229000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T09:41:57.086143+08:00","text":"接續請林月琴委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}