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麻煩我們的勞動部的洪部長跟衛福部的邱部長和教育部的吳林輝司長好 要進入到今天主題之前 先問兩個部長上週開放80歲以上免聘的聘僱移工已經強制通過"},{"start":34.423,"end":57.315,"text":"先問勞動部這樣子的衝擊是什麼跟林委員說明那確實在我想立法院在修這個救護法46條的時候那可能初衷是在想說怎麼讓很多的家庭看護工的申請人可以更方便那這個我們理解"},{"start":58.095,"end":76.218,"text":"那但是確實在這個跨國勞動力的供給跟需求上面因為供給一直以來都有這個來源母國的限制這完全他不是完全可以操控在本國政府手上的事情所以我們確實很擔心其實這個修法過後"},{"start":77.559,"end":104.305,"text":"會在供需上面更加的失衡那如果供需更加失衡的話可能會導致這個會有一些看護工他這個器重則輕所以會有一些重症尤其他們是最需要照顧的家庭他們其實未來可能要找看護工更困難或者是要留人也更困難的狀況這變成是對於這些最需要的人在他們的權益上面會受到衝擊"},{"start":105.734,"end":112.776,"text":"所以不只是挑工的問題會不會讓價錢往上漲之後讓很多家庭是沒辦法負擔的"},{"start":114.368,"end":140.725,"text":"確實在這樣子的搶工狀況之下可能就會有蠻多的家庭他們會選擇這個薪資上面的負擔要再往上提高那這個可能會是整體的會要加錢或者要提高成本來聘股其實就有點像是當時在幾年前疫情的那個狀況會可能會有點類似那這是我們目前其實大概預判可能會有的幾個相關的衝擊"},{"start":142.224,"end":166.014,"text":"好 謝謝那衛福部呢 邱部長好 謝謝NC我們勞動部的說明以外我接著再補充一點就是我們在其實80歲以上的老人有些還是不一定是需要聘請他的健康狀況所以過去多了一層醫療的一個評估其實這個醫療的巴士量表對醫師來講是一種"},{"start":169.416,"end":193.115,"text":"很不喜歡的責任因為在評估上面真的要非常的小心以前還動輒得救這樣子但是基於對於我們真的把那麼稀少的一個外籍過來的人力能夠用在重重度真的需要的病人身上這是我想我是醫療界也是必須要去承擔這個社會的責任"},{"start":194.796,"end":221.483,"text":"那第二個就是說那個因為我們這些比較稍微還可以自己照顧的我們很希望他能夠到一對多到據點到關懷據點到各個出來走出家裡去跟人家互動那這種所謂的一對多的照顧會讓他的一個精神狀況或者是智能的一個維持會更好如果說你就一對一我就把他關在家裡"},{"start":223.854,"end":244.379,"text":"我們很擔心從政方的狀況來講他的失能的狀況是不是會變得比較快所以好像看起來跟我們2008年WHA提出來的政策不太一樣就是說本來我們就是希望活力老化結果反而事實上80歲結果反而事實上更多的人被照顧之後反而讓他"},{"start":244.929,"end":270.122,"text":"更快的老化那謝謝兩位部長那今天要來談也就是說性平三法3月8號公佈實施之後那遇到近日社會所矚目的臺大醫院的婦產科西教授的性騷案跟兒蒙的性騷案跟麥當勞的性侵案所以本席認為應該要針對這些相關的法律來做討論首先先想要問的是"},{"start":273.264,"end":294.483,"text":"針對於也就是台大醫院西教授的新燒案當中去年初就在醫界流傳一直到去年10月的份有很多被害人一起跟我們的台大醫院院方檢舉才爆發可是其實到今年2月醫院才開啟內部的調查機制想問兩個部長跟司長"},{"start":296.411,"end":304.695,"text":"第一個台灣大學輻射醫院發生性騷案件主管單位是誰用哪一部法律來處理職場的職場的要不要先"},{"start":311.934,"end":333.129,"text":"三位應該是因為看起來那個受害者應該是住院醫師理論上屬於職場的這個性騷擾所以性供嗎還是性騷應該是依照性供法性供法那就是我們的勞動部那就回來再問那就要問勞動部在性供法裡面"},{"start":334.089,"end":350.079,"text":"的確沒有規定可是性騷的話所以就很特別今天如果是性供的話是勞動部那他沒有任何的時間規定可是性騷的話事實上是七日內應該要啟動調查那性貧的話事實上三日內那"},{"start":351.44,"end":373.873,"text":"醫院接受這樣的性騷 那到底要多久發動 你們現在講性供嗎那跟其他的 今天在醫院事實上是聘僱的一個關係裡邊可是實際上它又是政府部門 可是它又事實上是教職間我們的醫職所以難道不是我們的教育部性評嗎 難道不是衛福部主管的性騷嗎"},{"start":376.623,"end":401.014,"text":"跟委員說明確實在這個案子裡面這個教授他可能多重身份他可能有公務員的身份他可能是雇主但其實性供法是適用這些所有的身份的所以確實就這個法就這個相關因為他是在職場上面的案件來說目前應該會是用性供法來做相關的處理好那本案112年10月提出檢舉113年2月就開始啟動"},{"start":405.543,"end":408.764,"text":"台大醫院到底有沒有延遲調查這是不是請台大醫院務院長能夠幫忙再把流程這個案子我們會把整個那個"},{"start":423.723,"end":435.709,"text":"事實上這個案子並沒有申訴人那我們高淑芬副院長她是姓平衛的主任委員她主動知道沒有申訴人的話你們為什麼10月的確你們講說因為這檢舉案當中沒有申訴人可是為什麼2月就開始啟動10月底提出檢舉這事呢"},{"start":443.171,"end":470.236,"text":"就是因為我知道高副院長跟我報告的時候我馬上成立工作小組就是二月馬上成立因為高副院長跟我報告的時候他是我們的姓名會的主任委員他跟我報告的時候我馬上成立所以我才剛才有一加就是成立工作小組六次調查一加六加上兩次的委員會加上一次的考記委員會我們在六月就做出"},{"start":471.212,"end":494.003,"text":"那沒有申訴人的時候根據我們的法律其實它是沒有一個有申訴人是2加1最慢要在三個月做出來所以這個我們都有去就法律層面來看對 信銷的確事實上是要2加1然後可是信憑的話是2加1加1所以我不知道到底你們這個到底有沒有延遲"},{"start":495.1,"end":512.919,"text":"好我想沒有言辭我2月1號我收到學生受害者寫給我簡訊然後我也跟他談過那希望他能夠提出聲明學生是在醫院還是在學校醫院醫院那其實上他現在是碩士班的學生他是醫院的住院醫師那"},{"start":513.719,"end":533.533,"text":"2月2號我馬上就跟院長提我們就根據新改的一個法 僱主之息 新騷擾行為雖然他的本職是在學校但是以我們的經驗他現在在台大院發生這個事情所以我們還是把他納入就開始然後2月5號我們就開始調查"},{"start":534.694,"end":562.856,"text":"那這個過程其實只有三位受害者願意接受訪談那這個要訪談的人相當的多那我們也是要聚集專門的調查小組所以剛才提過我們有六次的調查那兩次的新燒這個會議所以在五月底這個調查結束的時候那我們就把這個做成之後再送給考機委員會所以在醫院的部分當我們知道有這個調查我們其實上就有希望這個櫃部"},{"start":564.677,"end":575.745,"text":"去執行讓他跟住院醫師做分開那他們執行的情形怎麼樣做我們有在follow就是所以在台大醫院的部分他本職雖然不在台大醫院我們是非常積極的那有剛才提到我們的委員以外我們有調查委員我們還有律師可是你剛剛講2月1號開始啟動調查你就接貨可是你4月15號你的婦產科楊主任才被通知要約談那事實上也超過了兩個月"},{"start":593.079,"end":593.301,"text":"已經兩個半月的時間"},{"start":595.452,"end":624.532,"text":"他而且5月才做出調查的一個結果確認新燒的成立這有沒有延遲呢好這個因為調查在這個部分是非常複雜無法在這因為我們要保護受害者他們都不願意出來所以這個整個在調查過程可是你剛講2月1號你們已經接貨了那如果立即啟動調查兩個月內要完成的話你4月15號用大家都看報紙的嘛4月15號你的楊主任才"},{"start":625.475,"end":642.476,"text":"通知被約談對因為這個之前我們都提早約談的話其實這些可能有潛在的不只這些可能會有一些更多的擔心但但是我們立即提供這個雖然我們不清楚說一定是誰我們不能公開"},{"start":643.016,"end":662.539,"text":"但是我們有提供一些情緒的支持等等然後也我不是要聽後邊的啦好那我想我要問的其實這個法律假如是雇主主動支息他並沒有2加1的這個規定這個是法律上面的不周全啦"},{"start":663.059,"end":683.167,"text":"但是我們為什麼會到4月才約談你可以想像假如一開始就約談楊主任這個沒辦法保護受害者我們一定是先調查一定是先調查對你們調查時間也延拖了蠻長的好先問台大醫院的那個事件"},{"start":685.582,"end":709.523,"text":"事件發生地 嫌疑人C教授是屬於臺灣大學 可是同時在臺大醫院任職那由事件發生地的雇主發起的調查應該是正當 可是臺灣大學不是在第一時間應該是要被要求配合調查嗎 因為他還是有教職 如果在教職裡邊有同樣的作為的話 那是不是這個嫌疑人也還是在學校裡邊 因為"},{"start":711.365,"end":718.181,"text":"那更是全是性騷的問題因為他在學校還有任職所以想問我們的教育部"},{"start":726.394,"end":755.207,"text":"過程當中我們看到的那個受害人都是屬於這個住院醫師所以當下並沒有察覺這個行為人跟被行為人是有失聲這樣的關係所以我們當時在二月的時候有同時啟動嗎還是等到台大醫院通知台大校方才開始去處理是調查結束之後是這有沒有應該第一時間應該台大校方應該要知道因為是他事實上是教職兼醫職可是"},{"start":755.962,"end":774.782,"text":"今天台大醫學院畢竟是台大醫院的等於是上邊的主管機關為什麼會不知道所以一樣的就是說那12月19號媒體訪問台大校長陳文章表示說信評會跟教評會獨立運作都做調查發生地的僱主跟聘僱的僱主同時發起調查這種狀況請問一下以誰為主"},{"start":779.57,"end":791.298,"text":"以這個行為人跟被行為人的關係為主因為憲兵法如果兩邊調查的結果不一致怎麼辦呢沒有為什麼說不是聯合一起啟動反而事實上是去分別"},{"start":792.717,"end":801.428,"text":"就剛才講因為一開始的時候並沒有察覺行為人跟被行為人是有失對生的關係沒有他是在同一個職場場域裡頭的這個上下這個長官所以本席認為發生這樣的狀況政府應該介入協調為單一調查的機制"},{"start":809.4,"end":822.446,"text":"本案應該由誰來協調台大醫院跟台灣大學跟委員報告就是這個案子從一開始確實是由這個台大醫院的這個委員會來做是我說那台大校方知道嗎"},{"start":823.838,"end":838.252,"text":"應該不知道 他是等到5月才知道所以對於本案 自始至終雙方的身份大家都應該保密可是這一點認為台大醫院有做到可是如果嫌疑人西教授在調查結果出來便獲准請辭"},{"start":839.973,"end":860.57,"text":"那接下來的程序勢必沒辦法進行所以如果遇到當事人如果不配合的話這如果是離職的時候你怎麼去因應各位報告因為他已經調查完成而且是成立的後面依照教師法就去討論他解聘以及管制聘用的這個部分程序並不會因為他辭職而停止一定會把他全部都走完"},{"start":862.839,"end":886.992,"text":"在調查程序當中嫌疑的C教授持續騷擾被害人還有對性評委員嗆聲那我就很好奇剛剛講說性評的委員的資訊都是不可揭露的那為什麼他會知道性評委員是誰還去嗆聲有符合被害人的保護規定嗎雇主應該要怎麼處置來避免我們的騷擾跟報復所以各位請我們的勞動部"},{"start":894.306,"end":904.456,"text":"就是回你的問題就是說像因為你們還是勞動的主管機關怎麼去避免這種那個跟騷和報復的對保護人保護是什麼"},{"start":909.227,"end":928.568,"text":"報告委員,這個部分的話,僱主要採取的有效措施,包括要立即要做一些隔離的這個動作那剛剛也有提到的是說,像這個被害人的部分的話那他有提出這個申訴的部分的話,那要做馬上的一些立即的一些處理"},{"start":932.698,"end":951.076,"text":"對本案處理上 我覺得蠻多荒謬 後續要怎麼改善 請衛福部跟教育部兩周內提出報告 另外在法官底下案件拖了一整年 到現在都還沒有結果出來那嫌疑人也跑了 被害人最後還是透過訴訟來要回他的權利空轉了一年 所以請"},{"start":952.574,"end":978.32,"text":"把報告就是他們在做司法救濟的時候事實上是我覺得政府部門還是有責任那再來問衛福部也就是孟志凱凱案發生之後9月3號就已經移到你們衛福部來做管轄可是12月又有週刊爆發說有性騷案件受害人上報主管主管竟然告訴他是嫌疑人貼心想追你那後續有六大重點針對他內部的處理機制"},{"start":981.261,"end":1005.796,"text":"想問我們的洪部長在性供法的架構下性騷擾行為是僱主的時候才向勞工檢舉這個案子的被害人卻是事後遭到不當安排而提出檢舉雖然檢舉內容不得而知可是可以理解的是性騷加上不當調職的所生的勞資爭議你處置這樣合理嗎結果事實上是受害人反而被調離職務被懲罰那勞動部可以做什麼"},{"start":1012.697,"end":1038.632,"text":"如果這個被害人認為說這個僱主其實沒有好好處理那那個調查結果不符勞工就可以直接向勞工局來提出申訴那外面的這個勞工局來做進一步的處理他查兩個部分如果他是對於這個性騷擾的認定有問題的話那他會直接來認定性騷擾的部分那第二個的話如果是僱主的責任違反的話他就會去調查僱主責任違反的部分來做處罰"},{"start":1040.551,"end":1053.732,"text":"威福部也想問你現在他已經改立在你們單位了那請問一下你們有沒有更積極的作為他事實上是一個兒童保護團體可是一再的出事顯示專業度不夠那威福部怎麼辦"},{"start":1056.105,"end":1078.447,"text":"他算是一個職場性騷也是一個權勢性騷那如果說他是在我們部裡頭是相關的這個財團法人那也有這個職場主人就場所主人的責任那我們會來要求地方政府對這個額蒙場所主人這個角色他在做性騷擾防治的工作上面加強做督導"},{"start":1080.43,"end":1097.681,"text":"所以希望你們可以幫我們把關尤其這次又發生這種狀況再來就是想問我們的勞動部有沒有去了解這個性侵案件申訴後的會議是主管會議還是調查委員會主管會議可以公開討論案情並作結論嗎"},{"start":1102.186,"end":1124.456,"text":"這個案子我們已經請台北市去做瞭解和處理那台北市已經查證過認為那個麥當勞的這個案子他並公司並沒有做後續的一些協助的這些方案那認定他是沒有做到立即有效補救措施對那一個這樣子的一個工作會議主管會議就可以提做出結論嗎沒有做任何的一個處理"},{"start":1125.892,"end":1154.228,"text":"這個部分的話他必須在程序上面要經過他們要成立調查單位那要成立調查小組在這個屬於比較大型的事業單位在100人以上他另外還是要請用外部的這個調查專家來做協助調查那這個部分會請台北市政府一併再來做一些檢視他前端的這個部分是不是有做到相關的程序好謝謝本案被害人嫌疑人多數"},{"start":1155.615,"end":1161.836,"text":"未成年的兒少要加強保護對象衛福部核實知情 想問部長你們做了什麼"},{"start":1163.654,"end":1189.64,"text":"這一案到113年的3月3號他離職後他到台北市政府的婦幼隊來舉報他遭性侵所以3月3號北市婦幼隊接獲報案之後就進行通報所以我們家房中心是在3月3號之後接案開始做被害人的輔助這個部分是在113年的3月3號而當時他已經年滿18"},{"start":1192.961,"end":1216.321,"text":"特別要跟委員說明好那教育部是不是應該要配合把性侵害被害人保護機制向高中以下的學生去做宣導然後那你們做了什麼請兩週內交報告最後就希望勞動部有勞動部要做的事情希望能夠督促雇主及時開啟調查然後限期提出結果跟"},{"start":1216.801,"end":1234.633,"text":"做出正確的處置那衛福部呢以保護的為要務那不能盡心學校雇主的能力隨時我們要提起我們的訴訟那教育部對於性學校園內的性犯罪的防治教育明顯不足要修正被害人的自救途徑以上謝謝謝謝林委員 謝謝兩位部長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}