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非常好按照你當初的軍令狀一個月之內要回報處理結果這個120幾案有沒有必要跟社會大眾做一個說明也展現一下你這個平台的執行成效"},{"start":142.587,"end":170.142,"text":"因為十二月十三開始然後一百多件差不多了因為他這個調查的過程基本上他內容是屬於各自的部分屬於密件那我們會就是人種的部分會持續的監督就是說回報處理的結果持續的監督回報處理結果對對對那我們會定期的對外來說一些公佈好你第一次打算對外做一次總體的公佈去展現這個平台處理成效的時間預計是什麼什麼時候"},{"start":172.078,"end":186.797,"text":"這個我可能要跟人總討論一下又要討論這樣是不是有點可惜因為他的行政罪我必須還是得要好沒關係至少今天在委員會答詢的時候有很有意義的數字叫一百二十幾件的具名已經立案的案件這我要提醒祕書長"},{"start":188.078,"end":206.618,"text":"我要提醒秘書長就是說這個東西不是說你內部調查調查完然後照你這個立案然後就把它結了就算了那這樣本質上這整件事情還是在這個從社會大眾的角度來看它還是屬於一個黑箱的狀況嘛因為你怎麼處理的你到最後怎麼樣你也不見得有一個對外說明的機制我現在講的這個事情已經不是"},{"start":207.259,"end":222.649,"text":"按照過去公部門處理的流程或什麼可以讓社會大眾幸福的所以你現在這個報應平台有成立你就要有一個定期對外的說明機制你要不要針對這個對外的說明機制你們現在針對這個事情的SOP也好時間表也好你們是怎麼抓的要不要說明一下"},{"start":224.345,"end":235.271,"text":"報告委員我想這個部分因為我剛才特別提到怎麼樣對外說明這個部分我們還是要跟人種這邊做一些討論那剛剛講那實際的調查的狀況我們是有是有在follow你"},{"start":240.453,"end":258.556,"text":"我的意思是說我當然給你一點時間給你一點空間是沒有問題但是這個對外說明的機制要非常的清楚這件事情要稍微公開透明不能再用黑箱的方式處理這是本席的第一個提醒主動通報到底有多少成效我們來追蹤第二個我要再問秘書長你覺得真的整個公部門你這麼大一部國家紀真的只有120案嗎"},{"start":259.995,"end":281.627,"text":"報告委員我剛才說明了這個120幾個案子不是行政院所屬機關因為它還包括了地方政府當然啦現在中央的部分大概是50幾案地方政府大概30幾案我現在問你是說你現在這是有通報的嘛以你在官場的這樣的經驗你真的覺得大家因為有這個平台就通通會通報嗎"},{"start":283.41,"end":310.161,"text":"應該不會吧我們是鼓勵啦鼓勵嘛對不對你也只能講鼓勵對不對那不敢通報的狀況你怎麼處理你覺得這個會不會是所謂的冰山一角一百二十案敢通報其實下面一千多案不敢通報本席還是認為非常高的可能是這樣所以除了你這個平台的處理機制之外不能只有這個平台我們剛剛看到你的各項策進措施裡面本席覺得比較有待嘉獎或者是有待討論的地方是如何辨識職場霸凌"},{"start":311.621,"end":336.02,"text":"如何讓大家從不敢通報然後變成說比較敢講出自己的委屈讓公部門的文化來做一個改變這本席提供你幾個建議啦這曾經在考試院的質詢的時候本席也提過辨別職場霸凌的情況也就是說你從領導這個國家機器這個角度來看第一這些單位不管他是中央政府的部會還是地方政府的特殊單位那個單位的離職率啊調職率啊有沒有異常的狀況"},{"start":336.781,"end":361.571,"text":"你看看當初的勞發署他是不是離職率非常異常當然我們這是事後爆發悲劇之後大家回頭去看才發現但他山之石嘛既然有這樣的案例是不是要做一個通盤的檢討第二烤雞的部分是很重要的啊我現在很擔心啊這公部門之所以會霸凌然後大家敢怒不敢言或者是有委屈往肚子裡吞那就是因為烤雞抓在長官手上萬一有像謝怡榮這種擅長向上經營的這種人"},{"start":363.852,"end":385.084,"text":"那壓力是很大的烤雞的部分要不要透明一點有沒有一個改善的機制那第三才是說個別公務員的工作量啊效率等等的情況這就比較細節了但是大多數這樣的一個精進措施你們現在行政院裡面有沒有討論也就是說在平台主動通報沒有辦法觸及到或者是沒有辦法改善的文化的部分識別的部分你們有什麼加強的措施"},{"start":387.634,"end":414.4,"text":"事實上人事總署他有您剛才提到的比如說離職率比較高的部分或怎樣人總如果發生這樣的狀況會讓這個所屬機關讓他理解說我們有注意到你們這邊離職率是比較高但是我跟委員報告離職率比較高不一定就是跟霸凌有同等關係當然有可能是泄漢這也值得關注有可能是很多的員工被挖角"},{"start":415.18,"end":422.99,"text":"因為他這個單位事實上他的員工非常非常優秀所以到處被挖走了所以當然你整個這麼多的部會這麼多的機關我們剛剛講的是特殊狀況嘛你看你如果講說過去有這個狀況勞發署的狀況你們有發現嗎"},{"start":431.018,"end":453.124,"text":"那個離職率非常高的狀況有發現嗎?人總有發現嗎?這個我要跟人總...你要再確認一下對不對?所以這個本來就是應該要列入督導的對象那我就要問啊如果說你這個行政機關除了讓他主動通報之外你還要主動掌握對不對?那你現在在主動掌握徹底了解這樣狀況的時候是由誰來追蹤?是由哪一個比如說政務委員嗎?或是誰來做督導?你們現在有沒有討論這件事情?"},{"start":453.924,"end":473.712,"text":"現在的追蹤機制就是人事總署因為它是人事是一條邊的所以它等於是所有的人事的體系裡面它是一個最頭所以基本上現在就是由人事行政總署來督導對不對然後把這些東西來做執行那你什麼時候可以提供一個我們剛剛講我想秘書長應該不會反對啊這個調職率離職率特殊狀況主義拿出來討論的你總有一些數據的收集吧"},{"start":478.914,"end":485.12,"text":"你覺得應不應該做一下掌握應該要掌握對不對好我給你一點時間但你什麼時候可以把這樣子的一個報告交出來"},{"start":486.378,"end":510.039,"text":"就是說所謂的我姑且稱之為霸凌高風險或者是說職場相對不友善這個名字怎麼舉我沒有意見但是這樣一個機制要出來人事行政總隊來做OK那你什麼時候可以提出一個初步的報告可以可以但是我跟委員報告我們會有附註說明就是說經過了解以後離職率比較高他跟霸凌事實上還是不太一樣你跟我講什麼時候有報告就好了"},{"start":511.279,"end":533.348,"text":"那給我們現在是現在是1月嘛是不是給我們一個月或兩個月的時間好我給你我給你兩個月啦好這個事情我們長期追蹤好但是這兩個月你不只要把這個東西交代出來也就是你的主動追查進度第二個你那個相關的平台的後續處遇啊你要怎麼跟社會擔當來說明啊你要一併把它想越清楚好不好好對不起主席我再用30秒這個"},{"start":535.79,"end":544.295,"text":"這個我本來期待前幾天在財政委員會就要問你這個事大家現在在講預算要刪28%我們下午要審你們的預算我們是要統統剪裂28%嗎"},{"start":545.56,"end":569.601,"text":"沒有啦沒有因為我上次問你的副秘書長啦我問他說這是不是行政院統一的命令因為他們一直在發圖卡啊然後我問他說是不是在簡歷28他沒有說不要不要我問他說這是不是行政院的命令然後副秘書長的回答還蠻經典的他說應該不是然後他說就我所知不是後來變就我所掌握的資料不是他不是領頭我不能為難他但你是秘書長到底是或不是啊你們有沒有下這個令啊"},{"start":570.021,"end":580.706,"text":"沒有沒有要重編沒有要重編對不對也沒有要產28%對不對沒有嘛沒有喔明年的部分沒有明年的部分沒有但是明年的部分沒有嘛對不對那我問你為什麼內政部又跑出來又講要產28%"},{"start":583.41,"end":610.235,"text":"因為在我們那個質詢結束之後 第二天內政部就上車了啊沒有 現在如果照牙列車翻車了 他又上車了怎麼辦如果按照現在 我媒體上看到了如果說現在的這個財務法會等到後面才送過來的話那我們可能就明年的部分就按照明年現在來處理你趕快對外做一個說明現在我那天答詢的時候 副秘書長那個給人家的結論是感覺各部位各搞各的各行其事那你行政院到底有沒有在領導啊"},{"start":611.474,"end":624.212,"text":"如果你講這是你下的令那也就算了各部位只是說明說財務法長期以來可能會造成影響那萬一最後啊萬一最後它不是針對明年萬一最後不是這樣的時候那是不是變造謠政府機關代表照是不對的啊民主黨"},{"start":625.154,"end":649.695,"text":"所以你趕快趁這個事還沒有成案落定之前趕快做同意澄清說明因為當初我們不清楚就是說財務法到底什麼時候會送到我們行政院來什麼時候會公佈實施那個時間點可能會...反正你很確定行政院沒有下這個令也沒有3288的問題嘛對不對明年的預算你還是希望我們支持預算嘛對不對對那你趕快說明啦不要再讓部會這邊上那個造謠列車的好不好這個監管的力道要稍微加強謝謝"},{"start":651.465,"end":652.487,"text":"那個應該是指14吧因為今天已經是是是是好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:22:05+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T10:22:06+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，龔秘書長有請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T10:22:06+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T10:22:07+08:00","text":"好，請秘書長。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:22:07+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T10:22:08+08:00","text":"牛委員早。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:22:07.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:22:08.096000+08:00","text":"秘書長，早安。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:22:08.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:22:12.579000+08:00","text":"今天終於見到你了，我很高興。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:22:12.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:22:15.881000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我們針對今天的主題先來做一下探討。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:22:16.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:22:23.905000+08:00","text":"現在大家討論是霸凌案，個案的部分我們就不多說了，但是我們要要求的是你的系統性的東西要做一個清楚、明白的說明。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:22:24.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:22:57.825000+08:00","text":"在你的書面報告裡面講，因應勞動部不幸的霸凌事件發生之後，你做了很多的改善措施，包含研討、研議強化法制事宜；包含提升公務人員的職業安全，思考在法制下強化監督、檢查等課責機制；並且加強提供心理健康支持、關懷諮詢、心理健康資源、友善觀念宣導等等；還有比較重要而且是大部分人比較關切的，其實是所謂院層級的職場霸凌案件通報平臺在12月13日號上路，對不對？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:22:57.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:22:58.525000+08:00","text":"我目前講的沒有錯吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:22:58.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:23:00.086000+08:00","text":"這都是你書面報告裡面的資料。是。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:23:01.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:23:09.390000+08:00","text":"其中在職場霸凌通報平臺裡面講說三天之內就要回復初步受理情形，一個月之內要給社會大眾一個清楚、明白的交代，對不對？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:23:09.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:23:14.331000+08:00","text":"我想這是當初卓院長開出的軍令狀，當然就應該來做執行。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:23:15.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:23:24.855000+08:00","text":"現在有這個單一窗口可以提出申訴，但是本席今天在質詢的時候要強調的是，除了被霸凌者的主動通報之外的其他改善措施。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:23:25.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:23:33.487000+08:00","text":"我們先從主動通報這件事情來討論一下，12月13日這個通報平臺上路之後，總共受理了多少件？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:23:34.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:23:34.989000+08:00","text":"處理的結果如何？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:23:37.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:23:38.064000+08:00","text":"雖然時間很短，沒關係。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:23:38.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:23:46.308000+08:00","text":"是，它有彙整，因為有一些人一案多報，或是有其他資料來源，彙整完以後，現在大概有一百二十幾個案子。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:23:46.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:23:47.529000+08:00","text":"有二十幾個案子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:23:47.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:23:48.090000+08:00","text":"一百二十幾個案子。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:23:48.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:23:49.670000+08:00","text":"一百二十幾個案子？是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:23:50.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:23:53.433000+08:00","text":"你都有在三天之內回報初步處理結果嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:23:53.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:23:55.274000+08:00","text":"他們處理的是要不要立案。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:23:56.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:23:57.674000+08:00","text":"要不要立案，什麼意思？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:23:57.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:24:08.123000+08:00","text":"因為有一些是匿名，有一些是事證怎樣……如果他是具名，一定是立案，但是有很多是匿名，那匿名的話就要……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:24:08.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:24:09.664000+08:00","text":"沒關係，具名的現在立案的有幾件？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:24:11.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:24:13.441000+08:00","text":"不是，現在具名的就是一百二十幾件。","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:24:14.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:24:15.542000+08:00","text":"具名的一百二十幾件，非常好！","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:24:16.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:24:26.707000+08:00","text":"按照你當初的軍令狀，一個月之內要回報處理結果，這一百二十幾案有沒有必要跟社會大眾做一個說明，也展現一下這個平臺的執行成效？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:24:27.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:24:31.049000+08:00","text":"因為12月13日開始，然後一百多件，差不多了，還剩兩個禮拜的時間欵！","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:24:31.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:24:44.717000+08:00","text":"因為這個調查的過程基本上它的內容是屬於個資的部分，屬於密件，人總會持續地監督，回報處理的結果。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:24:45.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:24:47.198000+08:00","text":"持續地監督，回報處理結果？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:24:47.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:24:51.500000+08:00","text":"對，我們會定期地對外做一些公布。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:24:51.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:24:55.122000+08:00","text":"好，你打算第一次對外做總體的公布去展現這個平臺處理成效的時間，預計是什麼時候？","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:24:57.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:24:58.400000+08:00","text":"這個我可能要跟人總討論一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:24:58.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:25:00.543000+08:00","text":"又變成要討論了，這樣是不是有點可惜？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:25:00.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:25:03.727000+08:00","text":"因為它的行政作業，我還是得要稍微知道。","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:25:04.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:25:04.548000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:25:04.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:25:10.355000+08:00","text":"至少今天在委員會答詢的時候，有一個很有意義的數字是一百二十幾件具名已經立案的案件。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:25:10.355000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T10:25:13.078000+08:00","text":"應該是這樣。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:25:13.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:25:29.396000+08:00","text":"我要提醒秘書長，這件事情不是你們內部調查，調查完就把這個立案結了就算了，這樣在本質上整件事情從社會大眾的角度來看還是屬於一個黑箱的狀況，因為你們怎麼處理的，到最後結果是怎麼樣，你們也不見得有一個對外說明的機制。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:25:29.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:25:47.629000+08:00","text":"我現在講的這個事情已經不是按照過去公部門處理的流程或什麼可以讓社會大眾信服的，所以現在這個霸凌平臺成立，就要有一個定期對外說明的機制，針對對外說明機制有沒有SOP也好、時間表也好，你們是怎麼抓的，要不要說明一下？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:25:49.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:26:00.210000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為我剛才特別提到怎麼樣對外說明，這個部分我們還是要跟人總做一些討論，不過實際的調查狀況，我們是有在follow。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:26:05.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:26:18.950000+08:00","text":"我的意思是，我當然會給你一點時間、給你一點空間，沒有問題，但是這個對外說明的機制要非常清楚，這件事情要稍微公開透明，不能再用黑箱的方式處理，這是本席的第一個提醒，主動通報到底有多少成效，我們來追蹤。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:26:18.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:26:23.556000+08:00","text":"第二個，我要再問秘書長，你覺得整個公部門這麼大一部國家機器，真的只有120案嗎？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:26:24.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:26:34.360000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我剛才有說明了，這一百二十幾個案子不是行政院所屬機關，還包括了地方政府。當然。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:26:35.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:26:39.183000+08:00","text":"現在中央的部分大概是五十幾案，地方政府大概三十幾案，還有一些是學校……","quality":0.645},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:26:39.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:26:46.627000+08:00","text":"我現在要問的是，這是有通報的，以你在官場的經驗，你真的覺得大家因為有這個平臺就會統統通報嗎？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:26:48.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:26:48.550000+08:00","text":"應該不會吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:26:48.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:26:49.851000+08:00","text":"我們是鼓勵啦，如果真的有這個情況……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:26:50.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:26:52.752000+08:00","text":"你也只能講鼓勵，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:26:53.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:26:54.773000+08:00","text":"不敢通報的狀況，你要怎麼處理？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:26:55.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:27:01.436000+08:00","text":"你覺得這個會不會是所謂的冰山一角，120案敢通報，其實下面還有一千多案不敢通報？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:27:01.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:27:03.677000+08:00","text":"本席還是認為有非常高的可能是這樣。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:27:03.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:27:22.946000+08:00","text":"所以除了這個平臺的處理機制之外，不能只有這個平臺，我們剛剛看到你的各項策進措施裡面，本席覺得比較有待加強或是有待討論的地方是如何辨識職場霸凌，如何讓大家從不敢通報變成比較敢講出自己的委屈，讓公部門文化有一個改變。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:27:22.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:27:43.942000+08:00","text":"本席提供你幾個建議，本席曾經在質詢考試院的時候也提過，辨別職場霸凌的情況，從領導國家機器的這個角度來看，第一，這些單位不管是中央政府的部會，還是地方政府的特殊單位，那個單位的離職率、調職率有沒有異常的狀況，你看看當初的勞發署是不是就是離職率非常異常？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:27:44.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:27:52.806000+08:00","text":"當然這是事後爆發悲劇之後，大家回頭去看才發現，但它山之石，既然有這樣的案例，是不是要做一個通盤檢討？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:27:52.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:28:13.635000+08:00","text":"第二，考績的部分是很重要的，我現在很擔心公部門之所以會有霸凌，大家敢怒不敢言或是有委屈往肚子裡吞，就是因為考績抓在長官手上，萬一有像謝宜容這種擅長向上經營的人，這個壓力是很大的，考績的部分要不要透明一點，有沒有一個改善的機制？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:28:14.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:28:22.400000+08:00","text":"第三個，是個別公務員的工作量、效率等等，這就比較細節了，但是這樣的精進措施，現在行政院有沒有討論？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:28:22.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:28:30.064000+08:00","text":"也就是在平臺主動通報沒有辦法觸及到或者是沒有辦法改善的文化部分、識別部分，你們有什麼加強措施？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:28:32.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:28:53.399000+08:00","text":"報告委員，事實上，你剛才提到比如離職率比較高的部分或怎麼樣，如果發生這樣的狀況，人總會讓所屬機關理解我們有注意到你們這邊的離職率是比較高，但是我跟委員報告，離職率比較高不一定就是跟霸凌有同等關係。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:28:53.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:28:53.999000+08:00","text":"當然，有可能是血汗嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:28:53.999000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T10:28:55.759000+08:00","text":"有可能是這樣……","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:28:55.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:28:56.379000+08:00","text":"這也值得關注啦！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:28:56.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:29:06.168000+08:00","text":"有可能是很多的員工被挖角，這個單位事實上它的員工非常優秀，所以到處被挖走了，也有這樣的狀況。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:29:07.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:29:07.990000+08:00","text":"這麼多的部會、這麼多的機關，我們剛剛講的是特殊狀況，你如果講過去有這個狀況，勞發署的狀況你們有發現嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:29:16.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:29:18.219000+08:00","text":"離職率非常高的狀況有發現嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:29:18.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:29:18.479000+08:00","text":"人總有發現嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:29:18.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:29:20.439000+08:00","text":"這個我要跟人總再確認一下。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:29:20.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:29:21.740000+08:00","text":"你要再確認一下，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:29:21.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:29:34.203000+08:00","text":"所以這個本來就應該要列入督導的對象，我就要問，行政機關除了讓他主動通報之外，你還要主動掌握，你現在主動掌握、澈底瞭解這樣狀況的時候是由誰來追蹤？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:29:34.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:29:38.104000+08:00","text":"是由哪一個比如政務委員或誰來做督導，你們現在有沒有討論這件事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:29:38.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:29:49.408000+08:00","text":"現在的追蹤機制就是人事總處，因為人事是一條鞭的，所以它等於是所有人事體系裡面的最頭。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:29:49.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:29:52.750000+08:00","text":"所以基本上現在就是由人事行政總處來督導，然後把這些東西做執行？對。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:29:53.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:30:05.215000+08:00","text":"你什麼時候可以提供一個……我想秘書長應該不會反對，調職率、離職率的特殊狀況是足以拿出來討論的，你們總有一些數據的蒐集，你覺得應不應該做一下掌握？","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:30:05.215000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T10:30:06.215000+08:00","text":"他們應該有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:30:05.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:30:06.576000+08:00","text":"應該要掌握，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:30:06.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:30:10.120000+08:00","text":"好，我給你一點時間，你什麼時候可以把這樣子的報告交出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:30:12.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:30:24.250000+08:00","text":"我姑且稱之為霸凌高風險或是職場相對不友善，這個名字怎麼取我沒有意見，但是這樣的機制要出來，由人事行政總處來做OK，你什麼時候可以提出一個初步的報告？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:30:24.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:30:33.838000+08:00","text":"可以，但是我跟委員報告，我們會附註說明，經過瞭解以後，離職率比較高與霸凌事實上還是不太一樣。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:30:33.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:30:35.019000+08:00","text":"你跟我講什麼時候有報告就好了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:30:38.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:30:42.342000+08:00","text":"現在是1月，是不是給我們一個月或兩個月的時間？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:30:42.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:30:49.105000+08:00","text":"好，我給你兩個月，這個事情我們長期追蹤，但是這兩個月你不只要把這個東西交代出來，也就是你的主動追查進度。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:30:49.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:30:56.888000+08:00","text":"第二個，平臺的後續相關處遇，你要怎麼跟社會大眾說明，也要一併把它詳述清楚，好不好？瞭解。","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:30:57.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:30:58.348000+08:00","text":"最後，主席，再給我30秒。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:31:00.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:31:09.295000+08:00","text":"我本來期待前幾天在財政委員會就要問你這件事，大家現在在講預算要刪28%，我們下午要審你們的預算，我們是要統統減列28%嗎？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:31:10.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:31:11.241000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，絕對沒有。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:31:11.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:31:26.974000+08:00","text":"因為我上次問你們的副秘書長，我問他這是不是行政院統一的命令，因為他們一直在發圖卡，我問他是不是要減列28%，他們又說不要、不要，我問他這是不是行政院的命令，副秘書長的回答還滿經典的，他說：應該不是，就我所知不是！","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:31:27.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:31:29.156000+08:00","text":"後來變成：就我所掌握的資料不是！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:31:29.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:31:33.540000+08:00","text":"他不是那個領頭，我不能為難他，但你是秘書長，到底是或不是？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:31:33.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:31:34.441000+08:00","text":"你們有沒有下這個令？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:31:35.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:31:36.282000+08:00","text":"沒有要重編。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:31:36.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:31:38.803000+08:00","text":"沒有要重編，也沒有要砍28%，對不對？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:31:38.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:31:39.063000+08:00","text":"沒有嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:31:39.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:31:41.164000+08:00","text":"沒有，明年的部分沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:31:41.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:31:45.706000+08:00","text":"明年的部分沒有，為什麼內政部又跑出來講要刪28%？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:31:48.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:31:54.191000+08:00","text":"因為在我們那個質詢結束之後，第二天內政部就上車了，現在造謠列車翻車了，又上車了怎麼辦？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:31:54.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:32:06.373000+08:00","text":"如果按照我在媒體上看到的，現在的財劃法會等到後面才送過來的話，我們可能明年的部分就按照現在來處理。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:32:06.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:32:15.215000+08:00","text":"你趕快對外做一個說明，那天答詢的時候，副秘書長給人家的結論是感覺各部會各搞各的、各行其是，行政院到底有沒有在領導啊？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:32:16.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:32:18.277000+08:00","text":"如果這是你下的令，那也就算了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:32:18.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:32:24.425000+08:00","text":"各部會只是說明財劃法長期以來可能會造成的影響，不是針對明年。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:32:24.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:32:27.590000+08:00","text":"萬一最後不是這樣的時候，不是變成造謠嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:32:27.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:32:28.631000+08:00","text":"政府機關帶頭造謠是不對的！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:32:30.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:32:33.457000+08:00","text":"秘書長，所以你趕快趁這個事還沒有塵埃落定之前做統一的澄清說明。","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:32:33.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:32:42.304000+08:00","text":"因為當初我們不清楚財劃法到底什麼時候會送到行政院，什麼時候會公布實施，那個時間點可能會有一些……","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:32:42.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:32:46.348000+08:00","text":"可是你很確定行政院沒有下這個令，明年的預算也沒有刪28%的問題，對不對？對。","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:32:46.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:32:49.090000+08:00","text":"你還是希望我們支持預算，對不對？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:32:49.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:32:53.554000+08:00","text":"那你趕快說明，不要再讓部會這邊上造謠列車了，好不好？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T10:32:53.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:32:54.695000+08:00","text":"這個監管的力道要稍微加強，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔秘書長明鑫","start":"2025-01-02T10:32:56.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:32:56.686000+08:00","text":"應該是指今年。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T10:32:56.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:32:57.487000+08:00","text":"應該是指114年，因為今天已經是114年，謝謝。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T10:32:57.987000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T10:33:06.844143+08:00","text":"跟委員會報告，黃捷委員詢答完之後，我們休息6分鐘，讓行政單位使用洗手間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T10:33:07.144143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T10:33:09.715571+08:00","text":"接下來請許宇甄委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}