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啊"},{"start":284.298,"end":306.425,"text":"發言要取消發言要取消"},{"start":314.409,"end":315.089,"text":"發言取消因為這樣他們會"},{"start":389.727,"end":395.602,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2370.827,"end":2385.339,"text":"好 謝謝大家 謝謝大家今天通知大家來開會 大家都比較忙碌本院的江副院長 周秘書長各黨團的黨團幹部 各部會的列席代表"},{"start":2386.701,"end":2395.227,"text":"各位辛苦的工作夥伴我們協商主題第一案本院國民黨黨團提案有關電價動漲的議題我們現在協商國民黨黨團的提案是為避免物價因為電價的調漲"},{"start":2408.817,"end":2417.106,"text":"明聲痛苦指數的飆升以此反對臺電公司調漲電價建請院會作成決議立即停止調漲電價"},{"start":2420,"end":2444.251,"text":"以及要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施以兼顧人民生計維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運本案經113年3月29日立法院第十一屆第一會期第七次院會決議交付黨團協商並由國民黨黨團負責召集協商"},{"start":2448.593,"end":2476.75,"text":"協商會議請各黨團指派代表參加令今113年4月24日由楊瓊英召委召集黨團協商會議中由於民進黨未派員出席主席做成決論本案保留 送請院長協商協商會議之前我想先請經濟部王部長說明好嗎謝謝"},{"start":2480.179,"end":2506.999,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員那電價的這個部分事實上我們現在目前是按照電業法49條那也因為這個考量到各項的這個俄烏戰爭之後的電價的成本那確實是高漲那各個國家事實上漲的幅度都遠遠高於臺灣漲的幅度"},{"start":2507.557,"end":2518.476,"text":"那臺電也因為這樣的一個國際原料的高漲所以原料的採購呢幾乎是六千億的這樣的一個金額跟惡霧戰爭前的"},{"start":2520.1,"end":2520.12,"text":"照顧"},{"start":2544.929,"end":2545.729,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2567.779,"end":2568.319,"text":"調到增加25%最大的用戶的部分"},{"start":2584.961,"end":2611.011,"text":"大概也是接近我們成本了只有這樣那其他的其實都還是遠低於臺電的這個相關的發電的成本那所以因此這個我們在即使這樣調漲之後呢仍舊需要行政院給我們相關的經費來補助讓臺電的虧損不要再持續的惡化跟擴大那以上我先就這個部分簡單做說明"},{"start":2612.947,"end":2631.045,"text":"謝謝王部長的說明接下來我介紹一下補充介紹一下我們今天到期的所有列席的官員我們王部長大家都已經聽到他的發言了接下來能源署的吳志偉吳副署長再來台電的董事長曾董事長文森歡迎列席現在我們請各黨團來發表意見國民黨團是協商代表請國民黨團先發言"},{"start":2639.554,"end":2663.929,"text":"好 感謝院長召集協商我想今天針對我們這個3月29號所提出來的這個案件不管是剛剛經濟部王美花部長所講或是之前我們在4月24號的時候我們已經有召開過協商其實都還是一樣的一個論點而剛剛透過這個直播我想大家都看到都聽到王美花部長的講法我這裡心裡只有一個結論好像王美花部長講的還是一樣"},{"start":2665.45,"end":2687.067,"text":"就是一句話總結又是要講說民進黨政府主政之下世界怎麼跟得上台灣把台灣講得好棒棒但是我們現在真的是這樣嗎錯誤的能源政策不檢討不調整不改變有什麼臉或是有什麼意思來對全民講說是什麼世界原物料調漲惡霧戰爭惡霧戰爭幾年了"},{"start":2690.782,"end":2708.055,"text":"我們看一下世界原油的趨勢或說世界的相關的原物料的話2021年來到最高點價格最高到現在2024年已經相對來講回到比2021年差不多已經回到這個之前的一個基準點了"},{"start":2709.389,"end":2728.764,"text":"所以說我們現在看到的一個狀況是原物料的價格其實已經比之前的高點來的趨緩很多而且看的趨勢是往下的那反而我們的電價是持續往上所以在推到世界的這種原物料的調漲然後又推到惡物戰爭我覺得這是不負責任的一個講法"},{"start":2730.421,"end":2751.855,"text":"回過頭來我們在這一次特別提到因為這個電價調漲會造成所有的物價的整個大幅調漲而不管是我們國內很多的這些經濟研究相關的機構都沒有算到今年2024年要電價再調漲也因此我們的通貨膨脹會有什麼樣的一個影響"},{"start":2753.456,"end":2774.912,"text":"所以我們才會特別提案認為說現在應該是要折成相關部會尤其在520這個新隔壞的就任前後現在的部長也沒有辦法為之後的政策再來做背書應該是要現行立即調漲現行人員政策並且來做相關的一個配套以及對策才能夠真真正正維護穩定的供電"},{"start":2777.29,"end":2793.358,"text":"最後我們還是再次強調自始至終從頭到尾我們都感謝臺電第一線的公務人員我們自己是選區出身我們非常理解臺電的基層人員非常辛苦刮風下雨打雷他們都是出動我們由衷感謝"},{"start":2794.338,"end":2821.468,"text":"但如果說錯誤能源政策不調整的話換一百個總經理都無濟於事所以不要再拿台電的總經理、台電的人員來當地線去轉換概念你們上位者的頭腦不換政治意識形態頭腦不換什麼都沒有用那我最後也必須要再說一下今天感謝院長召開協商否則的話我們的執政黨黨團"},{"start":2823.274,"end":2842.228,"text":"在過去我們4月24號上個禮拜三國民黨團召開協商枯坐半小時執政黨的民進黨團沒有派人出席4月26號禮拜五民眾黨團召開兩次朝野協商民進黨團沒有派人出席"},{"start":2842.998,"end":2865.009,"text":"我想如果說我們要求一個議事 要求一個立院的朝野和諧的話最基本的出席尊重這是必要的所以今天特別感謝院長也讓我們三個黨團能夠坐下來一起開會我想等一下的一個結論我們也希望民進黨團他們當初應該在4.24 4.26就可以表達意見了"},{"start":2865.529,"end":2881.796,"text":"沒有想到要在這個時候才能表達但是我們還是堅持我們的立場認為台電認為現在民進黨政府應該面對錯誤的能源政策先檢討再來跟全民做後續的一個政策謝謝謝謝國民黨團黃孟凱書記長的發言接下來我們請同時提案的民眾黨黃國昌總召發言請"},{"start":2891.761,"end":2906.617,"text":"謝謝院長 台灣聯盟黨團所提出來要求經濟部針對整體的能源政策、電價費率結構以及台電相關各項支出還有遵節的措施向本院經濟委員會提出全面檢討報告"},{"start":2908.738,"end":2934.947,"text":"經過審議通過以前電價全面還漲的這個議案當初在提案的時候我們黨團的張啟改委員已經在院會當中做了清楚的說明了那一天因為是民主進步黨黨團把他拉了要求要交付協商同時要求臺灣民眾黨的黨團來負責召集協商我們也按照院會"},{"start":2936.187,"end":2958.855,"text":"院長當中所做的才事我們也召集了協商不過很遺憾的我們發出了會議通知也召集了協商行政部門也非常感謝我們的經濟部政事曾文森跟相關台電的總經理都有來參與協商也做了口頭的說明因此"},{"start":2960.034,"end":2980.409,"text":"那次的協商包括了前半小時是第二案那後半小時是第三案那也見醒了院長那個時候所在主席台上面宣告要求臺灣民眾黨黨團召集協商這樣子的一個議事的程序那當然"},{"start":2985.072,"end":3000.35,"text":"早起協商的時候各個黨團之所以出席或不出席有他們各自的考慮這個我們都理解那只不過說那天因為協商沒有成立"},{"start":3001.929,"end":3024.518,"text":"那因此要做協商最後協商不成立的結論之前我們大概有稍微猶豫了一下那不過後來看到其他黨的黨團在做相同的提案的時候是建請院長再度召集協商那我在想說為了以後整個議事進行的順暢"},{"start":3028.699,"end":3053.592,"text":"避免沒有意義程序上的浪費跟時間的耗損所以我想利用這個機會等一下是不是也可以請院長麻煩或者是請秘書長稍微說明一下要說明的事情是什麼呢?因為我們現在立法院裡面"},{"start":3055.774,"end":3075.055,"text":"當黨團有要求交付草野協商的時候那我們就必須要進去草野協商草野協商有一個月所謂的冷凍期在這個冷凍期當中被要求要召集協商的黨團他必須要召集協商那我的問題是當這個程序進行完了以後"},{"start":3075.996,"end":3078.68,"text":"若無法達成協商結論,應沒有必要再請院長再召集一次協商"},{"start":3091.192,"end":3108.284,"text":"不是對院長有什麼不敬的意思不願意你來組織協商但我覺得這個程序總是把它理清楚一點比較好那未來才有助於整個議事能夠比較有效率的進展所以我想要確定的事情是說當"},{"start":3110.56,"end":3128.709,"text":"被要求負責召集協商的黨團那也依照我們的程序召集完協商沒有辦法獲知協商結論這個時候依照議事規則我的理解應該是沒有必要再麻煩院長"},{"start":3129.87,"end":3156.846,"text":"再召集一支協商就可以直接送院會依照議事程序來加以處理那如果等一下方便的話是不是也可以麻煩院長請秘書長跟各個黨團把這個基本的遊戲規則大家再清楚的確認一次謝謝謝謝黃國昌總召的發言等一下下一位是民進黨發言之前我請秘書長簡短扼要的說明一下 民進黨請"},{"start":3160.747,"end":3187.464,"text":"報告各位委員因為在職權刑事法第12章的黨團協商那黨團協商大概68條大概它是有分的三項三項裡面當然第一項裡面就是第一項跟第三項有關聯性第一項就是說在協商議案或解決爭議事項可以由院長或是各黨團向院長請求一個主動一個被動這裡請求協商"},{"start":3190.225,"end":3211.032,"text":"委員會 第三項 委員會 各委員在審查議案 如果在有爭議的時候 委員會的主席 也可以當時才是來協商那如果這一協商 以後送到院會來 就按照那個表裡面 如果不需要協商的 那當然就送院會 像今天的電子簽商網那樣的處理"},{"start":3212.612,"end":3214.473,"text":"議案自交黨團協商予逾一個月"},{"start":3234.093,"end":3235.574,"text":"謝謝周秘書長的說明接下來我們請民進黨黨團請說明"},{"start":3259.364,"end":3273.94,"text":"針對剛才黃國昌委員所談的 我想黃國昌也不是今天來當立委 都很清楚另外執行審查就剛才周秘書講得很清楚 不會搖桿 他已經講得很清楚了因為黨團協商的時候是黨團協商後事有這一事項 院長要來"},{"start":3279.898,"end":3308.789,"text":"要來主持另外有人拉下來協商也有委員會協商委員會協商當然這個大家知道這個案子也經過這樣的程序也走完了委員協商沒有結論就是交給院長這個再清楚不夠這是因為時間刑事法68條到71條大家看清楚就如此這個還有解釋更改空間除非你去修法就如此"},{"start":3314.023,"end":3322.311,"text":"我想程序上還是釐清一下 也替黃總召也再複習一下議事規則剛剛68條就講得很清楚 誠如祕書長跟柯總召講的 我想我不需要再贅述那今天我們坐在這個場域 就是由立法院院長 不論誰擔任院長 他就是任何的議案或是未解的爭議"},{"start":3334.304,"end":3361.989,"text":"那最終各黨團好好坐下來協商最重要的場域所以任何在院會如果要表決的議案最終都會在這個場域大家來做最後的對話希望能夠匯聚共識那我們來看看那國民黨跟民眾黨確實在上週有召開今天要表決的議案協商的議案的兩個案子第七案第八案的協商其實如果這個黃總召您看一下這個協商結論就寫得很清楚"},{"start":3362.589,"end":3379.481,"text":"國民黨黨團的這個電價條帳的這個案子在立法院朝野協商是4月24號禮拜三的12點到12點18分那協商結論就寫得很清楚本案保留請韓院長召集黨團協商所以這是當天的協商結論這就是為什麼我們今天要韓院長召集協商"},{"start":3384.354,"end":3407.128,"text":"民眾黨在4月26日禮拜五12點半到1點鐘民眾黨所召集的也是台電動漲電價的這個案子當天也是那天的協商結論就寫得非常清楚本案保留送請院長協商所以這是兩個黨團協商都很清楚的記錄這就是為什麼沒有辦法在黨團協商獲得共識的就在提請韓院長的協商"},{"start":3412.111,"end":3412.131,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":3435.135,"end":3448.684,"text":"柯建民、柯總週,二次發言我再要補充說明,我們6月開始的時候1993年1993年到1991年說國會無法通過,這經過6年的時間那時候我相信海運長那時候也在議法院,也就是說完成國會無法修正"},{"start":3456.969,"end":3481.852,"text":"那韓日國會委員法修正以前立法院的議事規則就照一種民間團體的開會規則所以很容易發生一個人可以擋住所有的案子所以1990年1月公告的時候國會委員法公告黨團協商立法院執行刑事法就是非常重要的那這個我現在說依法行事但是這個法有一個很重要的精神就是說尊重少數"},{"start":3483.053,"end":3500.631,"text":"換言之實際上現在五十五或三十五不管怎麼樣你的黨團協商一定因為要成立一個黨團要有三個人所以三個人你和八十九九十個一樣的權益所以立法院的議案都是要經過常委協商大家都簽名以後就沒事"},{"start":3501.744,"end":3512.549,"text":"所以才創設出來這個最有利於小組黨今天黃昌偉你不要以為你現在義務在國民黨上面你們加起來就過半這個你不再懷疑他"},{"start":3514.267,"end":3537.108,"text":"你這個是在把小黨的權力把它放棄掉啊否則的話你小黨永遠三個五個就表決永遠輸嘛過去我們草野黨乃至於我們只要二七個的時候一個招也沒有我們也是用草野槍來解決很多紛爭啊這個是御法院一個最民主程序而且依法行事"},{"start":3538.174,"end":3560.846,"text":"我想市長身為一個法律博士然後不遵守法律然後在這裡自己也進行這麼久了同時你也要求要來增加這個程序市長今天是單純一個結議案法律案的時候法律案有時候八九十條整個大法修正那你沒有寫成你這個法總處理沒條來表決沒條來發言嗎"},{"start":3564.943,"end":3585.699,"text":"而且現在大家所對爭執的就是執行刑罰,就是我講的執行刑罰你要把執行刑罰裡面要做一些並跟文案刑處包括請總統、包括國務、國情報告等等那兩次國務就等等這些都是要在憲法法律上來進行的"},{"start":3588.669,"end":3609.92,"text":"直接刑事法你以後有意見你舉說我們小黨這個自由利益武器不要了你以後都會依附在某一個大黨上面讓他過判這是你的民主原則嗎?我想這是很諷刺的嘛我知不知道法律案整了這麼多的時候要怎麼表決你直接刑事法我們常常強要修正的"},{"start":3611.229,"end":3629.572,"text":"每一條都上來發言 團委商有結論 沒有結論就大家先領就表決表決還要談幾個人發言 發言順序 幾張顧問章這樣才有 立法院才走得下去阿你用從雲法則回應 回應到執行新聞法廢掉然後你能夠廢 我也沒人信阿"},{"start":3631.857,"end":3658.989,"text":"謝謝柯建民總統二次發言接下來還有沒有其他黨團要發言沒有我們現在主席我嘗試性的來做一個結論就較於各位黨團看看大家的意見現在協商各黨團沒有辦法達成共識所以本案這個院會進行是還沒有我們現在先討論程序那發言部分等一下廣泛討論時由"},{"start":3662.551,"end":3667.734,"text":"黃文峰手機程序問題完全不存在違法主要現在各黨團請發言副總召你還沒發言"},{"start":3693.174,"end":3720.42,"text":"那個院長今天謝謝你來解決院內的紛爭那既然這個在野黨都提出一樣的提案那執政黨表示他有意見所以今天也請求院長協商那是不是執政黨把他們為什麼要反對動漲電價請他們講清楚嘛請他們講清楚嘛好不好"},{"start":3721.934,"end":3722.536,"text":"來吳思友幹事長請發言"},{"start":3726.431,"end":3754.06,"text":"好 完成了程序問題的釐清我們就進入這個案子的實質的討論電價是專業 能源政策是專業那切莫是政治來操作這個開宗明義先請大家要能夠回歸公正專業的這個電價審議的程序那在過去2015年 立法院做成的決議要求台電如果要做任何電價的調漲或調降"},{"start":3756.341,"end":3757.262,"text":"立法院黨協商．事由．議案協商．事由．議案協商．"},{"start":3776.075,"end":3788.446,"text":"：立法院黨團協商．事由：立法院黨團協商．事由．立法院黨團協商．事由．立法院黨團協商．事由．立法院黨團協商．事由．立法院黨團協商．事由．立法院黨團協商．事由．立法院黨團協商．"},{"start":3804.179,"end":3810.303,"text":"所以現在電業法的法律授權規範非常清楚臺電的調漲調降任何的電價要經過公式的計算審議委員會的審議然後"},{"start":3818.451,"end":3838.49,"text":"這就是一個合法的程序那現在呢在野黨的提案就是推翻了立法院自己在2017年修的電業法我們不能夠我們是立法委員自己立的法國家的法治要遵守如果今天要用院會的決議的方式"},{"start":3839.411,"end":3839.711,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3858.346,"end":3870.592,"text":"立委提案就可以推翻這是萬萬不可的第二個回到實質我們經過很多次的討論也再一次的予以澄清整個電價的調漲是國際的客觀環境"},{"start":3873.874,"end":3874.014,"text":"國際燃料的調生﹐"},{"start":3893.91,"end":3904.983,"text":"繼續說下去,我也不知道好不好所以我今天推而求其次國際都在面對這一番辛苦的燃料的調漲各國都反映在國內的電價的調漲臺灣的條幅相對是穩健的"},{"start":3909.088,"end":3935.626,"text":"而且呢就這個臺大風險中心2023年做了一個民調臺灣的人民是非常的理性看待臺電的永續經營跟國際節能減碳的趨勢就這個民調裡頭有八成的民眾他們也認為只要是符合節能減碳只要是經過合理的試算八成的民眾願意支付合理的電價來減少"},{"start":3938.588,"end":3964.721,"text":"人類對於未來氣候災害的損失而這樣一個民調21歲到30歲的青年支持合理調漲電價的意願是最高的所以新興的世代他們都非常理性的看待臺灣的電價合理化臺灣需要進行電價收費的結構性的改革讓用電大戶承擔更大的付費"},{"start":3965.721,"end":3993.213,"text":"而不是一再用國家的預算來撥補用納稅錢來去補貼這些高污染高耗能的產業用電這是大開改革的倒車啦所以這些就論理上我很努力民進黨團很努力的在國際的大環境的因應調控我們很努力的在法制作業的健全面我們也很努力的在民意的反應我們也很努力的在"},{"start":3994.573,"end":4011.366,"text":"對於這個國際未來節能減碳的時代使命我們都不厭其煩的再三論述所以再一次懇求請求不要用政治來凌駕了法治不要用政治來凌駕了專業的用點"},{"start":4017.151,"end":4037.96,"text":"我再一次說我也希望這樣的聲音透過直播讓更多的公民朋友能夠來予以支持正確的政策 謝謝好 謝謝吳世堯幹事長再次發言我先處理一下針對七八兩 對不起針對七八兩案各黨團既無共識我們就急交院會處理"},{"start":4040.289,"end":4046.515,"text":"約會處理可否比照下列進行的方式發言部分我們廣泛討論時由臺灣民眾黨推派一人民進黨推派兩人國民黨推派兩人輪流交叉發言順序授權議事處理每人發言時間三分鐘"},{"start":4061.058,"end":4084.128,"text":"第二,發言完畢,依各黨團所送修正動議先後順序,進行各黨團版本之處理。我們只處理修正動議,就不再處理再修正動議。請問各黨團對主席宣告的方式可否接受?你現在馬上要處理了?不要再討論?切開?因為差不多了"},{"start":4088.11,"end":4112.12,"text":"因為吳世耀擔任長講的也很清楚實質部分沒有共識沒有關係院長等一下好既然有舉手發言完畢以後要怎麼處理我沒有意見曹雷霄沒有所謂的一輪二輪的曹雷霄可以講到一整天也沒有關係但是我們知道這個大概"},{"start":4113.82,"end":4128.584,"text":"竟未分明,但是大家都說有新政了,讓我們把話講完,這是民主程序竟然洪森有舉手我建議這樣,因為上一次我們才寫上次,我們已經講得很清楚是"},{"start":4136.086,"end":4143.268,"text":"黨團三長所以我也很為難所以我剛才出去嘛,我也是三個你現在是四位啊?他是下一案,他是下一案我不是不尊敬,我也不是不尊敬"},{"start":4154.412,"end":4181.07,"text":"都不行了啦因為我覺得你們的三長到底是誰嘛你們自己要求 你們黨團三長到底是誰嘛我問你就回答等一下我問你 我可以回答我本來說 那我們維持三個嘛那我就出去嘛那假如你這個有意見你這個有意見 我們可以 他可以出去他不發言 沒有問題沒有問題這樣可以吧這裡是去搞亂子嘛"},{"start":4182.929,"end":4187.436,"text":"好,這沒問題,但是韓議長,沒有啦,我們要出去,我們出去啦"},{"start":4194.488,"end":4223.007,"text":"我本來是維持三個嘛然後你叫這個不要三長啦 什麼叫維持三個你聽我講 因為我剛才叫你先協商我本來就是三長啦好 沒有問題喔 兩個字喔 好不好我以後 那以後喔那是你要求的耶你上次一直在這裡講一定要三長 通通都是民進黨講的上次反應團講出來的你說民眾黨不能帶人進來 對三長才能進來 是不是你講的所以我剛才出現 我剛才協商他說好啊是這樣的嘛 好 我們"},{"start":4224.318,"end":4226.101,"text":"就算人身上,以後黨要公安行政"},{"start":4230.08,"end":4258.739,"text":"對不起我補充一下因為我們第一次朝野協商就建立一個共識好沒有問題是黨團三長來列席參與討論因為那一次你還記得陳昭之進來陳委員進來後來你就質疑陳委員的代表什麼身份所以我為什麼不讓紅委員發言並不是說不尊重他是因為我們好不容易建立這個慣例如果各黨團都沒有意見的話我們再一次重申以後我們朝野協商就是黨團三長萬一三長有事情對不起"},{"start":4259.912,"end":4278.346,"text":"本席不接受任何人代理我們先確定這樣子就定下來那我可以會議詢問一下嗎因為過去有很多的法案或預算案那當然是委員會中心主義嘛召委必須來這裡啊所以這個要怎麼處理呢是在三個緣合裡面我們來調派嗎還是只規範三長因為這個齁我跟議長報告這個不是人數"},{"start":4285.231,"end":4306.33,"text":"也不是黨團的代表性我們坐在這裡都希望是最了解該議案的委員可以來發言這會有助於我們協商討論的品質跟效率那基於委員會中心主義任何的法案它必須有召委至少是召委或是該委員會對於推動該法案最熱忱的那位委員來列席"},{"start":4306.87,"end":4320.722,"text":"所以如果都只是限於三長,那這樣子我覺得不是委員會中心主義的實踐,也不是委員會自身制的實踐喔這對於國會的運作是有漢格的好不好,主席秘書長說明一下各位委員,要這樣說明啦"},{"start":4330.793,"end":4341.719,"text":"委員會的黨團當時因為在第一次會有這樣的一個規範所以變成黨團三長剛才吳委員所提的如果委員會在協商當時的設計當時那個圖表的設計很簡單就是第七十條的規範"},{"start":4347.842,"end":4377.191,"text":"那是因為大概一定是這一個法案是到底在院會的哪一個這一個說明的那一個黨團負責召集協商那協商的時候一定是按照70條規定通知各黨團書面簽名指派兩人參加這兩人當中一個一定是審查會的委員一定有審查會的一個是大概黨團的代表"},{"start":4377.95,"end":4401.409,"text":"但另外一個狀況有可能因為這一次大概很好每一個委員會大概各黨團都有人以前可能就只有以上一屆來講是沒有的所以沒有的話可能這個黨團在這個委員會根本沒有人那這兩個人就不受這個限制這在第七四條寫得很清楚當時我在設計那個圖表裡面約會跟委員會接軌所設計的一個圖表是這樣的設計"},{"start":4406.733,"end":4408.536,"text":"委員會在實務上怎麼做我不太理解法條規定是這樣的"},{"start":4422.791,"end":4428.717,"text":"市長,您剛講的可以由該委員或審查委員或的委員是在委員會的黨團協商的那個level嗎?"},{"start":4439.508,"end":4460.874,"text":"我這個要提出這個嚴重的挑戰跟討論我雖然擔任立委比較之前現在是第九年第三任但我過去推動的法案或是重要的預算我沒有常常來但是我也會來這樣一個院長交集的委員會數次或數十次前提是我負責的委員會的議案"},{"start":4462.294,"end":4488.154,"text":"我主推的法案或是我擔任召委的時候我再次強調吳思瑤過去九年坐在這裡的時間不是人頭我坐在這裡是有功能的我最了解的法案或是我最了解的預算我必須在這裡做攻防做說明有助於討論的品質跟效率這是負責任的國會監督所以過去九年"},{"start":4489.594,"end":4513.152,"text":"我三任立委 從蘇嘉晨院長到游錫堃院長 坐在這裡的場域我說的這裡的場域 就是院長召集的朝野協商我過去不是三長 因為我是第一次擔任三長 所以我過去可以被允許坐在這裡對於我清楚掌握的法案 我推動的預算 我必須在這裡說明"},{"start":4514.933,"end":4531.581,"text":"那為什麼現在就推翻了那是推翻了過去幾任的我相信在王金平院長的時候那時候我是行政院的秘書我也都會陪來這裡協商所以不是只有三長可以坐在這裡不要做這個過當的宣示"},{"start":4532.967,"end":4552.658,"text":"不是人頭一二三不是比力量比表決不是我們是要推派什麼樣子的代表在這裡有利於議案的效能跟品質的討論所以大家反而應當是好人數要約制可以比如說三長再加一加二是該委員會的召委或什麼大家可以講好"},{"start":4554.018,"end":4570.823,"text":"絕對沒有剝奪了非三長的委員參與朝野協商的權利我從以前年輕二十幾歲擔任國會助理到行政院的秘書到我成為立委的九年從來沒有發生這樣的事情不能過當的做這樣的解釋"},{"start":4572.023,"end":4587.329,"text":"院長我要請求 坐在這裡的人 不是求表現 不是作秀 不是比人頭 不是比舉手他是比他對於這個專業議案的瞭解 他能夠協助協商的效能跟品質 這才是有助於未來您主持的協商"},{"start":4588.609,"end":4611.988,"text":"時間!時間!時間!時間!"},{"start":4612.208,"end":4613.87,"text":"我還在發言所以我希望遊戲規則是這樣那回歸一下過去"},{"start":4630.39,"end":4649.148,"text":"任何的討論都有意義 任何的議案的討論都有需要 這不是浪費人民的時間這絕對不是 除非只是作秀 除非只是做小朋友同課的人 才是浪費時間在立法院開議時間 不在立法院開議去中國 在王滬寧面前"},{"start":4650.089,"end":4677.797,"text":"坑都不敢坑醫生的人在這裡好那我們是要遊戲規則這樣子院長我再一次請求上一次確實柯總召有提出說就是三位代表三長優先那個時候討論協商的主題是什麼那時候討論協商的主題是程序性的開議的日期專案的報告是什麼那個不涉及議案的實質所以在那一類的協商是由三長代表沒有問題可是對於議案的協商"},{"start":4678.897,"end":4681.378,"text":"各位委員各位去看69條68 6970大概裡面都有規範的"},{"start":4701.485,"end":4703.125,"text":"立法院黨團協商．事由．議案協商．事由．議案協商．事由．議案協商．事由．議案協商．"},{"start":4727.91,"end":4750.845,"text":"所以變成從那個以後大概幾乎現在的所有在黨團協商一定是山長坐在這邊在協商那各位也可以看到69條69條寫得很清楚那我也不要再練這個條文那各位可能就可以參佐去看那大概是我整個這樣做報告那69條很清楚啦69條裡面我幫你解釋69條好沒關係"},{"start":4757.509,"end":4773.889,"text":"第69條寫很清楚：黨團協商會議由院長、副院長及各黨團負責人或黨兵出席參加並由院長主持 院長因故不能主持時由副院長主持這是第一項 很清楚的 請在這邊各位可以去參考 以上"},{"start":4774.827,"end":4802.652,"text":"那我再堅持一遍因為我們第一次朝野協商就界定得非常清楚為了怕整個我們在朝野協商各方面變得不對稱或者太分雜所以我們就訂下黨團三長可以參與黨團三長萬一有請假其他的列席的黨團幹部一樣有代表性我想我們今天再重申一遍這個沒有對哪個黨團公平或不公平通通都沒有我們就建立一個慣例所以"},{"start":4803.345,"end":4822.579,"text":"可不可以請教其他代表嗎你現在的意思都不行我們現在確定你就是黨團三長你剛剛講的是這樣的意思我的意思是說就是黨團三長我們恢復到第一次因為我們運行得非常好我們就黨團三長列席我想我再問一遍國民黨團有沒有意見黨團三長列席民眾黨團有沒有意見"},{"start":4832.729,"end":4857.451,"text":"民進黨團也沒有意見沒有意見那以後我們就定下來除了黨團上練習發言其他委員敬請就不要參與了好確定了那在接下來我剛才所念的協商各黨團沒有辦法達成共識的時候等一下我們第七案第八案是不是做剛才我所陳述的這樣的方式來處理好那我們就定下來"},{"start":4860.19,"end":4868.133,"text":"我再說一遍好不好等一下你怎麼才說沒問題但是我們把話講清楚就好了因為我在這裡30年當黨兵23年我參加過至少700場以上的壞事都講得很清楚"},{"start":4875.836,"end":4889.659,"text":"國務院院長在組織協商的時候有不同風格那有的會合協為主比如說那時候前瞻紀錄電視預算的時候來這裡草原協商那時候蘇家瓊院長從頭到尾都會說委員會在審查的時候國務黨破壞那整個國務院會沒有辦法進行都直接到院會去"},{"start":4900.191,"end":4918.405,"text":"所以他還自己要求,他在這個地方,要有特定的時間,兩天前去海域,讓民進黨的人來,然後做執行,把各位找來做執行他把草野鄉當作委會執行"},{"start":4919.665,"end":4930.93,"text":"當初我們是非常有意見但為何協議竟然院長這樣我們算了能夠大家能夠溝通其實那也不是溝通他就在做表演舞台這個黃國昌也應該還記得你這份歷史吧"},{"start":4935.712,"end":4954.025,"text":"所以曹偉強有人這種樣態那今天我要講的就是說曹偉院長我非常尊重你但是不要急著裁決反正你今天很需要表情每一個心理我很清楚當然很難達到共識嘛當然達到共識以前你要讓他盡情的發言不是發言一輪以後就結束"},{"start":4955.526,"end":4967.032,"text":"我引述過去王院長在所兩次議 蘇院長王院長在所最有名的案子就是實名安全管理法朝委選上二十次還是在談要把道理講清楚嗎"},{"start":4968.072,"end":4973.016,"text":"那刑法控告沒收的時候﹖事由．議案協商．議案協商．議案協商．議案協商．議案協商．議案協商．議案"},{"start":4991.912,"end":5016.645,"text":"那是現在副委員會所期待的那這乃至於上禮拜五我們都很清楚上禮拜五所有的執行循序法民黨案子全部被封殺在委會封殺甚至封殺委會委員會沒收黃國昌也是共犯結果嘛你都舉手站在那邊嘛你去黃國昌看一下你現在一路黃民黨也會過半所以你要改變一切"},{"start":5017.825,"end":5018.706,"text":"主席主席主席你要制裁這個人"},{"start":5034.762,"end":5056.674,"text":"你要把它稍微大義所以人家想說他現在怎麼做,他怎麼去控制你院長之院長的合意,他今天甚至主張不適用來表決,這樣也可以存在所以這要講清楚,大家要把道理講清楚,要後勤以後要怎麼後勤我都沒有意見但是呢"},{"start":5058.089,"end":5066.642,"text":"要一致那學長要把話講出去我一直罰案罰案不講理 罰案單 罰案的時候 坦白有過一次罰案是來一二十個 我們都忍受"},{"start":5067.915,"end":5095.336,"text":"一段審查 國民黨來一段審查 我一人在 也是這樣都連受拉北時期的時候 超級海大 整一缸子國民黨都來在野黨都來 但是我們都很受啊 院長所以 所以 院長你只要維持一個 根本是你在做的不是分期給 直接就叫你怎麼做了 過程就給你排棄了所以 你要 你自己的分寸 你的誠信要維持著"},{"start":5101.174,"end":5119.745,"text":"講好幾年講不行的話,你可以裁釋或怎麼回聲,照講一下不要裁釋下去,超出國企好像不好,有生理的跌倒成分,我就這樣表示謝謝柯總召,接下來請吳世豪跟蔣麗玲多次歡迎,請稍待一下"},{"start":5121.277,"end":5143.458,"text":"那我剛才柯總召講了兩個重點一個A一個B就是A我們將來建立一個慣例我想我們好不容易建立這個慣例朝野協商就是黨團三長這個不要再變了第二個如果各位針對七案八案沒有實質的發言就請不要再發言了就請不要發言因為不管是情緒性或者意脫離我們七八案本案的"},{"start":5144.732,"end":5167.677,"text":"我想我們暫時不要再講這樣我們今天就準備送院會處理等一下最好委員有意見請大家聽一下我們發言只有十分鐘沒有前瞬性等一下你說我已經有說短了不要以為有衝浪線大家注意聽曹海祥過去大家都在這裡走過那還是"},{"start":5168.877,"end":5196.554,"text":"委員會的召委他負責處理法案那審查委員會召委是 召委不知道是誰啦齁 召委 僅頭兩個嘛齁 那個法案 那組織那個法案的召委齁應該可以來列席 因為他將來在議會做報告也是他這個部分 因為新法有漏列 但是大家講清楚因為他將來要到議會去做報告的人嘛 他不知道你們想怎麼樣嘛"},{"start":5197.815,"end":5199.156,"text":"委員會需要協商﹖那個主席一定是這一個人"},{"start":5225.083,"end":5244.573,"text":"所以他一定不會有問題存在 因為今天是一個人我知道 那你院會召集的這個 因為我們沒有把他納進來在這裡面因為他不是在 各委員會有八個委員會的 我們沒有列在這邊"},{"start":5245.441,"end":5265.547,"text":"那因為有委員會的專業幕僚 比如舉個例來講今天是經濟委員會 他的專門委員一定會在列在這邊在委員會在處理的過程 幕僚一定會提供給這一個主席所以在院會送到院長協商 一定是這樣的處理方式"},{"start":5266.227,"end":5276.541,"text":"所以那個專業人員一定是由委員會的專門委員在處理所以那一個主席就沒有到這邊來我今天真的跟你談一句大家這個地方前面走過過去潮流潮濕的情況"},{"start":5283.47,"end":5309.237,"text":"你又可以把查為商當委員執行,黃國昌自己執行因為出差了,大家亂來亂去這個時候有一點表現不太對,大家很認真在談事情我們任何事情都能夠,因為要遇事何且法案能夠順利進行所以過去我講清楚,今天以後要怎麼樣我都放心,沒有問題"},{"start":5310.457,"end":5333.695,"text":"包括坐在後面的助理 要不要指定多少人只要我是中方會議委員講說 那我就坐在後面就好了 我在旁邊我不發言總可以吧你這個要大家講清楚喔那中方會議不能發言阿 助理都可以在那 我為什麼不能做安排我召委 召委我申請這個法案我主持的"},{"start":5335.432,"end":5351.497,"text":"委員會有朝夕協商我正在聽你們大概講什麼將來再要跟他做報告他也知道他稍微掌控整個法案的審查所以今天你法案呢坦白講我不喜歡一直講這個我參加過七百場當然是各個"},{"start":5353.201,"end":5379.101,"text":"因為院長風格就是 大家說得好 說得順就好 大家說得好說得好 沒辦法就不要管這是一個民主程序嘛 幾乎是把委員會都沒收了前面那一排的人在上上禮拜10月15號 17號是把我們提案在委員會都沒收 不讓你審了幾乎上禮拜五也是 因為沒收啊所以今天副院長的揚謀我很清楚啊"},{"start":5380.066,"end":5397.922,"text":"因為我們今天已經我們大家都在上禮拜都發文給你那我也告訴你說各黨團都發文給你要來主持朝夕協商但是你都沒有處理就今天才要處理也沒有關係那黑人起義來的時候說沒有沒有什麼朝夕協商就直接表決"},{"start":5399.298,"end":5425.525,"text":"它現在暫時是國會多數但是呢這個已經違法本來就是有院長主席曹雷霄檢議嘛好 允許曹雷霄越檢決沒有問題但是呢請注意一個民主程序以後這個是一個檢議案以後法案是非常複雜法案哪一條和哪一條有相連其他法案有沒有判格這要談得很清楚所以法案的談判不是這麼簡單的事情"},{"start":5427.405,"end":5455.864,"text":"那叫封禁的意思是說委員我卸責我職業新法出了委會以後然後民進黨所有的版本全部給封殺因為不應該出來進入惡徒那是第五反案三十年期發現的然後到五月十七號也不要操著槍直接表決表決民進黨發言就清楚發言就如此蓋還走下去嗎這是封禁的陽謀嘛這國會可以不能如此嗎所以今天我要講清楚很多話"},{"start":5462.867,"end":5483.775,"text":"我先講實質的部分為了要讓農漁民可以安心生產教育機構能夠專心培養學子社福工作者能夠穩定的提供關懷的服務所以這一次即使電價調漲那行政部門在顧弱勢顧公益的部分呢針對農漁業學校社福團體是全面的電價動漲"},{"start":5485.255,"end":5496.742,"text":"這就是兼顧了民生第一跟弱勢優先讓他們不會在這一次的電價調漲裡頭受到波及那我手上也有一份是由29個民間組織有49個學者專家所提出的一個聯署聲明"},{"start":5502.185,"end":5509.129,"text":"他們都呼籲立法院由國民黨：立法院黨團總召副坤祺提案來修正定業法49條將電價調漲交由立法院審議那這樣的話會讓電價淪為政治操作讓政黨的惡鬥"},{"start":5517.173,"end":5544.398,"text":"取代應符合公正與專業性的電價審議機制徒利企業並讓全民買單這是嚴重違反了使用者跟污染者付費來促進淨零的全球趨勢這都是我要在這裡藉由協商時間在表達人民的聲音民間的聲音那我要回到一個重點我跟主席說我雖然之前我坐在這裡立法院佔了我二分之一的生命時間在這裡"},{"start":5546.518,"end":5566.657,"text":"我們今天每一次的院會開會時間是早上九點到晚上的六點鐘必要時可以再延長開會我不希望也不樂見在任何討論議案的過程有人動輒以時間到了快點講要不就是浪費全民的時間錯在我們的上班時間好好開會好好協商好好討論議案這是國會議員的職責"},{"start":5570,"end":5570.32,"text":"民主的原則是什麼?"},{"start":5586.315,"end":5608.264,"text":"我們都是學政治學出身的民主的原則就是溝通、討論沒有辦法獲制共識再予以表決所以在溝通跟討論的過程是不能快轉、不能跳過的我們現在的立法院在民主值的立法院其實創下了很多的惡例我不好意思這樣講"},{"start":5609.898,"end":5627.34,"text":"我們的程序委員會八年不檔案現在國民黨多數藍白聯手程序委員會檔案了一個病人要開醫生連掛號的資格都不給一個球員要參加比賽你給他報名的資格都剝奪就是現在的立法院"},{"start":5627.961,"end":5631.644,"text":"委員會審查的權利委員會中心主義委員會資深制都是要讓委員會相關的議案充分討論為人民發聲讓專業說話但是在委員會實踐的時候也沒收了討論的權限現在進入協商也是坐在這裡我看我對面的幾位"},{"start":5656.909,"end":5682.241,"text":"同仁們 恐怕都好想趕快下班或是好像開完會不要再講了 不要再講了這也是在形同閹割我們在協商的時候進行任何議案表決前最後的論理最後的政策辯論的機會我們都是國會議員我再一次說民主的原則是什麼溝通 討論 最後表決是最終的手段"},{"start":5683.061,"end":5697.739,"text":"可是在韓國瑜院長主持的立法院才上路三個月我們閹割了溝通、沒收了討論動輒萬事都表決就行這是民主嗎?"},{"start":5699.249,"end":5718.679,"text":"好,民主是多數決定但是民主另外一個原則多數也要尊重少數福爾泰的名言大家都聽過我縱使不同意你的觀點但我誓死捍衛你說話的權利我們在台灣最高的民主殿堂"},{"start":5720.08,"end":5745.698,"text":"我作為一個國會議員：這個會期作為黨編我多少次試圖的要努力說話為人民說話為政策討論我的權利都被你們無情的沒收了這不是人民期待的國會更何況這個會期我們在討論國會改革台灣的國會不能香港化台灣的國會不能沒收我們討論的機制請尊重我的發言"},{"start":5746.727,"end":5775.623,"text":"所以不要急著下班好嗎副總召我們開會的時間到晚上六點不要急著不要指著手錶不要急著下班的時間好嗎我們坐在這裡好好討論請尊重我發言的時間所以我再一次只差沒有跪求韓院長了立法院不能創下更多的惡力不要逼著人民上街頭台灣不能成為香港台灣的國會民主被沒收"},{"start":5777.439,"end":5789.518,"text":"最重的話就是這樣請大家要自制好嗎?開會的時間是到晚上六點在急什麼?急著下班嗎?急著去跟習近平摩西摩西嗎?"},{"start":5791.302,"end":5814.5,"text":"請尊重開會的紀律委員在開會為什麼有人可以拍桌委員的權利互相尊重韓院長您主持的院長您獲得人民的聲望也相對的高您領導的立法院要是什麼樣的立法院是民主被沒收的立法院嗎萬萬不可啊"},{"start":5815.179,"end":5816.561,"text":"感謝院長我想如果說真的要開會那上禮拜草野協商黨團召開就不要不來"},{"start":5833.314,"end":5850.824,"text":"上禮拜召開黨團協商不來然後現在跟我們講要開會是看到院長在看到媒體在拍看到現在直播所以說就興奮討論看到很多人討論所以說就一直講欲罷不能戲金上升言很大沒有必要"},{"start":5851.738,"end":5868.884,"text":"每一個人都是一百一十三十年其中之一每一個人都是中央民意代表每一個人都代表民意沒有像悲觀悲大沒有像人比較大所以一樣講民主講溝通講討論過去八年民進黨怎麼輾壓民進黨怎麼一黨獨大民進黨怎麼蠻漢民進黨怎麼不講理為什麼不講過去八年所作所為"},{"start":5874.773,"end":5893.038,"text":"院長我很快一分鐘其實剛剛柯總召明明就很了解但故意要模糊今天的焦點一般提案討論當然是三長代表因為可以代表黨團來做協商沒有問題但如果說有法律提案或者是說有相關我們要立專法新創法"},{"start":5895.785,"end":5914.779,"text":"院長在召開草野協商的時候也會有開會通知開會通知的時候可以授權幕僚單位能夠邀請相關人士共同與會所以這明明白白過去現在就可以處理的作業不用說故意照現在拿特例當通例來混淆焦點"},{"start":5915.6,"end":5916.38,"text":"好,謝謝各位,我現在"},{"start":5944.87,"end":5970.333,"text":"副總召集會議請我覺得院長現在開已經三個月了那為什麼一個最基本的我們朝野協商的制度的建立有這麼困難為什麼在立法院委員會的職群要有會議主席確認每一次開會時候"},{"start":5972.253,"end":5998.252,"text":"八個委員會他的質詢時間是幾分鐘會議一開始就有公告大家要按照這個規則時間到的時候有按鈴你的發言應該截止在運會的質詢也有明確的規範30分鐘還是15分鐘時間到了你的時間就結束就消音了但是反而"},{"start":5999.031,"end":6022.097,"text":"最基本的委員會 院會質詢都是按照這個方式來進行但是竟然代表黨團的負責人來到院長這裡協商連一個基本的制度都沒有而且我們不斷地在這裡聽到魔音穿腦不斷地一直在repeat repeat不斷地跳針"},{"start":6023.633,"end":6049.479,"text":"還有人把這裡當養老院不再講30年前20年前10年前我們從2月1號聽到現在一直在講養老院的回憶錄立法院永遠沒有辦法往前邁進嗎永遠不能往前邁進嗎院長你的制度制度必須制度必須要建立"},{"start":6055.655,"end":6078.509,"text":"到底是幾分鐘這要清楚第二我們院長召集的協商在第一次的時候民進黨柯總召赫赤民眾黨也赫赤主席不能進來的人為什麼可以進來今天立法院不是民進黨開的"},{"start":6080.475,"end":6104.307,"text":"今天法院是民進黨開的連這個買票 台南市議會買票但是呢在這裡可以滿口胡說八道 浪費全民的時間所以院長 我覺得今天就要您 我希望因為他們講話都十分鐘八分鐘我才講一分多鐘"},{"start":6106.601,"end":6134.383,"text":"不能厭擱國民黨發言時間我們再次的表達議長我們要照制度走制度是什麼你願意建立制度我們全力支持你不能任由他們每次這樣開會在這裡不斷的咆哮跳針人聲攻擊不斷的一直重複一直重複而我們該談的事情到底怎麼樣剛剛講得很清楚嘛在這裡呼天搶地鬼哭神號說"},{"start":6136.772,"end":6142.435,"text":"院長要給他們講話的時間4月24號、4月26號兩次為了電價的召集協商民進黨全部缺席然後到這裡呼天搶地誰應該有他的發言權"},{"start":6160.359,"end":6164.663,"text":"民進黨採用這種傲慢的態度我們接下來會要求我們來查詢4月24號4月26號為什麼誰可以缺席誰是薪水的小偷偷了全民的錢"},{"start":6184.343,"end":6190.084,"text":"有問題,你不要以為臺北六八聯盟,你根本搞不清楚狀況,毫無法律才能嘗試接受人政公局院長不是在你指揮科技局下行事的吧?"},{"start":7001.614,"end":7017.591,"text":"再次感謝大家,謝謝我想第七案、第八案顯然沒有辦法大家都達成共識我們現在先進入第九案因為我們環境部的省次長列席了請省次長來說明好嗎?謝謝"},{"start":7024.449,"end":7051.238,"text":"院長副院長還有各位黨團的總召幹部大家好那我想這一題那個經濟部他為了處理這個各工業區的這個污水處理廠的污泥那透過這樣的一個合約的一個進行來處理那確實有這個一個需要那以所在地彰化縣來看"},{"start":7053.151,"end":7053.171,"text":"委員長"},{"start":7083.849,"end":7102.915,"text":"張化縣的失業廢棄物的處理是可以紓解他的壓力對全國的廢棄物的處理也是有這樣的一個幫助不過我們要說明的是這個案子是在111年的時候已經通過了環境影響評估他有他的程序"},{"start":7104.226,"end":7104.246,"text":"謝謝委員長"},{"start":7129.344,"end":7142.933,"text":"關於這個提案我們在當初院會的時候已經由我們的未還委員會的委員陳昭之委員跟院會做了清楚的說明因為這件事情"},{"start":7144.98,"end":7166.991,"text":"姑且不論在彰化當地在鹿港當地有非常多的環保團體跟當地的民眾站出來抗議那更重要的事情是在去年的時候總統府的秘書長林佳龍以及行政院的副院長鄭文燦"},{"start":7169.025,"end":7193.335,"text":"到彰化的時候跟彰化人清楚的表明說要在這邊再繼續蓋焚化爐這件事情是徹底的抹黑是假消息絕對沒有要出力那沒想到在選舉結束了以後180度的大轉彎在選前做了沉默"},{"start":7194.505,"end":7213.663,"text":"在選後開始找各式各樣的理由我相信這絕對不是在台灣的民主政治當中大家樂見的狀況針對這件事情在上一次交付院會要處理的時候也是由民主經部黨"},{"start":7214.98,"end":7243.42,"text":"拉了協商要求臺灣民眾黨召集協商我們也按照當時院長的才事召集了協商那只不過說非常遺憾的民主進步黨並沒有派任何人來參與這個委員會的協商那也正是因為這個樣子所以我一開始的時候針對有關於我們接下來要進行的程序我請教了秘書長"},{"start":7245.439,"end":7270.972,"text":"秘書長可能是講話比較客氣一點沒有正面的來加以回應我本來以為我聽得應該是蠻清楚的但好像有人聽不懂所以我就再度的確認依照立法院職權行使法的規定交付協商以後基本上冷凍一個月超過一個月就可以處理"},{"start":7272.267,"end":7280.705,"text":"那在這個期限當中那負責召集協商的黨團 召集的協商如果有黨團代表不來的話"},{"start":7281.806,"end":7303.932,"text":"那等於是他們不願意參與這個協商那我們法定的程序也都進行完畢了嘛那因此在這個法定程序進行完畢了以後再由院長召集協商這件事情就不是法律上面的要求我想我的理解應該沒有錯誤"},{"start":7306.593,"end":7323.055,"text":"我們那個時候 之所以在那個時候是希望說要不要再讓院長召集一次協商因為立法院執行刑事法裡面的規定黨團可以請求院長召集協商因此我們也是本於善意做了這樣子"},{"start":7324.156,"end":7350.791,"text":"的建議請院長再召集協商不過我相信剛剛秘書長對於我們運作規則的解釋應該已經解釋得非常清楚了我再重複一次第一個在一個月裡面我們就依照院長的裁示召集了協商那民主進步黨不願意派人來參與我們也尊重因為你不能強迫人家一定要來嘛但"},{"start":7352.27,"end":7368.01,"text":"當進行完了這個法定程序了以後依照立法院職權刑事法的規定過了一個月我們就可以交由院會來交由處理我想這個理解應該是不會有什麼樣子的錯誤以上說明院長"},{"start":7370.011,"end":7383.62,"text":"好 請柯建銘總統發言時間三分鐘 謝謝我今天沒有什麼所謂時間三分鐘他在講你沒有講時間三分鐘我們都不要正面這個事情我們把事情講清楚就好針對黃國昌委員剛才的發言"},{"start":7386.109,"end":7406.435,"text":"我剛才一直在講 你是坐在立法院 你是法醫博士 你今天把法醫視為無誤你認為你今天和國盟加起來 衣服在國盟身上加起來 你還會不會兩人可以轉動台灣 為所欲為你沒有看到 你直接清楚 等六十八條講七十一條"},{"start":7407.935,"end":7423.658,"text":"首先他講說他們及禁貨圖禁貨圖的時候假如各黨都沒有意見簽名以後當然是馬上出議有人有意見他能交文找我協商這是再清楚不過的事情"},{"start":7425.32,"end":7441.716,"text":"這麼清楚的事情竟然你也可以取決說是民進黨法是罪可以復仇至於案子就是說大家都同意那才清明你也可以用這個法案來解釋這個事情以後說法案就法案你委員會了"},{"start":7442.797,"end":7445.799,"text":"所有案子來參與協商８立法院黨團協商．議案協商．議案協商．議案協商．議案協商．議案協商"},{"start":7466.813,"end":7477.263,"text":"我說好像民進黨是民進黨最有貨手把交易炒到協商這一定要炒到協商不然按大家意料的委員會不必了嘛所以要充分這一個第二個就是說"},{"start":7479.594,"end":7508.705,"text":"那 院長有職權 在時間刑事法院 歸議 歸議很幾乎而且最重要一條就是68條 黨團協商這是 這是一個規定 是院長所有職權是分在這裡所以法院長你要看清楚 你當院長有什麼權利 你能夠做什麼事情雖然我們都知道 有所謂立法院 立法院組織法在我們過去在一二零六以後修了就是說院長必須推出政黨"},{"start":7510.031,"end":7520.323,"text":"因為院長必須一時中旅但是我的院長如果刑處之前呢所以有這些刑事法所以刑事法在規定所有委員怎麼刑處之前"},{"start":7522.344,"end":7544.735,"text":"所以在68條 最重要是在給院長用的一個 院長的條款68條怎麼可以 黨團協商 或是議案協商 或是有爭議處理的時候是要院長可以自己召集 或是你們可以要求院長自己召集所以相對這個記憶是存在的 可是這個院長從前面都沒有做到"},{"start":7547.497,"end":7560.386,"text":"連什麼全部都沒有功能是不可能的事情嘛所以他要問為什麼 為什麼院長是很重要因為他是必須意識跟中立那立法院能夠一輪就下來但是反而當了立法院院長當了17年副院長當了6年"},{"start":7564.188,"end":7585.709,"text":"我們都一起走過這樣的時光但是以後來的蘇貞全或游委員長 大家都秉持很多事情就是說以後一定就是要把大家的爭競事件處理掉 意識能夠存立法案能夠好好討論 議案也可以好好討論 這才是立法院"},{"start":7586.73,"end":7606.747,"text":"但是呢 很一樣的 洪昌偉在過去二零一回合 我在選舉的時候一直攻擊我秘書協商 要違背中心主義但是 因為那時候 因為我還沒有直播這是自律史人 好像是我 我和王議長兩人就是秘書協商僑王"},{"start":7608.248,"end":7627.902,"text":"這就是法院法律法律國際法院直播者的直播法所以你一直在做我觀察你很久我一直看著你一任的轉變然後你今天這個樣子大家都不開會這樣罰手機什麼都沒有人的時間這應該是一個很重要的時刻為什麼 韓英隆比較對不起"},{"start":7632.625,"end":7637.76,"text":"等一下,還沒講完,對不起,我幫我把話講清楚,今天大家把話講清楚"},{"start":7639.525,"end":7667.228,"text":"你的正義處理正義解決在你三十年來議員會沒有發生的事情我對不起那個委員會跳號至於說有人能夠隔空投票這些都是要改進的部分但今天裡面的常常人的關頭的時候你要特別謹慎我一直需要跟你講說議員長你是很重要的因為議員的自信維持你是一個重材質而且直接性的把你規定得這麼清楚"},{"start":7668.129,"end":7669.173,"text":"好,我們看黃國昌,議員委員都很注意,我看他出來黑一腳"},{"start":7674.127,"end":7700.524,"text":"那你記得4月20號發生什麼事情大家都會注意4月22號民進黨的國會改革方案在委員會裏面你們一排你洪汪汪叫國民黨把他撒廢掉就當你委會也不能審到委員會的時候照過去一條沒有審的話就照委員會金融組沒有協商不用討論也把你轟炸掉你那天還要罵換你那天就是這樣你在演一個什麼你在演一個國民黨維持的角色"},{"start":7701.545,"end":7713.264,"text":"你製作會的嘛所以今天我要談黃國昌運動與球這很嚴肅的問題我希望你出來打球變成洛湖所謂我今天要談的就是說好你今天所謂就提到本案"},{"start":7714.329,"end":7740.782,"text":"本來是僅僅 張嬅僅僅嘛那我知道張嬅好 應該 我也不熟 聽很多文化族一個對質要搞準 能夠企圖 當地經濟反彈非常厲害反正是所有的 所有的 政府 公共建設 或是BOT 乃至BOT哪會排除經營抗爭 都很能走得下去所以大家都很清楚 包括民進黨的所有立委我們張嬅所有立委 包括吳云林 包括"},{"start":7742.903,"end":7749.911,"text":"每一個人的立委都很清楚,這大致民國沒有好處,我們走不下去,這很清楚所以你剛才講的說,今天副委員長承諾這不會去,這朝鮮有方向,就是說大家都知道"},{"start":7763.123,"end":7783.232,"text":"這要如何發動企業起來,雖然環保已經通過,但環保已經通過以後有很多程序要進行,但是在抗爭的時候,那程序沒有效性合法性的走來的話,當然這個東西一定會發生衝突,一定是起不來"},{"start":7784.773,"end":7795.022,"text":"我今天講的一個事情說﹖這是中華﹖所有人都知道的﹖這個不值得去﹖而且市民都反對﹖在這時候﹖我們要講國家潛力分裂原則"},{"start":7800.449,"end":7814.199,"text":"這停下來誰會把他停下來他也可以走通告程序啊這個程序可以走的你如果停下來你如果停下來你要給他蓋了所以這裡面又很重要一個潛力分立原則"},{"start":7815.02,"end":7840.737,"text":"假如你有反應對於所有任何政策或任何工程你下次也可以說把這個台中南線停下來這個風雲旗 風雲快停下來所有公共公園都停下來 立法院做個檢疫停下來這個是依法行事的政府而且這個是潛力分立原則假如說你要把它停不具理由的話當然要國賠這要當公共情策"},{"start":7842.208,"end":7852.573,"text":"往回頭過來你以為可以做個決議引起到行政權的裁決嗎大家都知道有些人把財政結果沒有辦法可以走下去將來這個責任歸屬在什麼地方"},{"start":7856.109,"end":7866.031,"text":"那有沒有行為訴訟 乃至於司法訴訟 這是國會問題 這個一定要國外上做但是橫空跑出一個立法院跳出來說你把他停下來 現在就把他停下來 做個結議這種結議就跟剛才一樣 那個三個結議一樣 排電依法"},{"start":7879.256,"end":7892.232,"text":"因為1961年的時候有這個公式但是五十五年沒有改所以到1961年的時候1964年的時候沒有公式來批凡審議沒有人審因為在審議的時候"},{"start":7895.496,"end":7905.42,"text":"來自一套一百零六的時候 第二條法把他放不上去了 作之法 但是今天行政部門依法來處理的時候必須漲電價 當然漲電價他必須 財務有問題嘛 這個補貼 還是要漲電價 還有台灣的政治 等種方式來拯救台電嘛"},{"start":7917.627,"end":7930.401,"text":"所以他是依法在處理的,對於法規很清楚結果立法院跳脫法律,你給我停下來就停下來,沒有這個東西,存在的今天也是一樣,我們共同的看法"},{"start":7935.066,"end":7959.514,"text":"但後續處理應該是主要處理這個有行政程序的問題也有國安法的問題責任規則的問題可是這是屬於行政權憲法上的權力分裂原則你一晚可以做任何決議去停止很多東西的話你找不到法條過去有幸好有七條立法院可以對於國家重要政策予以變更之我曾經用這個法條來去把合適廢掉"},{"start":7962.535,"end":7986.769,"text":"當然是後來李德威修正把五七角已經凍結掉了你如果說立法院這個權利也沒有了所以對策要衝上去 這樣政策也要凍結掉但是有那個合適五二一事件的時候是這樣你就是行為主動我這個政策沒有辦法處理下去的時候要預言做報告這是一個憲法規定"},{"start":7988.85,"end":8005.918,"text":"憲法以前沒有五七九立法院的這個權利已經被修正斷絕掉所以今天我們面對的說行政部門他依法行事的時候你立法委員他依照法律你依照法律可以做任何決議說你不要有關法律你給他停下來再說"},{"start":8008.827,"end":8008.847,"text":"黃國昌議員"},{"start":8025.294,"end":8041.185,"text":"立法院只要你加起來多數 每個禮拜五都同一個結議 什麼事情都不能做 行政局只要依法行事 你做這個結議都是無效的 這個要很清楚"},{"start":8042.226,"end":8065.297,"text":"今天兩個人都變成同樣窮勁就是說要停下來要如何有秩序的出場然後這責任規則弄清楚這才是行政部門要的要做的我們都有一個公平的看法這五花都去 要把它填起來如果有問題你投資這個是你投資的你反正說停下來就停下來沒有一定相信國賠嘛"},{"start":8067.486,"end":8089.88,"text":"所以在這個法律程式上 公法程式上 大家要想清楚我們要看法會一致的 反正沒有法律程式就沒有法律了 這個應該是這樣嘛但是呢 這個是依法形式的 所以希望大家談事情都要理性來談不是說違法 定義法這樣做 比這樣檢疫 加違法 都不能這樣 都不可能"},{"start":8091.301,"end":8092.602,"text":"現在我們請洪孟楷署長舉手"},{"start":8112.183,"end":8112.343,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":8131.952,"end":8132.112,"text":"張嬅焚化爐新建案"},{"start":8153.191,"end":8181.241,"text":"那現在發生的事情是什麼就是金鼎這個公司他違反了雙方的合約包括他沒有辦開工前的說明會包括他沒有取得建造前就提早開工然後還有什麼黑衣人來說明會現場我們也都難以容忍也不可接受那當然也包括他沒有依據合約的規定在新建期後的六個月他還是沒有辦法動工所以金鼎確實是有違約"},{"start":8182.742,"end":8209.778,"text":"但是違約解約有兩種方式對方違約要解約但是該負責任的是金鼎今天如果用民眾黨提案的文字這種所謂這種非常不明不白的政治承諾的說法就逼迫變成是經濟部來主動解約這造成的後果是什麼變成民眾黨在幫金鼎的忙"},{"start":8210.758,"end":8233.655,"text":"幫金鼎卸責幫金鼎這家公司規避了他的責任所以方向不能搞錯這個案子要解約就依據合約來做違約方金鼎他應當來進行他的解約的事項而經濟部的立場就是來檢視終止契約的這個做法"},{"start":8234.435,"end":8243.827,"text":"這是循程序,這是依法制,這也是依合約但是呢,不要用這種很寒酷的政治攻擊式的提案這沒有辦法解決這個個案,只會讓它政治化了"},{"start":8249.634,"end":8253.1,"text":"所以站在彰化鄉親的角度民進黨也支持其實方向我們跟民眾黨是一樣的違約的廠商該解約就解約只是不要幫他卸責不要幫金鼎解套我相信這應當也不是民眾黨的原意啦"},{"start":8264.798,"end":8264.918,"text":"周萬蘭秘書長"},{"start":8286.875,"end":8312.794,"text":"然後呢國民黨的委員跟你講話你馬上就approach上去這不是秘書長應當有的態度秘書長是立法院的秘書長您剛剛這樣的做法就是非常清楚請不要有這樣子的秘書長的作為好不好我跟您討論的議案的內容我們都有大家都是立法委員沒有誰那麼大誰那麼小沒有因為他是國民黨"},{"start":8314.835,"end":8317.155,"text":"請莊瑞雄幹事長發言我是第一次發言我早上這樣冷眼旁觀"},{"start":8342.932,"end":8357.745,"text":"院長其實以你的高度來看這個朝野協商都希望它更有效率政黨之間各言各字也都很正常但是我也不認為說就像副根基總統所講的民進黨對於落敗沒關係"},{"start":8362.622,"end":8373.318,"text":"院長你何其聰明啊看那個眼神你就知道了要講話大聲每個人都會大聲啊我講的話超級大聲的時候你會覺得說我對你充滿了善意眼神你分辨得出來啊他都在給你下打指令勒"},{"start":8377.754,"end":8388.637,"text":"這樣比較好,你做議長,你不是副總編寫案的你像今天民眾黨這種案子,我倒這樣認為你像譬如說,在一個地方的一個重大建設裡面我們剛剛為什麼在談到說,在黨團協商裡面"},{"start":8396.884,"end":8418.223,"text":"那個其實從過去慣例來看,我們那天講的是在程序上是三藏實質上或者說牽扯到法案的時候,這個案子你就看得出來,各委員會的召委,它就有必要出席的重要性不然你知道說我們退回不夠嗎?慣例也都是如此啊,憲政都可以創造慣例的,何況是立法院過去的慣例如果是好的"},{"start":8419.909,"end":8436.058,"text":"何必別人大小聲 院長你這個案子看起來好像叫做退縮啊以民政黨這個案子我來看的話各個政黨之間我看沒有什麼不同的一個意見哪有什麼一個地方的一個重大的一個建設你違反法令然後你就說"},{"start":8438.254,"end":8465.888,"text":"馬上就是先行去做動工該召開的一個公聽會裡面什麼你刻意去排除不同意見的人這個每一個政黨都沒有辦法容忍這一些啦只是說我們立法院在做成一個決定的時候是我們不是說做一個決定然後就去害經濟部說我們做一個決議馬上就停就好像不付任何理由在講他就一定馬上就去做一個停工這也不對"},{"start":8467.728,"end":8478.866,"text":"我們做出一個決議去衍生後面的讓整個國家立法院也算是一個憲政機關都是一個國家裡面的分官設置不同的一個憲政的一個機構"},{"start":8480.307,"end":8498.152,"text":"那我們做出來的是說 喔 立法院做一個決議說經濟部立刻馬上把它終止掉 然後讓廠商跟你要求國賠這那個決議也不對 所以我倒會覺得說 大家看法都一樣的時候 這件事也可以再修正就可以嘛"},{"start":8499.482,"end":8525.984,"text":"民眾黨這個我也支持啊但問題是說我們倒不是說立即停止章兵工業區去興建不是用這樣的一個方式啊是我們是怎麼樣讓經濟部這個地方欸!不要說這個案子你做一個廣義料衍生到最後那大家會覺得說欸!立法院在幹什麼我最擔心的是到最後是讓廠商該負的責任那變成立法院做成一個決議讓他脫免了這個責任"},{"start":8528.489,"end":8533.958,"text":"這個我是覺得這個才是一個重點,這個以上第一次很誠懇的這樣的一個發言"},{"start":8540.783,"end":8564.223,"text":"現在大家已經進入到一個很重要的這個比較依法行事這個蓋不下來蓋不下來是依照企業來行事你一直沒有動工是不可抗議是規則已遂這個動作當然很清楚你像黃國昌委員每次你笑都看不到黃國昌你生意很難都把你填起來"},{"start":8565.604,"end":8581.296,"text":"這沒什麼賠當然一黨合約可以終止一黨合約法可以終止嘛這法是非常認定的你這些成績都不要那是誰起的頭回到水這兩面大家都看得出來嘛"},{"start":8582.854,"end":8598.986,"text":"你不要以為你有道德官方你的道德官方已經做出了嚴重的挑戰我們都在看實質上內容是怎麼樣一回事政府一定要議會的行為議會會來真的有問題的話行政法院還有行政法院還有仲裁的行政法院等著要做"},{"start":8599.847,"end":8617.805,"text":"政府可以說立法院叫我停,那以後政府很好搞,叫立法院幫我停什麼停什麼,這樣就結束了吧這是前面的原則嗎?這個是有法律嗎?後面的故事,把大家想像,這故事講起來可以帶很多想像空間的"},{"start":8620.976,"end":8635.973,"text":"報告各位查理協商各黨團幹部還有各行政部門的列席官員非常感謝大家一個早上跟各黨團報告第九案各黨團也沒有辦法達成共識院會處理方式就依照前兩案宣告方式處理二我們等一下就院會繼續開會處理上開議案"},{"start":8638.92,"end":8640.702,"text":"現在黨團朝野協商 散會"},{"start":8670.496,"end":8670.798,"text":"也就是為﹐"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}