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健保署要不要處理這個再這樣他要搞個洗腎 要搞個醫美 要搞個什麼的話一年做個一億兩億三億都超過 比地區醫院還大我現在想要來 我今天有提案喔是不是在美醫 會重症的醫師外科的還是什麼的他的醫師扣除喔"},{"start":141.252,"end":151.078,"text":"所得稅扣除,我們來調查一下查友會那邊我已經找要提案了那你的看法是怎麼樣好,第一個其實"},{"start":152.898,"end":179.324,"text":"我在八九年前就在財政委員會當立法委員的時候就提出幫醫院的一個累積一些相關的開銷,尤其是醫師醫事人員能夠扣稅啦但是在財政委員會是沒有通過啦我想後來大家也一直在關心這件事情那集中症的醫院第一個他的"},{"start":180.703,"end":203.248,"text":"真的各個醫院為了要撐這個集中這個責任醫院真的花了很多的成本也必須要怎麼樣去留住他更多的力度這才能夠維繫我們在醫療體系很重要的一環所以我完全贊成蘇昭偉的一個建議我們看怎麼樣來溝通這可能在財委會那邊要"},{"start":208.001,"end":229.756,"text":"我知道就是因為這個我以前都提過案所以我知道這個要做很多的溝通診所你叫他要死保死消診所因為78%這個必要費用那剩下22%要繳稅要扣掉他的薪資怪不得要繳三萬五萬、三萬"},{"start":233.237,"end":254.849,"text":"我一天去中部某大型醫學中心我去那裡看,我還在做專業會我去急診室看,那急診室的醫生,是給我叫說知道我是入胃又鹹,在室內他說,哇,副教授,學理科的副教授現在坐在這裡看急診,那時候要10點,晚上兩個年輕夫婦帶孩子來,看得不舒服,還在叫"},{"start":261.201,"end":288.42,"text":"他說我做到補考的時候就是要用腳我阿姓現在都早上在開業都他的菜市場靠得到他的休業套餐秋節套餐現在九點多他們在喝紅酒看了在喝紅酒他說這什麼體統所以我早上我趕快把他們的小學科的急診的調點調很多 調五十幾%但是還是不夠所以健保署對於這個不能"},{"start":290.467,"end":318.53,"text":"市長 欸 署長 副署長你要怎麼處理啊 要怎樣 要怎樣 這一定要處理 不然醫生遭料了這是這樣啦 其實我們現在分區的管理 現在醫事公會全聯會也提一個案那11基層總額 他就提到到某一個 他收錄到某一個勘詐的心 就要責負啦"},{"start":321.875,"end":345.503,"text":"這個目前當然應該還是在討論當中啦,討論當中那至於說我們過去就在實施中,你不要疑心一直去大便開的精塑一直走著走著去,現在過去就有慣例,如果數額比較高,譬如說超過十萬塊就會特別的一個那個"},{"start":346.829,"end":375.019,"text":"就會把他責負啦也是一直在想辦法但是我還是要跟趙薇報告一下齁其實不是所有的診所都是明星診所啦齁你如果去走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走"},{"start":376.414,"end":395.888,"text":"他比較不會...講過不要說講過,怕犯罪的一個互動,很多醫生就覺得要轉眼而已沒有啦,就是所以這個弱勢的診所,我們也要照顧這個我贊成那比較...所以這個要整體的考驗,不是像我舉個例子,台北市"},{"start":397.631,"end":412.765,"text":"所以你看一天如果沒有看到30個意思是沒薪水的但是有超過30個的不到50%"},{"start":414.744,"end":426.862,"text":"大型然後像前幾天有一個開幕的吹牛吹說他一年要搞幾億幾億這個要加強管理好不好當然當然那另外一個我要一個提案就是麻醉的事情"},{"start":428.137,"end":457.537,"text":"那個七百多家醫美診所只有四十家接受評鑑然後其他的麻醉就出問題啦那麻醉醫學會我也不看他們就三百萬麻醉醫學會好像說他們很重要他們沒人他們就學生才這麼少每年的專科醫師限定名額大家保障既得利益者眼科也是一樣麻醉科也是一樣然後在外面沒人所以我今天提案有一個"},{"start":459.578,"end":480.087,"text":"心臟外科的醫師,移植外科的醫師,或者重症的醫師等等你給他訓練麻醉,讓他接受一個程度讓他去執行也是相關的麻醉,那你要很高檔的就不要做那這樣的話也可以紓解這些麻醉"},{"start":481.394,"end":505.011,"text":"量能不夠不然我看麻醉醫學院沒有補啊繼續在出問題這個你當理事長我當理事長我們這樣看得下去嗎台大院長你這樣看得下去嗎對不對欸 那要Cue你了我跟你講不然這樣要怎麼改革我再說這個案子是可以研議的吧我想 市委市召委過去一直在醫界當領袖也一直在"},{"start":506.144,"end":531.03,"text":"那個推動這個品質安全我們已經發表很久了嘛所以品質安全絕對是變成品質安全絕對是我們藝界努力的目標啦啊現在就是人數的shift變成你到時候大便的時候沒辦法起床因為麻醉的問題嘛所以這也要麻醉藝學院各個專科藝學院都有他的立場啊"},{"start":532.193,"end":544.383,"text":"所以這個可能真的要做下來研議啦不管是從醫院的解決或者是從診所方面他們的現在來大醫院麻醉醫師都缺啦麻醉科醫師說全部都要麻醉科醫師"},{"start":548.24,"end":560.311,"text":"你看那些人他們沒有人他們根本就擺爛了總是不能讓那個沒有他們也是得頭很優秀啦也很堅持我說他們醫學要處理這一塊是擺爛啦我不是說他們醫師哪有這個部分真的要大家站在站在團隊立場共同解決全國醫界的"},{"start":568.358,"end":596.078,"text":"人民的健康 醫界的問題 大家齁講實在啦 醫生要在醫生訓練到PY2其實都已經很堅強很強了啦他只要再接受一些訓練的話 其實他可以做更多符合社區民眾需求的這個馬上研議啦齁 健保署來啊 請台大副院長副院長主席給我一分鐘啦好 沒問題"},{"start":599.369,"end":622.995,"text":"院長,你的副院長是女醫師協會的理事長嘛,副職人嘛。那我說你是台大院長龍頭,台灣最高的,跟龍總是兩個在既競爭又聯合。我要跟你說,我把你趕走啦,你有話要說的不要說太快,不要講太快,不要衝第一線,這樣很危險啦。"},{"start":623.84,"end":643.565,"text":"像上次,今年7月在改那個法律的時候,健保法我是推1.1塊錢,有在簽1.0.95,王一鳴那我後來我也撤了,就是說用主決議來協商,感謝邱副長這陣子拚到這時你去回天堂"},{"start":647.779,"end":656.055,"text":"你給我講說1.1塊錢會有道德瑕疵我還真是吞不下去你說的三藝四蛤沒有"},{"start":658.429,"end":686.386,"text":"謝謝委員蘇委那我首先要謝謝蘇委員替我們一介包括剛才那兩個案子我們都贊成而且集中南韓的醫師在不夠已經是現在進行式不是未來式那假如我們沒有更好的作為那第二個是我是擔心健保會破產不是不是因為因為大家也知道我們為了保久已經一年要補那麼多假如是一點一塊我怕我們這整個"},{"start":687.827,"end":712.773,"text":"國家所以那時候我跟陳為民院長其實是在台大榮總在開會的時候有記者來問我我不是說這個會這個會讓我 因為現在其實大家知道健保是總額制嘛總額制假如我們訂了1.1塊的話就等於把總額制取消那這個確實會有很大的管理危機啦1.1塊錢會有道德消失1.0.95就不會有道德消失嗎你覺得在睡嗎"},{"start":717.815,"end":732.933,"text":"講這個聽不下去所以不要說太快你這樣把我們打下去我們大家都灰頭土臉沒有沒有沒有健保組織不會倒健保要怎麼可能會倒啦老保怎麼會倒啦單身便衣會倒 醫生會倒台台你再說你0.9就可以了"},{"start":734.486,"end":758.591,"text":"這毛鼠你醫藥代替都給他定點酒就好了因為他有很多公務預算所以怎麼補都補得起來邱部長 意思是不是這樣台大給他定點酒 醫藥都給他定點酒fix 固定點子給他沒有台大沒有那麼多公務預算還是要還是要自相自滅現在台大的無面小現場頭髮越掉越多為什麼因為現在很多地方"},{"start":759.691,"end":783.953,"text":"都要臺大去幫忙,說你請你們來我們機關其實那些如果沒有一點盈餘來做怎麼去增加教學費用,怎麼去增加病人的需求怎麼去協助偏鄉地區的一些工作所以我想給他足夠的一個點數真的很感謝,這是必要的"},{"start":785.294,"end":808.545,"text":"不用特別對台大那個啦不用特別跟他照顧不用特別跟他照顧 普通照顧就好沒有啦 我要說的意思是每件事都很辛苦啦醫療有點節育他才有能力去改善品質 增加設備 增加方式那儀器都這麼貴這本來就要放策略性的一點盈餘嘛不然的話怎麼搞得下去每一個人都臨臨 大家都這樣"},{"start":811.346,"end":832.892,"text":"白白的安然然,要有點風吹草動就受不了了因為立法院要編特別預算了對不對所以給各個議院有一點盈餘,一點點活水才有辦法做法務委員我想不管是哪一個黨派或者是政府都希望健保能夠永續"},{"start":833.925,"end":852.023,"text":"都希望用最低的保惠能夠照顧最多的所以這個其實過去幾十年來在醫療體系的改革工作環境的改善大家都一起在努力那在健保總和這個制度之下大家有不同的見解我也希望召委了解到不同的見解但是就了解了所以對於總和的評論"},{"start":856.145,"end":866.097,"text":"有各種不同的見解 那我想我們都榮惜但是就是最重要大家心都一致的希望人民得到最充分的健康照顧最後問吳院長"},{"start":868.089,"end":885.966,"text":"你這件事 富山哥這件事 什麼很多事情你到底是往大壓力 什麼資政局就把你施壓 把你關收 關心 關切我們立法院不關收 我們都把你關心 關切而已我們從來不關收 你是到底 你承受多大的壓力謝謝 謝謝 其實"},{"start":888.428,"end":911.947,"text":"真的謝謝今天有這個會讓我一次把話講清楚其實這個都是我們獨立獨立調查而且獨立送懲戒獨立在整個調查的過程當中我個人沒有接過任何一通電話那我也今天特別請我們調查委員會的主任委員也是我們性評會的主任委員也是我們女醫師全國的高淑溫教授"},{"start":912.267,"end":925.492,"text":"我有問他說有沒有人打電話甚至任何包括打電話寫email或寫什麼沒有我再一次的重申沒有壓力而且我們也是做了應該是說"},{"start":927.267,"end":943.011,"text":"以我們的行政效率的話是完全沒有去去去打擾這點謝謝蘇委員還有今天有好幾位委員都提到這件事情那我趁這個機會在此澄清好謝謝好謝謝接下來我們處理臨時提案"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:53:54.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:54:00.737000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我請邱部長還有健保署陳副署長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T10:54:01.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:54:02.719000+08:00","text":"請邱部長和健保署。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T10:54:02.719000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T10:54:06.716000+08:00","text":"蘇委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:54:06.716000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T10:54:10.713000+08:00","text":"部長辛苦了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:54:10.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:54:17.760000+08:00","text":"我現在問你兩個問題，等一下再問臺大院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:54:18.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:54:26.228000+08:00","text":"現在診所越開越大，前幾天看到，嚇死人了，診所那麼大間，然後把醫院的醫生都吸光光。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:54:27.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:54:28.990000+08:00","text":"為什麼診所會越開越大？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:54:29.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:54:30.792000+08:00","text":"這是我們稅制的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:54:33.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:54:52.213000+08:00","text":"像臺大醫院和中大型醫院的醫生，每一筆錢都要繳所得稅，但是到診所去掛個虛名的共同負責人，一整年賺多少錢都沒人知道，結果他們繳的稅大概只有5萬元、10萬元或15萬元，可是留在醫院工作都要繳七、八十萬元，甚至上百萬元，你也繳過很多嘛！","quality":0.596},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:54:52.213000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T10:55:07.053000+08:00","text":"對不對？是啊！","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:55:07.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:55:14.040000+08:00","text":"長庚醫院急診部主任被找去開業，地點在民生東路，我那天特地跑去看一下，結果發現他在外面抽菸，而那間診所是做醫美的。","quality":0.51},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:55:14.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:55:14.940000+08:00","text":"這是很糟糕的事情，也是整個國家的損失！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:55:25.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:55:41.582000+08:00","text":"健保署昨天有說健保收入超過1億元的診所要評鑑還是什麼的，但是診所設施的評鑑標準和醫院有天壤之別，這個你要怎麼處理？","quality":0.585},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:55:42.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:55:43.122000+08:00","text":"健保署要怎麼處理？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:55:45.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:55:53.266000+08:00","text":"他搞個洗腎，又搞個醫美，又搞個什麼的話，一年做個1億、2億、3億都超過，比地區醫院還大！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:55:55.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:55:56.847000+08:00","text":"部長，我今天有提案喔！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:55:57.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:56:09.453000+08:00","text":"是不是針對醫院重症醫師、外科的還是什麼的醫師，把他們的所得稅扣除額調整一下？","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:56:11.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:56:15.577000+08:00","text":"財委會那邊我也會去找人提案，請問你的看法是怎麼樣？","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T10:56:16.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:56:42.703000+08:00","text":"第一個，其實我八、九年前在財政委員會當立法委員的時候就提出，讓醫院列舉一些相關的開銷，尤其是醫師，讓醫事人員能夠少扣一點稅，但是在財政委員會並沒有通過，不過後來大家也一直在關心這件事情。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T10:56:43.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:57:10.228000+08:00","text":"急重症醫院的部分，第一個，各個醫院為了要把急重症責任醫院撐起來，真的花了很多成本，為了留住醫師，也必須提供更多利多，才能維繫醫療體系很重要的一環，所以我完全贊成蘇召委的建議，看怎麼樣來溝通，可能在財委會那邊要多溝通。","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T10:57:16.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:57:20.445000+08:00","text":"因為我以前就曾經針對這個問題提案，所以知道要做很多溝通。","quality":0.654},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:57:20.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T10:57:27.930000+08:00","text":"然後是診所要叫它實報實銷。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:57:27.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:57:36.756000+08:00","text":"診所有78%是必要費用，只剩下22%要繳稅，再扣掉薪資，難怪只要繳3萬元、5萬元或10萬元！","quality":0.697},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:57:40.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:58:00.388000+08:00","text":"我有一次去看中部某大型醫學中心的急診室，急診醫師知道我是立委，同時還是全聯會秘書長，立刻開罵說：我是小兒科副教授，現在坐在這裡看急診！","quality":0.59},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:58:00.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:58:23.452000+08:00","text":"當時已經是晚上快10點鐘，兩個年輕夫婦帶小孩去看診，因為看得不痛快，就在那裡「譙」，他說自己做到副教授，竟然那樣被「譙」，而他的學生都跑出去在菜市場口、郵局前面或火車站前開業，他們晚上九點多就看完診，已經在喝紅酒了，這是什麼體統！","quality":0.388},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:58:23.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:58:30.477000+08:00","text":"所以我回來以後趕快設法幫他們調整小兒科急診的點數，而且調很多，調了百分之五十幾。","quality":0.541},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:58:30.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:58:32.978000+08:00","text":"但這樣還是不夠！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:58:32.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:58:41.911000+08:00","text":"所以副署長，健保署對於這個問題到底要怎麼處理？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T10:58:44.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:58:46.034000+08:00","text":"這一定要處理，不然醫師會跑光耶！","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T10:58:48.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:58:48.636000+08:00","text":"這是這樣啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T10:58:49.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:59:11.036000+08:00","text":"我們現在分區在管理，醫師公會全聯會也提了一個案，西醫基層總額、收入到某一個額度就要折付，這個案子目前應該還在討論當中。","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T10:59:15.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T10:59:37.050000+08:00","text":"其實過去就有實施相關的做法，亦即為了不讓大醫院的醫師一直跑到診所去，過去就有在管理，如果數額比較高，譬如說超過10萬元，就會予以折付，所以也是一直有在想辦法。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T10:59:37.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:00:07.297000+08:00","text":"但我還是要跟召委報告一下，其實並不是所有的診所都是明星診所，如果四處去看看，就會發現10間診所裡面可能有5間沒有患者，可是裡面的醫師，你看掛的都是榮總出身、臺大出身，真的有時候是因為他看的科別或是他的位置，或是他比較不會……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:00:07.297000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:00:08.297000+08:00","text":"廣告、推銷。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:00:07.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:00:10.920000+08:00","text":"不要說廣告啦，就是說跟患者的互動，很多醫生就只會他的專業而已。","quality":0.464},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:00:11.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:00:11.860000+08:00","text":"沒有啦，就是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:00:12.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:00:16.504000+08:00","text":"所以這些弱勢的診所我們還是要顧。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:00:16.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:00:17.024000+08:00","text":"這個我贊成。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:00:20.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:00:39.765000+08:00","text":"所以這個要整體考量，我舉個例子，臺北市的診所，要地，租金也貴，請人也貴，所以一天如果沒有看到30個，醫師是沒薪水的，但是有超過30個的不到50%。","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:00:41.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:00:49.496000+08:00","text":"大型的，然後像前幾天又有一個開幕的在吹牛吹說他一年要搞幾億、幾億，這個要加強管理，好不好？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:00:49.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:00:49.997000+08:00","text":"當然、當然。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:00:51.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:01:22.415000+08:00","text":"另外我還有一個提案就是麻醉的事情，七百多家醫美診所只有40家接受評鑑，然後其他的麻醉就出問題，麻醉醫學會，我也沒看到他們有什麼辦法，麻醉醫學會說他們多重要，他們沒人，學生這麼少，每年的專科醫師限定名額，大家保障既得利益者，眼科也是一樣，麻醉科也是一樣，然後在外面沒人。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:01:23.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:01:56.820000+08:00","text":"所以我今天的提案有一個是，心臟外科的醫師、移植外科的醫師或者重症的醫師等等，你去訓練他，他們都有專科醫師啊，你訓練他麻醉，讓他訓練到一個程度，就讓他們去執行相關的麻醉，那你要很高檔的就不要做，這樣的話也可以紓解這些麻醉量能不夠的問題，不然我看麻醉醫學會沒方法嘛，一直還在出問題，你當理事長、我當理事長，我們這樣看得下去嗎？","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:01:56.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:01:57.941000+08:00","text":"臺大院長，你這樣看得下去嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:01:57.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:01:58.141000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:01:58.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:02:02.344000+08:00","text":"我都要cue你了，我跟你講。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:02:02.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:02:03.204000+08:00","text":"部長，這樣要怎麼解決？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:02:03.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:02:06.347000+08:00","text":"我剛才說的這個案子是可以研議的吧？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:02:06.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:02:32.068000+08:00","text":"我想蘇召委過去一直在醫界當領袖，也一直在推動品質安全，我們已經打拚很久了，對於病人，品質、安全絕對是我們醫界努力的目標啦，現在就是人數的shift變成到時候大醫院都沒辦法開刀，因為麻醉的問題嘛。對啊。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:02:33.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:02:46.339000+08:00","text":"所以這也是要麻醉醫學會，各個專科醫學會都有它的立場啦，所以這個可能真的要坐下來研議，不管是從醫院的解決，或者是從診所方面他們的……","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:02:46.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:02:48.901000+08:00","text":"現在大醫院麻醉醫師都缺啦……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:02:48.901000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:02:56.962000+08:00","text":"因為如果全部都要用麻醉科醫師，問題是又沒有那麼多人，有這麼多人嗎？","quality":0.233},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:02:56.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:02:59.104000+08:00","text":"沒有，他們沒有人，他們根本就是擺爛啦！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:02:59.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:03:04.008000+08:00","text":"所以總是不能讓……他們也都很優秀啦，也很堅持……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:03:04.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:03:04.549000+08:00","text":"沒有，我是說他們醫學會在處理這一塊上是擺爛啦，我不是說他們醫師，沒有喔，他們很優秀喔！","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:03:05.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:03:33.351000+08:00","text":"這個部分真的要大家站在團隊的立場，共同解決全國人民的健康、醫界的問題，說實在的，你知道醫生訓練到PGY2，其實都已經很強了啦，他只要再接受一些訓練的話，其實他可以做更多符合社區民眾需求的治療。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:03:33.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:03:34.452000+08:00","text":"對，我的意思就是這樣，這個馬上研議啦。是。","quality":0.412},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:03:36.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:03:42.117000+08:00","text":"我請臺大吳院長，主席，再給我1分鐘。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:03:42.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:03:43.078000+08:00","text":"好，沒問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:03:46.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:04:30.045000+08:00","text":"院長，你的副院長是女醫師協會的理事長嘛，對協會負責任，我說你臺大院長是龍頭，是臺灣最高的，跟榮總兩個是暨競爭又聯合，我要跟你說，我跟你建議，你有時候講話不要講太快，也不要衝第一線，這樣很危險啦，像上次今年7月在修健保法的時候，我是推1點1塊錢，有的推1點0.95元，王育敏的部分，我後來也撤了，就是用主決議來協商，也感謝邱部長這陣子也拚得要死。","quality":0.748},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:04:30.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:04:40.089000+08:00","text":"那你在會上你跟我嗆說1點1塊錢會有道德瑕疵，我到現在還吞不下去耶！","quality":0.621},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:04:40.089000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:04:42.915000+08:00","text":"你說這個是什麼意思啊？","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T11:04:42.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:05:01.639000+08:00","text":"沒有，謝謝蘇委員，我首先要謝謝蘇委員替我們醫界，包括剛才那兩個案子我們都贊成，而且急重難罕的醫師不夠已經是現在進行式，不是未來式，假如我們沒有更好的作為的話。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T11:05:02.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:05:36.892000+08:00","text":"第二個，我是擔心健保會破產，因為大家也知道我們為了保9，一年已經要補那麼多，假如是1點1塊，我怕我們這整個國家……所以那時候我跟陳威明院長在臺大、榮總開會的時候，有記者來問我，我不是說這個會……因為大家知道健保是總額制嘛，假如我們訂了1點1塊的話，就等於把總額制取消，這個確實會有很大的管理危機。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T11:05:36.892000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:05:37.892000+08:00","text":"我當然支持……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:05:37.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:05:39.213000+08:00","text":"1點1塊錢會有道德瑕疵，1點0.95就不會有道德瑕疵嗎？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:05:39.213000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:05:44.815000+08:00","text":"你說這個簡直就是廢話！","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:05:44.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:05:50.742000+08:00","text":"講這個我真的聽不下去，所以以後話不要講太快，你這樣把我們打臉，我們大家都灰頭土臉耶……","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T11:05:50.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:05:51.443000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有、沒有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:05:51.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:05:53.725000+08:00","text":"健保絕對不會倒，健保怎麼可能會倒？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:05:54.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:05:55.307000+08:00","text":"勞保怎麼會倒？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T11:05:55.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:05:56.929000+08:00","text":"沒有啦，健保不會倒，但是醫院會倒、醫生會倒，這個是……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:05:58.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:06:08.787000+08:00","text":"臺大你還說你們0.9就可以了，健保署，以後臺大你都給它0.9就好了，因為它有很多公務預算，教育部也給它很多預算，所以怎麼補都補得起來。","quality":0.596},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:06:08.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:06:11.268000+08:00","text":"邱部長，意思是不是這樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:06:11.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:06:15.129000+08:00","text":"臺大給它0.9，以後都給它0.9固定點值。","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:06:15.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:06:18.009000+08:00","text":"沒有，臺大沒有那麼多公務預算，還是要……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:06:18.009000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:06:20.950000+08:00","text":"一年有補助幾十億……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:06:20.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:06:24.591000+08:00","text":"現在臺大的吳明賢院長頭髮越掉越多，為什麼？","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:06:24.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:06:43.987000+08:00","text":"因為現在很多地方都要臺大去幫忙啦，像雲林就說來給我們支援，高雄也要……其實那些如果沒有一點盈餘來做，怎麼去增加教學費用，怎麼去增加病人的需求，怎麼樣去協助偏鄉地區的一些工作？","quality":0.835},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:06:44.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:06:53.615000+08:00","text":"所以給它足夠的點數，真的很感謝，這是必要的啦，不用特別對臺大那個啦！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:06:54.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:06:55.396000+08:00","text":"你要特別給它照顧。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:06:55.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:06:58.337000+08:00","text":"不用特別給它照顧，普通照顧就好。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:06:58.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:07:15.025000+08:00","text":"沒有啦，我要說的意思是每間醫院都很辛苦啦，醫療有一點結餘，才有能力去改善品質、增加設備、增加房舍，儀器都這麼貴，這本來就要給他們一點策略性的盈餘嘛，不然的話怎麼搞得下去？","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:07:15.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:07:25.548000+08:00","text":"每一個人都在忍耐，大家皮都繃緊，有一點風吹草動就受不了了，立法院又要編特別預算了，對不對？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:07:25.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:07:31.830000+08:00","text":"所以給各個醫院有一點盈餘、一點點活水，才有辦法做嘛。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:07:32.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:07:57.161000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我想不管是哪一個黨或是政府都希望健保能夠永續，都希望用最低的保費能夠照顧最多的人，所以其實過去幾十年來，在醫療體系的改革、工作環境的改善，大家都一起在努力，在健保總額這個制度之下，大家有不同的見解，我也希望召委了解到不同的見解……","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:07:58.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:07:58.462000+08:00","text":"很了解啦！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:07:58.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:08:12.777000+08:00","text":"對總額的評論，有各種不同的見解，我想我們都容許，但最重要的是大家心都是一致的，希望人民得到最充分的健康照顧。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:08:12.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:08:21.275000+08:00","text":"最後我問吳院長，有關婦產科的這件事情、很多事情，你到底是多大的壓力？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:08:21.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:08:30.444000+08:00","text":"什麼資政級的給你施壓、給你關說、關心、關切，我們立法院沒有在關說，我們都只有關心跟關切而已，我們從來不關說。","quality":0.723},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:08:30.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:08:32.726000+08:00","text":"你到底是怎樣，你承受多大的壓力？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T11:08:32.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:09:28.150000+08:00","text":"謝謝，其實真的謝謝今天有這個會讓我一次把話講清楚，其實這都是我們獨立調查，而且獨立送懲戒，在整個調查的過程當中，我個人沒有接過任何一通電話，我今天也特別請我們調查委員會的主任委員，也是我們性平會的主任委員，也是女醫師協會全國的理事長高淑芬教授，我有問他說有沒有人打電話，甚至任何，包括打電話、寫email或寫什麼，沒有，我再一次重申，沒有壓力，而且我們也是做了……應該說以我們的行政效率，是完全沒有去耽擱，這一點謝謝蘇委員，還有今天有好幾位委員都提到這件事情，我趁這個機會在此澄清。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2025-01-02T11:09:28.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:09:29.191000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:09:29.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T11:09:29.991000+08:00","text":"接下來我們處理臨時提案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:09:30.491000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:09:36.205286+08:00","text":"我們現在處理臨時提案，總共有5個案子，請宣讀。一、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:09:36.505286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:10:14.219571+08:00","text":"有鑑於目前實務上，醫師在外開業的診所很多，單單醫美診所就有700多家，然只有40多家接受評鑑，診所缺少麻醉醫師，將帶給手術患者面臨麻醉的風險，爰提案要求衛福部研議辦理心臟外科、移植外科、重症等醫師，接受麻醉科一定期間的專業訓練之後，可以執行麻醉業務，以彌補專業人力的不足，降低重症患者的麻醉生命風險。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:10:14.519571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:10:17.376714+08:00","text":"蘇清泉　　陳昭姿　　涂權吉二、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:10:17.676714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:10:31.676714+08:00","text":"有鑑於目前相關診所規模越開越大，紛紛延攬大醫院急重症醫師前往診所執業，源於診所的稅率與醫院不同，較醫院低。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:10:31.976714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:10:45.405286+08:00","text":"爰提案要求衛福部提出改善方法，如在醫院的重症醫師所得稅，列有重症醫師特別扣除額；或者診所也要實報實銷。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:10:45.705286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:11:02.562429+08:00","text":"不然重症醫師前往診所執業的趨勢會越來越嚴重，而大醫院將會面臨缺乏重症醫師的情況，對於重症病患赴大醫院就醫之權利將會大受威脅。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:11:02.862429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:11:05.719571+08:00","text":"蘇清泉　　陳昭姿　　涂權吉三、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:11:06.019571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:11:46.019571+08:00","text":"衛福部霸凌案調查存在諸多問題，以劉玉娟主秘案為例，140份問卷當中，有47份指出劉玉娟曾歇斯底里大聲唯嘯，更有52份問卷指出劉玉娟有言語肢體或心理暴力的行為，最終結論卻僅基於15位員工的訪談定調為霸凌；另以祝健芳司長為例，調查結果公布後，已有被逼迫深蹲之當事人公開稱未參與訪談，調查結果與其認為受霸凌之感受有相當落差。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:11:46.319571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:12:04.319571+08:00","text":"上開案例顯示衛福部未能建立讓員工信任、說真話之訪談機制，願意參與訪談的員工其陳述多為有利遭調查之對象，導致問卷統計與訪談內容大相逕庭。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:12:04.619571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:12:16.333857+08:00","text":"另，劉玉娟於調查期間仍位於主秘一職，有權處理機密文件，更讓員工擔心若參與訪談會遭秋後算帳。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:12:16.633857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:12:39.776714+08:00","text":"爰提案要求衛褐部應比照勞動部之作法，公開調查報告（含扉查小組成員名單）讓社會檢視，並檢討此次調查缺失，以更適當之方法重啟調查，並於調查期間將有權處理機密文件之涉案人員調離現職。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:12:40.076714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:12:42.933857+08:00","text":"陳昭姿　　陳菁徽　　邱鎮軍四、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:12:43.233857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:13:16.662429+08:00","text":"有鑑於衛福部長邱泰源甫對外表示，在「絕不容許」醫師性騷事件發生的原則下，可研議建置平台公布如性騷行為等不良醫師的行為紀錄，藉以解決目前醫師在除非經判決確定或遭懲戒停業，才會因離開診間，連帶讓身分到最後一刻隨之被公諸於世，並讓就醫民眾背負莫大擔憂等問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:13:16.962429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:13:39.248143+08:00","text":"是以，考量民眾知情權之所需，以及就醫權益應受主管機關積極主動保護，特決議衛福部應限期於二個月內，啟動並完成醫師性騷擾行為揭露平台建置作業，俟後並向本委員會提交書面報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:13:39.548143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:13:42.405286+08:00","text":"陳菁徽　　蘇清泉　　陳昭姿五、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:13:42.705286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:14:05.848143+08:00","text":"有鑑於全台各地許多的醫事機關，在目前已有遺傳性及罕見疾病指定檢驗機構─臨床細胞遺傳學檢驗類執業醫師人員荒的問題，進而影響整體醫事業務完整，並有損少子化國安危機之解決量能。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:14:06.148143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:14:29.862429+08:00","text":"是以，特決議衛福部及所屬國民健康署，應限期於二個月內完成該類，國內人力提振之改善措施，並就新增報告簽署人資格審查委員會辦理審查作業精進及檢討，俟後並向本院衛環委員會提交書面報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（蘇委員清泉）","start":"2025-01-02T11:14:30.162429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:14:32.733857+08:00","text":"陳菁徽　　蘇清泉　　邱鎮軍","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:14:33.033857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:14:39.319571+08:00","text":"我們現在處理第一案，請問第一案行政單位有意見嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:14:39.619571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:14:40.619571+08:00","text":"沒有吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:14:40.919571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:14:44.062429+08:00","text":"行政單位要不要報告一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭專門委員威中","start":"2025-01-02T11:14:44.362429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:15:01.219571+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，剛剛部長在質詢臺已經有講我們研議，就是在「爰提案要求衛福部」加兩個字「研議」，然後接續「辦理心臟外科、移植外科……」，以下都是同樣的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:15:01.519571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:15:05.805286+08:00","text":"請問委員有沒有意見？沒有。通過。支持！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:15:06.105286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:15:07.533857+08:00","text":"好，感謝建國。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:15:07.833857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:15:11.262429+08:00","text":"衛福部要積極辦理、積極處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:15:11.562429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:15:14.991000+08:00","text":"第二案，行政單位有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:15:15.291000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:15:16.433857+08:00","text":"第二案呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭專門委員威中","start":"2025-01-02T11:15:16.733857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:15:33.876714+08:00","text":"第二案剛剛部長也在質詢臺講，就是「爰提案要求衛福部與財政部研擬改善方法」，修正於「衛福部」後加上「與財政部研擬」改善方法，把「提出」兩個字刪掉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:15:34.176714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:15:35.891000+08:00","text":"好，就改這裡。對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:15:36.191000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:15:37.191000+08:00","text":"好，可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:15:37.491000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:15:40.633857+08:00","text":"請問委員有沒有意見？召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:15:40.933857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:15:42.933857+08:00","text":"王正旭都繳很多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2025-01-02T11:15:43.233857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:15:57.805286+08:00","text":"我覺得這個提案對重症醫師來講有很大的幫助，也可以讓這些重症醫師喜歡、也願意留在大型醫療機構從事重症醫療工作。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2025-01-02T11:15:58.105286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:16:07.533857+08:00","text":"不過我現在比較擔心的是，關於重症，在定義上未來有沒有處理上的一些困難度？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2025-01-02T11:16:07.833857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:16:51.548143+08:00","text":"另外就是，其實所有的醫師在大型醫療機構的付出裡面都有一定的角色，我們現在是為了要減少，不管是院前診所或者是診所，來針對重症醫師提供適當的協助，事實上，我們也了解急重難罕的醫師都有相關的問題，他將來如果是受到診所的影響而離開的話，這對大型醫院來講都非常辛苦，而且對於民眾的健康維護，事實上有相關的困擾，這方面看看有沒有辦法一起討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2025-01-02T11:16:51.848143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:17:02.705286+08:00","text":"其實也有人說，除了醫師以外，護理師如果也是在照顧重症難罕的話，對他們的保障足不足夠？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2025-01-02T11:17:03.005286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:17:05.291000+08:00","text":"這部分也都有提過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2025-01-02T11:17:05.591000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:17:17.876714+08:00","text":"這部分可能在這個臨提裡面，如果只是單純針對重症醫師做扣除的話，似乎還可以有再調整的空間，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:17:18.176714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:17:31.891000+08:00","text":"護理人員要到比較高的稅率是比較少，所以這點確實就……倒是重症這邊要如何界定，這部分請部長、衛福部要去想想看。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:17:32.191000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:17:40.476714+08:00","text":"另外跟召委報告一下，「或者診所也要實報實銷」這個有需要寫在這裡嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:17:40.776714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:17:43.633857+08:00","text":"我們現在就要高責付了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:17:43.933857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:17:50.791000+08:00","text":"如果這樣下去，怕會對診所比較……會覺得有壓力，這個可能看……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:17:51.091000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:17:53.376714+08:00","text":"把那一句話劃掉嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:17:53.676714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:18:00.248143+08:00","text":"可能不需要，我們在這裡就加強重症的這部分比較重要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:18:00.548143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:18:02.262429+08:00","text":"只提重症就好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:18:02.562429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:18:11.419571+08:00","text":"或者大型的診所要能夠有適當管制什麼的，因為診所一半以上還是很弱勢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:18:11.719571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:18:22.291000+08:00","text":"不然就改成「或者大型診所也要實報實銷」，因為它的收入比醫院還高，「大型診所」這樣可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:18:22.591000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:18:26.305286+08:00","text":"好，「或者大型診所也要實報實銷」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:18:26.605286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:18:46.891000+08:00","text":"關於剛才王委員所提的，因為我們這裡是尊重提案委員，就提重症醫師，至於有沒有需要，你也可以另外再提，或者是這一次要在裡面一起考量進去，是不是請委員也裁決一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:18:47.191000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:18:52.619571+08:00","text":"王正旭委員，不然你要改成急重難罕還是怎樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2025-01-02T11:18:52.919571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:19:10.633857+08:00","text":"因為剛才討論的時候，急重難罕是一個大方向，其實我們知道兒科也是很需要幫忙的部分，所以真的就會越拉越需要，看衛福部這邊有沒有整體的考量。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:19:10.933857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:19:12.648143+08:00","text":"好啦，這是臨提……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員正旭","start":"2025-01-02T11:19:12.948143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:19:14.948143+08:00","text":"我知道這是臨提。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:19:15.248143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:19:20.391000+08:00","text":"不然寫多一點可能比較好，急重難罕暨兒科？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:19:20.691000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:19:46.691000+08:00","text":"現在兒科裡面有一些投入在罕病的其實也很辛苦，那些也很辛苦，醫院裡面的兒科醫師的確也很辛苦，不管哪一科，因為你看那不是副教授在值班，小兒科連教授都在值班，你看臺北慈濟的副院長是教授了都還要回去值班。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:19:46.991000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:19:48.991000+08:00","text":"「急重難罕」這樣嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:19:49.291000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:19:50.719571+08:00","text":"暨兒科所得……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:19:51.019571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:19:55.591000+08:00","text":"急重難罕裡面就包括兒科的急重難了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:19:55.891000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:19:57.033857+08:00","text":"急、重、難、罕。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:19:57.333857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:19:59.619571+08:00","text":"罕見，兒科都罕見的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:19:59.919571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:20:05.348143+08:00","text":"可是兒科的一般科……感染科也是很辛苦啊，還有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:20:05.648143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:20:08.791000+08:00","text":"好啦，急重難罕、兒科，這樣嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:20:09.091000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:20:13.376714+08:00","text":"「醫院的急重難罕暨兒科醫師所得稅」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:20:13.676714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:20:15.105286+08:00","text":"好，就加上去。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:20:15.405286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:20:19.976714+08:00","text":"這是研議嘛，說不定我們研議的過程中……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:20:20.276714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:20:22.848143+08:00","text":"你要去跟財政部研究。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:20:23.148143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:20:27.433857+08:00","text":"還會再發現有哪些是需要的，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:20:27.733857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:20:38.591000+08:00","text":"如果不讓這個通過，就要表決讓它通過，怎麼不會通過，死硬也要推到讓它過，不然都跑光光了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:20:38.891000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:20:44.319571+08:00","text":"部長，不能讓他們罷工，這真的會罷工，這很嚴重！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:20:44.619571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:20:46.048143+08:00","text":"好，那這樣就……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:20:46.348143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:20:56.919571+08:00","text":"先這樣，然後授權衛福部部長，如果你們討論過程當中有什麼需要再增加，因為讓你們研議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:20:57.219571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:20:58.933857+08:00","text":"那要再加「等」嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:20:59.233857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:21:00.233857+08:00","text":"「……兒科等」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:21:00.533857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:21:02.819571+08:00","text":"一樣，給他一些彈性。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:21:03.119571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:21:07.976714+08:00","text":"「急重難罕暨兒科」，就是在「重症」的地方都改。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:21:08.276714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:21:09.419571+08:00","text":"「暨兒科等」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:21:09.719571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:21:12.862429+08:00","text":"「暨兒科等」，這個是兒科專家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:21:13.162429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:21:15.162429+08:00","text":"對，「……暨兒科等」，這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:21:15.462429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:21:17.462429+08:00","text":"「暨兒科等」，這樣子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:21:17.762429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:21:20.048143+08:00","text":"吳院長，你有意見嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳院長明賢","start":"2025-01-02T11:21:20.348143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:21:25.776714+08:00","text":"我沒有，我很支持，我們的兒科主任已經去值班……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:21:26.076714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:21:28.648143+08:00","text":"對呀，兒科真的很缺人。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2025-01-02T11:21:28.948143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:21:34.376714+08:00","text":"沒關係啦，加一個「等」就趕快通過了，不要再講了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:21:34.676714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:21:35.819571+08:00","text":"對，彈性啦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:21:36.119571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:21:38.976714+08:00","text":"好，不要再講了，就改這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:21:39.276714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:21:40.276714+08:00","text":"第三案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:21:40.576714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:21:42.005286+08:00","text":"第三案，處長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2025-01-02T11:21:42.305286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:21:50.876714+08:00","text":"我是衛福部人事處，提案委員希望我們可以公開調查報告，這邊謹做說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2025-01-02T11:21:51.176714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:22:51.748143+08:00","text":"上次在我們專案報告的時候，委員希望我們去識別化之後將調查報告給衛環委員會，逐一說明、親持報告，幾位委員聽到我的報告，因為15位委員中我已經跑了13位，現場也有好幾位委員都有聽過我的報告，我在報告的時候不是只有針對我們整個報告的結果，連我們的作業方式、我們訪談同仁的相關運作方式及一些對話都有跟委員做一個報告，這確實是比較屬於內部管理，而且也比較屬於是同仁之間的，如果被公開出來，很容易去找到是誰去敘述這一段的相關過程，所以我們遵照上次委員會的決議去進行逐一說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2025-01-02T11:22:52.048143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:23:21.476714+08:00","text":"在過程中也非常謝謝很多委員都給我們一些建議，包括日後的一些相關精進措施，所以我們希望是不是可以再給衛福部一個機會，就是提案後面那一整段的文字調整成「爰提案要求衛福部應檢討此次調查缺失，並於二個月將檢討報告送衛環委員會」？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2025-01-02T11:23:21.776714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:23:24.062429+08:00","text":"以上文字建議，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:23:24.362429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:23:50.362429+08:00","text":"我今天早上質詢的時候已經有把你整個調查的品質提出來了，以主秘為例，140份問卷當中有47份指出他曾有歇斯底里咆哮等等行為，有52份指出他有言語肢體或心理暴力的行為，但是你最後用15位員工的訪談來定論他是未霸凌。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:23:50.662429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:23:59.233857+08:00","text":"第四行那個「為」字已經跟主席報告過，那個字應該是沒有的「未」，就是「未」霸凌。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:23:59.533857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:24:36.391000+08:00","text":"以這個為例，你這個方法學有很多問題，我今天早上質詢的時候你大概都在，然後有81.4%的人不願接受訪談，你們沒有辦法去處理，然後也講不出你以最後訪談了十幾個人，以一個人為例，光以主秘為例，140人你訪談了17人，那15人的結論都幫他講話，另外那2人講的那些話你們都當作耳邊風，事實上，你整個取樣也都是不對的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:24:36.691000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:25:08.405286+08:00","text":"所以我現在只是要求你們比照勞動部，勞動部有把這個調查報告公告上網，我沒有要叫你……我今天已經示範給你看了，我今天的質詢內容完全沒有涉及誰是被約談的，所以比照勞動部將調查報告上網，然後要包含調查小組成員名單，因為你說有外部，我到現在都沒有看到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:25:08.705286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:25:20.133857+08:00","text":"然後要用更適當的方法，因為我已經指出你的缺點了，你的這個取樣很偏頗，所以我叫你重啟調查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:25:20.433857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:25:32.148143+08:00","text":"至於檢討調查缺失，你剛剛說你要改成「檢討調查缺失」，剛剛根本沒有人承認他有缺失，怎麼檢討缺失？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:25:32.448143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:25:40.162429+08:00","text":"他根本沒有買單我的說法，但是我又那麼具體，你可以再去查一次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:25:40.462429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:26:15.891000+08:00","text":"再來就是說，涉案人員本身的那個職位有機密文件的管理權，我這個質疑百分百合理啊，他必須先離開這個現職，人家才能去做處理，將來假設他又回到現職，怎麼讓他避開去看到當初是誰說了他霸凌，這個東西你不處理，整個衛福部以後的工作士氣、以後的真相都沒有，我是要讓衛福部能夠好好工作耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:26:16.191000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:26:21.048143+08:00","text":"所以我提的這三點看不出有什麼問題啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:26:21.348143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:26:24.205286+08:00","text":"部長，我說的哪裡有問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:26:24.505286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:26:44.791000+08:00","text":"比照勞動部公開調查報告，你要怎麼遮都隨便你，然後要重啟調查，勞動部當時也是重啟調查，我已經告訴你缺失那麼多，光光你給我看的資料的結論就不是你該有的結論嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:26:45.091000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:26:54.233857+08:00","text":"我一直說，我只說一百八十幾個人，然後也寫出33%跟37人說他有霸凌，你當作沒有！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2025-01-02T11:26:54.533857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:27:33.105286+08:00","text":"不好意思，我針對委員的三點要再簡單說明，第一個，調閱權的部分，在公務員的部分絕對有迴避的問題，不只是職權迴避，而且有利益迴避，所以所有的調查報告，縱使他今天在哪個職位，縱使我今天人事處，如果人事處的案子被政風處調查，我人事處長也是不能去跟政風處調所有的報告，這個比喻可能不恰當，畢竟我們是平行單位……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:27:33.405286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:27:45.119571+08:00","text":"處長，我那天問你，你說是你在管的，我說他是你的上司，上司說要看那個調查報告，你根本不敢回答我……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2025-01-02T11:27:45.419571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:27:47.419571+08:00","text":"委員，我有回答你……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:27:47.719571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:27:48.719571+08:00","text":"終身嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:27:49.019571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:27:51.876714+08:00","text":"終身不准看那份文件嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2025-01-02T11:27:52.176714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:27:56.748143+08:00","text":"我說只要依照行政院的公文處理規定……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:27:57.048143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:28:00.762429+08:00","text":"他的職責就是可以看機密文件。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2025-01-02T11:28:01.062429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:28:07.348143+08:00","text":"沒有，我只要根據行政院公文處理的規定，利害關係人……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:28:07.648143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:28:12.791000+08:00","text":"不是這樣，他是當事人，他是被質疑的當事人。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2025-01-02T11:28:13.091000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:28:19.948143+08:00","text":"對，當事人或利害關係人絕對不可以調閱涉及自己的報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:28:20.248143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:28:24.248143+08:00","text":"處長，這一案你去跟他溝通，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:28:24.548143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:28:32.833857+08:00","text":"你去跟他溝通，然後我們就處理第四案，這個案子先保留，你們去談一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:28:33.133857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:28:50.276714+08:00","text":"他剛剛來溝通過了，我沒有辦法接受，就是比照勞動部的方式處理啊，勞動部第一次調查是內容滿完整，只是那個結論不對，有這個東西，但結論不對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2025-01-02T11:28:50.576714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:28:52.291000+08:00","text":"主席，我講一下！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2025-01-02T11:28:52.591000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:29:02.019571+08:00","text":"衛福部應該將你們跟勞動部的整個調查的差異在什麼地方講清楚，這是第一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2025-01-02T11:29:02.319571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:29:17.462429+08:00","text":"第二點，我是覺得陳委員的提案，我有點……對不起，我看了一下你的第三行寫到「最終結論卻僅基於15位員工的訪談定調為霸凌」嘛！不是！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:29:17.762429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:29:20.619571+08:00","text":"那個字是「未」，是「未」霸凌。喔。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:29:20.919571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:29:24.633857+08:00","text":"總共有140份問卷，最後15人說他沒有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2025-01-02T11:29:24.933857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:29:25.933857+08:00","text":"喔，好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:29:26.233857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:29:32.519571+08:00","text":"但是事實上有五十幾個人說他有霸凌，在匿名的時候……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2025-01-02T11:29:32.819571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:29:34.819571+08:00","text":"那這個「為」要改掉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:29:35.119571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:29:37.691000+08:00","text":"對，那個「為」要改掉，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:29:37.991000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:29:39.705286+08:00","text":"「為」要改成「未」啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2025-01-02T11:29:40.005286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:29:42.862429+08:00","text":"你們把差異說一下，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2025-01-02T11:29:43.162429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:29:44.591000+08:00","text":"差異說一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T11:29:44.891000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:30:08.891000+08:00","text":"主席，還有各位委員，非常感謝各位對於本案的關心，我想這個跟勞動部的差異大概有幾個部分，第一個，在勞動部那邊是屬於單一事件，我們這個事實上是根據委員所提供的資料，目前做了一個全盤的調查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T11:30:09.191000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:30:19.762429+08:00","text":"第二個，他所涉及的，我剛才說我們這裡面用的是量化跟質化，兩個部分同時並進、同時並行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T11:30:20.062429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:30:32.633857+08:00","text":"第三個，陳委員剛剛有提到的就是說我們的質化訪談裡面有2位認為有這樣的情況，可是另外15位認為是沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T11:30:32.933857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:31:04.076714+08:00","text":"其實在行政法裡面有一個叫做違失行為一體原則，就是說我們對於一個人的評價必須要整個綜合，你不能夠只是單聽某一個部分，這裡面確實有一些同仁認為他有比較大聲，但是其他的同仁認為沒有，我們調查委員是根據整個綜合的評價來進行這樣的一個判斷。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T11:31:04.376714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:31:32.376714+08:00","text":"還有非常重要的一點就是說，上次在衛環委員會裡面大家也都決議了，我們在邀請同仁來的時候，同仁基本上就是希望不要曝光，這基本上跟我們之前的那個性騷擾案事實上是類似的情況，所以我們基於對同仁的尊重，我們認為這個不宜。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T11:31:32.676714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:31:51.819571+08:00","text":"如果委員、如果大院覺得我們這裡面有一些程序上的瑕疵需要來改進，這個我們一定會來進行，是不是可以允許讓我們做整個調查報告之後，二個月之內再提出來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T11:31:52.119571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:32:01.833857+08:00","text":"我想這個是我對於我們之間的差異，還有我們目前的相關作為來跟大院做個報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T11:32:02.133857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:32:32.419571+08:00","text":"另外，剛剛委員有提到，以祝健芳司長為例，有被逼迫深蹲等等這些，其實之前我們也說過了，我們非常歡迎當事人能夠出來，他如果覺得不信任，沒關係，是不是有委員陪同，甚至他指定律師，這都沒問題，我們都公平、公正，可是這位同仁到目前為止就是不願意出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T11:32:32.719571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:32:57.576714+08:00","text":"所以我們基本上是完完全全是以這個程序來進行，我現在說程序上目前都已經進行，我們也根據委員會的決議，親持報告向委員做說明，所以是不是可以按照我們目前的程序，讓我們有二個月的時間再來做報告？","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2025-01-02T11:32:57.876714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:32:59.591000+08:00","text":"以上說明，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:32:59.891000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:33:03.033857+08:00","text":"召委，可以讓我說一下嗎？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:33:03.333857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:34:07.619571+08:00","text":"我覺得這個案子，其實無論是衛福部或是陳昭姿委員，大家都想要保護這一些受害者，我想這個是大家都可以接受的，所以陳昭姿委員提到這個主秘的部分，擔心他可能在這個職務上面或他可能職權比較高，然後可能會讓這些員工擔心將來會被秋後算帳，我覺得這個可能要請部長跟次長再考量一下，就是要確定一定不會有這樣的事情發生，我覺得陳昭姿委員是很好意，因為我們都是想要保護這一些員工，不要讓他們戰戰兢兢，今天好不容易鼓起勇氣講了這些事情，如果被秋後算帳，那就是我們對他們的保護不足，這個就是大家應該要檢討的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:34:07.919571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:34:41.062429+08:00","text":"所以我比較具體建議，第一個就是，的確這次你們時間也很壓縮，本來應該是二個月，後來說大家趕快，所以變一個月嘛，過程的確也是有些瑕疵可以改進的，所以你們答應的就是要去提你們的檢討，未來類似這樣的調查，你們的調查機制就是應該要檢討，這個我想你們應該要做，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:34:41.362429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:34:44.219571+08:00","text":"這個是第一點，一定要做。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:34:44.519571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:34:52.805286+08:00","text":"然後第二個，當時我記得部長也有說，如果有新事證就重啟調查，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:34:53.105286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:35:04.248143+08:00","text":"包括時代力量有開記者會，有受害人出來說「我都沒有被調查」，那那個新事證也應該要重新調查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:35:04.548143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:35:31.119571+08:00","text":"那一個部分是不是昭姿委員可以……就是你要求要調查的部分，針對新事證你們應該要調查，還有的確在你們的調查報告，當時講的時候，的確你們的問卷裡面，有人有提到說曾經什麼，但那個你們就lost掉了，沒有再往下追查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:35:31.419571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:35:42.562429+08:00","text":"所謂新事證重新調查，我覺得給衛福部時間了，大家希望的是不要有受委屈的同仁沒有被看見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:35:42.862429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:36:00.291000+08:00","text":"針對那一些曾經有表達說，曾經有過的或是頻率比較高的，是不是可以有什麼方法，部長讓同仁安心，知道還是可以持續，不是這件事情到此告一段落。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:36:00.591000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:36:16.876714+08:00","text":"如果持續有新事證，持續有同仁覺得有委屈沒有被受理，這個是一直開放的，門沒有關，然後持續，如果有新的，你必須承諾委員會會繼續調查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:36:17.176714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:36:27.462429+08:00","text":"我覺得昭姿委員是很站在員工的立場，想要讓真相更清楚，這個我覺得是不是可以去做。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-01-02T11:36:27.762429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:36:44.619571+08:00","text":"至於主秘的人事案，我想部長你也聽到了大家的疑慮跟擔心，這個部分看你們在職權上面是不是可以做什麼處理，我具體這樣建議，那看到時候……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:36:44.919571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:36:46.348143+08:00","text":"謝謝王委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:36:46.648143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:37:04.648143+08:00","text":"剛剛你一直在強調新事證，但是我今天早上的質詢一直在告訴大家，我明明有看到很多的東西，大概有三成的人，但是都隻字未提，就是這麼多調查的東西。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:37:04.948143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:37:39.519571+08:00","text":"我今天只是先以主秘一個案例為例，如果你的調查本身充滿了瑕疵，140個人的問卷裡面，不同的問題都有三成以上說他「曾經」、「經常」或「總是」，都有提到，但是這個部分你們都不提，最後訪問了17個，也不知道怎麼找的，然後15個人幫他講話，那2個人其實又講了很多很清楚的話，這些都沒有再報，答案就說未霸凌。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:37:39.819571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:37:55.533857+08:00","text":"所以這個新事證，我要講一下，他有調查到的都跟勞動部第一次一樣，其實勞動部第一次已經有點到很多東西，但是他的結論不太符合。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:37:55.833857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:38:05.262429+08:00","text":"我希望我今天提出方法學的問題，或是你取樣的問題，那個部分一定要一併處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:38:05.562429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:38:15.276714+08:00","text":"不是說新的，你原來舊有的都沒有處理好，你怎麼就說新的，新的定義是包括這個喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:38:15.576714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:38:20.433857+08:00","text":"就是原有的事實你要重新再檢驗一次嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:38:20.733857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:38:21.733857+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:38:22.033857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:38:31.462429+08:00","text":"就是原有的事實再重新檢驗一次，因為你也說過，如果我們不滿意可以再提出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:38:31.762429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:38:36.905286+08:00","text":"我是為了員工，因為你的員工寫出這些東西。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:38:37.205286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:38:44.348143+08:00","text":"你管理的衛福部，如果大家都士氣好，不是大家就會做得好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:38:44.648143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:39:02.933857+08:00","text":"有關這部分，因為主秘牽涉到當事人，這個資料怎麼保護我覺得很重要，因為員工都跟我講說他們怕秋後算帳，我不是唸了一、二十句他們寫的話給你們看嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:39:03.233857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:39:16.948143+08:00","text":"他們都怕秋後算帳，說我還在職所以不敢講，都寫出來，我剛剛有一一唸給你們聽，你怎麼保證他永遠看不到這份報告？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:39:17.248143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:39:23.819571+08:00","text":"因為他的權責裡面就有一項，他負責機密文件的管理啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:39:24.119571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:39:30.119571+08:00","text":"要他一輩子永遠都看不到嘛，這樣員工才敢講話啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2025-01-02T11:39:30.419571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:39:37.562429+08:00","text":"對啦，是不是你們……2個月以內，你給昭姿委員看一下，這樣好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2025-01-02T11:39:37.862429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:39:40.148143+08:00","text":"這個案子先就這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:39:40.448143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:39:55.305286+08:00","text":"剛剛真的很感動啦，大家為了把這件事情做得更好，將來能夠更好，我個人真的覺得很感動，而且也幫臺灣把整個工作環境弄好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:39:55.605286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:39:57.033857+08:00","text":"你的部門耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:39:57.333857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:39:58.762429+08:00","text":"你的員工耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:39:59.062429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:40:08.776714+08:00","text":"一定，第一個我保證，絕對不會有任何秋後算帳的嫌疑，我可以在這邊下令馬上成立……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:40:09.076714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:40:11.648143+08:00","text":"但是你要設立機制啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:40:11.948143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:40:23.662429+08:00","text":"你不會……你說不定馬上又升官了，下面你的保證，衛福部又不知道誰來接，你都升官了，然後要怎麼處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:40:23.962429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:40:25.676714+08:00","text":"你要有個機制……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2025-01-02T11:40:25.976714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:40:31.976714+08:00","text":"部長說的我也很感動，部長也不會秋後算帳，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2025-01-02T11:40:32.276714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:40:35.705286+08:00","text":"文字趕快弄出來，這樣好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2025-01-02T11:40:36.005286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:40:39.148143+08:00","text":"OK，好，部長讓我們很感動。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:40:39.448143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:40:44.305286+08:00","text":"好啦，人事處處長，你再唸一次，不要再吵了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2025-01-02T11:40:44.605286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:40:52.605286+08:00","text":"召委，這個案子先等一下，待會回來處理，文字讓他們先對一下，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2025-01-02T11:40:52.905286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:41:09.762429+08:00","text":"第一段第4行的「為」要改成「未有」的「未」，不是「因為」的「為」；然後第三段改為「爰提案要求衛福部應檢討此次調查缺失，並於2個月將檢討報告送衛環委員會」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:41:10.062429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:41:15.776714+08:00","text":"檢討之後會有新的整理嘛，會有新的報告出來吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:41:16.076714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:41:17.076714+08:00","text":"你檢討……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2025-01-02T11:41:17.376714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:41:32.233857+08:00","text":"檢討報告的範圍一定會包含兩位委員今天給我們的指導，譬如問卷，還有什麼方法等等，這部分我們都會概括在這份報告裡面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:41:32.533857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:41:42.819571+08:00","text":"檢討後通常有一些動作，不是說檢討我們這邊沒弄好就結束了，檢討後要有一些動作啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2025-01-02T11:41:43.119571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:41:45.119571+08:00","text":"好啦，好，我們承諾……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:41:45.419571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:41:46.848143+08:00","text":"部長，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:41:47.148143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:41:50.862429+08:00","text":"你檢討，你不覺得你沒有問完全……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2025-01-02T11:41:51.162429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:41:52.305286+08:00","text":"好、好，可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:41:52.605286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:41:57.748143+08:00","text":"要問完全然後改善，就是要有行動的改善嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2025-01-02T11:41:58.048143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:42:02.048143+08:00","text":"可以，就是「檢討及改善策略」，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2025-01-02T11:42:02.348143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:42:03.776714+08:00","text":"好，「改善措施」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:42:04.076714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:42:08.076714+08:00","text":"那個不是改……就是措施要去執行的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2025-01-02T11:42:08.376714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:42:12.376714+08:00","text":"是啊，「改善措施」，措施就是執行的。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:42:12.676714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:42:14.676714+08:00","text":"然後請您繼續唸。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2025-01-02T11:42:14.976714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:42:26.405286+08:00","text":"報告委員，對不起，我再稍微重複一下，就是改為「二個月內將檢討及改善措施報告送衛環委員會」。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:42:26.705286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:42:33.276714+08:00","text":"那個保證當事人不會看到的部分，部長，你是怎麼保證法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:42:33.576714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:42:39.862429+08:00","text":"就是讓他免於秋後算帳，大家都知道，他以後會看到啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:42:40.162429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:42:47.305286+08:00","text":"其實人事處處長已經講過很多次了，這個絕對不會給當事人……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:42:47.605286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:42:49.033857+08:00","text":"他的位階在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:42:49.333857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:42:55.333857+08:00","text":"這個位階他只是整理資料而已，說實在的，那相關的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:42:55.633857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:43:00.776714+08:00","text":"不是、不是，主秘的職權，他可以看，主秘的職權……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:43:01.076714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:43:02.505286+08:00","text":"主秘的職權……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:43:02.805286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:43:07.662429+08:00","text":"我已經show給你看了，你自己訂的啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:43:07.962429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:43:15.676714+08:00","text":"那是這樣寫，但是人事只要有牽涉到自己本身的，即使……就是不可能……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:43:15.976714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:43:17.405286+08:00","text":"終身嗎？絕對……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-01-02T11:43:17.705286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:43:20.276714+08:00","text":"終身不能看嘛，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:43:20.576714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:43:25.719571+08:00","text":"這是制度的問題，這是國家制度的問題，不會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-01-02T11:43:26.019571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:43:27.019571+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:43:27.319571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:43:30.748143+08:00","text":"好啦，那這樣就照修改後通過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:43:31.048143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:43:35.048143+08:00","text":"第四案，快一點，陳菁徽，這是你的案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:43:35.348143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:43:39.348143+08:00","text":"快點，第四案，行政單位有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭專門委員威中","start":"2025-01-02T11:43:39.648143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:44:12.219571+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，針對陳委員的提案，因為剛剛部長跟邱委員報告就是說三個月，所以我們建議提案後面倒數第3行開始改為「特決議衛福部應限期於三個月內，啟動研議醫師性騷擾行為揭露平台建置程序」就是把「二」改成「三」，「完成」改成「研議」，然後最後把「作業」改成「程序」，就是「建置程序」。可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:44:12.519571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:44:15.662429+08:00","text":"好，第四案就照修改後通過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:44:15.962429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:44:17.105286+08:00","text":"來，第五案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭專門委員威中","start":"2025-01-02T11:44:17.405286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:44:45.405286+08:00","text":"第五案就是針對陳委員所說的「應限期於二個月內完成該類」，所以我們建議把它刪掉，希望將格局拉大一點，就是完成遺傳性及罕病指定檢驗機構之審查作業及精進檢討，不要一直聚焦在這麼小的範圍裡面，我們希望把整個格局範圍拉大。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2025-01-02T11:44:45.705286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:44:49.705286+08:00","text":"那您應該知道現在這個很缺人？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2025-01-02T11:44:50.005286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:44:54.005286+08:00","text":"好，可以，謝謝，依照修改的。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭專門委員威中","start":"2025-01-02T11:44:54.305286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:45:28.019571+08:00","text":"好，就是「應限期於二個月內完成遺傳性及罕病指定檢驗機構之審查作業精進及檢討」，就是我們希望把格局拉大，把剛剛前面陳委員已經提過的有關遺傳性及罕病指定檢驗機構之臨床細胞檢驗這一類，我們把前面這個標題再把它往下拉，我們希望就整體來檢討，不是只有針對這個部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2025-01-02T11:45:28.319571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:45:31.176714+08:00","text":"但是還有書面報告喔。有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭專門委員威中","start":"2025-01-02T11:45:31.476714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:45:47.762429+08:00","text":"好，我再重新唸一次「應限期於二個月內完成遺傳性及罕病指定檢驗機構之審查作業精進及檢討，俟後並向本院衛環委員會提交書面報告。」","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2025-01-02T11:45:48.062429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:45:49.491000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。好啦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:45:49.791000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:45:56.933857+08:00","text":"好，臨時提案全部處理完畢，那我們現在休息8分鐘就好了。休息？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2025-01-02T11:45:57.233857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:45:58.233857+08:00","text":"不要啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2025-01-02T11:45:58.533857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:45:59.533857+08:00","text":"拜託啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2025-01-02T11:45:59.833857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:46:02.405286+08:00","text":"你讓我講完再休息啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:46:02.705286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:46:04.419571+08:00","text":"我要上廁所啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2025-01-02T11:46:04.719571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:46:05.719571+08:00","text":"不要啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2025-01-02T11:46:06.019571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:46:09.733857+08:00","text":"要上廁所的人自己去上廁所啦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:46:10.033857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:46:13.176714+08:00","text":"好啦，不然5分鐘，就休息5分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:46:13.476714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:46:20.619571+08:00","text":"再跟委員會報告，在牛煦庭質詢完畢後，我們休息20分鐘吃便當。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:46:20.919571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:46:32.062429+08:00","text":"因為全部的人都要來問啦，你不要看今天登記的人好像不多，可是大家都要來，大家都磨刀霍霍。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:46:32.362429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:46:33.505286+08:00","text":"休息（11時39分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:46:33.805286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:46:35.519571+08:00","text":"繼續開會（11時47分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:46:35.819571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:46:37.533857+08:00","text":"現在繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T11:46:37.833857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T11:46:40.119571+08:00","text":"請林淑芬委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}