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勞動部部長有請"},{"start":14.506,"end":40.76,"text":"這一樣剛剛雖然今天的主題當然是已經從公部門的霸凌事件往外擴散但我覺得本質上勞動部的這個問題不能就這麼算我們還是要方方面面來做一個檢討我今天要跟你討論的事情是剛剛其實王宏威委員其實有質詢到除了說適用職安法之外我們也要考量公部門這樣的特殊性然後針對這些特殊性的狀況去對症下藥才能夠系統性的解決這樣子的一個問題我今天想要跟你討論一下烤雞這個制度的概念"},{"start":41.86,"end":70.583,"text":"2024年2月5號全序部推出公務員考積法修正案然後第7條的說明欄裡面有表示法律沒有明定考積等次人數比例實務上大概是75%是假等因此如果列了已等它就會被解讀成為表現比多數人差當然也會跟年終獎金等等有關本期認為考積制度是公務員霸凌事件裡面其中一個不太被重視但我認為其實是關鍵的因素因為公務員的升遷跟獎金其實跟他的考積都是密切相關的"},{"start":71.343,"end":92.998,"text":"而烤雞制度某種層面來講它是一個不對等的權力結構基本上是主管向下評鑑所以如果你的上頭的長官掌握了烤雞的生殺大權的時候發生了這麼多奇奇怪怪的事情很多的基層公務員選擇沉默忍耐或者是逢迎拍馬其實大家就不那麼意外了以北分署霸凌事件為例這個謝宜榮面對部署"},{"start":95.299,"end":121.848,"text":"他本人的囂張跋扈那有直屬烤雞權的長官發展署署長蔡孟良對不對然後謝怡榮處理蔡孟良叫向上管理叫逢迎拍馬那當然嘛就航卸一氣然後讓真正基層那個最基層沒有辦法經營的被壓迫那常常會有這樣的一個狀況我講了這樣的一個事情你部長到目前為止你覺得烤雞會不會變相的成為公部門職場霸凌的這種幫兇或者是作案的工具"},{"start":123.427,"end":152.706,"text":"因為確實考機的制度其實是在這個公務員考機法裡面那這部分其實是在考試院的主管之下那當然勞動部當然我們要我們就只是反映勞動部的勞動部的公務員其實我們也當然適用考機法可是我其實並不敢說這個只要是打一等就一定是職場霸凌我沒有講說打一等職場霸凌是說考機這件事情"},{"start":153.146,"end":175.567,"text":"是讓很多基層公務員有冤屈不敢主動去講他就變相成為了助長霸凌的一個催化劑一個因素我的問題是這樣的所以其實我現在講的可能也不是只是公務員就是說因為在很多職場都有相關的考級跟平和或平和的制度這是跟每一個事業單位他的管理的制度有關係"},{"start":176.408,"end":193.389,"text":"你回答問題就好了嘛就是說這件事情會不會間接的會去助長霸凌或者是讓受害人有志難生會不會嘛有沒有這樣的可能我覺得應該是要從怎麼保障受害的人他的發聲或申訴要完全的保證跟保護他的這個角度"},{"start":193.709,"end":212.44,"text":"但我不能說只要這樣講下去的話變成說只要有相關的管理制度上對下的管理制度都可能會變成間接因素這樣這個推論我覺得就會推太大會推太多了推太多了沒關係本期一週前我曾經請勞動部提供勞力發展署相關人的考積列表"},{"start":213.56,"end":226.828,"text":"結果勞動部是怎麼回應呢 說這個是個人隱私我們還是別提供為好這個今天這件事情很有可能跟這802有間接相關所以說我認為這個是不單單只有隱私的問題部長你知道謝宜榮當2023的考機是什麼等次嗎你會不會好奇然後想去研究一下"},{"start":232.25,"end":261.599,"text":"我不知道但是因為確實烤雞真的是涉及個人隱私你是不知道還是不想知道不是我今天提了這個問題之後你會不會想要去了解一下你說謝宜榮嗎對我可以了解一下但是我剛剛回應的事情是說因為我原來跟我們索取這個烤雞的部分對又是個資法嘛這個很常見沒關係因為這真的是涉及到這部分但我就想問部長你會不會想要去了解一下不管是謝宜榮也好蔡夢良也好他們這些人的烤雞是什麼狀況我可以來了解一下"},{"start":262.559,"end":291.879,"text":"我認為你應該了解因為2023年我實在是2023年除了這個事件發生就讓這個基層公務員痛不欲生之外這個2023年的離退人數還是往年的兩倍就各方各面來講領頭長官在管理這個單位的時候把他搞成這樣就我們看到的資訊從2023的年初開始確實離任跟退職的人數是增加的你今天還沒有了解我知道但是如果他這樣子的狀況還打夾等你覺得公平嗎"},{"start":294.4,"end":310.943,"text":"我們可能要來了解一下原因是什麼這就是本席為什麼今天講說為什麼我想要去了解我要去調這個考積的資料原因當然你今天可以講說因為個資的關係所以我們就不便提供一大堆這樣有的沒的但是他講的對不起但是我要問的就是你至少作為部長我希望你去了解一下"},{"start":311.403,"end":325.728,"text":"這些現在事後被認定為霸凌的兇手這一群人他們的烤雞是什麼而且不只是他們的烤雞在這個就業安定基金的不當支出裡面鄭豐志主任的烤雞是什麼對不對人事調動率大幅上升人事室的烤雞是什麼"},{"start":326.768,"end":353.832,"text":"我希望考機制度要回歸正常因為公部門的文化其實大家都清楚有的是輪流啦有的是怎麼樣然後有些就被不當濫用這是機制要檢討當然也不是純粹就是你們勞動部要檢討因為你剛剛講嘛這是考試院主管這當然是另外一個層面的問題但我希望部長你在了解這樣的公部門霸凌案的時候除了這些機制的完善之外比如說保護吹哨者我不要讓他被清算這是你剛剛想要強調的重點這本席完全理解我自己覺得可能要從這個角度但是我今天"},{"start":354.232,"end":382.229,"text":"提這個質詢的用意就是提醒你啊考機很有可能是變相助長這件事情的幫兇請你針對勞動部其他部位我認為也一樣但今天是因為這是未還委員會的質詢嘛請你針對勞動部的這個考機的部分來做一個徹底的改革跟了解先了解會不會在明明施政荒鄉走板的情況下考機還是因為傳統也好或是因為奇怪的壓力或者是關係也好並沒有辦法如實顯現考機制度的功能"},{"start":383.49,"end":403.68,"text":"我當然希望考積跟他同仁失職的表現之間是有很明確的對應我給你一點時間但我希望你去了解之後你能夠有一個報告回復立法院一個報告這些人的考積狀況到底是怎麼樣你的這樣子的一個制度的方案有沒有改善跟精進的必要"},{"start":403.8,"end":425.885,"text":"我先來了解剛剛委員講的這幾位他的這個考積的狀況因為萬一這些人做了這麼誇張的事情還是打假等本席強烈主張你應該摧毀他們的年終獎金這樣這才是各個各個部門各個單位用強而有力的方式來整治這件事情才能彰顯政府打擊霸凌的決心啦好我給部長一點時間了解好不好麻煩部長儘速提供相關的資料回覆可以嗎謝謝好辛苦了謝謝謝謝林委員謝謝部長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:31:02.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:31:03.647000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請勞動部部長。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-01-02T12:31:03.647000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T12:31:13.527000+08:00","text":"牛委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:31:13.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:31:22.972000+08:00","text":"雖然今天的主題已經從公部門的霸凌事件往外擴散，但我覺得本質上，勞動部的這個問題不能就這麼算了，我們還是要方方面面地檢討。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:31:22.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:31:36.098000+08:00","text":"我今天要跟你討論的事情其實剛才王鴻薇委員也有質詢到，除了適用職安法之外，我們也要考量公部門的特殊性，然後針對這些特殊性的狀況去對症下藥，方能系統性的解決這樣子的問題。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:31:36.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:31:38.740000+08:00","text":"我今天想跟你討論一下考績這個制度的概念。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:31:39.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:31:58.355000+08:00","text":"2024年2月5號，銓敘部推出公務人員考績法修正草案，在第七條的說明欄裡面有表示法律沒有明定考績等次人數比例，實務上大概75%是甲等，因此如果某人被列了乙等，就會被解讀為表現比多數人差，當然也會跟年終獎金等等有關。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:31:58.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:32:27.155000+08:00","text":"本席認為考績制度是公務員霸凌事件裡面其中一個不太被重視，但我認為其實是關鍵的因素，因為公務員的升遷跟獎金其實跟他的考績都是密切相關的，而考績制度某種層面來講，它是一個不對等的權力結構，基本上是主管向下評鑑，所以當你上頭的長官掌握了考績的生殺大權的時候，發生這麼多奇奇怪怪的事情，很多的基層公務員選擇沉默忍耐或者是逢迎拍馬，大家其實也就不那麼意外了。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:32:27.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:32:51.605000+08:00","text":"以北分署霸凌事件為例，這個謝宜容面對部屬時囂張跋扈，有直屬考績權的長官是發展署署長蔡孟良，謝宜容處理蔡孟良叫向上管理，叫逢迎拍馬，那當然就沆瀣一氣，然後讓真正最基層、沒有辦法經營的被壓迫，常常會有這樣的狀況。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:32:53.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:32:59.828000+08:00","text":"請問部長，到目前為止，你覺得考績會不會變相成為公部門職場霸凌的幫凶或者是作案的工具？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-01-02T12:33:02.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:33:11.594000+08:00","text":"考績制度確實規定在公務人員考績法裡面，這部分其實是在考試院的主管之下……","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:33:14.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:33:16.277000+08:00","text":"我們就是如實反映基層的需求。","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-01-02T12:33:16.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:33:26.943000+08:00","text":"當然勞動部的公務人員也適用考績法，可是我不敢說只要是打乙等就一定是職場霸凌，我其實……","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:33:27.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:33:39.814000+08:00","text":"我沒有講打乙等是職場霸凌，而是說考績這件事情讓很多基層公務員有冤屈不敢主動去講，它會變相成為助長霸凌的一個催化劑，我的問題是在這裡。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-01-02T12:33:40.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:33:53.567000+08:00","text":"其實我現在講的可能也不只是公務員，因為在很多職場都有相關的考績跟評核制度，這跟每一個事業單位的管理制度有關係。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:33:54.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:34:00.596000+08:00","text":"你針對問題回答就好了，這件事情會不會間接助長霸凌或者是讓受害人有志難伸？","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:34:00.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:34:01.076000+08:00","text":"會不會嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:34:01.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:34:02.097000+08:00","text":"有沒有這樣的可能？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-01-02T12:34:02.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:34:23.956000+08:00","text":"我覺得應該要從怎麼完全保障跟保護受害者發聲或申訴這個角度去看，否則這樣講下去，變成只要相關的管理制度有上對下的管理，都可能會變成間接因素，這樣的推論我覺得就推太大、太多了。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:34:24.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:34:24.936000+08:00","text":"推太多了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:34:25.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:34:26.037000+08:00","text":"沒關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:34:26.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:34:42.307000+08:00","text":"本席一週前曾經請勞動部提供勞動力發展署相關人的考績列表，結果勞動部回應說這是個人隱私，我們還是別提供為好，但這件事情很有可能跟霸凌案間接相關，所以我認為這個不單單只有隱私的問題。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:34:42.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:34:43.387000+08:00","text":"部長知道謝宜容2023年的考績是什麼等次嗎？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:34:43.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:34:44.808000+08:00","text":"你會不會好奇然後想去研究一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-01-02T12:34:50.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:34:53.911000+08:00","text":"我不知道，但是考績確實是涉及個人隱私。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:34:54.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:34:56.232000+08:00","text":"你是不知道還是不想知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:34:56.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:34:58.432000+08:00","text":"我今天提了這個問題之後你會不會想去瞭解一下？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-01-02T12:34:58.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:35:01.153000+08:00","text":"委員是說謝宜容嗎？對。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-01-02T12:35:01.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:35:07.155000+08:00","text":"我可以瞭解一下，但是我剛才回應的事情，是因為委員來跟我們索取這個考績的部分……","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:35:08.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:35:08.235000+08:00","text":"因為個資法嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:35:08.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:35:09.076000+08:00","text":"這個很常見，沒關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-01-02T12:35:09.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:35:10.656000+08:00","text":"因為這真的是涉及這部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:35:10.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:35:18.759000+08:00","text":"但我就想問部長會不會想要去瞭解一下，不管是謝宜容也好，蔡孟良也好，他們這些人的考績是什麼狀況。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-01-02T12:35:18.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:35:19.579000+08:00","text":"我可以來瞭解一下。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:35:20.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:35:37.691000+08:00","text":"我認為你應該去瞭解，因為2023年除了發生這個事件讓基層公務員痛不欲生之外，2023年的離退人數還是往年的兩倍，各方面來講，這些頂頭長官在管理這個單位的時候把它搞成這樣。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-01-02T12:35:37.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:35:45.276000+08:00","text":"就我們看到的資訊，從2023年年初開始，確實離任跟退職的人數是增加的。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:35:45.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:35:49.879000+08:00","text":"我知道部長今天還沒有瞭解這件事，如果他這樣子的狀況還打甲等，你覺得公平嗎？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-01-02T12:35:52.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:35:54.623000+08:00","text":"我們可能要來瞭解一下原因是什麼。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:35:54.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:36:13.985000+08:00","text":"這就是本席為什麼想要去瞭解、要去調這個考績資料的原因，當然你們今天可以說「因為個資的關係所以不便提供」，一大堆有的沒的說法，但是我要問的就是你身為部長，我希望你去瞭解一下這些事後被認定為霸凌兇手這群人的考績是什麼。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:36:13.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:36:20.887000+08:00","text":"而且不只是他們的考績，有關就業安定基金不當支出的部分，政風室主任的考績是什麼，對不對？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:36:20.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:36:23.728000+08:00","text":"關於人事調動率大幅上升部分，人事室的考績是什麼？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:36:24.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:36:33.216000+08:00","text":"我希望考績制度要回歸正常，因為公部門的文化其實大家都清楚，有的是輪流、有的是怎麼樣，有些就被不當濫用，這種機制就要檢討。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:36:33.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:36:39.241000+08:00","text":"當然也不純粹就是你們勞動部要檢討，因為你剛講過這是由考試院主管，那是另外一個層面的問題。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:36:39.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:36:49.490000+08:00","text":"但我希望部長你在瞭解這樣的公部門霸凌案的時候，除了這些機制的完善之外，其他的比如保護吹哨者不要讓他被清算，這是你剛剛想要強調的重點，對此本席完全理解。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-01-02T12:36:50.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:36:51.511000+08:00","text":"當然，我自己覺得可能要從這個角度著眼。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:36:51.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:37:20.209000+08:00","text":"我今天提這個質詢的用意就是提醒你，考績很有可能是變相助長這件事情的幫兇，其他的部會我認為也一樣，但因為今天是在衛環委員會提出質詢，所以請你針對勞動部的考績澈底改革跟瞭解，先瞭解會不會在明明施政荒腔走板的情況下，不管是因為傳統也好，或是因為奇怪的壓力或者是關係，並沒有辦法如實顯現考績制度的功能。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-01-02T12:37:21.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:37:30.354000+08:00","text":"我當然希望考績跟同仁實質的表現之間是有很明確的對應。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:37:30.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:37:41.660000+08:00","text":"好，我給你一點時間，希望你去瞭解之後能夠有一個報告回復立法院，包括這些人的考績狀況到底是怎麼樣，你們現行的制度方案有沒有改善跟精進的必要。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-01-02T12:37:41.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:37:45.461000+08:00","text":"我先來瞭解剛剛委員講的這幾位的考績狀況。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:37:45.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:37:58.524000+08:00","text":"萬一這些人做了這麼誇張的事情還是打甲等的話，本席強烈主張你應該追回他們的年終獎金，這才是各個部門、各個單位強而有力整治這件事情的方式，才能夠彰顯政府打擊霸凌的決心。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:37:59.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:38:02.265000+08:00","text":"我給部長一點時間去瞭解，麻煩部長儘速提供相關的資料回復。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:38:02.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:38:03.325000+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-02T12:38:03.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:38:03.725000+08:00","text":"辛苦了。可以。謝謝。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T12:38:03.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-02T12:38:03.885000+08:00","text":"謝謝牛委員，謝謝部長。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-02T12:38:04.385000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-02T12:38:14.099286+08:00","text":"跟委員會報告，因為劉建國委員希望等他質詢完再休息，肚子餓的人可以先吃便當。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}