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敬請各位委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":2193.331,"end":2200.696,"text":"好 謝謝 非常謝謝主委的報告我們繼續請交通部的副署長也來做一些報告好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":2209.757,"end":2226.284,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先生女士今天應邀致貴委員會就針對陸方開放大陸觀光來台具體回應及作為進行報告那敬請各位委員來指教首先在說明兩岸旅遊的現況陸方在108年8月1號暫停來台自由行"},{"start":2230.766,"end":2249.208,"text":"在1號陸方也分批恢復138個國家及港澳出境旅遊但迄今是沒有開放來台的團體旅遊及自由行在4月18號大陸文旅部表示將率先恢復不見居民到馬祖旅遊"},{"start":2250.069,"end":2271.306,"text":"並在平坦到臺灣的海上客運直航之後,恢復福建居民赴臺團體旅遊這是以附加條件的方式回應我方全面恢復兩岸觀光組團雙向交流的建議為了配合防疫,我方在109年1月24日公告履行社暫停接待大陸觀光團及組團"},{"start":2272.587,"end":2272.607,"text":"致詢議員"},{"start":2296.292,"end":2312.839,"text":"另外,陸委會在109年2月10日暫停小三通客運傳播往來,在112年1月7日小三通客運復航,後續循序恢復小三通客運常態化。"},{"start":2313.519,"end":2332.793,"text":"那我想在我方恢復兩岸團體旅遊的規劃方面那第一是陸委會在112年的8月24號會同交通部、經濟部公布恢復兩岸觀光旅遊及放寬入籍人事來台商務旅遊之相關規劃那是依照對等的原則循序"},{"start":2333.533,"end":2362.218,"text":"恢復兩岸團體的旅遊並以一個月為準備期是陸方的回應在確定實施的日期陸會前已經邀請相關的機關進行準備我方準備工作均與就緒原規劃113年3月恢復國人赴陸團體旅遊因為陸方持續不開放來台旅遊等等因素以損害國家利益經過跨部會的協商考量情勢的變更進行政策的調整"},{"start":2363.258,"end":2389.064,"text":"所以我們也責請旅行業在113年的2月7號起禁止招攬附入的旅行團那為了這個降低衝擊剩有三個月的緩衝期已經對於成團的這個旅行業於113年到3月到5月出發者可能可以出團那6月之後出發的團體可併置3月到5月或者是改往其他國家旅遊或者是退配"},{"start":2390.564,"end":2413.886,"text":"這想同步可以保障旅行業與民眾的權益我想兩岸恢復健康有序的交流一直是政府的一個立場為推動恢復兩岸團體旅遊陸委會在112年8月24日所公布的相關規劃是依照對等的原則循序恢復兩岸團體旅遊本部配合執行以上報告敬請各位委員執教謝謝"},{"start":2416.564,"end":2442.158,"text":"其他單位的報告我們請委員自行參閱並刊登公報現在進行詢答委員質詢前我們做以上幾點宣告本會委員發言時間4分鐘必要的時間延長2分鐘非本會委員發言時間是4分鐘上午10點半截止發言登記臨時提案的部分我們截止提出的時間是上午10點在本會委員質詢完畢之後我們來處理請問各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":2443.663,"end":2448.186,"text":"好沒有意見我們現在就請登記第一位的蘇巧慧委員來質詢好謝謝主席我們請邱主委還有我們的副署長請邱主委還有副署長謝謝"},{"start":2466.465,"end":2476.515,"text":"主委好 主委今天是0501 5月1號那我記得我們有很相關的題目幾乎一樣是在討論復入旅遊團停交的決策過程與後續影響評估也是主委來報告的嘛 那是什麼時候啊3月嘛對不對 03 06 差不多在一個多月前"},{"start":2488.587,"end":2505.856,"text":"那時候我們就是就張偉很用心用這樣的這個委員會的時間排了一場復入旅遊團的停招在你詳細的來報告過程旅遊和影響那時候你就很清楚的跟全社會報告跟各委員報告我們做這個決定的理由是什麼"},{"start":2507.036,"end":2522.087,"text":"我記得是兩個嘛第一個就是基於平等互惠兩邊的政策不管是在方方面面包括旅遊政策兩邊中國台灣都應該是基於平等互惠來執行第二個是在前不久的時候在0306之前"},{"start":2524.449,"end":2540.707,"text":"就是在我們做了這個附中停招之前最後壓垮一根稻草最後壓垮駱駝的稻草就是M503改變嘛主委我的印象沒有錯吧你的理由也是這樣對不對這是因素之一對嘛好那我想請問這樣還不到兩個月的時間請問這兩項理由有改變了嗎"},{"start":2544.891,"end":2566.43,"text":"現在氣氛有改變了嗎?改變了什麼?這個4月28號我們陸委會的這個新聞稿已經說明很清楚了我想大陸用這樣一個負條件而且限制區域這個完全不符合雙方所原來期待的對等原則我想這個陸委會的記者那個新聞稿已經說得很清楚了"},{"start":2567.27,"end":2575.254,"text":"各位這段期間你剛剛說的還是結果是它開了一個有限制的範圍旅遊但事實上如果以我們兩岸的氛圍來講沒有啊 戰機天天飛、戰艦天天繞而且連當時說是M503東移之外現在連W航線也通通都開啟了這只有變本加厲這哪有兩岸緩和唯一的緩和可能是上個禮拜由副總召帶著幾位委員去到了中國"},{"start":2595.683,"end":2603.332,"text":"然後拿回來了一些所謂的好棒棒的這些會台措施嘛對不對所以主委我再跟你確認一下我做了一張表格在比較中國跟台灣兩方面的自由行跟團客我們的比較看看對不對啦"},{"start":2614.244,"end":2618.588,"text":"我們台灣呢早就已經開放了附中自由行喔自由行我們是開的那中國呢這現在都還沒有開捏到現在他沒有開自由行來台灣啊現在這次他說啊我來開一個福建民眾到馬祖旅遊啦這是他所謂他將來現在可能快要做的事情"},{"start":2634.423,"end":2653.607,"text":"不然的話他現在是一個自由行都沒有啊好那台灣的團客是什麼台灣我們是本來已經做好了準備3到5月本來有這麼多人4千團10萬人可以附中了可是因為平等互惠完全沒有嘛所以我們才說先暫停那他現在說我又有條件推動福建民眾組團"},{"start":2659.648,"end":2660.189,"text":"我們新聞稿已經說明很清楚了"},{"start":2681.789,"end":2708.507,"text":"很清楚嘛但我覺得我這張表比你還要更清楚我覺得我這張表比你還要更清楚這哪一個眼睛可以看到這樣是平等互惠不過啦我是這樣覺得我覺得兩岸之間確實是應該要有善意的交流我覺得其實誰先遞出橄欖枝這個沒有關係只要是善意的堆疊其實對兩岸人民都是好事因為沒有人要看到戰爭嘛所以我現在是這樣覺得啦"},{"start":2710.049,"end":2723.726,"text":"副總召去換到了一個當時我們算過2019年一年是6500人到馬祖去玩我們用這樣的數字來算好了如果一個人消費一萬的話就是大概6500萬一年"},{"start":2727.29,"end":2734.335,"text":"一年6500萬對馬祖觀光的投資換到了三天頭版的新聞所有的媒體都在討論 立法院還不斷連今天都加開委員會討論他的政策 我覺得是很划算的副董真的厲害 真的我們要佩服他的手腕那我覺得基於平等互惠 我想建議陸委會和觀光局"},{"start":2753.388,"end":2776.981,"text":"我覺得我們也要,觀光署對不起你升格了,我也要建議立委會跟觀光署,我們是不是也同樣開放我們廈門的居民組團到福建,廈門組團到金門去旅遊,我覺得我們可以先從這第一步開始啊,而且我們還可以再加碼,我們連金門都可以組團,阿你有沒有遞出善意?"},{"start":2778.021,"end":2778.601,"text":"我想委員的建議會給未來的新任人選做很好"},{"start":2801.363,"end":2810.786,"text":"我覺得不錯啊我們基於平等互惠嘛他開福建居民最了解廈門的福建居民組團來廈門玩那我們就開馬祖不是我剛剛說錯了應該是他開福建居民最熟悉那一代風情的福建居民來我們的馬祖玩那我們就開馬祖的居民到福建組團去玩啊我們加碼我們金門也不錯啊"},{"start":2829.574,"end":2855.804,"text":"我覺得其實兩岸要有創新的思維這樣子善意互相堆疊其實路才能越走越寬而且我覺得我上一次就已經質詢過了我認為這個附中旅遊因為停照的相關國內業者要有配套措施這個我覺得時間的關係還來不及問你我希望這一點我等一下會有臨時提案所以希望觀光署這邊可以有更多的解釋謝謝"},{"start":2857.225,"end":2862.589,"text":"主席、各位官員、各位委員、大家早安、大家好是不是請邱太三主委也請邱主委張委員好"},{"start":2882.973,"end":2901.331,"text":"主委早安今天是五一勞動節那大家都非常辛苦來這個開會非常辛苦主委也非常辛苦那其實我們國民黨各位委員第一個當然覺得主委非常辛苦可是也對我們陸委會這三年多來將近快四年了他所對大陸方面的這個互動跟良好的互動"},{"start":2902.412,"end":2918.494,"text":"提出質疑可是本席又接時間的關係我相信大家對兩岸和平尤其臺灣經濟繁榮是一直在努力打拼首先請問這個主委的部分現在目前從平潭到臺北台中的航班有沒有可能復航"},{"start":2919.275,"end":2921.456,"text":"現在有沒有在討論復航的可能性因為要跟主委報告現在這個班機也在飛貨運也在啟動為什麼客運的部分為什麼現在要限制"},{"start":2939.227,"end":2962.038,"text":"我講客運這個涉及到原來就是有防疫的問題可是主委您講得非常清楚可是現在大家都沒戴口罩都沒有防疫啊第二個是到底客運量夠不夠的問題啦過去我跟委員講這個還是要跟你說清楚過去呢開這個呢大概大陸是海峽號我們這邊叫沒錯就是海峽號但是我們的利納輪已經收起來了因為根本沒有客源"},{"start":2963.413,"end":2964.293,"text":"我們都會做各種現實狀況．有在討論的嗎?"},{"start":2984.464,"end":3009.086,"text":"所以我們每次都會來跟各位報告說到底現在交流有多少?人流有多少?經貿有多少?那第二個問題針對我們過去一直來討論就是說限制大陸旅客來台人次每天2000人因為過去我們都知道在頂峰的時候那個大陸旅客來台灣大概都三四百萬人一天大概就兩三萬人現在只開放大陸旅客來台2000人有沒有機會把這個部分給開放?"},{"start":3010.727,"end":3030.461,"text":"我想從我們2010年開始開放陸客開始一開始就設定是應該是2000還3000人後來按照他的需求不斷的運作的結果增加到4000、5000所以我們也是一樣因為疫後希望能夠健康上去的交流所以我們用2019年的數字"},{"start":3032.742,"end":3036.063,"text":"這兩個都是有關於大陸旅客到台灣的航班跟旅客人數的問題那第三個我要請問主委主委你有對我正面的回覆"},{"start":3053.53,"end":3075.279,"text":"那第三個是不是可以取消5月31號台灣的旅客到大陸這個組團的進團令是不是可以取消因為現在大陸已經有遞出橄欖枝雖然這個橄欖枝很小可是還是橄欖枝好不好這個恐怕這個橄欖枝有刺喔那至於你提到的5月31號我想這個是新政府他們要去做決定的啦所以我沒有辦法在這邊代打"},{"start":3077.452,"end":3105.529,"text":"還有一個非常重要的問題因為之前我們一直在討論金下事件金下事件因為現在整個的新聞已經退燒了可是就我了解當時陸方的漁船上有四名的大陸籍的漁民當時四名都落水兩名已經救回來生還兩名罹難那我想要請問主委知不知道現在兩名罹難的人的遺體現在是放在哪裡在金門"},{"start":3106.397,"end":3130.282,"text":"對,所以這就是我現在不能接受,而且是很前在全國人民所嘩然的居然從2月14號發生驚嚇事件這兩名的遺難者的遺體現在還在金門那讓所有這個被害者的家屬我相信在陸方的被害者家屬是沒有辦法接受的因為我認為這件事情要有同理心啊從2月14號到現在我沒有發文給他,他不要領啊"},{"start":3132.103,"end":3159.696,"text":"我覺得主委你這件事講的時候要非常小心,要發言給他他不要...絕對是這樣子的,很簡單,因為檢察官就問家屬你對於死亡的原因,因為這個會涉及到後面所以我認為說第一個我認為說因為台灣的人民未來如果在大陸發生相對應的事情的時候,如果遺難者的遺體還是趕快發回去給遺難者的家屬對遺難者的家屬的心理的造成的傷害我可以幫你們安排"},{"start":3160.436,"end":3177.387,"text":"主委你上次跟我講說赴大陸旅行你也要我安排這次這個受害者家屬也要我安排也要我來協助安排罹難者家屬來理家屬只要他對死亡的原因有意見的話那檢察會真的2月14號今天是5月1號已經罹難者的遺體還算在金門我相信雙方要遵照這個"},{"start":3182.97,"end":3204.366,"text":"是家屬對死亡的原因不願意表示意見這跟我得到的資訊是不太一樣的我當然知道要怎麼處理所以他如果真的沒有意見領回隨時都可以安排好 謝謝主委的分享因為這個大家一開兩講應該很多人都不知道現在的狀況也都已經送回去了所以本席才要在這邊請出疑問對於家屬過多的干擾讓他對本來沒有什麼太大爭議的死亡原因他也要有意見"},{"start":3213.393,"end":3233.453,"text":"最後主席再多給我一分鐘的時間因為其實今天邱太山主委本來9點半就有事情要離開了其實本席對您是非常的敬重的因為你過去有擔任過你是一位名律師也擔任過多屆的立法委員也擔任過我們台灣的法務部長"},{"start":3235.835,"end":3256.284,"text":"尤其其實你對我們晚輩其實都非常的禮遇也常常跟我們一些經驗的分享而且你的這個政黨顏色其實是不深的所以最後我是不是給你一段時間不管是對針對陸委會主委的這個角度是不是給台灣未來的兩岸的政策及未來賴政府未來的兩岸"},{"start":3256.844,"end":3257.004,"text":"張志倫委員質詢"},{"start":3286.929,"end":3303.914,"text":"主委家屬不願意領回去可能會造成以後他們一些官司上的問題所以您剛剛這樣回應我又有一點失望雙方都應該要把這些爭議點給講清楚好不好謝謝"},{"start":3305.114,"end":3305.854,"text":"我們繼續請麥一貞委員來質詢謝謝"},{"start":3343.204,"end":3345.085,"text":"主席、陸委會、觀光署主席、陸委會"},{"start":3357.028,"end":3361.053,"text":"好,要請教我們陸委會,前陣子就是我有問到觀光的問題,我們的主委說中方要需要釋出善意,我們這邊的話才要去就是要"},{"start":3372.665,"end":3394.392,"text":"要對應所以我們台灣都要聽大陸的指令因為他釋出善意我們就我們不釋出我們就等就這樣變成我們的老百姓就要等等大陸所以我們要去勾夾大陸不是這樣子吧所以我們現在目前已經宣布說開放海空30個城市"},{"start":3396.332,"end":3424.034,"text":"直航跟福建到馬祖的觀光路線這樣看起來兩岸的觀光應該是有機會破冰這個時候我國的態度相當重要而交通部跟陸委會一直強調要有3億往來才能開放那麼我們中方已經釋出3億了我國的團客要去大陸是否有機會重新開放"},{"start":3424.914,"end":3440.992,"text":"先跟委員報告這個可能稍微有一點錯誤因為大陸目前在前幾天宣布的是指開放福建的居民到馬祖而不是30個城市直航到跟"},{"start":3442.878,"end":3456.949,"text":"第二 基本上我們在去年的時候我們就除了已經15個有定期航班以外我們還有13個可以包機的航點但是到今天為止都沒有人申請"},{"start":3458.307,"end":3479.412,"text":"是大陸沒有人申請還是台灣?我們這邊連台商也沒有申請因為我們也跟台商講如果以台商這個協會為中心的話所有在大陸的我們的國人呢他們如果想要包機回來那也是一個很好的方法方案嘛對不對但是到現在為止13個行點都沒有人申請包機"},{"start":3480.285,"end":3508.762,"text":"好,我們是開放什麼時候到什麼時候到現在有宣傳嗎?團友更多的知道嗎?去年就宣布了啊好,所以我們是有開放就是團客我們在議事的跟台商會長的這個所謂的餐敘或者是活動裡面我們都一再的告訴他們那我也跟好幾個台商會長講說就以你那邊做聯絡點嘛你譬如說每個每個月的第一個最後一個禮拜五如果所有在大陸的國人"},{"start":3510.523,"end":3518.207,"text":"那要回來的話以你這裡為聯絡中心嘛那你如果累積到一定的量你就可以跟韓國公司說就是報紙是有這麼說啦所以說我們已經開放馬祖福建的雙邊的旅遊但是我們中國人這邊也希望說來台灣觀光嘛所以呢就是很多旅遊業因為現在我們新住民也很多人考就是那個導遊導覽的人員"},{"start":3538.317,"end":3543.661,"text":"所以他們就一直說今天就沒工作了就是要來幫忙所以協助這一塊希望我們解除禁團令讓更多的觀光客過來的話我們才還有工作所以希望說這個部分大家是不是可以開放還有陸客有沒有說就是解除這樣子剛才我們的委員有問我們的"},{"start":3565.174,"end":3570.696,"text":"大陸到現在為止2019年8月1號自由行大陸的人士要到台灣來他那個禁令到現在還在第二個大陸縱使在去年開始開放他們的國人可以到世界各國或地區去旅遊138個沒有台灣"},{"start":3589.369,"end":3594.851,"text":"所以他們現在禁止他們的人到我們這邊來所以4月28號他們才稍微小額度的說福建的居民可以去馬祖這是他們第一次的開放所以他們第一次開放我們這邊也在開放嘛是不是"},{"start":3606.774,"end":3614.521,"text":"我想我們都相關單位在做相關的評估跟研議當中啦為我們自己的作法我們期待還是我們在去年宣布的24號宣布雙方對等來開放是最好我們希望的是全面性的對等這才有意義你如果在那邊支持"},{"start":3631.594,"end":3632.115,"text":"如果從統計數字上來看倒未必"},{"start":3647.037,"end":3653.321,"text":"雙翁如果真的是對付開放的話基本上雙翁的應該是差不多還有地方的旅館還有我們就是做導覽的人員他們都需要工作所以一直禁止的話真的是很多人都沒飯吃了沒工作很多旅館也倒了很多旅行社也倒了很多要去不斷的去鼓勵大家去考導遊"},{"start":3675.913,"end":3692.003,"text":"但是到最後是沒有工作所以這部分我們希望就是說我們的透過就是小三通還有說請主委說我們兩岸直航的開放有沒有說行程、時程"},{"start":3693.544,"end":3713.325,"text":"我們都一直在檢視我剛剛不是講了相關的單位不管交通部也好經濟部也好他們都會跟兩岸每一個階段的這個整體的變化我們會去做這樣的一個政策上的參考這個請誰來執政都一樣是是是希望就是我們說要開放用兩邊的話就是我們希望我們台灣"},{"start":3715.387,"end":3715.807,"text":"我們就釋出了"},{"start":3753.478,"end":3755.898,"text":"賴慧珍委員．謝謝邱主委．接下來有請高金素梅召委"},{"start":3772.071,"end":3773.333,"text":"請經濟處的葉處長,還有海基會的蔡副秘書長。"},{"start":3790.165,"end":3796.367,"text":"主計處在4月29日公布了110年家庭財富分配統計統計全台灣家庭貧富之間的差距已經達到了"},{"start":3815.015,"end":3815.516,"text":"主席主委"},{"start":3829.907,"end":3836.894,"text":"我想貧富的這個差距確實是各國都非常關注的我們大概可以看出幾個趨勢大概資本主義的國家貧富的差距一定比社會主義的國家還高"},{"start":3846.343,"end":3872.637,"text":"第二,全球化的結果,恐怕這個必然會加劇所以你是同意他的說法嗎?不是,這個基本上必然會加劇但是呢,當然各國採取的政策是不是有效或有用,我不曉得那我們大概可以看,相較於全球化的結果大概資本主義發達的國家,它的差距會越大你倒是提到了一個很重要的問題我不同意這是高度自由經濟發展的必然結果"},{"start":3873.497,"end":3873.757,"text":"您認為您家的開銷夠嗎?"},{"start":3898.503,"end":3909.318,"text":"當然坦白講每一個人的家庭情況不一定一樣像我這麼節儉的人當然是夠啦但是重點在後面我當律師的時候大概都是這個20到23萬之間因為你節儉所以夠"},{"start":3914.625,"end":3937.211,"text":"所以,您不向主計處公布排名後20%的家庭,它的平均負債是405萬。所以,我完全不同意主計處所說的這種說法。台灣社會的貧富不均,真的不是什麼必然的結果,它根本就是人為的政策惡果。我舉一個,台灣半導體的產業來講,"},{"start":3939.952,"end":3943.879,"text":"今年他們的產值是達到了新台幣5兆政府對這個半導體產業要電給電"},{"start":3947.574,"end":3951.376,"text":"政府給了他們所有的政策給他們所有的優惠但是獲利的80%卻是被外資拿走了"},{"start":3970.606,"end":3976.773,"text":"好 我們再回頭來看一下我們台灣的觀光產業按照2023年的產值我們是7500億然後根據交通部觀光局的統計觀光業的從業人力2023年是22萬4618人副署長 對吧好 麻煩你也上台一下 謝謝"},{"start":3993.25,"end":4019.416,"text":"這項產業大部分都是服務業就是剛剛麥玉珍講到的最基層也有這個導覽人員他們沒有得到像半導產業那樣的政府的支持他們經歷過疫情的衝擊他們期待政府能夠兌現選舉之前的開放大陸觀光的選舉支票可是呢又被民進黨政府跳票了民進黨政府一直在講"},{"start":4020.436,"end":4035.669,"text":"等待對岸的善意達到他所謂的對等尊嚴的政治訴求因此就不惜綁架了這個觀光產業把這些觀光產業的人當作人肉盾牌當作炮灰"},{"start":4036.289,"end":4061.06,"text":"但是這個被民進黨政府搞的一夜一席的觀光產業的背後是22萬個家庭的生計喔今天我聽說好像我們觀光產業的理事長也有來他們也非常關心今天召委排的這一次的這個說明所以為什麼那麼重要因為我剛剛提到有22萬個家庭的生計"},{"start":4062.821,"end":4085.187,"text":"這22萬人的聲音難道也是所謂的自由經濟發展的必然結果嗎我剛剛看到的這些政策您也同意我說有的時候是政策的問題當然不是我認為這是民進黨他們非常惡意的政策製造出來的貧窮惡果觀光的人口數觀光副署長在觀光副署長從我們2016年的44萬人降到22萬人"},{"start":4092.469,"end":4118.301,"text":"所以我們現在幾乎有一半的觀光產業人口的家庭可能淪為了主計處那個所謂的20%的負債家庭我們也看到非常多的新聞非常多的報導這些家庭根本是活不下去了所以我在這裡要呼籲我們的政府還有我們台上面的大官們我們真的不要忘記了我們的薪水"},{"start":4119.813,"end":4132.404,"text":"也有這22萬家庭繳出去的稅金所以如果我們的政府想要操弄善意而沒有得到對岸回應的時候你們的惡意就會讓這個觀光業的22萬個家庭"},{"start":4138.869,"end":4141.571,"text":"平復不均不是什麼自由經濟發展的必然結果"},{"start":4152.026,"end":4174.617,"text":"這是政府惡意操弄政策的結果當我們拿著所謂人民的這些血汗錢或者是看著人民已經要活不下去了這些人民他們是會憤怒的啦到時候他們燒起來絕對不是現在我們打到的什麼弊端什麼弊案然後什麼光電幫股票可以從他們資本額10萬現在到達這麼高"},{"start":4178.439,"end":4204.091,"text":"我想那會影響的是你們的政權喔好 主委我就兩個面向的回答了第一個我想任何一個國家他確實他必須會有他的產業政策也就是說他到底要發展哪一些產業那這個當然有得有失啦你強勢的你當然希望就像中國他認為他的電動車會強所以他高度的在補助電動車業其他的產業也一樣"},{"start":4204.691,"end":4218.687,"text":"所以這個各國到底他怎麼去決定我們對半導體產業也是特別優惠啊我不是經濟部,我也不是國歌會主委我當然同意在這個執行的過程中一定會產生偏差這個偏差怎麼再去把它調整回來所以我剛剛講到"},{"start":4219.628,"end":4245.546,"text":"所以我剛剛講到半導體產業他們有32萬人口但是獲利的80%全部都是外資不見得是我們本國的人獲利可是我們的政府卻給他這麼多的優惠藥店給電藥水給水然後稅金又特別的優惠所以端看我們的政府到底在這個所謂的政策上面是偏袒哪一方很顯然我剛剛以觀光業為主"},{"start":4246.727,"end":4266.724,"text":"我們的觀光業本來從平均有44萬人一直到現在22萬人我們少了一半然後這一半又因為沒有開放兩岸之間的觀光所以造成這些人又活不下去所以主委今天才會我排這樣子的專案來跟您來做交流啊我們是不是趕快要回傳來看看這22萬人的生計"},{"start":4273.029,"end":4290.796,"text":"有工作可以做是要大陸趕快放他的人過來啊他到現在才放馬祖而已啊一年6500個人一天不到18個而且只有馬祖地區你這次去應該是要求說那你應該給台灣這22人有工作這22人才感謝你"},{"start":4292.136,"end":4295.378,"text":"所以陸委會成立的目的跟宗旨就是希望能夠兩岸溝通"},{"start":4316.11,"end":4322.756,"text":"您作為這個位置最主要的就是好好去溝通而不是一直在這邊講說那邊不是出善意啊所以我最後我要大聲的講我們的民進黨政府包括主委您剛剛的態度你們口口聲聲一直說要等待對岸的善意我回過頭來我看到的是"},{"start":4341.072,"end":4341.232,"text":"接下來請張宏祿委員質詢"},{"start":4379.814,"end":4401.052,"text":"關於時尚網路委員,您要主委留下嗎?還是不用?好,謝謝。好,非常謝謝,謝謝主委。希望您保重身體,也希望您在卸下公職之後,能夠對兩岸的問題能夠更深入的來探討,跟做好的先鋒,好嗎?謝謝。"},{"start":4403.052,"end":4404.413,"text":"副主委跟副署長"},{"start":4424.79,"end":4439.486,"text":"我想先請問一下臺灣是不是一個主權獨立我們有自己的人民政府主權的一個政府是是一個政治實體對不對是沒有錯那中國呢是不是也是一個"},{"start":4442.977,"end":4465.456,"text":"國際上都這麼認同對啦我們就撇開政治啦我們先把這個講我們撇開政治如果這個兩個都是一個政治實體我們就像在商業的談判一樣互相不管你公司大或我公司小要合作要共榮是不是要對互相的條件能夠接受商業才可以做要平等互惠"},{"start":4466.254,"end":4468.136,"text":"我們當然是歡迎全世界的客人都到台灣來,包括中國大陸的客人"},{"start":4491.578,"end":4515.576,"text":"所以,簡單說一句,我們準備好了,只要你中國說你的團客可以來,我們馬上就可以接待了,馬上就可以處理了,是不是這樣?是,是,我們在去年的8月24號公布那個方案之後,就是主動的事出善意說我們都準備好了,那在9月底的時候,我們有全部相關單位的工作都做好了。"},{"start":4516.419,"end":4543.308,"text":"副處長 是不是這樣是 包委員 那我想我們在112年的9月針對這個導遊跟領隊 不管是要副陸領團回答重點就好了就是已經完成相關的訓練都已經訓練完成那比如說像那個緊急通報的這個窗口或者是說旅行社的這樣的資訊的更新我們在去年9月已經完成對 所以現在陸委會跟"},{"start":4544.568,"end":4570.634,"text":"交通部已經很明確的在立法院講我們台灣的立場我們就是都準備好了只要你中國開放我們馬上就可以接待了對不對對所以我們的立場是歡迎中國的團客來台灣對不對對沒錯嘛現在的問題是中國沒有開放是不是這樣"},{"start":4572.498,"end":4590.444,"text":"一直以來都是這樣那最近有說了一個小口就開了一大堆那個6500個人這個有開跟沒開一樣阿對不對你去人家一間大餐廳阿只給人家要一杯白開水阿你要這樣的餐廳你要開嗎有任何對方的回應我們都是樂見"},{"start":4600.594,"end":4617.803,"text":"樂見是一件事情瞭解的勝利跟我們原來預期的跟我們原來希望的差太多了我只有一個所以我剛剛的前提就是說要平等互惠他們如果開放多少我們是不是相對開放多少"},{"start":4621.392,"end":4630.186,"text":"這個應該不會有任何抵觸吧?不會,因為剛剛很多衛委員也提到就是說我們要同時兼顧凹棒跟硬棒業者他們的工作權益"},{"start":4631.696,"end":4632.677,"text":"英磅才是我們的重點"},{"start":4654.578,"end":4677.333,"text":"我覺得英邦奧邦都是重點你這種說法我也不同意這個都是重點只是說我說一個國家跟國家對等的談判你開放多少我開放多少我覺得這個是不是一個最基本的原則這個原則是確定的所以我就覺得說啦其實你們要說一句"},{"start":4678.374,"end":4693.398,"text":"我們沒有阻擋入客來台灣沒錯我們沒有阻擋是他們還沒開放是我做這個結論是 對不對正確正確嘛 對不對那所以這次要雙方去溝通嘛 對不對我們溝通其實持續都有在進行中"},{"start":4698.666,"end":4699.086,"text":"是,我們都準備好了"},{"start":4717.416,"end":4733.959,"text":"對嘛,所以我覺得很簡單嘛,要跟外界說我們都準備好了,我們就是,我們的態度是希望你來,是你自己,是中國自己設限不讓他來的嘛,對不對?對,是陸方在設限"},{"start":4734.48,"end":4753.359,"text":"沒有錯嘛 對不對所以我覺得這個是一個很簡單的要跟大家說清楚其實這個問題沒有那麼複雜啦沒有那麼複雜啦我們台灣就是已經敞開大門了是你中國自己把門關起來的你自己現在只開放一個小小的馬祖而已是不是這樣沒錯"},{"start":4754.64,"end":4770.345,"text":"對嘛 所以要說清楚嘛 讓台灣的人都知道嘛 要讓全世界都知道嘛 對不對中國是用這個當成一個手段 對不對 那我們台灣其實沒有這麼多政治 是你自己不開放"},{"start":4771.186,"end":4771.246,"text":"謝謝張宏羅委員謝謝"},{"start":4796.198,"end":4808.225,"text":"副市長別忘記你們準備是5月份要開放的後來是你們把它取消了所以才有很多人這個點怎麼都不講是不是好接著我們請李博業委員謝謝我們請李副主委還有還有觀光署副署長謝謝"},{"start":4828.71,"end":4851.598,"text":"委員好我們大陸事務委員會其實就是常常有跟這個大陸方面那做一些交涉那做一些談判相關的事務主要的工作就是兩岸的工作那所以對於對方的思維你應該也是非常清楚我來這樣講我這樣描述一下你有意見你可以回覆我"},{"start":4852.881,"end":4862.826,"text":"這一次428中國方面來開放福建的人那可以組團從平潭飛台灣這個叫做這個還沒開這個還沒有對"},{"start":4867.899,"end":4886.841,"text":"他4月28日宣布的這個是福建的人是福建到馬祖走小三通的船他的團客現在的條件是怎樣團客是要先我們開平潭他再放福建的人來台灣那個團體旅遊好他在想什麼他為什麼想福建"},{"start":4890.606,"end":4891.207,"text":"為什麼限福建?你認為對方思考什麼?"},{"start":4911.172,"end":4924.189,"text":"他們最愛講對等其實我們的對等也一樣那我們對等就是說我們開放台灣的團客那他現在開放準備開放福建的團客他是不是把福建跟台灣畫上對等"},{"start":4926.065,"end":4940.741,"text":"他們是有這過去的政策的規劃裡頭常常是有這樣的想法所以這個如果接受的話所以這個如果接受如果同意他是對等的話台灣又變台灣省了捏"},{"start":4943.402,"end":4965.328,"text":"所以這個不對等啦我們的新聞稿已經有對外講說陸方這一次的這個所謂縣條件跟縣區域這個就不對等了對 所以我寧可相信他是因為這一次因為我們國民黨黨團有十多位委員去到中國大陸遞出感染資所以給我們一個福建省的這個旅遊團"},{"start":4968.37,"end":4968.41,"text":"第二個"},{"start":4993.907,"end":5001.374,"text":"2023年以去年來講的話我們台灣去到中國旅遊的總人數這個要請觀光署這邊來做回應176萬那對方來22萬為什麼那麼少觀光署副署長請你回應"},{"start":5013.547,"end":5027.632,"text":"我想這個2023附入176萬就是包含所有人去到我們去的嘛我們去176萬那為什麼他們來那麼少那因為其實台灣對於去大陸的自由行其實以前一直都沒有進我們是開放的對不對沒有進過那為什麼他們只有22萬來"},{"start":5030.816,"end":5051.219,"text":"因為他們沒有放那個自由行也沒有放團體旅客所以是中國大陸方面他們限制他們的人來台灣對不對就是旅遊的部分這個是不對等的對不對因為以2019年那大陸的入客來台灣的話是有這個兩百多萬對兩百七十"},{"start":5052.133,"end":5076.021,"text":"所以疫情之後他開放了他到其他國家旅遊但是唯獨138個國家裡面沒有包含台灣他還限制這個他們的國人來到台灣旅遊是中國方面限制而不是台灣限制他們進來對不對我們沒有限制我們就是主動說我們做好準備了歡迎你開放入客來"},{"start":5076.903,"end":5100.206,"text":"所以我們今天就是這個目的其實要跟國人講得很清楚第一個我們沒有限制他們來第二個團客的部分其實目前是他們在限制但是我們都已經準備好了這跟我們預設的不一樣啊我們也以為經過這個交流之後我們也要跟這個副總召拍拍手結果"},{"start":5101.639,"end":5122.427,"text":"來的是開放這個去馬祖的自由行一年6500個人的自由行第二個用區域用福建省來跟台灣來對等要開放福建人組團用平潭來跟台灣來做這個團客的這個旅遊"},{"start":5125.372,"end":5148.441,"text":"現在的狀況是這樣對不對從對方宣布的訊息可以這樣解讀是 謝謝所以針對這一個不對等的條件的宣布雖然有一點點我們還是覺得很好對馬祖這邊很好但是對於這種不對等的把福建跟台灣想要畫上對等的這個"},{"start":5149.781,"end":5165.424,"text":"這一個政策的話我覺得我們還是要審慎我們還是希望用全部的這個觀光客我們都沒有限制啊用全部的這個團客來跟對方這個全部的團客來多做一些彼此的交流我覺得這樣會比較適當我們會堅持平等互惠這個原則謝謝謝謝李博弈委員的質詢謝謝這個副主委還有副署長繼續我們請劉徐庭委員質詢"},{"start":5192.674,"end":5208.234,"text":"好 這個謝謝主席齁 這個陸委會副主委有請有請這個李副主委 謝謝交通部也一起好不好 交通部好 我們有請周副署長"},{"start":5215.036,"end":5240.408,"text":"好 謝謝這個現在我們這個當初有這個禁團禁團令就是團客赴陸暫時暫緩開放這件事情當初2月7號的時候我們也曾經在這地方做過討論那當初交通部有講說有幾個問題第一個就是陸客還沒有旅行團還沒有來做開放第二個就是說M503的一個爭議第三個就是說整體情勢不利國家利益最後還有反間諜法這些東西請問交通部觀光署這些因素到目前為止有沒有改變"},{"start":5242.568,"end":5248.516,"text":"請問觀光署,出遊的人身風險是要自行評估的事項,還是需要政府管制的事項?"},{"start":5264.295,"end":5284.045,"text":"報告委員如果說是自由行的話那可能就要自己去要注意各種的一個安全因素那如果說團體旅遊他有相關的一個保險的一個機制有保險的機制好沒關係這個東西打詢做一個參考因為今天重點其實也不是在觀光署我現在來問這個陸委會的副主委"},{"start":5284.785,"end":5301.546,"text":"這法律上有個概念叫做同時履行抗辯也就是說簡單來說呢就是說雙方的這個契約一方位於他方為對待己父之前可以拒絕提出自己己父的權利這個法律用語聽起來很尖澀但是用簡單的生活用語來講就叫做一手交錢一手交貨"},{"start":5302.407,"end":5331.409,"text":"副主委了解這個概念嗎?也就是說買賣雙方對不對其實都可以主張一手交錢一手交貨可是實務上會發生什麼事?就我今天要去買早餐的時候要嘛他先把早餐送上來嘛要嘛我先買單先付錢他再準備早餐對不對不管怎麼樣都不太可能同時嘛錢出去早餐就來不太容易做到對不對所以說實務上在處理這件事情的時候很難所謂的同時履行一定要有一方先做嘛好先做所以其實也是要按照這個社會脈絡一個互信基礎來做處理嘛對不對副主委同意這樣的說法嗎?"},{"start":5332.335,"end":5346.753,"text":"嗯,是,是好,那現在齁我們今天來討論這個團客的這個問題嘛你說按照理論上的自由市場是不是應該大家全部開放對不對,理論上從自由市場的角度"},{"start":5348.522,"end":5360.88,"text":"先撇除這些政治因素或等等從自由市場的角度如果你講自由市場的對等其實就是不受任何的限制每個國家對於自己旅行社管理是有他自己的權限"},{"start":5364.025,"end":5385.603,"text":"我們要一步到位達到那個完全互相開放客觀上是有困難的就像我講的沒有辦法突然之間達成這樣的問題那尤其是跟中國大陸大家的關係是非常敏感的特別在溝通管道暢通的情況之下大概也很難一步到位說兩邊一起講好然後一起達成但因為這個最近4月28號有釋出一部分的善意即便陸委會現在我剛剛聽你"},{"start":5386.743,"end":5407.55,"text":"回答其他委員的詢問的時候你當然會覺得說從我們官方的角度來看這個讓步跟這個讓利其實是很小的嘛 對不對但是算不算一點點善意我沒有說很小我是說跟我們的預期差太多了跟差太多就不如預期啦那你們現在打算怎麼樣回應這件事情"},{"start":5408.909,"end":5433.174,"text":"我們現在就是因為跟我們原來的規劃差太多了然後也需要有一些事情要進一步去釐清包括說他說要率先開放馬祖那所謂率先是指說先放馬祖後面還有金門還是說還有自由行等等那這個我們要進一步去釐清然後因為這個會涉及到我們接待的一些準備"},{"start":5434.454,"end":5460.894,"text":"好 那所以這個我們還在演繹當中我跟你講過去我們在討論的時候我們都討論所謂的同時開放也就是說同時履行那如果會講說你沒開我當然不能開嘛 對不對就陷入我剛剛講那個一手交錢一手交貨的僵局那能夠務實解決這件事情的方法是從小的地方先開始一點點善意換一點點善意開始有一點點互信基礎之後慢慢慢慢的來逐步開放這個我們願意尊重政府的做法但是不能沒有回應嘛現在就是說好像"},{"start":5461.714,"end":5463.155,"text":"這涉及到很多部會的選擇 大家都在跨部會的研究當中"},{"start":5480.748,"end":5501.171,"text":"副主委你這樣回答當然從站在你這個陸委會的本位啦你說啊我有好多機關對不對這些機關跟我一樣大我也要尊重他們的意見啊等等這當然從你的本位你要這樣回答我不會太意外啊但其實剛剛很多委員其實也關心嘛因為人家如果有機會來 對不對來是我們的觀光業是有商機的嘛而我們的政府機關在處理這種事情的時候如果他沒有明確的期程"},{"start":5501.932,"end":5527.547,"text":"然後如果沒有一個這個我要加速這個決心的時候那對觀光業來講當然就是打擊嘛就是負面的消息對不對因為簡單來講所以我們今天要的是有沒有明確的集成簡單來講我們剛剛講到說就是我們有關小三通或是團客到台灣我們都做好準備了所以陸方現在放馬祖所以馬祖的人要到福建人要到馬祖旅遊這個沒有問題這個也不用回應這一定是可以做的對"},{"start":5527.987,"end":5535.824,"text":"因為他現在是等於是他片面開放所以我講這是可以實現的但是因為現在各界要陸委會回應的不是只有"},{"start":5537.148,"end":5557.418,"text":"福建居民到馬祖這件事情能不能實現還有很多的還有後面的事情還有很多要我們回應這個就要進一步的去研議他現在說我先開放一部分但是他也提了要求如果這個海峽可以復航我可以再放一些人進來對不對這些都跟當初大家想像你開放我開放的這種很困難門檻很高的這種所以這個需要時間"},{"start":5558.699,"end":5559.159,"text":"我的意思是說"},{"start":5578.65,"end":5601.726,"text":"福建居民到馬祖的部分我現在就可以跟委員報告這一定可以做嘛因為我們說我們準備好了但是他還有其他的其他的要求嘛我現在就要問喔再一分鐘現在他們現在來不管你講說可能福建的量體不是那麼大或者說他甚至來馬祖那只是一點點一時一時而已但是都沒有要求我們要馬上開放對不對"},{"start":5602.947,"end":5619.905,"text":"所以其實還沒有走到那個互相開放的一個程度對不對所以相對來講你可以不用透過我們的旅行團要過去的這樣子的強度去做回應嘛那剛剛也有委員有問我覺得不是沒有道理你選福建、台灣會不會你一審對這個台灣我們又被矮化那我覺得陸委會我們的官方我們可以提條件啦"},{"start":5620.606,"end":5637.12,"text":"我們也可以提條件啊就我們不反對民進黨政府領導的官方也跟中國大陸做合理的談判跟交流嘛我們的意見是都會納入考量是如果你覺得說只開放不夠以至於我沒辦法換那開放多少才夠三個省五個省作為階段性的配套可不可以討論可不可以思考"},{"start":5639.307,"end":5659.794,"text":"今天我們都納入考量我就是跟委員報告因為現在今天是星期三那幾天的時間我覺得我們對這件事情其實是非常慎重兩岸的事情我們是很慎重所以我們正在演繹當中我就今天再透過這個詢答我們就做幾個提醒我們會盡快第一個說這是有機會可以做互相的善意堆疊希望陸委會可以把握這個機會第二個"},{"start":5660.774,"end":5676.511,"text":"我贊成民進黨政府也提相應的條件他只要能夠談即便國民黨民進黨一直以來很大的落差但是若可以談因為基於台灣觀光業的發展這個把它變成民生的問題你可以大膽的提出你的條件然後試著來做交流我想我們不會反對這件事情的委員會納入考量"},{"start":5677.452,"end":5691.003,"text":"那第三個就是時間要明確啦如果它的門檻已經比過去低很多的時候我們是希望政府有一個明確的時間讓觀光業者可以有所預期也有所準備好不好這三個目標希望部委會可以聽得進去謝謝好 謝謝劉徐廷委員的質詢也謝謝副組長還有副組委謝謝繼續我們請王美惠委員質詢"},{"start":5701.519,"end":5716.708,"text":"我們在黃建斌委員質詢之後,我們休息五分鐘,謝謝謝謝,感謝,我們感謝趙委,我們請副主委請你副主委我們,那個觀光署副署長周副署長,謝謝委員好來,早上好,大家好,在這兩天本席要跟你說"},{"start":5726.328,"end":5739.54,"text":"中國人要來台灣,是台灣反對還是中國反對來?你能回答一下?沒有啦,是什麼人反對啦?在一個國家啊?我說台灣沒反對,那反對是什麼人?他現在還緊急嘛,緊急他們的組團來我們這邊"},{"start":5752.079,"end":5758.041,"text":"疫情之後其實自由行的或是國人自己組團已經可以去了有有3月之後呢已經現在已經有4000團10萬個人有嘛齁是是"},{"start":5777.867,"end":5781.988,"text":"今天五月初一,我們是不是到五月底我們的團要繼續出團?繼續出團嗎?所以在這個總統府裡面,如果中國臨時覺得說,哎喲,這跟台灣做朋友不錯喔,就覺得賺錢喔,不要再求偏欠,我們賭錢過的時候,"},{"start":5804.273,"end":5805.254,"text":"準備好了,這句話應該是長久以來你知道要代一段話說的嘛"},{"start":5823.673,"end":5835.419,"text":"所以在你們觀光署說準備好了就是表示未來我們陸委會你如果認真拍拚去協商去說不一定會成的所以我們是觀光署準備好了的在這個環境裡面大家都說跟台灣人不要開放台灣人去中國出頭"},{"start":5852.745,"end":5864.874,"text":"在這裏我先要跟你說的就是台灣人都願意我們的台灣人去中國出頭但他對付台灣這個國家兩頭琴骨我們才會做出這樣所以剛才有很多我們的董事會說說是要怎樣可以讓我們台灣的"},{"start":5880.922,"end":5883.107,"text":"理行社也好、餐廳也好、很多飯店也有發動性外匯"},{"start":5889.082,"end":5895.245,"text":"另外每一個人都一樣,大家都想要生活、要經濟好一點所以這個問題的關頭是出在哪裡?副主委說一下還是在中國政府那邊中國政府嘛,在這裡面我說,若恨不養生,恨不養生的"},{"start":5914.173,"end":5919.855,"text":"我們台灣人要去中國出土,一天有176萬人,他現在22萬人,這樣對台灣人,敢有一點用膳,像你剛才說的,對等,我們根本沒有對等,在這裏面,本席剛才已經到現在要講四分鐘了,問題,你們中國人,"},{"start":5944.694,"end":5953.436,"text":"是要出國一定要限制他們要去帶一個國家嗎?他們是沒有自由的,要他們國家統一才可以出國嗎?是不是這樣?他們組團社可以去哪裡,它有規定的,帶團去哪裡都有規定。所以說,生活在這個台灣自由的國家,是要保存我們台灣的權利,"},{"start":5972.739,"end":6002.654,"text":"來．"},{"start":6003.752,"end":6010.46,"text":"因為現在是大陸那邊要幫忙做嘛,我們這邊本來就是說來哪裡都可以啊所以說,說來說去,說到四分多鐘,是中國不要他們進來,不是我們台灣人不要他們進來,這是最主要的關係"},{"start":6025.877,"end":6026.177,"text":"經濟經濟來經濟今天有經濟"},{"start":6040.331,"end":6059.686,"text":"處長,在這裏面你也有人在這裏面他有複代一下說他也管他來我們買文殿啦文殿是中秋節到有的啦你有遺憾到萬一如果禁告起的時候他再說他有被害的時候你要怎麼處理來?你有想到農民未來要領那個嗎?"},{"start":6066.699,"end":6075.462,"text":"檢驗檢疫的問題我們已經有跟陸方提過很多次應該要經過檢驗我現在就是說檢驗都說沒問題去到他們那裡都沒問題你有什麼防範措施沒有來?農業部還是賣他們藥的賣他們一個藝術的"},{"start":6084.931,"end":6093.879,"text":"農業部有透過WTO的管道還有兩岸協議的管道都有要求跟陸方溝通可是他們沒有回覆因為我覺得這裏面是怎麼的經濟他現在放一個主委給我們我們就要在那裡說要怎麼開放我覺得最不稀罕要讓台灣"},{"start":6109.787,"end":6109.807,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":6135.203,"end":6136.003,"text":"主席副主委"},{"start":6156.758,"end":6157.138,"text":"原來在過去其實"},{"start":6186.38,"end":6202.86,"text":"兩邊的旅客是有來有往在2019年陸方就說基於兩岸關係的考量所以就把自由行給關掉了然後這個團客也慢慢的減少因為他們的組團社一般"},{"start":6203.5,"end":6231.616,"text":"政府是可以給他做一些影響所以2019年的時候其實團客也慢慢在變少那疫情之後呢他就整個都關掉了那當然疫情之後呢我們也就恢復恢復兩邊的往來所以我們疫情之後對於我們的國人到大陸去呢並沒有做特別的限制那對於我們組團社去的部分我們就希望說是一個對等的方式也就是說"},{"start":6232.256,"end":6260.601,"text":"他們的組團社可以帶團體的客人到台灣的時候我們再讓我們的組團社可以帶我們的團體客人到大陸去這樣的一個規劃在8月24號我們就主動的來做宣布等於說遞出一個所謂的善意那這個事情到後來對方就一直在講說你們一定要先對組團社部分有一些就是我們去的部分他要我們先有一些"},{"start":6261.981,"end":6262.582,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6277.691,"end":6293.404,"text":"故事就是到了今年的1月就是剛剛其實委員有提到到了1月的時候他還是不願意放他的團體客人來然後甚至於還有很多很多的像503航線的啟動還有很多很多軍機這些所以我們才會"},{"start":6295.746,"end":6296.566,"text":"2019年中國片面的改變現狀然後中斷了中國的客人來台"},{"start":6315.535,"end":6321.199,"text":"不管是自由行還是團客都是這樣那台灣其實始終都是秉持著善意我們認為只要對等就來交流本來就是有來有往本來就是禮尚往來而且台灣人是非常善良的我們的橄欖枝從來都沒有停過我們都準備好了就是我們開放你開放我就開放你怎麼開放我就怎麼開放"},{"start":6336.73,"end":6357.874,"text":"甚至到了2023年台灣去中國的客人是176萬人那中國來台灣的只有22萬這是一個非常嚴重的差異非常嚴重的已經是一個非常不對等的狀況那甚至我們今年3到5月也有10萬人的團客可以到中國了嘛"},{"start":6358.294,"end":6384.559,"text":"那對台灣的觀光業當然非常不公平阿對台灣的觀光業想說我們的客人都到你們那裡去的結果你們都不來那導致台灣的觀光業不管是旅宿業餐飲業都想說這樣對我們真的好嗎那我覺得當然啦再來就是要講到說所以這一次的這個新的提案就是中國說福建他們要開放到馬祖那請問一下這樣是多少人阿"},{"start":6386.139,"end":6394.624,"text":"以疫情前的話是6500對講出來我相信副主委自己也很想笑6500人次"},{"start":6397.998,"end":6426.626,"text":"是啊而且是最高只有這樣子的人次喔所以我覺得我不知道說陸委會是怎麼看啦但我看到這個這樣的一個釋出的善意我會覺得說是一個笑話嗎怎麼會有點丟臉的感覺而且就是你要那你福建來馬祖那是不是我們也對等的開放馬祖到福建這樣就好了呢因為他們也沒有說福建可以到金門也沒有說福建可以到花蓮甚至也沒有說福建可以到澎湖嘛"},{"start":6427.626,"end":6429.17,"text":"甚至連傅坤祺總叫自己去中國討的他們說要幫花蓮帶來觀光結果連花蓮都沒有爭取到欸"},{"start":6436.784,"end":6458.301,"text":"因為一直到5月底的話我們還是組團社現在去我們是沒有限區域的啦到5月底都還是這樣那6月1號以後要不要做調整當然委員這個建議我們會做個考量好啊 我的建議就是說我們就是很對等啦我們本來都是我們就是非常善良然後我們都是保持著這種投桃報李的心情"},{"start":6460.202,"end":6484.768,"text":"對阿我們一直都是這樣所以就是如果好阿你福建來馬祖那我們馬祖也去福建阿就是這樣子就是可以互相相當然後如果那你們願意再加開金門願意再加開花蓮願意再加開澎湖好阿那我們這邊的大家也很願意來交流嘛是這樣我們始終都是秉持著善意然後也都希望對等的來交流完全沒有任何的偏見"},{"start":6485.948,"end":6490.05,"text":"那我想說最後啊還是要講一下說我想問一下我們這一趟這17位同仁到了中國回來之後有沒有跟陸委會來遊說要求開放平台的執行啊目前沒有沒有這個為什麼會這樣問呢因為這一趟只有看到記者會的訊息"},{"start":6509.02,"end":6509.581,"text":"繼續我們請黃建斌委員質詢"},{"start":6549.425,"end":6575.226,"text":"好 謝謝主席其實今天我們到場的官員除了我們本委員會的陸委會副主委以外好像就只有這個觀光署的副署長有到那其實今天有很多想要關於交通的問題想要請教不過因為觀光跟今天在討論的就是跟觀光有關係交通跟觀光是一體的那不過我就先就叫我們那個觀光署的副署長有請周副署長"},{"start":6580.686,"end":6607.089,"text":"委員好副署長好副署長那個520只剩下19天了那馬上就新的團隊要上任那我們的賴副總統也即將要成為我們的下任的新的總統那他在參選總統的時候有提出過觀光產業的六大具體做法這個一定是未來我們交通部非常重要的政策之一那我想請教副署長那個六大政策是哪六大政策"},{"start":6610.193,"end":6623.221,"text":"這個賴副總統的一個觀光的一個白皮書那我目前都會在引領相關的一個...副總長,我在第一次質詢的時候就已經有洩體的落行這次你又不記起來,這樣會被批判嗎?"},{"start":6624.814,"end":6649.63,"text":"這個重要政策你都聽謝提庫給你這樣本期在第二次質詢就有講到丟大面相那時候答不出來現在你還沒有辦法忙答出來其實就是觀光立國然後落實相關的觀光產業及這個把這些觀光產業的一個在地化還有這個吸引國際的觀光客各個市場我們要做吸引這個我們都目前都在淋漓當中"},{"start":6650.59,"end":6674.706,"text":"謝謝部長回答得非常好為什麼我會這樣說其實我們裡面有提到一個就是部部有觀光各地有觀光這件事這是一個很好的願景那期許我們未來各部會都要推動觀光讓觀光產業能夠打造當台灣變成觀光大國這件事情不過本席認為這一點有點困難應該做不到為什麼這樣講"},{"start":6679.127,"end":6707.077,"text":"你知道台東有一個很有名的一個旅遊景點在池上還有一個很漂亮的池上的那個稻米的大稻有一棵樹有一個很帥的男生坐在樹下喝茶那個叫金城武,後來有一棵樹叫金城武樹嘛是,很知名的景點那時候叫台東ICU嘛對不對現在變成台東ICU我們今天台東的觀光業要給我賠房了你知道嗎?已經進入交通病房的狀態你知道嗎?"},{"start":6709.217,"end":6736.169,"text":"其實我們的各個管理處目前在臺東有成立這個觀光圈那最近要開始的這個觀光業界其實還蠻吸引人的是 副市長本席跟你講一下為什麼臺東觀光進入ICU進入教育病房照道理說臺東在暑假熱氣球因為接下來臺東很重要一個旅遊的活動就是熱氣球嘉年華那以往的病房大概是八層到目前只剩下三層"},{"start":6737.509,"end":6741.572,"text":"地震造成的後果是民眾對於東部交通的不安全感"},{"start":6754.063,"end":6773.058,"text":"這個部分,我相信副市長應該也有收到相關的一些澄清的資料嗎?是,我剛剛有做一個說明,這個臺東熱氣球是非常知名,那我們也跟各個旅行社來做一個各市場的行銷,對,所以像那個義油網他現在承攬這樣的一個有啦,上個禮拜我們只跟陳董事長一起開記者會而已啊,本席只要本席"},{"start":6777.802,"end":6794.895,"text":"副長本席想要提醒的是說在前陣子臺東的旅遊業者才開記者會要求我們的觀光署來協助因為我們常常在講就是你不能用臺北人的角度在看地方花東本來就是一地的嘛"},{"start":6795.595,"end":6820.5,"text":"雖然這次地震災害對台東來講是很幸運沒有很明顯的受到災損可是其實它影響到的是像是火車、鐵軌的問題還有上個禮拜因為大雨土石流造成火車停駛然後原班車將像遣返一樣回去台北那個對民眾的心理其實是有影響的這個都是會對台東的觀光造成很大的傷害"},{"start":6821.56,"end":6824.161,"text":"報告委員因為這個涉及到經費的補助委員的意見我們會把它納入演議"},{"start":6851.35,"end":6855.205,"text":"這個都這麼久了為什麼本席會提這個呢?"},{"start":6857.683,"end":6883.832,"text":"這張提出說為了因應整個花蓮的這個重建提出了200多億的重建方案,對吧?阿副市長,台東你報分你要變多少?其實觀光署對於臺東的觀光一直是非常的支持我就問啦,我就問你台東有多少多少啦就是跟台東縣政府或者是說在地的觀光業者我們都一起來做一個行銷跟推動副市長,我跟你報告啦,副市長我跟你報告啦,臺東這次補助是零啦200億裡面臺東補助是零啦"},{"start":6889.611,"end":6890.662,"text":"是不是要去ICU啊?"},{"start":6892.95,"end":6920.708,"text":"其實我們觀光署對於台東縣的軟硬體其實都非常的支持所以本期才建議就比照2018年的時候的方式來補助你200億裡面一部分來協助台東的業者花東是硬體的花蓮不好台東一樣不會好就像花蓮發生地震台東第一時間跑去救災未來台東有需要花蓮也第一時間過來協助我們一樣的道理我們這時候就是拜託中央能不能夠來協助台東縣"},{"start":6922.189,"end":6947.886,"text":"這樣可以嗎?副主席其實我們現在在推的觀光圈就是花東觀光圈那委員的提議我們會來研議副主長 這個都是做過的案例不用研議趕快因為為什麼我會提到這一塊就是推到我們今天的主席主席有在講那個那個我們陸委會副主委有請李副主委"},{"start":6952.049,"end":6975.808,"text":"副主委為什麼要花這麼多時間跟副主長講這麼多的事情?其實台中很單純,我們的商業也很單純,就是主要以農業跟觀光兩個產業是吧?那我們也知道說當然我們不是說一定要靠陸客可是以目前來看最大的量還是在中國大陸的旅客這個消費族群來說那這幾年確實我們看到整個兩岸的冰點"},{"start":6978.13,"end":6978.29,"text":"那 部長"},{"start":7000.905,"end":7025.132,"text":"我有一件事想要問一下副主委啦好不好意思好謝謝主席我在用書面我只是希望請我們相關單位來協助我們臺東的相關的產業那未來如果說像之前水果臺東縣臺東縣政府可以用我們的勞欠影信黨用這樣的模式過去大陸然後讓他恢復"},{"start":7026.532,"end":7034.658,"text":"關光因為當然去希望陸方趕快把客人送過來這個沒有涉及公平﹖我說如果今天兩岸都還沒辦法破冰的時候各縣市政府可不可以這樣做我們自己加油可不可以"},{"start":7056.468,"end":7076.093,"text":"您是說去跟陸方呼籲嗎?對當然都可以啊都可以呼籲陸方趕快放陸客來如果他們願意來陸河城也同意就對了我們都準備好了各縣市都OK的謝謝副主委謝謝副署長謝謝謝謝建兵委員執行謝謝主席不好意思謝謝謝謝李副主委還有副署長我們現在休息5分鐘繼續我們的質詢"},{"start":7461.803,"end":7462.243,"text":"徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員"},{"start":7492.035,"end":7515.268,"text":"我想先請教一下陸委會陸委會在3月6號有針對附陸旅遊團停招的這個專題報告的第二個部分後續推動及影響評估的第二項指出關於兩岸團體旅遊的後續推動若對岸願意釋出善意兩岸的氣氛朝向良性的發展我方不排除提早進行適當的調整"},{"start":7517.009,"end":7543.754,"text":"在經過馬席二會跟我們國民黨、黨團、總召、富坤齊及我們一些立委大家共同的努力之下大陸方面已經表示願意開放福建省的民眾到馬祖旅遊然後等台灣恢復平潭的直航台灣的海上客運之後再進一步的開放福建民眾到台灣本島團客旅遊同時也宣布5月6號會開放北京、上海、成都、南京等20個城市"},{"start":7545.215,"end":7550.788,"text":"全程網上申請補發赴台證請問這樣算不算釋出善意?"},{"start":7552.773,"end":7577.174,"text":"當然是一個善意但是這個善意又有一些條件然後跟我們原來預期有很大的差距然後第二個講到兩岸請問你們本來預期是什麼當然是他們能夠全區就所有的各地的大陸旅客都可以到台灣來團體旅遊那小三通的部分我們是金門馬祖都希望可以到金門馬祖來旅行"},{"start":7579.135,"end":7598.926,"text":"我記得你們的報告是講說如果對方願意釋出善意的話你們會提早進行調整那現在對方釋出善意你們又覺得這個善意又不夠大那到底要怎麼樣才叫做有善意你們才能夠接受的幅度我覺得在這個部分其實既然是兩岸希望能夠破冰"},{"start":7600.547,"end":7611.603,"text":"之前一直在說等大陸提出善意等大陸推出善意你沒有選幅度不夠大不夠善意我覺得這樣子的話我們沒有選我們說跟我們預期有落差那現在跟你們預期有落差之後不能調整嗎"},{"start":7613.248,"end":7637.715,"text":"所以我們現在正在研議跟評估當中那還有後面講到這個兩岸情勢和緩但是最近除了他放陸客這件事情其實還有其他的兩岸事件還在發生當中所以這個兩岸關係是不是有和緩那這個也要我們做整體評估所以這個部分我們現在就是正在各部會、跨部會的研商當中"},{"start":7638.756,"end":7659.137,"text":"我再請教一下目前平潭到台灣的船只能載貨那載客在2020年的時候是因為新冠疫情的時候先暫停嗎那現在新冠疫情的影響其實已經結束了我們還要繼續禁止嗎可以載貨但卻不能載人邏輯上說不通嗎何時可以重新開放"},{"start":7659.718,"end":7683.43,"text":"其實兩岸的航點我們過去就有提到就是看實際的需求有需求的時候然後還有就是看整個兩岸情勢然後來做現在看起來就是有需求嘛因為如果我們把這個平潭的這個海上客運恢復直航之後福建的陸客就能夠來到台灣主船旅遊你知道福建省有多少人嗎福建省有4188萬人"},{"start":7685.751,"end":7685.771,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":7703.651,"end":7719.052,"text":"兩邊這個客運的航點的恢復都是看需求還有看整體情勢其實剛剛提到的就福建省已經他的人口數是4188萬人以2019年來台旅客的觀光支出統計每一個旅客平均是停留"},{"start":7719.412,"end":7719.692,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7742.566,"end":7762.074,"text":"不管是觀光旅遊業或服務業來說都是一筆非常大的收入所以現在陸方其實只要等我們平台的客運這個直航恢復之後就可以開放福建的民眾來到我們台灣其實這麼大的一筆這個收入我想對於我們觀光旅遊業者來說一定是很希望能夠"},{"start":7762.874,"end":7763.355,"text":"這部分本來就沒有問題"},{"start":7780.367,"end":7780.407,"text":"主席"},{"start":7795.538,"end":7796.058,"text":"我們的意思是說我們對於這個"},{"start":7819.858,"end":7821.219,"text":"我們剛剛是在跟委員解釋說我們上一次的那個報告講到說對方有善意那我們就說這跟我們的預期有點差距"},{"start":7839.859,"end":7841.361,"text":"最後一個問題請教一下我們的副署長之前你們在6月1號有一個"},{"start":7863.88,"end":7881.823,"text":"負入組團的一個禁令那現在既然大陸方面已經釋出善意了那這個善意的話我想對我們台灣觀光旅遊業者大家其實是打了一劑強心針那現在就等觀光署這邊是不是能夠立即取消不要讓我們的觀光旅遊業者跟相關的這個從業人員覺得失望"},{"start":7883.295,"end":7908.385,"text":"其實現在3月到5月我們臺灣復入的團課是沒有取消我知道我指的是6月1號這個部分可能現在因為之前是說對方這個沒有善意那現在既然對方沒有善意希望我們的這個觀光署這邊要儘速的嚴禮6月1號取消這個禁止復入這個團課的這個禁令我想交通部會再跟各部會這邊再來演繹好謝謝"},{"start":7911.021,"end":7912.002,"text":"主席、議會同仁、陸委會副主委、"},{"start":7942.165,"end":7943.226,"text":"觀光署副署長"},{"start":7957.828,"end":7981.182,"text":"觀光署的副署長,針對我們現在所談論的兩岸開放理由的問題本席在這邊真的也是非常期待說觀光業能找路的開放,也要秉持平等的互惠原則,這是我們的前提"},{"start":7982.168,"end":7999.893,"text":"那我在這邊還是本席這邊的資料我還是蠻訝異因為中國大陸他有14億人口那台灣台灣的人口只有2300萬比例是1比70那這顯示出來你說"},{"start":8003.998,"end":8030.527,"text":"2023年我們赴中國大陸有176萬人次那中國大陸來台只有22萬那這個懸殊真的有過大那問題是不是我們兩岸要重啟這個旅遊業的觀光的開放那是不是我們都是很贊成那我們相信早上我的看法我們的執行"},{"start":8031.347,"end":8056.892,"text":"我們政府也都準備好了那就是等對岸他的回應那因為大家都基於平等互惠的原則這是我們要去努力的那陸委會是不是請副主委我們要怎樣來平衡這個理由頁這我們有什麼措施來刺激兩岸的觀光"},{"start":8058.629,"end":8074.982,"text":"對於兩岸的觀光我們就是對於陸客來當然我們就歡迎因為我們看到2019年就疫情之前那大陸的陸客來台灣還有200多萬那當然我們國人去也大概300萬左右"},{"start":8075.683,"end":8090.031,"text":"那這個部分我們就是在疫情之後我們就主動的說歡迎陸客能夠組團來那但是因為陸客能夠組團來台的話必須他們的政府同意他們的組團社可以帶團體旅遊到台灣"},{"start":8093.893,"end":8118.274,"text":"政府同意他們的組團社才能夠帶到臺灣所以我們先公布這樣的政策那些一直都希望表示我們已經準備好希望陸方能夠盡快的開放他們的組團社來那這個部分當然等到現在目前來看我們一直秉持要對等所以我們一直在講說如果他們的組團社能夠"},{"start":8119.275,"end":8120.375,"text":"因為我本席這邊的資料你看"},{"start":8145.029,"end":8156.096,"text":"2019年大陸附金門里有30萬09萬的人次那到馬祖只有6500人那6500人你開放一個馬祖你說附近開放馬祖來觀光那意義也不大那你要開放這連我們本土都開放那你這樣大家的人數大家可以來對照嘛他來多少我們過去多少那這樣就"},{"start":8173.748,"end":8174.79,"text":"仍促進兩岸"},{"start":8175.922,"end":8199.296,"text":"的觀光的產業那這樣才能符合我們平等互惠的原則那這點應該是我們也要朝這個方向來努力那再來因為現在就是媽祖先今天也是五一勞動節也是媽祖先很多大陸的觀光團他們的宗教交流很多宗教要過來台灣我們台灣也很多要過去對岸"},{"start":8204.499,"end":8218.708,"text":"那秉持的這樣因為我們的開放還要經過審核這審核的階段是不是能夠更放鬆讓他們好純粹是宗教的交流這一點我們還是要去"},{"start":8219.508,"end":8246.982,"text":"去把它放寬那不涉及政治這是我們的前提但是因為這個宗教的交流第一關是要這個我們內政部民政司這邊來做整個案件的一個審核之後才會給移民署這邊來會其他單位的意見所以我想每一個宗教交流的案件我們都是陸委會都是支持的只要是健康有序的"},{"start":8247.882,"end":8256.371,"text":"合法合規的我們都支持對我們當然要支持但是我們的申請條件還是是不是可以把它再放寬一點"},{"start":8257.737,"end":8281.747,"text":"申請的條件應該跟過去沒有太大的差異因為本市這邊有因為宗教交流總是要符合宗教交流的幾個要件我想這個並沒有改變應該沒有問題因為不涉及兩岸的政治以及官員是純粹的宗教交流因為我們台灣的宗教到那邊"},{"start":8282.988,"end":8289.933,"text":"今天署長有來,總署長您要不要回應一下趙偉,其實本席這邊也接到非常多的人民的陳情案你們似乎在審的時候,這個規矩真的蠻多的,謝謝"},{"start":8313.514,"end":8336.256,"text":"委員好有關省建的部分因為宗教交流的部分目前還是如同剛剛所講的這個是要先經內政部宗教師那邊先最後還是到你們這裡啊合不合準是到你們這邊我現在談的是合不合準因為有非常多的人民也是成群到我辦公室來"},{"start":8336.957,"end":8357.532,"text":"是,那不會是移民署一個單位的意見沒有啦,我知道,我們是單位還是陸委會嘛我們各單位來聯審因為我講這樣,我真的接到很多的陳情案件所以我才想說,在審核的方面是不是要不涉及政治、不涉及官方只是宗教交流,我們還是要放寬啦好不好"},{"start":8359.673,"end":8375.263,"text":"不然我們的人數他們過來的確實都很少啊那我們過去的一團一個宗教交流就上千萬上千人啦那真的很嚇人啊他們過來了不起一百差不多一百多人"},{"start":8376.886,"end":8394.692,"text":"還是有閒書在吧好不好好謝謝謝謝吳昭偉提這個問題您的困擾跟我一樣我們都接到非常多的不好意思鍾中士我還是要再請問您一下我都感覺有一個很大的黑手在後面要核准誰來誰不來"},{"start":8397.046,"end":8415.125,"text":"所以不是您剛剛講的這麼清楚的是涉及到各部會第一次的審查其實第一次審查都沒有問題,最後到你們那邊去的時候,你們那邊就阻擋不會啦,我們不會刻意阻擋吳釗偉是民進黨的,我是無黨的,很多人就是到我們這邊來陳情"},{"start":8420.173,"end":8445.509,"text":"不會跟委員報告我們還是這個還是我們有陳秦漢私底下找鄰居應該沒問題不用說不需要什麼特別私底下我們的標準是一致的我記得很多委員也到我辦公室來說我是招我為什麼連這樣的事情都不能處理沒有沒有不會跟委員報告事實上就有啊我們不會這樣子做我們沒有必要刻意去什麼阻擋或什麼就如同剛剛委員講的"},{"start":8446.049,"end":8449.551,"text":"今天聽到兩位召委的心聲我們不僅僅代表申請來的人民的聲音也代表其他立法委員很多立法委員都到我辦公室來"},{"start":8471.264,"end":8474.625,"text":"謝謝主席本席請陸委會還有李副主委交通部周副署長"},{"start":8506.318,"end":8531.563,"text":"本席首先想請問這個交通部好了我們周副署長我們請問一下平潭到臺灣的客運運輸以前是這個都開放的嘛對不對後來是什麼原因停止的這部分是不是由我們那個杭政司司長由杭政司好杭政司是發委員那一樣是因為疫情的關係對嘛那現在還有疫情嗎"},{"start":8533.455,"end":8537.298,"text":"現在還有疫情嗎?疫情解除那為什麼還沒開放?為什麼還沒開放?你因為疫情停止那現在疫情解除了為什麼還沒開放?"},{"start":8548.383,"end":8573.451,"text":"這部分我們會朝向這是健康有序的方式來做推動什麼朝向健康有序那你現在已經你說是因為疫情才這個停止啊那現在已經沒有疫情了為什麼不開放理由是什麼你要給全國人民一個說法報委員這部分就是我們會朝這方向來努力不過還是會看整個市場的一個需求跟兩岸的政策那做整體的所以啊所以問題就出在出在你們嗎"},{"start":8575.165,"end":8601.86,"text":"平潭到台灣因為疫情停止現在疫情沒了不開放那接著本席接著要問在馬政府時代我相信這個我們副主委或者是在座各位都是事務官你們應該都在相關單位在馬英九政府時代陸客來台一年五六百萬人然後我們台灣人去大陸大概三百多萬人"},{"start":8603.308,"end":8613.317,"text":"我們也沒說什麼平等互惠啊那為什麼到了這個前面這八年我們陸客來台就這麼少"},{"start":8615.563,"end":8635.641,"text":"剛剛很多委員在質詢說平等互惠你們都沒有說實話啊什麼叫平等互惠那現在接著本席來說明在今天你們的說明裡面報告裡面你提到4月28號就是前幾天你們的新聞稿"},{"start":8636.181,"end":8664.6,"text":"你們一直強調我方在就是我們台灣在112年去年的8月24號已經公佈相關規劃然後你結論說只要陸方開放即可實施那你為什麼不說你其實在今年的2月28號你就暫緩執行了還有剛剛很多委員都在問你們說我們是不是都還可以赴大陸你們說是其實這一塊是有但書的你228你已經喊"},{"start":8666.602,"end":8692.301,"text":"這個原規則原規劃戰難執行之後你只是把已經你宣布了以後人家已經這個民眾都已經登記人家也規劃好的你讓他還有一個緩衝期到5月底你其實是已經阻絕了那你還一直回答所有委員說我們都開放我們都開放我們哪裡有開放我們完全沒有開放啊這第一個再來"},{"start":8695.654,"end":8705.281,"text":"我們現在這個陸方我們這個20192019我們一直這個講說我們2019年來200多萬我們去300多萬對啊那時候可以200多萬現在然後我們去可以300多萬那為什麼現在不能開放"},{"start":8720.872,"end":8745.994,"text":"我們都規劃好,我們陸委會有沒有去跟大陸做溝通?我們的旅遊,陸客是有一個兩岸旅遊協議的那旅遊協議平台裡面就是有一個溝通管道所以那個部分兩邊的觀光主管部門是有持續在做溝通的持續在溝通,那溝通了什麼?"},{"start":8746.494,"end":8748.336,"text":"現在本席要問一個重點,我們現在是不是有限制一天陸客可以來多少人?上線,你請說"},{"start":8769.555,"end":8770.076,"text":"目前規劃是2000"},{"start":8786.491,"end":8787.751,"text":"跟委員報告這點你就應該要講啊"},{"start":8801.576,"end":8826.235,"text":"跟委員報告,因為過去我們沒有做限額的時候,我們看20...你不要講過去,我現在在談現在的政策,所以你現在兩千人...我就先跟您報告為什麼現在會先用兩千,我們就是拿2019年...好啦沒關係啊,所以你現在兩千人你只要回答我,你不要浪費我時間我們未來是可以放寬的啊請暫停,請暫停,我現在不讓你回答,請暫停,拜託主席,時間是我的是...是..."},{"start":8827.316,"end":8835.683,"text":"所以你現在2000人那你現在一天只能2000人你要他全部開放我請教你您知道福建省有多少人嗎"},{"start":8837.311,"end":8839.412,"text":"三千多萬人也比台灣兩千多萬多很多嘛"},{"start":8864.944,"end":8873.52,"text":"當然我們當然希望說他們能夠各省都來但是你現在你設定一天只有2000人你要人家怎麼來"},{"start":8875.382,"end":8893.846,"text":"好,這個我就講,今天如果我今天兩個廠商,我一天只能供應2000個產品,我拜託你,下一億的訂單,人家怎麼下?那是每天受理的,不是每天進來的人。一樣啊,對啊,那你就希望多嘛,你2000人一年滿的話,一年多少人?"},{"start":8897.107,"end":8919.358,"text":"只要一年多少嗎?兩千人一年多少人嗎?對啊,所以啊,我們不能一開始就設定那麼多,那麼多的期待,那很多業者就去投資了,然後到時候,那個像大陸突然又把它關掉了,那我們就,我們不想負責任了,逐步來放寬。所以你全部都假設性"},{"start":8919.898,"end":8938.864,"text":"他又停掉你有沒有去了解包括人家又停掉你有沒有去了解今天不好意思主席再給我幾十秒的時間今天假設你是在做生意我不相信有一個公司我原本有訂單突然沒訂單以後這個公司會說不要管他不要管他訂單就不要了你們有去溝通嗎完全沒有嘛"},{"start":8939.704,"end":8955.096,"text":"你們只得空喊話,你們只有放話我們做生意也不能說只做一家嘛當然沒有只做一家我們會考慮其他的往來的對象不是啊,那你每一家你都要掌握現在我們又在談論一家的業務嘛我們先2000嘛,如果真的順順利利我們還在開放嘛不要一開始就期待那麼大,然後大家都去投資你不要開放那麼多,可是你要人家來那麼多"},{"start":8965.424,"end":8988.283,"text":"你剛剛的回答一直都是這樣所以我沒關係我們就把這個呈現在國人面前讓我們台灣人民清楚知道過去大陸放所有城市來的時候我們也是有配額的限制啊不是現在才這樣子啊對過去過去這樣子所以其實即便過去都還輸給馬英九政府時代嗎所以你知道嗎"},{"start":8989.424,"end":8997.11,"text":"臺灣人民期待很久了因為臺灣的經濟蕭條大家都很希望能夠活絡還有最後我們開放農產品過去陸委會的立場是什麼我們的農產品輸大陸當然是OK啊所以我新竹縣很多的單局這個要很美要好是不是可以好了謝謝謝謝委員子學姐謝謝李副主委"},{"start":9017.487,"end":9032.622,"text":"李副主委請問你一下按照你這樣子邏輯的話農民就不要多種因為萬一哪一天大陸說我們不買你的農產物的時候那農民的東西就出不去所以你是不是要代表農委會也講話一下"},{"start":9033.783,"end":9046.743,"text":"我們一開始不要給大家那麼大的期待你是陸委會副主委耶你怎麼會變成在幫人民老百姓講說他不要投資因為我們要放多少個人來要去做準備"},{"start":9049.127,"end":9068.679,"text":"大家就越清楚．其實是李副主委、陸委會．你們早就有限制．大陸客來台灣的上限那這樣的上限你所說的．請你不要說話 召委沒有請你說是是 請召委不好意思 對不起"},{"start":9073.229,"end":9073.409,"text":"謝謝,謝謝政委"},{"start":9103.929,"end":9109.213,"text":"繼續我們請丁選中委員質詢丁選中委員質詢完畢之後我們要來處理臨時提案謝謝主席好我請我們交通部觀光署副署長有請周副署長謝謝"},{"start":9124.229,"end":9129.832,"text":"委員好 副市長好 副市長我們本年關齁這幾年來在我們中壢省關中齁 直接來對著高雄電的特性來開墾一些荒廢的地方 變成一些觀光"},{"start":9140.157,"end":9141.377,"text":"尤其是當我們後衛,我們後衛是一個文化的重點"},{"start":9159.622,"end":9171.167,"text":"我們在後有一些文化古蹟以外我們還是把一些文化古蹟都修繕好不管日經或夜經我們有家鄉一些觀光環境也創造很多我們的觀光林口但是我們還有一個很好的特色因為好位過去是因糖廠而起因糖廠而起後我們的糖廠這五分車現在是全台灣有的又有在運"},{"start":9189.474,"end":9195.259,"text":"感激的五分車。一共六年四月十四,蔡英文總統有去到河外找到五分車,說這是一個很好推廣的觀光商業,要求交通部列入前瞻計劃,推動觀光小火車。"},{"start":9213.135,"end":9218.864,"text":"一半空過的年六月二五﹐我們本地管政府﹐把舊的書送到交通部後﹐我們的小火車﹐跟這尊藥又沒有空的藥﹐這案現在到底是怎樣"},{"start":9227.425,"end":9254.707,"text":"與委員報告．好賣的湯青瓦去幾個街 蠻有特色的那雲林縣政府一些的前瞻觀光的提案那個觀光署都很支持 包含上一期的計畫像這個北港到湖北還有到這個金湖這邊的串聯所以我們相當支持提供3億以上的那個經費那這個觀光列車的部分這個可能還要再來瞭解一下但是那個"},{"start":9255.467,"end":9267.277,"text":"其他觀光的活動,不管是地方創生、觀光的活動,還是說觀光設施的建設,觀光署都非常支持雲仙建築。所以,分署長,我剛才說的就是針對我們這個通常的觀光小火車。同一時間,我們這個嘉義蒜頭也一樣有上出這個結尾。結果,我們是把這個結尾、這個經費全部蒜頭進行。"},{"start":9280.669,"end":9280.689,"text":"致電訪問"},{"start":9307.088,"end":9317.275,"text":"警官道路都已經 鐵路的警官都已經做好了都已經做好了 啊 管政委員 後面還要講完 起來我們中央 去我們交通部要來要求說 我們交通部已經把經費掛了 才行 跟之前都沒什麼事 欸 教委員報告齁因為 我的理解是 那個 要用的自行車道啦 自行車道有塞進去 跟那個方位 跟北港齁 這個自行車道的串聯 那自行車道的交通部"},{"start":9335.126,"end":9345.852,"text":"自行車道是反自行車道我講的這個觀光小火車這是我們後衛的特色這是特色自行小火車那個自行車的車道那四格都有四格都有我講的是地方的特色不是講這個自行車道而已我們為什麼要將對地方的特色"},{"start":9359.44,"end":9368.354,"text":"來推廣才對：讓這個律師可以因為都老了：讓這個律師可以讓全國的人去到好位：了解到我們這個唐產文化：對吧"},{"start":9370.916,"end":9386.208,"text":"所以這案我們可以繼續下去執行委員報告這案我回來再了解因為我上一次余烈先生沒有提案是沒有看到這案委員所提案不是啦 因為我在說這案已經消案了在我們交通部這裡說消案了"},{"start":9396.676,"end":9403.34,"text":"香港事實上我是這段沒有這個資料的照你講齁這是推動電影館公司嘛你是責無方待對啊這是你責無方待要下去做才對不是說這個這個這殺雞什麼交通法殺雞殺雞提入局提入局殺雞經濟法啊殺來殺去殺到殺死人總要放假你"},{"start":9421.601,"end":9421.901,"text":"有請李副主委"},{"start":9449.015,"end":9457.219,"text":"副主委好 第一次看到你剛才我在電視、在現場也看到很多委員針對我們這個七層我們這個大陸大陸恢復到福建基金會跟我們做這個旅遊已經也恢復到我們這個福建平潭跟我們做客運這個客運的輪船已經可以開始行駛了我認為"},{"start":9478.763,"end":9483.405,"text":"我聽到說我們陸委會的恢復是因為其他的恢復沒有開放這個案件沒有符合對等開放的原則也不是觀光理由的一個常態我在這裡覺得奇怪我們政府叫你說我們是要針對全民的福利、全民的利益為優先才對不是用政治角力的方式"},{"start":9504.838,"end":9504.898,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9520.259,"end":9528.305,"text":"法定要觀光客開來,法定要觀光客開,我們也是一個國家,我們不是副屬單位,我們都認為我們是一個國家,我們是一個國家,我們用我們國家跟國家對談的方式,我們大家互相,大家在交流,"},{"start":9539.013,"end":9543.241,"text":"發展觀光客開放,你對我有誠意,我對你也要釋出善意,你不能一直說我們已經開始對你有誠意,我們觀光局限我們自己"},{"start":9550.711,"end":9551.992,"text":"現在各單位正在演繹當中"},{"start":9572.779,"end":9575.301,"text":"我們現在來處理臨時題案今天臨時題案共五案我們請宣讀"},{"start":9606.021,"end":9630.852,"text":"2023年8月﹐我國大陸委員會曾釋出善意表示期望以平等互惠原則﹐期望我國與中國同時開放進團令﹐雖然會中國回應我國交通部仍於2023年11月宣布開放定額團客附中﹐然而中國不但無平等互惠回應﹐甚至更進一步於2024年1月偏偏宣布M503航線更貼近海峽中線﹐逼近我國限航區且公告開放W122、W123西向東航路﹐"},{"start":9631.272,"end":9651.143,"text":"造成我國空房壓力顯示我國在對中交流、溝通上的真心幻覺情為我國被迫恢復進團、克服中民主義之一在我國提出嚴正抗議後中國仍未經國際規範堅持於2024年4月19日拼命啟用W12、W23西向東航路造成區域航行及飛航管制作業複雜度增加"},{"start":9651.543,"end":9677.494,"text":"亦有天候不良或航氣飛行操作異常時﹐大幅升高飛安風險﹐雖中國文化和旅遊部於2024年4月28日率先宣布恢復福建居民到馬祖旅遊﹐然中國對台的威嚇及善意比例相符與否仍有可疑之處﹐因此﹐大陸委員會因會頭相關部會在以捍衛對等交流為前提﹐研議我國是否開放組團附中及開放範圍﹐並持續提出措施協助或輔導受影響業者﹐提案人為蘇巧慧等6人﹐"},{"start":9680.885,"end":9704.238,"text":"民事提案二,觀光產業的復興重點在人流,為0403花蓮大地震致敬,花東地區觀光產業因雲震不斷導致國人不願前往旅遊。如今,大陸文旅部經宣布,開放大陸福建民眾赴馬祖旅遊,為兩岸觀光帶來曙光。馬祖國家風景管理處處長黃詩芳表示,開放旅客將為馬祖地區帶來五億元的觀光收入,逐漸人流對觀光產業新城市有極大關聯。"},{"start":9704.958,"end":9725.543,"text":"政府除訂定0403花東地區觀光附贈獎勵措施外更應積極爭取大陸遊客直航花東進行觀光藉由人潮刺激花東地區的觀光產業復甦委員提案要求大陸委員會、交通部與一個月內就陸客團直航花東地區提出書面報告以立花東地區觀光產業附贈提案人委員黃建斌等5人"},{"start":9726.443,"end":9749.094,"text":"民事提案3。0403大地震對花蓮縣造成極大極大的傷害政府將主要資源投入花蓮徵災重建實屬因緯而花東地區產業是一脈相連尤其是觀光產業不僅花蓮受到極大傷害臺東縣觀光產業令也因地震受到牽連如今花蓮地區域正不斷連帶造成國人不願前往臺東地區觀光而近臺東縣旅宿業平均地方域只剩三成"},{"start":9749.634,"end":9772.293,"text":"比往年高達八成地方率大幅減少若遊客遲遲不來臺東縣有旅俗業者經營不下去花東的相關產業發展是唇齒下陰尤其觀光產業更是如此原要求交通部觀光署應就零四零三華聯大地震後臺東縣觀光產業輔助措施演繹相關獎輔助措施並比照前進一花東高屏暖冬遊模式"},{"start":9772.993,"end":9799.28,"text":"補助國民國內旅遊藉此引導國人前往臺東地區觀光工創花東地區觀光榮景提案人為黃建斌等5人。臨時提案4.近年04年03年大地震後,凸顯花東地區交通的脆弱性,再者從921大地震經驗來看,大地震過後地質相關不穩定,如遇大雨亦發生土石流災害,而4月22日大雨就造成臺九縣土石流。"},{"start":9800.06,"end":9825.065,"text":"公路鐵路因而一度中斷,坐實了花東地區北上交通孔將進入不穩定的狀態政府應就相關問題儘早進行妥善規劃,如增加花東地區無返客直轄市班機機票減免與鐵路優惠票價降低對交通中斷對花東地區居民的影響：提案要求交通部於一個月內提出書面報告以維護花東地區住民通行權益提案人為黃建斌等5人"},{"start":9826.705,"end":9843.245,"text":"臨時提案五,案有未促進兩岸觀光交流,進請交通部、陸委會等相關部會立即開放福建平台往返臺灣的客運運輸,推動福建民眾赴臺團客旅遊,必利人民往返兩岸更為便利,增加民間互動瞭解,兩岸將創造互惠互利雙贏,是中華民國之行,是2350萬全民之福。"},{"start":9846.228,"end":9861.038,"text":"說明一位出境兩岸傭兵本113年4月28日由代表民意的17位國會議員出訪大陸出境兩岸和平交流、良性溝通、理性對話避免惡意螺旋不斷上升民進黨做不到不願意做不想做只有國民黨積極做、努力做、認真在做"},{"start":9861.738,"end":9889.667,"text":"二﹐大陸官方接連宣布﹐君主花蓮正在簽民組合屋﹐開放文單又恢復輸入﹐重啟大陸福建居民赴馬祖觀光及福建省政府新一波十三鄉會台措施﹐成果豐碩﹐這些成果也再次證明兩岸不管官方還是民間﹐只要理性溝通、良心對話﹐收回的絕對是臺灣的百貢百業﹐全體善良的臺灣民眾﹐兩岸絕對不是只有對抗衝突﹐民進黨所堅持的抗中保台﹐事實上是持續害台﹐讓第一螺旋越加上升"},{"start":9890.767,"end":9910.143,"text":"3.基於兩岸和平交流並符合未來耐總統的主張,工程黨要與民選合法的執政黨對談。因此,相關會台措施將與520接任的耐慶德政府應積極回應落實處理,如何多元交流,活絡兩岸經貿觀光旅遊活動,人民往返兩岸更便利是當務之急。提案人委員徐宇珍等6人。宣讀完畢"},{"start":9911.796,"end":9923.164,"text":"主席再次宣布,第一案照案通過,第二、第三、第四案完成溝通,然後有一些文字修正也按照修正通過。現在是提案五的部分。"},{"start":9939.949,"end":9941.189,"text":"民進黨提的臨時提案有跟國民黨的人討論過嗎?所以你們是有意見是不是?"},{"start":9958.663,"end":9965.229,"text":"第一案跟第五案我們現在溝通一下第二、第三、第四案已經完成溝通按照修正文字通過我們休息五分鐘來溝通一下第一案跟第五案謝謝"},{"start":10778.066,"end":10780.769,"text":"2023年8月,我國大陸委員會曾釋出善意表示期望以"},{"start":10793.544,"end":10797.49,"text":"第二項期望我國的我國修正為臺灣稅務或中國回應"},{"start":10810.261,"end":10828.318,"text":"期望我國與中國修正為期望台灣與大陸未獲中國回應修正為未獲大陸回應第5行必進我國限行區修正為必進台灣限行區"},{"start":10832.338,"end":10845.987,"text":"請問在場的委員,這樣子的文字修正?好,我們就按照這樣的修正文字通過,來第五案。臨時提案五,案由未促進兩岸觀光前面增加台灣與大陸。"},{"start":10849.328,"end":10874.395,"text":"說明一 後段的避免惡意螺旋到最後這一整段刪除說明二 民進黨所堅持的抗中保台事實上是持續害台讓地域螺旋越加上升這段文字刪除好 請問一下國民黨這樣的文字說這樣OK好 我們第五案按照這樣的修正文字通過謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":10877.332,"end":10899.372,"text":"好,我們現在就...好,我們現在不休息,我們繼續開會,大家辛苦了好,我們繼續請廖先祥我們現在請廖先祥委員來做質詢,謝謝"},{"start":10915.106,"end":10920.394,"text":"好,謝謝召委,那麻煩幫我邀請我們李副主委,還有公安署的周副署長"},{"start":10928.933,"end":10952.089,"text":"好,謝謝我們兩位長官那今天當然就是主要針對兩岸的觀光來做一個討論那其實觀光業者其實對業者來講,國土最重要那其實對政治或是意識形態對他們來說都是其次的他們只希望能夠有一個溫飽希望有一個好的收益那這一次"},{"start":10954.383,"end":10981.631,"text":"有關我們國民黨團赴對岸去做一些溝通討論之後那陸方也有發一些新聞稿嘛 對不對那我想先請教一下這幾年這個台灣的觀光業確實他們反應過的不是太好我想確認一下最近觀光署的部分最近一次我們的統計我們台灣的觀光逆差來到了多少你有沒有最近一次的統計你有沒有印象無論是"},{"start":10984.847,"end":11008.279,"text":"上半年,今天上半年到位一次統計,或者是去年,這方面應該是每年都有統計嘛,最近一次的統計資料大概是區間的時候那金額多少,你有印象嗎?委員的意思是觀光逆差?金額?這個我要查一下你要查一下?但原則上應該是有一個相當大金額的逆差,沒有錯嘛對不對?"},{"start":11010.333,"end":11010.693,"text":"臺灣的觀光經濟都是逆差的"},{"start":11029.446,"end":11056.106,"text":"如果說這一次陸方如果說因為我們只有階段性的討論假設陸方開放他們的民眾福建民眾到媽祖旅遊以及福建的居民到臺灣這個團客開放以及我們臺灣赴這個平潭的海上客運這個都開放這三個都如果說到開放的情況下對我國的對我們臺灣的"},{"start":11059.188,"end":11077.098,"text":"經濟觀光逆差會不會有幫助?你們的評估?應該是正向的。一定是正向的嘛。如果說這三個都能夠完成的話,好多是正向的嘛對不對?那現在,現在只有第一個前提有辦法做到嘛,就是說這個陸方來到媽祖的部分是有辦法做到的嘛。"},{"start":11077.718,"end":11102.758,"text":"因為已經宣布了我們也沒有受阻礙所以它就是已經達成了那接下來就是兩個東西要來達成就是平潭對台方的我們台灣對平潭的一個海上客運以及福建居民來到我們台灣做做這個團客的旅遊那既然這兩項都開放對我們台灣的觀光逆差有幫助的話那請問一下我們現在斟酌的點大概在哪一邊"},{"start":11105.836,"end":11106.457,"text":"行點恢復是海運還是平台?"},{"start":11124.83,"end":11150.874,"text":"因為航點的恢復過去其實跟觀光我們是分開來就是說只要有需求然後就像我們空運的航點我們已經放15個定期航班13個可以包機但是那13個包機到現在都沒有包成嘛那海運的加開也是要看有沒有客源等等那這些都在跨部會的討論當中那剛剛應該前面有委員有問到然後可以問具體一點"},{"start":11151.614,"end":11172.787,"text":"我們現在跨部會的一個針對這個平潭到台灣的這個海運的客運赴航我們有沒有定一個時間點要召集各部會來做討論這個部分因為航運是交通部在主管所以會由交通部這邊來所以我們收到通知了沒所以交通部也有來嗎"},{"start":11175.105,"end":11188.877,"text":"時間定了沒?我想他們還沒通知之前,我們自己就會募了,當然會開始做一些...你們多久以內可以做相關的會議的討論?召開會議討論?我們會禁訴吧。好不好,直接給我一個時間,多久以內?有沒有辦法這樣子?交通部?防政司司長。是,包委,這部分我們會跟陸委會一起禁訴來研議。禁訴多久啦?給一個時間啦,不是禁訴一年兩年,還是一個禮拜兩個禮拜?"},{"start":11202.639,"end":11203.559,"text":"繼續我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":11244.446,"end":11271.299,"text":"主席、國務委員、有請陸委會有請李副主委還有觀光署的周副署長兩位好都是公務員出身嗎對,我們都是朝廣觀我也是公務員出身我們看這次陸委會的報告陸方"},{"start":11273.664,"end":11300.997,"text":"恢復陸客來台觀光之內容及雙方規劃差異第一段引述了這個大陸方面的一個說明當然文字不完全一樣這個沒有關係我們陸委會的報告裡面也提到雙方規劃差異然後這些提到這些陸委會的報告也提到這個"},{"start":11302.711,"end":11329.939,"text":"本會、交通部及相關機關稀時間釐清所涉相關事宜,妥慎處理,以利後續實際執行,確保有序交流,並符合臺灣整體利益。我們看這個陳建仁院長他對於這個大陸的一個宣布他直接說"},{"start":11331.42,"end":11357.974,"text":"對於相關回應臺灣早就已經準備好了跟你前面我剛唸的這個陸委會的說明那個觀光署的還提到那個另外一個事情你的報告我都沒有引用你還提到另外一個事情所以這個部分那我先問陸委會李副主委這個"},{"start":11360.442,"end":11386.495,"text":"陳建仁院長說早就準備好了是如何他指的應該就是陸客來台的部分對啊我們準備好了怎麼還要你這邊的報告裡面還要再稀時間還要時間釐清然後妥善處理這個部分這個"},{"start":11389.03,"end":11417.06,"text":"還是不要那麼保守還是你們當然公務員嘛寫上去之後上面改了有可能所以這個部分前幾天宣布的內容是這個陳院長提的他是4月29號的新聞所以是前一天就講所以這個部分這個我們"},{"start":11418.874,"end":11443.113,"text":"如果回顧這個回顧從過去兩岸的交流從戒嚴戒嚴然後解嚴的第二年就開放大陸探親對不對我們先開放的包括一切後續的都是我們先開放"},{"start":11445.091,"end":11467.359,"text":"作為臺灣作為一個自由民主法治的國家我們號稱自由民主法治國家我們還是在現行的法律被明定為威權統治時期法律有明定威權統治時期當然這是這幾年定的"},{"start":11472.318,"end":11490.342,"text":"被認為威權統治時期的時候就開放了所以這個陸委會還有觀光署你們要把這個因為新的主委要進來了新的部長也要進來了你要把這個整個過程寫得詳詳細細從來就是我們先對不對因為他對我們有利嘛"},{"start":11503.066,"end":11504.367,"text":"新的主委也很了解"},{"start":11533.369,"end":11534.19,"text":"委員好 副主委好"},{"start":11561.636,"end":11583.784,"text":"副主委根據兩岸人民關係條例第五條之一的規定那我們各級地方的政府機關公務人員或者是各級的民意代表沒有經過盧委會的授權不得與大陸地區人民法人團體或者是其他機關用任何形式簽署協議可以請副主委解釋一下任何形式協商是什麼嗎"},{"start":11585.185,"end":11597.446,"text":"這是指那個涉及公權力的部分的協商是還有簽署協議那這個要經過授權那簽署協議一定是要指書面簽署才算嗎"},{"start":11601.535,"end":11614.543,"text":"因為現在的協議呈現方式也不一定是書面如果口頭協議發生了書面協議的效果算是符合兩岸的民間條例裡面簽署協議嗎?"},{"start":11616.511,"end":11636.323,"text":"這個要看各案實質來做認定是那副委員他率團到中國是會見中國政協主席王惠寧那在他們協商之後那中國武林部宣布開放福建民眾駙馬族旅遊並將在平潭與台灣海上客運恢復後恢復福建民眾來台團體旅遊"},{"start":11638.524,"end":11658.067,"text":"那翻成白話我們簡單講講就是副委員跟中國談完之後那中國就以副條件現區域的方式來恢復陸客來台觀光那這是不是所謂的口頭協議卻發生了書面協議的效果那如果是這樣的話是不是有違反兩岸關係人民條例的第五之一條"},{"start":11662.484,"end":11676.264,"text":"這個應該我們還得再仔細的看這個過程因為我相信副委員對於相關法律規定都很熟悉而且不只有副委員還有好多位的委員都有去"},{"start":11676.804,"end":11700.804,"text":"對 我們必須要有一個完整的指引現在不是我們委員熟不熟悉我們又要針對個別委員或者是要恭喜我的同僚但是我們的法令要非常的清晰這樣是不是符合書面協議的效果那這樣有沒有違反條例的精神要先講清楚不要讓這些我們的這些國會的同僚那去有觸法的嫌疑嘛"},{"start":11702.865,"end":11727.91,"text":"我們要再請我們的法政單位來做進一步的研究我個人是反對這樣子的做法因為沒有經過入委會的授權那這樣去做是不對的但是我們更希望說作為主管局的話你的入委會那要講清楚說明白為什麼因為口頭協議跟書面協議它可能會產生未來政治問題假設如果未來有另外一批"},{"start":11728.49,"end":11756.867,"text":"我不管地方的議員也好或者是未來的其他的立法委員也好再去中國再談出來另外一個協議他沒有簽署但是會有實質效果影響到我國在國際社會的這個說話權或者是影響到我國在國際的這些認知那怎麼辦他一樣沒有他只是口頭喔但是他一定要他不是書面的簽署但是他一樣有他政治的效應甚至是有實質的政策的影響那這樣的話陸委會怎麼辦"},{"start":11758.737,"end":11759.258,"text":"針對兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":11775.973,"end":11802.586,"text":"他重點的精神非常重要不要以任何的協商達成涉及臺灣地區公權力的這個協議那這會影響到我們的國際空間我想還是要強調不可以說是因為口頭的方式然後就說這沒有違反到五之一條那其實它是有影響的那實質上面的影響是直接某種程度已經直接造成了我剛剛講到的負條件、限期域不對等的這樣子的開放我覺得這是不對的"},{"start":11803.607,"end":11804.148,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11816.397,"end":11832.993,"text":"我看兩岸關係會走到這個地步還是我們太多國會議員基本的法律常識都沒有那我等一下 我要幫陸委會回答這個議題啦這個 怎麼叫 deal 協議 agreement deal 嘛對方提一個 offer 我們要一個 counter offer 才叫 deal agreement"},{"start":11833.853,"end":11856.041,"text":"中間這些國會議員只是去做溝通的工作對方提出一個offer我們這邊公權如果沒有counter offer就是說同意就不會成為一個deal哪會成為一個協議呢是前期的溝通工作這是基本的法制ABC沒關係所以兩人關係會走到地步就有人什麼很多人什麼都不懂然後就講出一些莫名其妙破壞這個努力的人工作的那個想法副主委我們有請副主委法務部"},{"start":11859.163,"end":11859.845,"text":"法務部司長、海基會副秘書長"},{"start":11866.851,"end":11890.581,"text":"副主委我剛剛聽到您說有在提到說大陸開放這個馬祖這個部分附近大馬祖旅遊這個部分那你們事實上本來就已經做好規劃開放金門馬祖也是同意的你們是希望連金門都一起開放嗎當然所以大陸沒有開放這個大陸開放的部分門開的很小對不對"},{"start":11893.355,"end":11899.278,"text":"門開得很小啦我都可以說你不用擔心我們這個部分我們也支持開放金門嗎當然沒問題所以我們不用被動嘛我們現在是被動說等到陸方同意開放我們就來實施我們可以主動啊我們主動說宣布金門開放讓大陸來嘛"},{"start":11914.245,"end":11936.452,"text":"我們是已經開放我們是說實現一定要對方也放客人才行所以你一樣你跟大陸玩一樣的遊戲嘛一個前提大陸就說那個0214先解決你又說一定要他開放你現在他已經先主動開放馬祖了嘛沒有任何的前提他已經開放馬祖開了一個小小的縫你也可以說我們主動因為你剛剛也是支持嘛沒錯吧我們已經開放啦所以說你說我們已經假如他們送件我們就所以說現在"},{"start":11939.973,"end":11961.425,"text":"太好了,這個答案就是我要的,我們事實上開放大陸,你就是現在宣布我們是開放入客到金門來嗎?到金門來嗎?你這樣再講一次吧我們去年就已經說9月底之後,我們就歡迎大陸放他們的客人到台灣來好,那就沒有任何前提嘛,所以只要大陸願意送件就可以過來嘛,就可以到金門嘛"},{"start":11962.767,"end":11970.697,"text":"這個沒有問題嗎?當然我看到你們這個報告第一頁裡頭說也是想說什麼只要陸方同意開放那這個不要設前提啊反正你們就宣布開放嘛"},{"start":11972.313,"end":11997.889,"text":"你剛剛的意思是不用設前提啦開放那他要不要開放是他的事嘛他要放才能實現沒錯他要放是他的事情他不放自然我們的百姓業者也會反過去要求啊對吧就不要大家不要一直雞生蛋蛋等到你開放我才開放你才開放嘛不過你剛剛先講到因為我要講金門的部分所以金門部分沒有問題啦金門部分已經就說反正已經開放就等大陸開放而已啦大陸只要就讓他自己送建反正你們會准啦你只要告訴我這一句就好了"},{"start":12000.871,"end":12013.512,"text":"好 謝謝然後接著那個沒有開放的原因是0214這個的這個就是那個就是海巡那時候有兩個漁民刀在漁民這個溺水了那溺水 陸委會跟海基會你們現在跟刀有沒有溝通的管道"},{"start":12015.66,"end":12043.768,"text":"海峽除了這個文書這種往來以外有沒有什麼溝通的管道以前海峽都扮演很重要的角色陸委會我想我們針對這個事件就是政府的主託我們有發函到海峽發函然後呢對然後答案呢就是那個兩位大陸漁民在金門這個影響金門很大那另外就是說我們也是在當地幫助那兩位沒有沒有你們跟大陸我們要當地大陸大陸那邊海峽對於我們的發函他沒有給我們正式的回覆沒有任何回應就對了沒有給正式回覆有沒有讀你也不知道"},{"start":12045.188,"end":12045.368,"text":"法務部"},{"start":12074.788,"end":12089.023,"text":"請問一下 現在大陸的事實上 要求去做上次的這個上次到3月份以後嘛3月份以後的這個事情繼續往下 大家繼續往下談那這個請問法務部 金門地警署這個案子到底還要偵辦多久金門地警署現在仍然在偵辦中"},{"start":12094.028,"end":12119.964,"text":"已經申辦多久了這個是這個多重大的事情啊卡住手情來這個你看一下徵查不公開作為辦法第8條有齁這個這些東西齁這個為了維護公共利益這已經涉及到全金門的這個公共利益了合法權益齁有必要可以適度徵這個揭露嘛齁然後這個重大的矚目這應該是社會矚目案件了吧這個社會矚目案件很大啊你們是不是趕快的說明啊什麼時候會辦好呢"},{"start":12121.65,"end":12147.108,"text":"因為現在的偵查中是已經將相關的一些這些事證送請專家鑑定在鑑定還要多久呢那因為這涉及到第三方的一個鑑定所以這個時程是要依照鑑定的這個所以你們都不知道多久對不對所以整個金門發展會因為你們法務部的這個辭職而受到影響跟委員說明就是說可不可以辦快一點呢這個時間可以嗎趕快有一個結果出來嘛"},{"start":12148.206,"end":12148.606,"text":"現在都已經二月到四月五月啦 三個月了"},{"start":12163.8,"end":12187.058,"text":"那涉及到這個鑑定的這個復雜面向等等這些反正你也沒有辦法說什麼那我再問部長那對不起再一分鐘喔最後一個是喔我向陸委會不知道有沒有看到喔我看到剛剛很多委員回答還是在意識形態的東西現在我們看到兩岸的這個領導人不管是賴清德總統或是習近平總書記他們現在事實上兩邊都在互相釋放出善意啦我想陸委會應該有觀察到這一點吧"},{"start":12188.519,"end":12188.719,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12208.169,"end":12208.409,"text":"黃孟楷委員"},{"start":12233.513,"end":12244.909,"text":"主席謝謝我想先請我們陸委會副主委、海基會副秘書長跟我們觀光署副署長蔡副秘書長還有周副署長我想在開始質詢之前我也一樣就是說真的"},{"start":12250.902,"end":12278.505,"text":"我們兩岸能夠要有自信、平等、對等的往來但絕對不是這種我們自己的政治意識形態作祟然後執政黨的委員在這邊拿是是而非的問題就是拜託我們的官員一定要順著他的話來答那如果說沒有順著他話的話套不出話好像自己沒有這個台階下很難堪說沒有簽署但有實際效果啊口頭啊那行政部門怎麼因應呢無限上綱"},{"start":12279.466,"end":12307.124,"text":"如果這樣的話賴清德總統候選人在之前選舉的時候還說要跟習近平吃蝦仁飯欸阿這個有沒有違反所以真的拜託我們國會殿堂裡面要拿出來的質詢真的有點品質否則的話官員我都為你們感到汗顏你們講是也不對講不是也不對因為執政黨的委員阿得罪不起阿是不是這樣沒有委員的你剛還一抹微笑我覺得你剛那微笑蠻真誠可愛的"},{"start":12308.726,"end":12337.917,"text":"介入你剛剛的一個化解你的尷尬我不是要給你尷尬我也不是要挖洞給你跳因為我真的看不下去我覺得說如果一個委員他就拿著助理準備好的稿甚至可能是中央廚房的稿就是來這邊一定要把他的話然後執政黨政治意識形態塞給官員就是要官員裡面回答就是要罵罵一下我們的傅坤祺總召罵一下我們的藍委17位藍委好像這樣子就可以回去交差了事我覺得你們真的不用配合"},{"start":12340.144,"end":12366.449,"text":"來我先請教一下今天我看到主委9點半離開了所以有要工那我們的準主委今天也沒有來那新就任主委大家都不願意過來那是在迴避什麼520就要上任了我們這個重要議題非常重要尤其是我們現在要討論的是說未來6月1號可能又要限縮我們的觀光產業那我們現在講啊"},{"start":12367.694,"end":12384.151,"text":"中國大陸那邊釋出橄欖枝他們也講是說希望能夠恢復福建跟馬祖的這個旅遊還有這個通過檢疫的文旦銷路最直接是觀光類群組馬上大漲而且農民也回答說樂觀其成套一句陳建仁院長講的話股市上萬點你們不高興嗎"},{"start":12388.39,"end":12417.189,"text":"那觀光產業歡欣鼓舞難道政府不高興嗎難道政府不喜歡嗎那既然都已經有那麼善意的回應了現在居然還講不管是王國才部長不管是我們相關的單位講說還要再研議不知道說對岸的這個善意有多大然後還說對岸的善意沒有不符合期待那我想請教研議多久會有一個結果我們會盡快"},{"start":12417.871,"end":12445.239,"text":"盡快是多久找哪一些單位來研議目前主要就是交通部陸委會還有內政部吧由陸委會主揪找相關部會來研議是不是陸客的部分當然是陸委會陸客來台的部分所以什麼時候要正式發通知因為過去本席也在這裡委員會裡面質詢很多次啊我問說那個禁團利6月1號禁團利到底是誰下命令啊"},{"start":12445.919,"end":12474.579,"text":"沒有人有回答欸進團令6月1號限制沒有人有回答欸我問觀光署觀光署你們下命令但是誰給你們指令是交通部部長嗎沒有回答欸就推給國安單位欸就說是因為是國安欸你們拿觀光發展條例明明是這種跟國安八竿子打不相關的然後可以來限制旅行業者那現在在主揪"},{"start":12477.231,"end":12504.008,"text":"來,什麼時候主揪?你們要討論、研議?本期是想知道進度。陸客來台是陸委會,我們會盡快。盡快是多快?這個禮拜?就陸委會的部分,馬祖是即刻就可以嘛,只要有客人來我們當然就可以實現。那團客的部分我們就還要看前面那個條件能不能達成。那這個部分交通部就會盡快來做。交通部還是陸委會?"},{"start":12505.345,"end":12533.724,"text":"航點的恢復是交通部是啊來那副署長剛陸委會講說會盡快我不知道他的盡快是多快因為這個沒有量化你的盡快可能是一個小時兩個小時我比較急性子啊我可能盡快會是說就立即處理啊那副署長現在他要把球踢給你囉他說這個是你們交通部的我想這個我們會會跟那個相關部會一起來演繹啦太好了又是演繹來什麼時候演繹"},{"start":12536.621,"end":12563.997,"text":"什麼時候演繹給客氣、給方便不是當隨便本席現在在國會殿堂質詢我尊重你們是文官尊重你們今天是副署長、副主委是副手但是不是給方便當隨便隨便回答盡快演繹什麼時候演繹"},{"start":12569.571,"end":12578.864,"text":"因為剛剛的臨時提案也有提到一個航點的部分嗎?臨時提案只是航點,沒有說開放全部的入客。"},{"start":12584.993,"end":12611.513,"text":"還是你有回去我現在講的是6月1號的進團例要研議針對現在有善意之前也講是說要善意那現在講說不符合期待那怎麼樣的期待才是符合你們的期待要不要給出標準那以及如果說講說現在的這樣的一個部分要不要來去做討論6月1號進團例要不要解除這是觀光產業大家都在看的這是飯店、旅遊、住宿、觀光、餐飲業者大家都期盼的"},{"start":12613.083,"end":12625.109,"text":"你們一直命令就把我們的觀光產業給封鎖那現在再問你們你們講說越演繹人家是性命身家都在相關的產業發展欸好意思嗎?趙偉站起來我尊重趙偉但我真的"},{"start":12639.926,"end":12669.087,"text":"很嚴正地講這個議題那麼的嚴肅站在對等、平等、尊嚴以及讓我們台灣2350萬人大家市場有飯碗的情況下如果你們這樣的行政官員的態度520前只是想要混時間等到新任主委再上來新任部長再上來副手就是今天來罵一罵今天誰倒楣、誰抽籤、誰抽刀被指派來大家站著倒不如"},{"start":12670.097,"end":12683.876,"text":"倒不如就不要上班了,薪水不要領,國人還看得比較舒服一點。好,非常謝謝洪孟凱委員的質詢,謝謝。我們請相關部會首長還有在場的官員們體諒一下,剛剛昭偉也講到"},{"start":12687.045,"end":12687.605,"text":"繼續我們請鄭正前委員來質詢"},{"start":12721.105,"end":12747.785,"text":"主席好,我想請一下陸委會的副主委李立貞副主委還有我們交通部觀光署的副署長周廷章,周副署長非常感謝主席今天特別安排了針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為這樣的一個主題那我在想說其實很多委員也都問了其實我對於整個陸委會跟那個"},{"start":12749.426,"end":12749.826,"text":"副主委"},{"start":12776.822,"end":12795.542,"text":"這個部分因為還涉及到跨部會的協商我想我們會盡快對 就盡快就是你剛剛回憶其實那個剛剛洪柏海委員也非常的深情因為盡快這兩個字就拖了很久包括之前大家在追為什麼6月1號就是團客不能再去大陸這部分的一個決策"},{"start":12795.922,"end":12796.082,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12818.575,"end":12818.915,"text":"我們會建議是我們會建議"},{"start":12848.223,"end":12876.764,"text":"你們會建議賴清德總統在520講稿當中很具體回應兩岸旅客交流兩岸旅客交流的問題是不是因為這個總統的講稿並不是陸委會你剛才提到說你們會建議嗎那我希望你們繼續努力因為520是一個很重要的一個時間點如果賴清德在520講稿當中具體的回應這個事情我相信所有的"},{"start":12877.825,"end":12877.985,"text":"旅遊業者．"},{"start":12893.148,"end":12894.909,"text":"請問交通部,平潭和台灣的客運,什麼時候可以走?"},{"start":12920.515,"end":12943.393,"text":"這部分我們目前也正在跟陸委會在研議中還是陸委會嘛還是在研議嘛預計什麼時候可以做一個政策宣示因為平潭跟台灣當中的一個客運以前就有在走是因為疫情才停下來改成貨運那現在客運要走有什麼困難嗎副主委"},{"start":12945.454,"end":12961.039,"text":"政策宣示是一件事情 客源不客源是市場面臨的問題你們政策都沒有宣布去考慮客源的問題 這不是一個化石天竺的事情嗎你們政策都沒有定 政策定了之後市場怎麼樣走是後續的問題"},{"start":12963.217,"end":12963.878,"text":"這個我們就會盡快來做宣示"},{"start":12983.957,"end":13011.522,"text":"因為這兩件事情如果開了那我覺得兩岸的觀光旅遊就可以逐步的回復正常就是你們講的一個部分能夠逐步落實回復陸客主團來台觀光的政策對於台灣的觀光旅遊相關的業者才是一個救命單所以我們希望就是因為你們的意識無關你們今天來擋這個部分我也覺得你們很可憐因為"},{"start":13012.862,"end":13031.607,"text":"民進黨在兩岸政策當中無能對話的能力都沒有那現在在野黨把這個兩岸旅遊的溝通的門先把它打開來了對方釋出了善意不管善意有大有小都是善意重點是現在無能的民進黨怎麼去應應"},{"start":13033.807,"end":13053.287,"text":"兩岸這樣的議題把這個球接好才能夠真正讓兩岸的旅遊觀光業進入常軌好不好那剛剛講到兩個時間點請就是副主委去努力一下然後希望把這個政策開放在520的那個總統就職演講當中的時候能夠把它呈現出來好不好"},{"start":13053.968,"end":13057.769,"text":"臨時提案有請我們的交通部陸委會相關部會要立即開放福建平坦往返臺灣的客運運輸"},{"start":13074.867,"end":13099.783,"text":"然後推動福建民眾赴台團客旅遊請大家回去的時候告訴即將接任的這個主委也好或者是其他相關的請他們無縫接軌好不好謝謝繼續我們請莊瑞雄莊瑞雄莊瑞雄委員不在吳思堯吳思堯吳思堯委員不在"},{"start":13100.543,"end":13109.169,"text":"紅森漢委員不在羅志強委員不在傅坤祺委員不在邱志偉委員不在謝一鳳委員不在楊瓊英委員不在游浩委員不在"},{"start":13123.17,"end":13134.834,"text":"臨德福臨德福臨德福委員不在羅明才羅明才羅明才委員不在王宏威王宏威王宏威委員不在現在請葉元之委員質詢我要請那個陸委會"},{"start":13151.377,"end":13154.674,"text":"好 交通部觀光署有請李副主委及周副署長 謝謝"},{"start":13162.934,"end":13189.315,"text":"兩位官員好我想問一下因為我們副總召到大陸去嘛大陸有一些開放然後又有一些對台的一些比較善意啦我想問一下到底現在我們政府的態度到底是什麼因為我這幾天看民進黨的很多回應我有點錯亂有的立委呢民進黨的立委是講說不要養人鼻息啊小恩小惠不要也罷這是民進黨很多立委的說法"},{"start":13189.835,"end":13199.786,"text":"那陳建仁院長的說法是說這是善意我們會研議之後再回應請問一下到底現在民進黨態度到底是什麼政府的態度到底是什麼可不可以比較明確告訴我們"},{"start":13202.557,"end":13225.763,"text":"但是就陸委會的部分對陸客來台觀光我們就是是樂見嘛那既然陸方已經有開了馬祖那這個我們就可以馬上來實施那其他有一些附條件的這個部分我們就要跨部會來做進一步所以你們認為是善意是不是陸委會他都認為是善意嘛那觀光署覺得是善意嗎"},{"start":13227.851,"end":13236.905,"text":"歡迎你們對於民進黨這些人一直說不要養人鼻息這個是養套殺這很爛不能接受你們的看法是什麼"},{"start":13238.672,"end":13266.207,"text":"每位委員的發言我們都是尊重的但你不認同嗎?我們沒有認同你認同?你認同?那你還是不認同?認同不認同那意見認不認同我講不出來喔認同不認同嘛因為看委員講的時候有從哪個角度啦就是講我剛剛那個角度好啦我又不為難你啦因為要官員用專業的立場去打臉那些意識形態立委也確實是不能讓你們去背這個鍋啦總而言之至少我看起來民進黨政府是對這個東西是善意的齁"},{"start":13266.747,"end":13284.014,"text":"那如果覺得是善意那我們要接求我這邊幾點建議第一個兩岸因為這個專業團體都有一些交流的需要就我了解一直卡在陸委會比如說像旅展之前有一些大陸的官員想要來參加台灣旅展交流被陸委會卡住"},{"start":13284.614,"end":13304.885,"text":"再來就是宗教今天是剛好媽祖嘛天上聖母聖誕有一些媽祖的交流也被陸委會卡住還有一些學術的交流也都被陸委會卡住那陸委會每一次都說這個要聯審但是有人去問過其他的主管機關都說就是陸委會在卡請問一下陸委會為什麼老是對於這種專業的團體交流這麼有意見但是為什麼"},{"start":13309.687,"end":13334.436,"text":"是意識形態還是怎樣據我知道並沒有像委員說的這樣你是說沒有啦但是我不要說可以提供給你數據啦就是這幾年老師現在就是專案審查嘛專案審查然後就一直卡一直卡嘛那我這邊建議啦因為現在以前在疫情前是通案審查沒有專案審查現在一個案子一個案子然後跳毛病阿為什麼現在疫情已經過這麼久了還要專案審查為什麼"},{"start":13338.382,"end":13351.35,"text":"這個人員的開放我想還是要循序漸進這沒有疫情的嘛 什麼循序漸進 你當初改成專案的理由已經消失了 為什麼還要繼續專案呢目前呢 整個案例 第二個問題 平潭到台灣 現在這個貨運還是有嘛 對不對對 貨運還是有嘛 現在只是把客運加進去 為什麼不行"},{"start":13363.26,"end":13370.311,"text":"我們現在兩岸之間 空運有沒有直航點 有沒有幾個15個 空運有15個 航運不行 為什麼"},{"start":13376.289,"end":13398.821,"text":"我不懂在摸集耶在空運兩邊的人員可以來往但是海運不行理由是什麼沒有不行是說你沒有開放嘛那雖然現在澎潭跟台灣的開放是有可能的客運開放我們過去就講航點恢復是就是看需求還有看那現在就是有需求現在是沒需求嗎"},{"start":13400.242,"end":13410.997,"text":"所以我們現在交通部這邊就是盡快在會上大家大家做處理那時間到了,所以你們什麼時候會有答案?盡快什麼時候會有答案?"},{"start":13418.367,"end":13430.075,"text":"我剛剛在辦公室看那個洪孟凱委員在生氣我想說他根本發那麼大的脾氣我才知道為什麼會發脾氣我們問的東西都問這麼具體然後答案都會呼嚨我們那我還在這邊4、5分鐘幹嘛啊真的欸 糟了糟了你知道我們第一次來內政委員會真的不知道原來這些官員是這麼呼嚨的餒謝謝糟了謝謝"},{"start":13443.066,"end":13463.632,"text":"好,非常謝謝葉研芝委員的質詢也辛苦了李副主委也辛苦了杭政司的韓司長也辛苦了我們交通部的周副署長昭偉真的也挺同情你們的這個政府的政策真的是在不服民意"},{"start":13466.021,"end":13493.819,"text":"登記發言的委員．除了不在場之外．其餘都已經發言完畢．詢答結束委員．黃仁、徐巧欣．林德福、莊瑞雄．王宏威所提的書面質詢．列入紀錄、刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆的部分．請相關單位在一週之內．以書面答覆並複製本會．本次的議程處理完畢．現在散會．大家辛苦了．謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}