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30.24,"end":555.474,"text":"這是調整補助比例嘛 原本73開的可能變成55開可能變成這樣的狀況 這些調整都合理但是怎麼樣來 可不是按照地方政府五級的制度來做調整嗎對啦 你會有一套調整規則 這我們都理解所以說新的法上路之後一定會磨合一段時間然後哪些項目做哪些調整才會比較明確你如果在這些項目確定之後你再來發臉書說哪些地方有可能會影響可能影響來自於地方政府不願意配合或怎麼樣那大家情有可原"},{"start":555.914,"end":571.108,"text":"但是在這個東西還沒出來之前我希望內政部謹言慎行好不好財化法部分是這樣最後一個那個國家公園法今天的主題啊這個院版什麼時候會出來我只問這個問題就好了我剛剛有提到我們現在比較大的困擾那個交通部跟農業部大概比較不是"},{"start":571.749,"end":576.252,"text":"就是罰則比較不是問題還有裡面有牽涉到原住民的狩獵的部分另外呢我們還有國土計劃法裡面的保育的問題會比較困擾一點我想這個你還是要有個時間表啦我們盡量在今年會提出到大院今年會提出來是吧好如果是今年的話這本期倒是蠻樂觀其成的希望盡速來執行希望今年我們可以把《國土公務員法》好久沒修正來做一次徹底的檢討可以嗎好謝謝部長不好意思耽誤時間了好謝謝牛許廷委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T09:59:15+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T09:59:16.958000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，劉部長有請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T09:59:16.958000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T09:59:18.916000+08:00","text":"牛委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T09:59:18.916000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T09:59:20.874000+08:00","text":"辛苦了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T09:59:20.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T09:59:49.458000+08:00","text":"幾件事情跟部長做一下探討，首先是剛剛很多委員關心，很多媒體記者在外面其實也都期待部長有明確的說法，就是說有關於身分證以及里長違反這樣子的條件，然後可能會被解職的狀況，本席理解民進黨政府有自己的主張，你剛剛有講基本上因為國籍法有規定，如果有外國國籍者，當然就不能在中華民國擔任公職，對不對？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T09:59:49.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T09:59:50.499000+08:00","text":"應該說法是這樣對不對？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T09:59:50.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T09:59:53.361000+08:00","text":"民選公職跟法定的公職都在內。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T09:59:53.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T09:59:53.801000+08:00","text":"都在內嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T09:59:53.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T09:59:55.322000+08:00","text":"因為不能有外國國籍嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T09:59:55.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T09:59:56.483000+08:00","text":"這是國籍法的規定。是的。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T09:59:57.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:00:06.532000+08:00","text":"我就問了，現在按照民進黨政府的解釋，基本上就把中華人民共和國視為外國，所以才會有適用國籍法的問題對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:00:06.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:00:14.559000+08:00","text":"是，因為從憲法到兩岸人民關係條例到國籍法、到戶籍法，還有剛剛我提到的，不管是從81年、89年或者是102年的函釋，都已經講得非常清楚。","quality":0.755},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:00:14.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:00:15.440000+08:00","text":"沒關係，你只有講互不隸屬，但它是不是外國，我認為是還有討論的空間。","quality":0.621},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:00:20.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:00:23.686000+08:00","text":"是，所以我也有提到行政院的函釋告訴我們……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:00:23.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:00:25.287000+08:00","text":"但是現在的解釋就是當成外國嘛！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:00:26.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:00:29.209000+08:00","text":"這個當然就是在外面從政治的角度解讀，這就是要變成兩國論。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:00:29.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:00:33.872000+08:00","text":"從事實上來看也是一樣，中華人民共和國是外國。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:00:33.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:00:42.217000+08:00","text":"我想請部長評論一下，如果它是外國的話，為什麼我們現在在立法院裡面，海基會跟陸委會放在內政委員會？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:00:42.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:00:43.798000+08:00","text":"為什麼它不是放在國防及外交委員會？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:00:43.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:00:43.818000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:00:46.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:00:48.463000+08:00","text":"海基會是民間團體。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:00:48.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:00:55.747000+08:00","text":"不是，海基會跟陸委會比如說預算審查有他們的時候，上個禮拜我們還在審他們的預算，他們為什麼被放在內政委員會？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:00:55.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:01:00.950000+08:00","text":"所以如果立法院要更改，我們沒有意見，因為陸委會的功能跟職掌不是由內政部來管轄的。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:01:01.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:01:10.096000+08:00","text":"你認為這是立法院的決定，好，沒關係，我再問，如果它是外國的話，因為互不隸屬的關係，這是你現在的主張，為什麼我們特別需要兩岸人民關係條例？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:01:12.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:01:13.803000+08:00","text":"你所有東西都比照國外，就用國籍法就好了。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:01:14.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:01:34.899000+08:00","text":"如果回歸到原來的兩岸人民關係條例的話，就是要回歸到中華民國開始有總統選舉的時候，那時候的中華民國總統是李登輝先生，他所提出的特殊國與國關係，所以變成兩岸人民關係一路修法以來都是用這樣的方向來處理，我們也是按照兩岸人民關係條例所賦予的國籍法跟戶籍法來做修正。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:01:37.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:01:39.111000+08:00","text":"現在實際上來講就是特殊的關係嘛！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:01:39.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:01:40.332000+08:00","text":"那它到底是國與國關係，但是什麼樣的關係……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:01:40.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:01:44.817000+08:00","text":"但是是特殊的國與國關係，大概李登輝總統他是這樣明示，當時李登輝總統是執政的總統，所以當時的兩岸人民關係條例的修正就一路這樣下來。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:01:44.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:01:49.161000+08:00","text":"部長，我打斷你一下，我知道你要講什麼，但是你剛剛講兩岸是特殊國與國關係，這是你自己的主張，還是行政院跟賴總統的主張？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:02:01.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:02:12.896000+08:00","text":"報告委員，對我來講，行政院的主張或是賴總統的主張不是可以由我來幫他們回應，但是在我來講，我們內政部所主導的，現在所存在的兩岸人民……對啦！","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:02:12.896000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T10:02:13.896000+08:00","text":"你講說它就是……所以現在是內政部的主張？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:02:13.896000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T10:02:14.896000+08:00","text":"但不確定？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:02:14.896000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T10:02:15.896000+08:00","text":"對不起！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:02:13.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:02:15.156000+08:00","text":"不是主張，不是主張……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:02:15.156000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T10:02:16.156000+08:00","text":"你今天代表內政部來備詢耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:02:15.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:02:23.259000+08:00","text":"內政部裡面是依照法律授予我們的權力去做行政的規範……","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:02:23.259000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T10:02:24.259000+08:00","text":"去做這樣子的詮釋嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:02:23.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:02:23.799000+08:00","text":"所以不是主張。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:02:24.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:02:25.560000+08:00","text":"不是主張？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:02:25.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:02:34.647000+08:00","text":"是我們依法行政，我們內政部的主導是國籍法跟戶籍法，國籍法跟戶籍法如果跟兩岸人民關係條例……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:02:34.647000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T10:02:35.647000+08:00","text":"但不是兩岸人民關係條例？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:02:35.647000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T10:02:36.647000+08:00","text":"衝突的時候怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:02:35.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:02:43.715000+08:00","text":"跟兩岸人民關係條例有模糊空間的時候，行政院的函釋……所以剛剛我在唸的部分有包括行政院的函釋。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:02:43.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:02:48.751000+08:00","text":"好，所以某一些層面，這樣子的政策指導就來自於行政院，對不對？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:02:48.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:02:51.572000+08:00","text":"就是說你可以用這樣的方式來認定，因為你拿的是行政院的函釋嘛！","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:02:52.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:03:24.248000+08:00","text":"今天我們談這個事情並不是本席要跟你辯論這個東西到底誰對、誰錯，沒有的，現在民進黨是執政黨，我們也沒有打算繼續當什麼煞車皮，但是我想講得很清楚的是，如果你要講它是特殊國與國關係，或者是你想要實踐所謂的兩國論，請你由上到下有一貫的東西，包含建請立法院把陸委會跟海基委員會移到國防及外交委員會，包含討論廢止所謂的兩岸人民關係條例，如果你真的要做，你就好好的去做，如果你考量有特殊的狀況，它必須承認是特殊的狀況，請你也不要雙標，這是本席的主張，好不好？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:03:24.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:03:26.049000+08:00","text":"這是委員的主張，還是整個……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:03:26.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T10:03:27.049000+08:00","text":"這是我的主張。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:03:27.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:03:29.009000+08:00","text":"整個國民黨團這樣的主張？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:03:29.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:03:29.489000+08:00","text":"這是我的主張。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:03:29.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:03:54.018000+08:00","text":"因為現在在立法院裡面，國民黨團其實是占多數，它的發言權以及立法的權力都比民進黨團來得高，那我了解的立場很簡單，就是臺灣是法治的國家，行政權是受立法權來規範的，我們現在在處理的過程當中，如果是屬於可以被授權的行政規範的話，內政部可以主導的部分由內政部來主導。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:03:54.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:03:55.419000+08:00","text":"所以你就是被行政院授權的嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:03:55.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:04:02.865000+08:00","text":"內政部如果不能主導，因為它要跨部會，所謂的兩岸人民關係條例的主管機關是陸委會，我們內政部是國籍跟戶籍……","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:04:02.865000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T10:04:03.865000+08:00","text":"沒關係……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:04:03.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:04:06.588000+08:00","text":"我們一定要讓行政院來做它的解釋機關。對啊！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:04:06.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:04:07.609000+08:00","text":"如果不行的話，每個法條……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:04:07.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:04:11.771000+08:00","text":"目前看起來，行政院的解釋就是偏剛剛部長的講法，要不然你也沒有辦法這麼流暢地把它講得很清楚，顯然你們上下都串好了，對不對？","quality":0.673},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:04:11.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:04:12.131000+08:00","text":"我想不是偏……我們按照……對不起！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:04:12.131000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T10:04:13.131000+08:00","text":"有點笑場。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:04:13.131000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T10:04:14.131000+08:00","text":"沒關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:04:12.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:04:13.072000+08:00","text":"我們按照它給我們的公文，每一個字、每一個字，字句斟酌……","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:04:13.072000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T10:04:14.072000+08:00","text":"所以是來自於行政院的函釋嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:04:13.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:04:14.292000+08:00","text":"而且不是我個人的主張，是我們內政部的法制單位跟我們的主管單位的主張，把它寫成白紙黑字的作法，否則公務員無法依法有據來行事。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:04:36.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:04:58.434000+08:00","text":"好，可以了，這一段質詢我讓你講很長的一段時間，你總得讓我把我們的說法講清楚，其實本席的概念無他，中央政府現在是行政院的函釋，我們就當成是行政院的詮釋，如果它這樣的主張，它有這樣子的說法，這個當然大家可以尊重，但是問題就是，其他的部分請你比照辦理，不要做半套吃自助餐，這樣子好像不太好，好不好？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:04:58.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:05:05.056000+08:00","text":"本席的立場就是這樣，這個題目可能才剛開始，未來不管是卓院長怎麼去講，甚至賴總統怎麼去講，這個我們就看著辦，這是第一個題目。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:05:05.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:05:32.869000+08:00","text":"第二個題目是財劃法，部長在臉書上的說法跟你剛剛在答詢的說法，落差就蠻大的，因為你在臉書的說法是直接講預算會減少28%，然後很遺憾這些東西要不見了，你們臉書的寫法是比較強硬，可是剛剛在回答好幾位委員的質詢的時候，你有講這只是可能，到底是可能，還是確定？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:05:34.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:05:47.743000+08:00","text":"報告委員，114年的部分，如果行政院三讀通過整個行政院計畫的話，那114年的所有預算就是按照委員會審查或者是到立法院院會審查的結果來處理。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:05:47.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:05:49.084000+08:00","text":"是按照審查的結果嘛！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:05:49.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:06:03.996000+08:00","text":"對，但是我要跟委員報告，財劃法在去年年底通過的時候，我們的會計單位會設算，因為大家都知道，我們設算、概算都要前9個月或前10個月，他就會想如果不是114年，是115年的部分……","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:06:04.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:06:06.778000+08:00","text":"所以到時候就有一個28%的說法，這個討論很多次了。是的。","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:06:07.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:06:10.561000+08:00","text":"但是部長，你有接收到來自於上面的指令嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:06:10.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:06:10.561000+08:00","text":"比如說會砍28%？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:06:12.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:06:20.461000+08:00","text":"我們是按照主計處告訴我們設算28%的狀況之下去設算一下，但是並沒有說什麼時候要出來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:06:20.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:06:30.272000+08:00","text":"部長，你知道上禮拜在財政委員會討論的時候，不管是行政院副秘書長，或者是上個禮拜在這邊的行政院秘書長，包含主計，都講沒有要刪除28%這件事，你知道這回事嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:06:34.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:06:41.663000+08:00","text":"我想28%刪除這件事情，不是用刪除，應該是說比例上的分配會分配到地方政府……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:06:41.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:06:46.267000+08:00","text":"不是用刪除，為什麼你在內政部的臉書上可以講這些東西我們要被迫減少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:06:47.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:06:48.588000+08:00","text":"它如果不是刪除，為什麼叫被迫減少？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:06:49.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:06:54.255000+08:00","text":"被迫減少就是內政部的預算被迫28%不見了，可能會到地方政府去啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:06:54.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:06:58.780000+08:00","text":"你現在又講可能，你在臉書上講「我們被迫要削減了」，你可沒有講「可能」。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:06:58.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:07:03.805000+08:00","text":"所以我剛剛有跟許委員回答說，我回去檢討一下我們在臉書上面的遣辭用字。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:07:04.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:07:06.228000+08:00","text":"你現在又要檢討遣辭用字？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:07:06.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:07:11.272000+08:00","text":"是，真的是這樣子，報告委員，我們在處理預算的過程當中……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:07:11.272000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T10:07:12.272000+08:00","text":"至少你願意承認……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:07:11.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:07:34.872000+08:00","text":"本來就是會有一來一往，然後三讀通過時候的三讀通過版本，現在如果大院跟行政院已經都……我不知道溝通好、協調好了沒有，就是說114年是按照原來的部分，這件事情對我們來講，就是我們在去年年底發布的時候太快，既然太快的話，我們就願意檢討那個遣辭用字，就這樣。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:07:34.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:08:06.421000+08:00","text":"好，你要檢討遣辭用字，我們希望儘快看到這一篇臉書貼文的文字修正，這個你要檢討其實可以……我隨便舉個例子，比如說，這段時間國土署當然很支持我們桃園，通過一條變一道路這樣子的經費，那他就有特別講，如果因為財劃法有調整，缺少的部分其實要由地方增加的統籌分配款來補足，其實這就是一個比較健康的對話，因為這個一定會事權調整，這本席完全理解，不太可能中央少了一大塊，三千多億的預算，你要自己把這個錢變出來，然後地方什麼都不增加，不對的，只是調整補助比例嘛！","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:08:06.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:08:11.964000+08:00","text":"原本還七三開的，可能變成五五開，可能變成這樣的狀況，這些調整都合理，但是怎麼樣來講……","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:08:11.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:08:14.665000+08:00","text":"可能是按照地方政府五級的制度來做調整。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:08:14.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:08:23.150000+08:00","text":"對啦，你會有一套調整規則，這我們都理解，所以新的法上路之後，一定會磨合一段時間，然後哪些項目做哪些調整才會比較明確。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:08:23.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:08:34.097000+08:00","text":"如果在這些項目確定之後，你再來發臉書說哪些地方有可能會影響，可能影響來自於地方政府不願意配合或怎麼樣，那大家情有可原，但是在這個東西還沒出來之前，我希望內政部謹言慎行，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:08:34.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:08:35.178000+08:00","text":"財劃法的部分是這樣。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:08:35.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:08:39.142000+08:00","text":"最後一個，今天的主題國家公園法，院版什麼時候會出來？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:08:39.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:08:39.963000+08:00","text":"我只問這個問題就好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:08:40.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:08:48.050000+08:00","text":"我剛剛有提到，我們現在比較大的困擾，交通部跟農業部大概比較不是問題，就是罰則比較不是問題，樣態還有裡面有牽涉到原住民狩獵的部分；另外，我們還有國土計畫法裡面的保育問題會比較困擾一點，我想委員會很清楚……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:08:48.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:08:48.150000+08:00","text":"沒關係，你還是要有一個時間表，因為你如果講說……","quality":0.45},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:08:48.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:08:48.510000+08:00","text":"我們會儘量在今年提出到大院。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:08:48.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:08:48.610000+08:00","text":"今年會提出來是嗎？是。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:08:48.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:08:50.452000+08:00","text":"好，如果是今年的話，本席倒是蠻樂觀其成，希望儘速來執行，希望今年我們可以把好久沒修正的國家公園法做一次澈底的檢討，可以嗎？好。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T10:08:50.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:08:50.712000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長，不好意思耽誤了時間，謝謝。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T10:08:50.712000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T10:08:51.712000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T10:08:50.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T10:08:51.252000+08:00","text":"謝謝牛煦庭委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T10:08:51.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T10:08:54.609143+08:00","text":"再來我們請李柏毅委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}