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號召者剛剛已經自我承認了那麼號召的內容是否涉及恐嚇內容 三或他人犯罪違背法令或抗拒合法命令號召者有強迫脅迫的強暴脅迫的意圖是不是你們認為要是號召者本身有這些具體的要件達成才能夠構成"},{"start":83.862,"end":107.039,"text":"這個是我們那個本部的報告是這樣很好所以呢未來享有民主的集會遊行自由的權利的同時那麼號召者或聚眾者本身他的延遲的內容和他的行為就要接受這些要件的檢視好請教廳長齁那麼司法院的書面報告說若警器號召民眾上街對抗司法審判"},{"start":108.339,"end":131.406,"text":"為進而對特定的司法人員等具體對象為犯罪或關說行為你們認為如果沒有後面的就不算嘛 是不是這樣是所以要看有沒有對於司法人員等具體的對象進行犯罪或關說等行為好 那麼剛好因為林特聘教授在場我剛剛拜讀了您的之前寫的文章在第十一頁 第十一頁的第二欄"},{"start":132.706,"end":157.066,"text":"第二列那在上面您說根據美國聯邦法制呢他說行為與法庭的空間距離遠近其對司法程序所造成的衝擊程度將藐視法庭分成直接跟間接就這個美國的立法例來講你認為這裡面有包含了在司法審判空間的法庭外的這些經過合法申請的集會遊行嗎"},{"start":159.033,"end":185.03,"text":"這邊要跟委員報告最主要是因為法庭剛剛那個黃委員有以這個美國的墮胎權的這個最高法院的爭議來表示說其實在法庭外也是可以進行集會遊行那我覺得這個講法有一點誤導視聽因為最高法院他其實涉及政策的形成所以其實這些抗議的民眾第一個他是有一個空間的距離他並不是緊貼於聯邦最高法院"},{"start":185.41,"end":212.654,"text":"第二個他集會遊行的地點還有他的時間都是經過嚴格的管制所以並不是說個案正在做裁決如果說現在本案的這個抗告與否正在做是不是要做羈押的決定或者現在內部個案的審理正在進行這個時候當然你在法庭外的遊行會對內部的司法從業人員造成莫大的心理壓力尤其是在對內部作證的證人所以這個是絕對是妨害司法公正的行為"},{"start":213.354,"end":228.426,"text":"那剛剛他提到的這個案件跟我們目前本市的這個公聽會提到的這個案件兩個是完全不一樣的事情所以我覺得這個有一點移花接木了有點可惜所以說如果合法申請的機會有請並不在法院或相關司法機構的管制範圍以外尤其是訴求"},{"start":232.829,"end":256.065,"text":"也就是說如果你今天出來集會遊行那比如說如果這個民眾黨或國民黨或者是民進黨來號召群眾上街那麼他的目的是制定防害司法公正罪依林教授的意見那分成三階段來執行這個絕對不會有干擾司法的問題但如果今天遊行的訴求是正在審理羈押的某一位被告或犯罪嫌疑人"},{"start":256.405,"end":262.989,"text":"他的訴求是立刻釋放否則的話要放火燒毀地監署那這當然會有其他刑事犯罪的可能"},{"start":286.445,"end":294.116,"text":"那時候我所知道的是在做積壓庭的裁定好 那麼請問 院檢辦案有沒有因此而感受到壓力司法公正有沒有受到影響 請問廳長廳長您覺得呢"},{"start":297.504,"end":324.089,"text":"這樣會不會有壓力如果從結果來看是沒有受到影響從結果來看是沒有受到影響的很好從結果來看是沒有受到影響我們知道昨天呢高院也就做成了一個裁定了好那麼在就在前天民眾黨自由廣場電郭基啊都要抗議司法不公請問就這個訴求的內容是要求是因為妨礙司法公正罪嗎請問林教授您從一個民眾的認知這個所謂的司法不公是認為"},{"start":325.54,"end":343.133,"text":"因為他們要求要制定妨礙司法公正罪還是對個案的結果有不同意見對所以這個就是集會遊行首先他的申請跟他的內容比如說他申請的訴求可能是挺司法正義希望能夠這個建立人民對司法的信賴那集會遊行固然是合法這個沒有問題"},{"start":343.894,"end":364.413,"text":"但是你今天負責集會遊行的人還有你的單位在整個集會遊行的過程中是不是有脫序或者是其他現行犯個案不當的言論那這個部分當然不在原來申請的範圍內這個可能會有其他刑事犯罪的可能我相信昨天大部分參加的群眾都是很和平的雖然情緒比較高漲但我們看一下下一張"},{"start":365.214,"end":385.65,"text":"但是我們看到有一個統促黨成員參與集會要維護一中框架甚至裡面的標語說抗議司法破壞要釋放高安國請問部長 曾部長誰是高安國下一張下一張高安國是一位退休 退役的一個將領是 那他是參加哪個政黨這個參加統促黨"},{"start":389.789,"end":402.497,"text":"好 那麼我們看到 那往下看喔那麼高安國呢 他目前呢 他所說的呢目前退降退中共發展組織高檢署偵辦羈押中 是嗎 有這樣的情況嗎有沒有這樣的情況這是報載啊這部分"},{"start":411.374,"end":433.03,"text":"是否有偵辦那個高興的一個退價這部分現在沒辦法證實沒辦法證實 好那我們來看一下那如果說他在偵辦羈押當中那麼他們的成員去要求釋放高安國那應該是羈押中吧 他才會要求釋放這樣的情況是不是有涉及對個案對於司法機關進行施壓"},{"start":434.316,"end":453.674,"text":"這個是在我們的一個草案這是對一個有一個施壓的行為施壓的行為我們這個是有妨害司法公正的一個問題好那我們再來看除了他之外統促黨已經被認為危害民主憲政內政務擬提政黨解散目前看到了統促黨涉收中共7400萬借選國安法他違反了"},{"start":457.257,"end":470.626,"text":"國安違反法公共五案 反勝法共一案 還有違反兩案條例 組織犯罪等條例有134人請問法務部長 如果內政部有這樣的一個提出是不是間接在我們法務部檢警調人員的調查基礎之上"},{"start":471.468,"end":493.317,"text":"如果涉及到違法的 當然我們檢調就會蒐證好 那麼現在蒐證的情況我們請看一下下一張那麼就在 下一張就是我們統促黨的這個統促黨的榮譽主席林鄭捷在前天他說如果檢察官到最後交代不了太可惡我們大家就到地檢署放一把火把地檢署燒掉請問這樣的發言內容有涉及恐嚇及三貨大人犯罪"},{"start":495.079,"end":523.678,"text":"這部分我想涉及犯罪 我想檢調就會蒐證但是我們不希望就是說機位有請有偷襲的一個行為就是有如果說聚眾是強暴脅迫啦那這部分或者是善後貪婪 刑法第153條善後貪婪犯罪很好 你都念出來了主張火燒地檢署有涉及刑法或反滲透法刑法第151條 刑法第153條 反滲透法第6條我們要如何保護言論自由 同時要兼顧國安有沒有修法的必要"},{"start":524.438,"end":545.533,"text":"這些條文內容我們看對照反滲透法還有刑法151 刑法153這些內容因為反滲透法第6條說刑法149至153的集會或集會遊行第31條者要加重其刑所以表示縱使參加合法的集會遊行若有違反了反滲透法第6條所規定的四涉刑法的這些相關條款還是構成犯罪對不對"},{"start":547.732,"end":569.313,"text":"這份是構成犯罪好那最後呢我的訴求就很簡單我們希望呢依法偵辦依法審查審判維持司法公正勿受影響也希望你們嚴查國安案件防止中共代理人滲透可以做到嗎這份我們全力好謝謝部長謝謝廳長也謝謝教授好謝謝鍾昭偉的群打"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:34:02.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:34:07.077000+08:00","text":"主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:34:08.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:34:13.944000+08:00","text":"有請鄭部長及司法院李廳長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:34:14.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:34:15.165000+08:00","text":"請鄭部長、李廳長。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:34:17.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:34:23.214000+08:00","text":"如果有就教於林教授的部分，方便的話，林教授願意回答，也請教授。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:34:25.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:34:41.819000+08:00","text":"今天我們要討論的妨害司法公正的要件其實應予明確，剛剛有委員說明我們委員會之前對於妨害司法公正的內容也經過討論了，但是要件如何，我們希望能夠進一步釐清。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:34:42.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:34:54.367000+08:00","text":"另外，在參與、享有國內民主的集會遊行權利、行使言論自由，但是如果有境外敵對勢力的國內代理人也參與其中，要如何處理？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:34:56.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:35:21.330000+08:00","text":"首先請教部長，簡報上是法務部的書面報告，您說對於今天的專報「號召」的部分，號召者剛剛已經自我承認了，「視號召之內容是否涉及恐嚇內容、煽惑他人犯罪、違背法令或抗拒合法命令，號召者有無強暴脅迫之意圖……」，是不是你們認為要視號召者本身有無這些具體的要件達成，才能夠構成？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-01-13T09:35:23.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:35:25.004000+08:00","text":"本部的報告是這樣子。很好。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:35:25.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:35:39.034000+08:00","text":"所以未來享有民主的集會遊行自由權利的同時，號召者或聚眾者本身的言詞內容和他的行為就要接受這些要件的檢視。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:35:39.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:35:54.741000+08:00","text":"請教廳長，司法院的書面報告說「若僅係『號召民眾上街對抗司法審判』，未進而對特定的司法人員等具體對象為犯罪或關說等行為……」，你們認為如果沒有後面的就不算，是不是這樣？是。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:35:55.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:36:01.263000+08:00","text":"所以要看有沒有對於司法人員等具體對象進行犯罪或關說等行為。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:36:02.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:36:24.337000+08:00","text":"剛好林特聘教授在場，我剛剛拜讀了您之前寫的文章，在第11頁第2欄第2列，您說根據美國聯邦法制，依行為與法庭的空間距離遠近，及其對司法程序所造成的衝擊程度，將藐視法庭分為直接與間接。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:36:24.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:36:36.066000+08:00","text":"就美國的立法例來講，你認為這裡面有包含了在司法審判空間法庭外經過合法申請的集會遊行嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林教授志潔","start":"2025-01-13T09:36:38.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:37:11.736000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，最主要是因為法庭……剛剛黃委員以美國的墮胎權在最高法院的爭議，來表示其實在法庭外也是可以進行集會遊行，我覺得這個講法有一點誤導視聽，因為最高法院其實涉及政策的形成，所以這些抗議的民眾，第一個，他們有一個空間的距離，並不是緊貼於聯邦最高法院；第二個，他們集會遊行的地點及時間都是經過嚴格的管制，所以並不是個案正在做裁決。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林教授志潔","start":"2025-01-13T09:37:11.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:37:31.654000+08:00","text":"如果現在本案的抗告與否正在進行是不是要做羈押的決定，或者現在內部個案的審理正在進行，這個時候當然在法庭外的遊行會對內部的司法從業人員造成莫大的心理壓力，尤其是在對內部作證的證人，所以這個絕對是妨害司法公正的行為。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林教授志潔","start":"2025-01-13T09:37:32.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:37:42.822000+08:00","text":"剛剛他提到的案件跟目前本次公聽會提到的案件，兩個是完全不一樣的事情，所以我覺得有一點移花接木了，有點可惜。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:37:43.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:37:47.186000+08:00","text":"所以如果合法申請的集會遊行並不在法院或相關司法機關的管制範圍……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"林教授志潔","start":"2025-01-13T09:37:47.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:37:47.406000+08:00","text":"對，尤其是訴求。訴求。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"林教授志潔","start":"2025-01-13T09:37:51.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:38:09.401000+08:00","text":"也就是說，今天出來集會遊行，比如民眾黨、國民黨或民進黨來號召群眾上街，其目的是制定妨害司法公正罪，依林教授的意見，分成三階段來執行，這個絕對不會有干擾司法的問題。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"林教授志潔","start":"2025-01-13T09:38:09.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:38:21.969000+08:00","text":"但如果今天遊行是針對正在審理羈押的某一位被告或犯罪嫌疑人，訴求立刻將其釋放，否則的話，要放火燒毀地檢署，這當然會有其他刑事犯罪的可能。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:38:21.969000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:38:31.343333+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:38:31.343333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:38:40.717667+08:00","text":"我們看一下，在2004年國民黨前立委邱毅帶頭衝撞高雄地院，最後判刑14個月確定，他的內容就包括「我們宣傳車衝……人閃開……」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:38:40.717667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:38:50.092000+08:00","text":"另外，我們看到就在去年年底，也有本院的委員在臺北地方法院跟警方推擠，看得出是晚上，我所知道的是，那時候是在做羈押庭的裁定。","quality":0.218},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:38:50.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:38:51.934000+08:00","text":"請問，院檢辦案有沒有因此而感受到壓力？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:38:52.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:38:53.056000+08:00","text":"司法公正有沒有受到影響？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:38:53.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:38:53.096000+08:00","text":"請問廳長，您覺得呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:38:56.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:38:56.864000+08:00","text":"這樣會不會有壓力？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李廳長釱任","start":"2025-01-13T09:38:57.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:39:00.065000+08:00","text":"如果從結果來看是沒有受到影響。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:39:00.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:39:03.845000+08:00","text":"從結果來看是沒有受到影響的，很好，從結果來看是沒有受到影響。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:39:03.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:39:07.826000+08:00","text":"我們知道昨天高院已經作成一個裁定了。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:39:09.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:39:18.928000+08:00","text":"就在前天民眾黨在自由廣場舉辦「釘孤枝」的活動來抗議司法不公，請問這個訴求的內容是因為要制定妨害司法公正罪嗎？","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:39:18.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:39:29.484000+08:00","text":"請問林教授，您從民眾的認知，這個所謂的司法不公是因為他們要求要制定妨害司法公正罪，還是對個案的結果有不同意見？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林教授志潔","start":"2025-01-13T09:39:29.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:39:56.987000+08:00","text":"關於這個集會遊行，首先是它的申請跟內容，比如它申請的訴求可能是挺司法正義，希望能夠建立人民對司法的信賴，集會遊行固然是合法的，這個沒有問題；但是今天負責集會遊行的人及單位在整個集會遊行的過程中，如果有脫序或者是其他現行犯個案不當的言論，這個部分當然不在原來申請的範圍內，可能會有其他刑事犯罪的可能。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:39:57.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:40:18.025000+08:00","text":"我相信昨天大部分參加的群眾都是很和平的，雖然情緒比較高漲，但我們看到有一個統促黨成員參與集會，主張要維護一中框架，甚至裡面的標語寫著「抗議司法迫害釋放高安國」，請問鄭部長，誰是高安國？","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-01-13T09:40:18.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:40:23.409000+08:00","text":"高安國是一位退役的將領。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:40:23.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:40:24.570000+08:00","text":"是，他是參加哪個政黨？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-01-13T09:40:24.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:40:28.789000+08:00","text":"參加統促黨。好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:40:31.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:40:40.697000+08:00","text":"對於高安國，媒體標題寫道「退將替中共發展組織高檢署偵辦羈押中」，是嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:40:40.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:40:40.857000+08:00","text":"有這樣的情況嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:40:40.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:40:41.317000+08:00","text":"有沒有這樣的情況？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:40:41.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:40:41.357000+08:00","text":"這是報載啊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-01-13T09:40:50.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:40:57.039000+08:00","text":"是否有偵辦高姓退將這部分，現在沒辦法證實。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:40:57.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:40:57.539000+08:00","text":"沒辦法證實，好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:40:58.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:41:12.030000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下，如果他在偵辦羈押當中，他們的成員去要求釋放高安國，他應該是羈押中，他們才會要求釋放，這樣的情況是不是有涉及針對個案對司法機關進行施壓？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-01-13T09:41:14.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:41:22.665000+08:00","text":"根據我們的草案，有施壓的行為，是有妨害司法公正的問題。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:41:22.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:41:28.810000+08:00","text":"好，我們再來看，除了他之外，統促黨已經被認為危害民主憲政，內政部擬提政黨解散。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:41:29.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:41:41.681000+08:00","text":"目前看到統促黨涉收中共7,400萬介選，違反國安法共5案，違反反滲透法計1案，還有違反兩岸條例、組織犯罪條例等案共計134人。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:41:42.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:41:49.606000+08:00","text":"請問法務部部長，如果內政部有這樣的提出，是不是建基在法務部檢調人員的調查基礎之上？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-01-13T09:41:50.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:41:54.150000+08:00","text":"如果有涉及到違法，當然我們檢調就會蒐證。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:41:54.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:41:55.550000+08:00","text":"好，請看一下現在蒐證的情況。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:42:00.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:42:12.297000+08:00","text":"統促黨的榮譽主席林正杰在前天說「如果檢察官到最後交代不了、太可惡，我們大家就到地檢署放一把火把地檢署燒掉」，請問這樣的發言內容有無涉及恐嚇或煽惑他人犯罪？","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-01-13T09:42:14.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:42:26.287000+08:00","text":"這部分涉及犯罪，我想檢調就會蒐證，但是我們不希望集會遊行有脫序的行為，如果有聚眾施以強暴脅迫或者違反刑法第一百五十三條煽惑他人犯罪，這部分……","quality":0.569},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:42:30.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:42:41.277000+08:00","text":"很好，你都唸出來了，主張火燒地檢署有無涉及違反刑法或反滲透法，包括刑法第一百五十一條、刑法第一百五十三條、反滲透法第六條，我們要如何保護言論自由同時兼顧國安？","quality":0.764},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:42:41.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:42:42.658000+08:00","text":"有沒有修法的必要？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:42:45.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:43:04.533000+08:00","text":"對照反滲透法及刑法第一百五十一條、第一百五十三條等內容，反滲透法第六條規定「任何人受滲透來源之指示、委託或資助，而犯刑法第一百四十九條至第一百五十三條或集會遊行法第三十一條之罪者，加重其刑至二分之一」，表示縱使參加合法的集會遊行，若有違反了反滲透法第六條所規定的涉犯刑法等相關條款，還是構成犯罪，對不對？","quality":0.536},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-01-13T09:43:06.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:43:07.693000+08:00","text":"這部分是構成犯罪。好。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:43:08.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:43:22.227000+08:00","text":"最後我的訴求很簡單，我們希望依法偵查、審判，維持司法公正勿受影響，也希望你們嚴查國安案件，防止中共代理人滲透，可以做到嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-01-13T09:43:22.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:43:22.608000+08:00","text":"這部分我們全力以赴。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-13T09:43:23.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:43:25.591000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝部長，謝謝廳長，也謝謝教授。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:43:27.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T09:43:27.613000+08:00","text":"謝謝鍾召委的詢答，謝謝林教授。","quality":0.308},{"speaker":"主席（鍾委員佳濱）","start":"2025-01-13T09:43:28.113000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:43:31.541571+08:00","text":"接下來有請羅委員智強發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:43:31.841571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:43:35.555857+08:00","text":"上臺發言之前，我先程序發言。請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:43:35.855857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:43:41.570143+08:00","text":"我先要跟主席說，第一個，主席，你不騙人是會死嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:43:41.870143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:43:43.870143+08:00","text":"不騙人皮很癢嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:43:44.170143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:43:46.455857+08:00","text":"不騙人就會很痛嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:43:46.755857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:43:50.755857+08:00","text":"沒關係，程序發言講完，你再回答嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:43:51.055857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:43:52.055857+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:43:52.355857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:43:59.784429+08:00","text":"今天本來是吳宗憲召委要來主持會議的，你是怎麼去跟他「喬」的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:44:00.084429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:44:09.513000+08:00","text":"你跟他千拜託萬拜託說今天我們要來排稅審法，搞了半天，你要搞什麼鍾小刀嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:44:09.813000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:44:16.384429+08:00","text":"然後搞了半天、求了半天，今天排一個什麼奇怪的題目啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:44:16.684429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:44:23.255857+08:00","text":"但你的人很奇怪沒有關係，你要排奇怪的題目，這第一個。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:44:23.555857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:44:36.127286+08:00","text":"第二個，我要跟各位說，雖然你是召委、你是主席啦，你要邀請誰，看你高興，但是鍾佳濱你演都不演，演都不演啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:44:36.427286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:44:48.141571+08:00","text":"今天是找法務部跟司法院來問問看，「111釘孤枝」有沒有妨害司法公正、是不是現行犯，關林志潔什麼事啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:44:48.441571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:44:49.870143+08:00","text":"沒有關係啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:44:50.170143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:45:12.741571+08:00","text":"你真的要找一個綠色的代表來幫你助拳，你自己講不出話來，口才差、沒自信，你知道官員不敢護航你，你找一個綠友友來護航你，你這麼沒自信，你再請吳宗憲召委幫你排另外一個中立的學者啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:45:13.041571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:45:17.613000+08:00","text":"演都不演，今天排這個荒腔走板的專報。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:45:17.913000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:45:32.770143+08:00","text":"剛剛你所謂的鍾佳濱代表坐在底下，他發言我直接出去了，聽都不想聽，有什麼資格、有什麼中立性、有什麼公正性坐在這個地方？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:45:33.070143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:45:36.498714+08:00","text":"有什麼代表性坐在這個地方？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:45:36.798714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:45:49.941571+08:00","text":"你今天如果請宗憲召委也排一個中立學者坐在這個地方我就沒意見，你要跟我講什麼不是公聽會對不對？對啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:45:50.241571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:45:52.241571+08:00","text":"專報不是公聽會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:45:52.541571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:45:55.398714+08:00","text":"請問羅委員的程序問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:45:55.698714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:45:58.270143+08:00","text":"我講完，主席不要插嘴。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:45:58.570143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:46:01.141571+08:00","text":"你的程序問題在哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:46:01.441571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:46:10.013000+08:00","text":"你愛怎麼回答就怎麼回答，我的問題就是在我剛剛的程序發言內容裡面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:46:10.313000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:46:11.455857+08:00","text":"問完了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:46:11.755857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:46:14.898714+08:00","text":"我沒問完，抱歉，我要繼續問。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:46:15.198714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:46:43.484429+08:00","text":"這才是今天我覺得荒謬的事情啦，你當個召委，你主持得不中立，連演都不演，過去班班可考，我直接跟召委說啦，排什麼民眾上街集會是妨害司法公正現行犯，我舉個更棒的題目建議你啦，鍾佳濱持油壓剪毀損公物，是不是檢警不敢辦的現行犯？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:46:43.784429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:46:50.355857+08:00","text":"12月20號到現在23天了，我待會就問部長，我先直接告訴你，洩題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:46:50.655857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:46:59.227286+08:00","text":"那你乾脆排一個專報，柯建銘關說司法是不是妨害司法公正罪的現行犯……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:46:59.527286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:47:02.670143+08:00","text":"接下來請羅委員智強發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:47:02.970143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:47:10.398714+08:00","text":"抱歉，我程序發言沒結束，學你的，連程序發言我都是學你的。抱歉……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:47:10.698714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:47:13.555857+08:00","text":"我連程序發言都學你的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:47:13.855857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:47:16.141571+08:00","text":"主席沒有像你這樣……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:47:16.441571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:47:23.584429+08:00","text":"沒關係，你要不要請你們民進黨立委提所謂的停止討論動議？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:47:23.884429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:47:25.313000+08:00","text":"我學你的啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:47:25.613000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:47:39.613000+08:00","text":"我還沒程序發言結束，你不要打亂我，你們的柯建銘盤古開天可以講一小時，我告訴你，我不會講到一小時，我沒他的本事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:47:39.913000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:47:42.770143+08:00","text":"後面有其他委員要發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:47:43.070143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:47:46.498714+08:00","text":"沒有關係，我告訴你，那你不用……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:47:46.798714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:47:48.513000+08:00","text":"您要調順序嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:47:48.813000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:48:14.527286+08:00","text":"我跟你講，不用，我待會一樣發言質詢，我待會是對官員，我今天對你，我對你，你不要來跟我講我程序發言來限制我，我告訴你，很簡單，你們的柯建銘一講一小時，你有本事下次抗議他，你抗議完他之後，你要約束我，我讓你約束。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:48:14.827286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:48:25.113000+08:00","text":"我今天跟你講，我也不要跟你在那邊客氣，有什麼好客氣的，跟你鍾佳濱有什麼好客氣的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:48:25.413000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:48:34.270143+08:00","text":"一個這麼珍貴的司法及法制委員會的排案，你排這什麼狗屁倒灶的題目啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:48:34.570143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:48:35.570143+08:00","text":"扯爆了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:48:35.870143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:48:36.870143+08:00","text":"扯爆了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:48:37.170143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:48:44.884429+08:00","text":"我今天來這裡就是說看你怎麼扯、怎麼糗、怎麼自己打臉自己，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:48:45.184429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:48:46.184429+08:00","text":"好，那麼……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:48:46.484429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:48:50.198714+08:00","text":"你不要打斷我，你越打斷我越講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:48:50.498714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:48:51.927286+08:00","text":"你問完了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:48:52.227286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:49:13.370143+08:00","text":"你不要打斷我，你不要打斷我，程序發言提問是我的權利，你要跟我講說我發言太久沒有關係，你先去約束柯建銘，每次講話20分鐘、30分鐘、1小時，用這種所謂冗長發言，我學他、我學他、我學他。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:49:13.670143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:49:38.241571+08:00","text":"所以我還是一樣，今天的專報題目我真的給我們很愛自己打臉自己的鍾佳濱一個建議，今天專報題目就是鍾佳濱持油壓剪毀損公務是不是現行犯，而且是檢警不敢辦的現行犯，12月20號到現在已經23天啦，辦一下吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:49:38.541571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:49:39.684429+08:00","text":"現行犯耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:49:39.984429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:49:43.127286+08:00","text":"他不是現行犯誰是現行犯？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:49:43.427286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:49:46.284429+08:00","text":"鐵錚錚的現行犯，辦不辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:49:46.584429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:49:47.584429+08:00","text":"辦不辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:49:47.884429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:50:53.598714+08:00","text":"第二個，今天專報題目，我覺得鍾佳濱，我唯一肯定你的就是你也是用心良苦，今天專報題目我知道你心裡本來想要定的是柯建銘關說司法是不是妨害司法公正的現行犯，我知道你想定這個題目，因為你不提這個題目，我還沒有機會再多講一下柯建銘耶，柯建銘就是中華民國、我們臺灣最有名的關說司法者，今天妨害司法公正罪的立法就是因為有柯建銘這種人在，我們今天才急急切切，不讓權貴可以繼續關說司法，所以我知道鍾佳濱召委用心良苦，他不爽柯建銘非常久了，我知道，所以拿這個狗屁的題目來提醒大家不要忘了關說司法王柯建銘，你了不起啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:50:53.898714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:51:12.755857+08:00","text":"然後我覺得你可能心裡還想再定第二個子題是邱太三關說司法是不是妨害司法公正的現行犯，我知道你也想定這個題目，因為你可能也跟邱太三有什麼恩怨。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:51:13.055857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:51:44.484429+08:00","text":"再來呢，你可能是想要說邱議瑩腳踹法務部大門是不是破壞公務的現行犯，你民進黨這種的比比皆是，誇張離譜至極，妨害司法公正的所謂的罄竹難書，你鍾佳濱今天有臉拿妨害司法公正罪現行犯當專案報告、當專題報告，我佩服你的臉皮，更佩服你的勇氣，無比佩服你。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:51:44.784429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:51:53.070143+08:00","text":"還是同樣的那句話，我還是要回頭講，沒見過這麼不中立、不公正的主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:51:53.370143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:51:55.370143+08:00","text":"我要上來發言了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:51:55.670143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:52:50.527286+08:00","text":"好，就剛剛的會議詢問說明幾點：第一，我要說明，專報沒有「釘孤枝」這些字樣；第二，上週在排定本週一議程時，原定是有律師法跟稅審法，後來針對稅審法，司法院有做了一些表達，所以我們就沒有再放進稅審法；第三，剛剛說到本席之前、去年的行為，因當時現場狀況是在群賢樓跟康園之間有救護車要通行，要進來進不來；第四，委員發言的時候，因為用到皮在癢這個詞，有涉及到可能不太好，對人身安全有所威脅；最後，剛剛所提的發言內容，剛才黃委員在質詢的時候都講過了。","quality":0.005},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:52:50.827286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:52:55.113000+08:00","text":"現在是不是謝委員要做程序發言？請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:52:55.413000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:53:00.841571+08:00","text":"請尊重一下，因為待會兒是羅委員的發言時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:53:01.141571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:53:04.855857+08:00","text":"我就現行犯啊，我皮在癢，抓我啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:53:05.155857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:53:10.584429+08:00","text":"皮在癢也可以變成你皮在癢的藉口，莫名其妙！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:53:10.884429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:53:15.170143+08:00","text":"直接說我是現行犯來抓我啊，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-01-13T09:53:15.470143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:53:19.184429+08:00","text":"趕快啦，主席，你最大，你權力最大。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:53:19.484429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:53:22.341571+08:00","text":"我們不建議對人身威脅。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:53:22.641571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:53:24.070143+08:00","text":"來，請謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2025-01-13T09:53:24.370143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:53:36.941571+08:00","text":"主席，我在這裡說明一下，我尊重你的職權，你邀請誰來報告，我都尊重，所以你請林教授來，我也是在這裡聽嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2025-01-13T09:53:37.241571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:53:47.527286+08:00","text":"聽聽看他說什麼，問一問，我們從頭到尾在這裡，結果他「欲來無躊躇，欲去無相辭」，就走他的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2025-01-13T09:53:47.827286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:54:38.970143+08:00","text":"不是啦，我是覺得不管怎麼樣，我尊重你所有的處理嘛，他要走，你也沒跟我們說，他也沒……我認為不妥，我覺得在場有5個委員在這裡，他都沒跟我們5個打招呼，我看他剛才跟部長、跟後面的點一個頭就出去了，向媒體點一個頭就走了，不好，你請他來我都尊重，他報告我也看、也聽，你問一問他就……「欲來無躊躇，欲去無相辭」，就走了，我是覺得這樣……你私底下跟他說一下，你跟他說「謝龍介在那邊很欣賞你，看你說得不錯，你要走也沒跟人家打個招呼」，對不對？","quality":0.006},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2025-01-13T09:54:39.270143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:54:41.841571+08:00","text":"這樣我們會很失望耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:54:42.141571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:54:43.570143+08:00","text":"感謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:54:43.870143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:54:45.013000+08:00","text":"很抱歉啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:54:45.313000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:54:48.170143+08:00","text":"這份資料可以請你參考。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2025-01-13T09:54:48.470143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:54:51.041571+08:00","text":"主席，我也要程序發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:54:51.341571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:54:52.770143+08:00","text":"吳召委。有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2025-01-13T09:54:53.070143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:54:57.641571+08:00","text":"我有看了，他講的時候，我也有在這裡聽。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:54:57.941571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:55:00.513000+08:00","text":"主席做得不太好，抱歉！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員俊宇","start":"2025-01-13T09:55:00.813000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:55:13.955857+08:00","text":"召委，我補充一下：剛剛林志潔教授要離開的時候，有去主席臺說，他說他還有其他的事情，是不是可以讓他先離席？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員俊宇","start":"2025-01-13T09:55:14.255857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:55:16.827286+08:00","text":"我跟你報告一下，抱歉！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員俊宇","start":"2025-01-13T09:55:17.127286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:55:23.127286+08:00","text":"我沒說，因為後來羅智強委員舉手之後就開始說了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝委員龍介","start":"2025-01-13T09:55:23.427286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:55:27.713000+08:00","text":"他有跟你說，但是你沒跟我們說。抱歉！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員俊宇","start":"2025-01-13T09:55:28.013000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:55:30.298714+08:00","text":"那是我的事情，抱歉！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:55:30.598714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:55:31.598714+08:00","text":"吳召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2025-01-13T09:55:31.898714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:55:33.898714+08:00","text":"我這邊程序發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2025-01-13T09:55:34.198714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:56:13.627286+08:00","text":"首先我先謝謝鍾召委在我眼睛開刀的時候跟我對調原本排定的召委順序，所以上週鍾召委有跟我講，因為本來今天是我擔任召委，我來排案，但是鍾召委跟我說是要排稅審法，因為稅審法是鍾召委很支持的一個法案，我也很支持鍾召委處理稅審法，所以要換議程，我就覺得要換的話，如果你是要處理稅審法，這跟人民有重大的關聯性嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2025-01-13T09:56:13.927286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:57:57.641571+08:00","text":"因為稅審法的主軸是保障人民，不是找人民麻煩，所以那時候我才會說好，我就同意交換，當然他也有去跟傅崐萁總召談過，傅崐萁總召那邊也覺得可以，所以我們13號就跟20號對調，其實這個前提是我們支持稅審法的審理，而且我們一開始看到的議程也是稅審法，但是後來怎麼突然變成看起來就是滿滿護航味道的議題出來，我覺得就是說……待會我質詢可能也還會再提一些東西，但是現在程序發言的部分，我想在這邊提醒大家一個點，在109年11月16號，那時候內政委員會也曾經開過一個名字叫作「行政院運用國家資源製作文宣攻擊在野黨，嚴重違反行政中立」的專題報告，在那個專題報告裡面，包括我們委員會的沈發惠委員，以及現在的法務部次長黃世杰次長，都批評說怎麼可以由召委利用立法院的委員會來召開這種違反議事中立的會議，這個在當時立法院的紀錄裡面都看得到所有發言的全貌，我也有把這些東西全部找出來看，沈發惠委員當時也說：你這個都定我罪，我為什麼還要來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2025-01-13T09:57:57.941571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:58:07.370143+08:00","text":"然後黃世杰次長也講說這個根本沒有討論的空間，因為今天的議題就是不中立。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2025-01-13T09:58:07.670143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:58:28.813000+08:00","text":"所以如果我知道鍾召委今天要排這個議程的話，我絕對是不會同意交換，因為我很謝謝他在我生病的時候有幫我替換順序，但是我還是不認同今天的議程名稱，我覺得這是不對的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2025-01-13T09:58:29.113000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:58:36.827286+08:00","text":"尤其是鍾召委當年也參加過野百合學運，也算是學運出身的人嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員宗憲","start":"2025-01-13T09:58:37.127286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:59:01.698714+08:00","text":"更應該了解保障人民言論自由以及集會結社等憲法上權利的重要性，所以我在這邊還是……我的結論就是其實我不支持把議程突然間變更成今天這個顯然滿滿就是要袒護執政黨的議程，這個我是反對的。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:59:01.998714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:59:27.427286+08:00","text":"謝謝吳召委的意見跟體諒，也跟委員會報告說明，因為今天有兩個委員會，包括樓下是司法及法制與內政聯席，所以我們時間上會稍微節制，因為委員要跑場，所以也謝謝謝委員跟陳委員的對調，待會發言就請把握時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T09:59:27.727286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T09:59:30.584429+08:00","text":"現在請羅智強委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}