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我們開始準備開會今天有相當多的專家還有國安部所屬相關單位我們今天要進行的是我們在上上次的會議決議陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案及軍人權益事件處理法草案"},{"start":1996.536,"end":2017.932,"text":"那因為影響甚巨我們今天邀請了各界的專家來進行公聽所以本席這邊先宣告我們今天是以學者專家意見為主那委員後續還有大體討論逐條審查所以我們的發言會把時間盡量讓學者專家有多表述的時間那我們先介紹我們目前在場的委員陳永康委員"},{"start":2020.472,"end":2045.539,"text":"那今天是國防外交跟司法法制的聯席審查的公聽會所以我們今天也歡迎我們這兩個委員會的委員能夠多加來不管是聽取專家的意見或者是進行相關的交流更重要的我們在上一次詢答的時候有相當多的委員就這兩套法提出相關的看法那我們有整理出真點待會會列為討論的要點"},{"start":2048.2,"end":2076.312,"text":"那當然也不是限縮各位學者專家的意見那個是參考也就是說立法委員在上一次會議的時候就這兩套法有提出相關的詢答那他們關切的點在哪裡因為這兩部法的法條還相當多所以重點可以供各位參考當然你們另外有別的思考有別的想法也歡迎各位學者專家來提供你們寶貴的意見那我們先介紹目前已經到場的公聽會的九名學者專家出席"},{"start":2077.532,"end":2104.182,"text":"第一位是臺大法律系林明鑫教授還沒到是不是?到的話讓我知道一下那國防大學法律系系主任鍾秉正鍾主任中央研究院法律法律學研究所副研究員吳宗謀來請坐再來是玄奘大學法律系副教授劉育偉"},{"start":2108.735,"end":2136.016,"text":"接下來是中央警察大學法律系助理教授李東穎接下來邀請的是民傳大學財經法律系助理教授林士清接下來是國防大學法律系助理教授蔣大偉接下來是財政法人國家政策研究基金會資深顧問韓玉潔"},{"start":2141.648,"end":2166.906,"text":"接下來是軍中人權促進會我們大家都熟識的黃媽媽這個陳碧兒女士非常謝謝她特別把事情挪開來參加也謝謝她為軍中人權長期的努力謝謝黃媽媽好那我們今天練習的官員的部分由副部長徐元甫上將率隊另外常務次長楊基榮中將"},{"start":2170.782,"end":2194.475,"text":"法律司司長沈世偉中將法律事務司法紀調查處處長王振儀少將資歸司司長鄧克雄資歸司人力資源處處長董少明少將人事參謀次長是次長劉沛智中將"},{"start":2198.325,"end":2219.085,"text":"人事參謀次長是人事勤務處副處長方中泰上校另外司法院由行政訴訟懲戒廳法官郭任森郭法官法務部由參事林峰文國安局人事處吳副處長"},{"start":2221.452,"end":2226.456,"text":"教育部學生事務及特殊教育司專門委員鄭文堯海洋委員會海巡署人事室專委翁群遠請議事人員宣讀討論提綱"},{"start":2250.115,"end":2272.85,"text":"討論提綱一陸海空軍懲罰法下稱懲罰法對各種懲罰種類之執行對象或要件之限縮得否一律應與本法中規範得否與施行細則中定之例如排除對服役28年之上校降階避免降階後與中校之26年最大服役年限或者辦理剝奪或減少退出及與懲罰時應與陸海空軍"},{"start":2275.832,"end":2290.716,"text":"軍官事關服役條例第24條或第25條所定之要件或減少退出給予之比例相當現行懲罰法第6條將軍人服從義務比照一般文職公務員、民定屬官如任長官命令違法"},{"start":2291.416,"end":2297.018,"text":"並向長官報告與長官以書面下達命令後時有服從義務未以書面下達之命令時則視為撤回命令該規定不分命令內容與情況與律要求軍事長官以書面下達命令是否合宜2022年5月13日修正之公務員服務法軍人亦有適用以放寬公務員之兼職兼差標準未來對於國軍人員"},{"start":2316.844,"end":2328.904,"text":"涵義務役違法兼職兼差制要件是否應與懲罰法中明定是本次懲罰法修正草案徵定第三章第二節行政調查與刑事偵查競合"},{"start":2329.383,"end":2357.367,"text":"在法制體力上相關規範是否只能在《刑事訴訟法》等《刑事程序法》中規範?五、軍人權益事件處理法第8條規定第三項年定由地方軍事法院聆聘社會公正人士或專家學者擔任兼任權保委員為確保審議的專業與獨立性國防部未來執法制定時兼任委員應具備何種積極或消極資格例如是否應一律排除自願"},{"start":2358.007,"end":2380.42,"text":"已退出軍人宣讀完畢在進行發言之前本席做以下幾點宣告第一本次公聽會邀請專家學者共計9名依照政黨比例推薦民進黨4位、國民黨4位、臺灣民眾黨1位"},{"start":2383.598,"end":2410.792,"text":"第二本日議程進行首先由學者專家發言發言順序依照簽到先後次序若學者專家個別有調整我們予以尊重那經本席唱名後請至發言台發言每人時間10分鐘時間到之前會按鈴提醒麻煩各位學者專家控制發言時間那如果有專家學者"},{"start":2411.272,"end":2411.292,"text":"第3"},{"start":2427.202,"end":2443.309,"text":"本院委員會部分若欲發言請在9點到10點半之間到主席台做發言登記因為今天是公聽會原則上是以學者專家發言為主待他們發言完畢後"},{"start":2444.369,"end":2458.155,"text":"我們在進行兩個委員會的委員的發言每會時間5分鐘最後請行政機關代表發言針對學者專家的意見立委在這邊相關的提問"},{"start":2461.416,"end":2485.134,"text":"來做出整體的回應跟說明那因為今天是公聽會沒有進行官員之間的詢答我們上一次已經進行過了未來的大體討論逐條還會再進行所以以上是就今天的次序跟本會來做個報告現在開始進行本次公聽會的發言首先請中央警察大學法律系李東穎助理教授上台發言時間10分鐘"},{"start":2489.872,"end":2491.459,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":2502.8,"end":2529.825,"text":"主席在場的各位委員在場各位老師以及各位先進先跟大家問好今天非常榮幸受到委員邀請來這邊針對懲罰法跟權益保障法兩部法律來發表一些我個人的淺見在進到提高討論之前也許容許我整個比較體系性的針對兩部法律它在整個"},{"start":2534.809,"end":2554.288,"text":"軍人紀律維持上面的制度的重要性也許來做一些簡短的說明我們都知道說其實這兩部法律在目前這個階段來去修改跟實施其實在整個軍人紀律維持上面其實它有重大的意義在這個地方的話其實我們可以把"},{"start":2555.128,"end":2578.945,"text":"整個紀律維持措施的相關的法制分成幾個階段來去觀察那這個懲罰法的部分的話當然是涉及到實體法的部分那這個權益處理法它當然是涉及到所謂輸送法的問題那這個我們都知道說其實在軍隊裡面的話這個紀律維持措施它是一個非常重要的制度"},{"start":2580.168,"end":2598.02,"text":"那我以前我個人在到警大這個服務之前其實我也是一般的法律教育體系出身的嘛那我到警大之後其實我可以深刻體會到說這個紀律的維持對於這個有可能會使用到武力的這些公務人員他的重要性在什麼地方"},{"start":2598.92,"end":2613.768,"text":"那所以我們都知道說懲罰法它最主要就是要針對軍人的違紀行為去從事所謂的紀律處分它跟一般我們講說是屬於這個行政法或是處罰的措施其實在性質上面本來就有一些不一樣"},{"start":2614.508,"end":2634.387,"text":"那在陸海空軍懲罰法這部法律他當然參考了如果在一般的法制體系上面的話當然我們會去區分所謂懲處跟懲戒那在一般的公務人體系的話當然是懲處的話就是有主要是由這個我們講說公務人考機法來去做處理那懲戒的話是由懲戒法院依照公務人員懲戒法"},{"start":2634.887,"end":2664.153,"text":"那懲罰法這部法律最主要特色就在於說因為軍人的就紀律維持措施他只有在少部分的情況之下會進到懲戒法院做處理那所以懲罰法作為一部規範行政機關紀律維持措施的一部法律其他程序跟實體上面的規範就相當的重要因為大部分的情況都不會進到法院去那懲罰法這一部法律其實相較於目前的公務人員考機法跟公務人員懲戒法我個人的觀察其實它是一個相當"},{"start":2665.934,"end":2688.348,"text":"引進了非常多這個先進的觀念除了他去修正了這個之前比較規範的比較簡短的懲罰法現行的懲罰法措施之外比方說一些很先進的觀念比方說維持行為一體性原則他也納入到這部法律裡面來那這個是關於懲罰法他在整個制度上面他的特色是在這個地方"},{"start":2688.908,"end":2698.377,"text":"第2個關於這個這個權益處理法他作為訴訟法的這個修正他最重要的意義就在於說我們其實在785號解釋事實是785號解釋之後"},{"start":2700.598,"end":2700.758,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2720.326,"end":2738.397,"text":"這個我們講說只要是涉及到人事行政措施軍方的人事行政措施的話他的這個救濟管道把它填補起來讓他可以去符合785號解釋的這個要求那這個也不是只有785號解釋的要求而已其實我們在現在的行政法院的法院實務上面其實針對這個懲罰法跟我們這個全保的措施他針對有一些懲罰的類型沒有辦法去救濟的這個情形已經提出了這個很多的批評"},{"start":2749.244,"end":2768.112,"text":"那所以我個人也非常樂見說法律事務司在這個司長以及各位同仁的努力之下很努力的把它完成這兩部法律其實就整個救濟體系來講的話看起來已經具有非常這個相當程度的規模了那在"},{"start":2768.952,"end":2787.483,"text":"紀律懲罰措施這個地方的話我們也可以再注意到說懲罰法這部法律其實它設計了非常多特殊的這種救濟的制度那這個救濟的制度我自己個人的觀察其實也比較能夠去調和軍方關於紀律維持的需求以及"},{"start":2788.687,"end":2803.966,"text":"軍人權益保障的部分怎麼說呢其實我們在這個權益處理法草案上面基本上我們是分成三個階段的救濟程序全保會他是屬於這個我們講說軍方內部的行政內部的救濟程序他是負責所謂的審議的副審這個副審還有再申訴的案件"},{"start":2808.371,"end":2830.467,"text":"那高等行政法院裡面再去設置所謂勤務法庭那勤務法庭這個部分的話是針對這個我們講說針對這個副審跟再申訴案件如果不符合情況之下可以向勤務法庭去請求救濟那如果對這個勤務法庭的裁判在不符合情況之下我們也可以向高等行政法院這就回到普通的司法體系上面回到高等行政法院去提起上訴"},{"start":2831.704,"end":2856.478,"text":"跟所謂的抗告那所以在這個地方的話我們就可以去觀察說這個為什麼在這個地方在權益保障法這個地方他為什麼比較能夠去調和軍方的距離維持措施跟這個司法救濟體系的完整性的地方就在這裡因為他去融合了一些讓一些軍方的人員受過軍事教育的這些軍法官或是國防法務官能夠參與到整個救濟體系裡面來"},{"start":2860.68,"end":2890.06,"text":"好那我們之前其實我在還沒有接觸軍方的這些相關法規之前其實我比較不能夠去理解說那為什麼紀律維持措施在整個軍方體系來說它是這麼重要可是只要稍微接觸到不管是警方或是軍方體系我們就可以其實相當程度的了解就是紀律維持措施在維持整個這個我們講說這個使用武力的人員他有可能去違法的情況之下的話它是一個非常重要的手段"},{"start":2890.94,"end":2918.636,"text":"那所以在這個地方呢我們第二個步驟的話就是要去統合這些救濟的管道那這個救濟管道這個地方它之所以它的最大的特色就在於說它去融合了這個我們講說軍方受過軍事教育的人員跟一般的司法體系的人員那這個受過軍事教育體系的人員的話他對軍方的這一些我們講說紀律的維持然後呢在什麼樣的情況之下的為之行為要給他什麼樣的適當的處罰"},{"start":2920.237,"end":2936.82,"text":"他當然可以比較有一個精確的判斷那就人權保障的部分的話這個地方也許我們就可以比較注重比較去借重比方說向高等行政法院提起上述的這個程序來去維持他的人權保障的要求"},{"start":2938.783,"end":2955.3,"text":"在這個地方的話第三個部分的話也許我們可以來看一下如果今天因為我之前聽到公聽會之前在委員會裡面討論的話其實有一些委員會比較擔心說那如果由軍方的軍法官來去維持這個"},{"start":2957.742,"end":2983.533,"text":"從事這些軍事懲戒措施、懲罰措施的相關處罰情況之下會不會比較偏重軍方的要求而沒有保障到軍人權那這個部分的話我自己個人看法是這樣子就是說當然如果是在全保會還有在勤務法庭的情形當然大部分的情況都是由這個具有軍方身份的人來去參與救濟的程序可是呢"},{"start":2985.113,"end":3000.279,"text":"我自己個人側面的了解就是關於之後如果這個權益保障法要上路之後呢相關的教育訓練好像司法院這邊也會提供一些協助嘛協助軍法官的訓練然後第二個部分的話如果可以針對軍事的"},{"start":3002.693,"end":3027.472,"text":"這個懲罰的案件如果可以向高等法院提起上訴高等行政法院提起上訴的情況之下某種程度他也可以去救濟我們講說這個有可能在前端的程序有可能會比較注重這個軍事上面劇烈維持的這些觀點那我目前的看法是認為說如果現在目前照這樣的設計的話其實某種程度應該可以比較平衡"},{"start":3028.832,"end":3053.242,"text":"這個軍事紀律的要求以及個人權利的保障的觀點那我個人認為在這兩部法律如果今天制定通過生效之後也許還有一些地方可以在我們的整個的軍事紀律維持措施裡面再去考量的就是人事措施的整合人事措施的整合那人事措施的整合這個地方的話最主要涉及到問題是說因為我們軍方"},{"start":3054.462,"end":3063.307,"text":"針對同一個違私行為他有可能有非常多的人事懲罰措施包括懲罰包括所謂不適不現役他就在不一樣的法規裡面去做規範"},{"start":3064.875,"end":3092.224,"text":"那這個部分的話有可能會造成同一個違私行為可是受到雙重不利益的處罰這種狀況那這個部分的話也許是我們在通過這個懲罰法跟軍人權益保障事件處理法之後有可能要去這個再去精進跟改善的部分那提綱的部分因為我還這個時間沒有掌握好所以還沒有回答到如果第二人發言的話也許我再來針對這些問題來做回答以上謝謝"},{"start":3096.5,"end":3096.6,"text":"主席"},{"start":3126.981,"end":3141.932,"text":"發言的逐字稿我們會在週三來提前送給本兩個委員會的所有委員週三之前否則我們一般公聽會會讓作業時間長一點10多天後但因為這親自造修法的歷程我們希望"},{"start":3142.472,"end":3163.491,"text":"今天委員就算沒有在場聽到各位寶貴的意見我們要把你的書面在我們進行逐條審查前提列給我們相關的審查委員在禮拜三上午可以啦上午把它提列出來那同樣的今天參與發言的專家學者那你們如果說沒有講完有PowerPoint有補充資料"},{"start":3164.212,"end":3165.693,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":3187.429,"end":3214.247,"text":"司法法制及國防委員會委員都能夠看到各位的意見到下午我們進行逐條審查後才有所本我們也沒有設定什麼時候把這兩套法修完我們是做著本份案表操課修完就修完沒有修完我們就繼續一直往下開因為這影響軍人權益不管是懲處維持紀律或者是權益的維繫這兩個平衡非常重要所以我們剛才謝謝李東穎助理教授的發言"},{"start":3214.787,"end":3217.83,"text":"國防大學法律系系主任鍾秉正提醒各位如果有我們兩個委員會的同仁提修正動議"},{"start":3232.125,"end":3246.904,"text":"請在週三上午10點半前不是今天喔週三上午10點半前送交議事人員我再提醒一次我們沒有設定什麼時候審查完略但是我們就把程序把它做對"},{"start":3247.725,"end":3248.786,"text":"委員會委員提修正動議請於本週三上午10點半以前送交議事人員"},{"start":3270.12,"end":3285.527,"text":"我們會在專家學者發言結束後來安排我們的委員發言委員發言完再關政府部門回應今天沒有詢答回應完之後我們今天公聽會就到一個段落以上做這個次序的說明教授抱歉讓你久等來請"},{"start":3291.838,"end":3313.468,"text":"主席在座各位先進大家好我是國防大學法律系的系主任我是文職的老師所以即職到了時間到了就要擔任這樣的一個職位站在我現在的一個立場裡面也站在整個國防法律系的一個法學教育上面這個懲罰法"},{"start":3315.729,"end":3342.067,"text":"的一個修訂是對整個軍事法律的教育以及未來軍法的發展是非常重要的那我簡單提出幾個看法第一個就是因為我們今年開始我們的兵役延長成一年那所以這個軍隊要如何管理那就會不同於以往那個四個月的一個軍事訓練的模式那如何讓這個軍隊是可以備戰然後能夠"},{"start":3343.646,"end":3363.535,"text":"必要的時候能夠達到保家衛國的功能這是我們一貫的主張那站在法律的立場來講的話其實我們常常在強調說要依法行政那其實在軍中也要依法來治軍那什麼法呢這兩部法律就非常重要"},{"start":3364.395,"end":3388.454,"text":"那以往大家對軍法的了解都是用來處罰官兵的也就是用刑事審判那因為紅中秋案的話這樣的一個功能被轉到地方法院去了那留下來的軍中的紀律如何維持其實老實講它並不穩固我同時也是國防部的訴院委員我們過往這幾年裡面遇到很多的案例"},{"start":3389.456,"end":3396.576,"text":"發覺說其實我們的立場我們的依據其實不夠明確不符合一個現代化的法治國家的要求"},{"start":3397.918,"end":3418.776,"text":"所以整個國家在進步軍中也要跟著進步尤其在法治方面那所以軍法的角色他就從原本一個制裁違法官兵的角色變成是一個保護官兵的角色也就是說未來這兩部法律的設計未來如果官兵在軍中受到懲罰的時候"},{"start":3420.137,"end":3443.09,"text":"他可以尋權益保障尋那個那個我們所謂的懲戒那個植物法庭的方式來達到行政救濟的目的那這個是非常重要的這是非常重要的也就是說軍法的角色變成是在保護我們的官兵的權益這是完全不一樣的那另外的對於軍法官的未來因為"},{"start":3444.671,"end":3456.301,"text":"我們那個整個軍事審判移到行事軍事審判移到了一般的法院了所以如何哪一天真的作戰時候我們需要軍法官的話那會沒有"},{"start":3457.998,"end":3486.43,"text":"那怎麼辦呢我們平常就要儲備這樣的一個能量雖然他們平常從事的如果這個法通過之後他從事的是行政訴訟的工作可是這樣的一個軍法官的角色會藉由這樣的制度繼續維持下去以備戰時不時之需當然我們不希望打仗不希望打仗可是一定要備戰這個就算我是一個文人的話我也不可能講說那個兩岸都沒有事情"},{"start":3487.21,"end":3496.325,"text":"好 那還有一點時間我來分享一下就是針對這幾個大綱裡面我有一些看法首先有關於那個到底"},{"start":3497.418,"end":3516.614,"text":"我們的懲罰的各種種類啊什麼等等的可不可以放在施行細則中來制定這在行政法的一個規範裡面是非常常見的我們有個大法官解釋443號解釋就講到有關於技術性的或者是細節性的這個規範"},{"start":3518.095,"end":3539.463,"text":"因為行政法非常複雜如果全部都要歸在法律裡面的話一方面法條會非常眾多然後再來修法不容易修法不容易然後就很容易阻礙到行政的靈活性所以通常技術性、細節性是容許定在行政法規命令裡面尤其是施行細則裡面"},{"start":3541.143,"end":3569.714,"text":"所以然後另外的我們的現在的行政命令都要送立法院來備查所以換句話說如果真的是有不適宜的地方的話也可以透過備查的程序來賦予備查所以其實現在的這樣立法的程序的話不是說那個行政機關可以一手遮天所以我覺得說從技術上考量然後從官兵的權益上考量要能夠取得一個均衡讓這個法能夠真正的"},{"start":3570.794,"end":3596.032,"text":"能夠落實下去至於有關軍人的服從義務這的確是一個問題我們在修法的過程中也的確有提到這個問題可是我們必須要強調是說現役軍人跟公務人員是不一樣的我們的公務人員是具有公務人員身份是經過依法任用的也就是說他以此為業的"},{"start":3597.455,"end":3620.362,"text":"可是所謂的現役軍人他其實分兩大塊有很大一部分是義務役的官士兵那這一些人當個幾個月甚至一年他就要回到一般的那個社會了然後另外有一群人比較少數的他是從事以此為業所謂的職業軍人所以我們的現役軍人裡面有這樣的一個複雜的屬性"},{"start":3622.743,"end":3648.566,"text":"所以他跟一般的我們對公務人員的要求其實沒有辦法等同是之然後再來的所謂的我們那個公務員服務法理院所所講到的服從義務包含可以要求違法的行政那個那個命令的話可以要求長官來就是下條子給書面的這個是在程序上面的保障可是在軍中的話其實不太容易當然我會覺得就是說"},{"start":3650.387,"end":3666.522,"text":"有其他的方式可以解決包含他能夠佐證能夠舉出證明比如說電話紀錄比如說他的同僚之間的佐證其實也可以達到同案的效果我們在實務上也的確遇過這樣的一個情形反走過必留下痕跡"},{"start":3667.703,"end":3688.029,"text":"不可能一個長官他可以隻手遮天沒有到這個程度那當然其實又要一方面維持這樣一個戰鬥團隊的一個向心力然後一方面又要讓他能夠合法的運行這的確是兩難不過我覺得在法律上面透過不同的層級的法規範我們可以達到平衡的目的"},{"start":3689.076,"end":3715.265,"text":"好那另外的話還有一個第三個是有關於兼職兼差的問題啦其實兼職兼差的話其實我們最近這幾年包含年改包含公務人員的法制的改革的確兼職兼差這方面已經開始出現說是不是要鬆動了可是當然最重要是不能夠去動搖或者是妨礙他的本務這才是最重要的"},{"start":3715.825,"end":3731.237,"text":"那軍中在這一塊的話要求比較嚴格原因是軍人的屬性不一樣他必須要全天候的原則上全天候的在就是備戰然後在執勤這個跟我們一般的公務人員上下班是不同的"},{"start":3732.157,"end":3749.978,"text":"所以我覺得在兼職兼差這方面的話的確在軍中會比較要求比較嚴格一點那也因為這個樣子的話恐怕在這部法律裡面在技術上面不太容易全部納入我會建議就是說在立法技術上面他可能要另外再去規範"},{"start":3752.93,"end":3754.33,"text":"軍人的懲罰這是一個紀律法"},{"start":3780.953,"end":3781.593,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3801.274,"end":3817.062,"text":"很多人都是用技術性的杯葛反正我能拖就拖我先到刑事訴訟去然後我這邊就可以拖著那這樣子尤其我剛剛講過我們有一大堆義務義的軍事官那我們就管不到了因為等到刑事那邊判決確定"},{"start":3818.123,"end":3818.603,"text":"行事程序"},{"start":3839.093,"end":3859.322,"text":"原本我們有在考慮說要不要放到刑事訴訟法那邊去可是刑事訴訟法的話業管單位是在司法院那如果要等司法院再配合再討論再修法的話那又緩不濟急這樣子所以我們先把它放在懲罰法裡面作為一個特別程序當然我剛剛講過行懲並行這個是不排除的"},{"start":3861.824,"end":3878.784,"text":"最後面是對於領選一些社會公正人士、學者專家來參與權益保障的現行的設計是五個權保委員裡面有兩個是國防法務官三位是外聘的學者專家"},{"start":3882.808,"end":3897.378,"text":"委員擔心說要不要排除這個以往就是職業軍人的部分那其實我覺得剛剛我講過了我們所有的只要是男生的話也都當過EUE阿再給我一分鐘所以事實上"},{"start":3899.186,"end":3925.797,"text":"當過兵尤其擔任過職業軍人他反而對這個職業更了解更了解而且他的角色已經不一樣了變成是民間的我想任何人他為了這個國家為了這個軍隊好的話他不見得都要關關相護更何況他已經變成是民間了就算再怎麼有民間友人的話他基於他的專業也會站在他的專業立場提供考量"},{"start":3926.317,"end":3947.752,"text":"更何況他是為了要保障現役的軍人受懲罰的軍人他不是要處罰他所以事實上其實甚至引進這一些學者專家來講的話會更容易讓這個委員會發揮功能為什麼因為反而是現役的軍人中間會有愛手愛腳的地方"},{"start":3949.933,"end":3949.993,"text":"主席"},{"start":3982.834,"end":4006.683,"text":"謝謝那我們請呃劉亦偉副教授謝謝這個謝謝這個按下一個就對了"},{"start":4009.342,"end":4029.01,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有各位先進大家好那個我之前在4月19號的時候曾經針對受到立法院的這個法治局的這個邀請針對這個所謂的現在第二個部分有關於這個軍人權益事件處理法的這一部程序法的部分有寫大概5000多支的報告"},{"start":4029.79,"end":4051.303,"text":"那這個部分有一些建議的部分因為有部分已經是重複的所以我就不再多提了那我只針對今天主席所開設的提綱的部分做一些探討那首先也非常榮幸能夠來參加這次的公聽會那這次陸海空軍刑法將這個救濟的部分獨立出來另外成立一個軍人權益事件處理法的程序法"},{"start":4051.943,"end":4077.045,"text":"事實上我對這個名詞的部分之前我在法治局也有談到過是有一些建議的不過如果還是定調成這樣的話當然予以尊重但既然它是屬於程序法的部分的話它也整合了國軍各類的救濟管道這個部分倒是一個蠻不錯的一個設計那同時它也提升了有關於在行政規則的救濟作為提升到它的法律位階並且依照4至785號的解釋將這個草案的部分總共分為兩個部分"},{"start":4078.206,"end":4102.589,"text":"第一部分是有關於副審他是處理傳統身份變更公法上財產請求權獎懲考積的相關行政作為第二個部分是有關於申訴及再申訴的部分這個部分他也秉除了這個副審以外的行政處分的一些管理的措施那最特別的部分無論是副審或是再申訴都是交給賦予已經賦予法源依據的全保會因為過往"},{"start":4103.89,"end":4119.46,"text":"國軍單位的全保會都是用行政規則來去做相關的運作的那這是正式的將這個所謂的官兵全保會的部分然後把它賦予它的法院依據所以對於不服以及再申訴的這個結果的部分可以讓像高等軍事法院的勤務法庭做第一審的行政訴訟"},{"start":4120.501,"end":4143.155,"text":"那如果還有不符可以向司法機關的這個所謂的高等行政法院再去做上訴這個部分就呼應了早期這個4至430號軍事審判法可以允許向司法機關尋求救濟的部分來尋求公正的部分做一個相互的一個呼應所以整體來講在設計上的部分表達肯定這個是第一個部分的一些說明"},{"start":4144.776,"end":4172.79,"text":"由於這個時間的關係提綱的部分總共計有五項那我僅就第一點有關於降階的部分也就是關於懲罰法的部分還有第五點有關於審議做法跟立法目的的關聯這個部分是涉及到軍人權益事件處理法草案的部分來發表個人的一些意見首先第一個部分有關於這個降階的部分在這邊我要探討的是有關於降階的適用對象以及他的做法上面這不是我所關懷的焦點"},{"start":4173.55,"end":4202.813,"text":"因為我想直接破題堅持降階這種懲罰種類是違反平等原則以及比例原則的恐有違憲之餘首先第一個在沒有毫無法院依據的這個部分我做的理由是懲罰法距離上一次大幅修正時間是在104年的時候新增了這個所謂的降階的懲罰也就在該法也就是現行法的部分第37條的部分明定由行政院以命令認定生效日期"},{"start":4203.493,"end":4225.992,"text":"那這個時候行政院在109年8月5日由行政院願受人陪制第10900385061號宣布降階至109年8月10日施行各位有沒有覺得很奇怪明明是在104年定制令的可是卻在109年才公告他的施行日期從訂定到施行日期延遲了5年"},{"start":4227.453,"end":4249.604,"text":"實用到現在國防部毫無任用到底有關於降階的實例那是因為降階本來在制定之初就存在著政策性、法律性、實務性的爭議因為毫無法源依據參照公務人員懲戒法的相關的這個懲罰種類我們也從來沒有看過公務員由檢任降變為監任監任降成委任的案例"},{"start":4250.664,"end":4264.994,"text":"我們再從大法官釋字的相關釋字中也可以看到大法官釋字有談到有所謂的降低擬任官等的部分這是針對公務人員任用的這個資格的部分來予以做的相關人事作業程序它並不是一種懲罰所以在這個地方降級的施作涉及到後續的退伍處分"},{"start":4270.738,"end":4270.758,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4290.433,"end":4316.538,"text":"即便草案現在修正叫做一年之內不可以調任主官職我也看不出它意義在哪裡因為畢竟已經涉犯了違紀行為本來就沒有續任主官的可能這個就是有點多詞一舉所以換句話說像這種附帶性的人事處分的一個連帶效益就好比剝削了好幾層皮一樣相較於其他的行政懲罰來講還有來的恐怖第二個部分是有關將跟任之間的作業不平等"},{"start":4317.498,"end":4338.474,"text":"一般來講我們軍官的任官是以總統的任官令為之為什麼降階的時候是由全責機關的全責機關是以行政命令的一職處分來為之事關的部分的任官是由光波各司令部認知是以降階時他也不會去干預到全責機關所做的行政處分所以這個任官跟降階之間"},{"start":4339.855,"end":4345.758,"text":"任與將之間的這個施加處罰的主體呈現極不平等的狀況也違反了平等原則跟比例原則的要求除此之外還有涉及到後面有關降階任職的問題因為它降了每一個官等都有固定的職務這個如何將官等跟職務做相關的一個對應這個也有涉及到任職的問題考機的問題等等部分"},{"start":4363.047,"end":4387.408,"text":"而且這個部分的後面的問題衍生的部分是增添了現在所提軍人權益事件處理法的溯源對人事作業而言根本叫做耗費資源以及徒增負擔所以在這個地方我們也做一個他山之石可以公錯臺美的軍法交流的過程中美國軍法從來都沒有聽過有關於降階的設計的操作是不是在當初建議降階之初名詞翻譯的美麗錯誤這個部分擁有爭議"},{"start":4389.75,"end":4395.671,"text":"接下來是有關於獎賞不對等的問題考量到懲罰法對於懲罰種類已經很多元了也就是我們設計出這麼多的懲罰種類已經可以供權責長官做一些相關的採用了即便不用採用降階也可以收到懲罰的效果那甚至於我們現在有所謂的降級降級也可以逐步達成降階的威嚇效果何必贅色降階"},{"start":4416.656,"end":4417.917,"text":"這顯然是一種既不公平又不對稱的奇異立法設計"},{"start":4437.406,"end":4466.078,"text":"最近委員會在這個地方在4月29日有做一個臨時的提案爭取恢復退役上校階以上的子女補助費如果假設這個臨時提案的部分沒有順利通過而降階處分仍然存在一名受上校階降階處罰的人降到下一階之後變成中校和退役之後對當事人這不是一種威嚇跟警惕的效果反而是一種擺脫上校不可以請領子女補助費的一個限制進了連帶改變退休後的整體福利"},{"start":4466.638,"end":4492.624,"text":"恐怕誘發當事人故意自招降階的處罰是一種鼓勵軍人追求功利的一種諷刺因此我曾經撰寫過相關的文章批判降階實在沒有處罰的必要也建議刪除降階的種類但很遺憾的是行政院在普通過的現在目前通過的這個《陸海空軍懲罰法》的草案裡面仍然沒有將降階刪除而且草案理由也就是現在會議資料的正第33頁"},{"start":4494.244,"end":4518.092,"text":"甚至說明受降階懲罰者實務迄今沒有作成相關的懲罰種類的施例等於既然有這個規定但又沒有這個案例是不是也證明了降階是否符合時需以及它的存續的必要性所幸今天在委員們的提案版本中有洞見降階問題的所在而建議予以刪除在這地方我個人持以高度的支持以及認同"},{"start":4518.812,"end":4526.981,"text":"最後對於降階的部分我還必須說有從它的制定之初到現在的程序我只能說這是民主國家縱容的契機"},{"start":4530.523,"end":4559.109,"text":"第二個部分在提綱第五點有關於軍人有關於審議人員的組成以及立法目的的關聯第一個部分我要所提的部分是在這個地方是有一個矛盾情節的我可以認同未來全保的這個審議機制應該引進外國外部委員甚至可以仿效近年來監獄刑刑法裡面新增監獄外部視察的機制或剛通過的校園霸凌審議機制但是說實話這是一個權力跟戰力之間的橫平因為"},{"start":4560.109,"end":4571.868,"text":"這一個草案裡面尤其是程序法裡面必須要兼顧部隊機率又要鞏固戰力那但是這裡面又談到說在申訴的範圍可以包含人事調遷的行政處分"},{"start":4573.004,"end":4588.87,"text":"除非這個人事調遷是軍事長官的這個財產權縮減到零否則不至於要透由法律介入也就是換句話說人事調遷的行政處分可以對之徵送的做法 凸顯在維護權益跟兼顧部隊機率之間的一個矛盾也就是換句話說將來在陳平時期"},{"start":4591.851,"end":4616.243,"text":"這種做法也許是個民主大躍進但是你現在叫軍人犧牲生命在這邊已經賦予他說不的權利了所以在這種公義大於私益的前提之下私益是不是應該要事實上不倘若容認私益無限的擴張是否可能有衝擊到領導統一權之餘所以換句話說在做這個部分的部分到底是要施治懲罰還是做刑事審理在這地方可能也要顧及到有關於領導統一權的差異以上"},{"start":4618.604,"end":4620.025,"text":"主席及在座各位先進大家好"},{"start":4644.785,"end":4671.516,"text":"我先想一下我們歐陽修在雙綱簽表裡面講到一句話說求其生而不得則死者與我皆無恨也我們今天在談這兩部法律我們都想到一件事情他既說要鞏固戰力又說要兼顧人權那我們就去思考一下有沒有辦法真的能夠做到可以鞏固戰力又能夠兼顧人權的一部法律"},{"start":4672.492,"end":4689.384,"text":"我們先回到憲法137條憲法137條說的是國防的目的我們國防目的在保衛國家安全維護世界和平我們先不說後段的維護世界和平我們先說一下保衛國家安全"},{"start":4690.461,"end":4718.668,"text":"怎麼保衛國家安全當然他就必須要所有的服役的軍人他真的能夠不怕死他願意在有命令下達的狀態下他可以陸力以赴因此我們在談這兩部法律的時候我們會思考到一個問題什麼問題呢我們在軍隊的管理我們既要求所有的軍人必須要有家人手足的感情但是同時我們又必須可以他嚴肅的紀律"},{"start":4721.141,"end":4740.927,"text":"我們常常講家是不講規矩的地方家是不講道理的地方可是我們在軍隊裡面卻說你是我的手足你是我的家人但是你必須要服從我給你的嚴肅紀律我們從什麼地方可以看到國防法的15條我們要嚴格的紀律我們要嚴格的訓練因此我們再回過頭來去思考一下"},{"start":4745.888,"end":4754.379,"text":"用什麼方法可以真的能夠到兼顧人權而不會有衝突的這種狀況出現因此我們回過頭來去思考說"},{"start":4756.175,"end":4782.614,"text":"在修正一部非常重大的法律的時候這兩個法律案有幸我在去年初的時候參加一個論壇的時候就已經看過全部的草案我當時就給予這兩部法律非常高的評價與肯認但是終究我們今天透過這樣一個公聽會的機會可以讓大家一起再腦力激盪看看是不是可以用這兩部法律協助我們的國軍可以達到最好最完美的地步"},{"start":4783.7,"end":4795.451,"text":"我們想要想說一部的法律制定按照我們現行的法制作業我們會去思考在性別平等上面有沒有符合規範我們有沒有相關符合現行國際潮流趨勢的這些做法"},{"start":4796.414,"end":4821.451,"text":"可是我們常常去講一件事情法律的制定有的時候我們必須要有風險意識什麼是風險意識就是未確定的將來有衝擊性的這些東西我們在制定法律之初我們是不是就要應該去思考說我們怎麼樣把那個風險降低所有的法律都必須放到執行的階段我們說徒法不足以執行講的就是這個"},{"start":4822.432,"end":4848.489,"text":"因此當在座的各位立法的先進們委員們在處理這兩部法律的時候我們有的是想一個法律的制定他希望能夠長長久久而真的讓每一個不管是政策面決策的人或者是執行面他們實際上去處理的人都能夠受到這部法律的保護而這部法律也真的能夠達到我們在制定這部法律在第一條講的立法的目的"},{"start":4849.622,"end":4875.945,"text":"因此我們要回過頭來看看這個法律裡面到底有什麼可能的風險我用一點點時間講一個故事各位我們在讀史記的時候會讀到一個叫做李林就是李廣的孫子當時他跟漢武帝爭取說我要去打匈奴殘餘果然當他自己去的時候五千個人去步兵去打騎兵碰到殘餘的主力部隊"},{"start":4877.526,"end":4904.549,"text":"李林即使武功再高強也是一路退退退可是他在退的過程中間造成殘餘非常大的傷害以致打到最後的時候殘餘想說我可能要中計了因為他越來越向他們的官內去退我可能會中計他都決定我第二天就要撤軍了結果當天晚上李林的部隊裡面有一個叫做管桿的軍侯就是一個小官"},{"start":4905.47,"end":4916.463,"text":"因為受到羞辱他心裡不平他投降了他投降到匈奴那邊去他告訴了匈奴殘餘說李玲已經淡盡圓絕了"},{"start":4918.564,"end":4939.738,"text":"因此參與決定不撤軍第二天就繼續打造成了李玲的被俘這個歷史的故事在我們過去讀書的時候其實是非常清楚的我們常常有時候去思考到我們相信所有的國軍都是忠誠的都是願意為國家笑死但這是理想這是不容置疑這是理想"},{"start":4940.518,"end":4964.933,"text":"古今中外有多少的軍人在戰場上因為在關鍵的時刻有人是為國效死的但是也有人就投敵的因此我們在思考我們這兩步關於說能夠鞏固戰力兼顧人權的法案我們能不能做到一個制定的機制說讓我們的這個人權真的是能夠做到刮風不透下雨不漏呢"},{"start":4966.28,"end":4994.146,"text":"有一個機制今天剛好看到法務部也有代表在這邊法務部常年在推動的修復式正義在台灣叫做修復式司法我從實證主義的角度來說我自己從事修復的事務到今天已經10年我們光處理軍中的這些衝突事件我們用修復的程序下去處理的時候我舉一個非常明確的例子我們有某軍種有一個士官 有一個兵一天之內"},{"start":4995.543,"end":5001.632,"text":"暴走對三個市官長暴行同一個單位對市官長暴行很嚴重啊"},{"start":5003.038,"end":5027.03,"text":"震動了單位我們去處理他的修復案件的時候我們發現一件事情如果我們只從要件的角度來看就是我們巨件式的處理你符不符合要件符合我就處分你報刑當然符合法律的規範你該違法的該處理就處理可是這對整個他們單位所造成的影響是極大的因此我們在修復的過程中間我們發現了一個問題"},{"start":5029.051,"end":5054.445,"text":"其實他是在家暴的家庭中長大的孩子他之所以暴走是為了保護他的媽媽當然說來話長我只能簡單說到這邊但是因為他說出了這一個我們從來不知道甚至單位都不知道的事情單位的主觀瞭解到這個事情不是我們看到的那個平面衝突而是他看到這個立體的架構所呈現出來的那個衝突焦點"},{"start":5055.606,"end":5082.143,"text":"因此看見了這個整體的真相的時候單位的主觀的看法就不同簡單說的結論是這個犯錯的兵他最後被太處他被罰辦但是他在離開部隊的時候他向全體的官士兵道歉他們拍個照給我們看而且他非常道歉他還寫了一封信向整個單位的官兵說明他在這個過程中間的不當"},{"start":5083.325,"end":5096.127,"text":"他被判刑以後他寫了一封信給我們他說非常謝謝我們有一個這樣的機制他說我雖然被汰除被判刑但是我在離開部隊的時候我得到的是被我原單位的接納"},{"start":5097.777,"end":5113.913,"text":"這個就讓我們在從事修復食物工作的人有一個非常大的感受就是如何能夠讓一個懲罰的結果是心服口服心悅誠服尤其在一個掌管幾千億玉山的軍隊裡面"},{"start":5115.054,"end":5129.625,"text":"我們多麼希望所有的懲罰、受懲的人以及決定去懲罰的人都能夠在這個懲罰事件中我們可以透過懲罰而得到正面的這種反應而不是成為我們心中的怨恨的來源"},{"start":5130.626,"end":5149.121,"text":"因此我在這邊談談講說我們有的時候後期某些人認為說你那叫修復司法應該只放在司法的領域裡面而不應該放在這種行政的懲罰裡面其實那是外來的名詞它的英文叫做Restorative JusticeJustice你去翻嘛你可以把它翻成正義"},{"start":5150.482,"end":5164.754,"text":"或者我們看現行我們國內已經通過的五部法律或者兩個法規命令裡面其實都沒有講到修復是司法它只有兩個字叫做修復那麼各位去看犯罪背叛保護權益法裡面有一個修復專章"},{"start":5166.275,"end":5183.559,"text":"因此我在這邊想說如果我們真的能夠讓我們的軍人在管理上面或者他受到的處分而他還有一個很清楚的空間可以去說明的時候我們其實是可以講到很多院隊雖然現在國防部有權保會有訴願會但是我們說實在的"},{"start":5186.94,"end":5213.958,"text":"實務上面當事人到現場他往往受限於會議時間的發言他沒有辦法暢所欲言的去說明可是從修復制度的角度來說他卻可以暢所欲言的跟修復的委員們說明這就可以減少到多少多少的衝突甚至有我們常常講說黑箱作業啊或者等等之類在修復的過程中間他們有家人可以進來參與這就是公開而且是適度的公開"},{"start":5214.758,"end":5240.446,"text":"他不會有太多的個資外洩因為是他的家人最後我要說降階這件事情降階他其實對於我們任職條例事件細則11條的導致任職他是相違背的軍隊就這麼小一個人只要被降階你想想看全軍都知道那麼他如何再回過頭來領導他這等於是變相的說我給你一個懲罰但是你就必須離開軍中"},{"start":5242.116,"end":5252.183,"text":"在這種狀況下離開軍中的人他心裡會服嗎因此我最後的結論是求其生而不得皆死者與我皆無恨也謝謝謝謝蔣教授接下來有請中研院法律學研究所吳宗某副研究員"},{"start":5280.785,"end":5303.223,"text":"主席在座各位先進大家好首先我要先簡單自我介紹一下我的出發點我自己是過去也曾經擔任過軍法預官我是在1999年的這個軍事審判法修正之後新制上路之後最早的幾批軍法預官之一我也見識過新制的軍事審判的這個我們一起服役的"},{"start":5305.084,"end":5327.952,"text":"這個同期的同僚、同袍們以及學長、學弟們都在這裡面有很豐富的經驗那另外我也是市之地704號解釋做成過程當中有一些比較深度的參與那704號如各位所知是關於新制的軍法官考試其實對現在來講都已經是舊制了因為那之後又修改過一次"},{"start":5328.712,"end":5333.015,"text":"我並不是對國軍有什麼特別的意見,我的家人還在五指山,所以我跟大家的關係是比較密切的。"},{"start":5351.761,"end":5375.699,"text":"那首先我覺得先講結論好了第一個是我認為這件這個法案在憲政的程序上有一些需要再思考的地方我們現在是在這個總統跟立法院都進行過大選之後新任政府還沒有就職之前所以這樣的法案是不是適合在現在由即將卸任的國防部部長具名來提出而還沒有經過新任部長的這個審閱我個人認為是"},{"start":5379.682,"end":5406.625,"text":"這需要再思考的所以我在實體部分就不再發表太多的意見了那我覺得可以先簡單整理一下跟讓各位回顧一下這個目前這兩部法律其實它有非常漫長的醞釀過程前面發言的前輩們也都已經提到其實我們有一些簡單的參考資料是2016年的時候監察院曾經對這個軍審判法修正之後進行過一個調查當時就曾經邀集過學者專家當然也有"},{"start":5407.165,"end":5407.525,"text":"國防部法律事務司"},{"start":5425.943,"end":5451.332,"text":"今天與會也有不少的先進其實當時已經發表過他們的意見了那我如果簡單中整一下這個研討會的結論的話我相信大家大概都已經聽到即使有這麼多位學者專家來自不同的領域我們可以講得更直白一點大家的人生觀政治觀可能都不太完全一樣可是對於法律面的意見幾乎都是一致的對於這個軍法制度這個都是一致的"},{"start":5452.699,"end":5476.946,"text":"那這個所以我接下來我只要只分成兩個部分講第一個是我想稍微釐清一下我們現在的法律的現狀跟事實的現狀讓大家可以更這個接近溝通的時候可以更接近這個距離可以更加縮短那第二個最後是我想提出一些展望性的建議那在現狀的釐清部分第一個是我們憲政制度的現狀這個"},{"start":5481.212,"end":5504.501,"text":"在這個我剛剛提到研討會裡面其實有與會的學者主要提到大法官直接針對這個軍事審判做成過的解釋第一個是釋字436號是在這個江國慶案發生江國慶槍斃之後大概兩個月做成第二個是這個我剛才提到的釋字第704號大家比較沒有注意那其實這個"},{"start":5506.772,"end":5526.932,"text":"大法官相關的做成的跟審判有關以及跟軍人的地位有關的解釋呢其實還有非常多個我們在436號的意見書裡面特別大家可以注意到這個如果大家回去看那個意見書的話當時的這個其中一位大法官應該是董祥飛大法官應該是董祥飛大法官他"},{"start":5529.619,"end":5545.698,"text":"他提出他有提到說其實這個我國的憲政制度在262號解釋之內的時候已經指出這個軍人如果被監察院彈劾的話他並不是放在軍法體系裡面處理他不是回到軍法裡面去他是到監他是跟大家一樣到公務員懲戒委員會"},{"start":5546.839,"end":5571.401,"text":"所以在他以那個基礎呢他雖然個人是一個外省級的這個大法官在一般民間的角度可能會認為是不是會反而對國軍比較友善其實沒有他其實態度比較嚴厲他認為其實應該把法律的制度全部都一元化應該把軍法的這個審判的工作尊重這個憲法規定說司法院是國家最高的司法機關的這樣的規定把他整個放在司法權底下他是有這個其實非常"},{"start":5572.222,"end":5597.064,"text":"你說是先進不先進我們就不評論但是一個非常激烈非常強烈的意見那在研討會上也有與會的學者提出來說大家應該要注意到市治地這個86號審檢分立審檢分立的工作這個進行到最後現狀當然是變成法務部管檢察官這個司法院管各級法院但是其實在審檢分立做成的時候大多數的意見是希望連"},{"start":5598.745,"end":5624.338,"text":"這個法務部管的檢察官全部都要放在司法院下面這個想法都是很久以前就有的都不是跟民主化都沒有關係都是在這個這個早期的前輩們就都已經提出過的所以其實憲政制度的現狀真的跟這個民主化沒有直接的關係不是民主化造成的大家必須要放在很長時間的這個尺度下來觀察那第二個我覺得需要釐清的是"},{"start":5625.959,"end":5648.554,"text":"我們很常聽見一個簡單的說法其實我現在剛才聽到的一些說法當軍法預官授訓的時候我也都聽過那大家常常說這個軍隊必須要有軍紀軍法是維護軍紀的重要的這個制度之一我想這個就跟社會需要秩序法律是維持秩序的重要工具之一是一模一樣的說法"},{"start":5649.174,"end":5666.376,"text":"這個說法大家都可以接受但是沒有辦法操作是不實際的社會秩序有很多種我們的交通規則是交通秩序的重要一部分大家就不要說交通規則每天有多少違反的狀況但是我們還是每天在運用我們的道路大眾運輸工具"},{"start":5668.478,"end":5686.472,"text":"國軍也是一樣就是這些違法也好犯紀的這些事情在任何的人類的團體組織當中都一定會一直存在所以軍紀是一個非常非常廣泛巨大的概念它其實下面分為不同的手段來操作來進行那具體的這個在"},{"start":5689.456,"end":5711.256,"text":"今天我們這個草案裡面這個懲罰是其實是最直接最接近事實他可能在法律上的這個意義是最小的部分另外有兩個是他的這個比較類似公務員一樣的是懲戒再來就是刑事這三個部分所以我覺得不要一直把軍紀這個帽子抬出來因為軍紀這是一個很大的東西我們要看他是哪一個範圍的軍紀那這個"},{"start":5714.119,"end":5737.868,"text":"另外一個就是大家常常把這個軍紀的維護特別是在軍事刑法的刑事犯的這個狀況只想到處罰其實還有另外一面就是有罪不罰就是有罪不罰有罪不罰聽起來不好那將功責罪聽起來好不好因為軍事長官他的目的如果是要帶兵的時候我的兵就是這麼多我罰了一個往後面送去關了我就少一個兵啊我少一個兵我要怎麼作戰這是很現實的問題所以軍事長官的這個"},{"start":5740.689,"end":5760.141,"text":"全憲並不是只有把一個當事人罰得越重越好其實他會有現狀傷他必須要權衡其他的利益但是這樣子的事情只要發生的時候不管是嚴罰或是不罰一定會有平等權的質疑所以這是法律上必須要去處理的那第三個事情就是"},{"start":5761.762,"end":5774.574,"text":"大家談到說軍法很重要跟這個說法跟軍法的結果必須要很快要速審這兩個是沒有關係的因為大多數軍法案件都是丟到後方去丟到後面的軍事法院去沒有人在戰場這個接戰的"},{"start":5776.435,"end":5792.605,"text":"現地立刻舉行軍事法庭然後例如說就是陣前槍決這個真的是很少很少發生的事情即使是世界各國目前在國際投射兵力的狀況下這種情況都非常少發生所以這個設想本身是非常背離現實的那所以"},{"start":5795.006,"end":5815.247,"text":"接下來我就可以提出我的後面一些展望第一個是我要強調的是人權是國軍的朋友人權不是國軍的敵人這個普林斯頓大學的Linda Coley教授最近出了一本非常受歡迎的書最近翻成中文中文的標題叫《槍砲傳箭與筆墨》他說世界各地的制限運動呢都是因應海陸複合式戰爭"},{"start":5816.388,"end":5840.561,"text":"是一個很貴、人死人很多的戰爭那這種戰爭對於每一個社會都有威脅所以呢每一個社會執政者都趕快跟他的社會要達成新的協調跟共識所以人權本來就是一個徵兵的工具人權就是待遇的一部分人權越好不管我們的兵員是徵也好、牧也好他就是幾副條件所以你的人權保障越好"},{"start":5840.981,"end":5841.621,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":5858.312,"end":5885.56,"text":"總值或界限就會打破這是第一個所以制度好壞不是我們學者說的算全國的異難會公投相信我國的制度的這個外國人想要規劃他也會公投例如說我們有臺灣有同婚他為了要抵抗沒有同婚的中華人民共和國他會願意死啊因為他回到他國家他還是死啊人都會怕死但是如果我只有選擇說我先打那個不好的嘛那最後一個是對不起我只有大概10秒鐘的時間"},{"start":5887.816,"end":5902.308,"text":"最後一個是這個我們整體的法律工作體制在目前為用這兩個法律是沒有辦法處理但是這是我國現狀下基本的問題我覺得我這一輪發言就到這邊之後如果還有機會我再補充就好 謝謝好 謝謝副研究員那接下來我們請林士清助理教授"},{"start":5933.063,"end":5958.479,"text":"主席、國防部的長官還有各位先進大家好我是民傳大學財經法律系的林士勤今天很榮幸可以來這邊表示一些意見因為我自己本身是在法國留學我學的是關於刑事法方面的剛好法國也是少數有軍事審判的國家所以從我回國開始國防部就請我幫他們提供一些比較法上面的一些建議給他們作為一個立法上面的參考"},{"start":5959.399,"end":5986.313,"text":"所以今天我的發言的話我大概就是會從法國的制度上面就我所看到的一些作為一個我們修法上面的一個方向就我自己從法國法的理解來講法國法所設計的軍事的審判軍人的犯罪的處理或者是軍人有過錯的時候的這種處理基本上有兩個很重要的重點就是它是為了維護紀律跟維護軍事的專業性所以在"},{"start":5987.334,"end":6002.153,"text":"這兩個最主要的目的下面就是維護紀律跟維護軍事的專業性下去設計法國的軍人犯罪的時候該怎麼處理跟法國的軍人如果有一些為失或者是有一些過錯的時候我們該怎麼處理好"},{"start":6003.254,"end":6024.913,"text":"那第一個我們來談就是說法國的軍人他如果在執行勤務的過程當中如果在戰記訓練的過程當中或者是在一些安全性的必要或者是在後備時期他如果有一些違反紀律的過錯的時候法國法在這裡他設計成兩個方面第一個就是說你是一個紀律上面的一個違反"},{"start":6026.155,"end":6040.89,"text":"繼續法國的行政懲處分成紀律上面的違反跟專業性的一個違反那我們現在看到的我們要做的陸海空軍懲罰法的修正草案這個比較像法國的紀律性的違反比較像法國紀律性的違反"},{"start":6041.451,"end":6064.634,"text":"那法國沒有所謂的陸海空軍懲罰法的規定法國是把這個行政懲處的規定放在國防法裡面大家都知道我們的國防法有一個第三章有提到軍人的權利義務法國是把它放在法國的國防法裡面軍人權利義務來談那裡面就明擺的講到說軍人有過錯或者是有疏失的時候那麼這個時候他會受到"},{"start":6066.3,"end":6085.687,"text":"所謂的懲處而這個懲處就包括有可能是專業性上面的疏失有可能是紀律的一個違反有這樣子的一種情況那法國的國防法基本上它只用了五個條文來描述來做一個主要的一個架構而這五個條文裡面有很重要的就是包括處罰的種類還有如果跟刑事訴訟有競合的時候的一些"},{"start":6091.169,"end":6091.67,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":6106.832,"end":6120.741,"text":"我國法的《陸海空軍懲罰法》的草案基本上原則上如果應該是擺一些基本性的比如說基本的原理原則或者是跟法律保留有相關就是說基本權干預有相關的東西應該在法律層次那"},{"start":6122.702,"end":6147.736,"text":"無關基本原理原則無關法律保留的東西或許就可以放在所謂的施行細則比方說如果今天你要成立一個調查委員會的時候調查委員會的組成分子調查委員會的成員像這種東西就可以放在施行細則裡面去規範那我想點一個比較我覺得有兩個地方我稍微看到的就是說法國法是把懲罰的種類分成最輕微的第一類第二類跟第三類那"},{"start":6148.857,"end":6174.417,"text":"第一類第二類跟第三類但是我們的話沒有從輕到重我們是分成人事的我們是分成財產處分這樣子我們是分成不同的類型跟他們是從輕分到重這是不一樣的然後我有看到一個比較特別的就是說我們有罰戰這樣的一個制度那在法國法其實是沒有罰戰在國法是有訓誡那我想提到一個剛剛有幾個先進也都有提到一個我對罰戰這個制度其實有一點因為所謂的軍紀"},{"start":6175.858,"end":6193.17,"text":"軍人要服從的軍紀這個軍紀也要保障軍人的尊嚴跟權利這個在法國法也講得很清楚也就是說我們在做懲處的時候要在紀律的維護在尊嚴跟權利之間找到一個平衡那如果今天這個軍人被罰站兩個小時這個有沒有一點違反人性尊嚴的這個"},{"start":6194.611,"end":6218.921,"text":"一律這個我是有疑慮的那第二個齁剛剛有幾個先進提到所謂的降階在法國法齁他把降階歸在第二類就是第二類的那個懲處行政懲處裡面那他不是永久性的降階他是暫時性的降階換句話說如果你受到降階處分的時候最久可以降階6個月但是法國法有規定到說這個人雖然受到降階的處分但是在這個降階過程的"},{"start":6221.262,"end":6246.832,"text":"這6個月當中他當初的那些年資你依然是要幫他我就說你不能夠因為他降階所以叫年資什麼都不計甚至在降階的過程當中如果他的年資符合升遷的機會的時候你也不能因此剝奪他有任何升遷的機會這是我看到的這個部分第二個我想要來談的就是說這次提綱有第二個提到的就是我們的那個陸海空軍懲罰法的第10條裡面有去提到說"},{"start":6252.318,"end":6269.254,"text":"有提到一個比較特別的規定因為就是說我們在陸海空軍懲罰法是在規定說軍人在有什麼樣的過錯有什麼樣的疏失的情況下我們要去處罰這個軍人我們要去處罰這個軍人那我有看到說第10條這個規定它前面這句話我覺得OK就是說軍人對於權責長官的"},{"start":6272.097,"end":6272.177,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6287.288,"end":6305.822,"text":"處理這裡會衍生出一個問題就是說那到底一個大家知道軍紀為什麼要服從軍紀就是因為作戰的時候我們才有辦法指揮這整個軍隊那你現在要附給這個下級長官下級的署官或者下級的兵對長官有一個命令的審查權的話那會不會到時候你這個軍隊會有一個指揮不動的問題換句話說就是說"},{"start":6310.325,"end":6321.449,"text":"到底下了違法命令衍生了相關的責任這個不應該跟懲罰有關這個應該放在刑法裡面去處理我們在刑法裡面的刑法21條就講這個是正當防衛的問題那在法國法它也沒有處理這樣的一個問題就是說這個條文放在這裡在體系結構上有一點奇怪"},{"start":6329.392,"end":6350.969,"text":"否則的話如果你硬要放在這邊也應該要跟軍紀的維護有關也就是說長官如果因為過失下達了一個違法的指令的時候他應該受到什麼樣的懲處而不是從下屬要不要遵守違法的命令這個角度來談那最後一個我要談的就是說我們在這裡我們在軍人如果有疏失同時構成行政"},{"start":6351.73,"end":6352.911,"text":"在法國法沒有所謂的懲罰法這樣的一個規定"},{"start":6372.205,"end":6397.103,"text":"所以關於行政懲處不放在國防法關於軍事犯罪的這個審理的這個部分有一部分放在法國的軍事審判法有一部分放在法國的刑事訴訟法裡面那從體力上來看因為我們有陸海空軍懲罰法這樣子的一個規定如果涉及到行政程序跟刑事程序競合的這種情況下我們用放在一個專門的規定來處理這個是一個OK的規定那第二個我要談的就是說齁"},{"start":6398.385,"end":6418.565,"text":"這樣的一個規定的存在其實也可以避免軍事審判的那個專業性軍事的專業性被過度的侵蝕為什麼因為當初法國法國原先也有軍事法院來審理軍人的犯罪而當後來呢他把它改掉全部把軍人的犯罪移到普通法院來審理但是法國人避免為了擔心"},{"start":6419.165,"end":6441.067,"text":"移給地方法院之後軍事的專業性會受到過度侵蝕所以它設計了幾個制度第一個你要審理的法官一定要有軍事的知識也就是說地方法院一定要有一個軍事的專業庭有專門知識的法官來負責審理第二個檢察官在做相關起訴或者是相關偵查後續的時候他都要問過國防部的意見"},{"start":6441.687,"end":6459.294,"text":"沒有溫哥國防部的意見他不能有後續相關偵查的一個作為第三個就是說法國法為了確保專業性他還設計了所謂的軍法書記官的人員這個軍法書記官可以配置在法院也可以配置在部隊他是作為一個國防部跟法務部之間法國司法部之間的一個溝通的一個界面跟橋樑負責來專門處理這樣的一個案件"},{"start":6463.115,"end":6485.584,"text":"所以在這樣的一種構思的情況下如果我們的檢察官在辦理軍人案件的時候那能夠透過軍法官來協助辦理透過懂專業的人來協助處理相關軍法的事件的時候我認為這個是可以合乎軍事專業性對軍事專業確保是可以的OK好那今天以上是我的簡短的報告到這邊謝謝大家"},{"start":6488.946,"end":6490.608,"text":"主席 國防部徐副部長"},{"start":6518.976,"end":6547.763,"text":"在座的各機關的代表各位官長還有各位先進大家好我以下先針對今天的這一個公聽會所要討論的兩部法典第一部就是陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案第二部就是軍人權益事件處理法的"},{"start":6549.229,"end":6577.14,"text":"立法這是一個新立法這兩部法典那麼我做一個很簡要的一個不是介紹只是簡要的一個說明陸海空軍懲罰法歷史久遠那麼到今天已經有將近100年了其中也經過了幾次的修正"},{"start":6580.285,"end":6608.818,"text":"但是像這一次這樣的大規模的而且是全方位的在做修正的方式我覺得是一個非常劃時代的進步對於軍中人權以及維護我們的領導統一和國軍戰力具有非常大的幫助"},{"start":6610.578,"end":6637.679,"text":"如果這部法典能夠照我們現在規定的規模順利的完成立法的話我相信這是一個非常好的里程碑沒有一個法典可以說它立了以後就是完美無缺一定是要經過若干時間的驗證不斷的再精進再去修正因為法律是要滿足社會的需要"},{"start":6638.817,"end":6663.841,"text":"社會變遷法律就要跟著變遷這是必然的道理至於軍人權益事件處理法可以講把現行的這一個官兵權益保障委員會來審議我們軍人的這一個受到行政處分或者是相關措施"},{"start":6666.072,"end":6690.029,"text":"就是所謂的行政措施的這種他如果不服而提起申訴的事件再把它更加的深化廣化而且也透過我們軍事法院高等軍事法院的這個勤務庭勤務法庭的這樣子的機制去運作"},{"start":6692.885,"end":6716.929,"text":"並把我們這個官民權益保障委員會放到我們軍事地方法院裡頭去讓它制度化讓它能夠結合這個專業並且有效率的去做審議處理軍人的權益事件這更是大大的保障了軍人的權益"},{"start":6718.288,"end":6746.05,"text":"所以我覺得這兩部法典我個人覺得非常的高興能夠看到國防部尤其在各級長官還有省司長的這幾年的領導之下能夠很認真的在處理這麼重要的兩部法典我覺得這個是非常非常值得肯定那我首先因為今天是審議這兩部法典我也就先依照"},{"start":6747.595,"end":6771.6,"text":"這一個給我們的大綱提綱五個提綱我來提出我個人的看法第一個提綱的第一題是說這一個我們的懲罰法裡面對於各種懲罰的這個執行對象或要件線索是不是一律應該在本法規範可不可以在施行細則中規範等等"},{"start":6778.144,"end":6806.26,"text":"4至443號解釋大致上的意思是說什麼樣的這一個事項應該用法律或者是用這一個法律授權的法規命令或者是用行政規則去規定要看這些事項的性質來決定那我們現行的懲罰法"},{"start":6807.662,"end":6831.931,"text":"其實已經就把各種懲罰的對象包括軍官、士官、士兵還有他要懲罰的種類都規定在憲刑法條裡面的第12條到第14條那對於各種懲罰施予的方法、要件跟計算標準、處分等等在第17條到27條也都有明文的規定"},{"start":6834.739,"end":6848.623,"text":"對於懲罰如何執行在第4章也有規定這現行法就已經是依照443號解釋的意旨並沒有違背那現在呢這一個修正草案仍然也是一本這樣子的立法體例所以我認為我們的修正草案"},{"start":6862.472,"end":6891.272,"text":"有關這一個重要性的必要性的規定是規定在我們的懲罰法修正草案裡面至於把它這一些次要性的需要這一個詮釋性的這一些規定把它放在詳細的放在實行細則我個人的這一個建議是如果還是過於這一個龐大就是這些細部性的規定"},{"start":6895.342,"end":6913.333,"text":"用私刑細則你也沒辦法完全的涵蓋的話也可以用在本法在這一個懲罰法裡面明確的有個法律具體明確的授權去訂定其他的法規命令資委補充"},{"start":6915.228,"end":6925.637,"text":"所以國防部朝此方向去修正草案去準備這一部法典我覺得與443號解釋的這一個意旨是切合的那至於所謂的在這第一題裡面提到的兩個問題對服役28年上校街"},{"start":6940.984,"end":6968.972,"text":"這個上校的這個降級或者是這個剝奪減少退出給予的懲罰這些是不是他的要件等等是不是要規定在法律裡面其實這個我剛剛在我剛剛的說明裡面也可以理解如果要放到施行細則也不是不可以乃至於有法律明確授權具體明確授權而去另外訂定一個專門的法規命令也是可以的"},{"start":6971.991,"end":6996.299,"text":"第二題現行懲罰法第6條將軍人的服從義務比照一般文職公務員明令如果認為長官違背命令並且部署向長官報告在長官以書面下達命令後才有服從的義務這一個如果長官沒有下達命令就視為是撤回命令這一個部分"},{"start":6997.623,"end":7021.873,"text":"這個情形不分命令內容的情況一律要求長官用書面下達這種情況是不是合宜呢在我們軍中命令是實行軍事任務跟奉行軍事紀律的依據命令是不可以任意的無辜的違抗"},{"start":7024.258,"end":7050.76,"text":"按照命令的性質我們大概可以大致上可以把它大分為兩大類第一個就是與軍事有關的命令第二個就是當然就是與軍事不是那麼直接有關的其他軍事以外的命令例如是一般勤務命令或者是勤務以外的命令我們的先行懲罰法第6條"},{"start":7052.95,"end":7081.021,"text":"的這個命令在解釋上這些都包括在內可是我們軍人如果觸犯的是軍事有關的命令那就是所謂的等一下第三題要談到的會有行政法跟這一個刑事法的競合在這種情況下依照我們的依照這一個行政法法第26條的規定一行為如果有刑事法與行政法"},{"start":7082.086,"end":7104.699,"text":"當然是要送到法院去行事法委這個優先處理行政法就暫時就不做了可是26條也講得很清楚其他的這一個行為但其行為處以其他種類行政法或得沒入的這一個規定還是可以依法宣告或裁處"},{"start":7106.072,"end":7134.167,"text":"而且刑事法如果經過不起訴還起訴確定或無罪免訴不受理不負審理等等這一些的話還是可以回來處罰他的行政法的部分所以我認為啊如果說要讓長官啊我覺得這一條國防部啊這個想法我不曉得現在是不是一定要把這一個用書面長官如果覺得還仍然要維持我的這一個命令一定要用書面去下達"},{"start":7135.632,"end":7161.989,"text":"這件事如果還要維持的話我個人有一個疑慮我舉個例子就是長官如果他向部署下達命令是在沒有公開的場合也沒有文字文書落下來就是口頭的命令那部署認為這個命令是違法的向他意見俱深"},{"start":7164.213,"end":7191.806,"text":"並且請他用書面給我一個書面的這個命令如果說我們現在可以把這個要給書面的這個東西刪掉的話那長官說依照現行規定反正都是長官負責嘛但是呢之後果然違法果然有責任部署說我是依照長官你的指示做的"},{"start":7192.711,"end":7219.469,"text":"可是長官說我哪裡有指示過你我完全沒有指示你啊你把白紙黑字拿出來給我看你把錄音拿出來給我看這個時候百口莫辯所以我覺得這樣的情況還是不能排除當初我們會把現行法規定成必須要以素面在下達"},{"start":7220.854,"end":7245.596,"text":"其實也就是基於這個考量所以我覺得這一點如果說國防部認為是可以接受的話其實我覺得如果是現行規定並沒有任何自愛難行也沒有發生過什麼不好的這一個狀況也沒有出過什麼問題現行的規定如果不修倒也無妨這是我個人的前見"},{"start":7248.226,"end":7261.691,"text":"那麼我不曉得時間已經講那麼快就結束了其餘的我都寫在我的書面上敬請各位先進可以來參考我的報告就到這裡結束 謝謝謝謝韓國恩那我們接下來邀請軍中人權促進會黃媽媽陳碧兒"},{"start":7287.758,"end":7312.274,"text":"各位長官各位先進大家好專家我很抱歉我29年的軍中人權活動接觸我有很多很多的實務經驗但是我沒有在現場上的各位的一個專家學者的一個這麼強的一個學士"},{"start":7315.916,"end":7342.642,"text":"那我先銜接一下剛剛韓教授的我都稱呼他韓教授因為當年推動這個全保會成立通過剛開始在制定的時候韓教授付出了相當相當多的心力那我沒有想到20幾年後終於有讓他能夠立法這可能就是要感謝國防部軍法師"},{"start":7345.796,"end":7370.997,"text":"那剛剛韓教授講的在我的實務經歷上真的是碰到了這麼多長官下了令我曾經看聽過一個媽媽她已經哭瘋了因為高莊檢孩子長官教她說你這個多餘的料件因為你家比較近所以先放到你家結果被舉報了私藏軍械"},{"start":7375.776,"end":7377.937,"text":"一台車出去從西瓜園過去"},{"start":7401.078,"end":7416.989,"text":"上校叫兵說你下去偷那個西瓜把那個西瓜採西瓜他沒有說偷這個兵不敢不下去啊他不敢不下去他下去拿了上來之後被原主抓到了人家要告他偷竊軍法欸"},{"start":7422.506,"end":7443.002,"text":"可是他說是我們上校隊長叫我下去的我不敢不下去啊明知道那是違法他不敢不下去但是長官不承認他就必須去擔了這個在我的一個一千多件20幾年一千多件協助的案例上"},{"start":7444.178,"end":7444.338,"text":"主席"},{"start":7464.585,"end":7464.745,"text":"中下階主管"},{"start":7475.236,"end":7491.19,"text":"高階一般也不大會去下這樣的命令所以我希望說師長這邊可能要注意一下還有我最care的師長應該知道我最care的是說這一條說可以賦予部隊長官來對這一些"},{"start":7497.878,"end":7500.699,"text":"副部長也在場師長也在場還有各位專家學者我希望你們幫忙一下"},{"start":7527.528,"end":7554.098,"text":"這一條真的要非常小心部隊最容易出問題的就在主觀裁量權常常有一些主觀的裁量權做出了很多不當跟過分的一個裁處讓這一些部署官士兵受到非常多的一個委屈"},{"start":7555.64,"end":7573.387,"text":"紅樓301會議"},{"start":7573.584,"end":7574.044,"text":"當初﹑當初的"},{"start":7603.139,"end":7620.732,"text":"軍官服役滿一年就可以報退所有的處罰、禮賠、條款歸還給國防部各軍種自己去制定你們知道有多少的問題存在嗎?"},{"start":7621.977,"end":7623.939,"text":"每個軍種他定的理賠金額都不一樣軍醫的理賠高於非官的理賠當然各專業領域人才栽培不容易可是他的標準他的計算到底是怎麼計算的非官的栽培不高嗎"},{"start":7643.13,"end":7666.831,"text":"軍醫的栽培不高嗎?都很高啊都很高可是你們知道在這個軍醫體系裡面長官為了要留人不讓人家退當這一些底下的軍醫官或者相關人員想要退的時候面對高額那麼高額七八百萬一千多萬高額的賠償的時候"},{"start":7669.733,"end":7682.363,"text":"你知道發生多少問題嗎有自殺的有割腕的甚至有拿刀片去割開去自殺這都沒有你們都看不到大家都看不到所以我希望說真的各位幫幫忙這一條我真的非常非常的在意主觀裁量權已經很多了"},{"start":7698.291,"end":7723.745,"text":"已經很大了這兩步法如果修得完善一點我相信對軍中的管理跟人權已經有很大很大的進步它雖然不會是百分之百但是所有我從29年來所接觸的軍方隨著時空環境的變化需要去徵修"},{"start":7725.149,"end":7744.526,"text":"這些條例之外其實規定密密麻麻都是都有啊問題都出在哪裡都出在人為的執行上都出在這裡啊它不是它沒有它出在法律規定上這些規定上"},{"start":7745.615,"end":7754.838,"text":"沒有那麼多所有的長官動不動都說依法行政依法行政事實上根本最不守法的就是他們這些部隊長官最不守法現在雖然有全保會的一個申訴但是因為全保會他沒有法"},{"start":7767.844,"end":7775.649,"text":"他沒有法所以當全保會的委員裁定這一件申訴是不符的時候發回部隊還是回到"},{"start":7779.21,"end":7797.941,"text":"主觀的材料全上所以這裡可以再修法把它立法完成我真的是非常樂觀其成當年我在推動這個法能夠成立的時候真的非常辛苦我整天都守在立法院"},{"start":7798.761,"end":7811.244,"text":"推成立之後韓教授他們真的也付出相當多的一個專業的心力在共同來修訂他那現在蔣司長真的謝謝那這一部分應該全保會這一部分那他委員的聘任還有就委員的聘任是不是說"},{"start":7825.796,"end":7825.856,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7850.273,"end":7850.693,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7869.193,"end":7871.513,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7898.278,"end":7898.478,"text":"OK"},{"start":7927.662,"end":7928.024,"text":"羅美玲委員"},{"start":7938.926,"end":7964.472,"text":"謝謝主席今天非常感謝有這麼多的專家學者提供這麼多的意見讓我們在修法立法的時候有更多的思考剛剛我有聽到蔣大偉教授有提到就是說我們要鞏固戰力我們也要兼顧人權讓每一位軍人的權益能夠受到法律的保護"},{"start":7965.632,"end":7990.109,"text":"那我本期今天想要提到的其實軍人還有一個權益今天大家一直可能都沒有提到因為這一群異難可能也是大家平常可能沒有注意到的一群就是說其實軍人的語言權益也要其實要說到保障那其實有很多這個旅居在可能從小就是旅居在國外的一群孩子"},{"start":7991.646,"end":8012.203,"text":"可能在服役的時候他們就回到台灣那也有一群新住民子女可能從小就回到媽媽的母國去那對中文是非常的不熟悉那等到服役的時候呢他們就回到台灣來做服役可是問題是呢前陣子其實發生了好幾件這個事件就是"},{"start":8013.644,"end":8014.024,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":8034.571,"end":8059.637,"text":"真的是格格不入到後來是以智能偏低來驗退這是一個非常遺憾的一件事情純粹就是因為語言的關係那另外去年也曾經發生一件事情也有一位從美國回來的這個孩子他滿腔熱血回到台灣來服役結果跟同袍之間溝通也是非常非常的不佳到後來發生了這個霸凌的事件"},{"start":8062.858,"end":8063.198,"text":"國防部委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8088.65,"end":8089.171,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":8104.974,"end":8106.436,"text":"建議在我們軍權法的第37條附審就書面審查決定之其實這裡我們可以就他們的這個權益救濟需求我和他們在提起這個附審申訴在申訴或行政訴訟的時候"},{"start":8122.115,"end":8137.368,"text":"我們不能因為他的語言不同導致他的權益受損所以希望國防部這裡可以參酌刑事訴訟法第99條提供其必要的同意服務確保他的權益這是本期在這裡提出的一點以上謝謝謝謝羅美玲委員接下來我們邀請林楚英委員發言"},{"start":8156.196,"end":8173.474,"text":"謝謝主席各位立法院的同仁我們與會的各位學者專家跟先進感謝剛剛你們都提供了專業的建議那麼本期其實是來自於民間我想在於民間當中一個公司最重要的是他必須要有一個公司的治理雖然"},{"start":8174.215,"end":8174.415,"text":"本集今天出來發言"},{"start":8194.264,"end":8201.765,"text":"是支持國防部來針對陸海空軍懲罰法律辦法的草案跟軍人權益事件的處理的草案相關來做修法的給予肯定跟支持我們都知道如果是以企業體來說的話有許多龐雜龐大的企業體他也必須要有企業體內部的一些相關的管理辦法來做內控、內機以及工作的管理那麼這一次的修法當中其實我們知道的是在草案當中有提到修正案因為"},{"start":8222.369,"end":8238.527,"text":"公務員跟軍人不同所以要精簡軍中的行政流程但是是否能以軍事實務的需要這麼簡單的一個推論那麼就能夠降低國軍地修中的程序保障這個部分我是希望國防部也能夠審慎的思考"},{"start":8240.009,"end":8246.391,"text":"那麼另外就是一間公司在設計跟執行它的內控的時候那麼它因為會有所屬的產業不一樣它會有不一樣的行政的法則包括本席過去其實是待在財政委員會金融監理以及金融監督對於這些金融系統來講它是非常重要的所以它會有一些相關的內規跟法則是符合金融業它的產業面所需求的"},{"start":8266.118,"end":8288.973,"text":"那麼我會用這樣的比喻是因為我相信在場不論是專家學者或者是現在國防部的這些長官們官員們你們其實是更了解在一個部隊的帶領底下所需要的部分他有他需要的但是呢陸海空軍的這個懲罰法上面上一次修正我們也都知道就是因為軍中發生了紅中秋這樣子讓大家其實都不願意"},{"start":8290.596,"end":8296.875,"text":"再來面對一次那麼陳舊的法規確實是有其修正的必要所以說這一次"},{"start":8298.035,"end":8317.273,"text":"的這樣的一個修法很感謝今天主席開了這個公聽會讓專家學者的意見能夠表達出來我們也希望其實給予軍人榮譽之外那麼在軍人的紀律當中如何的有效來推動那麼如何能夠在因應現有的這個規定之下能夠讓優質"},{"start":8320.316,"end":8331.433,"text":"的國人不論男女都願意投身軍旅我想這是非常重要的所以在一定的法規之內那麼保障他們的權益我想這也是非常重要的謝謝"},{"start":8333.234,"end":8358.192,"text":"好 謝謝林楚瑩委員接下來進行發言委員徐曉新委員徐曉新委員徐曉新委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在那我們目前專家學者跟本院委員的發言告一個段落現在請行政機關代表做回應和說明我們責成業管機單位國防部法律司省市委司長來代表回應請"},{"start":8362.182,"end":8363.288,"text":"我們時間5分鐘夠不夠?夠了,好"},{"start":8367.645,"end":8395.956,"text":"主席各位今天與會的專家學者各位先進大家好我是國防部法律事務司司長那我今天就很簡單的就剛剛各位先進所各位專家學者剛剛在整個過程當中所提的一些一些問題我做一個很簡單的一個相關的一個回覆首先真的是非常的感謝就是大部分剛剛我所聽到的剛剛的先進們對於這個我們要做這兩"},{"start":8397.036,"end":8411.842,"text":"兩國法律的一個立法大部分都是持著一個比較正面的一個態度這個我們非常的感謝那這整個立法的這個過程我在先前在詢答的時候我有跟立法院的一些長官委員有做了一些報告"},{"start":8413.122,"end":8433.193,"text":"我簡單的回應一下,剛剛各位老師有提到有關於我們這個立法有關於跟國軍的人權的問題跟管理上面的問題,其實確實我們今天之所以要修這兩部法律,我們就是希望說能夠讓管理的方式或是說執行的層面能夠更明確"},{"start":8433.473,"end":8433.793,"text":"主席"},{"start":8451.485,"end":8451.665,"text":"國防局局長"},{"start":8468.928,"end":8488.958,"text":"目的也就是希望說在人權的方面能夠做一個一個比較進步的一個規範那第二個就有關於剛剛也是今天提綱裡面講的就有一些規範不足的地方可不可以透過透過施行細則或是法規命令的方式來做那我們自己有盤點一下我們這一次的相關的法律的條文除了條文的規範以外"},{"start":8489.778,"end":8517.438,"text":"我記得當初授權要訂定兩部法律要訂14個法規命令這14個法規命令裡面我們會把一些該規範的東西我們都會納到那個裡面去那同樣的今天的議題裡面也有講到原來我們在調查專章裡面會把一些刑事程序的規範有放到這個裡面來那確實這是比較過去比較少見的但是我們今天之所以會這樣子放也是希望說能夠不要再去動"},{"start":8518.299,"end":8533.178,"text":"因為我們在危機事件裡面,如果觸犯到相關違法情況的時候,能夠做一個有效的一個處理,在接受檢查官的指揮之下做一個有效的處理,能夠讓所有的這些案件能夠做一個比較明確的一個規範。"},{"start":8534.44,"end":8550.642,"text":"另外剛剛也有很多先進還有剛剛黃媽媽也有講到說有關於那個權責的問題不光是罰款不光是降階那這些我們在未來的在相關的法規裡面我們會定那罰款的話尤其我上次剛好有機會跟黃媽媽碰面她也特別有講"},{"start":8551.863,"end":8559.505,"text":"說部隊長的這個權責這個權責確實我們現在現在的陸海空軍懲罰法的事情細則它本來就有針對什麼樣的懲罰授權到什麼樣的階層是有的譬如我們講撤職撤職是軍人最嚴厲的一個懲罰它並不是所有的人都能夠去行使撤職的這個種類那未來針對罰款也是一樣我們認為說"},{"start":8577.87,"end":8590.843,"text":"參考公務員的規範縱算有5000到100萬的罰款但是也不是一個連長或是一個排長我們自己目前內部有過有一些草案的一個規劃並不是給授權到很基層的人都會去做這種懲罰那什麼樣的權責的主觀"},{"start":8594.687,"end":8614.496,"text":"中校階營長級以上的主官甚至於上校階旅長級以上的主官然後他可能可以給予比如說5萬元以下的一個法寬的一個權限或是說8萬元、3萬元等等那這個我們會做一個相關的討論那至於降階剛剛有非常多的前輩也提到了降階降階確實"},{"start":8616.437,"end":8638.308,"text":"在先前因為法令不是很完備所以說有了降階的這個種類但是一直都沒有做因為降階它將來要怎麼樣的復職會有一個很大的一個問題那這一次我們還是把降階這個保留呢因為我們也有參考外國的立法例確實外國立法例他們有這些相關的規定那我們把降階放在這個地方就是因為"},{"start":8639.629,"end":8658.767,"text":"軍人我剛剛報告過最重的懲罰是撤職撤職是連軍人身份都沒有他過去所累積的年資他可以領的退休金等等通通都沒有了那降階是我們希望說對於行為相對來講比撤職還要輕微的一些基層軍官也好甚至於高階軍官也好"},{"start":8659.307,"end":8679.012,"text":"我們希望說能夠有一個降階的這個彈性,如果他還願意留在軍中的話,那他還是可以繼續服役,他可能單位去做一些調整,那這個部分的話是有關於降階,那至於降階,原來委員有提的一些相關的一些限制,那這些限制我們將來可能會在細節裡面來去做一些相關的一個討論"},{"start":8680.672,"end":8702.952,"text":"最後還有兩點就是剛剛羅委員有提到的一個語言的問題我想這個是一個很寶貴的一個意見我們在陸海空軍懲罰法裡面在調查上面如果在語言限制有障礙的話那我們有一個相關的規範那至於救濟法的這個部分的話我們覺得將來這個我們一定會注意那委員如果說有提的這個相關的修正動議的話我們也站在我們的立場我們也很樂意來配合"},{"start":8704.193,"end":8718.404,"text":"那最後面就是剛剛還有蔣教授提到的這個有關於修復斯正義的這個問題那確實我們國軍目前在最近幾年尤其是空軍還有陸軍都有在做修復斯的有關於"},{"start":8719.445,"end":8719.465,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8738.482,"end":8757.171,"text":"在體力上面跟其他的那個制度的概念上面可能會有一點點的還可以討論那所以說但是修復的這件事情我們並不會說沒有放進去就不做任何案例只要是可以不論是離開或是他接受了任何的懲罰然後只要是能夠讓他"},{"start":8758.812,"end":8760.233,"text":"請問一下法務部有沒有補充說明司法院有沒有補充說明"},{"start":8789.875,"end":8805.148,"text":"國安局有沒有補充說明?教育部?沒有?你們如果說要我會很驚喜,可以啊海委會有沒有要補充說明?沒有本期提醒國防部,國軍是很重要的"},{"start":8806.294,"end":8824.008,"text":"但國軍是人組成的我們常常在討論國防部的時候都誤以為國防部無所不能什麼都能做命令下達什麼都能執行然後背了一大堆責任在身上要求了一堆事情在身上然後最後一層一層往下跌越基層越倒楣"},{"start":8825.106,"end":8854.366,"text":"所以我本期在看這兩個法我提醒國防部參考就是說當然我們要思考法是不是有周延有沒有橫頻有沒有符合比例原則然後呢我們部隊是一個紀律單位所以要求的是紀律管理嚴明可是我們又希望保護他的人權希望能夠有人性這兩個看起來是好像可以說得很平和其實這兩個有一些地方是會抵觸的加上主觀的感受不同你認為你很開明跟我講話我覺得我受了委屈很嚴厲"},{"start":8855.026,"end":8855.111,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8856.24,"end":8885.62,"text":"他沒辦法量化所以在訂這個法律的時候彈性不要太多、空白授權不要太多會讓我們你知道嗎在執行這一套法律的基層官士兵都30歲上下而已都是年輕人血氣方剛的年輕人所以當這個法授權給他可以去做這樣的事情這是好事我們的處罰有法為所本我們的救濟有法律為根本以前權保啊什麼都有點像在行政程序走而已那"},{"start":8886.62,"end":8911.709,"text":"當法授權給這一群我們國家重要的國軍弟兄姊妹們年輕人的時候可能各位將領比較年長了你們也經過那個時間就要去思考這個法握在手上的時候有沒有過多的授權有沒有產生哪怕一萬個出一件事情我們都受不了這本席做提醒另外圖法不足以自行我們訂了這兩個法條文那麼多沒人會背啦"},{"start":8912.569,"end":8934.995,"text":"但是你給他一個簡單指令授權之後這個人的素質夠不夠專業素養夠不夠人員的量夠不夠我的處理的工具夠不夠這裡面其實可能國防部的長官們可能多費一點心我們寧可把他修對修好來而不要建立一個法今天學者專家花一個早上時間我特別謝謝黃媽媽妳半天來"},{"start":8937.275,"end":8960.536,"text":"來提供寶貴的意見,還有書面要給我們這個法是我們的共同完成的事情,有一天如果會變共業的話,我們都要一起面對所以今天非常感謝我們與會的學者專家,謝謝你們的寶貴時間也謝謝我們相關夜館的主管機關,你們來參與聆聽,務必把它做好我們在委員會這裡,議事人員會在週三上午"},{"start":8963.098,"end":8978.141,"text":"把逐字稿打好送給每一位參與審查法案的委員來做參考另外因為本週三下午聯席審查就要討論這個本次公聽會探討的兩部法律相關提案如有委員"},{"start":8978.902,"end":8994.611,"text":"或黨團要提修正動議本席再一次提醒請於週三上午10點半前送交議事人員以便會診並於當天下午印發遇時我們就沒辦法處理了否則這個法會沒辦法收斂"},{"start":8996.152,"end":9010.13,"text":"另外今天的公聽會發言到此結束所有的發言都將列入紀錄刊登立法院公報如果與會人員有書面補充或復見請於今天會後下班之前"},{"start":9012.593,"end":9031.692,"text":"5點半之前提交給我們議事人員我們一併會會診進入我們國家的公報裡面那今天所有發言都已結束另外有莊瑞雄委員、黃仁委員提供書面意見一併列入立法院公報本次公聽會到此結束大家辛苦散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}