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討論後再進行逐條審查。"},{"start":1970.842,"end":1974.903,"text":"時間是3分鐘。好,謝謝主席。那今天我想民進黨所提的這個國會閹割法案還有民進黨這個今天的所有的一個程序內容我倒是有一個對民進黨的一個很重要的一個建議"},{"start":2001.025,"end":2029.796,"text":"為什麼呢?因為我非常喜歡引用民進黨過去的意識慣例。那先不講遠的啦,遠的民進黨什麼五分鐘停止討論,散會進覆惡毒,比比皆是,斑斑可考。那現在民進黨少數了,然後如果說今天提案停止討論,就是不民主。民進黨五分鐘停止討論就民主。國民黨今天覺得討論的差不多,停止討論就不民主。"},{"start":2030.782,"end":2059.069,"text":"然後民進黨過去想要表決的案子想要審的議案禁覆二讀已經變成一個立法院的常態在民進黨多數的時候國民黨禁覆二讀就是犯天條大罪一樁但是在這邊這些過去的種種就先當過去史但至少今天談到國會改革國民黨率先提出國會改革法案"},{"start":2060.271,"end":2086.987,"text":"幾乎是這一次的會期一開議我們就提出來了然後開議提出來之後也收到社會廣泛的針對國民黨提案的國會改革法案有很多的討論民進黨有很多的指教啦大體上就一直講說你的社會溝通不夠啊大家對你的了解不夠啊你的提案內容大家不清楚啊對不對那你這樣子討論的話是不是資訊不夠詳細啊"},{"start":2089.748,"end":2098.437,"text":"結果我們就有一位非常民主的吳宗憲召委擔任主席的時候民進黨的意見他非常尊重排了一場專報就針對國民黨的國會改革法案排一場專報開了一場公聽會還是不夠結果我們的民進黨要求加開公聽會"},{"start":2112.049,"end":2131.188,"text":"這個要求提出來之後吳宗憲召委覺得這個改締得非常好啊所以呢馬上就延期兩個禮拜本來都要進行逐條討論了國民黨為了等民進黨我們的版本等了兩個禮拜就是讓中嘉賓委員有機會再多開兩場公聽會"},{"start":2133.777,"end":2149.047,"text":"對,三場公聽會再加上一場專案報告,當然中央兵委員講說這兩場公聽會,國民黨版本,那個民進黨版本有討論,錯!那兩個版本齁,你在4月3號的吳宗憲召開的時候,民進黨版本根本沒出來。"},{"start":2150.348,"end":2166.95,"text":"四月十號跟四月十一號召開的那兩場,民進黨的版本還在復一期,實際上只列為參考資料。大家回去看公聽會啦,都在講國民黨的。我建議很簡單啦,很簡單啦,民進黨用民進黨回力標打自己啦。"},{"start":2168.195,"end":2194.466,"text":"繼然溝通這麼重要國會改革如此神聖國民黨為了應和民進黨的溝通重要國會改革神聖三場公聽會加一場專報我也拜託民進黨我們主席啊能不能從善如流啊從民進黨至善如流啊三場公聽會舉辦完一場專報舉辦完之後再來審查資訊充分比較重要啦民進黨最民主我們要效法民進黨以上"},{"start":2196.085,"end":2202.466,"text":"主席各位同仁羅志祥委員常常扮演一個角色就是顛倒是非然後開直播然後迷惑大眾"},{"start":2223.322,"end":2242.714,"text":"根本胡言亂語,整個過程大家很清楚,我一直講說民進黨默說民主,默說憲法,默說出一切,無所不默說,說他最近樓市長委員說要默說我們的麥克風,這個是他昨天晚上說要默說,我說民進黨一直講話。"},{"start":2244.158,"end":2272.481,"text":"他們在做什麼行為?他所做的行為就是說他要粉線亂成所有的法案或是人行法裡面全部讓你們民進黨沒有機會講話。讓聲音不能出去。於是他扮演的什麼?4月15號我們可以看得到嗎?強行出委員會嘛。那本來這國會改是前面有公聽的事我們去爭起來然後中宣召委再去排。我中宣委員只有排場。"},{"start":2274.422,"end":2296.64,"text":"國會改革在立法院常常有,但是都有經過一個完整的程序。甚至我們認為,國會都說的時候,認為有疑慮的我們也不讓他通過,也不敢讓他通過。這是大家都很清楚的過程嘛。那今天顛倒示威,然後說民進黨給我們排兩場公共會議,公共會議是我們自己排的。"},{"start":2297.501,"end":2306.179,"text":"於是為我們看到4月15號強出委會到五點多我們不得不要請你三個東西就是阻止你們迴旋亂正嘛"},{"start":2307.338,"end":2330.635,"text":"然後接下來4月18號換我們,你們就來商會掉嘛。然後早上9點多就商會掉。就沒收委員會嘛。換我們排的時候,你就把他沒收掉。再接下來兩場也是一樣啊。一路沒收到底嘛。所以就是齁,讓民進黨版本不能在委員會被討論。讓國民黨版本也不能被討論。然後一路喘關嘛。"},{"start":2332.156,"end":2345.911,"text":"那在想說一個月到期5月15、17號的時候可以刪讀嘛。然後刪讀的時候也不寄一套來協商嘛。那或是協商一個席次。然後呢,在A會的時候聽討論就一直錄表決。"},{"start":2349.772,"end":2366.305,"text":"這種計畫都沒有用,違憲就是違憲,臺灣人民在看到這一刻你們搞什麼鬼,尤其現在不是只有委員沒收,承信委員會也沒有提案給你擋掉,那承信委員沒有擋掉的時候,那漏網之魚只有院委給你擋。"},{"start":2367.577,"end":2386.602,"text":"就是如此嘛,所以現在就是說,整個國會是在國民黨副分局和洪國昌黨的掌控下,全部被夭壽枉。這國會已死了。這國會已香港化了。在裡面有沒有看到,中大法案哪有禁錄二讀道理,定位法除了禁二讀。"},{"start":2388.302,"end":2412.373,"text":"憲法重複經過讀,立法院自己條約重複經過讀,這個都離譜嘛。第二法你現在要把它改,沒有關係,你這分秒必爭,請問已經定價已經漲了,而且非常不可,你不可能從頭再來,下次要再讓定價不知道什麼時候,在委員好好討論不可以嗎?因為你們沒有邏輯基礎,沒有要編嘛,婚姻期間沒辦法講什麼話。"},{"start":2414.116,"end":2439.619,"text":"只是要下紙巾而已啊。你們大家都競爭這國會是這樣的嗎?這一家立法可以為什麼要禁會圖?立法院自己條例為什麼要自己禁會圖啊?這本來有40個版本在啊。你們把國民黨自己抽出來、民主黨自己抽出來。然後呢?然後就你趕在前面,後面的人全部不如審查。我們從來不敢顧慣這一套的。中央法院從來不禁會圖。"},{"start":2440.64,"end":2457.393,"text":"即便我們自己要進入我們都反對,所謂事先到期的還有事先性的才進入,那要進入才會同意,那要進入才會同意,從來沒有那種胡搞的。所以今天要告訴各位,我們過去有衝突的時候沒有辦法開會的時候,"},{"start":2459.494,"end":2484.651,"text":"主席臺北佔領,才有直接到委員會去。這個會議一定是朝夕大家談好的,而且真的有重要性。所以不要顛倒思維,要協議、要協議。老實講,你是年輕人啊。現在人家說話要多,你以後要面對選民考驗,你不要躲在深藍的族群裡面,然後你把那些人鞏固好。這個國家和你都,你這樣的行為你認為會一直,會一直讓你當選嗎?"},{"start":2486.152,"end":2487.052,"text":"好,謝謝的程序發言。現在請問林委員您是...好,程序發言時間3分鐘。"},{"start":2514.383,"end":2514.403,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":2533.575,"end":2549.053,"text":""},{"start":2549.133,"end":2564.082,"text":"民進黨的版本不管是職權行為法這一個版本中央兵召委屢次在排了而上禮拜我們也這個就是民進黨希望禁服二讀我想這幾個法案不是說國民黨不願意讓大家來進入諸條討論其實我剛才講過"},{"start":2568.365,"end":2593.852,"text":"大家要討論什麼都要了解,我想柯建民總長你也了解,大家要討論什麼東西心知肚明,為什麼不願意把這些相關民進黨的版本,正如我們剛才羅志祥委員講的,先開一個公聽會,針對民進黨的版本,除了我們立法委員已經在我們的討論的時候就專報的時候已經有相關的一個詢答的一個過程,"},{"start":2594.352,"end":2609.148,"text":"那是不是再排個公聽會讓我們社會更了解說民進黨的版本是在說什麼?我覺得國民黨的版本都已經講了三次 召開三次公聽會民進黨再召開一兩次就有什麼困難嗎?這搞什麼困難?"},{"start":2610.309,"end":2626.937,"text":"我們未來就是說如果在召開不管是我們的黨團協商也好或者未來我們的院長來召開協商的時候大家還有很多的機會就針對國民兩黨的版本大家都可以提出自己的看法跟意見"},{"start":2628.558,"end":2643.366,"text":"這個流程很清楚啊為什麼就是一定要在這個每次屢次的不斷的重複的排這樣的相同的一個不管是行為法的法案或者是立法院之間行使法的這個法案這重複的排我真的不曉得"},{"start":2644.326,"end":2647.007,"text":"我覺得我們還是務實的面對整個立法的過程。我想我們的這個國民黨絕對沒有所謂沒收我們討論這樣的一個情形的。"},{"start":2666.594,"end":2694.229,"text":"這個到了協商是可以講清楚說明白但是召開公聽會這件事情我覺得很重要針對民進黨的版本我們的專家學者的看法怎麼樣這個我想對未來這個我們進入協商的時候把民進黨的版本在協商的時候讓我們更了解然後大家一起來談也不是說不可能把你們的版本來納入我們未來協商成為一個我們最後定案的一個條文"},{"start":2694.929,"end":2698.779,"text":"不是不可能啦所以大家不用這樣疊對疊在那邊這個預設立場說一定不會把你們的條文納進來啦以上謝謝"},{"start":2705.353,"end":2723.418,"text":"好,謝謝林委員失明。再次說明一下,因為吳釗偉跟本席我們在安排,包括公聽會的時候,在本席安排的那兩次,我們看到的這些法案都在那兩次公聽會所提送的資料當中,以上說明。接下來請我們莊瑞雄委員發言,繼續下來是范雲。"},{"start":2729.68,"end":2748.594,"text":"謝謝昭緯,在場所有媒體朋友。其實我剛聽了林士明委員這樣講法,聽起來好像外界會講的覺得很合理,但是這個內心所隱藏的那種兇惡,其實大家都非常清楚,你沒有辦法說服你們的黨團。"},{"start":2749.815,"end":2771.185,"text":"可以啊,你說要把所有的法案全部都一包,然後大家來做協商,民進黨是願意的啊。那我們今天來看啊,今天我們所提出來要審查這一法案,倒也不像什麼,我們羅志強委員提到這個叫做閹割法案,這個怎麼會是閹割法案?因比如說啊,你在我們今天的立法委員行為法第七條之一,各位把它想想看,今天這個條文裡面要再來公聽嗎?"},{"start":2776.936,"end":2785.142,"text":"國會要置外於整個法律之外嗎?可以這樣子嗎?你說這個地方你們認為要公聽的意義在什麼地方?你說爭議在哪裡?爭議在哪裡?立法委員行為法七條之一裡面,你說當立法委員去涉及到性騷擾或性培歧視這樣的言行裡面,立法院到底要不要約束?除非你認為不需要嘛。"},{"start":2800.902,"end":2828.464,"text":"那你這一條你說把它定下去叫做閹割好像是講的也不太好所以羅志強這個講法剛好相反沒有制定立法委員行為法七條之一立法委員涉及到整個姓蕭或者姓北歧視把它定下去是閹割這不好吧這講法好像覺得立法委員好像是誰都不能做就是立法委員可以做這個也不好所以我反而會覺得說有共識的部分那是不是大家可以"},{"start":2829.451,"end":2831.773,"text":"我相信這種條文一討論下去你就會發現先把黨派給拿開的話這種條文我很難去想像說哪裡會找不到共識我很難去想像說林思明羅志強會覺得說這個條文是不應該定的"},{"start":2845.103,"end":2849.125,"text":"所以嘛所以我就講嘛所以這個政黨之間的攻防很合理啦而且非常正常啦但是過度的去把事實是非給顛倒然後呢大家在取悅自己的支持者這個其實就不必要了啦你像比如說我們今天這個第30條裡面的整個我們等一下來做一個大家審查的時候你就會發現了你如果說去違反了我們整個立法院的相關規定的時候嘿"},{"start":2871.677,"end":2900.72,"text":"紀律委員會裏面不用去調查、不用去審議、不用去做什麼處分,還又不用去做決定。這個也好奇怪,這個也好奇怪。所以有些不要看到民進黨提出的草案裏面,你就全部就是煩,就是黨。這個叫做過度攻防啦。今天的條文沒有涉及到什麼閹割立法委員,哪有。這些沒有制定的話,老百姓才會覺得怪,欸?好像立法委員是可以為非作歹的。我想啊,以上啊,大家啦,共同來做一個思考。"},{"start":2904.369,"end":2909.231,"text":"謝謝莊委員。接下來我們請范雲委員成立發言。我們請范雲委員時間3分鐘。"},{"start":2926.272,"end":2944.217,"text":"我想很遺憾要看到我們國民黨委員繼續用程序發言主導我們修立法委員行為法但是卻又不進入實質討論可是卻不斷地在外面用一些似是而非的說法在反駁在阻止我們民進黨團修立法委員行為法"},{"start":2946.638,"end":2968.19,"text":"那我想呢針對就是大家在外面的一些似是而非的說法在這邊做一個說明第一個有人宣稱說我們這樣做是不是跌床架屋那我想這個部分就要回到我們去年所修的就是MeToo的部分那事實上我們去年修完MeToo之後修了三法那針對校園的針對職場的還有針對性騷擾防治法把追溯期能夠拉長"},{"start":2975.093,"end":2995.427,"text":"但是修完三法之後我們會發現如果今天依照這個三法那事實上立法院還是對立委沒有任何仲裁懲罰的能力那有人講說那范雲去告陳雪生不是罰了八萬嗎代表現行法制面是足夠的我想在這邊跟大家說明"},{"start":2997.389,"end":3013.611,"text":"這個陳雪生賠的這八萬是因為我自己透過民事求償自己找律師耗時耗了多久耗時三年才能為自己討公道如果是依照性騷擾防治法因為現在兩個立委或者是立委跟記者依照性騷擾防治法"},{"start":3014.071,"end":3033.002,"text":"最多罰一萬那事實上對一個立委的財力來講的話其實完全沒有任何的懲戒力那我透過民事求償耗時三年的話為自己討公道可是呢我還是必須要在立法院常常遇到陳雪生如果今天是職場性別平等工作法的話其實雇主"},{"start":3033.302,"end":3049.326,"text":""},{"start":3049.746,"end":3067.242,"text":"而且我們上次有講過其實英國、美國、德國、法國他們國家也都有完整的法制可是仍然在立法院、國會裡面訂定內規就是要告訴大家這個是民意機關最高權力機構應該有最高的自律規範"},{"start":3068.063,"end":3086.92,"text":""},{"start":3087.06,"end":3087.2,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":3110.165,"end":3123.679,"text":"國民黨陳情申訴國民黨也不願意好好的調查那還有民眾黨的總召黃國昌說他不反對納入性騷但是其他司法官司法官說等是不是應該也納入"},{"start":3125.06,"end":3147.667,"text":"我們的周萬蘭秘書長已經在黃國昌巡達的時候當場回應,針對司法案件關說等在現行的立法委員行為法17條已規定,一、三十條也有相關的規定,法規早已經規定。如果黃國昌總召這麼重視司法關說,希望將相關行為納入更嚴,可是卻完全沒有提出自己的修正草案版本。"},{"start":3148.307,"end":3172.792,"text":"這是不是一種打假球的行為,掩飾自己,配合傅坤祺總召,成為附隨組織呢?如果黃榮委員讓我們進入條文的時候提出修正動議,我尊重,我們可以一一來討論,有共識的。至少他公開講,就是他支持性騷、性侵、性別歧視都放進來沒有問題。那最後呢,我也呼籲國民黨的委員沒有針對性。"},{"start":3174.212,"end":3203.192,"text":"那立法院就是針對助理的調查有40%的人認為立法院性騷非常的嚴重這是2020年公布的那希望大家正視這個問題謝謝范議員的會議詢問這裡說明一下范議員你所詢問的立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案有關於性騷擾的部分我們有列入在今天的討論提案第一案請瞭解我們會討論好謝謝那接下來是由吳思耀委員進行程序發言請"},{"start":3208.154,"end":3227.018,"text":"謝謝主席我想還是要先很簡要的那個highlight一下今天要討論什麼今天要討論民進黨版的立法委員行為法Focus在MeToo的條款反性騷的條款國會能不能夠落實委員的自律與課則讓國會也跟上"},{"start":3231.019,"end":3250.801,"text":"全台灣我們修了《性平三法》,國會不應當是所有工作場域之外的例外之地。我們要求其他公署機關、公司企業乃至於學校都要依《性平三法》來進行MeToo條款的相關因應。那為什麼立法院自己不以身作則呢?"},{"start":3251.562,"end":3255.927,"text":"今天審查的第二個重點在議事規則。議事規則,民進黨的黨版是希望能夠強化我們秘密會議所有的保密的行為以及防止洩密的行為。如果有不保密又洩密的立委,他應當有所責任可以克責。所以今天的重點在這裡。"},{"start":3273.064,"end":3282.677,"text":"所以今天的條文有幾個呢?Total如果以民進黨版的條文兩個法只有5個條文那如果加入委員個別提案賴瑞隆委員他的11個條文賴瑞隆委員是10個條文加上范雲委員的"},{"start":3290.146,"end":3291.007,"text":"此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外。"},{"start":3310.405,"end":3320.158,"text":"那我們來看看我們國會司法法制委員會針對國會改革相關的法案。職權行使法我們4月1號、4月3號、4月15號、4月18號開了4天,但是沒有討論任何一個條文。"},{"start":3326.827,"end":3353.652,"text":"直接國民黨黨版坐直達車快速通關打包協商所以花了四天的時間沒有討論半個具體的條文直接將國民黨版的職權行使法交付協商民進黨版的職權行使法迄今在司法法制委員會沒有進入任何一個條文的討論因為被阻礙了逐條討論"},{"start":3355.066,"end":3377.13,"text":"而在上週五的院會,國民黨再一次在院會用多數拒絕了民進黨版的職權行使法,一併交付協商。所以呢,國民黨版的職權行使法花了四天的時間,沒有討論任何逐條條文,直接交付協商。而民進黨版的職權行使法想要在這裡逐條討論,到現在還是沒有辦法進行討論。"},{"start":3380.791,"end":3385.752,"text":"厲（三）委員范雲等18人擬具〈立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案案。〈立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案案。〉"},{"start":3407.233,"end":3410.534,"text":"這是我們給國人的問政品質嗎?這是國會在委員會中心主義被踐踏至此,沒有半個條文可以被逐條嚴肅的討論。好,我補充一下,謝謝讓我們在周委員主持下,立法院的組織法確實有三個條文是逐條討論通過的。"},{"start":3430.763,"end":3437.708,"text":"除此之外,沒有半個條文在我們所在的司法法制委員會被逐條討論過。Never!這是什麼國會?沒有任何一個委員會不能審條文。沒有任何一個政黨要懼怕條文被比較、被檢視而閹割了、沒收了條文被逐條審查的機會。所以連同今天我們花了國人"},{"start":3460.906,"end":3474.927,"text":"將近15天的時間在這裡討論國會改革方案委員會是不是又如同過去沒有辦法被逐條進入討論國人都等著看"},{"start":3475.848,"end":3491.262,"text":"所以國民黨不要害怕今天民進黨版只有五個條文連同范雲跟賴瑞隆委員的版本加起來不過16個條文時間在今天一整天絕對可以充分的討論只要我們能夠進入逐條,徵典非常的明確。"},{"start":3493.624,"end":3519.287,"text":"保密條款如此而已還有賴瑞隆委員的是不是要擴大利益迴避就這麼簡單一點都不複雜不要害怕直球對決不要害怕上場打球不要害怕不要丟包民進黨的法案就只有16個條文而且如剛剛林思敏委員說的要討論什麼都很清楚了那幹嘛還需要公聽會呢"},{"start":3520.948,"end":3538.458,"text":"對不對?整點非常的清楚所以今天我們是不是再一次給國人一個最糟的負面示範司法法制委員會逐條不討論就成為國會惡例要再一次重蹈覆轍嗎?國人等著看就請大家能夠進入逐條"},{"start":3539.919,"end":3552.284,"text":"程序上我會尊重剛剛各位的意見。今天我們努力的讓我們的主條討論可以繼續進行。接下來有請翁委員、夏琳請。程序發言時間3分鐘。"},{"start":3564.94,"end":3565.04,"text":"范雲等16人擬具"},{"start":3584.271,"end":3609.12,"text":"厲法律是參考公職人員的利益衝突迴避法以及公務員的服務法等等相關規定可是事實上它的範圍是擴大的而且擴大的範圍基本上是值得大家一起關注和討論這包含就是立法委員的助理以及受立法委員指揮監督的助理然後相關的配偶子女等等的這些"},{"start":3610.981,"end":3629.002,"text":""},{"start":3630.697,"end":3630.717,"text":"閱讀者"},{"start":3649.65,"end":3675.657,"text":"觀眾謙虛"},{"start":3676.511,"end":3700.429,"text":"涉及到立法委員行為的部分剛剛這個范雲委員有提到像是性騷擾啊這個等等行為其實在其他的法律也已經有所規定了那就我們現在立法委員的這個行為法的部分其實也是可以處理如果說涉及到刑事責任的部分的話也是由委員自己可以直接向法院提起告訴的那麼有沒有必要跌床駕屋還在我們的"},{"start":3702.651,"end":3715.928,"text":"厲法還要去修立法委員行為法那如果說有必要的話我認為其實也應該要召開公聽會然後大家一起來討論這件事情那麼總之就是這個案子不是想像中的單純"},{"start":3718.029,"end":3741.749,"text":""},{"start":3741.849,"end":3742.129,"text":"閱讀委員賴瑞隆"},{"start":3771.591,"end":3797.532,"text":"主席、各位同仁、各位媒體女士先生。立法院再一次來上演頗分大戰。我想今天一個國會議員最基本的邏輯都講不清楚。如果今天規範刑法,如果刑責過輕,我們應該去修的是刑法,有國家的法律來約束。"},{"start":3799.181,"end":3827.33,"text":"而不是在這裡演猴戲把立法院當作一個秀場這一次的花蓮大地震大家看到執政黨有這麼多的立委明代到災區去耍猴戲把災區當作秀場我想今天這個是不是時空錯亂這是一個有尊嚴的國會但是我們真的很悲哀看到這些人天天在這裡演"},{"start":3828.427,"end":3843.82,"text":"突然,突然,執政黨的民代突然發現要尊重民意。我們實在覺得非常非常的好笑。過去2016年,在野黨提出了兩千多個案子為預算審查。"},{"start":3845.54,"end":3870.126,"text":"民進黨可以一次一包兩千多個案子做表決。什麼時候尊重過民意?天天都在踐踏民意。這個時候民意反撲了。他們只有百分之四十雙少數的政府,突然在跟我們強調民意。今天的民意就是告訴你,不要浪費大家的時間。一個執政黨,執政了八年以後竟然對自己完全沒有信心。"},{"start":3871.434,"end":3896.652,"text":"看看現在要修的什麼二等卿還有多少助理秘書通通要納入綠色恐怖的範疇這個國家還有自由嗎?連國會議員出門都要跟民進黨政府來報備要讓民進黨的行政權來監督立法權這個真的是荒天下之大吉的大笑話還給用行政權來監督國會立法權"},{"start":3900.967,"end":3908.985,"text":"我想執政黨的立委要把自己閹割,我們完全沒有意見,但是不要踐踏在野黨。"},{"start":3910.151,"end":3934.496,"text":"今天最基本的一個國會的尊嚴在這裡蕩然無存這種會還要開應該你們要去修刑法不管是洩密也好不管是各種不當行為也好你們都可以加重其刑而不是在這裡下西下井自己演這些猴戲來強迫大家來看真的是丟人現眼這就是今天的民進黨"},{"start":3938.978,"end":3963.754,"text":"謝謝副總召的指教其實我看聽了一下各位委員的程序發言跟會議詢問像剛剛副總召所提的就是賴瑞隆版的立法委員行為法當中的第二條那是關於立從法的部分還有第26條那是紀律委員會關於迴避的問題那其實是不是我可以跟委員建議一下因為大家的程序內容的發言都是我們主條討論的內容要不要我們就進入主條對不起好那請柯總召"},{"start":3965.009,"end":3965.169,"text":"請不要走不要講電話"},{"start":3976.738,"end":4001.678,"text":"為什麼竟然會講法律這個 法定下的大忌啊 根本不懂啊 說這個在這有破分 這有相關的刑法 刑法當然有啊這是另外一些對於這個法最主要是什麼 最主要是關係人以及利益衝突人的範圍要確定 然後要加強利益衝突的規範 以及讓秘密會議等 所以我"},{"start":4002.759,"end":4009.873,"text":"問題不要知道,知道嗎?現在大庭統一解釋,我希望歐小英能夠在場。"},{"start":4011.206,"end":4036.706,"text":"我們依法論法都已經解釋立法委員是屬於實質影響力還是法定時間說,已經解釋為實質影響力。當實質影響力和共同權利術衝突扣在一起的時候,就過程作為刑法,它會制定條例。現在已經法規非常嚴格了,所以要把這個法規弄清楚。"},{"start":4037.728,"end":4056.145,"text":"你懂得什麼叫刑法嗎?你懂得什麼叫大法律解釋嗎?實質影響力嗎?所以現在法律是這樣規範,當然我們在這方面要規範什麼叫關係人。關係人到底是哪些?利害衝突人是哪些?這要然後呢?要加強法治化。各位不要忘記,"},{"start":4058.669,"end":4082.284,"text":"一月十五號黃鴻章跳出來說要國會改革,第一個講什麼?要他第四點講什麼?加強利害衝突的規範,就是如此嘛。實在是加強利害衝突的規範,整個法已經到這個程度的時候,你完全不懂法律,然後不知道自己在講什麼。問要求說,郭文綺最後還會講到刑法。我跟你講齁,"},{"start":4083.806,"end":4092.936,"text":"哇 那個我跟妳很清楚喔徒裕他人是5到15年了所以大家很小心那今天我們要把這個規範規範清楚因為所謂的開公認會"},{"start":4096.961,"end":4114.099,"text":"這個法坦白講很簡單,所有人在開公路也可以,從來沒有說不做可能不開公路可以。他們今天就要反對這個法能夠做審查嘛,因為很多判例不分其利益衝突的部分。所以司法長是心路人皆知嘛。民進黨,"},{"start":4115.5,"end":4137.994,"text":"整個國會改革的重要的是職業行使法。你們那個職業行使法只有一天就強納出委員會,回遷亂政。整個民主破壞,這才是最要命的事情。整個臺灣民主已經走向香港化的時候,你們連這種一來行為法,一直規則都想擋。我一直覺得你那傻笑沒有用,常常擋車嘛。整個它民主潮流違反的。"},{"start":4139.554,"end":4147.699,"text":"閱聽民意會很鋪的,你們會心好,好不好。你不要以為你要紅瘡加起來可以轉動臺灣,控制臺灣,沒有那回事情。"},{"start":4167.418,"end":4167.718,"text":"范雲等18人擬具"},{"start":4189.318,"end":4206.297,"text":"我們這個國民黨的國會改革法案的這個流程其實我在最早是3月21號本來我們就是要排逐條審查但是因為柯總召還有其他人有跟我提議說這樣子不夠嚴謹"},{"start":4207.879,"end":4223.546,"text":"因為本來國民黨的想法是直接就排除了審查但是各位有跟我說不夠嚴謹那希望我們開公聽會但是因為公聽會必須在五天前就要排定了那時候跟我講的時候時間已經不夠所以當時我們第一次是開了一個3月11號開了一個專報那4月3號我又開了我記得是4月3號"},{"start":4232.369,"end":4252.367,"text":"當時又開了一場公聽會然後開完公聽會之後本來那一天也原本預計是下午就要直接要來逐條審查可是呢因為當天早上有地震那當時柯總召也沒有來嘛我印象中那我覺得有一些我也沒有來"},{"start":4253.82,"end":4281.141,"text":"然後我也要考量到每一個委員的權益所以當時就是把下午的會議我們就沒有繼續開了嘛然後當天又有提到說開一場公聽會不夠所以那個中召委他在各州4月10號跟4月11號又有開過兩場公聽會那我也是因為想說下個禮拜已經有開兩場公聽會了那這樣子的話是不是我就不要"},{"start":4281.681,"end":4298.524,"text":""},{"start":4299.465,"end":4313.154,"text":"因為中召委出國我代理他那我也跟中召委保證說我不會幹突襲的事情我不會4月8號我就給你排逐條審查所以我那一天還排去刑事局參訪"},{"start":4314.895,"end":4332.42,"text":"我跟各位報告你們這樣一路看下來我聽了大家的想法我開了一場公聽會一場專報然後我自己召開一場公聽會我也讓民進黨有時間開了兩場公聽會總共是三場公聽會而且我代理召委那一天"},{"start":4333.18,"end":4361.1,"text":"adequ.4月8號我也不突襲我就排了一個去刑事局參訪這個是整個的過程所以我想說我這提出來另外條文不討論不是特例我覺得以前民進黨之前很多都不討論那如果大家忘了大家忘了沒關係我再找各位以前的例子來給大家看找資料看條文我很行所以我可以找給大家看"},{"start":4361.94,"end":4382.422,"text":"另外就是最後我講一個有關這個去中國什麼報備這個我個人是覺得我們要考量的一個點不是說不行而是憲法第十條人民有遷徙的自由那我們今天對於自由去限制是法律保留是沒有問題但是呢"},{"start":4383.163,"end":4410.537,"text":"但是呢我覺得任何東西他要考量到你的手段的正當性以及比例原則那比例原則第一個要討論的就是你是不是有達成目的那你有沒有其他能夠更輕微的手段可以達成那我現在跟各位報告如果你今天總覺得說去大陸就要洩密就要幹什麼現在的通訊軟體不是不能做到你可以約在第三國不是不能做到所以我們不是不能提這個法案啦"},{"start":4411.317,"end":4433.959,"text":"而是說你提出來之前你的論述你的講法是不是更周全會比較好一點讓大家能夠幸福一點好謝謝各位好謝謝我們吳釗偉的程序發言接下來有省委員博洋提出會議詢問請好一樣然後再來有我們另有羅委員的程序發言還有我們柯總召的程序"},{"start":4437.475,"end":4452.433,"text":"好,謝謝沈伯陽會議詢問。那很感謝剛剛至少這一個我覺得以程序來講吳宗憲、趙偉用了很好的一個例子讓我們知道什麼叫做程序發言。至少我們在過往的一個程序當中至少做一些論辯。"},{"start":4453.414,"end":4470.872,"text":"但我這邊提出幾點第一個就是應該並不是吳宗憲召委讓我們開了兩場公聽會是因為那一周本來就是宗家兵召委所以這個應該不是你讓不讓的問題是宗家兵召委願意要去召開這一個公聽會這是第一個第二個就是我們對於整個會議的進行最大的問題是"},{"start":4471.493,"end":4489.241,"text":""},{"start":4489.761,"end":4518.428,"text":"雖然不管如何但我覺得剛剛至少是一個很成熟的一個程序討論的一個發言但我必須要講我是強烈的建議以後只要是傅坤祺委員的發言或黃國昌委員的發言是不是直接請他的助理來發言我覺得可能會比較快為什麼剛剛講了三分鐘完全沒有講到任何相關的法律論述那是不是如果助理能夠提供資料的話直接助理來講我覺得真的是比較妥當一點那不然的話每次都這樣在浪費時間剛剛傅坤祺委員唯一提到的是什麼"},{"start":4519.068,"end":4538.521,"text":"為什麼不使用刑法規定?這個規定講得還不錯。的確這個跟刑法可以有關係,不是嗎?那我就告訴大家,對於附中,或者見到中國的黨政軍,必須要申報。申報不實之後的法律規定,我們有沒有提出來?有啊,就是在下我提出來的啊。結果呢?你們怎麼做?"},{"start":4539.281,"end":4560.476,"text":"你們把他在程序委員會先做封殺第一次啊,然後再來這種委員會再退回程序委員會,你剛剛不是說要用刑法來規定嗎?結果你把案子退回程序委員會,那這樣是要做什麼?自我矛盾嘛。為什麼會有這種自我矛盾呢?因為你根本就不懂。自己不懂法律沒有什麼關係,助理應該都會提供給你相關的資料。"},{"start":4561.076,"end":4589.934,"text":"結果上來就只會做一些政治操作我覺得是非常不可取的事情再來還說什麼行政權會監督我在這邊告訴大家你立法委員要出國要不要辦護照辦護照要不要遇到外交部遇到外交部之後請問你要不要說外交部在審查你要不要講說是行政在干預立法請問立法委員要不要繳稅繳稅之後遇到國稅局要不要說行政在干預立法不要把立法委員的職權的行使跟立法委員作為一般人所做的事情混為一談"},{"start":4590.934,"end":4609.975,"text":"這跟司法院院長以後如果去中國如果也要審查他照樣也要收到審查難道我們會說這個審查是干預司法嗎?更不要講說律法委員握有內政部入委會這些的預算你以為這些人在審查的時候會橫趕審查嗎?這根本就不是審查過分的問題而是審查不足的問題嘛"},{"start":4611.076,"end":4625.913,"text":"那最後再講一下,如果今天一直要講說要開公聽或說影響多少人,我就問提出來的這些花蓮有關有的沒的條例預算那麼高,為什麼要直接就進覆二讀了,為什麼不在委員會做實質討論,它影響的人數有多少。所以我翻譯到這邊,謝謝。"},{"start":4628.788,"end":4640.373,"text":"謝謝沈委員的會詢,那本席會努力的在今天進入到主條討論,讓我們會議可以繼續進行到有效率的、有意義的討論。接下來是那個羅委員的程序案,他要先登記。羅志強委員。"},{"start":4651.769,"end":4674.154,"text":"民進黨別緊張啦說得頭頭是道我就是用你的魔法對付你啊就這麼簡單啊為什麼國會改革的提案要開公聽會其他的提案大家沒有講到公聽會的問題很簡單啊那不是羅志強標準嘛如果我今天主動提這個標準我不合理嘛我對不起大家嘛不是嗎"},{"start":4675.586,"end":4693.832,"text":"民進黨你摸摸良心我們吳宗憲早也在排審國民黨版的國會改革法案立法院的職權行使法我想請問一下你民進黨有沒有說社會溝通不夠公聽會多開一點有沒有有就閉嘴啦我是用你的魔法對付你啦今天講的所有東西不要緊張齁不要緊張不要緊張時間暫停"},{"start":4705.555,"end":4710.019,"text":"時間暫停時間沒暫停喔謝謝喔用你的母法對付你啦就這麼簡單啦當初我們的國民黨版的國會改革法案對不對要專報就專報啦請問現在有專報嗎我要的就是一個公平對等啦"},{"start":4736.581,"end":4744.048,"text":"沒有公聽會不用玩啦,就這麼簡單啦,有什麼好弄的,都你民進黨標準嘛,我照民進黨標準錯了嗎?我那走不對嗎?我這跟柯總統走錯了嗎?都你們的標準啊,不是嗎?今天你跟我講說立法委員執行新司法對不對?蛤?"},{"start":4757.062,"end":4769.147,"text":"你要講立法委員的行為法對不對很好阿非常好阿就按照你們標準去辦個公聽會到底有什麼了不起嚴重阿三場而已啦一場專報而已啦辦完之後再來討論嘛阿為什麼不辦阿為什麼遇到今天是你們的就你們對遇到我們比照辦理也錯不比照辦理也錯阿怎麼都錯"},{"start":4785.1,"end":4811.283,"text":"而預算包裹兩千案一次表決通過都是你們對,不用討論了。你多數時候你怎麼對待在野少數啊?有像今天還是我們吳宗憲召委的時候還花了一整天的時間,大家討論嗎?有嗎?什麼逐條討論?連大體討論?連程序發言都不給你啊?一開會五分鐘停止討論表決集在散會結束大家回家去了啊?"},{"start":4812.523,"end":4830.227,"text":"但現在委主司法及法制委員會吳宗憲召委主持的時候有這樣嗎?有這樣嗎?要的沒有多啦!就是一個公平對待而已啦!憑什麼民進黨做可以我們做不可以?不民主就是你們不民主你們開的利!不是嗎?就這麼簡單啊!還是一樣的句話嘛!"},{"start":4837.369,"end":4866.216,"text":"那你今天說立法委員喔不錯啦配偶共同生活親屬二親人以內親屬什麼受託人公費助理指揮監督的助理然後這些所有荒蕩到所有的人碰到的所謂的什麼監察人啊經理人啊董事啊然後再加上這些人的配偶跟未成年子女你乾脆把做一個政務人員行為法好了好不好通通抓進來啊去哪裡都報備啊要不要"},{"start":4868.544,"end":4871.246,"text":"三）委員范雲等18人擬具:「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4879.296,"end":4898.815,"text":"憲法的一些保障沒有關係嘛,你們覺得不重要我也沒有反對啦,那就開個公聽會有什麼了不起?照民進黨標準開個公聽會有什麼了不起?開完以後,社會大家都知道,比方一個啊,你們國會改革版本,官員說謊無罪就是你們的重點賣點啊,拿出來比方一個啊。"},{"start":4899.475,"end":4903.521,"text":"三場公聽會高大為什麼官員說謊無罪呢?為什麼官員說謊不用罰呢?為什麼以前的民進黨說官員說謊要罰,現在民進黨說官員說謊不用罰呢?我講你們不會聽嘛!公聽會開一開大家來比拋嘛!"},{"start":4915.219,"end":4916.48,"text":"用你的魔法對付你啦!"},{"start":4945.481,"end":4946.106,"text":"科委員、科總,請。"},{"start":4955.387,"end":4976.454,"text":"您若輸了,胡說八道,不輸會勝。少年人說話要這麼實在的。今天我們在講的是,共青會是由何而來?吳宗憲本來要排一場,所以我們一直要求他多排,但是他排一場以後下午就要開始,世界大會下午就要開始審。你說我沒有來,我一直打電話給你。"},{"start":4977.734,"end":5005.899,"text":"讓一發生地震,部分就跑了。而且坦白講,只有開一場太少,所以應該停下來,讓中央嘉賓委員會再開兩場公職會。公職會是我們開的,所以要講清楚道理。第二個,我們要談什麼?談整個審查程序裡面的問題。如果講委員長說,我們給你什麼,給你大禹討論了,你還不滿意。這個是,講話要修正一下,這個非常嚴重。"},{"start":5007.879,"end":5031.621,"text":"議員法院之前是啦,是嗎?是憲法所規定,六三條所規定,一一結一三條法律案,不是你給的。也不是分局給的,也不是國民黨給的,也不是黃國昌給的。議員法院之前是你在定義的啦。你說給就給,不給就不給。所以你這些話以後少講。和分局一樣都以後少講。這毫無憲法常識。就是我們今天重點是10月15號當天,"},{"start":5034.478,"end":5062.777,"text":"整個程序審查國民黨執行刑事法把民進黨的丟包。羅志祥委員會被丟包。中委員的、歐委員的版本會被丟包。那只審國民黨的版本。但是整個過程是沒有討論的。你們除了討論,這連壓過去嘛。但是情形當然很清楚。今天重點是這一個所在。你想說醫療要這樣標給你記就記了。違憲還是違憲啦。你不要自己歧路嘛。"},{"start":5063.798,"end":5090.273,"text":"這是很重要的一個關鍵。剛才吳宗憲委員也在講這個同樣的問題嘛。吳宗憲,是不是4月3號是不是我一直打電話給你,我要打一個問題,問題就你放棄了嘛。回答還是不用嗎?你待會要回答我,沒關係。好,所以這很清楚。我們今天要講司法,你是法律人。但是我今天你是法律人,我要告訴你一個事情。人們要遷徙自由是憲法的規定。但是呢,請先看憲法23條的比喻原則。"},{"start":5094.155,"end":5116.144,"text":"當防止防礙他人自由、避免緊急危害、維護社會秩序以及促進國家利益的時候,可以做限縮。當然這次有批言者,當然有法規範,就限縮嘛。不是說我台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、"},{"start":5119.445,"end":5138.417,"text":"所以你對憲法上面一個自由權的上面你根本沒有自由權的規範在第七條二、三條是比喻原則我再講一次防止妨礙他人自由避免緊急法案促進社會秩序增加公共利益的時候不可以先說先去看憲法好不好"},{"start":5142.434,"end":5166.093,"text":"好 謝謝柯總召幫忙說明我們的那個吳委員因為吳總召吳召偉他要先還是讓吳委員先講完再吳總召那就讓吳委員講完再請吳召偉再回應好不好好來那個請好 謝謝吳委員那時間程序發言時間3分鐘那接下來我們再請吳召偉做回應也是程序發言"},{"start":5167.382,"end":5192.244,"text":"這個要回應一下這個吳宗憲、昭偉您真的是學法律的嘛您說憲法保障人民的居住遷徙自由沒有錯第十條但是我們在修的立法委員行為法或是沈伯陽委員的大陸人民關係條例聯合人民關係條例沒有限制台灣人民的遷徙或旅行的自由"},{"start":5193.444,"end":5216.549,"text":"沒有人限制前往中國或是第三地任何的自由而是要在有涉密的人員在事前登載事後做報告所以沒有人在違反憲法您居然會把我們的兩岸人民關係條例要求對於涉密人員的出入境的事前登載"},{"start":5217.729,"end":5239.228,"text":"讓他無限上綱到我們在限縮人民的旅行自由遷徙自由我真的很好奇很訝異您是學法律的嗎然後呢我要花點時間再次來說明4月1號排審了職權行使法4月3號進行了職權行使法的公聽會"},{"start":5241.147,"end":5248.195,"text":"三月二十一號是國情報告的專案報告那時候是針對吳宗憲委員叫牌的哈總統到立院國情報告要不要專報要不要那個急問急答的專報"},{"start":5255.424,"end":5278.044,"text":"再來進入4月10號排了調查權聽證權的公聽會4月11號調查權聽證權的公聽會4月15號職權行使法跟刑法繼續審查但是就在4月15號的會議上國民黨強行的打包這兩個重要的法律直接不審查直接打包交付協商"},{"start":5278.965,"end":5283.086,"text":"時間來到4月18號職權行使法民進黨版的不給審查。4月22號組織法行為法議事規則也是干擾不給實質的審查。那天我們只審了組織法。再到4月25號組織法行為法議事規則也同樣不給審查。"},{"start":5300.578,"end":5317.683,"text":"今天來到5月6號我花了這些時間把我們這個會期討論國會改革的時程都做了一下說明我要說的是什麼我們已經浪費民脂民膏十多天了Four days整天的時間在司法法制委員會"},{"start":5319.522,"end":5342.413,"text":"就是國民黨想方設法的阻撓干擾干預破壞逐條審查的機會踐踏委員會中心主義只要是國民黨版就可以快速通關坐直達車打包協商只要是民進黨版"},{"start":5343.173,"end":5350.317,"text":"國民黨最害怕的民進黨版就被阻卻了審查還沒有辦法併案被丟包這是什麼國會從來沒有這樣的國會我也回應一下羅志強委員民主進步黨執政八年的國會多數裡頭程序委員會沒有擋過任何一個議案零次"},{"start":5372.182,"end":5379.371,"text":"沒有就是沒有。但是國民黨恢復國會多數的這個會期居然在城市委員會擋案了。"},{"start":5380.222,"end":5384.845,"text":"我也要說民進黨執政多數的時候並沒有沒收委員會逐條審查的權利沒有過去在討論你們國民黨非常害怕的促轉條例也好不當黨產得利條例也好甚至是年改法案也好在相關委員會內政委員會司法法制委員會民進黨都讓國民黨發言說好說滿"},{"start":5406.802,"end":5411.688,"text":"讓這樣的政治性、爭議性的法案透過討論跟社會對話沒有阻絕了委員會的討論沒有沒收逐條討論的機會沒有就是沒有"},{"start":5422.728,"end":5444.656,"text":"民進黨也沒有選擇性的在院會阻撓了其他法案並案協商的機會。從來沒有。但是國民黨上週五在立法院再一次拒絕了民進黨的職權行使法一起並案跟國民黨的職權行使法並案協商的機會。"},{"start":5446.296,"end":5471.876,"text":"從程序委員會的檔案從委員會的主條沒收審查到院會拒絕並案協商這都是民進黨多數的時期從來不會做的事因為這是閹割了程序正義這是沒收了國會的民主沒有就是沒有羅志強不要顛倒是非不要胡言亂語"},{"start":5474.028,"end":5496.469,"text":"回到今天的重題我們浪費了民脂民膏十多天的時間處理國會改革法案今天5月6號還要阻撓主條審查嗎?出來打球沒有這麼困難收起你的心魔不要害怕面對面我們比專業"},{"start":5498.226,"end":5524.069,"text":"我們比我們的法學素養,比我們對於國家安全的忠心信仰,一樣一樣來比,不要害怕,直接出來打球。謝謝吳委員,在那個吳昭偉說,我先跟吳委員跟委員會說明一下,在本席輪值召開的4月10號跟4月11號兩場公聽會的時候,那時候公聽會處理的不是只有立法院,"},{"start":5524.77,"end":5548.985,"text":""},{"start":5555.053,"end":5581.929,"text":"謝謝召委我這邊簡單的回應一下剛剛柯總召問我的問題報告柯總召4月3號那一天確實早上柯總召打電話給我就說他們希望說下午不要進入到直條審查因為有救災有什麼的需求所以有這個需要那所以說當天下午我取消我是綜合的考量到確實有委員需要趕回去救災或是確認家裡面的狀況"},{"start":5583.07,"end":5608.416,"text":"况且我知道各州中委員有排兩場公聽會所以我才當時就最後做了那樣子的決策否則當天其實早上有記者來訪問我我也說我們當天下午就是要進入逐條審查所以說我是一個綜合的考量而不是說像大家都有一些什麼很奇怪的一些陰謀論那第二個就是剛剛沈博安委員所提到的4月10號11號確實是"},{"start":5612.617,"end":5632.587,"text":"閱讀委員會中召委排的公聽會這什麼我已經講的是正確的但是我剛剛要說的是本來我4月3號下午可以硬幹就逐條審查我也可以在4月8號我代理召委那一天就硬幹逐條審查但是我都不願意這麼做因為我覺得我不喜歡做這種事情我覺得"},{"start":5633.857,"end":5633.977,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":5648.933,"end":5664.121,"text":""},{"start":5666.622,"end":5683.21,"text":"我來這裡我覺得很累,就是一定要幫大家上法律課啦,因為憲法不是這樣解釋的。我跟各位說,譬如說我們憲法言論自由,人民的言論自由並沒有新聞自由四個字嘛,但是所有的學者都認為言論自由就是包括在人民的言論自由範圍內。"},{"start":5687.372,"end":5709.349,"text":"人民有言論自由不代表你不能講話。你能講話就叫做言論自由,不是這樣。它是包括思想,包括你的所述的內容。所以所謂的遷徙自由不是說人民不可以走動,那個叫遷徙自由。法律如果可以用文字就解釋,那叫一個國小看得懂字的學生來解釋就可以。憲法它重要的是它的"},{"start":5710.129,"end":5732.384,"text":"這是中華民國根本大法,它重要的是原理原則。所以遷徙自由的意思是,你不可以加諸人民在遷徙上面的要求,除非他有法律明定。所以我們叫做法律保留。他今天犯法,我可以把他抓去關,因為法律保留。所以憲法不是這樣解釋,我跟各位報告,因為一直要來幫大家上法律課,我也很樂意啦,沒問題,可是"},{"start":5734.085,"end":5762.856,"text":"不能說喊著自己是專家憲法專家就來罵別人毀憲亂證就罵的東西是錯的因為這個社會上面念過憲法人非常多所以遷徙自由是加諸在遷徙上面的任何事情基本上要法律保留所以剛剛我一直講我說省保養廳的法案我不是說不行啦而是我們在討論法案的時候我們還要去思考剛剛柯總召講的憲法23條比例原則你的手段性目的性"},{"start":5763.336,"end":5788.251,"text":""},{"start":5789.226,"end":5812.822,"text":"在議法院進來以後,我是講說吳宗憲你是懷疑人,你這幾十名的共和國我非常尊敬你。但是從剛才的發言引來至於過去所有的在這個委員會裡面所有關於我們修法,有關於國會改革的修法,我們發現有一個叫吳宗憲的無奈。"},{"start":5814.517,"end":5832.053,"text":"人是不錯的啦,就想要依法行事啦,要奉行憲法,但是他有很多無奈啊。因為從一開始排的時候我就一直跟他講,我認為你應該不會忘記,政府國會改革要好好的審,那我要開公聽會,然後一條一條好好審。"},{"start":5833.632,"end":5860.774,"text":"他說永遠都是一句話,我知道啦,你去問副總裁講一下。這叫吳宗憲委員的無奈,但是他有這麼無奈還算本質不錯的人啦。本質不錯啦,但是沒有在高壓統治底下要行使抵抗權。要行使抵抗權,反抗。自由就是這樣爭取而來的。自由就是這樣爭取而來。有沒有,有一句話,陶柏川有個名言啦,經常聞,非常有名的陶柏川。"},{"start":5861.855,"end":5887.657,"text":"明明而死,不末而生。請你把他放在心裡。唐柏川當年唐柏川當建法委員彈劾在蔣介石時代彈劾誰?彈劾當年的行政院長易鴻鈞以及易鴻鈞同時是央行總裁。唐柏川就敢彈劾,蔣介石都低頭了。所以我們當任民意代表,你要了解你來當民意代表幹什麼呢?"},{"start":5889.059,"end":5904.033,"text":"民進黨代表不是只有藍綠而已,民進黨當立法委員這是一種志業,為國家追求公民正義。所以在這裡我要寄予吳宗憲委員,在整個過程中我一直拜託你,合適合適,公平公平的。"},{"start":5905.222,"end":5929.433,"text":"但是他有無奈,但是他也有做一個插邊球,說那我來做專案報告,這點我要感謝你。那你偷偷偷到後來4月3號了,要硬幹的時候,但是老天爺會發生大地震。我以為說是老天爺要救臺灣的民主人,下午就能夠停下來,但是後來還是一樣嘛。"},{"start":5930.353,"end":5958.01,"text":"因為會議去走了吧?你們等於會輸一票吧?所以,大家,你們不得不妥協啦。所以這個情形我們都很清楚。這個過程,我們要踐行民主。反正民主能夠這樣存到今天來,過去在六海裡面都可以認證的。但是今天整個翻轉了,整個變成了,所有的東西都沒收了。甚至連海安國議院長的草牙箱錢都被沒收。所以大家很..."},{"start":5959.191,"end":5983.462,"text":"我很謝謝大家看到這一刻,這是憲法時刻,憲政時刻。我們今天要講的就是說,公聽會也有開了。好,你要再開公聽會,處委會再開也無所謂。今天的條文都很簡單。至於這個憲法23條,我剛才一再的講就防止妨礙他人自由,避免群職、維持社會秩序,增進公共利益。這當然是法律保留嘛。"},{"start":5984.102,"end":5987.886,"text":"翁曉筠上次在問我說我的憲法常識在哪裡?憲法總共175條,甚至說條文12條。這很簡單,大家看一看都很簡單。"},{"start":5993.359,"end":6017.637,"text":"要來當立法委員必須要憲法及公法的嘗試,不是只有法律嘗試。法律當然是,法律是教會,我們立法委員可以做法律抽象性的修改,可以做修改。所以但是要維持在一個憲法的看法底下。所以剛才點名你說,你說文明有權與自由,我說不對,好不要再有憲法。自由權的,自由權第七條。"},{"start":6018.718,"end":6039.206,"text":"後面23條還有規範。所以我今天在這地方只呼籲大家共同來遵守憲法,維護憲法。不是把憲法也破壞掉,整個體制破壞掉,民主也沒收,憲法也沒收,那臺灣就倒了。但是這個行為一直在發生,而且會越來越嚴重,控制在兩個人手上。"},{"start":6040.563,"end":6066.331,"text":"皓文綺跟馮國昌他為什麼這樣我有空來寫演出讓大家了解清楚一下所以今天我們很重要像今天這個行為法、意識規則這完全沒有政治性啊這可以經得很討厭假如你們說這個條文不好忽然不夠多錢保留學長或是提修那個修正案都無所謂這個是要了解"},{"start":6067.677,"end":6090.624,"text":"我剛才在講,婚期回來,要講就是說,去年大法庭統一解釋,有關林育詩那個案子,用實質影響力。所以實質影響力就是說你有這個行為,然後扣除利益衝突,就是當初的條例。推理至少5年到15年。現在大家都要很小心,當立委都要很小心,當縣市首長都要很小心。"},{"start":6091.744,"end":6108.771,"text":"所以今天我在這裡,大家要有法律上的觀念。行法本來就有啊,通過這條也有啊。但是韓社範圍是怎麼樣?定義的人是哪些人?這當然必須經過重新的定義嘛。大家請看看今天的法是在講什麼?"},{"start":6109.511,"end":6131.307,"text":"不要只有供給,尤其最後我要寄予這個羅志祥委員,你討論的反應很快,口才會壞,不可以往歪去啦,不可以往歪去。我們講往正途走,你後面會有很大的前途,往歪去啦,你會撞牆,那婚期才會掉在懸崖裡面,你不要被犧牲掉。"},{"start":6133.736,"end":6143.031,"text":"好,謝謝我們柯總召。那麼我程序發言最後一位莊瑞雄委員發言完,主席這邊就要做程序上的處理。好,請莊委員程序發言三分鐘。"},{"start":6146.244,"end":6151.408,"text":"謝謝昭偉我們在場的委員我剛聽了我們吳宗憲昭偉的一席話我是被他給嚇死了他一直他說海上在本委員會裡面要教大家憲法誰的話都可以聽那這個憲法就是吳宗憲的憲法就不能聽了我們在整個憲法在整個第二章裡面第七條到21條規範的就是人民的權利跟義務"},{"start":6174.187,"end":6178.008,"text":"吳宗憲唸的憲法只有唸到憲法第22條,是啊,第七條到21條,這一些權力全部都接受到憲法的一個保護,但是你那個眼睛看到第23條的時候,你就故意把它給閉起來了。法律保留非常重要,但是我們今天我們在討論的是什麼?我們整個立法委員的行為法裡面,你去把它看看,"},{"start":6199.795,"end":6226.117,"text":"各位我再請教吳宗憲委員吳宗憲召委我們真的憲法會去保障你跑到中國大陸去泄密的自由嗎?會嗎?你摸摸著良心看想想看看這些條文這些條文是在講說我們立法委員如果你去接觸到這一些國家的一個機密你認為說我有遷徙的自由我就是要飛到中國大陸去"},{"start":6227.538,"end":6227.738,"text":"憲法不會去保障"},{"start":6246.803,"end":6247.163,"text":"mentioned."},{"start":6247.163,"end":6270.229,"text":"人民去接觸到國家機密以後﹖跑到中國大陸去洩密﹖那到底這個射程到底要多遠﹖本席的看法是很一致﹖射程跟範圍這一些都可以再討論﹖但是在討論這個過程裡面你為了阻擋這個法律的一個討論然後搬出憲法說人民有遷徙的自由人民當然有遷徙的自由人民當然有言論的一個自由"},{"start":6271.429,"end":6285.795,"text":"人民尤其是國會議員你說在國會要限制一個來立一個法律到底是不是要不要限制他不得去洩密你認為說搬出憲法說不可以做這樣的一個立法案做出這樣的一個立法那可以來討論啊可以討論啊以上啊我是覺得在國會裡面在討論啊不管是做任何的一個議事攻防啊還是要有一定的一個限度啦政黨之間的一個一個競爭或者說要鬥爭"},{"start":6301.301,"end":6301.321,"text":"閱讀委員會"},{"start":6311.769,"end":6312.309,"text":"主席"},{"start":6335.66,"end":6356.889,"text":"好,那就請翁委員三分鐘程序發言。主席,今天上午,"},{"start":6360.179,"end":6361.72,"text":"我們就不處理程序發言了。主席在這邊就做個說明。"},{"start":6378.578,"end":6401.713,"text":"那主席在這邊跟委員會做個說明那今日的議程我們有兩個討論提案第一提案一是來進行包括民進黨黨團擬具立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文的修正草案那條文的內容就是針對性騷擾防治以及包括紀律的處分"},{"start":6402.774,"end":6417.868,"text":"第二（版本是賴瑞隆委員所提的立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案,其中包含了利益迴避的規定,包含了秘密會議的落實,以及包含了利益衝突等人的認定跟定義。"},{"start":6419.069,"end":6433.845,"text":"第三個版本是范雲委員提的《立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案》,內容就是關於對性騷相關規定。這是我們討論提案第一案。因為剛剛委員的很多發言,"},{"start":6436.98,"end":6458.744,"text":"支持討論的大概就是針對在這些內容那要求另外在擇期召開公聽會的其實不是針對這些內容討論我還是要做個說明那討論提案第二案呢還是要強調我們今天討論提案第二案剛剛主席一開始就宣告我們今天只處理民進黨黨團擬具的立法院議事規則第47條48條及第52條條文修正草案"},{"start":6464.008,"end":6485.808,"text":"那麼另外賴委員的部分剛剛主席在一開始宣告就是說今天並沒有處理到賴委員的提案只處理民進黨團的提案那民進黨團的議事規則提案內容當中當然是包括了秘密會議的相關規定主要就在這裡還有參與秘密會議的人是否有涉密人員要附中考察的部分"},{"start":6486.408,"end":6512.621,"text":"那由於關於剛剛的審議法院當中對這個部分多有討論但是主席在這邊要跟委員報告之前這兩天有媒體討論到關心到委員在關心有關於賴瑞隆版的議事規則有關於國事論壇的問題那麼因為今天我們的討論案第二案主席宣告部分已經沒有包含賴委員的提案了所以我們今天的會議規則主要在處理"},{"start":6514.122,"end":6514.422,"text":"mentioned."},{"start":6514.422,"end":6539.664,"text":"秘密會議的涉密人員到依據兩案條例到港澳地區中國大陸地區是否要進行管制那我在這裡也跟大家做一個宣告我們手上是不是請那個會議人員我發給大家這邊有一份監察院所提出的委員職員員工進入大陸地區之申請標準作業程序那這是監察院在109年所訂定的"},{"start":6541.505,"end":6563.325,"text":"那這當中對於監察院所屬的委員、職員及員工進入大陸地區應遵行的申請和辦理的請假手續包括徵務人員涉及國安機密利益或國家安全利益或機密人員還有檢認11職等以上的官員涉及國家安全利益跟機密還有檢會時任的這個部分我待會"},{"start":6563.865,"end":6586.22,"text":""},{"start":6586.68,"end":6605.789,"text":"到涉密人員到其他地區是否要進行在秘密會議當中是在會議議事規則或是在立法委員行為法當中去規範那還是要在這裡跟社會做個說明我們今天要討論的立法委員行為法跟立法院議事規則處理的是性騷處理的是利益衝突迴避"},{"start":6606.329,"end":6608.69,"text":"閱讀委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具〈立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":6633.7,"end":6662.156,"text":"提案一,三會動議,針對本日會議五月六日議程,建請依立法院一事規則第二十六條第五十七條規定,提議三會是否有當進行公決。提案人委員林思明、沃富昆齊、翁曉琳、吳宗憲、羅志強、謝龍介,宣讀完畢。好,那麼請問有異議?有異議齁,那現在進行表決。等一下等一下,我們先把程序講清楚。我們今天是"},{"start":6663.673,"end":6670.196,"text":"禮拜一還有禮拜三如果個別一次會嗎?那我們今天我們是處理有關於之間審查的部分。"},{"start":6686.018,"end":6711.138,"text":"我跟你們講,我們現在要表決三位,你一定會上會。雖然上會前我們有意見,我們對這三位的意見可以處理吧。來。今天是審查什麼?行為法嗎?那我們還有議事會長還沒處理嗎?好。那明天,禮拜三我們繼續開會嘛。禮拜三再繼續開會。"},{"start":6713.24,"end":6741.525,"text":"禮拜我們來審查這個有關於的議事規則兩條而已兩條而已好謝謝啦因為有那個柯總召提醒本席那也本席也跟委員報告那麼本週的議程我們是一天一次會所以呢本週有三次會週一一次會週三一次會還有週四一次會那跟委員報告本來週三安排的是立法院職權行司法的繼續審查"},{"start":6742.728,"end":6762.067,"text":"那麼如果說今天這個待會的動議處理完,如果今天的會議就不能繼續來處理立法院立法委員行為法跟立法院議事規則的話,那麼主席這邊也會接受大家的意見,在後續週三或週四議程。主席啊,海岸潛在你,你怎麼去調整沒有關係好不好。"},{"start":6763.786,"end":6766.829,"text":"禮拜三我們還是立法院職權刑事法。那現在呢我們就開始。"},{"start":6782.455,"end":6808.003,"text":"啊,反正一、三、四各一次會嘛。禮拜三還會出現的,好不好。問題委員?那個麥克風全部要拆掉。你乾脆全部要摸收,你要摸收什麼你就要開清單嘛。那你乾脆繳結一宗科技人民部來參加委會嘛,好不好。你要摸收什麼反正你先摸好無邊嘛,沒關係。摸收麥克風有什麼用?你說摸收人心嗎?"},{"start":6810.275,"end":6827.399,"text":"因為今天的會議程序還算平和,所以主席想說維持平和的方式來處理。那因為剛剛有異議,所以我們現在進行表決,採用舉手表決。表決前先清點在場出席委員人數。"},{"start":6837.472,"end":6850.218,"text":"在場出席委員11人不管主席。現在開始表決。贊成者請舉手。贊成者6位請放下。反對者請舉手。反對者5位請放下。"},{"start":6861.667,"end":6876.898,"text":"表決結果,在場出席委員11人,不函主席贊成者6人,反對者5人,三位動議贊成者多數,通過。好,本市會議進行到此,討論事項所列議案,軍令定期進行法律。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}