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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十二條及第六十一條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法第五十六條條文修正草案」案。七、審查委員李坤城等20人擬具「地方制度法第七十八條條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條及第五十六條條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「地方制度法第八十三條之三條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「地方制度法部分條文修正草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.177218750000002,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.51034375,"end":12.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.923468750000001,"end":13.851593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":14.712218750000002,"end":15.69096875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":17.32784375,"end":17.918468750000002,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.10409375,"end":22.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.76159375,"end":42.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.16784375,"end":45.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.812843750000006,"end":47.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.07409375,"end":59.835968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.257843750000006,"end":61.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.67096875,"end":63.649718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.18971875,"end":65.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.72534375000001,"end":66.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.34534375,"end":70.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.02409375,"end":73.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.97721875,"end":79.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.01846875000001,"end":101.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.34409375000001,"end":107.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":107.81159375,"end":111.77721875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":111.87846875000001,"end":153.96471875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.46721875,"end":124.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.28159375,"end":165.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.28784375,"end":178.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.83846875,"end":186.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":186.78659375,"end":192.65909375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.19534375,"end":191.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.55346875,"end":206.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":193.72221875000002,"end":202.27784375000002,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":205.38284375,"end":208.87596875000003,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.38221875000002,"end":212.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":211.01909375000002,"end":213.51659375000003,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.89221875,"end":213.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":213.60096875000002,"end":214.00596875000002,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.00596875000002,"end":224.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":214.03971875000002,"end":214.27596875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":223.74284375000002,"end":225.05909375000002,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.05909375000002,"end":242.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":234.44159375,"end":234.50909375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.60471875000002,"end":244.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.35971875,"end":252.70034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.17284375000003,"end":261.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":261.40784375000004,"end":266.50409375000004,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.60534375000003,"end":305.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":269.13659375000003,"end":271.00971875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":307.20659375,"end":309.36659375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.65346875,"end":310.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.66159375,"end":318.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":311.91471875,"end":312.58971875000003,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":313.02846875,"end":313.68659375000004,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.40721875,"end":323.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":322.10721875,"end":325.33034375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.68909375000004,"end":329.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":330.29159375,"end":332.90721875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.65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部長我拜託你兩件事情第一個希望你尊重委員會不管國民黨民進黨民眾黨各位委員未來有一些不是密件的東西不是秘密的東西只是民進黨不能說的秘密可不可以不要列密件"},{"start":390.587,"end":411.917,"text":"感謝委員的提供這些方面的見解我還是跟委員報告這個所謂列密件或是機密或是極機密的部分按照行政法規範我們是按照台灣跟黑熊學院辦理民防訓練這是秘密密件嗎我想你把兩件事情合在一起講我都非常清楚跟委員表達如果沒有按照預算法規定的話不符合就是不符合"},{"start":412.997,"end":431.645,"text":"那為什麼要發函?那這件事情是不是有應該要懲處?兩個時間點不一樣您先看一下兩個時間點不一樣哪個時間點?請部長您剛講的這個11月以前的發函的部分在報告裡面有發函嘛對不對?有發函它有寫例如但是表示這件事情沒有發生我剛剛跟部長解釋啦你們的建議就是一道聖旨啊"},{"start":432.105,"end":457.487,"text":"地方政府能不接受嗎而且我跟你講你這樣還甩鍋給地方政府未來地方政府使用黑熊學院撞過台灣的時候你就說那是地方政府他們要用的啊跟我中央無關啊我只是建議啊可是如果不照內政部警政署的建議那未來升官是不是就有問題這樣不會有利益衝突私相收受圖利特定民間團體的問題嗎不符合法規規定的我們一定不會做報告委員好"},{"start":459.642,"end":486.52,"text":"希望部長兩件事情要跟你拜託第一個未來不是密件的請你尊重我們內政委員會審查預算我們做好立法委員職權的部分不要再列密件第二個相關到底是誰第一個要求要把這兩個要推薦這兩個單位的資料可不可以提供給本委會內政委員會所有委員因為我相信連國民黨民眾民進黨的委員都不知道這些事情"},{"start":487.721,"end":506.426,"text":"然後第三個到底在秘密會議的時候警政署長消防署長在11月份就已經發函給地方政府這些資料原本在秘密會議就要提供給本委員的時候到底是誰要求說兩位署長不能提供這樣的資料也請部長幫我們查一下可以嗎"},{"start":507.446,"end":527.771,"text":"謝謝委員我可以馬上就跟你講按照我們的行政院在做密件的規範我們是按照密件規範來執行的那我們也同意在未來的內政委員會做專案報告的時候把沒有涉及到機密的部分呢盡量公開讓委員了解這個在上一次我們在做協商的時候已經非常清楚跟委員報告過上好那部長最後一個問題"},{"start":529.191,"end":548.238,"text":"剛剛提到討論的是地制法那地制法的部分其實剛剛很多委員講得非常的清楚就是直轄縣市的時候希望說不要用人數來限制剛剛特別提到有很多的縣市他的遷移的人口非常的多比如說像台北市他就遷移人口基本上白天的時候有些上班時候"},{"start":548.618,"end":575.992,"text":"人口大概會有300多萬的遷移進去的狀況所以部長我相信剛剛你特別在討論這個議題的時候你沒有明確說明為什麼直轄縣市用三個這個副市長的時候你有疑慮第二個我也要代表這個陳一貞委員請教就是非六都的縣市裡面其實一個副市長其實有時候不太夠那有時候要有文工有武功一個就是說要有些是主要辦文化的有些是主要辦建設的"},{"start":577.153,"end":595.97,"text":"所以我需要說這個六都的部分三個市長我覺得應該是合理因為現在以台灣未來是科技城市醫療城市醫療國家三個副市長應該是可行那非六都的部分我認為一個是這個一個做文化一個做建設應該也可行請部長是不是也同意這樣的情況這樣的建議"},{"start":598.071,"end":612.107,"text":"我想可以討論但是我剛有跟很多委員報告過我們希望能夠提拔優秀的文官而不是只有因為副市長副縣長這些幾乎都會是政務官那優秀的文官那包括有些委員提案"},{"start":612.688,"end":638.686,"text":"全部都是一級主管都全部是政務官的話恐怕會影響到優秀文官的升遷那同時我們要考慮地方上的差異也就是說如果優秀的文官全部都集中在直轄市那當然是好事那有一些呢比較偏鄉的譬如說他的職級比較低然後他也不能夠變成是一個主管的時候那他會留在原來的偏鄉或是比較偏僻的地方服務的可能性就會降低我是考慮到這個部分"},{"start":639.747,"end":660.831,"text":"那委員的修正案或是委員的提案的話我們當然是都可以討論那個不一定是說很死一定要怎樣怎樣才是對的因為剛剛委員有提到有的人流動人口是400萬到500萬那為什麼副市長只有三位那這些都可以討論但是就是沒有一定的定案好那部長最後拜託一下主席不好意思那最後剛剛我第一個問題多久可以給本席資料針對中央政府發函給地方政府的這些資料"},{"start":669.264,"end":676.108,"text":"我再查一下因為我知道不是由我授權的部分所以我再查一下那多久可以給本席資料月底之前好嗎好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:15:46.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:15:49.477000+08:00","text":"主席好，各位委員、各位官員，大家早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:15:50.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:15:50.418000+08:00","text":"有請劉部長。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T10:15:50.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:15:50.579000+08:00","text":"請劉部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:15:54.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:15:55.133000+08:00","text":"張委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:15:55.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:15:55.613000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:15:56.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:16:24.035000+08:00","text":"我想要先請教，針對去年12月25號內政委員會第一次召開機密會議，我相信這是過去以來很少發生的一件事情，當時其實我們就在講，內政部針對很多民防訓練的部分開機密會議，是不是想要規避立法委員監督，去支持某一些民間團體？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:16:24.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:16:28.877000+08:00","text":"結果沒有開會不知道，一開會完嚇一跳。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:16:29.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:17:05.889000+08:00","text":"在1月9號的時候有媒體報導，內政部在去年11月下旬曾發函給某一個直轄市政府，要求未來緊急救護訓練要交由地方的警察局主辦，規劃由壯闊台灣跟黑熊學院等團體來做專業的教師，這整個預算，這些民力訓練、民防訓練總預算是一億兩千多，114年的預算就高達兩千兩百多萬。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:17:05.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:17:17.141000+08:00","text":"我想請教部長，可以這樣子用機密預算來私相授受給一些特定的民間機構，或是甚至想要圖利這些民間機構嗎？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:17:17.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:17:24.009000+08:00","text":"難道內政部的機密就是民進黨不能說的秘密嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:17:24.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:17:24.390000+08:00","text":"請部長回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:17:25.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:17:42.752000+08:00","text":"報告張委員，有一些大概都是假訊息，第一件事情就是我們上一次在審查所謂秘密預算的時候，已經有跟委員報告過，大概就是警政跟消防有涉及到ICT的部分，我們列為秘密預算，這個部分我們需要做專案報告。那我……","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:17:43.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:17:44.152000+08:00","text":"對不起，您讓我講完。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:17:44.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:17:59.956000+08:00","text":"第二個，有關發函的部分，因為這個是內政部授權給警政署發函，我們也把這個訊息稍微再整理一下，我們的這個報告裡面有提到，所謂的黑熊學院或者是壯闊台灣，他們兩個都已經否認，然後同時也告訴委員，到目前為止，從來沒有委託給這兩個部分來做訓練。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:18:10.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:18:39.947000+08:00","text":"部長，我想請問，因為我剛剛有特別講，開秘密會議讓我們很多不管是國民黨、民進黨或民眾黨的委員沒辦法審查預算，結果後來才發現是有吹哨者來爆料說，其實在11月，甚至更早以前，警政署有發函給地方縣市政府，推薦他們，我認為推薦就是要求，因為內政部警政署的推薦我相信就是一道聖旨，警政署有沒有發函這樣的資料給地方政府？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:18:40.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:18:43.954000+08:00","text":"這個是誰下令的，難道是賴清德下令的嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:18:43.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:18:47.340000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們真的去查過，雖然有寫這樣的文字，但是從來沒有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:18:47.340000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:18:48.340000+08:00","text":"有寫這樣的文字，對吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:18:48.340000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:18:49.340000+08:00","text":"從來沒有執行過，沒有這樣的預算給黑熊學院或者是壯闊台灣。","quality":0.115},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:18:49.340000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:18:50.340000+08:00","text":"那是有吹哨者爆料，當然是還沒有執行過，可是部長，你認為這有沒有私相授受、類似圖利特定民間團體的問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:18:50.340000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:18:51.340000+08:00","text":"沒有私相授受。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:18:51.340000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:18:52.340000+08:00","text":"你這樣發函可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:18:50.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:18:51.484000+08:00","text":"這樣違反預算法，我們不會同意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:19:06.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:19:07.389000+08:00","text":"那你們為什麼要發函？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:19:07.389000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:19:08.389000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我已經跟委員講過了，因為這不是我發函的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:19:07.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:19:18.113000+08:00","text":"而且我要跟部長請教這些發函的內容，我請教一下，地方政府能提供這些函文給地方的民意代表或中央的民意代表嗎？","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:19:18.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:19:19.173000+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:19:19.173000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:19:20.173000+08:00","text":"可不可以提供？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:19:19.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:19:22.194000+08:00","text":"函文的部分我們來找一下，好嗎？因為……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:19:22.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:19:22.774000+08:00","text":"答案是不行！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:19:23.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:19:57.898000+08:00","text":"部長，因為中央是用密件的方式，用秘密會議的方式去私相授受這些預算，所以地方政府也不敢把這些公文給地方的民意代表、也不敢給中央的民意代表，因為這就是民進黨政府不能說的秘密，就是要靠中央用秘密會議列密件，到地方也全部都是秘密，讓我們所有中央、地方的民意代表無法審查、無法查核，而且也只能由吹哨者來爆料這樣的事情。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:19:58.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:20:03.245000+08:00","text":"報告委員，您弄錯了，我剛剛提到了，凡是違反預算法規定的，我們不做，也不會做。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:20:03.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:20:04.426000+08:00","text":"那為什麼要發函？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:20:04.426000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:20:05.426000+08:00","text":"我已經跟您報告過了，我不清楚。","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:20:04.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:20:15.016000+08:00","text":"我第二個再請教部長，部長，我剛剛有特別講到，我們在12月25號召開秘密會議，結果大家有沒有聽到？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:20:15.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:20:27.164000+08:00","text":"各位委員，內政部在11月就請警政署發函，甚至更早之前就發這些秘密的函文給各縣市地方政府，而且還要求他們不准說。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:20:27.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:20:38.032000+08:00","text":"我請教一下，部長，為什麼12月25號開秘密會議的時候，當時很多的署長要把這份資料拿給在場開秘密會議的委員？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:20:38.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:20:44.278000+08:00","text":"請問是誰要求他們不要把這些資料提供給所有內政委員會的委員？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:20:44.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:20:46.139000+08:00","text":"我不清楚委員所指的是什麼事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:20:46.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:21:00.710000+08:00","text":"就是內政部警政署發給各地方政府，要求他們要推薦黑熊學院、壯闊台灣成為未來訓練的種子教官。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:21:00.710000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:21:02.351000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我已經講過，內政部沒有推薦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:21:02.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:21:06.554000+08:00","text":"我想請問部長，當時秘密會議的時候，是誰下令請署長不要提供這些資料？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:21:07.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:21:09.361000+08:00","text":"秘密會議按照秘密會議的方式進行。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:21:10.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:21:12.204000+08:00","text":"部長，我收到的資料，那個人好像就是你啊。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:21:12.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:21:17.169000+08:00","text":"不是，我已經跟委員報告過，秘密會議就按照秘密會議的規範進行。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:21:17.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:21:24.015000+08:00","text":"部長，請問你當時在秘密會議的時候，警政署、消防署想要提供這些資料，你有沒有下令說……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:21:24.015000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:21:25.015000+08:00","text":"哪一位？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:21:24.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:21:26.478000+08:00","text":"哪一位署長想要提供資料，我不許他提供？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:21:27.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:21:28.739000+08:00","text":"部長，現在都有吹哨者保護法，我希望……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:21:28.739000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:21:31.121000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，我可以證明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:21:31.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:21:46.592000+08:00","text":"第一個，我跟你報告，現在已經有吹哨者拿出這份密件說，中央的警政署的確有發文給地方政府，用密件的方式要求他們圖利特定的一些民間團體，比如說壯闊台灣、黑熊學院，要求他們來辦理民防……","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:21:46.592000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:21:52.016000+08:00","text":"我剛剛已經跟您否認了，按照預算法的規定，不符合就是不符合。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:21:52.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:22:06.613000+08:00","text":"部長，我拜託你兩件事情，第一個，希望你尊重本委員會，不管是國民黨、民進黨或民眾黨的委員，未來有一些不是密件的東西、不是秘密的東西，只是民進黨不能說的秘密，可不可以不要列密件？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:22:07.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:22:16.931000+08:00","text":"感謝委員提供這些方面的見解，我還是跟委員報告，所謂列密件，或是機密，或是極機密的部分，我們是按照行政院的規範。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:22:17.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:22:21.393000+08:00","text":"請問委託壯闊台灣跟黑熊學院辦理民防訓練，這是秘密、密件嗎？","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:22:21.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:22:28.897000+08:00","text":"我想你把兩件事情合在一起講了，我都非常清楚地跟委員表達，如果沒有按照預算法規定的話，不符合就是不符合。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:22:28.897000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:22:29.997000+08:00","text":"第二個，有關密件……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:22:29.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:22:30.597000+08:00","text":"那為什麼要發函？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:22:30.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:22:32.838000+08:00","text":"這件事情是否應該有人要被懲處？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:22:32.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:22:35.459000+08:00","text":"兩個時間點不一樣，您先看一下，這兩個時間點不一樣。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:22:35.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:22:37.540000+08:00","text":"哪個時間點，請部長……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:22:37.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:22:40.141000+08:00","text":"您剛剛講的這個11月以前發函的部分，在報告裡面……","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:22:40.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:22:41.222000+08:00","text":"有發函，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:22:41.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:22:44.883000+08:00","text":"它有寫「例如」，表示這件事情沒有發生，而且他們已經否認了！","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:22:45.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:22:48.625000+08:00","text":"我剛剛跟部長解釋了，你們的建議就是一道聖旨啊！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:22:49.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:22:51.147000+08:00","text":"地方政府能不接受嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:22:51.147000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:22:52.147000+08:00","text":"不是，抱歉……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:22:51.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:23:00.875000+08:00","text":"而且我跟你講，你這樣還甩鍋給地方政府，未來地方政府使用黑熊學院、壯闊台灣的時候，你就說：那是地方政府要用的啊，跟我們中央無關，我只是建議啊！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:23:01.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:23:06.500000+08:00","text":"可是如果不照內政部警政署的建議，未來升官是不是就會有問題？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:23:06.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:23:11.764000+08:00","text":"這樣子不會有利益衝突、私相授受、圖利特定民間團體的問題嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:23:11.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:23:13.826000+08:00","text":"報告委員，不符合法規規定的，我們一定不會做。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:23:14.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:23:27.950000+08:00","text":"好，部長，兩件事情要跟你拜託，第一個，未來不是密件的，請你尊重我們內政委員會審查預算，我們要做好立法委員的職權，不要再列密件。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:23:28.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:23:39.478000+08:00","text":"第二個，到底是誰要推薦這兩個單位的相關資料，可不可以提供給本委員會、內政委員會的所有委員？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:23:39.478000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:23:40.478000+08:00","text":"我來查查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:23:39.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:23:43.500000+08:00","text":"因為我相信連國民黨、民眾黨、民進黨的委員都不知道這件事情。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:23:44.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:24:01.525000+08:00","text":"第三個，在秘密會議的時候，警政署、消防署在11月份就已經發函給地方政府，這些資料原本在秘密會議要提供給本委員會委員的時候，到底是誰要求兩位署長不能提供這樣的資料？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:24:01.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:24:03.426000+08:00","text":"也請部長幫我們查一下，可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:24:04.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:24:23.110000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，我可以馬上就跟你講，我們是按照行政院的密件規範來執行的，我們也同意在未來內政委員會做專案報告的時候，把沒有涉及到機密的部分儘量公開讓委員了解，這個在上一次我們協商的時候就已經非常清楚地跟委員報告過，以上。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:24:23.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:24:47.859000+08:00","text":"好，部長，最後一個問題，今天要討論的是地制法，地制法的部分其實剛剛很多委員講得非常地清楚，就是直轄市、縣市的部分，希望不要用人數來限制，剛剛有特別提到，有很多縣市遷移的人口非常地多，比如像臺北市，它的遷移人口，基本上白天上班的時候大概會有三百多萬人遷移進去。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:24:49.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:24:58.565000+08:00","text":"部長，所以剛剛你特別在討論這個議題的時候，沒有明確說明，為什麼直轄縣市用3個副市長的時候，你有疑慮？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:24:58.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:25:32.970000+08:00","text":"第二個，我也要代表陳玉珍委員請教，非六都的縣市裡面，其實1個副市長有時候不太夠，要有文功、有武功，有些主要是辦文化的、有些主要是辦建設的，所以六都的部分3個市長，我覺得應該是合理，因為臺灣未來是科技城市、醫療城市、醫療國家，3個副市長應該是可行；非六都的部分，我認為1個做文化、1個做建設應該也可行，部長是不是也同意這樣的情況、這樣的建議？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:25:35.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:26:15.666000+08:00","text":"我想可以討論，但是我剛剛有跟很多委員報告過，我們希望能夠提拔優秀的文官，因為副市長、副縣長這些幾乎都會是政務官，對於優秀的文官，包括有些委員提案，如果一級主管都全部是政務官的話，恐怕會影響到優秀文官的升遷，同時我們要考慮地方上的差異，也就是說，如果優秀的文官全部都集中在直轄市，當然是好事；有一些比較偏鄉的，譬如說他的職級比較低，也不能夠變成主管的時候，他會留在原來的偏鄉或是比較偏僻的地方服務的可能性就會降低，我是考慮到這個部分。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:26:17.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:26:30.850000+08:00","text":"委員的修正案或是委員的提案的話，我們當然是都可以討論，不一定是很死，一定要怎樣怎樣才是對，像剛剛委員提到有的流動人口是400萬到500萬，為什麼副市長只有3位，這些都可以討論。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:26:30.850000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:26:31.850000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:26:30.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:26:32.090000+08:00","text":"但是沒有一定的定案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:26:32.090000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:26:33.090000+08:00","text":"主席，不好意思。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:26:32.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:26:36.371000+08:00","text":"部長，最後拜託一下，剛剛我問的第一個問題，多久可以給本席資料？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:26:36.371000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:26:37.371000+08:00","text":"哪一個？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:26:36.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:26:37.811000+08:00","text":"針對中央政府發函給地方政府的這些資料。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:26:46.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:26:50.407000+08:00","text":"我再查一下，因為不是由我授權的部分，所以我再查一下，我是不是可以在……","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:26:50.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:26:52.128000+08:00","text":"多久可以給本席資料？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T10:26:52.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:26:53.088000+08:00","text":"月底之前好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員智倫","start":"2025-01-13T10:26:53.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T10:26:53.108000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T10:26:53.608000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T10:26:56.465143+08:00","text":"接著請張召委宏陸發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}