{"error":false,"id":["158835"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":158835,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158835","日期":"2025-01-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-2-15,36-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[15,36],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會","司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-01-13T10:46:18+08:00","結束時間":"2025-01-13T10:57:06+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:48","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/293c543958a38e47b964e634828c416d29f121d6a4fe60ddf85eb60e410638a8b3d58fd2b68507d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:46:18 - 10:57:06","會議時間":"2025-01-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、繼續審查委員賴士葆等20人擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法增訂第七條之四條文草案」案。三、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「地方制度法第八十三條之三條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十二條及第六十一條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法第五十六條條文修正草案」案。七、審查委員李坤城等20人擬具「地方制度法第七十八條條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條及第五十六條條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「地方制度法第八十三條之三條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「地方制度法部分條文修正草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.72221875,"end":10.965968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.06784375,"end":7.658468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.42159375,"end":39.197843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.53534375,"end":41.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.34096875,"end":43.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.11284375,"end":50.588468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.094718750000006,"end":62.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.143468750000004,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.54346875,"end":73.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.21784375,"end":117.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.05471875,"end":118.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.05034375000001,"end":172.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.83096875,"end":204.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.62346875,"end":206.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.56409375,"end":213.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.71909375,"end":234.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.28971875000002,"end":249.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.77659375000002,"end":258.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.37034375,"end":262.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.18409375000005,"end":264.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.12034375,"end":269.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.16596875,"end":272.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.51159375000003,"end":284.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.17284375,"end":280.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.07534375,"end":283.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.10471875,"end":287.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.77534375,"end":305.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.91409375,"end":289.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.12034375,"end":292.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.07346875,"end":295.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.08159375,"end":297.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.60034375000004,"end":299.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.19909375000003,"end":301.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.29971875,"end":371.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.30784375,"end":308.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.38221875000005,"end":384.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.47846875000005,"end":376.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.02221875000004,"end":380.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.87846875,"end":382.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.40971875,"end":384.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.54471875,"end":386.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.27034375000005,"end":387.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.46409375,"end":394.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.26471875000004,"end":394.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.33221875000004,"end":407.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.35159375,"end":409.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.08096875,"end":409.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.72221875,"end":430.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.89471875000004,"end":413.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.08596875,"end":447.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.38534375,"end":432.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.53284375000004,"end":434.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.77721875000003,"end":436.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.28159375,"end":473.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.40409375,"end":489.82784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.94596875,"end":512.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.9297187500001,"end":531.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.96471875,"end":543.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.0322187500001,"end":532.1672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.50846875,"end":536.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.5747187500001,"end":545.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.77721875,"end":573.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.0047187499999,"end":547.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.94596875,"end":643.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.62471875,"end":576.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.6697187500001,"end":584.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.9265937499999,"end":587.1797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.1965937500001,"end":587.3147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.6772187500001,"end":644.9597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.16221875,"end":645.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.44034375,"end":647.72721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.041,"end":31.716,"text":"謝謝召委有請劉部長還有財政部政務次長以及園民會的中副主委因為今天時間有限所以我就請三位分別在台上來聽我我們來討論一下今天我們要討論的是地方制度法修正以後對六都三地原住民區的影響我們要來進行討論剛剛相信聽到了幾個委員對於園鄉地區的困境你們應該都了解了那我再說清楚一點"},{"start":32.436,"end":50.387,"text":"在99年2月3號因為武都升格直轄市之後,這導致了我們桃園市的復興區、新北市的烏來區、台中市的和平區、高雄市的茂林、桃園、喇嘛下這三區一夕之間就喪失了我們的自治權跟"},{"start":51.367,"end":68.776,"text":"財政權103年雖然在我的提案修法通過了恢復了自治的權限也就是呢這五個直轄市裡面原住民區的區長是可以被選舉的然後我們也有代表會跟其他五都裡面的是不一樣的好"},{"start":69.176,"end":84.589,"text":"既然是他有恢復了他的自治權可是我比較遺憾的就是我們的享有的稅捐還有公共債務這兩項財政權益並沒有完全充分的來恢復到以前的模樣"},{"start":85.39,"end":110.029,"text":"所以您知道嗎 這導致了我們根據地方制度法第83條之七的規定三地原住民區的自治財源應該要由直轄市跟當地協商當時我們提出當地協商的原因是因為我們認為地方首長會根據地方自治的權限賦予原鄉地區他應該要有的他的財政權 但是很遺憾"},{"start":110.709,"end":140.052,"text":"在實際的狀況當中我們的協商過程明顯不對等因為我們的議員席次不多因此在所謂的協商預算的過程當中僅僅就憑直轄市這個首長他的誠意他的良心來分配財源這使得我們的困境產生了以下的變化來看一下99年跟103年修法之後各地區的預算變化新北市"},{"start":140.832,"end":161.581,"text":"本來有三億六千八百七十六萬也就是修法前修法之後只剩下三億九十一萬減少了六千七百八十四桃園市的復興區原來有八億兩千零二十九萬修法之後只剩下五億兩千七百八十四萬減少了兩億九千兩百四十四萬"},{"start":162.441,"end":168.069,"text":"台中市我的家鄉和平區本來是有5億1761萬修法之後只剩下2億5832萬當下就減少了一半2億5929萬"},{"start":177.401,"end":186.585,"text":"南雄市的茂林區原來有1億1939萬修法之後只剩下9483萬減少了2456萬我們看南馬廈本來有5億7420萬修法之後只剩下1億147萬可能只有可以給公務人員的費用還有水電費就減少了4億7272萬"},{"start":204.733,"end":233.471,"text":"桃園區本來有五億九千四百八十六萬修法之後僅僅剩下一億七千六百三十七萬當下減少了四億一千八百四十八萬我們從這些數據來看我們相信當地的議員都非常的清楚我們各地的補助額度少於改前次的額度甚至於一半這些預算完全就取決於直轄市政府他的意願"},{"start":234.392,"end":246.545,"text":"尤其是高雄市 你看一下高雄市剛剛我們三個山地鄉的原住民的財政分配是最為刻薄的南南廈本來要5億 只剩下一億桃園區本來要5億 只剩下一億"},{"start":250.839,"end":268.152,"text":"市長這樣的錢我恐怕連薪水跟水電費繳完就已經不能夠再做任何一個行使他應該要有的這個地方上的這個未來財政地方上的充裕的財政來增加我們的地方上的收入以及這個這個開發你認為這樣公平嗎"},{"start":273.295,"end":300.723,"text":"跟委員報告我完全了解委員的意見我們也不反對增加原民區的這些財政收入應該要有的自治權跟財政權目前的修法的方向可能會涉及到一些執行面的問題還有要涉及到一些配套的比如像要修公債法或者是地方稅法通責的問題可能在執行上會有一些困難"},{"start":301.463,"end":318.413,"text":"我覺得所以財政部也很關切這個事情所以您知道這個問題對不對尤其高雄市我給你再看一下高雄市我為什麼說高雄市最為刻薄呢我們看一下高雄市的三地區的土地面積它佔整個高雄市的46.61%"},{"start":320.954,"end":339.77,"text":"那根據直轄市的普通統籌分配稅款規定20%是根據土地面積來分配的就是地方要跟中央來取20%是根據土地然後您剛剛看到高雄市的土地面積我們三個區就佔了整個高雄市的46.61%如果按照這樣子的土地面積來分配的話我們的高雄市的三個區不僅分配到這些錢"},{"start":349.978,"end":370.92,"text":"然後不僅僅沒有分配到應該要有的財政的權利反而還比以前還減少了一大半以上所以這加劇了地方自治的困難也阻礙了我們三地區的發展所以這種制度缺陷剛剛次長您說了要修相關的法對吧"},{"start":372.001,"end":381.63,"text":"對我跟委員報告事實上財政部其實對這個事情其實是非常關切我們邀請這個慈霞市跟這個各區的地方政府來開會那大家也交換意見目前交換意見的態度是如何"},{"start":387.936,"end":404.842,"text":"那現在就是因為目前的我們稅收比較好我們的時增數都超過預算數所以呢我們就是希望就是說這些相關的持家室能夠考慮到這些原民區的人自治的需求跟才人需要能夠盡量給他這個尤其自治權跟財政權對吧"},{"start":410.285,"end":425.192,"text":"自治權跟財政權很重要吧我們一直在講其他五都升格了之後其他的區都沒有所謂的代表會他也沒有選舉的權利只有原住民因為是憲法保障保障我們的參政權所以我們有幾個直轄市升格之後有幾個區市"},{"start":431.215,"end":447.207,"text":"人民選出來的包括有地方代表 對吧講得很清楚嘛所以呢今天我們才會針對地方制度法的第83條之3來修正大家看一下我的條文我在第二項的部分"},{"start":448.362,"end":473.439,"text":"有三地原住民區的稅捐三地原住民區公共債務的部分提出我的修法的意見然後在最後一項就是第二款財政事項應該要參著合併改制前的方式辦理這是我針對地方制度法的缺失我提出的方案講簡單一點就是要恢復要先恢復三地原住民區的稅捐還有公共"},{"start":475.461,"end":502.114,"text":"債務財政的事項要賦予它應該要有的財政自主權講白了就是這樣第二個就是現行的財源分配如果僅僅憑直轄市跟原住民地區來協商這會導致不對等的局面所以我要求要納入參酌改制前分配的方式來避免分配隨意性我要持續的推動修法"},{"start":502.814,"end":532.078,"text":"為了要均衡城鄉發展跟原住民族自治要爭取更完善的保障我希望今天時間有限我希望財政部也好內政部部長也好原民會員也好你們趕快來討論一下我除了地方制度法要提議修改這個條文之外還有哪一些必須要同步的我希望你們在一個月之內給我的辦公室可行性的評估方案好不好"},{"start":532.538,"end":554.074,"text":"這個沒有問題是不是我簡單的補充說明一下那委員的關切這個區公所就園民區公所的這個財源問題我們都非常理解所以問題就是說目前的現在園民區的不管是加上人口數面積全部都納到直轄市現在把它拆開來"},{"start":555.155,"end":580.457,"text":"就會跟有一個問題就是什麼問題呢就是說園民區的這些他的財源分配就要跟其他的這些鄉鎮市要共同來分配但是那個比例是固定的就會影響到其他的這些市長你這樣說你這樣子的說法我不會接受我不接受你這樣的說法我必須要告訴你現在地方要跟中央要我們的統籌稅款"},{"start":581.638,"end":605.021,"text":"是用什麼來做依據是不是用土地人口稅捐對吧原住民地區人口是弱勢稅捐也弱勢我們唯一的強勢就是土地你如果地方政府不把土地那邊為應該要有的財政分配這怎麼會對於原住民區或者是原住民鄉公平呢所以您在這裡就不要多做發言了"},{"start":605.401,"end":633.763,"text":"我要求你們三位一個月之內提出可行性的評估第二個就是今天的修法我會非常的堅持如果今天召委不一起把它送出去的話我都認為下次是可討論的包括民進黨的委員也有提案剛剛鴻祿委員、美惠委員都非常贊同本席的說法所以地方制度法的原住民的財政跟自治權限的修法大家都有高度的共識"},{"start":634.363,"end":643.841,"text":"所以我要求你們一個月之內再告訴我們還有再修其他法我們一定要處理好嗎不是今天的不處理是大家有高度的共識OK謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}