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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十二條及第六十一條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法第五十六條條文修正草案」案。七、審查委員李坤城等20人擬具「地方制度法第七十八條條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條及第五十六條條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「地方制度法第八十三條之三條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「地方制度法部分條文修正草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":0.03096875,"end":0.79034375,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":2.2078437500000003,"end":4.8572187499999995,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.72596875,"end":12.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.46784375,"end":13.497218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.407218750000002,"end":22.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":22.44096875,"end":23.28471875,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":23.52096875,"end":24.63471875,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":25.22534375,"end":27.419093750000002,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":27.65534375,"end":46.48784375,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":46.656593750000006,"end":69.21846875,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":69.69096875000001,"end":71.29409375,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.54721875,"end":71.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":71.98596875,"end":92.48909375000001,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.49784375,"end":140.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":138.30471875,"end":142.35471875000002,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.91596875000002,"end":145.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":143.01284375,"end":156.44534375,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.01221875000002,"end":148.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.88096875000002,"end":152.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.83784375000002,"end":159.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":156.98534375,"end":166.75596875000002,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":167.07659375,"end":193.21596875,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":193.26659375,"end":209.53409375,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":209.78721875000002,"end":219.20346875,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":220.77284375000002,"end":220.80659375000002,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.80659375000002,"end":221.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.80221875,"end":229.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":227.08409375000002,"end":229.91909375,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.91909375,"end":230.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":230.03721875000002,"end":239.16659375,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.07784375000003,"end":242.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":242.22096875000003,"end":246.32159375,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.32159375,"end":251.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":246.42284375000003,"end":246.47346875000002,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":246.49034375000002,"end":251.67096875000001,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":252.29534375000003,"end":275.31284375,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":275.76846875,"end":287.15909375,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.74721875,"end":277.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":288.08721875000003,"end":299.56221875,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":299.86596875000004,"end":305.65409375,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":306.05909375000005,"end":309.92346875000004,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.92346875000004,"end":310.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.22721875,"end":320.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.53784375000004,"end":328.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":327.27096875,"end":376.56284375,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.22846875000005,"end":330.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.98409375,"end":354.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":377.08596875,"end":419.45909375,"speaker_score":0.924},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","sta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到內政部來登記的話 只要他合乎那個人民團體的組織 沒錯 民間團體都可以登記 每一個人都有 但是說我問你的是說他的民房教育算公益活動嗎 他可以去募款嗎 為了這件事情要去募款嗎"},{"start":240.523,"end":248.972,"text":"合乎我們人民團體的條例的話合乎任何的團體去申請募款申請募款是由衛福部來認定的主要的就是公益團體才能是募款但是呢在兩年前我們的潮信城宣布捐給我們"},{"start":263.827,"end":268.268,"text":"黑松學院10億元就是給黑松學院所以他的錢已經在花完了嗎所以才要去進行募款嗎如果花完了 那我們的根據我們的公益募捐的第18條再第19條的規定真人捐贈的資料"},{"start":288.14,"end":291.362,"text":"捐募的活動所得收支報告還有公開徵信並包主管機關備查所以他的募款的這個項目他要花在這兩到三年內所以這個部分我們部長你知道嗎他們花光了嗎他們可以現在又再募款嗎"},{"start":310.331,"end":328.457,"text":"那個委員跟您講一下衛福部他們針對所謂的社團法人黑熊民房教育協會的公益勸募一億有發一個新聞稿那我剛跟您解釋過了這個部分的話呢他在1月6號的新聞稿解釋得非常清楚那我想就把這個新聞稿給委員參考好嗎好如果是這樣的話我們也是希望說他募款這是花錢"},{"start":332.799,"end":334.841,"text":"要拿我們的捐款的錢花在刀口上因為我們在真心城市在2022年9月就是要捐給我們的黑松協議應該在今年9月份這筆錢就是花在他募款的目的還有項目"},{"start":353.061,"end":355.502,"text":"要花完或者是沒有花完也是要跟你們的內政部去報告因為我們需要的社會幫助的是弱勢團體所以我們募款的目的也是幫助弱勢團體弱勢家庭有需要的但是我們看到的不是這樣所以這個部分我們會去追蹤"},{"start":377.128,"end":378.909,"text":"第二個要請教部長現在的我們的地質法職場室就是要超過250萬人才有第三個副市長非職場室的話就要超過125萬人"},{"start":393.675,"end":396.818,"text":"但是現在呢我們台灣目前我們新生兒就是生不如死所以這樣的比例我們要如何來去做這樣子的制度的管理呢還有就是說如果我們依照舊的地方自住法的話需要是人口比例來去分配但是我要請教我們的部長"},{"start":420.097,"end":426.19,"text":"我們要以居住人口還是戶籍人口來去做這樣的比例分配呢"},{"start":429.141,"end":437.687,"text":"跟委員提一下就是其實我們到目前為止都是有涉戶籍才算是 如果這樣子你覺得說涉戶籍才算嘛是不是才有用這樣的比例人口嘛在選舉制度上面如果涉戶籍也沒辦法處理因為都是為了選籍來涉戶籍但是呢我們現在外籍人士居住的人口還有說你說這樣子去算的話以前我們的職場是我們還沒有合併的時候"},{"start":459.702,"end":464.626,"text":"现在也是我们的非执察室我们有市长也有副市长还有县长也有副县长还有加上市长跟县长这样子的去服务但是我们是合并的时候要这样子的人口数来去要求的话所以外籍人士去住台湾都不用服务吗"},{"start":480.64,"end":482.881,"text":"對待越直轄市的人口越來越多因為工作的需求還有外國人來台灣的需求所以你覺得說現在的我們要去修法你不認同是因為你要用人口數來去比例但是人口數"},{"start":500.285,"end":505.926,"text":"不是等於服務人考數啊你用戶籍人考數就是為了選籍去掌握服務選籍的人嗎不是嘛因為選籍的人去繳稅沒有身份證的人一樣要繳稅一樣要服務啊所以我們是要以現在我們要修法過後的我們覺得是比較真正的服務到"},{"start":527.392,"end":552.615,"text":"也有让我们的民众可以有感因为我们需要去服务的市长像比如说现在我们如果这个修法通过的话我们要固定我们十杂市的三个副市长非执杂市的人口就是以2%但是像比如说我们的台北、桃园、台南"},{"start":554.07,"end":555.592,"text":"他們的人口數戶籍人口數沒有達到的話我們就沒有三個市長但是他的服務的人口數是比別的縣市多變台北跟桃園"},{"start":569.27,"end":581.674,"text":"是移工還有移民人士是最多的所以如果是這樣子的服務的話才是公平我們以人士來去算的話我覺得這樣子的話對於說我們以人口數來去算戶籍人士才要去算但是居住的人越來越多你不能這樣子去算的話我覺得不公平我們要有一個固定的因為人口很多他的"},{"start":597.58,"end":600.062,"text":"服務越來越多,他的要跑的地方越多,問題越來越多,不能說我們現在以我們舊的制度來去服務對我們的職場是不公平的,所以我們希望說這個部分的話,我們"},{"start":615.765,"end":622.653,"text":"部長要去要去同意這樣子的方式不要認為說因為現在呢各個縣市首長因為國民黨比較多所以呢他們那秋修這個法你們就認為因為他們人口他們的"},{"start":634.185,"end":636.827,"text":"的首長比較多所以他們要修這個你們人口比較少你們就覺得不必要這樣變成是政治的因素不是修法的因素來去考量所以我們覺得說如果是這樣子的考量的話我們很多我們的民進黨的要選各個首長沒有選帳但是他們還可以安排到不同部會當部長"},{"start":662.776,"end":666.337,"text":"他們也不專業也去管理那麼多都是專業我們用公務人員是要苦讀四年三年還要苦考好幾次才考上的他們的專業但是各個部長過來當部長因為選不上因為就有選不上還可以當部長還可以當個首長這樣子的話也不公平所以我們認為"},{"start":687.964,"end":692.387,"text":"新的制度修正 實際收回的是我們全國的人民 縣市也可以更穩定推動我們的政策 還有我們希望我們要做對的事情 我們要做了為我們人民來去考量 不要為了黨而黨 為了"},{"start":709.608,"end":716.473,"text":"要政治來去做考量我們要為福國利民來去做主要的目的來考量所以我們希望我們的部長要以這樣子來去做一個去修法還有說要來怎麼樣去對我們的人民還有我們對地方的首長更多的資源讓大家服務更更周到更全面以上"},{"start":736.369,"end":744.417,"text":"報告委員您剛所提的部分我是特別提到沒有配套措施並不是表示反對所以我們必須要設地板跟天花板所以你認為哪一個配套措施剛才我們召委說每次我是雖然是來立法院沒有像你那麼長但是每次我們修法都是各個委員提出來"},{"start":756.869,"end":757.951,"text":"在要求我們內政部來提我們的法案再來提供修法不是你主動你覺得說這個法要修都是各個委員提出來你不會見得說你認同"},{"start":772.39,"end":777.456,"text":"等你認同了不到到民國幾年了啦我們希望說等你要是每一次都逼著你認同你才認同不是你主動去認同這個才是我們因為現在修法在立法院裡面要你一句公事確實不容易"},{"start":790.589,"end":817.921,"text":"我们每一个立委要去修法都不容易每一个人都要经过考量经过很多我们也希望说我们要修法不管公听会也好或者我们委员要发言也好把我们的重点不是开了多少公听会还是说多少人来去说广泛讨论我们要的公听会也好广泛讨论也好"},{"start":818.721,"end":826.009,"text":"修法也好 把修法的重點去講不要每次太多也是沒有講到重點也沒有要真正的把這個法來去讓更多人知道因為時間的關係 所以我就講到這裡希望我們的部長就是尊重每一位委員的修法"},{"start":840.285,"end":868.809,"text":"有關直轄市設副市長這個部分我剛剛有提到說要設的是一個地板的門檻如何往上加要往上加不同的規範但是重點在這邊我特別提到如果你因為事情繁多只增設一個副市長而下面的局處或是下面的公務人員沒有因此而跟著增加或改變的話其實對於如何讓縣市政府的政府效能更好是有疑問的所以我才提到配套措施"},{"start":869.329,"end":872.651,"text":"所以我剛才還說嘛 如果是配套措施的話因為時間的關係 配套措施我希望我們的部會要提出有效的 不能說別人的不好 自己不抱歉這樣也不好啦"},{"start":888.318,"end":902.489,"text":"譬如說台南市我有請教過台南市現在的人口並不及台北市然後他們不急著要提出所謂的新的副市長但是他們有提到說他們台南市他要推廣捷運所以他可不可以增加一個捷運局"},{"start":903.149,"end":931.621,"text":"好那增加捷運局的話那局下面就有很多工程師啊等等這些所以每一個民選的縣市首長他們都有考慮到說未來怎麼樣做讓他們縣市政府發展最好所以我再一再重複提到說要有配套措施要有這個文官公務人員的一個設置然後當然還有包括財政收支劃分法或者是地方自助法裡面所授的這個公務債務等等這些我剛剛有特別提到這個部分並不是我們沒有考慮到這個我想請委員不要誤會"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:29:53.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:29:53.758000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:29:55.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:29:57.022000+08:00","text":"有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T11:29:57.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:29:57.042000+08:00","text":"請劉部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:29:57.042000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:30:03.897000+08:00","text":"麥委員你好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:30:03.897000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:30:10.752000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:30:10.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:30:53.956000+08:00","text":"有很多事情要請教，警政署114年新編列2,218萬投入民防訓練，並規劃由壯闊臺灣、黑熊學院等團體辦理相關的課程，警政署在星期五（10號）的時候，也對外證實了這個消息，所以有很多事情要請教部長，部長去年113年發給各直轄市政府要求指定預算給黑熊學院使用的公文，是一般公文還是密等？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:30:54.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:31:14.186000+08:00","text":"這個要請教一下，因為我們看到，部長應該知道，我們民進黨的鏡週刊鏡檢自己也說了你們發的公文是密等，難道提升社會防禦的計畫，是秘密計畫嗎？","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:31:14.186000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:31:15.186000+08:00","text":"在這邊問你一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:31:14.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:31:52.680000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我剛剛有跟其他委員澄清過，第一個，我們任何計劃都要按照預算法執行，內政部發的這個函，它是由警政署，因為是授權的關係發出去的，這個函裡面提到所謂的民力任務隊，不是外界所說的，它是說規劃NGO團體之專業師資，例如壯闊臺灣、黑熊學院等團體，到目前為止我上任之後，我們並沒有任何一筆預算是用預算法的方式委託給壯闊臺灣跟黑熊學院，同時，這兩個團體他們也對外講，他們從來沒有跟內政部申請過這相關的經費。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:32:01.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:32:03.325000+08:00","text":"至於媒體上面的話……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:32:03.325000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:32:04.325000+08:00","text":"這樣鏡周刊是「黑白講」的嗎？","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:32:04.325000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:32:05.325000+08:00","text":"我們會去澄清，而且警政署也發函了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:32:05.325000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:32:06.325000+08:00","text":"他們常常都「黑白講」，你們都不會去跟他們說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:32:06.325000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:32:07.325000+08:00","text":"跟我們有關的我們就會去澄清……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:32:07.325000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:32:08.325000+08:00","text":"他們就會變成常常就可以隨便「黑白講」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:32:04.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:32:05.408000+08:00","text":"我們會去澄清，而且我們已經發函了。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:32:21.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:32:23.850000+08:00","text":"你們去澄清而已，所以你們不會去告鏡周刊，因為他們都亂講話，所以你們就允許他們這樣子亂講話，我們去澄清就好，是這樣嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:32:33.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:33:05.119000+08:00","text":"我們希望全民納稅錢不能只是去養黑熊學院，所以我們想要關心黑熊學院一件事情，在公益勸募的平臺募款，我們質疑它是違反公益勸募條例，雖然是衛生福利部出面背書表示黑熊學院是合法勸募的團體，但是爭議還是很大，第一個，請教部長，所以你認同黑熊學院推廣民防教育算是公益活動嗎？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:33:26.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:33:32.421000+08:00","text":"我想所有的團體到內政部來登記的話，只要它合乎那個人民團體組織，我們都認同……","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:33:32.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:33:40.564000+08:00","text":"沒錯，民間團體都可以申請，每一個人都有，但是我問你的是說，它的民防教育算公益活動嗎？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:33:40.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:33:42.404000+08:00","text":"它可以去募款嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:33:42.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:33:43.785000+08:00","text":"為了這件事情可以去募款嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:33:45.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:33:46.945000+08:00","text":"如果它合乎我們的人民團體……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:33:47.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:33:50.909000+08:00","text":"合乎任何的團體去申請募款都是公益團體，但是合乎的是說……","quality":0.52},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:33:51.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:33:51.470000+08:00","text":"是衛福部認定的。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:33:51.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:34:11.108000+08:00","text":"主要的就是公益團體才能募款，但是在兩年前曹興誠宣布捐給黑熊學院10億元，所以它的錢花完了嗎？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:34:11.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:34:11.508000+08:00","text":"所以才要去進行募款嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:34:11.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:34:35.661000+08:00","text":"如果花完了，根據我們的公益勸募條例第十八條、第十九條的規定，捐贈人捐贈資料、勸募活動所得與收支報告及公開徵信，並報主管機關備查，所以它的募款這個項目，它要在這兩到三年內要報主管機關備查，所以這個部分，部長你知道嗎？","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:34:35.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:34:35.981000+08:00","text":"他們花光了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:34:35.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:34:36.362000+08:00","text":"他們可以現在又再募款嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:34:55.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:35:12.517000+08:00","text":"委員跟您講一下，衛福部針對所謂的社團法人黑熊民防教育協會的公益勸募疑義有發一個新聞稿，那我剛跟您解釋過了，這個部分的話，它在1月6號的新聞稿解釋得非常清楚，我想就把這個新聞稿給委員參考，好嗎？","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:35:12.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:35:40.502000+08:00","text":"如果是這樣的話，它募款這是花錢，我們也希望我們捐款的錢花在刀口上，因為曹興誠是在2022年9月捐給黑熊學院，應該在今年9月份這筆錢花在它募款的目的還有項目要花完，或者是沒有花完也是要跟內政部去報告，因為我們需要社會幫助的是弱勢團體，所以我們募款的目的也是幫助弱勢團體、弱勢家庭、有需要的人，但是我們看到的不是這樣，所以這個部分我們也會去追蹤。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:36:02.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:36:19.676000+08:00","text":"第二個，要請教部長，現在的地制法，直轄市要超過250萬人才有第三個副市長，非直轄市的話，就要超過125萬人，但是現在臺灣目前新生兒出生人數不如死亡人數，所以這樣的比例，我們要如何來去做制度的管理呢？","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:36:19.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:36:51.170000+08:00","text":"還有如果我們依照舊的地方制度法的話，需要依人口比例去分配，但是我要請教部長，我們要以居住人口還是戶籍人口來去做這樣的比例分配呢？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:36:54.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:36:57.763000+08:00","text":"跟委員提一下，其實我們到目前為止都是有設戶籍才算。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:36:57.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:36:59.925000+08:00","text":"是，如果是這樣，你說設戶籍才算嘛，才有用這樣的比例人口，但是……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:37:00.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:37:00.425000+08:00","text":"在選舉制度上面，如果你沒有設戶籍，沒辦法處理。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:37:00.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:37:29.506000+08:00","text":"是，因為都是為了選舉來設戶籍，但是現在外籍人士居住的人口，還有你說這樣去算的話，以前直轄市還沒有合併的時候，現在也有非直轄市，我們有市長也有副市長，有縣長也有副縣長，還有加上市長跟縣長，這樣去服務，但是合併的時候要以人口數去要求的話，所以外籍人士居住臺灣都不用服務嗎？","quality":0.713},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:37:45.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:38:08.426000+08:00","text":"直轄市的人口越來越多，因為工作的需求，還有外國人來臺灣的需求，現在我們要修法，你不認同，是因為你要看人口比例，但是人口數不等於服務人口數，你用戶籍人口數，就是為了選舉去掌握服務選舉的人嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:38:08.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:38:09.706000+08:00","text":"不是嘛，因為選舉的人要繳稅，沒有身分證的人一樣要繳稅，一樣要服務啊。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:38:09.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:39:19.592000+08:00","text":"所以我們覺得現在修法過後的是比較真正能夠服務到，也比較能讓民眾有感，因為如果現在這個修法通過的話，直轄市固定有3個副市長，非直轄市的人口就是以2%，但是像臺北、桃園、臺南，如果他們的戶籍人口數沒有達到的話，就沒有3個副市長，但是他們服務的人口數比別的縣市多，臺北、桃園的移工還有移民人數是最多的，所以要這樣服務才算公平。","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:39:19.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:39:44.742000+08:00","text":"如果我們用戶籍人口數去算，但是居住的人越來越多啊，你不能這樣子去算，我覺得不公平，我們要有一個固定的，因為人口很多，他的服務越來越多，他要跑的地方越多，問題越來越多，不能用現在的制度去服務，對直轄市是不公平的。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:39:44.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:40:20.306000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望這部分部長能夠同意，不要因為現在各個縣市首長以國民黨比較多，所以修這個法，你們就認為他們的首長比較多，所以他們要修法，你們的首長比較少，你們就覺得不必要，這樣會變成以政治因素而不是修法因素去考量。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:40:20.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:40:51.217000+08:00","text":"我們覺得如果這樣去考量的話，很多民進黨人要選首長，沒有選上他們還可以被安排到不同部會當部會首長，他們不專業，還要去管理那麼多專業的公務人員，公務人員都要苦讀三、四年，還要苦考好幾次才考上的，但是很多部長選不上，卻還可以當部長，這樣也不公平。","quality":0.835},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:40:51.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:41:15.866000+08:00","text":"所以我們認為修正過後新的制度實際受惠的是全國人民，縣市也可以更穩定的推動政策。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:41:15.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:41:37.510000+08:00","text":"還有我們要做對的事情，我們要為了人民去考量，不要為了擋而擋，不要為了政治考量，我們要以福國利民為主要的目的去考量。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:41:37.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:41:41.413000+08:00","text":"希望部長要以這樣的態度去修法，提供人民還有地方首長更多的資源，讓大家服務更周到、更全面。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:41:41.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:42:01.369000+08:00","text":"以上報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:42:01.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:42:06.855000+08:00","text":"報告委員，您剛剛所提的部分我是特別提到沒有配套措施，並不是表示反對，所以我們必須要設地板跟天花板。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:42:06.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:42:07.355000+08:00","text":"所以你認為應該有哪一個配套措施？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:42:07.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:42:40.153000+08:00","text":"剛才我們召委說，雖然我來立法院沒有像你那麼長時間，但是每次我們修法都是各個委員提出來，再要求內政部來提法案，都不是你覺得這個法要修主動提出，都是各個委員提出來，當然你不見得認同，但是要等你認同了，不知道要到民國幾年了啦。","quality":0.832},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:42:40.153000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:42:41.153000+08:00","text":"我要跟您解釋的是……","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:42:40.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:42:41.294000+08:00","text":"我們希望不要每一次都是我們逼著你認同你才認同，不是你主動去認同，這個才是我們……","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:42:41.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:42:42.436000+08:00","text":"因為現在修法在立法院裡面要凝聚共識確實不容易……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:42:42.436000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:42:49.192500+08:00","text":"是，當然……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:42:49.192500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:42:55.949000+08:00","text":"但是請容我跟您解釋30秒……","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:42:55.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:42:58.270000+08:00","text":"每一個立委要去修法當然都不容易……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:42:58.270000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:42:59.270000+08:00","text":"我來講一下有關直轄市副市長的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:42:58.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:43:28.406000+08:00","text":"每一個人都要經過考量，我們也希望修法不管公聽會也好，或者委員發言也好，重點不是開了多少公聽會，還是多少人來廣泛討論，我們要講修法的重點，不要每次……","quality":0.712},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:43:28.406000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:43:29.406000+08:00","text":"我現在都講重點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:43:28.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:43:29.608000+08:00","text":"會開再多也沒有講到重點，也沒有要讓這個法讓更多人知道。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:43:29.608000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:43:30.608000+08:00","text":"你誤解了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:43:29.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:43:30.989000+08:00","text":"因為時間的關係，我就講到這裡，希望部長尊重每一位委員的修法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:43:30.989000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:43:45.285000+08:00","text":"委員給我30秒解釋好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:43:45.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:44:13.789000+08:00","text":"有關直轄市設副市長這個部分，我剛剛有提到要設的是一個地板的門檻，如何往上加，要往上加不同的規範，但是重點在於，我特別提到如果你因為事情繁多，只增設一個副市長，而下面的局處或公務人員沒有因此而跟著增加或改變的話，其實對於如何讓縣市政府的效能更好是有疑問的，所以我才提到配套措施。","quality":0.992},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:44:13.789000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:44:14.789000+08:00","text":"如果你一定要提……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:44:14.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:44:14.589000+08:00","text":"所以我剛才才說嘛……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:44:14.589000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:44:15.589000+08:00","text":"我還沒有講完……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-13T11:44:14.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:44:17.631000+08:00","text":"如果是配套措施的話，因為時間的關係，配套措施我希望部會要提出有效的，不能說別人的沒效，自己也沒拿出什麼，這樣也沒效啦。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:44:33.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:44:51.590000+08:00","text":"委員，你誤會太大了，譬如臺南市，我有請教過，臺南市現在的人口並不及臺北市，他們不急著要提出新的副市長，但是他們有提到他們臺南市要推廣捷運，希望可以增加一個捷運局，那增加捷運局的話，局下面就有很多工程師等等。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:44:52.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:44:58.693000+08:00","text":"所以每一個民選的縣市首長他們都有考慮到未來怎麼樣做，可以讓他們縣市發展最好。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T11:44:59.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T11:45:16.621000+08:00","text":"所以我才一再重複提到要有配套措施，要有這個文官、公務人員的設置，當然還有包括財政收支劃分法或地方制度法裡所受的公共債務這些，我剛剛有特別提到這個部分，並不是我們沒有考慮到，我想請委員不要誤會。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T11:45:17.121000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:45:18.549571+08:00","text":"好，謝謝部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-13T11:45:18.849571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T11:45:21.421000+08:00","text":"接下來請黃建賓委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}