{"error":false,"id":["158848"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":158848,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158848","日期":"2025-01-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-2-15,36-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[15,36],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會","司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-01-13T12:18:28+08:00","結束時間":"2025-01-13T12:28:19+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:51","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/293c543958a38e47adf40078dddfe4b329f121d6a4fe60dd20fa0258716fbc77ee9170943cc9f2f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:18:28 - 12:28:19","會議時間":"2025-01-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、繼續審查委員賴士葆等20人擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法增訂第七條之四條文草案」案。三、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「地方制度法第八十三條之三條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十二條及第六十一條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法第五十六條條文修正草案」案。七、審查委員李坤城等20人擬具「地方制度法第七十八條條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條及第五十六條條文修正草案」案。九、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「地方制度法第八十三條之三條文修正草案」案。十、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」案。十一、審查委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「地方制度法部分條文修正草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":5.24534375,"end":11.708468750000002,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":12.653468750000002,"end":13.547843750000002,"speaker_score":0.897},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":13.615343750000001,"end":15.066593750000003,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":15.437843750000003,"end":23.04846875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":23.48721875,"end":26.254718750000002,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":27.95909375,"end":28.53284375,"speaker_score":0.897},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":29.12346875,"end":30.000968750000002,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":30.49034375,"end":30.895343750000002,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":30.726593750000003,"end":31.16534375,"speaker_score":0.897},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":31.469093750000003,"end":33.595343750000005,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":31.65471875,"end":31.97534375,"speaker_score":0.897},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":32.025968750000004,"end":32.04284375,"speaker_score":0.897},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":32.07659375,"end":32.09346875,"speaker_score":0.897},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":33.86534375,"end":35.080343750000004,"speaker_score":0.897},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":34.59096875,"end":42.353468750000005,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":36.244718750000004,"end":36.51471875,"speaker_score":0.897},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":43.922843750000006,"end":44.95221875,"speaker_score":0.897},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":44.95221875,"end":48.81659375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":47.58471875,"end":52.63034375,"speaker_score":0.897},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":49.322843750000004,"end":51.04409375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":53.03534375,"end":54.267218750000005,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":54.50346875,"end":59.447843750000004,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":55.34721875,"end":55.87034375,"speaker_score":0.897},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":58.75596875,"end":61.60784375,"speaker_score":0.897},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":59.81909375,"end":68.66159375000001,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":68.94846875,"end":72.12096875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":72.79596875,"end":81.21659375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":81.60471875,"end":94.96971875000001,"speaker_score":0.897},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":93.26534375,"end":93.70409375000001,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":94.91909375,"end":108.03096875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":108.65534375,"end":118.47659375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":118.89846875,"end":125.47971875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":125.93534375,"end":188.99721875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":189.52034375000002,"end":217.14471875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":217.16159375,"end":288.79596875000004,"speaker_score":0.897},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":234.18846875000003,"end":234.25596875000002,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":244.48221875000002,"end":244.66784375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":250.18596875000003,"end":252.29534375000003,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":288.76221875000005,"end":295.64721875000004,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":291.96846875,"end":311.07096875,"speaker_score":0.897},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":309.87284375,"end":314.56409375000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席之如今這跟主題無關的我們就少講一點內政部長有請我也沒下去辛苦了 部長今天我們討論地方制度法的修法當然大家比較關注的一個重點基本上就是說在副市長的部分部長你知道我們行政院下面有幾個政委嗎"},{"start":27.998,"end":42.045,"text":"有位吧其實還蠻多的啦對不對有位其實我們政委的工作主要是做什麼跨部會的協調對其實是跨部協調對不對那基本上以部長的了解在縣市政府這樣一個層級負責跨局處協調的是誰縣市政府對在地方政府的層級我們中央叫部會你說市政府裡面是誰對誰負責跨局處一般來講應該是市府的秘書長"},{"start":53.12,"end":80.871,"text":"叫府一層啦叫府一層就是說市長、副市長對不對秘書長秘書長、過副秘書長過副秘書長對不對其實相對來講雖然做的事情有點不太一樣但其實業務都非常非常的繁重那我想再請問部長就是說直轄市之所以為直轄市的原因是什麼就我們從本來的北高然後變成六都對不對就合併深閣最近甚至大家討論新竹要不要合併深閣等等直轄市為什麼要變做直轄市"},{"start":82.13,"end":107.569,"text":"不管是人口或者是說他在經濟發展或是他扮演一個比較龍頭的角色各有不同的這個層級所以我想變為直轄市他也需要經過行政程序才能變為直轄市而不是說變就變你剛剛除了人口之外你這邊有講了城市的特性對不對講了服務員講了產業所以講他一定在地方政治的角度裡面他扮演是龍頭的角色所以其實部長剛剛的回答就表示說人口並不是判斷是否為直轄市的唯一標準"},{"start":108.7,"end":125.121,"text":"對不對所以盡量很多人去談說我們要不要著雨增加這個副市長的人數本期其實認為應該用個比較開放而且甚至是用鼓勵的方式來做處理啊為什麼呢因為除了我剛剛講你現在中央其實有很多的政務委員可以協調但地方相對來講做跨局處的人手是不足的之外"},{"start":126.002,"end":152.804,"text":"我以桃園來舉例桃園現在的局處是32個已經達到了上限那如果是兩位副市長的情況之下其實一個副市長實務上在地方政治的角度來講副市長就是一個人督導大概一半的局處所以一個人就要督導16個局處其實是非常非常辛苦的一件事情我們希望中央我們在討論修法的時候可以用一個照顧地方可以地方更多人才也好或者是更多人力的角度也好來提升地方政治的一個品質"},{"start":153.484,"end":177.575,"text":"如果這個副市長的人數可以增加到3個每一個人要督導的局數大概就是到10個其實也10個或11個其實也是非常多啦所以我覺得左右增加人數是有必要的那剛剛很多人其實都提到了才化法本席完全同意就是說才化法的修正完畢之後市權要做調整這個我覺得是本來就是應該這樣那麼這個市權的調整必然伴隨著地方業務量的增加嘛"},{"start":178.015,"end":188.674,"text":"我拿到了更多的錢我當然要做更多的事啊對不對我們不是說地方只拿錢不做事嘛相對來講當然要花點時間來做討論但當市權增加的時候我們難道不需要多一點的人力嗎"},{"start":190.085,"end":217.016,"text":"我地方得到的資源增加了市政的業務增加了那我在人力上面尤其是跨局處的業務通常是最困難的嘛單一局處負責的很單純嘛這個局把它處理掉就好可是跨局處的這個有這個的為難那個有那個的想法對不對所以就要由府的高層來介入協調多一點這樣的人力其實就會改善地方政治的品質啦從這樣子的角度來看部長會不會比較覺得可以接受就是說直轄市的部分由副市長綠定為三人這樣的想法"},{"start":217.736,"end":232.308,"text":"謝謝牛委員的指教我想委員有提到其實在做協調工作的不是只有副首長包括秘書長 副秘書長那其實在縣市地方政府也有所謂的參議或是參事這樣的角色那最主要是在於說首長要授權要處理什麼事"},{"start":234.249,"end":251.36,"text":"我相信你牛委員所在的這個桃園市也是一樣不是兩個副市長工作量是一半一半不會只有五十五十都會看狀況而定最重要是他專業所以副首長的工作只有在處理這個協調的工作我覺得未免把他這個層級落低了我今天只是舉一個例子"},{"start":251.96,"end":265.884,"text":"我想這樣所以我剛才特別提到說我們在考量的時候不要有單一只用這個選舉人口也是戶籍人口來計算你還會考慮到很多其他的因素但你考慮其他因素的時候我一直在強調這個縣市政府在處理自己的行政業務的時候不會只有一個首長"},{"start":270.945,"end":288.111,"text":"而是首長下面很多局處要不要跟著改變或改進這樣其實你在協調的時候才會互相焊隔像我提到其實我們有問過台南市政府桃園市我們有問了台南市政府他不認為說增設副市長對他們有什麼功能他要增設的是捷運局他希望我們幫忙"},{"start":289.091,"end":313.707,"text":"還要偵測局數他OK啦因為他29個局數是他的天花板嘛又會買200萬他現在25個嘛所以當然可以支持啦我的意思是說我們在討論的過程當中每個縣市政府有他的看法也不是互相拉扯所以我們才知道說其實這個不是只有用選舉人口但是因為提案的委員他是用這個戶籍人口作為單一的標準的話這樣討論的話是縣型的制度是用人口作為單一標準所以他可能沒有辦法要增加嘛"},{"start":314.908,"end":334.754,"text":"剛剛那個昭偉也再度提醒就是說委員很早就提案進來我們應該事先做研究但是我們不曉得一下子要研究12個完全不同的法案那個對我們來講其實是很大的困擾還有再加上在立法院有通過新的譬如說財劃法財劃法到我們這邊就真的是卡住了我們不曉得到底要不要下售下去所以這個部分要一個冗長的一個討論的過程"},{"start":336.715,"end":361.401,"text":"因為本席不反對要多花時間討論我相信趙偉也不會就是說今天不討論就處理一定也是要讓大家來做討論所以我今天因為答詢時間有限所以我今天是先聚焦在一個題目因為今天很多版本進來對不對所以我們先我大概討論一個副市長的問題待會討論另外一個行政區劃的問題大概就這兩個就好那剩下的東西待會在討論時間來做思考本席的主張我們把在答詢過程表達的清楚一點就是說"},{"start":362.521,"end":381.494,"text":"直轄市之所以為直轄市絕對不是只有因為人口它有服務員的問題比如說新北你要不要特案處理我都覺得很應該四百多萬人的一個城市對不對它要更多人我覺得也可以做思考都市的定位產業的特性都要來做調整所以以現行的制度你只以人口作為一刀切的標準我認為是有限周延可以有別的參數進來"},{"start":382.395,"end":406.246,"text":"那如果說部裡面有部裡面的想法其實我們也願意聽一聽行政端的一些思考跟考量你也許有部的版本院的版本只要它可以增加地方政府的人力讓地方政府推動市政可以更順利我想大家都會樂觀其成好不好所以這部分我希望這個我們的內政部用一個比較開放而且用一個比較支援地方的這樣子的一個角度這樣子才是順應配合這個財劃法的修正啦好 我這個題我們先到此為止第二個我要問"},{"start":408.007,"end":423.947,"text":"因為其他委員也有版本也在地方制度法裡面去提了有關於縣市合併升格的這樣子的一個配套措施啦對不對但是這本席要藉這樣的機會去談另外一個問題就是說我們之所以要在地方制度法去談論這件事情其實是因為我們缺乏一套行政區域化調整的一個遊戲規則對不對"},{"start":426.469,"end":454.905,"text":"這個部長我若沒有記錯當時您應該是立委啊也就是我們現在賴清德總統當初在做行政院院長的時候他其實就有意識到這個問題嘛他當初認為三個法要改善台灣的政治一個叫茶話法要修正一個叫地質法要修正第三個叫行政區劃法要修正當初其實也有提出院版的行政區劃法本期其實是非常期待也非常樂觀因為大到縣市的合併升格小到地方生活圈啊這個行政區有沒有辦法做合理的調整有一個遊戲規則是所有人公認的第一步"},{"start":455.785,"end":475.775,"text":"所以我覺得今天我們現在試圖了透過這個答詢透過待會的法案的討論也許可以把很多問題先收束然後先處理簡單的或者是再經過討論沒關係但我希望在行政區調整的這一部分我們其實比較期待看到的是行政區劃法的這樣子一個草案請問現在行政院有沒有重新提出來的打算"},{"start":476.503,"end":499.018,"text":"我們現在內政部經過這個專家學者我們委託研究之後呢在113年9月24已經把研議的結果送到行政院了那剛剛您所提到地方製度法鄉鎮市的行政區劃法或者是說跟那個行政區劃是否作為公民投票等等這個四項議題都把它列進去所以其實109年在行政區劃的程序法裡面我們就有草案"},{"start":499.438,"end":519.489,"text":"對 但這個草案什麼時候會送出來因為這本席的選區我的選區龜山就是跟一大堆新北的地方做交界嘛我知道他就有生活圈整合的問題那邊的鄉親就很期待說我什麼時候可以有一個討論的平台我什麼時候有一個機會把這個東西好好的去討論本來我們很期待在賴清德總統做行政院長的時候這個東西可以過關我們在地方我那時候做議員就要開始討論了結果不知道為什麼就沒有過"},{"start":520.029,"end":547.899,"text":"但沒關係這本席也有本席的行政區號的草案也已經送到立法院基本上就是大量的參考當初的這個院版那我想請教一下現在的院版跟當初的那個院版有很多的差異嗎還是其實大同小異我剛跟您報告我是113年9月24才送進去的就是最近又做了一次思考對不對對對對但是因為院裡頭還沒告訴我們說它行政院要不要繼續審查那要不要送到這個大院來就你所知這個內容跟過去的院版有沒有差很多"},{"start":548.399,"end":576.156,"text":"差異不大 差異不會太大 可能跟那個牛委員所了解的差不多OK 那我就希望部裡面多爭取啦因為既然今天開始要討論地方制度 這是一件大事多花一點時間討論 本行是贊成的但是不同的事情 也許有不同的法源來解決的時候它也是讓事情簡化的一個方式所以我們希望藉著這樣的答詢 加速一下這個行政計畫法這個院版的這個草案 可以加速的來做處理希望這個部長在你們行政團隊開會的時候 可以積極的來提出來啦"},{"start":576.516,"end":589.318,"text":"好我希望在第三會期的時候我們行政區法的部分也可以進到具體的討論跟主張這樣可以嗎好我們來努力因為我們已經送到行政院去了送到行政院去了好沒關係這本席也來也來也來催促一下好我們一起努力好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:18:33.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:18:40.715000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，時間不長，惜字如金，跟主題無關的我們就少講一點，內政部長有請。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:18:40.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:18:41.316000+08:00","text":"我也沒下去。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:18:41.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:18:43.557000+08:00","text":"辛苦了，部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:18:43.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:18:56.418000+08:00","text":"今天我們討論地方制度法的修法，當然大家比較關注的重點基本上在於副市長的部分，部長，你知道我們行政院下面有幾個政委嗎？9位吧！","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:18:57.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:18:58.659000+08:00","text":"其實還滿多的，對不對？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:18:59.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:19:01.941000+08:00","text":"我們政委的工作主要是做什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:19:01.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:19:02.821000+08:00","text":"跨部會的協調。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:19:02.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:19:03.942000+08:00","text":"對，其實是跨部協調。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:19:05.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:19:07.343000+08:00","text":"以部長的了解，在縣市政府這樣的層級，負責跨局處協調的是誰？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:19:07.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:19:07.584000+08:00","text":"縣市政府？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:19:07.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:19:08.224000+08:00","text":"對，在地方政府的層級，我們中央叫部會……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:19:08.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:19:08.504000+08:00","text":"你說市政府裡面……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:19:08.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:19:09.184000+08:00","text":"對，誰負責跨局處？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:19:09.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:19:10.045000+08:00","text":"一般來講應該是市府的秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:19:21.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:19:21.920000+08:00","text":"叫府一層啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:19:23.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:19:26.542000+08:00","text":"就是市長、副市長、秘書長，大概就是這樣。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:19:26.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:19:28.063000+08:00","text":"秘書長或副秘書長。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:19:28.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:19:34.065000+08:00","text":"其實相對來講，雖然做的事情有點不太一樣，但其實業務都非常的繁重。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:19:35.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:19:40.868000+08:00","text":"我想再請問部長，直轄市之所以為直轄市的原因是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:19:41.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:19:48.851000+08:00","text":"我們從本來的北高，然後合併升格變成六都，最近甚至大家討論新竹要不要合併升格等等，直轄市為什麼要變成直轄市？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:19:50.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:20:02.980000+08:00","text":"它不管是在人口或者是在經濟發展都扮演一個比較龍頭的角色，各有不同的層級，所以我想要變為直轄市，它也需要經過行政程序才能變為直轄市，而不是說變就變。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:20:03.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:20:17.241000+08:00","text":"沒錯，除了人口之外，你剛剛有講到城市的特性，講了幅員、講了產業，講它在地方政治會扮演龍頭的角色，所以其實部長剛剛的回答就表示，人口並不是判斷是否為直轄市的唯一標準，對不對？","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:20:17.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:20:25.992000+08:00","text":"所以今天很多人在談我們要不要酌予增加副市長的人數，本席認為應該用比較開放，而且甚至是用鼓勵的方式來做處理，為什麼呢？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:20:26.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:20:50.055000+08:00","text":"因為除了我剛剛講的，現在中央其實有很多的政務委員可以協調，但地方相對來講，做跨局處的人手是不足的之外，我以桃園來舉例，桃園現在各局處是32個，已經達到了上限，如果是2位副市長的情況之下，其實副市長實務上在地方政治的角度來講，副市長就是一個人督導大概一半的局處，所以一個人就要督導16個局處，其實是非常、非常辛苦的一件事情。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:20:50.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:21:00.804000+08:00","text":"我們希望我們在討論修法的時候，中央可以用一個照顧地方、給予地方更多人才也好，或者是更多人力的角度也好，來提升地方政治的品質。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:21:01.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:21:09.468000+08:00","text":"如果副市長的人數可以增加到3個，每一個人要督導的局處大概就是10個或11個，其實也是非常多啦！","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:21:09.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:21:12.589000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得酌予增加人數是有必要的。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:21:13.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:21:29.121000+08:00","text":"剛剛很多人都提到財劃法，本席完全同意，就是說財劃法修正完畢之後，事權要做調整，這個我覺得本來就是應該這樣，那麼這個事權的調整必然伴隨著地方業務量的增加，我拿到了更多的錢，我當然要做更多的事，對不對？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:21:29.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:21:36.674000+08:00","text":"我們不是說地方只拿錢、不做事，相對來講，當然要花一點時間來做討論，但當事權增加的時候，我們難道不需要多一點的人力嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:21:38.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:22:04.996000+08:00","text":"地方得到的資源增加了、市政的業務增加了，那我在人力上面，尤其是跨局處的業務通常是最困難的，單一局處負責的很單純，這個局處把它處理掉就好，可是跨局處的部分，這個有這個的為難，那個有那個的想法，所以就要由府的高層來介入協調，多一點這樣的人力其實就會改善地方政治的品質，從這樣子的角度來看，部長會不會覺得比較可以接受直轄市的部分副市長律定為3人這樣的想法？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:22:05.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:22:20.288000+08:00","text":"謝謝牛委員的指教，我想委員有提到，其實在做協調工作的不是只有副首長，包括秘書長、副秘書長，其實在縣市地方政府也有所謂的參議或是參事這樣的角色，最主要是在於首長要授權他處理什麼事。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:22:22.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:22:32.655000+08:00","text":"我相信牛委員所在的桃園市也是一樣，2個副市長工作量不會是一半、一半，不會是五十、五十，都會看狀況而定，最重要是要專業。對。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:22:32.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:22:38.619000+08:00","text":"所以副首長的工作只有在處理協調的工作，我覺得未免把這個層級拉低了。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:22:38.619000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T12:22:39.619000+08:00","text":"當然不只啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:22:38.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:22:39.340000+08:00","text":"我今天只是舉一個例子而已。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:22:40.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:23:16.091000+08:00","text":"所以我剛才特別提到，我們在考量的時候，不要單一只用選舉人口，也就是戶籍人口來計算，你還會考慮到很多其他的因素，但你考慮其他因素的時候，我一直在強調，縣市政府在處理自己的行政業務的時候，不會只有一個首長，而是首長下面很多局處要不要跟著改變或改進，這樣在協調的時候才不會互相扞格，像我提到，其實我們也問過臺南市政府，桃園市我們也問了，臺南市政府不認為增設副市長對他們有什麼功能，它要增設的是捷運局，它希望我們幫忙。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:23:17.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:23:17.892000+08:00","text":"它要增設局處，OK啊！","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:23:18.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:23:22.535000+08:00","text":"因為29個局處是它的天花板，它人口未滿200萬，它現在25個，所以當然可以支持啊！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:23:22.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:23:37.505000+08:00","text":"我的意思是說，我們在討論的過程當中，每個縣市政府有它的看法，也不是互相拉扯，所以我們才知道說，其實這個不是只有用選舉人口，但是因為提案的委員是用戶籍人口作為單一的標準的話，這樣……","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:23:38.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:23:41.547000+08:00","text":"是現行的制度是用人口作為單一標準，所以它根本沒辦法再增加……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:23:42.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:23:53.371000+08:00","text":"我知道，剛剛召委也再度提醒，就是說委員很早就提案進來，我們應該事先做研究，但是我們沒辦法一下子研究12個完全不同的法案，那個對我們來講其實是很大的困擾。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:23:53.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:24:02.734000+08:00","text":"還有再加上在立法院有通過新的法案，譬如說財劃法，財劃法到我們這邊真的是卡住了，我們不曉得到底要不要下授下去，所以這個部分要一個冗長的討論過程，我不是……","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:24:04.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:24:07.976000+08:00","text":"本席不反對要多花時間討論……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:24:07.976000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T12:24:08.976000+08:00","text":"我想你很理性，我跟您報告一下……","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:24:08.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:24:13.357000+08:00","text":"我相信召委也不會說今天不討論就處理，一定也是要讓大家來做討論……","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:24:13.357000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T12:24:14.357000+08:00","text":"我知道，但是大家都知道……","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:24:13.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:24:26.300000+08:00","text":"我今天因為答詢時間有限，所以我是先聚焦在一個題目，因為今天有很多版本進來，所以我先討論副市長的問題，待會討論另外一個行政區劃的問題，大概討論這兩個就好，那剩下的東西待會在討論的時間來做思考。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:24:26.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:24:37.146000+08:00","text":"本席主張我們在答詢的過程表達得清楚一點，就是說，直轄市之所以為直轄市，絕對不是只有因為人口，它有幅員的問題，比如新北，你要不要特案處理？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:24:37.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:24:49.494000+08:00","text":"我都覺得很應該，四百多萬人的一個城市，我覺得也可以做思考，都市的定位、產業的特性都要來做調整，所以以現行的制度，只以人口作為一刀切的標準，我認為是有欠周延，可以有別的參數進來。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:24:50.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:25:03.581000+08:00","text":"如果部裡面有部裡面的想法，其實我們也願意聽一聽行政端的一些思考跟考量，你也許有部的版本、院的版本，只要它可以增加地方政府的人力，讓地方政府推動市政可以更順利，我想大家都會樂觀其成。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:25:04.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:25:14.066000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分我希望內政部用一個比較開放而且用比較支援地方的一個角度，這樣子才是順應配合財劃法的修正，這題我們先到此為止。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:25:14.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:25:31.927000+08:00","text":"第二個我要問的是，因為其他委員也有版本，也在地方制度法裡面提了有關於縣市合併升格的配套措施，但是本席要藉這樣的機會去談另外一個問題，我們之所以要在地方制度法去談論這件事情，其實是因為我們缺乏一套行政區域劃分調整的遊戲規則。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:25:34.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:26:02.885000+08:00","text":"部長，我如果沒有記錯，當時你應該是立委，也就是現在賴清德總統當初在做行政院院長的時候，他其實就有意識到這個問題，他當初認為要改善臺灣的政治有3個法，一個叫財劃法要修正，一個叫地制法要修正，第三個叫行政區劃法，當初其實也有提出院版的行政區劃法，本席其實是非常期待，也非常樂觀，因為大到縣市的合併升格，小到地方生活圈這些行政區有沒有辦法做合理的調整，有一個遊戲規則是所有人公認的第一步。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:26:03.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:26:23.755000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得今天我們試圖透過這個答詢、透過待會法案的討論，也許可以把很多問題先收束，然後先處理簡單的，或者是再經過討論，沒關係，但我希望在行政區調整的這一部分，我們其實比較期待看到的是行政區劃法的草案，請問現在這個行政院有沒有重新提出來的打算？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:26:25.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:26:42.855000+08:00","text":"內政部經過委託專家學者研究之後，在113年9月24日已經把研議的結果送到行政院，剛剛您所提到地方制度法、鄉鎮市的行政區劃法，或者是行政區劃是否作為公民投票等等，這4項議題都把它列進去……","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:26:42.855000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T12:26:43.855000+08:00","text":"都可以把它放在行政區劃裡討論……","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:26:43.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:26:46.998000+08:00","text":"其實109年在行政區劃的程序法裡面，我們就有草案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:26:47.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:26:48.859000+08:00","text":"對，但這個草案什麼時候會送出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:26:48.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:26:52.641000+08:00","text":"因為本席的選區龜山就是跟一大堆新北的區域交界。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:26:53.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:26:53.121000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:26:53.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:26:57.463000+08:00","text":"它就有生活圈整合的問題，那邊的鄉親就很期待說，我什麼時候可以有一個討論的平臺？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:26:57.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:27:00.125000+08:00","text":"我什麼時候可以有一個機會把這個東西好好的去討論？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:27:00.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:27:07.489000+08:00","text":"本來我們很期待賴清德總統在做行政院長的時候這個東西就可以過關，我們在地方，其實我那時候做議員時就要開始討論了，結果不知道為什麼就沒有過？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:27:08.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:27:19.693000+08:00","text":"但沒關係，本席的行政區劃法草案也已經送到立法院，基本上就是大量參考當初的院版，我想請教一下，現在的院版跟當初的院版有很多差異嗎？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:27:19.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:27:20.653000+08:00","text":"還是其實大同小異？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:27:20.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:27:22.894000+08:00","text":"我剛剛跟您報告，我是113年9月24日才送進去的。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:27:22.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:27:25.575000+08:00","text":"就是最近又做了一次思考，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:27:25.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:27:33.658000+08:00","text":"對，但是因為院裡頭還沒告訴我們行政院要不要繼續審查、要不要送到大院來……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:27:33.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:27:35.879000+08:00","text":"就你所知，這個內容跟過去的院版有沒有差很多？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:27:36.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:27:40.622000+08:00","text":"差異不大，差異不會太大，可能跟牛委員所了解的差不多，但是……","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:27:40.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:27:42.843000+08:00","text":"OK，那我就希望部裡面多爭取啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:27:43.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:28:08.543000+08:00","text":"因為既然今天開始要討論地方制度，這是一件大事，多花一點時間討論本席是贊成的，但是當不同的事情也許有不同的法源來解決的時候，它也是讓事情簡化的一個方式，所以我們希望藉由這樣的答詢可以讓行政區劃法的院版草案加速來做處理，希望部長在你們行政團隊開會的時候可以積極的提出來，我希望在第三會期的時候，行政區劃法的部分也可以進到具體的討論跟主張，這樣可以嗎？","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:28:08.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:28:11.107000+08:00","text":"好，我們來努力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:28:11.107000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T12:28:12.107000+08:00","text":"積極來反映，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:28:11.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:28:13.191000+08:00","text":"因為我們已經送到行政院去了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-13T12:28:14.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:28:17.157000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，這個本席也來催促一下，我們一起努力，謝謝。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-13T12:28:17.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-13T12:28:17.318000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝牛委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席（牛委員煦庭代）","start":"2025-01-13T12:28:17.818000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-13T12:28:20.960857+08:00","text":"接下來請徐欣瑩召委質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}