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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1693.741,"end":1693.781,"text":"請勿模仿"},{"start":1815.857,"end":1825.612,"text":"請主密報告出席人數報告全體會出席委員11人以主法定人數現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議事錄"},{"start":1827.426,"end":1835.352,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事入時間113年4月29日星期一9時至10時23分,5月1日星期三9時至11時26分,5月2日星期四9時至13時56分,地點紅樓101會議室出席委員鄭天才委員等14人。"},{"start":1850.422,"end":1877.488,"text":"列席委員洪孟楷委員等26人列席人員113年4月29日星期一5月1日星期三經濟部長王美花及相關人員主計總署代表113年5月2日星期四經濟部長王美花國發會副主委高仙貴財政部政事李慶華勞動部發展署組長施淑慧等及相關人員法務部參事林豐文主席楊昭吉委員瓊英"},{"start":1879.388,"end":1891,"text":"4月29日星期一報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定討論事項繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管"},{"start":1892.908,"end":1913.935,"text":"臺灣自來水股份有限公司決議甲經濟部主管一臺灣自來水股份有限公司一業務計劃因依據營業收支生產成本轉投資重大之建設事業及資金運用等向之審查結果隨同調整二營業收支一營業總收入334億2797萬3000元照列營業總支出不含所得稅費用356億9459萬3000元照列"},{"start":1921.217,"end":1949.165,"text":"稅前競選22億6662萬元照列。（三、生產成本隨同營業總支出審查結果調整。（四、轉投資計畫無劣數。（五、重大制建設事業。（原列281億6558萬6千元。（配合113年度中央政府總預算審議結果簡略水利署及所屬第三目水利建設及保育管理第三節水資源開發及維護向下投資大安大甲"},{"start":1950.025,"end":1977.111,"text":"施聯通管工程計劃一億五千萬元本項應隨同修正簡列專案計劃繼續計劃大安大甲施聯通管工程計劃一億五千萬元簡列專案計劃繼續計劃鳥嘴潭人工湖下游自來水供水工程七億八千萬元共計簡列九億三千萬元區域均照列改列為兩百七十二億三千五百五十八萬六千元"},{"start":1978.499,"end":1990.304,"text":"六、資金運用應預計營業收支生產成本盈虧撥補轉投資及重大制建設事業等向日審查結果隨同調整。（七、補辦預算固定資產制建設改良擴充3億7307萬6千元,償還長期債務2億6667萬元均照列。（八、通過決議48項"},{"start":1998.908,"end":2017.286,"text":"五月一號星期三討論四項繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於經濟部主管、經濟作業基金、水資源作業基金、經濟特別收入基金和農發電後端營運基金決議以經濟部主管一、經濟一作業基金"},{"start":2018.89,"end":2028.881,"text":"經濟作業基金一業務計劃應據業務收支轉投資固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等項目審查結果隨同調整二業務收支一業務總收入83億2701萬8千元照列二業務總支出76億5868萬元照列"},{"start":2035.808,"end":2064.35,"text":"三、本期剩餘六億六千八百三十三萬八千元照列。（三、截小空庫淨額二千七百一十八萬六千元照列。（四、轉投資計劃無劣數。（五、固定資產建設改喚擴充十三億九千六百四十五萬三千元照列。（六、國庫增撥金額增撥基金額無劣數。（七、通過決議二十八項。（二、作業基金水資源作業基金一、業務計劃因應業務收支轉投資固定資產建設改喚擴充及資金運用等項之審查。"},{"start":2065.391,"end":2081.4,"text":"結果隨同調整二、業務收支一、業務總收入原列91億1409萬8千元正列業務收入中銷貨收入向下土石銷貨收入2000萬元局均照列改列為91億3409萬8千元二、業務總支出110億0279萬6千元照列本期短處原列18億8869萬"},{"start":2093.146,"end":2107.021,"text":"八千元、減劣兩千萬元、改劣為十八億六千八百六十九萬八千元、三節繳供戶金額無劣數、四轉投資計劃無劣數、五固定資產建設改良擴充十三億九千一百二十六萬四千元照列。"},{"start":2108.427,"end":2127.277,"text":"六、國庫增撥基金額原列22億1900萬元（配合113年度中央政府總預算審議結果（檢列經濟部第11項非營業特種基金第三節水資源作業基金向下（設備及投資投資8,432萬2千元（本項因隨同修正檢列8,432萬2千元（改列額21億3,467萬8千元（其通過決議15項三、特別收入基金經濟"},{"start":2137.485,"end":2138.414,"text":"特別收入基金"},{"start":2139.195,"end":2159.427,"text":"一、業務計劃應據基金來源與用途審查結果隨同調整二、基金來源用途局移處一、基金來源原列254億2862萬元增列推廣貿易基金之徵收及依法分配收入推廣貿易服務費收入500萬元區域均照列為254億3362萬元二、基金用途原列225億3441萬4千元減列推廣貿易基金之"},{"start":2168.733,"end":2179.749,"text":"貿易推廣工作計畫會費、捐費、捐助、補助、分攤、照護、救濟與交流活動費向下捐助、補助與獎助一千萬元,區域均照例改列為225億2441萬4千元"},{"start":2184.161,"end":2189.006,"text":"本期剩餘原列28億9千4百20萬6千元增列1500萬元改列為29億09百20萬元6千元三、結繳公庫劣數四、通貨決議53項四、特別收入基金核能發電後端營運基金因業務計劃因依據基金來源"},{"start":2201.72,"end":2209.089,"text":"與用途審查結果隨同調整二、基金來源用途及餘處一、基金來源267億7173萬2千元照列二、基金用途64億4931萬7千元照列三、本期剩餘203億2241萬5千元照列"},{"start":2218.621,"end":2230.989,"text":"三、結繳供戶劣數四、通俄決議五項五、本會負責審查之113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部份及非營業部份均力審查完略領去審查報告提報財政委員會會診經濟委員會審查結果須交由黨團協商院會討論時由楊昭紀委窮運出席說明五月二號星期四討論四項審查一"},{"start":2241.756,"end":2245.079,"text":"行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行政行"},{"start":2265.518,"end":2292.191,"text":"登記發言委員．除不在場者外．其預計與發言完畢．詢答結束委員陳超明及牛許廷．首期書面執行列入記錄刊登公報．書面執行案未及答覆部分．請向二單位於週內以書面答覆並複製本會．二本院委員柯之恩等17人．三委員賴世保等19人．四委員楊求英等16人．分別擬具《中小企業發展條例》第36條之二條文修正草案案。．五委員楊求英等16人．"},{"start":2293.7,"end":2307.672,"text":"女巨中小企業發展條例徵定第36條之四條文草案案。（六本院臺灣民眾黨團女巨中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案案。（七國民黨團女巨中小企業發展條例第36條之二條文修正草案案。（"},{"start":2308.769,"end":2332.254,"text":"委員張志倫等19人、9、委員王世堅等16人分別擬具中央企業發展條例第35條、第36條之二及第四條條文修正草案案。（10、委員郭國文等19人擬具中央企業發展條例第36條之二條文修正草案案。（11、委員本院委員邱毅寅等29人擬具中央企業發展條例部分條文修正草案案。（決議"},{"start":2333.914,"end":2356.711,"text":"一、第一條條文遭臺灣民眾黨團提案通過。二、第二條條文遭行政院提案及委員邱毅寅等人提案通過。三、臺灣民眾黨團所提第七條之一條文不予增訂。四、第三十五條條文遭行政院提案通過。五、第三十六條之二條文所有提案予委員邱毅寅等人、委員陳廷飛、關乎何新淳等人及委員楊求英、關乎賴世寶等人。"},{"start":2357.552,"end":2383.645,"text":"分別所提修正動議均保留送用會處理。六、第36條之三條文照行政院提案及委員邱毅英等人提案通過。七、委員楊瓊英等人及臺灣民眾黨團分別所提第36條之四條文均保留送用會處理。八、第39條條文照行政院提案及委員邱毅英等人提案通過。九、第40條條文照行政院提案通過。十、併案審查完具理據審查報告提報用會條例需交由黨團協商並推起"},{"start":2385.886,"end":2411.171,"text":"楊昭吉文求於院會討論時做補充說明。）三會宣讀完畢。好,由於現場委員不足3人,我們議事錄就暫不處理,現在繼續進行討論事項,請一併宣讀。一、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）農業部函為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢証一,"},{"start":2413.331,"end":2416.495,"text":"二、審查本院委員陳冠廷等30人擬具《農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2436.781,"end":2437.725,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2444.09,"end":2445.611,"text":"首先我們先請陳冠廷委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2479.854,"end":2503.486,"text":"好謝謝主席跟各位我們立法院的同仁那就農產品市場交易法第35條條文修正案進行這一個提案說明那在網路時代我想社群媒體的影響力傳遞的訊息非常快速那包含這一些謠言或者是惡意的這一些訊息那如果要散播影響農產品價格的謠言或者是不實訊息的時候那一定會造成非常大的恐慌"},{"start":2504.306,"end":2521.316,"text":"那這樣子當然會造成他的市場價格快速波動那我們現在的農產品市場交易法第六條是由禁止壟斷操縱價格或者是故意變更市場以謀取不正當利益但是這個第35條的條文來看違反第六條只會被罰6萬元至30萬元"},{"start":2522.737,"end":2539.031,"text":"那對於有意操縱價格的來說這樣的處罰過於輕微根本沒有辦法有效的嚇阻這樣子的違法行為所以我們是主張犯行所得的必須如果犯行所得高於罰則的話那當然就是更多人會挺而走險所以我們希望"},{"start":2539.431,"end":2544.378,"text":"﹚立法院第11屆第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會"},{"start":2557.094,"end":2577.264,"text":"來去依照他違反情節的嚴重程度跟農產品受影響的程度來進行查法那我們希望說透過罰款的提高能夠有效的遏止壟斷操縱價格散播不實訊息的不法行為那確保農產品市場的公平交易創造一個更健康完善的農品交易市場說明到此謝謝"},{"start":2582.861,"end":2591.056,"text":"好,我們謝謝陳冠廷委員那接下來我們請陳俊基部長就預算結凍等3案以及委員所提版本合併報告陳部長"},{"start":2603.202,"end":2629.474,"text":"主席還有我們各位委員各位女士各位先生大家早那今天應邀到大院經濟委員會就本部主管的113年度預算凍結案提出報告那首先還是感謝所有的委員過去長期對我們農業部門相關農業的一些支持讓我們整個農業能夠持續的向前進步那這一次大院審議本部113年度預算裡面總共"},{"start":2630.154,"end":2643.904,"text":"有3件。本部已凝聚相關書面資料,送大院在案。請各位參討。以下僅就整個凍結案當初委員所關切的議題提出一些說明"},{"start":2646.55,"end":2654.68,"text":"整個凍結案部分三案都是屬於我們農業部部本部本身的一個凍結那這凍結案裡面總計凍結了兩千萬包括農業管理跟農業發展"},{"start":2660.745,"end":2677.767,"text":"那在凍結案的過程中委員所關切的這些議題我們做以下的說明那第一部分是針對農業及農地資源盤查的作業那委員當時針對我們的整個盤查作業的結果不一定與當年度的實際成果是一致的"},{"start":2678.268,"end":2700.449,"text":"那我們內部也曾經做了蠻詳細的一個討論那未來會透過整個建立標準作業流程的文件還有加速取得相關部會的一些資訊做即時的一個公開那對於上開的這些公開的資訊也會載明到相關資料擷取的時間以避免就是閱讀者的一個誤會"},{"start":2702.09,"end":2725.619,"text":"二、針對廢棄物處理經濟管理及監管的制度本部針對整個畜牧的廢棄物我們非常重視特別是在我們整個的一個進行循環的部分針對廢棄物的部分事實上我們在113年到116年已經提了相關的一個計畫包括畜牧廢棄物的經濟管理跟它的資源加值的一個計畫"},{"start":2726.519,"end":2737.056,"text":"那未來我想我們會針對續廠端的這些節水然後包括蓄分尿的早期發電跟污水的一個排放做完整的一個控管"},{"start":2737.912,"end":2756.09,"text":"那第三個部分是針對因應貿易自由化全面推動養牛產業升級的一個轉型那我想大家都知道臺牛的這些自由貿易協定未來就是自紐西蘭進口的牛奶會關稅會降到零那事實上農業部門持續在跟弱農"},{"start":2757.531,"end":2783.327,"text":"農農做相關的一個討論那同時我們也凝聚了整個養牛產業全面升級的一個轉型計畫暴行政院在案那在整個計畫裡面我想我們有從牧場端一直到我們怎麼樣建立我們國產優質的牛奶端到後續的這些輔導端我們也做了完整的一個策略的一個措施那也與我們相關的農農產業取得的一個共識那未來我想我們會針對這個計畫去落實去執行"},{"start":2788.223,"end":2806.733,"text":"第四個部分是針對怎麼樣強化續產會的一個功能跟運作那我想續產會是根據畜牧法依法成立的那他也協助我們整個畜牧產業的一個相關的一個執行跟推動那不可會員在整個執行的推動中有一些可以在精進的地方"},{"start":2807.313,"end":2821.118,"text":"所以我想我們未來會針對整個的一個續展會的一個報告組織運作他的一個審核機制去監討他的管理作業流程並訂定相關的SOP來改進他過往的一些缺失更提高他的一個行政效率"},{"start":2823.905,"end":2853.365,"text":"在當時凍結案的時候我想也很多委員針對怎麼樣去精進我們國內的一個雞蛋產銷因應的一個措施那我想在去年我們在做雞蛋專案進口的時候除了像國外進口雞蛋以外我們也同步針對國內的家蛋機產業的一個產業鏈做積極性的一個付出從總機、廚機、蛋中機到蛋機我們不斷的去強化它的一個老母雞的一個淘汰"},{"start":2854.205,"end":2854.525,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":2869.654,"end":2894.95,"text":"延續免徵百分之五的營業稅來降低飼料成本同時我們在整個的一個雞蛋的生產鏈中我們也積極的導入相關的一個冷鏈的計畫特別到洗選場的部分我們的希望說在洗選的過程中在整個蛋機生產以後一直到洗選的過程中能夠持續的進行一個冷鏈的處理來達到一個保持蛋品的一個品質"},{"start":2895.811,"end":2897.413,"text":"．立法院第11屆第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會"},{"start":2917.256,"end":2932.606,"text":"相關的這些凍結案裡面都是我們在施政計畫裡面配合國家政策及農業發展來推動的計畫因為實際業務的需要也敬請我們委員支持會議支持解凍來以利我們本部競輸的這樣相關的計畫來持續的推動來達到照顧農民發展永續農業的一個目標"},{"start":2938.936,"end":2966.962,"text":"那第二個部分是今天陳委員所提的農產品市場交易法的第三十五條的一個修正那本部在這邊也表達相關的一些意見那根據農產品市場交易法第三十五條他原來條文是只要違反相關的第六條的第一項第十四條第一項的部分是可以處六萬到三十萬的一個划環那如果違反第六條第二項的話"},{"start":2968.042,"end":2991.528,"text":"特別是足以產生農產品運銷秩序者可以處罰六萬元以上三十五萬元的罰罰那這樣的一個罰罰本身那委員所提的版本是提高將相關的這個處罰由原來的六萬到三十萬提高到六萬到三千萬那或者是六萬到一千萬的一個罰款那整個的一個條文其實是"},{"start":2992.768,"end":2992.788,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":3013.863,"end":3035.83,"text":"謝謝陳部長的報告那公平交易委員會的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報討論事項兩岸合併詢答分開處理委員質詢前原力做以下幾點的宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員4分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘我們10點截止發言登記首先請登記第一位陳廷飛委員發言"},{"start":3045.044,"end":3066.3,"text":"謝謝主席我們請部長來請陳部長委員長部長早部長這是我昨天收到的一張明信片這一張明信片是一位男大副校"},{"start":3068.12,"end":3094.032,"text":"六年級的學生寫給我的小學六年級喔你知道它裡面寫什麼我唸給你聽喔親愛的委員你好我是南大副小六甲學生經過班級的乳牛專題課程之後得知2025年紐西蘭液態乳進口恐嚴重影響我國弱農業請您支持修法必須要採取行動"},{"start":3096.123,"end":3124.373,"text":"將我們的進口乳能夠更名為長效乳以保障我國落農生計小學六年級部長你有沒有很感動小學六年級他會關注這個議題會關注我們農業的發展那我們呢我們動作會不會太慢了我們動作會不會太慢了"},{"start":3125.171,"end":3154.31,"text":"我跟你們說明就是有關於長效乳的部分那依據現在的相關的一個規定並沒有長效乳的規定但是我們經過了跟業者的研議以後我們正式把這些相關的製程之下能夠列為長效乳的這個建議已經具體就是建請相關的衛福部去做它相關的制定因為整個制定長效乳的一個標定是由衛福部主導的那農業部已經完成了這樣的一個動作把長效乳的相關的規範提供給衛福部"},{"start":3155.431,"end":3166.221,"text":"所以你們把相關資料建議都給衛福部了好多久多久可以研擬出來這是2025喔2025要面對的喔現在已經是2024已經是五月中下旬"},{"start":3172.128,"end":3172.148,"text":"部長"},{"start":3191.055,"end":3214.637,"text":"今天民眾要有知的權利這是最根本的他要去實質分別什麼是進口什麼是國內自己生產的你要很清楚讓他了解連一個小學生都知道你一個小學生我看到這張明信片我好感動但我覺得我們太慢"},{"start":3216.038,"end":3216.198,"text":"瞭解"},{"start":3232.145,"end":3245.858,"text":"如果他是落農產地的學生你說哇可能他的爸爸媽媽自己本身是從事這樣的行業是他會擔心不是喔他這一間學校是在我們的市區並不是落農的學區"},{"start":3248.402,"end":3262.275,"text":"所以表示我們不斷的在提醒這樣的議題它是有效果的慢慢的大家會關注那關注之後大家就藉著標示去了解我該怎麼選擇"},{"start":3264.347,"end":3291.429,"text":"這是一件好事而不是像部長所說的它不是唯一可是它卻是最重要的那一環那我跟委員說明像國產品牛奶的標示我們也積極的在推動包括我們現在的標章有明確的標示台灣乳台灣的鮮乳所以未來就是你不可以用牛奶去混進口乳你要貼這個標籤特別是這個標籤貼上去以後就能夠去證明是國產的台灣乳"},{"start":3293.19,"end":3316.047,"text":"這個部分我們已經在做了我知道我們有在做是時間點呢時間點呢你4月1號才提給衛福部然後你們現在所做的標示你們有在做時間呢請給我們時間而且你們包括要給落農的補助要所謂的淘汰乳牛的部分"},{"start":3317.662,"end":3341.499,"text":"要溯及既往這個部分也還沒有看到有實質的一個進展我跟委員報告就是我們針對洛榮的整個養牛產業的一個計畫我們已經抱怨那整個經費達到29億那相對的只要行政院合定了以後那我想就是還沒合定嘛就是還沒合定嘛還沒合定就是空的嘛"},{"start":3342.557,"end":3363.155,"text":"多久?我再次強調2025我們就要面對這一波衝擊了現在已經是五月中了我們還在等,我不知道在等什麼來,那個部長我要再請教一下我跟你討論的是我們在農漁、農漁災損的認定的SOP"},{"start":3368.871,"end":3386.462,"text":"我們過去其實都是有地方來做認定但是現在因為我們農業部從陳其中部長到你我們都用最快速的從中央直接要求地方還有相關的單位從農糧署到農改廠去做一些核定"},{"start":3387.691,"end":3406.877,"text":"大家就忘記了原來地方政府要付出他相對的責任我就拿這一次芒果的災損認定我3月20號就已經跟部長反映了這個都有通年紀錄的啦我直接就跟部長反映甚至也做了很多的槌尋"},{"start":3408.84,"end":3424.905,"text":"好,3月20號向部長反映,部長有說因為當時候包括龍眼包括荔枝芒果他們的灰基本上都沒有像之前這樣所以當時候就是荔枝跟龍眼我們先合訂了"},{"start":3425.919,"end":3454.699,"text":"對不對然後芒果因為他比較晚一點所以大概要確認是在4月4月下旬對當時候你說4月中旬所以我在4月8號我就安排了經濟委員會南下會刊對不對所以部長您也當場決意說在4月中下旬要開始要求地方政府還有我們中央來協助做茶菇的動作對不對是"},{"start":3456.5,"end":3482.553,"text":"五月初臺南市政府完成調查在這段時間地方農民就很擔心到底有沒有可是當時候根本市政府也都慢半拍才開始進行所謂的查估所以當五月初完成調查之後我們五月七號在昨天晚上我們就馬上公告了今天就開始申請"},{"start":3483.891,"end":3509.65,"text":"做現金救助的部分對不對對好我現在跟你討論的是今天從3月20號我跟部長反映為什麼大家會擔心確實結論也是有現金救助也確實有災損對不對是那經驗值嘛3月20號以前所有的農民跟我們反映的一看一個經營條費總控就是今年很差"},{"start":3513.663,"end":3540.413,"text":"但是我們當時候就說我們還要等這時間這個過程其實農民人心惶惶市政府又沒有啟動只有聽到我們中央不斷的說我們要等四月中旬四月下旬地方都不動所以這所謂的一個災損的部分我覺得我們要做一個SOP的一個所謂認定標準的一個處理權責在哪裡"},{"start":3543.612,"end":3564.158,"text":"不要讓農民我們現在中央很盡責任結果地方好像就在等中央那農民呢農民就是向地方中央這樣子看你看他看你看他3月20號就跟你反映這件事了對不對經過了多久"},{"start":3567.662,"end":3584.731,"text":"所以部長我覺得這個所謂災損認定的部分勢必不論是農業或漁業都應該要訂出一個標準地方政府要有責任啦!不能像現在那樣啦!有用做路財等於做路照!"},{"start":3587.446,"end":3615.513,"text":"陳委員那個時間...對是不是部長退後我想謝謝委員的一個建議那事實上我們現在有已經有一個SOB那後續我想我們會跟各地方政府更做更積極的一個互動他要趕快啟動嘛我想我們會遷就這部分我們會遷就這部分那我們的審查我想也根據當初跟委員的反應我們也是照...照不來啦我們還是照相關的情況而且經過諮問會跟確認的以後可以知道地方農民等多久"},{"start":3617.027,"end":3632.485,"text":"陳委員時間好好謝謝謝謝陳庭菲委員接下來我們請楊瓊英委員發言謝謝主席本席想邀請部長來請陳部長"},{"start":3640.362,"end":3646.067,"text":"副部長,首先恭喜你繼續農任,讓我們一起為農業部來,農政來加油,讓我們的農民有更好的生活。那我們繼續討論的是蛋,上一次本席跟我們經濟委員會"},{"start":3660.2,"end":3688.311,"text":"其他委員也到現場我們還有蘇清泉委員讓我們一起到現場去看那大家社會大眾都非常的希望能夠了解真正在我們這一次我們的進口彈然後又銷毀那到底你總結的答案這一次的進口彈跟銷毀那請說明到底我們花了人民的納稅錢多少錢"},{"start":3690.479,"end":3705.514,"text":"我想分兩個部分這個烏龍事件請說明我想第一個還是要先說明一下當初進口當然有他的政策目的也達到了政策但是在執行的過程中沒有那個政策目的達到然後在整個過程當中是還要我們拿納稅人的錢去銷毀那些進口有問題的蛋你把我們人民當傻子啊"},{"start":3713.081,"end":3714.402,"text":"這是我們辛辛苦苦的納稅錢還要讓我們排隊去買雞蛋請再說明你告訴我總額補助總共多少錢我們整個補助在今年度是8.2億左右8.2億左右總共進口了多少個蛋"},{"start":3732.406,"end":3741.612,"text":"一億五千八百多萬顆一億五千八百多萬顆那請教銷毀了多少五千五百八十萬顆五千五百八十萬顆銷毀為什麼我想當初我們就在缺啊就在缺啊為什麼還進那個有問題的蛋啊好銷毀了五千五百八十萬顆請問這個五千五百八十萬顆光光你又送到冷鏈系統護二十度我們多少錢"},{"start":3759.865,"end":3783.761,"text":"到你消委前總共花了多少錢?整個的一個過期雞蛋去做堆肥整個的費用是四億七千多萬那其中三億七千萬左右是蛋款的部分五千萬左右是倉儲費的部分然後四千萬左右是相關的這些運輸跟它的一個處理的費用運輸跟處理費用嗎?所以平平白白"},{"start":3785.682,"end":3808.22,"text":"補助進口的8.2億光光五千多萬顆的蛋我們又要總共多少啊你剛才講的總共多少四億七千多萬四億七千多萬如果拿給全國的人民你看我們有多少的福利我們可以建設多少拿給我們的營養午餐的孩子我們可以協助他們多少為什麼會導致這樣子"},{"start":3811.98,"end":3813.321,"text":"這樣子的說法本席不予認同你的結果論部長"},{"start":3838.158,"end":3857.564,"text":"你的結果論當你要進口多少雞蛋的時候你在你整個產銷的資訊裡頭你會非常清楚我們一個月國內要多少需要多少個雞蛋對不對你的產有多少你的銷有多少除非除非我本期說的烏龍事件其中有貓咪你的產銷資訊由農業部委託給養雞協會來做"},{"start":3867.148,"end":3893.67,"text":"你如果很清清楚楚的會很清楚你的需求你現在只歸屁於因為大家對進口蛋有疑慮所以就才導致你這樣的原因不可以這麼說所以本席要再跟你討論一個結果也就是我們光光這一個錯誤的政策我們補助是8.2億我們的納稅錢"},{"start":3895.692,"end":3897.973,"text":"我們總共進口了一億五千多顆雞蛋但是我們有五千五百八十幾萬顆的雞蛋是銷毀的在這個銷毀當中我們還要付出四億七慘痛的代價"},{"start":3912.748,"end":3939.383,"text":"除了你忍戀五千多萬你的交通作業也要將近五千多萬人民情何以堪部長人民情何以堪這個數字告訴給社會大眾我們上次也說要公佈在你們的網站你們公佈了沒有公佈了人民的感受每一個打到無處說為什麼我們沒有蛋我們還要付錢去消為這些蛋"},{"start":3940.427,"end":3953.015,"text":"政府要不要檢討政府要不要檢討我想我們已經很深刻的檢討整個的一個執行的過程還有人質疑你這個臭蛋為什麼還要去放在花了五千萬的冷鏈還要護二十度"},{"start":3954.96,"end":3960.385,"text":"所以你光光在經濟委員會我們一直追一直追你已經達成錯誤的政策了錯誤的軌道要怎麼樣把它縮短對不對"},{"start":3979.338,"end":3997.233,"text":"還好你最後部長你加強監督把你原本要留到6月底才要完成的到什麼時候完成4月19號就完成4月19號對不對這個其中差了兩個半月如果我們不對你這兩個半月又要還我們一以上的納稅錢"},{"start":4000.615,"end":4028.713,"text":"所以部長我們要將心比心啊這些都是人民的納稅錢好不好我們討論你現在雞蛋的產銷是委由協會來做那你認為到目前為止你們調查全國1800處的養雞場的產銷狀況本席具體建議你如果只有打電話去問你還是會重蹈覆轍又是烏龍事件又是政策錯誤"},{"start":4031.216,"end":4041.75,"text":"需求跟工區跟時間點、timing都不對讓我們平白浪費了8億多的錢再加上4億期總共多少"},{"start":4043.089,"end":4044.21,"text":"五千五百多萬顆"},{"start":4069.861,"end":4078.348,"text":"的臭蛋所以我們一個答案也就是觀光這個政策要浪費人民十億的錢"},{"start":4079.446,"end":4098.059,"text":"對不對?你們花出去的10億的錢?不是這樣子補助多少錢?我想我們在開始補助當初補助多少錢?我們整個去年度補助8.2億那今年度還沒有,他們續展會還沒申請預估大概1.多億所以我說大概是10億但是這10億裡面包括你現在講的4.7億對不對?"},{"start":4101.961,"end":4108.364,"text":"所以夯不啷噹包括起來就是10億嘛 對不對對啊 剛剛本期告訴你10億啊所以這10億到還沒有算錢的部分總共你預估大概要費用10億包括了補助包括了這個5580幾萬顆的臭蛋還有你一些行政費用還沒有理清楚還沒有來申請"},{"start":4132.755,"end":4150.789,"text":"該當給人家要給人家但是本席還是說這10億尤其這4億7是人民非常冤枉的錢政府要給民眾道歉4億7的稅金我想部長你是非常資深的事務官你也很難過還好是你追了這兩個半月我們至少再減一億的錢"},{"start":4159.332,"end":4181.765,"text":"不然我還要再浪費1億的錢痛定思痛本期具體建議你針對於這1800處你們應該要針對於入儲數量還有你養殖登記以及你屠宰的這個數量給他交叉比對你的數字才會更正確同不同意我非常同意我們已經非常同意趕快去做會"},{"start":4183.186,"end":4183.446,"text":"最後一個議題再給我一分鐘就好"},{"start":4202.228,"end":4220.031,"text":"也就是現在農業用的塑膠膜我們所謂的農膜請部長解決我們農民的問題因為我們種的水果這一些都需要用但是你們也有說推動廢棄農膜回收對不對成效怎麼樣"},{"start":4220.452,"end":4220.952,"text":"政府需要協助一個SOP流程來協助民眾"},{"start":4239.068,"end":4239.108,"text":"主席"},{"start":4259.434,"end":4282.186,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員來部長這個跟這個農業廢棄物有相關的這些作為是不是也能夠給經濟委員會的每位委員給大家一份報告好不好好謝謝好接下來我們請鄭正前委員發言我還是要懇請各位委員要掌握一下時間謝謝主席我想請一下陳部長來請陳部長"},{"start":4290.674,"end":4308.976,"text":"部長好因為你是少數橫跨520都繼續在這個位置上面的部長那其實因為今天的解凍案當中的時候其實有一個農業管理虛募管理部分有一個一千萬的部分那其中這部分其實跟去年的雞蛋之亂其實有一些關係"},{"start":4310.337,"end":4332.467,"text":"楊瓊怡我問得非常的清楚也非常的深入所以有關於這部分我可能就不會再重複問可是我想特別提到一個點因為你剛剛提到說這樣子的一個政策大概總共要花掉十億嘛對不對那我想說這是去年的雞蛋之亂今年"},{"start":4334.268,"end":4356.085,"text":"臺灣雞蛋的供需狀況是不是還會出現缺口需要從國外進口的狀態我想以我們現在目前的評估是不會的因為在去年我們把整個的一個雞蛋的產業鏈重組了以後那現在的蛋中雞跟蛋精它的生產效率也提高了然後每日蛋的產能也提高了所以我們預估整個的一個今年"},{"start":4356.866,"end":4373.853,"text":"部長在這邊很正式就是公開的表示今年去台灣不會出現缺彈的狀態不會再出現去年這樣的一個雞蛋之亂嘛對不對好那剛剛的時候因為你有回應這個陽泉委員特別提到說4月19號的時候把之前數的過期彈全部都銷毀掉了嘛對不對"},{"start":4376.494,"end":4394.476,"text":"那我想問一下,因為你剛剛也回答得非常大聲你就講說這個蛋銷毀了之後那因為我記得在4月17號考察的時候有特別押了一個時間就是4月30號之前的時候所有的影片必須要上架請問這個部分我們做到了嗎?"},{"start":4395.097,"end":4419.906,"text":"我想我們的影片齁因為整個影片包括我們每一批的影片齁那個上架的那個檔案非常大所以我們把相關的三個部分一個是在出庫的部分一個在運輸的部分一個是在做堆肥的部分的影片我們有上架那如果任何有有希望在看其他日期的部分齁可以來申請因為我們不可能所有"},{"start":4420.686,"end":4420.906,"text":"主席"},{"start":4442.319,"end":4442.479,"text":"農業部委員"},{"start":4458.084,"end":4478.642,"text":"能夠的時候某一個部分能夠把最新的版本上來如果說你們覺得檔案太大不要把所有的過程上來我也接受這個部分可是我希望最新的東西能夠很清楚然後讓民眾看到整個的一個過程因為我們看到這過程當中沒有聲音然後沒有相關的一個盤點的一個細節好不好"},{"start":4480.785,"end":4492.743,"text":"我跟委員說明一下就是我們整個錄影沒有錄音我們是用密錄器的方式那我也同意這個銷毀是用密錄器的方式錄啊為什麼要用密錄器的方式錄"},{"start":4494.264,"end":4521.439,"text":"因為他是一個監督因為我們這個監督不能夠公開的方式用密錄器錄不是我們是掛在胸前這樣錄的方式啦那也許用詞可能不是那麼恰當但是每一個人都知道正在錄影但是我們並沒有錄音這第一點第二點就是說我們會選一個就是因為都有第三方的要求包括地方政府的衛生局啊或者是國稅局都會去參加這樣的一個一個銷毀的動作"},{"start":4522.62,"end":4523.38,"text":"所以我們會選擇比較影響的部分"},{"start":4551.347,"end":4565.08,"text":"針對我們整個動物傳染病防治條例當中的時候我們目前如何界定網際網路內容如果涉及境外因施檢義務我們怎麼去判斷這個部分部長"},{"start":4565.58,"end":4582.393,"text":"我想在網站的部分我們會去監控相關的網站那第一個就是網站如果有疑似使用中國的這些圖片的時候那我們第一個就會先懷疑只要疑似就要求下架嗎這樣子因為我們是根據我們動物傳人"},{"start":4583.494,"end":4584.374,"text":"請問這個部分的時候你們認為要不要下架?"},{"start":4614.76,"end":4636.505,"text":"因為這個是食品我們強調是跟動植物防疫檢疫有關的所以它本身像你說雞蛋或其他的跟動物的製品有關的我們才會處理所以這個東西你不處理的這個東西不處理是不是所以是不會下架嘛不處理就不會下架的意思啊沒有我不知道這個裡面的東西是什麼"},{"start":4639.93,"end":4645.756,"text":"寵物的凍乾和食品你就看這兩個嘛部長你簡單回應我一下好不好這個東西你覺得要怎麼處理?這個要不要下架?"},{"start":4659.155,"end":4670.94,"text":"這個來源人家就很清楚提供所有的資料告訴你來源是台灣的結果你們要求人家下架就看這圖感覺很像就叫人家下架部長我再看下一個齁這個左邊是台灣的右邊是淘寶的照片完全一樣你就要不要下架好部長你回答不出來我再往下看"},{"start":4686.395,"end":4713.655,"text":"這個是左邊是台灣的右邊是大陸的這個要不要下架照片完全一樣欸不是 我要跟委員說明齁不是中國的產品都不能進來第一個就是說它符合就是說某些產品是禁止由大陸中國進口的部分理解 所以部長所以我要你直接做這樣子判斷因為你們這邊在做處理的時候就說圖片相似就要求人家下架完全沒有顧慮到廠商"},{"start":4715.467,"end":4737.849,"text":"生存多麼的不容易要做生意你以為很容易嗎結果我舉這三個案子當中的時候第一個案子就是你們看到圖片相似疑似就要求人家直接下架人家提出當天提出證明他從台灣採購東西你們完全不認喔沒有沒有我跟委員說你不是這樣子齁他們提出來以後我們要去查"},{"start":4738.87,"end":4760.338,"text":"是不是這樣子的那是不是要查被我確定才叫人家下架你們是第一時間就叫人家下架部長你知道他們這怎麼處理嗎所以我在想說現在農業部這麼大防檢局這麼大只要他覺得儀式圖片類似就要求下架欸那我現在如果是廠商惡性競爭的時候我覺得好你再看下面齁"},{"start":4762.591,"end":4784.96,"text":"再看下面一張左邊這邊是台灣知名品牌的被人家用同樣的照片放在大陸的網站上面他是不是相似他是完全一樣喔如果這樣子的時候我們直接來你們這邊檢舉你們是不是叫他們一定要下架我要跟委員說明喔不是大陸的網站就叫做中國的東西"},{"start":4785.76,"end":4786.34,"text":"瞭解謝謝以上"},{"start":4803.847,"end":4804.828,"text":"接下來請賴瑞榮委員發言"},{"start":4835.997,"end":4860.695,"text":"好,謝主席,請陳部長來,請陳部長部長部長辛苦了部長,蛋的事情我還是要提一下啦最早的原因還是起源於當時的禽流感嘛所以導致了當時說台灣的蛋的問題那甚至很多買不到蛋那甚至蛋的價格高漲那最後甚至有很多在因為整個"},{"start":4861.636,"end":4861.896,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":4880.126,"end":4880.867,"text":"）二、審查本院委員）"},{"start":4900.225,"end":4928.655,"text":"這個當然是可以去檢討但是不要去模糊掉原來的政策那個目的原先最早最早的政策目的是要解決掉當時禽流感後導致的這種甚至一種已經當時媒體整個報導一幅好像就恐慌一樣的然後大家在搶蛋然後價格一直飆漲然後買不到蛋所以已經形成一個很嚴重的一個社會上的所以政府當然有責任要去穩定住那花一些經費來穩定住這本來就是一件重要的事情所以我覺得部長還是要把這些事實不斷的"},{"start":4930.196,"end":4955.931,"text":"陳講清楚非常謝謝委員就是我一直一直強調就是說當初的進口雞蛋有他的背後必須要去穩定當下的一些雞蛋的一個穩定的供應的量那後續因為雞蛋的一個庫存本身我們都算過了每一天大概每一個人多少事實上我們進口的雞蛋的量大概只有大概一個禮拜到兩個禮拜的份對所以他本身不是說我們進口的超到的量去處理但後續因為"},{"start":4956.511,"end":4975.851,"text":"整個進口雞蛋被民眾產生因為錯誤的報導造成民眾的餘力以後那個才開始去累積那第二個部分就是我們也深刻的檢討就是在整個的一個處理過程中我們的續產會包括我們農業部的督導的確有很多改善的空間那這個部分我想我們也會更精進的去處理"},{"start":4976.471,"end":5005.111,"text":"我想不論哪一黨執政都會遇到類似這樣的問題那應該是要去讓這個農業部能夠用專業的方式處理那如果又是這種攻擊式的話那未來會讓所有遇到這樣的事情在發生的時候更難去做出一個正確的決定我認為那個絕對不是台灣的好事以此來跟農業部來互勉再來我請教一下今天其實有要談到這個農產品交易的部分我先問一下就是說這幾年來其實常發生很多"},{"start":5006.291,"end":5030.791,"text":"近外的一些假消息啦特別是一些媒體的報導的時候去講到包括這個臺美的豬肉有瘦肉精的問題甚至點名到新東陽黑橋牌等等這些的那一段時間就會出來一次所以其實這樣的問題其實要去做一些遏止啦就是從境外的一些媒體不斷進來去干擾到我們的豬肉的安全甚至豬肉的一些市場的部分這個我認為其實應該要去正視這個問題"},{"start":5031.992,"end":5039.918,"text":"那我再問一下部長這三年來我們影響農產品的交易價格這些謠言跟不實訊息有沒有開罰過?"},{"start":5041.493,"end":5042.413,"text":"部長,為什麼沒有開發?部長,不只"},{"start":5069.284,"end":5069.684,"text":"（二、審查本院委員"},{"start":5100.024,"end":5113.389,"text":"這個開罰不出來的話你提高再多也沒有用啊對所以我想有效的對這些嚇阻開罰的目的要去嚇阻嗎嚇阻這些不實的交易訊息影響到農產品的價格那怎麼去嚇阻我想喔"},{"start":5114.449,"end":5135.354,"text":"一個嚇阻的方法就是第一個罰款第二個就是因為在這個刑法的215條裡面也有相關的刑責的部分但是我覺得農業部該做的就是說怎麼樣去讓這樣子的一個假訊息能夠掌握它的源頭因為掌握到它的源頭釋放者的時候那後續的調查會比較精準"},{"start":5136.192,"end":5163.377,"text":"那如果一現行我們只是把它提高它的罰則的話你如果一樣查不到的話你一樣罰不下去啊對我我我了解齁所以我才會我就針對這個部分的我也跟農業部裡面的同仁在討論齁就是後續當你有這樣子的一個謠言一開始起來的時候我們就當下就要去追查而不是等到這個謠言擴散了以後那擴散了以後它的人數眾多就比較不容易查所以這個部分我們會更精準的打擊"},{"start":5163.737,"end":5185.038,"text":"委員長這個是不是要再研擬更好的一些方法好不好因為他一旦散播出去對農產品的價格就產生相當大的影響那這個時代又是網路的時代而且又是大量散播的時代跟以前的是已經不一樣了所以我認為其實現在的政府要能夠因應現在的只要有少數的不孝人惡意的去製造假訊息破壞你的價格的話"},{"start":5185.759,"end":5186.339,"text":"８立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案"},{"start":5201.468,"end":5224.683,"text":"黃牛的問題的時候一些這個文藝的一些演唱會票黃牛價格若有開罰出來成功那嚇阻效果就出現就有效果同樣我也認為應該努力的去開罰出來就是對於這些惡意的散播不實的訊息然後造成農產品價格的混亂甚至於這些部分應該要給你開罰那你有開罰成功了之後你後面才要產生相關的嚇阻力了解好不好"},{"start":5225.083,"end":5253.633,"text":"部長那個希望農業部來審慎來營運最後一個小小的猕猴的部分猕猴其實對很多的農產品也都產生相當的影響我也希望我知道農業部有編一些經費給地方政府那我也希望有些地方做的效果不錯有些效果不是那麼好我也希望農業部整體思考好不好讓猕猴這個問題能夠減少對於農產品的一個影響好不好部長我們真的猕猴的部分我們也現在也開出就是說大家一起想想他的方法啦"},{"start":5254.113,"end":5254.633,"text":"謝謝賴瑞榮委員接下來我們請林大化委員發言"},{"start":5289.952,"end":5290.272,"text":"有請部長來請陳部長"},{"start":5298.945,"end":5318.352,"text":"地木不依政策防護二三養殖戶的生計有幾個重點來做討論第一個土地遭受研化之後農民如何因應第二個在我們這麼複雜的一個即使是農業用地他有農牧用地也有這個養殖用地"},{"start":5318.792,"end":5322.534,"text":"８立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查．完整會議"},{"start":5343.123,"end":5351.85,"text":"一萬公頃減到三點五萬公頃這個本席是支持的所以你們講得很好聽叫做積極輔導業者發展海上鄉網養殖並推廣友善養殖結合私內養殖模式以降低傳統水產養殖高耗水土資源的衝擊這個也是對的"},{"start":5365.66,"end":5391.04,"text":"好但是呢你們政策規劃有沒有看現況這個地目如此混一的情況之下你們怎麼去做配套呢過去長期引進海水養殖的土地已經遭到嚴簡化了在無法復養的情況之下好你現在縮減他的陸地養殖的規模沒有問題他養了一輩子的漁民你要如何轉業務農"},{"start":5394.781,"end":5394.801,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":5414.773,"end":5427.018,"text":"或者呢這個土地的土壤性質或是核災中的作物需要協助的話呢那農民呢你自己主動的去找農業這個試驗所或各地的農業改良長洽詢這個意思呢就是凸顯農業部的政策規劃的失能了你叫你要達到你那這個永續養殖糧食安全但是他的土地因為受你要配合你這個政策我不能再養殖了"},{"start":5444.645,"end":5447.972,"text":"不能養殖之後這是他的財產你限制他的財產不能再養殖了要轉為互農了那你的規劃是什麼"},{"start":5457.553,"end":5476.366,"text":"這個民事職務學者啊你既然這個學者要來張公務人員又墮了部長這個政務官那你的思維可不能就是學者了好偏偏了你的規劃的思維呢就是好啦我給你限制你的土地齁啊你來教我政府的齁啊我給你限制你的土地你的財產喔抱歉你怎樣我沒要處理啊我要給你一條生路嗎那不是我的事你給你去問政府相關單位這個思維就是這樣"},{"start":5487.193,"end":5492.476,"text":"好那這個呢有關農牧跟養殖漁牧混地這就是廣義的農業用地竟然還有許多養殖戶因為未將地牧變更為養殖漁業用土維持農牧用地這句話什麼意思呢就是說好你們也承認很多養殖戶他的地牧叫做農牧用地"},{"start":5509.204,"end":5517.708,"text":"但是他就是有種種的原因他並沒有把榮木用地變更為養殖用地雖然都在所謂的廣義的農業用地之下這樣的的面積有多少等一下我再給這也是你們的公開資料好等一下再說"},{"start":5525.091,"end":5539.74,"text":"好那如果就是這樣子情況之下我本來是養殖沒有變更我養殖用地好你們這一道命令下去也就是剛才你們基於永續養殖環境跟糧食安全本席是支持喔但是你的衝擊面沒有顧及到"},{"start":5541.181,"end":5561.95,"text":"所以你們這個規定下去之後既存的餘溫所作的土地屬養牧用地的過往三年沒有養殖適時的就不能申請復養如果再養殖就非法使用了本期要講的是如果這三年沒有養殖你過往有十幾二十年有養殖的適時你是不採的"},{"start":5565.262,"end":5592.067,"text":"所以看人家是因為種種的原因有這三年就是沒有辦法養殖過往十幾二十年所以我是支持如果過往這三年之前完全沒有養殖適時的那不好意思你就得配合政策了但是如果說你是養這三年沒有養殖但是過往是有的而且十幾二十年傳了第二代第三代了這樣子你把它限制下去好你們就不能再養殖了好"},{"start":5592.987,"end":5610.93,"text":"那你們的回文是什麼呢好你們說針對這樣的我也請你們說啊掉出來到底真的面積有多少啊如果是少少數那也就好我們看怎麼來來做一些配套啊你們農業部的回文啊全台餘電共生我就針對這個養這個所謂的無法啊不利於這個相關農業耕種或榆木的這些你們化作餘電共生區的有兩萬多公頃"},{"start":5619.812,"end":5634.583,"text":"這兩萬公頃有三個分類我現在分類都按照你左邊這張文的回文第一個分類呢叫做農牧用地持續三年沒有再養的市值的餘溫922公頃雖然他佔了你這兩萬的漁電供升的專居佔了4.4%但是不要忘了這4.4%也有922公頃第二個呢這個這兩萬多公頃當中呢其中"},{"start":5645.831,"end":5660.658,"text":"有1715.70公頃是提出申請的第三個呢還有18000多公頃也就是這裡的漁電共生當中還有87%的用地是還沒使用的好那本席就針對針對"},{"start":5664.419,"end":5674.064,"text":"針對這個第一個項目所謂農牧用地持續養養了三年但是之前是有的喔是有養殖事實只不過這三年沒有的事實喔這樣的餘溫來做跟您做請益好那這個是一個實例也就是我這麼旁邊下面這張圖我旁邊周邊都是完整的餘溫區他也就可以依法來做餘電共生這是你們的規定"},{"start":5688.47,"end":5691.032,"text":"中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查．如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查．如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查．"},{"start":5710.158,"end":5720.725,"text":"那你的政策要怎麼種什麼是有經濟價值的種什麼是有經濟價值你要告訴人家一條路啊你不能說好叫人家自己去問這個農改廠啊好再來那這個下面"},{"start":5726.548,"end":5746.349,"text":"最後我的漁民生計要何去何從你一般的農業區的農牧用地都要申請合法的餘溫必須要有既存的養殖而且要過去有三年的復養如果呢不得復養養殖戶就必須改為務農但是我要務農的時候又遇到土地演化了所以你就叫人民的土地就閒置在那邊"},{"start":5747.79,"end":5751.433,"text":"所以就算我漁民要改為其他的物種我是養石斑魚的我要改為虱目魚我的設備我的技術的人才的培訓我的市場的開發光是養魚我改為不同的物種我就花多大的力氣你直接一句話說你們漁民不能要配合政府然後不能養了不能種植了直接誤農也沒告訴人家你要怎麼做"},{"start":5776.493,"end":5779.414,"text":"好那再來就算這種廢棄的餘溫還有什麼問題我就以本本席的選區這個在這個新聞在今年3月一個廢棄的一個餘溫廢棄於久之後他不是廢棄於久他就沒水了他有家庭廢水甚至其他養殖廢水聚集在此"},{"start":5797.901,"end":5808.231,"text":"長年有水雖然叫廢棄的餘溫所以呢他因為水溫蓋高所以呢我們旁邊的本來沒有水母結果有這個生態改變了所以水母暴增所以廢棄的餘溫你們對於廢棄的餘溫有相關的配套嗎"},{"start":5813.175,"end":5824.492,"text":"沒有好所以呢這個全台10縣市的漁電共生區等等當中地幕不一農業部怎麼可以用一刀切剛性作業的原則毫無配套聽好部長您是即將連任的部長"},{"start":5829.059,"end":5829.459,"text":"部長請回答"},{"start":5853.534,"end":5864.538,"text":"簡單的跟委員說明就是委員剛才所提到的一些我們的回覆我也覺得有不恰當的地方第一點第二點就是說我們先不處理光電的後續的不需要針對廢棄餘溫我也覺得說"},{"start":5869.02,"end":5869.841,"text":"接下來我們請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":5909.119,"end":5936.323,"text":"主席有請部長請陳部長部長好委員長好這次花蓮0403的大地震除了造成很多的房屋倒塌飯店倒塌然後很重要的就是"},{"start":5938.239,"end":5953.425,"text":"的道路,我們從樹花公路相關的這些公路的中斷就造成了很多我們的農業產品沒有辦法運到"},{"start":5958.424,"end":5977.438,"text":"北部這邊所以這個變成要去繞一大圈到這個南部到台北事實上真的是這個花費時間而且是必須要這個凌晨的凌晨要更早要就要出發"},{"start":5978.615,"end":6007.046,"text":"然後這個現在雖然蘇花公路雖然已經有通一部分但是它是單線而且還有限制這個車輛的大小所以這個部分是有這樣的一個狀況所以這個農業部當然也有因應著這些措施在整個行政院的這個召集然後285億的之中"},{"start":6008.162,"end":6025.617,"text":"佔了一小塊1.83億振興當地農村的旅遊然後當然就是提出這個每一張250元面額的優惠券這個部分有幾個部分要再去"},{"start":6029.526,"end":6035.158,"text":"這個精進啊第一個時間啊這個7月1號就還相當久啊這個7月1號現在當時我們發生是4月3號啊"},{"start":6041.514,"end":6068.449,"text":"事業商號到現在都還沒有辦法實施因為這個部分其實不是那麼困難的因為過去都很有經驗這個疫後的疫情之後為了要那個都有很多的經驗把它拿來複製就可以了何況過去這個花蓮的造成的地震或是其他縣市的造成的"},{"start":6069.75,"end":6085.868,"text":"相關風災都有很多的一個可以參考的所以這個部分要請農業部這個農糧署在這邊去多加油這個第一個時間可以提早嗎?"},{"start":6088.366,"end":6108.242,"text":"我跟委員說明就是這個地震我想針對農產品因為道路中斷的關係嘛會影響到農產品的往西部送的這樣所以我們在第一時間就針對那個運費的補助那其實我們更重要就是因為道路的中斷你沒辦法買的時候遊客不會進去的時候所以我們當下就"},{"start":6109.142,"end":6136.351,"text":"我們就辦了一個活動叫重新出發就是在網購平台買500送100就是希望對然後現在這個部分您剛才講這個部分是遊客要進去那要拉遊客進去的部分我想不只是農業部我們也會配合交通部觀光局這邊一起來啟動那這個啟動的時間點會依我想整個政府是一體的會依交通的順暢度能夠能夠盡快當然我們會盡快"},{"start":6138.132,"end":6151.655,"text":"好部長哈這個在上禮拜六哈上禮拜六鄭文燦副院長是這個跟很多的部會的這個單位都去了花蓮縣政府嗯"},{"start":6152.728,"end":6153.308,"text":"委員會提前提早到6月。"},{"start":6175.55,"end":6199.24,"text":"農村水保署署長也沒有來了所以這個部分他說還在規劃怎麼細節這些趕快去把它這個完整我想我們會盡快的配合整個行政院的政經平台會同步的推動這個部分因為不僅僅是這樣這個是農產品這個部分另外就是你們也要去盤點"},{"start":6201.615,"end":6229.396,"text":"應該也有多資料看怎麼樣資料怎麼樣也如果你們已經有相關的資料我們比對一下我這邊是不是還有你們沒有落的就針對這些農路因為道路也受到影響農路的部分包括這些這個因為那段時間除了地震之外又下雨下雨就鬆動了然後一下雨"},{"start":6234,"end":6253.197,"text":"我跟委員說明,像地震以後,我們農政協調組隨時在監控它的代工的崩塌地,那相關的農路如果受準的話,我想縣市政府,我們也跟縣市政府有一個平台,他隨時通報,那我們也會納入相關的計畫,那目前為止大概已經有大概1.1億左右在持續在投入這個農路的這個修復。你說這一次的嗎?"},{"start":6256.3,"end":6272.7,"text":"對,這次的。 針對地震嗎?對,天然災害的部分嘛,因為包括這種地震的部分,然後崩塌下來的部分,那這些道路的茶菇包括我們的農政水保署還有縣市政府也都會茶菇。茶菇回來以後,我們會納入整個這次專案的部分去做處理。"},{"start":6273.18,"end":6274.121,"text":"謝謝鄭天才委員接下來我們請陳超明委員發言"},{"start":6305.599,"end":6328.356,"text":"主席有請我們陳代理部長來請陳部長首先恭喜我們陳代理部長520你就遵守了恭喜你好好為臺灣的農業加油那今天我第一個要來請教"},{"start":6329.96,"end":6348.754,"text":"我們的陳代理部長在這個臺美21世紀貿易倡議裡面上週在臺北已經完成最新會合的一個談判雙方已經就第二批協定的提案內容交換意見裡面有包括農業、勞動"},{"start":6351.338,"end":6366.333,"text":"環境的領域阿蘇會談饒戶成效那我不曉得饒戶成效在哪裡那現在最重要是討論到農業的方面那台灣忽略美國協志化解中國對台灣經濟的脅迫"},{"start":6369.328,"end":6397.251,"text":"並致使美方開放臺灣的農產品來施美。．那行政院政務委員鄧正宗也表示臺灣爭取奉禮芒果、肉鬆、香腸出口至美國其中奉禮芒果曾遭到中國拼命的禁銷盼美方能抵制中國大陸的經濟脅迫那這裡面我感覺都很奇怪"},{"start":6398.852,"end":6413.51,"text":"那你在這方面的了解多少那若松、香腸、鳳梨、芒果輸出到那邊台灣這個本來就應該要給我們過了如果兩邊在談判的時候就沒有什麼一個很大的問題吧"},{"start":6416.405,"end":6437.607,"text":"我先跟委員說明就是臺美貿易的一個協定的第二階段的一個談判的部分那基本上最主要的部分是針對相關的整個的一個國際規範跟它的一個相關的一個風險還有它的依據科學根據的一個檢疫條件那因為我先跟委員說明像芭樂我們蘇美花了10年"},{"start":6438.368,"end":6453.856,"text":"那這個10年過程中表示說兩個國家之間的這些檢疫的這些規範並沒有做一個很好的調和所以我們這次談判的目的是希望針對檢疫方面的整個科學根據它的風險能夠有一個比較好的一個調和機制這樣對於我們未來農業部本身的農產品的輸美會有"},{"start":6458.018,"end":6460.06,"text":"我記得上次在經濟委員會臺灣說現在要進入CPTPP就是要以進步國家"},{"start":6482.998,"end":6483.638,"text":"我跟委員報告齁,所有的"},{"start":6513.091,"end":6514.632,"text":"我希望你能做到這一點因為以後是免關稅是世界級的競爭"},{"start":6528.7,"end":6539.466,"text":"免關稅不是所有的東西都免關稅那相對的話會根據我們的產品的優勢去處理臺灣的農業產品都可以銷到美國啦不要他的牛肉豬肉銷來我們臺灣我們不能銷過去啦這樣不合理的啦我想我們一定會"},{"start":6553.362,"end":6555.424,"text":"針對我們的農民的權益包括保護產品的競爭會做到的努力。"},{"start":6570.713,"end":6593.758,"text":"我跟委員報告,風農的部分我們現在基本上經過跟業者協調跟我們內部討論基本上如果說它的蜂蜜的蜜源受到某個程度的損失的時候我們就會把它納入我們的天然災害救助的相關的辦法這個我想已經確定了然後現在我們相關的草案已經擬定了有沒有"},{"start":6594.808,"end":6594.828,"text":"再來"},{"start":6623.483,"end":6633.292,"text":"最近你在討論公糧收購的價格提高你是看你的講話的意思是不怎麼贊成提高啊"},{"start":6634.648,"end":6662.294,"text":"我跟委員說明齁其實包括希望公糧收購提高背後的目的都是希望我們農民的所得能夠確保跟甚至於提高嘛我想這個是大家一致性的但是在討論到針對農民所得的確保到農所得的確保的時候他有很多種方式跟他的配套作為那公糧直接啟動公糧的價格提高只是一個方法之一那這個方法是不是唯一的"},{"start":6663.474,"end":6677.17,"text":"我們認為不是唯一的我們還有其他的方法可以去做相關的處理一個很簡單的道理你們的說法都互相矛盾不會你說你的道良是為了會影響到"},{"start":6678.191,"end":6703.565,"text":"那個糧食的安全你的報告又說臺灣的稻米生產過剩怎麼會影響到糧食的安全還有你的報告裡面如果供糧提高收購的價格農民又轉做來做稻糧但是我要提醒你一句話我們新任的農業部長農民的期望他不管怎麼樣"},{"start":6704.585,"end":6726.797,"text":"因為所有的物價都在上漲你供糧收購沒有上漲包括你的那個雅恩愛啦各方面都在上已經都在上漲供糧收購你不上漲啊你變成啊我們農民的一個罪人你一定會受到評舉我希望這點好好的你要做一個影響"},{"start":6727.797,"end":6730.158,"text":"但是你趕快出來啊每次下鄉農民都問到說要吃什麼你給他們保證說"},{"start":6754.378,"end":6756.82,"text":"臺灣的糧食已經過剩了所謂影響到糧食的安全問題"},{"start":6779.059,"end":6799.129,"text":"整個的糧食安全本身他有適當的面積去處理重水道還有另外一個最重要的考量就是水資源你們都在這一邊啦你們不想要去你們講的理由不充分等你正式糾正我就好好來檢討這個問題我們做可以做完整的一個規劃再跟委員說明"},{"start":6800.302,"end":6800.782,"text":"接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":6847.801,"end":6868.036,"text":"副委員長副委員長我們4月17日之後去屏東我們是要去追這個雞蛋企劃的公開透明是我那天看起來"},{"start":6870.086,"end":6893.847,"text":"去的委員都生氣啦我看楊瓊英脾氣很好了楊瓊英委員都動怒都發火了他剛剛又問也動怒了然後講本期的辦公室很多民眾打電話進來是在抗議的我們現在就事論事我們來看一天要怎麼做三點的決定對不對雞蛋去化的影帶要完整的公開在4月30號以前農業部的官網要公開"},{"start":6896.297,"end":6913.938,"text":"你們有完整公開了嗎?還是把我們委員會的決議當成是空氣?我好想當初在委員會也跟委員說明了就是我們每一天的錄影帶的本身有沒有它是每一天每一天的那個直接進到我現在去看你的來下一張"},{"start":6916.701,"end":6944.374,"text":"我去你的官網裡面看,農業部官網裡面看你上傳了三部影片嘛對不對?那三部其實就是我們去民眾看到的啊那這個沒有違反我們那一天經濟委員會做的決議嗎?決議裡面有兩個點很重要喔第一個只要完整,第二個叫做公開透明對不對?你這個三個有叫做完整嗎?有公開透明嗎?你回給本席你還說你的那個檔案太大"},{"start":6946.788,"end":6955.722,"text":"有檔案太大問題嗎?6.7TB你放上YT整理完很快就可以上去啦這個沒有容量的限制啊"},{"start":6956.584,"end":6983.383,"text":"我跟委員說明齁我們當我們進到官網全部的官網我們所有的影片絕對可以公開我我剛才說過的就是我們公開的部分是讓外界知道齁我們的整個的進口進口那個過期雞蛋的報備過程中都有第三方監督的整個流程他只是一個流程的部分但是如果說需要的話可以來索索取我們就會給他所以保證保證現在有幾個問題第一呢這是本委員會我們這個去屏東衝突的"},{"start":6988.647,"end":7013.348,"text":"白紙黑字嘛對不對你也在現場啊裡面就是完整公開啊怎麼只有三部呢這是第一個對不對第一個是數位化時代資訊化的時代啊你怎麼講說檔案太大呢你們不是有很多資訊人員嗎你有資訊師對不對你親自去問你資訊師問一下這個要上去這個有什麼難的太簡單了現在突然間就是說你本來答應說你每天就應該整理就要上傳了嘛"},{"start":7013.928,"end":7020.207,"text":"第一個你沒有做這個動作所以本期今天非常明確的要求這個是委員會做的決議你要落實的第一個"},{"start":7022.233,"end":7043.146,"text":"每部你把它去融化之後,完整上傳到你們農業部的官網,在外地上面,就是你名稱應該有個範例嘛,這個很容易整理啊,你只要分類啊,你有日期,從哪個倉庫出去了,你去哪個地方去化廠,數量,你照這樣很簡單整個就上去啦,讓人民去檢視嘛,欸柏中,你為什麼從代理部長變成真廚?"},{"start":7045.948,"end":7066.362,"text":"你的民調是不錯的喔你為什麼有些部長被換掉因為民調很不好嘛我跟你講你現在要面對民眾民眾有那麼多憤怒那麼多的生氣可是你還可以爭取當部長因為這個是以前陳其中幹的事啊陳其中下台啦你不要引火焚身喔你要面對民眾去解決問題嘛而且這個是本委員會的"},{"start":7068.428,"end":7079.233,"text":"做這兩點好不好完整上去第二個你用檔案用範例日期倉儲區劃場跟數量很快就可以上去啊讓人民去檢視要不然民眾怎麼會怎麼知道真相"},{"start":7081.014,"end":7107.377,"text":"我跟委員說明喔當初沒有辦法全部上去我們也詢問過相關的資訊的部分因為上去本身是一件事情就是外界在看的時候的本身的那個那個下載的跟那個流量的部分他是一個不是說我上場掛上去就結束了我們也希望我們也提供了就是如果你要其他的日期的時候我們可以來提供那如果說委員覺得說我們這個不對提供給本席啦那第二更重要的你們趕快做這件事啦"},{"start":7107.717,"end":7125.735,"text":"那全民去檢討,我現在是跟你講,你如果不做這個動作我覺得可以,我說如果全部的檔案提供給檢討,我們用整個檔案的部分提供給委員那也容委員能夠同意我們再跟資訊師,因為我們怕我們整個網站掛掉所以如果他真的不能"},{"start":7126.375,"end":7132.96,"text":"掛上去是一件事情,就是後面的流量會引起,對,然後我把個別的所有的東西,上去絕對沒問題,就是後面的流量的不碰碰,然後我們把所有的完整的影片給你,是,了解,了解,了解,"},{"start":7152.774,"end":7162.601,"text":"五千五百八十萬顆是那時候的一個截止從包括我們在報廢的一個專案處理是五千五百八十萬顆那五千七百七十二萬顆它是包含那個時間的截止點前還有一百多萬顆它是陸續做銷毀的"},{"start":7181.189,"end":7205.875,"text":"所以最後總共是5772所以這兩個數目是差了192萬顆就對了沒有我分兩個部分解釋5580萬顆是我們做專案的這些報廢的招標嘛有沒有包括我們招標去做堆肥做去化這是一件事情在這個之前我們有陸續的去處理它的報廢的雞蛋的時候它有大概100多萬顆所以加起來是5772萬顆所以正確的數目是5772萬顆嘛對不對是不是這樣對嘛"},{"start":7210.496,"end":7229.25,"text":"你消失了190萬顆你要交代清楚嗎對190萬顆這個190萬顆其實在我們的官網就一直就會有出現那我強調的是5580萬顆是我們專案在處理的部分包括我們招標4000多萬的部分因為委員那時候一直強調這個4000多萬本身的那個5580萬好所以現在明確的數目是不是消毀了5780萬顆對不對對5580萬顆加190萬顆那如果這樣的話你後面那個"},{"start":7236.435,"end":7259.475,"text":"錢的事情就不對啦你用去算的是用500...不是用後面這個你用前面啦你那個齁真的是一日三價啦 欸 否定存起這種告例要銷毀的錢要多少錢一日三價你今天這是全民買單喔把數目字你到底買了多少錢銷毀用了多少錢能不能給我一口價很清楚的價格"},{"start":7265.56,"end":7284.706,"text":"我所得到的資訊就是我們農業部在112年本身我們補助的續展會是8.2億嘛對不對然後今年度因為他是年度結帳的那今年度續展會並沒有還沒有來跟我們去做相關的計畫的一些申請"},{"start":7285.726,"end":7286.847,"text":"而且這些雞蛋本身"},{"start":7304.858,"end":7318.422,"text":"右邊的這個明確右邊的是對今天第一次出現有史以來我們最後一年快一年了第一最明確的數目是另外再加上前面的你說買單買了多少8.2億8.2嘛加起來應該13億啊沒有沒有8.2億是涵蓋了去化的4.7億不是相加的"},{"start":7325.964,"end":7326.184,"text":"我們補助的是8.21啊"},{"start":7338.933,"end":7339.873,"text":"二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員"},{"start":7358.479,"end":7381.602,"text":"中央市長會的職位都下台的時候不是一個錯誤,所以你覺得搞不好還有貪污的問題?超市到底算了多少錢?我告訴你,如果委員認為有貪污問題,我想盡可能可以從檢調單位來調查,我覺得都可以,但是它不是一個錯誤的政策。OK,今天對媒體來講就很重要了,去化花了4億709萬,然後整體加起來這是一個錯誤政策,超過10億,所以我是有一個要求。"},{"start":7382.918,"end":7391.147,"text":"我本席跟我們的委員一直要求2022年中央續產會從日本專案進口雞蛋3080萬顆採購金額2億2502萬我們已經跟你手之手的兩個半夜了"},{"start":7398.442,"end":7417.148,"text":"為什麼都不給我跟委員說明等一下我先明確要求本期要求上開這個2020年日本專案進口雞蛋的採購廠商的名稱採購的數額採購的合約還有為何迴避國會監督已經兩個半列了我跟委員說明合約的部分因為不是農業部訂的是續長會跟第三方訂的那我也請續長會因為合約的公開"},{"start":7425.231,"end":7452.65,"text":"要雙方都同意的時候我們也請市長會去問秉芳秉芳認為他是營業秘密所以我們沒辦法公開因為不是農業部簽約的是乙秉芳那乙秉芳有一方他不同意公開的話我們沒辦法公開市長會自己都是用我們的錢賺回來人員的名字很高那我們現在立法院要求要公開你現在拿不出來市長會本身是一個法人所有的廠商明確廠商都說話不會公開我們都沒辦法監督嗎"},{"start":7453.945,"end":7454.546,"text":"來,那個時間大了我我我沒有"},{"start":7459.793,"end":7459.993,"text":"請邱志偉委員發言"},{"start":7498.388,"end":7521.559,"text":"有有有我剛請邱志偉委員發言這個本席諮詢都是一項遵守時間對是委員會的好模範行政跟立法互相尊重理性監督一項是本席的問政原則請陳部長來請陳部長"},{"start":7529.386,"end":7546.362,"text":"市長,首先恭喜這個部長,從代理部長徵處為部長。那你兩位正次,一位是湖中醫署長,農糧署,他在管農業部分,那另外一個是高雄區漁會的黃昭青總幹事,他在管漁的部分,是不是這樣做分工?"},{"start":7547.564,"end":7575.126,"text":"對一個是負責農糧的部分一個是負責漁業的部分所以這樣分工我覺得是一個很好的組合加上你在部裡面也服務過那麼多年所以所有業務你都熟悉我想請教幾個問題就是說國民黨上禮拜去中國阿他對台灣的農業的推廣或者是農民的這個權益有具體的幫助嗎還是針對特定的項目一些小時小會"},{"start":7576.912,"end":7598.048,"text":"沒有什麼大格局對臺灣整體的農業有沒有任何幫助呢?我想就是有部分的委員到中國去訪問我想我們會絕對會尊重但是扯到相關的農產品會因為這樣子的一個開放事實上到目前為止我們並沒有受到正式的通知"},{"start":7599.329,"end":7621.143,"text":"所以那只是說說而已,具體要落實還是要回歸到行政權?對,所有的農產品貿易一定是經過正式的一個檢驗平台那是放煙火的嘛,放煙火,那看一看,好像這個很絢爛,好像表面上有一些成績,但具體上是零,是虛的所以這是務虛,要務實還是要回到行政部門,對不對?"},{"start":7623.945,"end":7643.078,"text":"五二零之前會不會中國用這些把農業當作統戰的工具或者來打壓或者是對台灣的農業來打壓或者進行一些五二零之前的一些小動作有沒有可能我想所有的可能都有但是我們還是"},{"start":7644.739,"end":7673.694,"text":"我們走我們自己的路我們針對我們的農產品包括現在的鳳梨被禁的鳳梨包括蓮霧包括文旦其實我們都針對這些品項我們去做一個處理市場風扇風扇是非常重要不能這個依賴這個中國市場因為中國市場是危險的市場雖然市場很巨大但是它是我們敵國對不對很容易把這個農業產品農業視為他們的這個統戰工具或者是政策的攻擊工具對不對"},{"start":7674.574,"end":7674.814,"text":"實施的目標是農業及農業民。（"},{"start":7700.771,"end":7702.693,"text":"對,我了解齁,就是我跟委員說明齁,就是說"},{"start":7718.59,"end":7740.32,"text":"當中國限制的漁產品、農產品出口的時候,我們積極拉抬其他的第三市場。你看石斑魚到日本是有成果嘛。那你看香港同樣是東亞,那韓國市場也可以去開拓啊。不要只覺得日本,日本當然有它的市場,但是還是有它的局限性嘛。所以我希望說是未來東南亞也可以。"},{"start":7741.448,"end":7741.568,"text":"主席"},{"start":7768.118,"end":7791.904,"text":"這個你回一下我想整個目前的全球化我想我們國際市跟產業主管機關都已經在做整體的佈局那一個非常重要的就是通路的連結啦因為通路連結這個問題已經告訴你們是說中國的市場很不穩定充滿了威脅充滿了這個不確定性所以你要提及早佈局到其他包括日本包括東南亞包括這個韓國那另外這個"},{"start":7796.778,"end":7819.866,"text":"四、五月大概是裕和包的產季。對。那今年為何裕和包的產季,為什麼今年的產量會那麼的少?主要的原因是什麼?我想那個荔枝跟龍眼一樣,它在開花的時候它需要一些涼溫。那今年那個溫度,就是溫度比較高,造成它的涼溫度不夠。有可能會變成說,這個常態性的嘛。"},{"start":7820.826,"end":7847.78,"text":"這個就是我們擔心的對 面臨長期擔心你知道這個育兒包一年的產季只有這短短的兩個禮拜三個禮拜對剩兩個禮拜那他們一年的這個投入就是為了這兩三個禮拜的這個產季那如果產量大減他們收入大部分是血本無歸啊是那這個有沒有相關補償措施呢我跟委員說明喔我現在正在思考就是這種極端天候對於果樹因為果樹不能移動"},{"start":7849.241,"end":7867.048,"text":"我想以後可能這種遇到這種天然災害的那個頻度會越來越高所以未來整個的產區的可能的一個千的板塊的移動我想我們正在做評估那至於說怎麼樣讓現有的這些癒合包等這些荔枝齁能夠忍受更多的"},{"start":7870.689,"end":7894.643,"text":"因為它的收入跟去年比較是收入減少了七成那有沒有對相關的農民有相關的補償?我現在是沒有,現在只是針對天然災害那廣義來說它也是天然災害是極端氣候所引起高溫所引起的產量最低減所以這部分我想你們還是要體恤的農民因為他靠天吃飯靠天氣那這種要補償或者相關的補貼措施"},{"start":7898.376,"end":7924.417,"text":"我們現在是用天然災救助啦那當然他只是補他的成本而已啦那其他的產業的輔導我想我們還會做進一步的資料再提供給我就是我還有很多議題但是我要示範什麼叫做理性的監督理性的問政好時間到此好謝謝邱智偉委員接下來我們請呂玉玲委員發言呂委員發言之後我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":7928.188,"end":7928.528,"text":"謝謝主席,請陳部長"},{"start":7947.003,"end":7954.731,"text":"委員長,在前年的6月的時候,臺美雙方都有宣布說要啟動臺美21世紀的貿易倡議。本倡議也提供了12項談判的內容,在去年6月1號已經簽署了。第二次的談判也有啟動了。"},{"start":7967.844,"end":7974.105,"text":"中間的話這個也特別觸及到我們針對於農業還有勞動跟我們環境中間的這個農業的部分那臺美這個除了討論這個糧食的安全以外我們的農業創新的技術跟合作的機制在這個我們也有向美國表達希望能夠准許我們的香腸啊肉鬆跟鳳梨芒果農產品都能夠出口出口"},{"start":7995.171,"end":8009.045,"text":"來減低對大陸對我貿易壁壘這個手段對我們農產品的出口造成的一個衝擊對不對對我想這次的這次的那個農產那個談美的貿易倡議的一個談判本身所以部長我們是農業部有參加嗎"},{"start":8011.046,"end":8036.152,"text":"對,農業部,我們是配合OTN,因為OTN主談的,我們農業部有派人參加那最主要的談判的內容是鎖定在整個的一個以科學為根據、風險為依據的一個農產品貿易的一個相關的國際規範好,那既然我們農業部有全程參加的話,本席想請問的就是說有沒有針對一些我們像美豬啊美牛的一些限制他們有提出來討論呢?"},{"start":8037.219,"end":8052.439,"text":"我想我們在這一次的農產品的那個臺美貿易倡議的一個談判並沒有針對個案的部分我想我們都是用通案的方式我想我們在乎的是我們怎麼樣能夠盡快的把我們臺灣農產品輸到美國嘛這輸到美國會牽涉到檢疫的談判"},{"start":8055.983,"end":8083.533,"text":"那檢疫牽扯到後面的科學根據跟它的風險我們希望說兩國的這個檢疫的科學根據跟風險能夠一致化,這樣的話更快委員會這麼問的話是因為我們瞭解到美國非常關心這個美牛美豬的這個問題那尤其在這一次第二次談判又是農業部又部長您這邊都有全程在參加我們擔心的他們提出來之前的話像美牛美豬有萊克多巴胺的問題那尤其是這個牛隻的這個比較"},{"start":8084.313,"end":8096.081,"text":"高階層、高層危險的這個部分含有萊克多巴胺的我們都沒有開放那如果在這一次已經你第二次的第一輪已經談完了那第二輪會是什麼時候開始會不會再談到這個問題"},{"start":8098.069,"end":8109.821,"text":"我想整個的談判的時程沒有一定的說什麼時候一定要談完那第二次會什麼時候呢第二次可能會透過視訊我想OTN會再安排用視訊的方式但是我要再次強調的是以農業部的立場針對相關的農產品的部分我們一定會維護我們本身的農業"},{"start":8116.167,"end":8118.128,"text":"對,我想以農業部的立場,我想我們會重視整個消費者的安全,也會重視我們產業的一個穩定性。"},{"start":8143.032,"end":8152.336,"text":"好那接下來就是我們看到農業部非常關心我們的花蓮農產品的問題因為地震的關係那尤其是在這整個我們有提供的這個預算將近14億1830萬的預算要來振興提振這個花蓮的農產品那特別我們農業部又跟行政院爭取了1.83億要用發"},{"start":8169.082,"end":8169.923,"text":"）立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":8186.238,"end":8207.49,"text":"三點的時候我們當時啊就是說消費進了滿六百元我們可以登錄發票去抽兩百元的農油件當時我們預備的是有三十萬張結果活動結束之後只有三萬兩千一百八十五張不到一成現在你又要發農油件這個會不會得不到預期的效果呢"},{"start":8208.15,"end":8236.278,"text":"我想我們發不管是過去的疫情期間的農油券跟現在的一個相關的農油券你認為這個有疫情的效果嗎?會提到民眾的意願嗎?兩個的樣態不一樣一個是在疫情,疫情的時候是當下大家緊張不敢出門那跟現在的花蓮地震是那個區域本身因為交通的關係讓其他的地區的人想進去進不去"},{"start":8236.958,"end":8258.7,"text":"我們有潛力給你參考請你們要好好的考量那本席是建議啦既然你有心要讓花蓮的農產品能夠銷售你不如用市價跟農民買農產品再幫忙農民去銷售這樣子實質的幫助農民才會更有效這個操作上有它的困難度啦"},{"start":8259.321,"end":8261.583,"text":"我希望你能考量用試駕奶農產品幫助他們產銷這才是最重要的比較實質性的好不好好"},{"start":8282.621,"end":8282.781,"text":"財政局局長"},{"start":8297.722,"end":8298.082,"text":"部長,我不熟悉齁"},{"start":8321.149,"end":8332.034,"text":"不是往南部移我們全台灣的茶產有南部也有北部尤其是北部桃園是最重要的地方所以我這次特別要針對茶改廠遷移的問題我們要來表達這五個理由不要牽場第一個理由就是桃園生根茶葉的19的歷史在民國前九年就已經成立了到現在121年的歷史是有非常歷史保存的價值"},{"start":8346.96,"end":8350.223,"text":"二、多元的茶文化尤其是高山茶還有我們當地的東方美人茶、烏龍茶、紅茶、綠茶等等這都顯示我們桃園的茶文化是非常多元的發展第三項就是我們茶產業桃園是重要的農業的產業"},{"start":8365.836,"end":8366.176,"text":"臺灣北桃"},{"start":8387.503,"end":8387.563,"text":"．立法院議員"},{"start":8409.73,"end":8436.459,"text":"知慧茶園也鼓勵我們的茶農還有我們的茶園能夠導入智慧型的灌溉包括是微氣象感測這個裝置我們都有在裝置這個科學的設備所以讓我們整個茶改廠的這個建立的這個多樣化跟多元性的智慧科技都因應在這個大的數據的收集如果被你遷移的話這個未來可能會遭受到我們整個桃園北部這個茶葉發展的很大的一個傷害"},{"start":8438.82,"end":8444.942,"text":"所以在這邊具體的請求這個我們部長你下任新的政府你還是農業部的部長請桃園的兩年的茶改廠有121年的這個歷史請你們要注重我們茶改廠那個遷廠會影響我們桃園茶的產業所以北部的茶產業的發展也拜託我們張市長希望我把這個重要的意見交給部長茶改廠未來能夠繼續留在我們桃園這一點請部長"},{"start":8468.612,"end":8468.952,"text":"李玉琳委員"},{"start":8515.612,"end":8516.192,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8531.715,"end":8555.583,"text":"二、審查本院議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。�"},{"start":8559.798,"end":8574.542,"text":"二、審查本院議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）"},{"start":8582.331,"end":8582.591,"text":"主席"},{"start":8595.799,"end":8605.546,"text":"二、審查本院委員及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）"},{"start":8616.834,"end":8638.603,"text":"二、審查本院議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。�"},{"start":8638.643,"end":8666.829,"text":"二、審查本院議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。�"},{"start":8670.342,"end":8670.362,"text":"委員（"},{"start":8689.692,"end":8703.26,"text":"一、審查一、審查二、審查三、審查四、審查五、審查六、審查七、審查八、審查九、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、"},{"start":8717.27,"end":8717.31,"text":"主席"},{"start":8734.984,"end":8750.58,"text":"二、審查本院委員及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）二、審查本院委員及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）完整會議二、審查本院委員及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）完整會議"},{"start":8752.398,"end":8771.798,"text":"二、審查本院議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。）如未接獲議議員陳冠廷等30人擬具:「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案。�"},{"start":8794.617,"end":8797.199,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會接下來我們請陳培宇委員發言謝謝"},{"start":8805.165,"end":8805.185,"text":"陳婉嫻議員"},{"start":8814.915,"end":8831.923,"text":"委員好部長您好我們只有4分鐘一樣繼續關心這個國產乳的學童乳的政策在之前會期的質詢的時候部長已經承諾答應會把這個國產乳的部分放進學童營養午餐對不對但是這個政策我覺得我們國人要一起關心其實從2013年馬政府時代就開放這個台紐協定導致"},{"start":8835.825,"end":8863.973,"text":"我們現在一路以來要面對這個問題那明年全面開放我們知道我們手上有一份農業部給我們的資料你們其實不管是在生產環境或是提升產品的消費的部分或者是穩定肉牛的部分你們都已經在做相關資源的盤點了但是我們這邊要快速確認一下因為今天已經五月多了那學校的營養午餐採購案要準備開始了進行到九月的部分那關於這個血統乳的部分目前相關的進度或者是跟教育部目前討論的狀況"},{"start":8865.493,"end":8891.222,"text":"我想跟委員說明我們跟教育部部長我親自跟他部長有討論過而且我們也兩個部位會嫌會嫌報行政院然後預計是在那個九月份的那個時間開始那現在就是可能要看行政院是不是要等到520以後再處理我不知道這個我不瞭解因為我們已經抱怨了那我們希望說能夠盡快的就是"},{"start":8892.122,"end":8913.165,"text":"能夠有一個明確的答案然後後續的規劃大概一個禮拜兩餐嘛那比較重要就是後面的牛奶的供應我們不希望被特定的現在大的盧賓長綁住了我們希望說能夠讓小農有沒有這些小的弱農能夠結合起來它是產品是被確認過的然後有一個平台能夠供應"},{"start":8914.026,"end":8941.114,"text":"這個我們現在做後面細部的連結應該是說後續有非常非常多落地的政策跟細節對需要農業部跟教育部確實需要好好溝通如同您剛剛說的到底供應的頻率是多少還有目前我們聽到之前部長告訴我們說目前只有落在國小端可是如果回到農業部補助三張EQ的這個議題其實到國中端甚至還有完中的高中部那這個部分有沒有機會往下延伸"},{"start":8941.954,"end":8956.842,"text":"以我個人來講我當然希望國小、國中甚至到高中、完中的部分但是這牽扯到整個經費的來源跟經費的額度啦那這個部分我想我們如果有機因為我想以過去的慣例行政院一定會開一個專案會議那我會在專案會議去表達我們的一個期待"},{"start":8962.553,"end":8987.202,"text":"所以我想如果要等到520之後才來討論那我們辦公室也會先跟部長這邊討論到底我們目前看到第一線營養午餐如果要把血統乳放進去可能還會發生一些問題我們辦公室也會積極再跟農業部討論包含其實也有南部的區立委提醒我們薄酒乳可能是比較適合北部的血統他們在運送端比較方便可是如果在南部的話其實如果是冷藏的鮮奶是更好的"},{"start":8988.242,"end":9013.618,"text":"部長這個部份假設有像這樣雙軌制目前你們有規劃進去嗎?我們當然沒有排除可是我們更擔心的是有些學童喝一半他不了解他把他收了帶回家喝那就反而會有食安的問題反而會有食安我們擔心的是這個而且教育部也擔心這個對我們確實會有更多的配套那其實還有家長提醒我們有些小孩他有乳糖過敏但也不是合乎有牛乳但相關的預算資源撥補下去之後"},{"start":9015.76,"end":9035.879,"text":"最後一個部分我們看到農業部有提到相關的乳品消費未來還要納入所謂的弱勢跟長者的供應這個部分目前的規劃進度是?我們當初的一個構想就是說現在目前的牛奶本身我們的合理的目標值應該是43萬噸但是實際上大概現在46今年可能到49"},{"start":9037.06,"end":9054.036,"text":"所以我們在這樣的過程中如果說他沒有辦法達到一個目標的時候那我們會啟動一個吼就是類似透過綠色造物的關係的一個就是另外一個平台機制去消化掉這些是我們不要說消化掉啦就把這些牛奶提供給需要的弱勢的團體透過我們綠色造物"},{"start":9055.697,"end":9055.797,"text":"謝謝陳委員 謝謝陳部長 謝謝"},{"start":9084.437,"end":9084.457,"text":"紅夢開委員"},{"start":9106.771,"end":9129.25,"text":"陳代理部長,520之後才會徵處。不過不管怎麼樣,重點在於是一定要被為我國人把關。早上我們有委員也已經有出示說有國小的學童有關心現在有所謂的這個進口乳跟民要變成是長效乳來保護落農的生計。部長有看到這個明信片嗎?"},{"start":9129.87,"end":9140.436,"text":"我沒有看到但是那個委員有那種唸是我也唸一下因為我覺得這真的是讓國人以及讓學童都知道他說是"},{"start":9142.225,"end":9162.841,"text":"臺南某地區的六年級學生經過班級乳牛專題課程之後得知2025年紐西蘭液態乳進口恐嚴重影響我國酪農業請你支持修法採取行動將校期達兩個月以上的進口乳更名為長效乳以保障我國酪農生計"},{"start":9165.391,"end":9177.343,"text":"農業部有沒有收到這樣的一個信?我本身沒有收到,沒有收到。好,那是不是等一下我質詢完,我也把這一份也送給我們部長,好不好?因為我想這也代表是說我們這個"},{"start":9178.968,"end":9194.98,"text":"一般的民眾大家都願意關心的話那代表這是好事那更重點是說現在部長之前有講到是說進口乳要更名為長效乳是跟衛福部食藥署建議那目前的進度到底為何我們這樣子齁就是現在目前的一個"},{"start":9196.041,"end":9196.101,"text":"﹚立法院議員"},{"start":9215.124,"end":9215.825,"text":"衛福部的動作如何?"},{"start":9233.378,"end":9258.229,"text":"對於國人來講是這不能說拆兩段啊因為政府是一體的嘛我想我們也很急到所以我想我們也會再持續的跟衛務部溝通因為啟動開專家會議或相關的決定是由衛務部來做相關的權責嘛所以我們會積極的跟衛務部來洽談看看可不可以請他們快一點的確認因為這牽扯到我們後續的國產乳的一個標示的區隔的一個有效的作為"},{"start":9259.704,"end":9274.152,"text":"那好那這樣子部長因為現在衛福部他有可能520之後才有新任部長要上任是但是你這邊是徵處嗎所以國人當然會希望是說我們一體的趕快來作業趕快來把這樣子一個國人所關心的議題給把它確認"},{"start":9276.425,"end":9277.725,"text":"部長,之前有提到說農業部要一個月內提出相關方案,那是什麼樣的方案?"},{"start":9300.834,"end":9329.513,"text":"整個內容本身長效爐只是在整個落農去支持落農產業的一個方案那這個部分講的是長效爐的部分但是我們提的方案是一個完整的從那個牧場的端到整個的一個加工端早上有講到是說總共方案是29億的預算那個方案我們已經抱怨了對是那什麼時候會出來因為現在有看到是說很多的落農業者都還要計劃直接北上"},{"start":9330.333,"end":9356.604,"text":"那會不會在520之前反而我們新任政府新任總統要上任之後同時間會有抗議抗議草?我想以農業部的立場就是我們政策是持續的而且我們已經抱怨了那抱怨我所了解現在大概在上個禮拜嘛上個禮拜已經進到國會審完已經進到行政院了那我們也透過管道希望說行政院能夠能夠盡快的去做這樣的一個核試因為"},{"start":9357.404,"end":9361.726,"text":"所以部長我比較直接請教有沒有信心能夠拆彈成功讓弱農業者不要北上來抗議有沒有信心"},{"start":9383.273,"end":9409.488,"text":"因為如果說既然方案也提出來你也掌握這個時間那還有就是說我們現在政府並不是不做事啊其實你看得出來說我們也要照顧我們的弱農業者我們要照顧我們的名稱需求那有沒有信心我想我個人來講我會盡最大的努力那我相信應該可以好我相信應該可以我們一起努力好不好謝謝部長那部長這一份資料也請您帶回去好謝謝洪國元謝謝陳部長謝謝"},{"start":9413.713,"end":9413.993,"text":"陳冠廷發言陳部長"},{"start":9438.869,"end":9452.668,"text":"今天是要反映一下關於這個雞蛋產地跟批發價價格下跌那有一些消費者他們有特別談到說為什麼消費端他沒有辦法降價的部分那我們來看一下下一個圖表"},{"start":9454.128,"end":9473.768,"text":"其實這個雞蛋的蛋價已經連續兩週它下跌那已經創下兩年的新低那產地的價格現在每公斤只剩抱歉每斤剩35.5元相當於35元的成本那臺北的批發價也從去年高點的55元跌到現在的45元所以說跌幅已經超過18%"},{"start":9475.109,"end":9495.936,"text":"那我們接到一些氧基協會的這些訊息他是說端午節端午節會是淡季那很憂心淡價的崩盤部長想請教一下那產地淡價下跌批發市場淡價下跌那消費端的這個部分包含便利商店啊或者是很多我們會去光顧的早餐店這個淡價有下跌嗎"},{"start":9497.233,"end":9518.722,"text":"我跟委員說明就是整個雞蛋的一個價格的波動我想我們原則上還是尊重市場的機制那因為產地跟批發跟農業部比較有關的他可能跟短時間之內的需求跟供應會有一些波動性的調整那這個我想我們隨時在監控我現在最重要的是消費端根本不理我們"},{"start":9520.038,"end":9531.704,"text":"就是說你產地消費平均大概降了10塊,最高點嘛,大概10塊了可是產地端本身它總有很多很多的理由就是不動如山啦那我覺得這個部分"},{"start":9533.427,"end":9554.44,"text":"的確是我們該重視的問題因為我們當然是尊重市場機制市場機制基本上是這個我們國家基本上信實的價值的原則那如果多次的這種干預的話反而會擾亂市場機制但是產地漲價消費端跟著漲價是合理的但是你說產地價格大跌"},{"start":9554.94,"end":9555.18,"text":"市場有這個這個價格的一個"},{"start":9578.14,"end":9598.234,"text":"等於說有被刻意操縱的時候我想政府內部應該有一個機制包括可以請公民會這邊來介入一些一些瞭解但是現在的那個雞蛋本身的那個價格不下來是普遍性的他不是說特定的一個一個超商不降幾乎包括早餐店他也不怎麼降"},{"start":9599.054,"end":9626.724,"text":"所以它變成是一個普遍性那普遍性的問題可能要另外一個機制去處理我們今天提這個意思不是說我們要求說他們一定要降或者說哪一個一定要漲或是說在市場機制的能夠容許的範圍之內當然是要依照市場機制所以說為什麼我們今天為什麼要提出相關的我們今天的草案的修正為什麼會提出這一個第35條的修正條文就是希望農產品的市場交易不要受到擾亂那這些價格的快速波動我想這是農業部苦惱的問題"},{"start":9628.204,"end":9651.903,"text":"那這種消費者痛苦然後農產品暴跌農民血本無歸那不管是消費者或者是農民我們怎麼樣讓他價格平穩那當然就是我們農業部最重要的工作那包含我們的颱風漲價學都有時候臨近的國家開始發布漲颱風警報颱風還沒有來葉菜金就全部都先漲一波就算後來沒有登錄但是價格還是不會立即下降"},{"start":9653.223,"end":9681.582,"text":"這樣我們認為說每次這樣臺芬新習一出來的話大龐商可能就又割了一波所以另外就是透過社群媒體的錯假亂訊息今天早上我有特別提到只要重商某一項農產品他就可以吸引平面媒體、電視媒體、社群媒體來去引者消費者的恐慌比方說保齡案就是這樣子因為一開始找不到元兇所以馬上這個不斷的在社群媒體在放話說啊這個餐廳的木耳有問題啊那結果消費者恐慌結果我們影響到我們嘉義縣中埔鄉的產地"},{"start":9682.463,"end":9701.381,"text":"甚至他們有一些本來已經要輸入給軍方的啊 通常又臨時就停止當然我們是尊重國防部軍方自己的這種決定嘛其實說因為這種消費端的這種恐慌或者是說有人特意操弄導致整個農產品甚至整個農產業全面性的這一個被"},{"start":9702.402,"end":9710.848,"text":"被影響到這當然是非常負面的所以我們需要說部長這一次齁包含我看農業部第一時間都有出來去提這個問題嘛那當然還有衛福部有第一時間就講說哪一些產品與此無關哪一些產品有關哪一些產品無關"},{"start":9717.853,"end":9734.398,"text":"那馬上就有做釐清所以第一波有止血那未來希望說部長這個委員之後類似這樣的狀況第一時間農業部就要直接介入去了解那第一時間就要把最快速的訊息再提供給特別是危機訊息的管理很重要因為那時候我記得行政院"},{"start":9735.851,"end":9753.404,"text":"的這個相關的這個還特別扯到其他的扯到茶那我不想再在這個傷害那一位齁這個行政官員我只是要提一下說傳遞正確的興趣不要影響到農產品這十案的問題的時候特別需要農業部出來阿第一時間就要出來不要讓他們"},{"start":9755.345,"end":9779.695,"text":"傳一些錯誤訊息都再出來第一時間就趕快結合各縣市的農會一起合作把這些問題提出來的話我們就可以有效克制了解謝謝委員我們針對錯假訊息本身我們有一個機制包括網路的一些搜尋然後包括媒體的這些比較不實的訊息我們都會第一時間就去處理這個部分我想我們會加強努力謝謝好謝謝陳委員謝謝陳部長謝謝接下來請賴世保委員發言"},{"start":9791.555,"end":9819.905,"text":"謝謝主席一級各位先進有請農業部的陳部長請陳部長來委員長部長一長那麼一個恭喜你了齁爭取了另外一個要求我知道你在代理部長這段時間你很怕出狀況好幾個委員跟你要資料都不給啊都不給啊"},{"start":9821.984,"end":9846.897,"text":"我現在跟你講的這些資料都是其他部會來的,我要同樣東西財政部給我,關路的東西給我,衛福部給我,食藥署的給我,農運部不給,說機密。我想說你剛才就是呼吁你的裡面的一個亂七八糟的事情有工吧,所以你爭取啊,我就一個要求,拜託你也拜託,"},{"start":9849.793,"end":9850.88,"text":"我們去問要資料可以給嗎?"},{"start":9851.96,"end":9875.867,"text":"不過我想跟委員說明齁以我個人的立場齁如果能夠給的資料我一定給當然要給啊但是有一些資料不是我能夠決定的時候我就必須要去請教農業部有什麼資料我都是要比如說我要你進口單的資料這該給吧對進口單的資料有非常多因為本身因為所有的執行都是在續產會那你不給啊你管不到續產會不是這個不是管的問題齁請問你續產會的錢從什麼地方來"},{"start":9879.068,"end":9903.761,"text":"不是,市長會有一部分的部分他不是百分之百都是農業部的錢喔農業部錢有多少給他我想會根據計畫方式多少給他,你多少就是看每一年的執行的情況啊最少六七八成嘛對,但是對,相對的就是他沒有辦法每年平均要多少錢占幾成,他的支出多少錢我們大概補八成八成啊"},{"start":9908.558,"end":9909.558,"text":"我跟委員說明齁我絕對不會考慮說長官叫我做什麼我做什麼"},{"start":9930.268,"end":9946.518,"text":"我是要確認說我所給的訊息第一個要正確那第二個就是說這個訊息是不是我農業部可以提供的當然可以提供為什麼我現在跟你講來你們的你們在公告農作房置地1121483343號"},{"start":9950.621,"end":9962.198,"text":"對公布了美國有好幾個州包括紐約州包括Utah是疫區是群流感疫區是結果你11月還進口33噸啊53萬顆啊"},{"start":9967.219,"end":9967.479,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":9991.253,"end":9997.94,"text":"來你10月12公告公告的結果呢結果你11月還有進來UTA11月進來14萬噸12月進來33萬噸我是客氣這12月的12月的這12月的所以不是你剛講的那個時間差都沒有這個資料這個資料"},{"start":10012.395,"end":10023.427,"text":"這個資料是我財政部找的資料財政部的資料你10月份公布Utah是一區11月你給它進來14萬噸14萬噸乘以16顆是多少100多萬顆啊然後你12月又給它進來的33萬噸"},{"start":10033.358,"end":10059.693,"text":"這是財政部的資料我就跟你講這個所以你們嚴重失職阿我告訴你如果是真的如委員所講就是嚴重失職但是我相信我們的房檢署絕對不會做這種事情一定是在資料上面的認知上有一些誤解我覺得我可以請房檢署因為今天房檢署的同仁沒有來齁我可以請房檢署到您的辦公室去確認這件事情好你來跟我確認我一定會跟您確認我再次的公布我再跟你講"},{"start":10060.734,"end":10067.995,"text":"10月10號去年的10月10號你公布了美國好幾個州包括紐約包括UTA他是一區"},{"start":10069.805,"end":10094.02,"text":"結果U塔十一月進來十二月進來都一直進口進來疫區不能進來你看金門的蛋就是因為在大陸疫區就不敢進來我跟委員說明喔防監署本身是邊境把關者他不可能照您這樣講的去違法部長再請農業部跟補貸委員說明好不好另外一個題目就是九月份這個你應該知道吧"},{"start":10094.929,"end":10117.579,"text":"你們的土耳其蛋還在法官那裡有86萬顆在那裡53噸的蛋就是說檢驗合格了也沒有報關也沒有進來你知道這批嗎土耳其的蛋您說去年的9月對"},{"start":10119.281,"end":10148.49,"text":"昨年九月我所瞭解齁我記憶中所瞭解土耳其的這些這是在邊境把關的時候去檢測出來的他並沒有進到我們的市場沒有進來對對沒有進來市場有53萬噸來現在在哪裡沒有我覺得要確認一下齁因為到了九月多十月的時候有很多也是民間自己進口的所以我要確認一下您這個的訊息部長是不是回去查清楚這個奈委員做什麼土耳其本有癌症的你們有沒有求償"},{"start":10151.109,"end":10162.03,"text":"已經發生了已經發生不是我們的部分在海關就擋下來了做銷毀那至於說民間自己進來的我們還要去了解"},{"start":10162.962,"end":10163.462,"text":"接下來請張家俊委員發言"},{"start":10196.058,"end":10223.474,"text":"主席我想請部長好請陳部長部長前陣子好雨連連那我想要首先先讓你看一下就是這幾張照片現在是西瓜的採收期那本席最近收到很多農民的陳情最近因為連續下雨雨水浸泡導致很多西瓜裂果包括台西四湖東勢二輪"},{"start":10225.035,"end":10226.056,"text":"李卓人議員李卓人議員"},{"start":10250.293,"end":10258.099,"text":"是否可以競速宣布將雲林的受災西瓜田納入天然災害救助補助?"},{"start":10263.12,"end":10268.205,"text":"目前據我所知是台西四湖東市的四方會刊已經確定達到補助標準那我就問這個部長請問一公頃西瓜補助多少錢"},{"start":10285.36,"end":10309.052,"text":"應該6萬6萬2左右6萬2所以呢這個部分喔既然喔已經啟動了符合了標準開始啟動這個天然災害救助的話希望部裡面這邊可以從速喔競速的來進行相關的流程一定會齁就是四萬會關結束以後縣府就會報農糧署我們就會很快的就會核定了如果說四萬會關過的話就沒問題你看這個瓜裂成這樣"},{"start":10310.929,"end":10317.185,"text":"有沒有西瓜的照片大一點這個你看這整片田都是喔整片田都是"},{"start":10318.44,"end":10341.579,"text":"整片田都是裂光所以這一點拜託我們部長就是天然災害的救助要重減、重寬、重速然後能夠盡速的來幫助農民減少損失是不是可以我想我們一定針對這個相關的現看的結果會盡速的發布是謝謝那部長我想要請問您花生年產值大概是多少"},{"start":10342.895,"end":10369.19,"text":"花生大概一年大概是一萬八千公頃大概三十多萬的產量啦然後看它產地價的話產地價的話大概是現在七十幾塊嘛大概算起來大概是二十多將近三十億那在這期中喔雲林大概占了八成左右那再請教您喔花生的產期是什麼時候您知道嗎"},{"start":10369.85,"end":10395.126,"text":"花生的產期分一期做跟二期做的部分然後一期做的一期做大概六月五六月的時候開始採收嘛那現在我們收到的是去年二期做的部分去年二期做二期做就是11月到12月那當時我們加入WTO的時候我們把配額內的這個額度分散在非產期以避免對產業產生太大的衝擊"},{"start":10397.708,"end":10413.461,"text":"那配額內的關稅較低所以在花生產期內也就是6至7月還有最主要的11至12月如果要進口就是配額外進口關稅比較高那所以呢大概在每公斤64.5元的關稅之上要加21塊那請部長記住21塊這個數字照理來說配額外的"},{"start":10421.087,"end":10421.567,"text":"一、二年11月印度進口100公噸"},{"start":10437.196,"end":10466.436,"text":"一二年十二月印度進口202公噸一二年十二月阿根廷進口100公噸這是從關務署所調到的相關數字那在去年配額外的時間印度跟阿根廷竟然有大量的花生進口那估算這個時間點進口的花生成本其實大大超過了國產花生成本是不是應該去了解為什麼這個時間點會有大量的花生進口呢我想"},{"start":10467.136,"end":10487.432,"text":"一百一十二年因為遇到小水颱風所以我們的產量有適度的降低所以我們的價格還不錯比起前幾年所以貿易商往往會認為說他的價格不錯的時候我如果用國外進口的話我可能會比較好賺所以我們在評估說可能會有一些因為這樣子而進口的"},{"start":10487.912,"end":10494.958,"text":"不是不可能但是呢我算一個簡單的算數好不好你自己再看下一個這上面寫阿根廷106萬除以21理應就是這個12月的進口數量然後53萬再除以21應該就是印度的進口量結果阿根廷是攪鬧了大概這個"},{"start":10510.251,"end":10529.885,"text":"五萬多公斤左右的稅所以他只繳納了就是50.7公噸的額外關稅那印度是繳納了大概是25公噸的額外關稅所以50加25等於75公噸那但是明明就進了明明就進了100加202公噸那剩下的227公噸到哪裡去了"},{"start":10538.766,"end":10545.708,"text":"你聽得懂嗎我了解但是相對的當他有進口資料的時候他就會去繳稅他不可能進來以後賣了以後再繳稅所以啊所以就很奇怪啊那個消失的227公噸去哪裡了現在坊間盛傳去年就有聽聞說可能有駐外單位使用關稅法第49條之相關免稅規定進口本席呢不願意猜測但是所以我要拜託"},{"start":10567.156,"end":10567.196,"text":"主席"},{"start":10597.096,"end":10598.357,"text":"臺灣從2002年加入WTO之後目前花生的關稅為64.5塊是不是應該提高基礎的這個關稅額度"},{"start":10613.194,"end":10632.583,"text":"因為近年來工資啊材料成本都大幅提高那施工環境變遷之下應該要有所檢討這一點也拜託部長演議也請部長為農民著想一定要提高這個基礎的稅額才有辦法保障農民一整年辛苦農作的這樣子的成果"},{"start":10633.257,"end":10651.477,"text":"我跟委員說明齁那個稅不能隨便說我們今天想要的我知道但是你要努力嘛我會用更好的產業的支持的方式去協助我們的產品的競爭力而不是用關於那是不是可以拜託部長把你更好的支持產業的方法部長的一個書面是要給我上來的嗎是要給本席謝謝"},{"start":10657.491,"end":10676.958,"text":"馬文君、馬文君、馬文君委員不在。蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。黃國昌、黃國昌、黃國昌委員不在。徐欣盈、徐欣盈、徐欣盈委員不在。李柏毅、李柏毅、李柏毅委員不在。洪聖漢、洪聖漢、洪聖漢委員不在。李燕秀、李燕秀、李燕秀委員不在。請蔡益委員發言"},{"start":10688.059,"end":10697.869,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是有請我們部長請陳部長也請我們署長那個農糧署署署署署署署署署署署署部長"},{"start":10701.906,"end":10728.017,"text":"部長事實上我昨天在嘉義就是役主那以及這個嘉義市農會我開了兩個公聽會那我們署署長都有全程那聽也聆聽很多農民的聲音那我擷取幾個比較我認為比較重要可以馬上跟部長來來做討論的第一個就是說現在我們整個農業部我們這個農事所"},{"start":10731.218,"end":10748.202,"text":"也就是改良廠針對稻穀的一個新的一個種類新的種苗種類我感覺啦這幾年一直沒有推出比較大眾化會被農民接受的種類這幾年啦為什麼感覺上是沒有推出什麼那我要講的就是說"},{"start":10758.527,"end":10770.179,"text":"部長你應該叫農民以現在雲家就是所謂稻米的大宗他們都在種的是哪幾種嗎?第一個就是大概就是...都台南11號啦台南11號嘛台南11號啊台南11號用多久啊?"},{"start":10774.443,"end":10800.414,"text":"我跟委員報告其實就稻米的產業來講單一的品種種單一的品種反而不是好事遇到病狀害的時候沒有緩衝所以我們現在積極的在不同的地區推廣它特色的產品包括像美濃地區的高雄義士七一有沒有然後它的香米系統霧峰的香米的系統然後桃園的部分也有一些不同的品種那我們也會去研議說像農事所"},{"start":10802.415,"end":10803.136,"text":"臺農長期間就是進台南寨一河"},{"start":10822.538,"end":10843.851,"text":"他已經每一天都凍結所以像他過去他的白糖胚就已經都有抗藥性了所以他每一次的盜熱病就非常嚴重所以過去有幾次的嚴重的盜熱病之後農民就會怕到他怕到之後他就要改做抗藥性比較強的也就是台農84號台農84號他的抗藥性比較強可是他的產量是沒有台南11號多"},{"start":10850.575,"end":10873.026,"text":"事實上我主要感覺起來,主要變成好像只有這兩個選擇,阿伯你就選11盒,阿伯你如果走白塘海你就選84盒,阿84盒沒辦法收公牛,所以農民大概也會覺得很失落,因為他覺得對他而言他沒有那麼強的銷售能力,他沒辦法賣給主營牛,他也希望交公牛比較多。"},{"start":10874.227,"end":10881.91,"text":"所以部長我意思是說我們不應該我們農事所應該要推出更多品種讓他們有新的選擇啊為什麼我們在雲家這麼重要的這個稻米的生產基地看起來農民就只有這兩個選擇在那邊痛苦"},{"start":10904.194,"end":10918.328,"text":"委員報告,這個部分我回去會要求農業實驗單位針對這些我們大的糧倉的產區,不論只有一個品種,這第一個。第二點就是說,不在市喔,那時候我都農事做收定委員,它的品種抗病性很好。"},{"start":10918.968,"end":10942.938,"text":"但是他如果萬一早收的時候他的清免率會過高所以造成一些後續的困擾所以那時候才沒有考慮到納入公糧但是在那個地區還有其他的品種是可以去推廣的我想我們會更積極的去做這樣的一個處理如果可以推廣我看農民都很厲害啦他們一定會找出一個最適當的種植的一個產品"},{"start":10946.199,"end":10956.083,"text":"所以我們若提供他們覺得可以他們就會去請我意思是說你像台農84號已經撒出來十幾年了事實上這個很早就要確認說啊好我們若大家納入公糧就趕緊農民去請好你若怕說他的廁所他的這個收割的時候會產生一個比較早收割廁所的狀況這樣就要給他扶著了"},{"start":10973.155,"end":10987.808,"text":"而不是把他放著嘛我了解我們就把他放著然後這情況一直沒有改變我現在最不想看到就是說為什麼這樣雲嘉南這樣的糧倉那他們一直是在做這個台南11號跟這個台農84號這兩個選項二則一然後各有優缺點"},{"start":10992.992,"end":10993.132,"text":"主席"},{"start":11012.289,"end":11025.376,"text":"阿這個品種怎麼樣讓跟產業結合我想我們後續會朝這方面去努力阿好我希望可以齁加速啦齁可以我們趕快看到一點成績齁阿第二個齁每天我們展廣場會我們有話講啦就是這個雜糧的問題啦"},{"start":11027.717,"end":11054.355,"text":"因為現在大家都在討論所謂供糧但是我們也知道整個農業部這幾年來很努力的就是要推廣防小育也就是說我們的糧食自給率應該要朝向說我們每次生產不夠都要靠進口的就是戰牛嘛、有米嘛甚至高粱嘛我們在提升這部分的一個種植的一個空間的時候事實上力道都不夠"},{"start":11055.456,"end":11078.257,"text":"阿這個力道不夠勒,就是說你種植雜糧的,他的收入永遠都比種植稻米的還要少。那這樣他們怎麼會有誘因勒?除了天天條件的一個限制之外,你若白白灌枯,可是你讓他種植雜糧,他的收入勒,不會輸於一般的稻農,這樣當然就有誘因啊,就會耍鬼啊。"},{"start":11079.54,"end":11079.82,"text":"是不是部長?"},{"start":11099.281,"end":11119.444,"text":"部長那個高粱的部分我們另外再談玉米的部分我現在也是在跟現在所有的進口玉米業者在談玉米現在飼料進口大概是8塊多但是我們還是用9塊去收那我是希望說業者進口業者能夠有一些機制能夠來提高他們的收購價那"},{"start":11121.26,"end":11148.266,"text":"那個產品的收購價能夠提高的時候,前端就有它的種植誘因。部長沒有那麼簡單啦,我覺得齁,應該要適度的要去檢討這個高科啦。對啦。你這個高科的東西齁,你就是保價這一塊啦。你如果這塊都沒條件,三十幾年來文風不動齁,事實上你對於整個種植玉米的誘因是一直沒辦法產生的。了解。那我本來有要列舉的這樣的一個成本,要在這算賬給部長廳,沒辦法來時間的因素啦齁。"},{"start":11149.166,"end":11159.715,"text":"這我要呈現的就是說你看起來現在整個成本吼你的身份一分多啦我現在來算吼存的都不要加什麼租金什麼就五千九百三十三十個"},{"start":11160.646,"end":11172.836,"text":"二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．二、審查本院委員．"},{"start":11188.129,"end":11200.553,"text":"就是五六七零還比他的成本還要低這個代表著一個意義就是說我今天有米我錢起來我拿去買啊我買了我拿到的錢比我進走的時候我開啟的身份還要少"},{"start":11203.634,"end":11228.013,"text":"這樣一個誘因起來就會變成說農民對於種植玉米是沒有誘因的誘因是不足的所以我的目標就是說我想要把這個9塊拉高的時候我希望是企業就是買最後買玉米的人齁能夠做有所的投入啦這樣子的話才有辦法把這個9塊往上拉部長是不是在研議之後再跟蔡委員說明了好不好好好啊不然再麻煩了好謝謝謝謝蔡委員謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":11232.341,"end":11252.216,"text":"接下來,謝一鳳、謝一鳳、謝一鳳委員不在。登記發言委員除不在場者外,區域經營已發言完畢,懸答結束。委員黃珊珊、邱益穎、謝一鳳,所提書面諮詢列入記錄,刊登公報。書面諮詢和為其答覆部分,請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會。"},{"start":11258.433,"end":11274.873,"text":"我們先處理討論事項第二案農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案現在進行廣泛討論廣泛討論無人登記發言請議事人員宣讀條文如果修正動議及附帶決議一併宣讀宣讀完畢我們進行協商請宣讀"},{"start":11277.438,"end":11301.488,"text":"委員陳冠廷等所提農產品市場交易法第三十五條違反第六條第一項第十四條第一項規定者處新台幣六萬元以上三千萬元以下罰還其領有許可證者並廢止許可證違反第六條第二項規定足深損害農產品運銷秩序者處新台幣六萬元以上一千萬元以下罰還宣讀完畢"},{"start":11310.529,"end":11311.23,"text":"先處理預算解凍案稍等會員進來再處理"},{"start":11347.022,"end":11347.162,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":11553.968,"end":11575,"text":"好謝謝各位那我們現在處理預算解凍案那第一案的部分農業部第一案所列預算解凍案我們同意動之請問各位有沒有異議沒有那我們通過農業部第二案所列的預算凍結案我們同意動之請問各位有沒有異議沒有啦沒有我們通過有喔來來來請邱志文"},{"start":11586.652,"end":11586.832,"text":"請邱委員發言"},{"start":11599.281,"end":11622.509,"text":"就是說極端氣候造成這些特殊的這個農作物變成長不是不是這個我發現變常態性的減產比如說你這個我剛剛說的愈合包愈合包他如果因為高溫造成產量劣減像這種東西你們必須要在農業管理去編列相關的"},{"start":11623.729,"end":11645.282,"text":"改善計畫還是用什麼方式來避免這種常態性的發生如果每年他都是遇到這高溫然後又又累減收入減少這個農民生計他一年才一次產計那到底這個農業管理的這些經費有沒有包含對這些受受受氣候影響的這些所所造成的影響"},{"start":11647.315,"end":11668.422,"text":"委員說明現在我們相關的這些計畫裡面都是在做產業的輔導那並沒有針對剛才委員所說的將它產量降到某個程度的時候我們有一個支持性的一個補助的作為那我想我們這個部分我回去會用保險的角度看看用保險的角度去做處理可能會比較實在"},{"start":11669.977,"end":11670.077,"text":"臺風已逝﹗"},{"start":11686.338,"end":11687.019,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":11705.649,"end":11734.525,"text":"好那第二案的部分各位有沒有意見我們來請邱志偉來也是一樣這個養牛齁養牛包括落農你這個養牛產業要升級轉型有沒有包括落農就最主要就是落農的部分那主要為什麼要轉型我想齁最主要是面臨的這些台牛的這些對台牛嘛對台牛的那個自由貿易的那些牛奶的進口對"},{"start":11736.852,"end":11761.131,"text":"所以你這個怎麼樣去輔導這個落農全面轉型升級這部分到底你們這次有沒有效果我想我們這整個方案現在已經抱怨了那整個的額度大概是29億那我們從那個寡產的乳牛淘汰會先著手讓我們的乳牛的生產效率會提高然後我們在市場上會做這個"},{"start":11763.332,"end":11779.52,"text":"國內的鮮乳的標示讓它做市場的區隔化最後拉力的部分我們會針對學童營養午餐的部分能夠把牛奶納進去然後也會針對一些弱勢族群我們會提供一個供應的系統讓那個拉力去維持"},{"start":11780.342,"end":11805.193,"text":"那最重要就是說讓我們的國產本身的這些競爭力還是能夠存在我再請教一下部長國內肉牛產業目前這個市佔率大概多少?現在肉牛大部分都是用乳牛淘汰過去去當作肉牛去處理的九成九成大部分都九成進口九成進口所以一成是那你這個所以沒有真正的肉牛產業嘛"},{"start":11805.964,"end":11807.966,"text":"因為是不是國產牛肉跟進口牛肉相對競爭力比較不夠成本相對的比較高"},{"start":11829.89,"end":11835.493,"text":"農業部的預算凍結案第一案到第三案均同意凍結並拟據報告提報院會"},{"start":11853.541,"end":11854.002,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11879.607,"end":11895.587,"text":"主席各位委員大家好我請代表法務部在這裡報告幾點意見提供參考那第一點按照憲法第15條保障人民參選權國家對人民參選權限制應符憲法第二三條比例原則對人民違反行政法上義務行為處以罰還"},{"start":11897.069,"end":11919.554,"text":"涉及對人民財產權的限制﹐其處罰應視違規情節的輕重程度為之必符合憲法﹐責罰相當原則﹐必發者針對應與非難之違反行政法上義務行為的處罰﹐應預留違規情節輕重而以處罰範圍固屬立法形成自由﹐予上應與尊重﹐為所設定的裁量範圍仍應適當﹐以避免造成個案處罰顯然過客而有輕重法﹐"},{"start":11920.154,"end":11939.1,"text":"請清法重之情形。這是司法院釋字第786號解釋意旨請參照。依前所述．對於違反行政義務上的行為．在政策上欲刻以法案為處罰方式時．應有合理上限規定．其上限術以綜合考量行為人之行為違規情節之輕重程度．"},{"start":11939.78,"end":11956.199,"text":"現在公共利益情形等因素為合理規定以無限法第23條規定比例原則與這法相當原則（而且行為人所得利益倘若超過法定法案最高數額者採處法案上可依行政法法第18條第二項規定佐量加重不受法定法案最高額度的限制"},{"start":11956.98,"end":11982.833,"text":"因此,第三點,基於函則行為人違法勤節及有效遏阻不法行為之考量．在法制作業上．罰完額度日上下限差具倍數．原則上以3倍至5倍為宜．必要時得依立法目的考量提高為6倍至10倍．真相,基於達成特別重大公共利益考量．另有必要擴大的話．還是建議參酌司法院釋字第786號解釋文解釋意旨．設定釋章的採取範圍。第四點,"},{"start":11986.212,"end":12008.187,"text":"關於各行政作用法這法案的話建議要注意到它的橫平性原則那我在這裡舉例就是以農業部主管的法案來講的話農產品生產及驗證管理法第二十七條它裡面有規定說對於散播有關農產品的這個謠言或不實訊息的話處罰環是六萬到三十萬"},{"start":12009.068,"end":12033.85,"text":"另外,《糧食管理法》第十五條之一也有規範不得故意散播謠言或不實訊息。在《糧食管理法》第十八條之三也有規定對違反者處罰的法案是六萬到三十萬。同樣屬於農業部主管的法律來講彼此之間性質上是有比較相近的地方"},{"start":12035.891,"end":12041.673,"text":"你意思是說要有一致性?對,橫平性相類似的話,建議是橫平性相關的罰則,處罰精神,它的罰則應該是要有橫平性跟一致性那這個有沒有修正動議?"},{"start":12053.237,"end":12076.565,"text":"我先把它說完好了好不好,請法務部把它先說明是,那在這裡就是說我們是尊重大院的審查以及這個主管機關的意見因為還有特別可以跟各位委員報告一個可以參考的就是去年大院所通過的政卷投資信託及顧問法增訂第113條之一對於這個平台業者他那個不下架廣告的話他的處罰還是12萬到60萬"},{"start":12078.826,"end":12103.079,"text":"那所以說我是在這裡給這個各位的建議就是說假設認為說有必要要提高的話我是建議說那個法案的級距不要差距的拉的過大那第二個就是說假設說認為上限應該提高的話那下限是不是也酌情把它提高上去那第三個就是說這三個法案農產品"},{"start":12104.991,"end":12105.011,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":12136.721,"end":12154.548,"text":"邱志榮,請現行條文是6萬以上跟30萬以下罰款跟費政那你現在這個陳委員的提案那是6萬以上跟3000萬以下剛剛你們的報告也都寫得很清楚就是要一致跟和平性"},{"start":12155.836,"end":12173.893,"text":"那你們也建議說這個把下限把它提高下限提高我覺得也可以那如果用5倍或者10倍來看如果把下限提高到30萬然後這個上限提高5倍到150萬或者10到300萬30萬到300萬"},{"start":12179.488,"end":12199.749,"text":"下限是三百萬那上限到三百萬三十到三百十倍那個部長我們統一講完再一起請部長答覆好不好沒有人要講啊邱志偉委員晚那個蔡議員然後鄭天才委員齁來蔡議員先發言好不好那發言我們一起讓部長回應"},{"start":12203.223,"end":12209.621,"text":"欸第一個是說針對法的這個一致性吼那我是希望說我們今天是不是就農產品"},{"start":12210.876,"end":12234.278,"text":"市場交易就是單步這一步法的法則我們先做一個有實質有效的討論那並且可以讓他出委員會那接下來還有其他的包括糧食管理法了怎樣就之後再沿用今天討論的原則然後再去做其他法案的修訂這樣的話我覺得對於整個推進是有效的而且"},{"start":12235.018,"end":12256.881,"text":"事實上陳委員的提案是針對了包括散播謠言誓死然後去影響農產品價格的這件事情我們可以知道現在這種網路的時代他一些風吹草動就確實會影響農產品價格那影響農產品價格又實際就是傷害到了農民本身所以這件事情是很嚴重的那以現在的法則來看"},{"start":12258.142,"end":12276.939,"text":"六萬元以上那三十萬元以下看起來這個法是很輕的這個法輕是幾乎這個遏止力這個不高那第二就是說如果是有心人刻意為之而且是在背後想要謀取一些不正當利益的時候對他來說縱使罰到"},{"start":12278.593,"end":12297.258,"text":"三十萬他完全不敢不敢所以我現在是想請教說好那我們在這個集聚的範圍那我想問說當然這種假訊息去影響交易他有輕重之別那如果在比較輕的時候你們覺得合理的"},{"start":12298.218,"end":12324.329,"text":"法則是在多少?我們先了解這個輕度的時候合理的價格現在6萬你們認為合理嗎?還是這個6萬你們要提高到10萬?那這樣如果用10倍的話我們才有辦法抓出它的上限就是最嚴重的一個狀況那我想這部分是不是請大概請部長一起說明好不好來 曾英才委員這個剛才法務部的說明"},{"start":12325.459,"end":12341.404,"text":"這個已經很清楚了那這個確實是從30萬提高到3000萬然後這麼大的差距就由這個主管機關尤其是地方要去採訪的時候"},{"start":12343.709,"end":12363.378,"text":"這都是一個會產生的一個需要去考量的部分那另外就是說這個因為這邊主要的理由就是因為網路時代和各不一樣所以除了農業部,農業部也有其他相關的法例"},{"start":12364.326,"end":12369.909,"text":"８立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查．如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查．如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查．"},{"start":12385.084,"end":12405.808,"text":"這個要請法務部跟要早一點跟農業部來去商討然後就不要就不要讓那個農業部在報告裡面說這個尊重本部表尊重大案的決定主管機關還是要有一些表達意見會比較適當尤其是涉及到這種這麼大的一個法"},{"start":12412.894,"end":12414.056,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12426.127,"end":12426.467,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":12456.167,"end":12470.963,"text":"以及整個過程我個人認為在定定法則的時候我們定一個法的目的就是要真正能夠幫助社會大眾而且定一個法的目的就是要讓這個執行者他可以執行"},{"start":12472.104,"end":12496.18,"text":"所以我也非常希望聽法務部以及農業部所提出的論點也就是在整個比例原則方面怎麼樣才是一個持恆顧全三營的這個方向第二個也就是特別在農業部的部分因為現在日新月異千變萬化那農業部你在執行的過程當中你要如何"},{"start":12496.92,"end":12497.12,"text":"法務部及農業部"},{"start":12523.598,"end":12529.112,"text":"那我是不是先請農業部說明一下好不好你們應該也思考過啦怎麼樣的一個數字可能是一個比較適合的"},{"start":12531.055,"end":12553.12,"text":"謝謝委員那剛才包括楊全英委員還有那個那個蔡議員跟政電台委員還有其他委員我覺得基本上農業部本身希望那個底線那個那樓地板是6萬因為他有一些是前衛比較輕的如果把他提到30萬剛才講30萬或300萬的時候那一下子就變得非常重"},{"start":12553.8,"end":12562.572,"text":"所以我們是建議說維持6萬然後因為這裡面有兩個項目第一個項目是可以提到"},{"start":12564.915,"end":12589.133,"text":"沒有,那底線沒變啦我現在說天花板的部分可以用10倍因為過去我們大概都是用5倍的概念去算嘛所以6萬變30萬我們可以變成6萬變成60萬用這樣的方式然後第二項的部分就是有關於那個違反那個運銷次序的部分我們可以再拉高到50萬這樣子用這樣的方式"},{"start":12590.487,"end":12590.667,"text":"主席"},{"start":12611.365,"end":12636.34,"text":"就是說依你們來看這個違反第六條第一項第四條第一項跟違反第六條第二項這兩個之間有算你們認為是有這個等級的差別嗎還是這兩項如果嚴重起來是一樣都是很嚴重的如果沒有很大的差別的話你們應該讓他發責的上限是一致的是不是比較我們也可以把它因為這兩個基本上齁"},{"start":12638.387,"end":12639.108,"text":"不過我們跟委員報告一下"},{"start":12663.379,"end":12665.06,"text":"我覺得如果說部長你剛才講的就是"},{"start":12688.477,"end":12708.247,"text":"這個第一項跟第二項你把它挪成一致我個人也不太贊成因為你壟斷跟我們小偷一個人去偷跟這個集團去偷金額雖然一樣但是他的行為不一樣他的行為是天差地也"},{"start":12709.287,"end":12718.732,"text":"所以你們應該要好好相識去討論你聯合壟斷這當然是很嚴重的事情啊對不對你可以聯合壟斷或沒有聯合壟斷一樣出問這樣便宜形式我不贊成我們原來是6萬到60萬然後第二個就是謠言的部分是6萬到50萬"},{"start":12736.377,"end":12755.448,"text":"那你剛剛怎麼說你可以一致沒有啊你那個行為完全不一樣怎麼可能會這樣子我剛才有解釋這兩條的法的背後的理由是不一樣的嘛所以我們有分六萬到六十六萬到五十啊用這樣的分那我是回應剛才其他的委員說是不是一致性我說如果委員討論一致性的話我們也可以解釋"},{"start":12756.412,"end":12779.485,"text":"立法還是要有所本不是話趴拉欠你給人家罰這樣你什麼理由啊以前我們的稅法以前是以前還沒有國稅局稅券住合我給你罰多少你就罰多少是民眾你只好舉證現在不是現在國稅局你要給我罰多少你要舉證給我你要有所本你不要再便宜行事因為一個法定下去"},{"start":12780.745,"end":12795.53,"text":"這個對整個會很大的一個影響而且最重要是你在後面現在趙偉這個主席說的就是你在執行你怎麼支援得來比較重要那這個之後都抓不到的領額對不對"},{"start":12797.805,"end":12822.455,"text":"各位因為這個涉及到法的一些恆明性的問題啦那已經急劇過大確實好像這個法律上也並不是那麼恰當那剛剛大概能業部有提出他們的一些建議剛剛法務部也提出那他們提到是六萬到六十萬那第二項的部分是六萬到五十啦五到五十各位這部分大家同意採用他們的處理方式嗎"},{"start":12823.567,"end":12851.943,"text":"我還是要回答一下因為剛才趙委也提到說壟斷這種惡意操控這是惡性非常大的可是我們現在我當然知道說執行面是沒有辦法判到沒有辦法真的真正的給他做出這種罰款這種懲罰可是這跟我們罪行的這個這個罪行的這個深遠度是沒有還是一樣啊你六萬到六十萬來去懲罰一個壟斷或惡意操控價值的會不會太輕了吧"},{"start":12852.443,"end":12868.501,"text":"那當然還有散播這些農業交易性格、交易價格這些價格直接影響到的是非常大的那我們還是用6萬到60萬這個實在是我還是覺得這個上限是不是可以再調整一下不然這跟任何沒有嚇阻的意義在那要不要讓農業部先說明一下好不好"},{"start":12871.513,"end":12877.195,"text":"陳冠廷等30年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查．完整會議"},{"start":12901.323,"end":12908.624,"text":"你應該是去把你稱之去把它都列表出來那應該是如何可以達到"},{"start":12910.015,"end":12936.434,"text":"這一個二指作用也可以達到你們要執行可以執行的到所以我是充分建議委員會就是大家因為這個金額還有意見所以我也同意就送出去然後協商趁著這個協商期的時間好好去討論出來因為我覺得我們立法不能只有一條法你一條法你沒有跟其他的法那整個會全部亂掉這是本席的建議"},{"start":12937.776,"end":12949.891,"text":"好 是不是介意就這樣我們先參採就是農業部的意見那我們初委員會在協商的時候再來溝通好不好另外其他的相關法也要一併調整因為這個法很平行一併處理好不好"},{"start":12950.629,"end":12951.169,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12980.849,"end":13006.732,"text":"再協商就好了?對不對?對 楊委員不過今天出去是一定要有一個版本如果你要出委員會的話委員會要一個那個那你現在是要照陳委員的版本過嗎?先照陳委員的版本過那各位人呢 有沒有意見?那我們就照陳委員的版本出委員會好不好再協商再來做處理可以嗎?這個版本出去以後農業部就不能再表達立場啦是可以嗎?"},{"start":13011.561,"end":13035.976,"text":"我們就保留協商啦先出文會再保留協商嘛好不好那我們就把這一條保留到草野協商好不好我們就這一條保留到草野協商好不好我想農業部應該要盤整這個所有的法律有涉及到就大概有共識要提高罰則增加賀主力啦至於多少額度的部分我們在草野協商再來做處理好不好"},{"start":13037.535,"end":13063.6,"text":"好,那我們的討論事項所列的《農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案》我們就審計完畢你具審查報告提報院會討論那需要交由黨團來協商那院會討論時就由邱毅英、邱昭偉來做說明好,那我們通過條文相關法制用語授權主席跟議事員成立那本日議程處理完畢,散會謝謝大家辛苦了謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}