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廳長好"},{"start":16.949,"end":29.103,"text":"其實你們到司法法治委員會裡面來到底是不是叫備詢這個我也都很疑問了很疑問了機關跟機關之間尤其是憲政機關其實"},{"start":32.011,"end":52.065,"text":"立法院基於整個民意的一個要求有監督之者 這非常合理啦但是呢 憲政機關其實之間也必須有一個相互的一個尊重以這一次啊 我看今天召委排這個題目我倒覺得這是一個大哉問也非常值得探討的一個問題副秘書長也好 廳長也好"},{"start":54.738,"end":68.714,"text":"我這樣望眼看去整個立法院裡面如果說要談整個法學素養的深厚跟兩位來做較量的話立法院其實也不敢去講話太過於大聲但是民意機關本來講話聲音就會比較大"},{"start":71.356,"end":96.423,"text":"才好像會彰顯一定的一個聲量可是我還是要針對問題來提問就是說以今天來看司法院來稱為提起憲法訴訟法的一個違憲的一個審查它到底這個機關到底它是不是提起的一個機關那我自己的一個看法我是認為說司法院如果真的有破例的話你們去提起釋憲"},{"start":98.764,"end":121.83,"text":"畢竟你們在新聞稿裡面就提到說整個憲法的訴訟法的修正通過造成憲政機關運作上的一個困難這個其實你們去提起也是一個選項透過釋憲的一個方式這個好像是司法院來提看起來是很矛盾光一個憲法法庭跟司法院的關係就讓外界可以討論得非常久了但是各級法院"},{"start":122.89,"end":138.546,"text":"本來現在是各級法院都可以法官都可以申請釋憲那你說過去你回溯到1995年4-371號的時候當初大審法的時候也只規定最高法院可以申請釋憲而已可是大法官"},{"start":139.568,"end":155.128,"text":"在審理的時候自己的程序的時候他有去認知到各級法院的法官也都是依照法律在獨立審判沒有道理說各級法院就不能去申請所以大法官就一錘定音停止適用只有最高法院可以提起釋憲這樣的一個條文"},{"start":157.543,"end":172.018,"text":"當年1950年是這樣子喔所以在本席看來這件事情如果立法院這樣的一個憲政機關通過了一個法律然後去限縮甚至於癱瘓到你整個司法院尤其是你憲法法庭的一個運作的話"},{"start":173.186,"end":198.266,"text":"那憲法法庭你總不能講說你這個憲訴法條文通過啦我基於我是司法機關那我也不便自己主動去提起然後呢因為條文讓它生效以後你的門檻就是這麼高沒辦法我憲法法庭我就註定要停擺如果司法院或者憲法法庭是基於這樣的一個思維的話這個叫做失職這個叫做怠惰這個是形同拒絕啊"},{"start":199.737,"end":225.709,"text":"憲法法庭啊你整個憲法賦予給你解釋法律到底有沒有違憲這樣的一個權限我不曉得副理事長或廳長你們的看法怎麼樣好啦 廳長大膽說啦你那做有專業的 你就說你的就沒關係了你沒有 跟委員報告就是說剛剛也有別的委員槌尋有關於司法院過去有沒有申請釋憲這部分我們也有回答那當然"},{"start":227.07,"end":245.66,"text":"憲促法的規定其實總統及五院針對這個行使職權的時候所使用的法規範有抵觸憲法的時候都可以來申請解釋憲法所以就司法院來說在法條上面的事格其實是毋庸疑問的當然啦 事實氣條就講得很清楚啦你們就是司法最高機關啦"},{"start":246.26,"end":270.703,"text":"但陳柱剛委員所理解的就是說因為司法院在目前其實司法院院長他同時是司法行政的首長以及身兼憲法法庭審判長的情況之下那這個部分司法院是不是要以司法行政的機關的身份向憲法法庭來提出事先案這個部分可能要由這個我們的首長做全盤的橫著這個哪有問題你提起的話當然你會有迴避的問題啊"},{"start":271.764,"end":286.038,"text":"你是不是到最後你提起司法院院長你本身就迴避就好啦不是這樣子嗎如果真正你們提起了憲法法庭的時候當然你身為一個機關的一個代表人那你司法院院長當然要迴避啊是不是這樣說我是覺得你們是在下一盤大棋啦我個人解讀啦"},{"start":293.786,"end":321.938,"text":"以這一次來看的話我一直會認為說你在限訴法這樣通過以後呢你從過去還不叫憲法法庭大法官會議的時候啊你們所做出來的四至五百三十號裡面講得很清楚 我想廳長你也會很清楚啊審判獨立是基於整個權力分立跟制衡的一個原理啊你司法本來就有一個自主性啊"},{"start":323.237,"end":343.729,"text":"否則你說因為立法院基於民意所通過的一個法令然後把你整個憲法法庭全部給攤換掉你說 我不行我憲法法庭我完全沒有辦法去運作那變成老百姓把這個權利憲法把這個權利交給你們憲法法庭那你們不是太多嗎我不曉得你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":347.049,"end":360.275,"text":"跟我說明就是說事實上你們可以講出很精闢的見解我都認為你身為一個廳長你可以你說副秘書長理的就比較屬於行政可是你們整個憲法法庭你們一個書記處的一個廳長你們看過多少號解釋"},{"start":366.584,"end":378.889,"text":"對不對 每一次大法官來做一個對憲法做出解釋 法律有沒有違背憲法的時候我相信你們都有接觸過很多精闢的一個見解這一個案件到現在來看 我不認為你們沒有著墨"},{"start":382.717,"end":409.156,"text":"回答委員的提問就是有關委員剛剛提到包括4-530還有過去在我們視線跟憲法訴訟判決時務那確實大法官或憲法法庭有關於憲法法庭的程序自主這個部分確實有過琢磨但是在具體的個案上面程序自主權如何的放射到什麼樣的範圍那因為目前我們討論的這個案子已經細數在憲法法庭"},{"start":409.716,"end":417.021,"text":"那身為司法行政我們真的不變多表示意見那可能就要看大法官他們在這樣的具體個案裡面他們怎麼去"},{"start":418.584,"end":439.013,"text":"解釋適用憲法訴訟法其實如果要討論說整個現在系屬在憲法法庭的案件的話現在也有不少喔就算憲訴法你說複義了嘛你說當它真正生效以後啊生效以後連憲法法庭在解釋這些案件已經系屬在法院這些案件的時候"},{"start":439.693,"end":467.939,"text":"你總不能每一件都說我現在我現在平益 我現在人數根本全部都不夠我沒有達到這個門檻我全部把老百姓申請的 全部不管是機關或老百姓所申請的全部都不受理掉 全部癱瘓掉每一件都不能解釋那要這個憲法法庭幹什麼那你們就完全受制於立法機關啊這也不對啊立法機關當然是代表民意啊但是我們的憲法的設計不是只有單一的叫立法機關代表國家"},{"start":469.417,"end":488.017,"text":"我們憲政機關不是只有立法機關啦我們憲政機關是權力分立啊我們憲政機關講的還是一個制衡的一個原理啊所以我是覺得你們這樣扭扭捏捏我覺得廳長這樣聽起來好像也不對那以現在這一次來看你說行政院的政委提出的說預防性權力的一個救濟的一個可能性"},{"start":489.895,"end":512.108,"text":"以現在來看的話 憲法訴訟法第一條開宗明義講的就這幾個類型 我們很清楚可是以過去的案例 大法官在解釋的時候他自己大法官的解釋 大法官會議解釋 等於現在憲法法庭的解釋他解釋出來就等於形同憲法 不是嗎 廷長這個可以認同嗎"},{"start":513.539,"end":521.389,"text":"是 他解釋不是來形同一個憲法那過去大法官在解釋大審法的時候他也跟你說你那個大審法不對"},{"start":523.803,"end":543.942,"text":"只有最高法院可以申請釋憲這是不對的因為本於整個基於審判獨立所有各級法院它全部都是獨立審判所以各個法院的法官他都可以獨立提出申請把整個大審法就把你給幹掉啦那同樣的基於同樣的一個法理啊還不是一樣嗎如果我現在是大法官我就採取這樣的一個精神"},{"start":545.353,"end":570.106,"text":"不是說為了什麼哪一個政黨你司法不用嘛司法你本來就是代表國家嘛哪一個政黨來那只是他本身是給予短短幾年名譽賦予他執政的一個機會而已嘛可是你司法你是整個國家你再延續下去的人你要看他合不合理欸如果任何人哪天假設民進黨真的是哪天在野啦然後發生了我們這個國會裡面的一個多數我們也像藍白聯手這樣亂幹的話你癱瘓掉整個司法制度"},{"start":575.475,"end":599.235,"text":"本席齊齊以為不可但是這個議題當然是值得討論你說到底是要用暫時處分的方式或者說整個預防性權利的一個救濟措施我也知道會有贊成的我也知道會有反對各自都言之成理各自都言之成理可是重點本席的重點不在這個地方本席的重點是在於說如果因為"},{"start":602.588,"end":619.78,"text":"大家都講求民意 司法機關還在講什麼民意司法機關你一個系屬在法院的一個案件不管你憲法法庭 或者各個法院哪一個人 多有民意法院可不管這一些喔尹錫悅剛剛不是被逮捕了嗎對不對 韓國總統啊那選出來也都很大的民意啊"},{"start":625,"end":650.911,"text":"很大的民意啊你司法機關哪有管你什麼民意司法機關你代表的就是國家啊你說總統是不是代表國家 當然算啦他對外是代表一個國家啊可是你一個司法機關裡面你也是國家最高的一個司法機關啊你本來就是基於獨立審判啊你不能去拒絕啊你不能是一個民意機關定出一個法律要把你整個憲法法令把你給趟換掉那你就說啊沒辦法立法院來的這些東西我們要遵守是這樣子嗎立法院我們法律很多都是亂定的欸"},{"start":656.601,"end":669.645,"text":"你們難道不知道審法的過程裡面嗎那是很 有些聲音法學或者說基於法律的一個原理所定出來的有時候常常在問你們的意見啊那反而這一些我們不問你們意見沒有問你們意見就會出問題不是說你們的意見不能挑戰可是當你們的意見完全都不受立法機關來尊重的時候問題就來了這一部法律就是這樣來的涉及到整個政黨的鬥爭裡面啊就會產生很大的一個問題啊"},{"start":686.397,"end":709.215,"text":"我們在座幾位委員啊我們也不可能一輩子都是當立法委員啦所以這種國家基本的憲政法理我還懂我還懂贊成的我認為言之成理反對的我也認為言之成理都可以去討論可是呢你憲法法令你總是要做一個決定啊你不能被繳卸掉啊不是這樣子嗎 廳長"},{"start":712.953,"end":726.747,"text":"跟委員說明就是針對目前三讀修正通過的限訴法那確實已經有不少案件有對這個部分來申請釋憲或者是暫時處分那我們相信下法庭會做適當的處理是啦 您當然會不好意思說但是我總會覺得 你看我再舉一號"},{"start":732.273,"end":758.646,"text":"你像你們在釋字在第599號裡面的理由書這講得很清楚喔爭議的法令的一個適用可能對人民的基本權利憲法基本原則或其他重大公義造成不可恢復或難以恢復的重大損害的時候而對損害的防止事實上具有局迫性的且別無其他手段可知防免時得權衡做成暫時處分之利益跟不做成暫時處分之不利益"},{"start":759.426,"end":764.756,"text":"你看看喔 利益顯然大於不利益 申請人的申請 以本案作為前等作為暫時處分 定暫時狀態他談的就是可能"},{"start":768.973,"end":792.822,"text":"你們四字599也在談這一號喔所以我現在倒覺得啦 我們司法院有點在玩大富翁遊戲啦到了要抽籤的時候 你們到底是會抽到這個幸運卡或者說你的機會就是你先去提起預防訴訟來做一個救濟這個命運就是說 你只能乖乖的去等法律聖教提起暫時處分"},{"start":795.666,"end":823.033,"text":"這個是你要抽的是機會還是這個命運這個值得司法院好好去做一個思考但是我在這邊再一次的建議再一次的一個建議司法院到我們司法法治委員會我還是期待你們拿出你們最專業的見解不卑不亢看到國會議員哪怕是聲音很大的嘶吼的哪怕是破護罵結型的"},{"start":824.212,"end":847.932,"text":"站在你們自己司法機關專業的立場不卑不亢去回應就好畢竟你們也叫做憲政機關啦平常你們只是預算在我們這個地方你說立法院基於整個憲政的一個設計我們確實有監督之權可是我們對於司法院來看的話我都覺得應該是多一份的一個尊重"},{"start":849.173,"end":866.223,"text":"人民當然對司法有很高的一個期待啊司法確實是 以現在來看的話我從過去一直看民調從以前 副民主黨這個你就要特別注意了我就從當學生的時候一直看到現在司法的滿意度就不要管過你不管誰執政"},{"start":867.628,"end":895.637,"text":"就真的就沒有高過問題出在哪裡我也不知道司法國事會議我們也開開完以後呢陷入一些肢解頭痛一頭腳痛一腳可是到最後民調每一次出來以後我相信法律人都非常洩氣這值得我們彼此再去努力的一個地方可是到國會以後我還是期許你們拿出你們最專業拿出你們最專業然後呢這個案件以現在來看的話"},{"start":896.317,"end":900.863,"text":"我覺得司法案其實你們本身就可以為自己找到解方以上 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T10:58:54.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T10:58:56.931000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，有請司法院王副秘書長，還有憲法法庭書記廳楊廳長。","quality":0.423},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-15T10:58:56.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T10:58:58.692000+08:00","text":"麻煩副秘書長、楊廳長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T10:58:59.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T10:58:59.593000+08:00","text":"副秘書長好、廳長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T10:59:10.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T10:59:17.176000+08:00","text":"其實你們到司法及法制委員會裡面來，到底是不是叫備詢？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T10:59:17.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T10:59:18.578000+08:00","text":"這個我也都很有疑問啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T10:59:21.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T10:59:35.458000+08:00","text":"機關跟機關之間，尤其是憲政機關，其實立法院基於整個民意的要求，有監督之責，這非常合理，但是憲政機關之間其實也必須有一個相互的尊重。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T10:59:36.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:00:08.977000+08:00","text":"以這一次，我看今天召委排這個題目，我倒覺得這是一個大哉問，也是非常值得探討的一個問題，副秘書長也好，廳長也好，我這樣望眼看去，整個立法院裡面，如果說要談法學素養的深厚，跟兩位來做較量的話，立法院其實講話也不敢太過大聲，但是民意機關嘛，本來講話聲音就會比較大，好像才能彰顯一定的聲量。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:00:10.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:00:53.489000+08:00","text":"可是我還是要針對問題來提問，就是以今天的狀況來看，司法院來提起憲法訴訟法違憲的審查，這個機關到底是不是可提起的機關，我自己的看法啦，我是認為司法院如果真的有魄力的話，你們去提起釋憲，畢竟你們在新聞稿裡面就提到，憲法訴訟法的修正通過，造成憲政機關運作上的困難，這個其實由你們去提起也是一個選項，透過釋憲的方式，司法院來提看起來好像很矛盾，光一個憲法法庭跟司法院的關係，就可以讓外界討論非常久了。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:00:55.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:01:32.284000+08:00","text":"現在各級法院法官本來就都可以聲請釋憲，但你回溯到1995年，釋字第371號的時候，當初大審法也只規定最高法院可以聲請釋憲而已，可是大法官在審理程序的時候，他有認知到各級法院的法官也都是依照法律在獨立審判，沒有道理說各級法院就不能去聲請，所以大法官就一錘定音，停止適用只有最高法院可以提起釋憲這樣的一個條文，1995年當年是這樣子。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:01:33.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:02:03.819000+08:00","text":"所以在本席看來，這一件事情如果立法院這樣的一個憲政機關通過了一個法律，然後去限縮、甚至癱瘓整個司法院，尤其是憲法法庭運作的話，憲法法庭總不能講說「這個憲訴法條文通過了，基於我是司法機關，我也不便自己主動去提起，然後因為條文生效以後，你的門檻就是這麼高，沒辦法，我憲法法庭就註定要停擺」。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:02:03.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:02:12.246000+08:00","text":"如果司法院或者憲法法庭是基於這樣的一個思維的話，這個叫做失職，這個叫做怠惰，這個是形同拒絕啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:02:13.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:02:27.403000+08:00","text":"憲法賦予你憲法法庭解釋法律到底有沒有違憲這樣的一個權限，我不曉得副秘書長或廳長你們的看法怎麼樣？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:02:27.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:02:28.424000+08:00","text":"好啦，廳長，大膽講啦！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:02:28.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:02:31.245000+08:00","text":"你們很專業，你就講你的，沒關係。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"楊廳長皓清","start":"2025-01-15T11:02:32.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:02:56.458000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，剛剛也有別的委員垂詢有關司法院過去有沒有聲請釋憲，這部分我們也有回答，當然憲訴法的規定，其實總統及五院針對行使職權的時候所適用的法規範，認為有牴觸憲法的時候，都可以聲請解釋憲法，所以就司法院來說，在法條上面的適格其實是無庸疑問的。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:02:56.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:02:58.119000+08:00","text":"當然啦，第四十七條就講得很清楚啦！","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"楊廳長皓清","start":"2025-01-15T11:02:58.119000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-15T11:02:59.119000+08:00","text":"是，但是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:02:58.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:02:59.640000+08:00","text":"你們就是司法最高機關啊！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"楊廳長皓清","start":"2025-01-15T11:03:00.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:03:21.360000+08:00","text":"但誠如剛剛委員所理解的，因為目前其實在司法院院長同時是司法行政的首長，以及憲法法庭審判長的情況之下，司法院是不是要以司法行政機關的身分，向憲法法庭來提出釋憲案，這個部分可能要由我們的首長做全盤的衡酌，才有辦法判斷。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:03:22.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:03:23.242000+08:00","text":"這個哪有問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:03:23.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:03:24.683000+08:00","text":"你提起的話，當然會有迴避的問題啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:03:25.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:03:31.670000+08:00","text":"是不是你提起後，司法院院長本身去迴避就好啦，不是這樣子嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:03:31.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:03:39.357000+08:00","text":"如果你們真正提起了憲法解釋的時候，你身為一個機關的代表人，你司法院院長當然要迴避啊，不是這樣嗎？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:03:39.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:04:28.563000+08:00","text":"我是覺得你們是在下一盤大棋啦，我個人解讀啦，以這一次的狀況來看的話，我會一直認為你在憲訴法修正通過以後……你從過去還不叫做憲法法庭，還是大法官會議的時候，你們所做出來的釋字第530號裡面講得很清楚，我想廳長你也很清楚，審判獨立是基於整個權力分立跟制衡的原理，你司法權本來就有自主性，否則因為立法院基於民意所通過的一個法令，然後把你整個憲法法庭全部給癱瘓掉，你說：我不行，憲法法庭完全沒有辦法去運作。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:04:30.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:04:36.908000+08:00","text":"老百姓把這個權力、憲法把這個權力交給你們憲法法庭，那你們不是怠惰嗎？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:04:36.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:04:37.729000+08:00","text":"我不曉得你的看法是怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊廳長皓清","start":"2025-01-15T11:04:41.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:04:44.110000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，事實上……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:04:44.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:05:01.204000+08:00","text":"你不用不好意思，你們都不好意思說，你們可以講出很精闢的見解，我都認為你身為廳長，你可以……你說副秘書長掌理的就比較屬於行政方面，可是你是憲法法庭書記廳的廳長，你看過多少號解釋了，對不對？","quality":0.747},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:05:01.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:05:12.869000+08:00","text":"每一次大法官對憲法做出解釋，說法律有沒有違背憲法的時候，我相信你們都有接觸過很多精闢的見解，這一個案件到現在來看，我不認為你們沒有著墨。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"楊廳長皓清","start":"2025-01-15T11:05:16.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:05:37.712000+08:00","text":"回答委員的提問，有關委員剛剛提到，包括釋字第530號，還有過去在我們釋憲跟憲法訴訟判決實務，大法官或憲法法庭在有關憲法法庭的程序自主這個部分確實有過著墨，但是在具體的個案上面，程序自主權如何放射？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"楊廳長皓清","start":"2025-01-15T11:05:38.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:05:39.373000+08:00","text":"到什麼樣的範圍？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊廳長皓清","start":"2025-01-15T11:05:39.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:05:53.845000+08:00","text":"因為目前我們討論的這個案子已經繫屬在憲法法庭，身為司法行政機關，我們真的不便多表示意見，可能就要看大法官在這樣的具體個案裡面怎麼去解釋、適用憲法訴訟法。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:05:54.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:06:31.817000+08:00","text":"其實如果要討論繫屬在憲法法庭的案件，現在也有不少，就算是憲訴法，你說提覆議了嘛，你說讓它真正生效以後，憲法法庭在解釋這些已經繫屬在法院的案件時，你總不能每一件都說「我現在評議人數根本都不夠，我沒有達到這個門檻，不管是機關或老百姓所聲請的，我全部都不受理，全部癱瘓掉，每一件都不能解釋」，那要這個憲法法庭幹什麼？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:06:31.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:06:34.997000+08:00","text":"那你們就完全受制於立法機關，這也不對啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:06:35.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:06:57.032000+08:00","text":"立法機關當然是代表民意，但是我們憲法的設計不是只有單一個立法機關代表國家，我們的憲政機關不是只有立法機關，我們憲政機關是權力分立，我們憲政機關講的還是一個制衡的原理，所以你們這樣扭扭捏捏，我覺得廳長這樣講，聽起來好像也不對。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:06:58.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:07:25.468000+08:00","text":"行政院的政委提出預防性權利救濟的一個可能性，以現在來看的話，憲法訴訟法第一條開宗明義講了，就是這幾個類型，我們很清楚，可是以過去的案例來說，大法官會議的解釋，等於現在憲法法庭的解釋，它解釋出來就形同憲法，不是嗎？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:07:25.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:07:26.108000+08:00","text":"廳長，這個可以認同嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:07:27.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:07:51.676000+08:00","text":"是，它解釋出來形同憲法，過去大法官在解釋大審法的時候，它也跟你說你那個大審法不對，只有最高法院可以聲請釋憲，這是不對的，因為基於審判獨立，各級法院全部都是獨立審判，所以各個法院的法官都可以獨立提出聲請，把整個大審法給幹掉了。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:07:53.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:07:55.820000+08:00","text":"基於同樣的一個法理，還不是一樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:07:55.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:08:16.482000+08:00","text":"如果我現在是大法官，我就採取這樣的一個精神，不是說為了哪一個政黨，不用嘛，你司法本來就是代表國家，不管是哪一個政黨，只是民意賦予它本身短短幾年執政的一個機會而已，可是你司法代表整個國家，你是要延續下去的，你要看它合不合理。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:08:19.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:08:30.856000+08:00","text":"假設民進黨哪天真的在野了，然後發生在國會裡面是多數，如果我們也像藍白聯手這樣亂幹的話，癱瘓掉整個司法制度，本席期期以為不可。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:08:32.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:08:59.410000+08:00","text":"這個議題當然是值得討論，你說到底是要用暫時處分的方式，或者用預防性權利救濟措施，我知道會有贊成的，我也知道會有反對的，各自都言之成理，可是本席的重點不在這個地方，本席的重點是在於，大家都講求民意，但司法機關哪有在講什麼民意？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:09:00.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:09:11.539000+08:00","text":"司法機關對於一個繫屬在法院的案件，不管在憲法法庭或者各個法院，哪一個人多有民意，法院可不管這一些喔！","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:09:12.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:09:13.060000+08:00","text":"尹錫悅剛剛不是被逮捕了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:09:13.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:09:13.140000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:09:13.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:09:13.760000+08:00","text":"韓國總統啊，選出來也都是代表很大的民意啊！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:09:20.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:09:25.643000+08:00","text":"司法機關哪有管你什麼民意，司法機關代表的就是國家，你說總統是不是代表國家？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:09:25.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:09:44.551000+08:00","text":"當然算啊，他對外就代表國家，可是你也是國家最高的司法機關啊，你本來就是獨立審判啊，你不能去拒絕啊，你不能因為一個民意機關定出一個法律，要把你整個憲法法庭給癱瘓掉，你就說沒辦法，立法院來的這些東西，我們要遵守，是這樣子嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:09:44.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:09:44.911000+08:00","text":"立法院對我們法律有很多都是亂定的欸！","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:09:50.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:09:53.062000+08:00","text":"你們難道不知道審查法案的過程嗎？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:09:53.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:09:58.824000+08:00","text":"有一些聲音，法學或者基於法律的原理所定出來的，有時候常常要問你們的意見啊！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:09:58.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:10:03.625000+08:00","text":"反而這些我們不問你們的意見，沒有問你們意見就會出問題，不是你們的意見不能挑戰，可是當你們的意見完全都不受立法機關尊重的時候，問題就來了，這一部法律就是這樣來的，涉及到整個政黨的鬥爭就會產生很大的一個問題。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:10:20.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:10:43.215000+08:00","text":"我們在座的幾位委員也不可能一輩子都是當立法委員，這種國家基本的憲政法理我還懂，贊成的，我認為言之成理；反對的，我也認為言之成理，都可以去討論，可是憲法法庭最後總是要作一個決定，不能被繳械掉，不是這樣子嗎？廳長。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"楊廳長皓清","start":"2025-01-15T11:10:46.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:10:58.565000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，針對目前三讀修正通過的憲訴法，確實已經有不少案件有對這個部分聲請釋憲或者是暫時處分，我們相信憲法法庭會做適當的處理。是啦！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:10:58.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:11:38.476000+08:00","text":"你們當然會不好意思說，但是我總會覺得……我再舉一號，你們在釋字第599號的理由書都講得很清楚：爭議法令的適用，可能對人民基本權利、憲法基本原則或其他重大公益造成不可回復或難以回復的重大損害，而對損害的防止事實上具有急迫性，且別無其他手段可資防免時，得權衡作成暫時處分之利益與不作成暫時處分之不利益，並於利益顯然大於不利益時，依聲請人的聲請，於本案解釋前作成暫時處分以定暫時狀態。","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:11:38.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:11:38.736000+08:00","text":"他談的就是可能耶！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:11:43.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:11:45.714000+08:00","text":"釋字第599號也在談這一號喔！","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:11:46.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:12:17.408000+08:00","text":"所以我現在倒是覺得，司法院有一點像在玩大富翁遊戲，到了要抽籤的時候，你們到底是會抽到幸運卡，或者你們的機會就是先去提起預防訴訟來救濟，而這個命運就是你們只能乖乖地去等法律生效再提起暫時處分，你們要抽的是機會還是命運，這個值得司法院好好去思考。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:12:18.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:13:01.912000+08:00","text":"但是我在這邊再一次建議，司法院到司法及法制委員會來，我還是期待你們拿出你們最專業的見解，不卑不亢，在國會議員質詢時，哪怕是聲音很大的、嘶吼的，哪怕是潑婦罵街型的，站在你們自己司法機關專業的立場，不卑不亢去回應就好，畢竟你們也叫做憲政機關，你們只是預算在我們這個地方，而立法院基於憲政的設計，我們確實有監督之權，可是我們對於司法院，我都覺得應該是多一份的尊重。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:13:03.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:13:24.829000+08:00","text":"人民當然對司法有很高的期待，司法確實以現在來看的話，我從過去一直看民調，從以前……副秘書長，這個你就要特別注意了，我從當學生的時候一直看，看到現在，司法的滿意度都不曾高過，不管誰執政，就真的沒有高過，問題出在哪裡？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:13:24.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:13:41.114000+08:00","text":"我也不知道，司法國是會議我們也開了，開完以後，陷入一些枝節，頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，可是到最後，民調每一次出來以後，我相信法律人都非常洩氣，這是值得我們彼此再去努力的地方。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:13:41.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:13:45.836000+08:00","text":"可是在你們到國會的時候，我還是期許你們拿出你們最專業的部分。","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:13:48.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:13:54.342000+08:00","text":"這個案件以現在來看的話，我覺得司法院其實本身就可以為自己找到解方。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2025-01-15T11:13:54.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-15T11:13:54.863000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-15T11:13:55.363000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-15T11:13:56.505857+08:00","text":"休息5分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-15T11:13:56.805857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-15T11:13:57.948714+08:00","text":"休息（11時14分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-15T11:13:58.248714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-15T11:13:59.963000+08:00","text":"繼續開會（11時20分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-15T11:14:00.263000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-15T11:14:01.977286+08:00","text":"現在繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-15T11:14:02.277286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-15T11:14:05.420143+08:00","text":"下一位請翁曉玲委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}