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最起碼先誠心道歉啦謝謝委員的提醒非常謝謝院長跟部長我想請教院長不會讓時代烏克蘭人買單你知道這句話誰說的嗎那請委員指示這是烏克蘭總統哲文斯基的悲嘆那你知道為什麼哲文斯基會發出這樣的悲嘆"},{"start":328.871,"end":354.086,"text":"您知道嗎?院長,國際時事可是你還是...戰爭之後,他的有感而發吧?呃,院長,您掌握國家大事齁,這個是最新的一個狀況,尊斯基現在面對最大的問題是什麼?俄羅斯以外啦,正面跟俄羅斯作戰美國總統對他有一些談判上的要求非常好他會發這個悲嘆是因為,烏俄戰爭即將滿三年"},{"start":357.199,"end":383.997,"text":"面對俄羅斯的入侵哲恩斯基在戰場的正面是面對俄羅斯如狼似虎的攻勢但是在戰場的後方他遇到另外一個麻煩那就是美國總統川普要求烏克蘭要簽署價值高達五千億美元天價的所謂哲恩斯基口中要十代烏克蘭人才能償還的礦產協議這個你應該知道吧"},{"start":387.679,"end":409.305,"text":"這個新聞你應該知道吧目前是全球最關切的如果總統是國家的司機那你覺得責任司機該接受川普這個天價協議嗎應該站在自己國家最有利的角度維護國家的主權跟尊嚴跟安全才能跟國外做任何談判所以"},{"start":410.557,"end":434.696,"text":"臺灣我們中華民國臺灣也是一樣我們先要把自己強化起來像今天因為我們有高科技的領先地位我們有一點點談判的空間我們要正視這個空間盡量挽回這是我後面要問你你也知道但是我覺得更重要的問題先不講該不該你覺得責任司機能拒絕川普這個天價協議嗎他有能力拒絕嗎我覺得"},{"start":436.929,"end":455.738,"text":"哲倫斯基總統要衡量他自己現在國內戰爭的情況以他自己在戰爭當中你講的是該不該的層次我問的是能不能的層次我很難替他做當然啦你不是烏克蘭總統你沒辦法替他回答不管烏克蘭的國家司機哲倫斯基總統答應還是不答應川普的天價協議"},{"start":457.903,"end":477.79,"text":"歷經三年血戰的烏克蘭面臨了對俄割地對美賠款的一個危機這才是讓人覺得非常惋惜跟同情我覺得對整個世界處境我們是感到非常的同情可是我下一個要問你中華民國有一個司機掌握國家的司機是誰"},{"start":479.264,"end":507.094,"text":"如果你這樣形容的話應該是總統帶著大家一起往前進非常好嘛賴清德總統拍廣告片也認為他是司機嘛對不對接蔡英文總統司機的棒子嘛所以是清德司機嘛對不對那我要問問坐在清德司機車上協助駕駛的您你覺得如果川普也對台灣開出天價你覺得清德司機該不該接受川普開的天價如果啦我們就應該我剛剛說過的"},{"start":508.894,"end":538.084,"text":"站在對國家界最有利的角度去維護國家的主權安全跟尊嚴那我們現在有我們高科技做我們的基礎我們應該用這個跟世界來說我們願意跟大家成為可以信賴的夥伴所以我們倡議全球的民主公義院從半導體人工智慧這樣開始好那我就跟你一個一個來看您這個立場怎麼面對川普開的天價川普其實對台灣已經開出了三個天價院長知道吧"},{"start":539.545,"end":566.279,"text":"三個天價比如說的是他已經對台灣直接有開出三個天價包括國防在內的嘛對國防第一個嘛他要學GDV多少不會不知道吧要求是10吧10%嘛對不對第二個天價他不只針對台灣他對很多國家都這樣要求對啦沒關係啦他對台灣要求其實比較多你如果仔細去看10%他對台灣要的是最多的沒錯吧"},{"start":567.438,"end":589.37,"text":"我的國際情勢掌握沒錯吧他對北約也要求對哪裡也要求但是對台灣他特別期待喔他期待是10%喔沒錯吧前幾天總統在國安高層會議上說我們要3%他已經列為當時美國已經列為歐洲的重大訊息了表示他也應該知道這個訊息後面再跟你就教這件事情第二個添加什麼"},{"start":598.517,"end":611.684,"text":"第三個天價這不是針對台灣啦他在全球都要解決他們的貿易逆差問題嘛三個天價台灣2024年GDP是多少你說國內生產毛額嗎對 去年25.4兆台幣那按照川普的要求到10%是新台幣多少"},{"start":622.551,"end":645.153,"text":"就是這個的25.4兆台幣就是2.5兆台幣2.5兆那你知道台灣有史以來通過最高政府總預算是哪一年就是2025年非常好114年度嘛對不對多少錢3兆1325億預法院預算這個刪除之後升多少2兆9000億左右嘛對不對"},{"start":646.328,"end":673.382,"text":"通過的這是立法院宣讀的數字那真的核算出來的數字我們還沒有辦法加總三兆嘛左右啦對不對但是通過的如果說剛剛宣讀的數字之外我已經報告過我們有2806億是新增的項目沒關係啦扣掉這些的話預算我跟你講預算我後面還要跟你講我現在講國際情勢啦國防預算是10%有時候2.5兆你剛剛已經講現在是3兆那你知道是什麼概念嗎"},{"start":675.114,"end":686.879,"text":"占多少你知道嗎如果是真的到那個10%的話GDP10%超過百分之 將近百分之85欸對不對根本不可能的事嘛是不是天價"},{"start":688.562,"end":712.094,"text":"對啊,那你覺得我們能接受嗎?不可能嘛根據台灣現在的財政結構,跟我們財政規劃所以以總統講的,我們朝GDP3%來做規劃這我後面跟你講啊第一個,所以你也不認為我們有辦法接受川普開這個第一個天價所以我們要有合理的談判當然要有合理的談判,是政府希望你去努力的那我告訴你,慘在哪裡?"},{"start":714.878,"end":742.518,"text":"我們現在政府通過你自己都講是有史以來最高的預算三兆比馬政府高出多少你知道吧比馬政府平均的預算高出多少這好像不到兩兆是不是對平均高出一兆耶那你知道今天的院長你拿到三兆預算比馬政府要開多出一兆而且是歷史新高請問現在我們的政府商量現在在幹什麼2016年我們的GDP只有16.7兆"},{"start":745.372,"end":760.575,"text":"2024年我們有25.4%院長 我要跟你講你現在是成長50%你跟我講GDP在8年內成長50%嗎2016年我們是16.7兆我要問你的是什麼 錢的問題嘛夠不夠的問題如果扣掉那個2.5兆你就還夠用嗎夠不夠用扣掉那個2.5兆還夠不夠用2.5兆如果這張川普講的GDP要10% 2.5兆還夠不夠用"},{"start":775.38,"end":781.284,"text":"當然不夠用嘛我為什麼不夠用你三兆你都不夠用了你都一直喊窮啊"},{"start":782.486,"end":804.071,"text":"更何況2.5兆啊我現在問幾個問題啊我先跟你講現在政府整個在喊窮喊到什麼程度沒關係啊院長我南北在這個地方我有幾個心中強大的疑惑啦我現在心中有一個強大的疑惑啦歷史新高的預算你知道政府喊窮喊到什麼程度"},{"start":804.611,"end":829.352,"text":"外面網路 沿著政府喊窮開始文章跟謠言做到什麼時候我也沒看到我們今天政府出來辟謠啊我來講幾件事 第一個我們這個最近在棒球賽嘛 對不對第一場對西班牙的時候不幸落敗嘛 對不對沒錯吧 今天晚上我們希望能夠把扳回一城一定要贏可是你知道嗎"},{"start":830.56,"end":847.231,"text":"第一場對西班牙輸了你知道一堆網路上的謠言就出來說輸西班牙是因為藍白三預算院長輸西班牙是因為藍白三預算嗎這個政府沒有辦法為一億的這個"},{"start":849.235,"end":870.08,"text":"政府遇到...越南這不公平啊以前政府啊你在的時候對不對民進黨執政的時候打假打謠言打得多兇啊還查水表社會秩序無法搬出來現在跟我講政府沒辦法因應所有的謠言像我們潑了一些對...那沒關係啊你沒有辦法因應所有的第一個你要告訴我這是不謠言在這裡跟我講"},{"start":870.953,"end":894.3,"text":"那沒有經過查證的一些事情是嘛 就是謠言啊那還是你要認證說今天棒球打輸是藍白三預算是嗎我直接問你們體育署今年比去年多多少錢二十億嘛我再問你第二件事棒球預算我們在立法院有三一毛錢嗎 有沒有三"},{"start":895.868,"end":920.872,"text":"那只有通三的部分 三的業務費吧通三的部分棒球的經費 運動發展基金以前你們講自己宣稱是從運動發展基金出來的啊委員今天問我說棒球打輸是不是三預算我會跟你說不是謝謝三預算的結果 三的業務費會讓我們很多的業務我告訴你 你要講別的東西我告訴你 今天講也講不清啦你現在倒數跟我講說這個影響這個影響但是展現國民面前就是你剛剛講的啊"},{"start":925.618,"end":953.797,"text":"預算有史 歷史新高啊我是今天很不想在這邊跟你說啊蔡英文就是怎麼樣 蔡英文難道蔡英文今天這個她的兩兆八千億 兩兆九千億政府已經倒了嗎馬英九的一兆八千億 一兆九千億就倒了嗎我們有兩千八百零六億的新增計畫有那麼多項早上我已經報告過了我還沒跟你講我現在後面還講到川普欸你要不要學學川普啊"},{"start":955.051,"end":973.9,"text":"川普政府消費部光第一波刪了多少預算 請問自己刪也不用等到國會刪喔如果刪得有道理 當然大家會支持對啊 道理你定嘛如果刪到讓整個政府自在難行如果刪到我們讓我們整個政府自在難行我們當然要據理力爭打院長 我告訴你啊這邊我跟你講"},{"start":975.765,"end":1003.329,"text":"你說你的我說我的 反正也捨不清啦我跟你講 鐵的事實很簡單鐵的事實就是政府今年的預算是最高的我再問第二個問題 我跟你講你今天耗到整場結束 我知道我也不能說服你我沒有打算跟爸爸說服你來第二個喔 院長第二個啦 這個放到後面啦反正你今天 你們行政機器這麼大你們論點我也聽了一百遍了"},{"start":1004.161,"end":1031.051,"text":"但是我關心的東西可以讓我問吧可不可以 院長你要把我們答覆當作你的想像的一部分再來引申你的問題沒有 請問棒球打輸是藍白三預算你說不是的 我有想像什麼所以2800億的新增預算要加在預算裡面院長 你三兆預算你跟我講新增計畫實際上今天扣掉台電的1000億議法院整個三個半天三1000億啦"},{"start":1032.552,"end":1044.667,"text":"你跟我講兩千億多億100億除了財力的新增計劃你倉收稅收的五千億你現在跟我講不夠用那我跟你講算不算會認識院長已經跟你說了韓院長跟你說不夠用怎麼辦真的不夠用怎麼辦"},{"start":1049.444,"end":1057.066,"text":"追加預算嘛請問能不能追加預算你能不能追加預算追加預算要符合預算法79條的規定你先把追加預算拿出來看看你講的那些新增計畫你沒辦法做的"},{"start":1069.19,"end":1080.731,"text":"你一件事都不做 你在那邊說做不了請看下一個問題高雄連續殺人分屍案要修正卻沒有辦法開花劃分池是因為藍白塞預算嗎"},{"start":1082.765,"end":1109.241,"text":"是不是沒有聽清楚高雄連續殺人分屍案要修正沒有錢開挖劃分池是安排篩預算嗎 院長我不懂這個邏輯非常好 我也不懂啦我當過台北市議員 你也當過台北市議員像這種刑案修正如果真的要開挖劃分池是誰要出這個經費的我們在台北市議會都不會這樣算預算"},{"start":1110.698,"end":1117.201,"text":"我問你這個經費是誰的經費你跟我講你算不算這個預算你沒當過台北市議員嗎你不要逃避問題嘛我也想要問你這個經費是誰的經費我真的不知道你說的是哪一筆經費可見我當台北市議員比你認真"},{"start":1128.457,"end":1143.382,"text":"這地方的經費啊高雄市政府都承認了你現在在這邊你跟我講我問過台北市政府重大刑案開挖蒐證是地方的經費來沒關係院長 也許你高市議員久了你不記得沒有關係啦我跟你講齁重點是根本沒有劃分詞你知道吧那個地方根本沒有劃分詞非常好那你再認證第二個謠言來問你齁"},{"start":1158.112,"end":1165.657,"text":"過年期間我的臉書被幾千篇留言洗版說政府現在沒有辦法做長照請問政府現在沒有辦法做長照了嗎"},{"start":1166.84,"end":1195.913,"text":"政府長照還是在做啊非常好啊但是通刪業務費之後有一些業務現在不關的業務會刪了長照哪些不發了不做了不補助了長照本身的預算沒有刪那謝謝你嘛通刪業務費之後就會影響沒有我跟你講你自己都跟我講長照沒有刪業務費通刪你可以自己做調整如果真的不夠我告訴你我說過了今天院長都已經開一條路給你最佳預算很多業務費上面刪了以後說不能留用"},{"start":1197.062,"end":1226.317,"text":"院長 院長 院長我告訴你 業務費有些刪 但是也沒有刪全部啊有刪全部嗎有的被刪全部啊有刪 有刪 你宣傳被刪全部啦業務費有的刪全部啊長照給你業務費刪光啊衛福部 衛福部請問今年跟去年的運算是差多少來 部長上來衛福部的運算今年跟去年是差多少今年比去年少嗎"},{"start":1227.349,"end":1256.349,"text":"委員說外交部的國外旅會被刪你跟我講外交部我現在跟你講衛福部啊我當然跟你講有問題的地方啊拜託我今天質詢的是長照我質詢衛福部你要跟我講別的地方在別的時間講這樣我們就避重就輕怎麼叫避重就輕外交部被刪國外旅會我告訴你今天一下一下你要跟我去講的話我們一下一下講但我今天問的是衛福部我問衛福部你跟我答外交部"},{"start":1257.49,"end":1281.726,"text":"請部長回答部長我問你啊因為長照的需求更多所以我們的確有依照長照的需求增加非常謝謝你嘛你看人家部長比你誠懇多了回答得清清楚楚謝謝你今天幫我澄清三個謠言啦龍部長我只跟你講一件事情啦剛剛我們質詢東西你在旁邊聽喔拜託你啦"},{"start":1282.682,"end":1298.975,"text":"像這些天價的問題跟川普政府好好溝通我在想請教你這是為什麼我今天要開始把這幾個所謂的你們這邊是一時最高三兆預算你自己講的然後一天到晚跟我喊窮如果這樣錢都不夠的話我告訴你啊"},{"start":1303.956,"end":1319.433,"text":"你接下去面對川普,真的不財你的責任就很重大我以為你這樣的邏輯也不大正確我邏輯不正確,你邏輯最正確不是,我們可以互相討論我跟你講最高的預算是增加很多新增項目你不能視而不見這件事實啊"},{"start":1321.389,"end":1347.072,"text":"院長你增加新增相互我就跟你講你說增加兩千億你增加兩千億你把列出來給立法院看嘛我把早上就列啦沒有你列出來就追加預算給大家看嘛如果扣掉這個兩千億就可以去立法院你追加預算給大家看嘛今天院長都跟你講說你又跟我套套循環更何況今天政府難道完全沒有尊潔的空間你跟我講政府沒有尊潔的空間有 這個是我一項的原則"},{"start":1347.81,"end":1366.617,"text":"我對自己的要求,對公務系統的要求,我們都希望能夠尊潔自己院長,我想請教你下一個問題國防預算齁,今年是多少錢?六千四百億嘛,對不對?佔GDP多少?2.5啦差不多啦,將近2.5啦那代總統說要增加多少?"},{"start":1377.045,"end":1404.644,"text":"我們是希望能夠達到GDP的3%那算起來大概是多少還差多少是不是對還差大概一千一千兩百億左右嘛兩三百億左右對不對所以要到七千六百億的規模嘛財政資源有限當然國防預算要適度的增加我們有反對啦是 謝謝可是喔川普要的是10%不是3%啦所以真的還要再好好努力去跟他溝通可以嗎那我們會站在國家的立場好 謝謝"},{"start":1406.687,"end":1429.251,"text":"那我要告訴你下一個問題我想請就教院長川普同意3%了嗎所以我們要在國家最有利的利益所以還沒有嘛還沒開始跟川普政府溝通嘛那這個溝通也一直會持續的進行我要提醒院長今天你去看一看川普對烏克蘭開的是5000億美元的礦產協議嘛換算台幣多少16兆"},{"start":1434.79,"end":1455.204,"text":"他如果可以對烏克蘭開16兆我真的覺得我們中華民國政府行政院真的是要溝通的努力要非常加把勁會努力一定努力對啊他如果今天跟你講說3%他不同意他要5%怎麼辦或是說今天跟你講3%可以明年5%後年10%怎麼辦"},{"start":1457.025,"end":1483.362,"text":"即便說要3% 5%他可能比起創產協議的16兆他還都覺得說今天對台灣客氣啦因為烏克蘭他要16兆啊這些我跟你講當然我知道這邊你沒辦法給我回答啦因為這是你要溝通的過程嘛對不對你已經講原則了嘛那我只要把情勢的一個艱難要告訴你這個情勢的艱難希望我們政府把他放在心上第二個"},{"start":1487.329,"end":1490.474,"text":"台灣偷走美國的晶片產業將對台灣進口的半導體產品徵收關稅以促使製造業回流美國這句話誰說的"},{"start":1498.783,"end":1527.596,"text":"你不應該不知道這句話是川普總統說的但台灣並沒有偷走美國的晶片產業我們是經由雙方的合作我們用代工的方式用先進的製程讓全球的科技都往上發展這個是台灣對現在世界上在先進產業上這一段話我告訴你喔川普不只說了一次他說了好幾次但你今天也是鄭重告訴川普說台灣沒有偷走晶片產業我們是經由合作"},{"start":1528.12,"end":1556.663,"text":"代工的合作跟共同的研發我們現在帶領全球的產業這個立場我支持你謝謝站的堅定一點但是呢要對台灣的進口的晶片產品徵收百分之百的關稅這句話誰說的都是來自川普總統也是川普嘛對不對 關稅政策 對好那我想請問你支持嗎你認為你現在努力的是不希望對台灣有任何不公平的關稅好"},{"start":1557.185,"end":1576.509,"text":"如果全世界的關稅一致的話,那台灣的競爭力...所以你也認為不合理嗎?只要是不公平就我們...距離力爭100%一定不合理的啊,有合理嗎?距離力爭,但是...沒有沒有,倒帶一下100%關稅一定不合理嘛,對不對?報告委員,這不一定啦喔!不一定啦!只不過不一定"},{"start":1577.042,"end":1598.34,"text":"因為他會講100%是為了滿足他國內的競爭力能夠跟國內的競爭力他可能國內的競爭力不足所以他要課100%的稅然後來做一個平衡所以他才會課100%如果他說50%可以了他就課50%他主要是保護他國內的廠商請問你是哪一國的"},{"start":1603.14,"end":1615.695,"text":"你哪一國的他在解釋他的政策不是為他講話我當然知道你在解釋川普的政策啊我是問對中華民國合不合理你跟我講對川普合理我是美國公民會投票給川普啊不是"},{"start":1616.953,"end":1643.689,"text":"那對中華民國合不合理?對中華民國不一定不合理哎呀 原來好沒關係 那我謝謝你啦可以啦 可以啦來 部長 部長你在這邊直接呼應川普對我們晶片苛徵100%的關稅你認為沒有不合理好啦 沒關係啦 我跟你講100%的關稅你是問100%的關稅我問到我要你的答案了我告訴你 部長 院長 院長這個是合理的部長先來 我要跟院長講話"},{"start":1644.81,"end":1661.717,"text":"院長你應該知道剛剛講這句話接下來的後座禮是什麼我們都是在極力爭取你認同嗎剛剛部長講的不要對台灣採取不公平的關稅待遇剛剛就在部長講的嘛你認不認同嘛他是在解釋對方的政策他剛剛講說沒有不合理啊他是解釋對方的政策院長"},{"start":1663.037,"end":1679.325,"text":"的問題非常明確剛剛郭部長講美國對台灣金票科100%的關稅他認為沒有不合理你認同嗎?你不是講這一句話喔部長請你不要再講話了我正問的是院長部長拜託"},{"start":1680.405,"end":1692.55,"text":"不然我可能要請你先下去了喔 不好意思喔我現在跟院長回答問題喔我剛剛已經前半段說不是美國立場我想後半段還說對中華民國來說也沒有不合理你看看 我覺得院長的態度是對的啦"},{"start":1703.96,"end":1721.166,"text":"講得多保守啊你怎麼可以在這邊輕斷的就說美國剋台灣一百八關稅是合理的我跟你講我真的是非常非常擔心什麼叫錯誤啊我講的哪一句話不是引述你講的啊你自己講的啊來 院長"},{"start":1728.618,"end":1746.501,"text":"我還再問你一次沒關係我本來想跳過這一題我也沒時間了我這邊聽到的是部長在解釋美國的內部的立場沒關係啊院長你非常清楚要倒帶三百遍是一樣第一段我嚇到是說你跟我講是他是在解釋美國說解釋美國我今天要你是解釋中華民國立場"},{"start":1747.082,"end":1773.761,"text":"我叫他解釋中華民國立場他還加重於是再強調一次以中華民國的立場就算可以擺發關稅也沒有不合理啊我已經強調跟重申我們自己國家的立場我們不需要有不公平的待遇院長我真的是問不下去我直接告訴你啦如果是這樣的態度啊說真的我為我們的台積電非常的擔心最後啊我跟院長講一個比較感性的事情"},{"start":1776.087,"end":1800.349,"text":"司法應該有人情柯文哲的父親往生我覺得真的院長跟法務部能夠讓他見到父親幫他送個行雖然法務部是說跟家屬之間的溝通聯繫在進行中但我希望是有這個態度"},{"start":1802.216,"end":1816.149,"text":"有些事情好方便讓人家成全孝道我不知道部長可不可以啊我有跟部長講過要尊重家屬的意義對嘛好不好可以啦好那謝謝啊因為這個跟政治無關人情謝謝你謝謝委員提醒"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":519,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（16時32分）主席，有請院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：院長好。請問院長，「呵呵，所以你的小腦袋裡，政府按一個鈕事情就會完全改變了嗎？」這句話是誰的名言？"],["卓院長榮泰：這不算名言啊！這是一句失言！"],["羅委員智強：非常好，你這直接單刀直入，就是你的內閣林靜儀的失言，衛福部次長，他為什麼失言？他在什麼場合說出這樣的失言？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是網路上的一些回話。"],["羅委員智強：全臺醫療院所急診室滿載，加護病房ICU床位一位難求，醫護人員身心俱疲，急診醫學會罕見求救，急診壅塞到前所未有的程度，問題持續引發急診醫護人員大規模離職，對病人安全、醫療品質會造成嚴重的影響。","當醫護人員在病人生死交關的關頭之上，一位急診醫師在社群平臺上請衛福部次長林靜儀來發揮執行力、影響力，改善壅塞的問題，他竟然這樣回答，他說：「你的小腦袋裡，政府按一個鈕事情就會完全改變了嗎？」你剛說是失言，我想請教您，人命關天，官員這種回應，請問林靜儀道歉了沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：他有對外表示他會檢討他的言行。"],["羅委員智強：檢討啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：也應該向聽到的所有的國人表示他心中的歉意，這也是應該做的。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，請他公開道歉，院長已經指示林靜儀公開道歉，這是最起碼的。但是你知道他的檢討是什麼嗎？我再講下一句名言「不該對不明身分來譏諷的回文有反應」，你知道這句話是誰講的嗎？「我不該對不明身分來譏諷的回文有反應」，這就是林靜儀的檢討啊！他說要檢討之後，馬上發文又說：哎呀，我檢討過了。人家檢討，覺得他在哪裡，他錯在哪裡？他怪那個急診醫師，說他身分不明來嘲諷他，他不該回他。院長，你覺得他真的在檢討嗎？他說要檢討之後就發這個文！"],["卓院長榮泰：我是認為如果是我，我是絕對不這樣回答……"],["羅委員智強：對啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我也對我們的政務人員，心中一定要有國家、人民，要謹言慎行，就不會出現今天這樣……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，他就是今天內閣最糟糕的一個範示。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是會希望他用他的專業來服務國人。"],["羅委員智強：我很擔心你到底有沒有辦法約束他。"],["卓院長榮泰：我對我的閣員，我們會互相的檢討、互相的鼓勵、互相的提醒，這個我會做到。"],["羅委員智強：你用愛的鼓勵跟檢討，那我告訴你，他是第一次耍傲慢官威嗎？是嗎？你知道是嗎？來，我再講下一句。「站著說話不腰疼，有心人不要再操作恐懼」，你知道這句名言，誰講的？這兩句名言，誰講的？又是你的內閣林靜儀啊！去年國內生理食鹽水短缺，醫院叫不到貨，林靜儀批評站出來提出問題的醫護，你們站著說話不腰疼，有心人不要再操作恐懼。他也檢討啊！他說：唉呀！我要開始換我的腦袋。請問他腦袋換了沒有？院長，他腦袋換了沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該調整了。"],["羅委員智強：他去年已經一次啊，他說要換腦袋，腦袋換了沒有？他大腦袋換成小腦袋啊！去嘲笑第一線救死扶傷向林靜儀求救的急診醫師。我先送院長一句話「朱門酒肉臭，急診病死骨，次長小腦袋，政府大官威。」我這句話送給林靜儀，我也送給部長，我也請院長好好想一想。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都深深自我檢討。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝，不要只是自我檢討而已，好好約束這樣的官員。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，也請部長一起來努力。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["邱部長泰源：是，是的。"],["羅委員智強：第一個先叫他趕快發文道歉，不要什麼深自檢討，檢討了半天，還在檢討別人！部長，可以吧？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["羅委員智強：最起碼叫他誠心道歉啦！有人叫他下台，我覺得最起碼先誠心道歉啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提醒，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：好，非常謝謝院長跟部長。我想請教院長，「不會讓十代烏克蘭人買單」，你知道這句話誰說的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員指示。"],["羅委員智強：這是烏克蘭總統澤倫斯基的悲嘆，你知道為什麼澤倫斯基會發出這樣的悲嘆，你知道嗎？院長，國際時事，可是你還是要知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是因為戰爭之後，他的有感而發吧！"],["羅委員智強：院長，您掌握國家大事，這個是最新的一個狀況，澤倫斯基現在面對最大的問題是什麼，俄羅斯以外，正面跟俄羅斯作戰……"],["卓院長榮泰：就是美國總統對他有一些談判上的要求。"],["羅委員智強：非常好！他會發這個悲嘆是因為烏俄戰爭即將滿3年了，面對俄羅斯的入侵，澤倫斯基在戰場的正面是面對俄羅斯如狼似虎的攻勢，但是在戰場的後方，他遇到另外一個麻煩，那就是美國總統川普要求烏克蘭要簽署價值高達5,000億美元天價、所謂澤倫斯基口中要十代烏克蘭人才能償還的礦產協議，這個你應該知道吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["羅委員智強：這個新聞你應該知道吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["羅委員智強：這目前是全球最關切的。如果總統是國家的司機，你覺得澤倫斯基該接受川普這個天價協議嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該站在自己國家最有利的角度，維護國家的主權、尊嚴跟安全，才能跟國外做任何談判，所以臺灣，我們中華民國臺灣也是一樣，我們一定要把自己強化起來，像今天因為我們有高科技的領先地位，我們有一點點談判的空間，我們要珍惜這個空間，盡量發揮……"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝你的談判空間，這是我後面要問你，你也知道，但是我覺得更重要的問題，先不講該不該，你覺得澤倫斯基能拒絕川普這個天價協議嗎？他有能力拒絕嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得澤倫斯基總統要衡量現在他自己國內戰爭的情況，以他自己在戰爭當中……"],["羅委員智強：你講的是該不該的層次，我問的是能不能的層次。"],["卓院長榮泰：我很難替他回答，他要衡量自己的情況。"],["羅委員智強：當然啦，你不是烏克蘭總統，你沒辦法替他回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["羅委員智強：不管烏克蘭的國家司機澤倫斯基總統答應還是不答應川普的天價協議，歷經3年血戰的烏克蘭面臨了對俄割地、對美賠款的一個危機，這才是讓人覺得非常惋惜跟同情的地方。對於澤倫斯基的處境，我們是感到非常的同情。可是我下一個要問你，中華民國有一個司機，掌握國家的司機是誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果你這樣形容的話，應該是總統帶著大家一起往前進。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，賴清德總統拍廣告片也認為他是司機嘛，對不對？接蔡英文總統司機的棒子，所以是清德司機。那我要問坐在清德司機車上協助駕駛的您，如果川普也對臺灣開出天價，你覺得清德司機該不該接受川普開的天價？如果啦。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就應該像我剛剛說過的，站在對國家最有利的角度，去維護國家的主權、安全跟尊嚴，那我們現在有高科技做基礎，我們應該用這個跟世界說，我們願意跟大家成為可以信賴的夥伴，所以，我們倡議全球的民主工業從半導體、人工智慧這樣開始。"],["羅委員智強：好，那我就跟你一個一個來看您這個立場怎麼面對川普開的天價。川普其實對臺灣已經開出了3個天價，院長知道吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：您說的是……"],["羅委員智強：他已經對臺灣直接開出3個天價。"],["卓院長榮泰：包括國防在內的嗎？"],["羅委員智強：對。國防第一個，他要求GDP的多少？不會不知道吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：他要求是10。"],["羅委員智強：10%嘛，對不對？第二個天價……"],["卓院長榮泰：不只針對臺灣，他對很多國家都這樣要求。"],["羅委員智強：對啦，沒關係啦，他對臺灣要求其實比較多，你如果仔細看，10%，他對臺灣要的是最多的，沒錯吧？我的國際情勢掌握沒錯吧？他對北約也要求、對哪裡也要求，但是對臺灣他特別期待，他期待是10%，沒錯吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：前幾天總統在國安高層會議說我們要3%，當時美國已經列為當中的重大訊息了，同時他也應該知道這個訊息。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，後面再跟你就教這件事。"],["卓院長榮泰：雙方應該有這種互信的基礎。"],["羅委員智強：第二個天價是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員……"],["羅委員智強：台積電嘛，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員智強：第三個天價，這個不是針對臺灣啦，他在全球都要解決他們的貿易逆差問題。現在問第一個天價，臺灣2024年GDP是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：你說國內生產毛額嗎？"],["羅委員智強：對，去年。"],["卓院長榮泰：25.4兆臺幣。"],["羅委員智強：好，那按照川普的要求到10%是新臺幣多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是這個25.4兆臺幣的10%，就是2.5兆臺幣。"],["羅委員智強：那你知道臺灣有史以來通過最高政府總預算是哪一年？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是2025年。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，就是114年度，多少錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：3兆1,325億。"],["羅委員智強：立法院預算刪除之後剩多少？2兆9,000億左右，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是立法院宣讀的數字，那核算出來的數字，我們還沒有辦法加總。"],["羅委員智強：3兆左右啦，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是通過的，如果是剛剛說的宣讀的數字之外，我已經報告過，我們有2,806億是新增的項目。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：扣掉這些的話……"],["羅委員智強：預算，我跟你講，我後面還要跟你講，我現在講國際情勢。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["羅委員智強：國防預算是GDP的10%，2.5兆，你剛才已經講現在是3兆，那你知道這是什麼概念嗎？占多少你知道嗎？如果是真的到GDP的10%的話，將近85%，對不對？根本不可能的事嘛！是不是天價？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，那你覺得我們能接受嗎？不可能嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：依照臺灣現在的財政結構跟財政規劃，以總統講的，我們朝GDP3%來做規劃。"],["羅委員智強：這我後面會跟你講，第一個，你也不認為我們有辦法接受川普開的這第一個天價。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們要有合理的談判的空間。"],["羅委員智強：當然合理談判是政府希望你去努力的。","那我告訴你慘在哪裡？我們現在通過的，你自己都講是政府有史以來最高的預算3兆，比馬政府時高出多少？比馬政府平均的預算高出多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：那時候好像不到2兆。"],["羅委員智強：對，平均高出1兆耶！你知道今天院長拿到3兆預算，比馬政府要多出1兆，而且是歷史新高，請問現在我們政府的上上下下是在幹什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：2016年我們的GDP只有16.7兆，2024年我們有25.3兆。"],["羅委員智強：院長，我要跟你講，這樣是成長50%，那你跟我講GDP在8年內有成長50%嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，2016年我們是16.7兆。"],["羅委員智強：我要問你的是錢的問題，是夠不夠的問題，如果扣掉那2.5兆你覺得還夠用嗎？夠不夠用？"],["卓院長榮泰：什麼？"],["羅委員智強：扣掉那2.5兆還夠不夠用？"],["卓院長榮泰：2.5兆？"],["羅委員智強：如果真的照川普講的，要GDP的10%就是2.5兆，那還夠不夠用？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照臺灣現在的國力，我們很難達到。"],["羅委員智強：當然不夠用嘛！我們為什麼不夠用？3兆你都不夠用了，你都一直喊窮了，更何況2.5兆啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起，委員，不是我……"],["羅委員智強：我要問你幾個問題，我先跟你講，現在政府整個在喊窮喊到什麼程度。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是喊窮，是我們……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係啦，院長，我難得在這個地方，我心中有幾個強大的疑惑。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有很多新興項目在裡面。"],["羅委員智強：我現在心中有個強大的疑惑。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員智強：面對歷史新高的預算，你知道政府喊窮喊到什麼程度？然後外面的網路，沿著政府喊窮開始作文章跟放謠言到什麼程度？我也沒看到今天政府有出來闢謠啊！我要講幾件事，第一個，我們最近有棒球賽對不對？第一場對西班牙的時候不幸落敗，對不對？沒錯吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員智強：今天晚上我們希望能夠扳回一城嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：一定要贏。"],["羅委員智強：對，一定要贏嘛！可是你知道嗎？第一場對西班牙輸了，你知道一堆網路上的謠言就出來說，輸西班牙是因為藍白刪預算。院長，輸西班牙是因為藍白刪預算嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，政府沒有辦法一一地為……"],["羅委員智強：喔！政府遇到……院長，你這樣不公平啦！以前政府，你在的時候對不對？民進黨執政的時候，打假打謠言打得多兇啊！還查水表，連社會秩序維護法都搬出來，你現在跟我講，政府沒辦法因應所有的謠言。"],["卓院長榮泰：像我們po了一些對球隊鼓勵的話……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係啦，你沒有辦法因應，所以第一個，你要告訴我這是不是謠言？在這裡跟我講。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有經過查證的一些事情，傳播出來啊！"],["羅委員智強：是嘛，這就是謠言啊！還是你要認證今天棒球打輸是藍白刪預算，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果委員今天來問我……"],["羅委員智強：我直接問你，體育署今年比去年多多少錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛委員有談到……"],["羅委員智強：20億嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們還有一個基金，基金還沒有審過……"],["羅委員智強：我再問你第二件事情，我們這屆立法院有刪棒球預算一毛錢嗎？有沒有刪？"],["卓院長榮泰：只有通刪的部分刪了業務費，刪了出國旅費。"],["羅委員智強：通刪的部分，棒球的經費、運動發展基金，以前你們民進黨自己宣稱，是從運動發展基金出來啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員今天問我，棒球打輸是不是刪預算？我會跟你說不是，但是……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：刪預算的結果，刪的業務費……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：會讓我們很多的業務無法順利執行。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，你要講別的東西，今天是講也講不清啦！你現在到處跟我講，這個有影響，那個有影響，但是展現在國人面前的就是你剛剛講的啊！預算是有史以來的歷史新高啊！我今天是很不想在這邊跟你說，蔡英文就是怎麼樣？難道蔡英文今天的2兆8,000億、2兆9,000億，政府已經倒了嗎？馬英九的1兆8,000億、1兆9,000億就倒了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，讓我講一句話。我們有2,806億的新增計畫，裡面有那麼多項，早上我已經報告過了……"],["羅委員智強：我還沒跟你講，我後面還要講到川普欸！你要不要學學川普啊？川普政府下一步，光是第一波就刪了多少預算？請問？是自己刪的，還不用等到國會刪喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果刪得有道理，當然大家會支持。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，道理是你訂的嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果刪到讓整個政府現在很難……"],["羅委員智強：現在整個政府啊……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果刪到讓我們整個政府窒礙難行，我們當然要據理力爭啊！"],["羅委員智強：院長，我告訴你，這邊我跟你講，你說你的、我說我的，反正也是扯不清啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，真理是可以討論出來的。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，鐵的事實很簡單，鐵的事實就是政府今年的預算是最高的。我再問你第二個問題，我跟你講，你今天耗到整場結束，我知道我也不能說服你，我沒打算也沒辦法說服你。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們有2,806億的新增事項，不能……"],["羅委員智強：第二個，院長，沒關係，這個放在到後面啦！反正你們行政機器這麼大，你們的論點我也聽了一百遍了，但是我關心的東西可以讓我問吧？可不可以，院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：你要把我的答復，當作你想像的一部分，再來引申你的問題，這樣子……"],["羅委員智強：沒有啊！請問棒球打輸是藍白刪預算嗎？你說不是的，我有想像什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以2,806億的新增預算要加在預算裡面，你就會覺得今年這麼高……"],["羅委員智強：院長，對於3兆預算，你跟我講有新增計畫，但實際上，今天扣掉台電的1,000億，立法院整個刪了半天刪了1,000億啦！你跟我講兩千多億，立法院除了台電新增計畫，你超收稅收都5,000億，你現在跟我講不夠用！那我最後再問一件事……"],["卓院長榮泰：實徵數……"],["羅委員智強：院長已經跟您說了，韓院長跟您說，不夠用怎麼辦？真的不夠用怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：不夠用，有的是不能……"],["羅委員智強：追加預算嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：有的是不能流用，有的是不能追加……"],["羅委員智強：請問能不能追加預算？能不能追加預算？"],["卓院長榮泰：不能流用的、刪到零的怎麼辦？"],["羅委員智強：你能不能追加預算？你追加預算來這邊好好討論啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：追加預算要符合預算法第七十九條的規定。"],["羅委員智強：你先把追加預算拿出來看看，到底哪一個跟你講，你講的一些新增計畫沒辦法做的……"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員……"],["羅委員智強：你一件事都不做，在那邊說做不了！"],["卓院長榮泰：現在還不是追加預算……"],["羅委員智強：請教下一個問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：現在還不是追加預算的時候啊！"],["羅委員智強：高雄連續殺人分屍案要蒐證，卻沒有辦法開挖化糞池，是因為藍白刪預算嗎？是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有聽清楚。"],["羅委員智強：高雄連續殺人分屍案要蒐證，沒有錢開挖化糞池，是藍白刪預算嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我不懂這個邏輯。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，我也不懂啊！我當過臺北市議員，你也當過臺北市議員，像這種刑案蒐證，如果真的有要開挖化糞池的時候，是誰要出這個經費的？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在臺北市議會都不會這樣刪預算的。"],["羅委員智強：我問你這個經費是誰的經費？你跟我講你刪不刪這個預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：我不知道，我不知道這個經費……"],["羅委員智強：你沒當過臺北市議員嗎？你不要逃避問題嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我說我們在臺北市議會都不會這樣刪預算的。"],["羅委員智強：我再問你，這個經費是誰的經費？"],["卓院長榮泰：我真的不知道你說的是哪一筆經費。"],["羅委員智強：可見我當臺北市議員比你認真，這是地方的經費啊！高雄市政府都承認了，你現在在這邊，你跟我講……"],["卓院長榮泰：我大概沒有能力……"],["羅委員智強：我問過臺北市政府，重大刑案開挖蒐證是地方的經費。沒關係！院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我應該沒有能力了解高雄市政府怎麼編預算。"],["羅委員智強：也許你當市議員久了，你不記得沒有關係，我跟你講，重點是根本沒有化糞池，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我說……"],["羅委員智強：那個地方根本沒有化糞池……"],["卓院長榮泰：我就不曉得這個邏輯是怎麼形成的。"],["羅委員智強：非常好！那你再認證第二個謠言，我問你，過年期間我的臉書被幾千篇留言洗版，說政府現在沒有辦法做長照。請問政府現在沒有辦法做長照了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：政府長照還是在做啊！但是……"],["羅委員智強：非常好啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：但是通刪業務費之後，有一些相關的業務會受到影響。"],["羅委員智強：我問你，你跟我講，長照哪些不發了、不做了、不補助了？"],["卓院長榮泰：長照本身的預算沒有刪，可是……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：通刪業務費之後就會影響。"],["羅委員智強：沒有，我跟你講，你自己都跟我講長照預算沒有刪……"],["卓院長榮泰：比方我們外交部……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，業務費通刪，你可以自己做調整，如果真的不夠，我告訴你，我說過了，今天院長都已經開一條路給你增加預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：很多業務費上面刪了以後說不能流用。"],["羅委員智強：院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：通案裡面。"],["羅委員智強：院長、院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：你應該比我了解……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，業務費有些刪，但是也沒有刪全部啊！有刪全部嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有的被刪全部啊！"],["羅委員智強：有的刪，你宣傳費刪全部啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：業務費有的刪全部啊！"],["羅委員智強：長照的業務費刪光啦？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的……"],["羅委員智強：衛福部，請問今年跟去年的預算是差多少？請部長上來……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們行政院的就被刪了啊！"],["羅委員智強：衛福部的預算今年跟去年是差多少？今年比去年少嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，外交部的國外旅費被刪……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講長照，你跟我講外交部，我現在跟你講衛福部啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然跟你講有問題的地方啊！"],["羅委員智強：拜託！我今天質詢的是長照，我質詢的是衛福部，你要跟我講別的地方在別的時間講……"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣我們就避重就輕，你講……"],["羅委員智強：什麼叫避重就輕？"],["卓院長榮泰：外交部被刪國外旅費，這合理嗎？"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，今天一項一項你要跟我去講的話，我們一項一項講，但我今天問的是衛福部，我問衛福部，你給我答外交部。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長回答。"],["羅委員智強：部長，我問你啊……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，因為長照的需求更多，所以我們的確有依照長照的需求增加經費。"],["羅委員智強：非常謝謝你嘛！你看人家部長比你誠懇多了，回答得清清楚楚，謝謝你今天幫我澄清三個謠言啊！","部長，我只跟你講一件事情，剛剛我們質詢的東西，你在旁邊聽，拜託你，像這些天價的問題，跟川普政府好好溝通。","我再想請教你，你們這是歷史最高3兆預算，你自己講的，然後一天到晚跟我喊窮，如果這樣錢都不夠的話，我告訴你，你接下去面對川普，真的，部長，你的責任就很重大了……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你這樣的邏輯也不大正確啦！"],["羅委員智強：我的邏輯不正確，你的邏輯最正確？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我們可以互相討論……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講……"],["卓院長榮泰：最高的預算是增加了很多新增項目，你不能視而不見，這件事是事實啊！"],["羅委員智強：院長、院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果不要增加這些新增項目……"],["羅委員智強：你增加新增項目，我就跟你講，你說增加2,000億，你增加2,000億，你把它列出來給立法院看嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們早上就列了啊！"],["羅委員智強：你列出來，那就追加預算給大家看嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果扣掉這2,000億就跟去年一樣啊！"],["羅委員智強：你追加預算給大家看嘛！今天院長都跟你講，你又跟我套套循環，更何況今天政府難道完全沒有撙節的空間？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為你一直說我們最高的……"],["羅委員智強：你跟我講政府沒有撙節的空間？"],["卓院長榮泰：有，這個是我一向的原則，我對自己的要求、對公務系統的要求，我們都希望能夠撙節……"],["羅委員智強：院長，我想請教您下一個問題，國防預算今年是多少錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該是六千多……"],["羅委員智強：6,400億，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，六千多億。"],["羅委員智強：占GDP多少？2.5%啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：2.4%左右。"],["羅委員智強：差不多啦！將近2.5%。賴總統說要增加到多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是希望能夠達到GDP的百分之三。"],["羅委員智強：那算起來大概是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：還差多少是不是？"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：還差大概一千二百、一千三百億左右……"],["羅委員智強：一千兩百億左右嘛！所以要到7,600億的規模。財政資源有限，當然國防預算要適度的增加，我沒有反對。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：可是川普要的是10%，不是3%，所以真的還要再好好努力去跟他溝通，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會站在國家的立場。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝。","我要告訴你下一個問題，我想就教院長，川普同意3%了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們要站在國家最有利的立場，去做更多的溝通……"],["羅委員智強：所以還沒有嘛！還沒開始跟川普政府溝通嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個溝通也一直會持續的進行，我們希望達到期待的結果。"],["羅委員智強：我要提醒院長，今天你去看看，川普對烏克蘭開的是5,000億美元的礦產協議，換算臺幣是多少？16兆，他如果可以對烏克蘭開16兆，我真的覺得我們中華民國政府、我們行政院溝通的努力真的是要非常加把勁。"],["卓院長榮泰：會努力，一定努力。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！他如果今天跟你講說，3%他不同意，他要5%，怎麼辦？或是今天跟你講3%可以，明年5%，後年10%，怎麼辦？即便說3%、5%，比起礦產協議的16兆，可能他還都覺得今天對臺灣客氣啦！因為烏克蘭他要16兆。這些當然我知道在這邊你沒辦法給我回答，因為這是你要溝通的過程，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員智強：你已經講原則了，我只是要把情勢的艱難告訴你，這個情勢的艱難希望我們政府把它放在心上。","第二個「臺灣『偷走』美國的晶片產業，將對臺灣進口的半導體產品徵收關稅，以促使製造業回流美國。」這句話是誰說的？你不應該不知道這句話是誰說的嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：也是川普總統說的，但臺灣並沒有偷走美國的晶片產業……"],["羅委員智強：非常好……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是經過雙方的合作，我們用代工的方式，用先進的製程，讓全球的科技都往上發展，這個是臺灣在現在世界先進產業上的一個重要角色。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，這一段話川普不只說了一次，他說了好幾次，但你今天也是鄭重告訴川普說，臺灣沒有偷走晶片產業。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是經由代工的合作跟共同的研發，我們現在帶領全球的產業和產業的發展。"],["羅委員智強：這個立場我支持你，站得堅定一點。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：但是要對臺灣進口的晶片產品徵收百分之百的關稅，這句話是誰說的？"],["卓院長榮泰：都是來自川普總統的關稅政策。"],["羅委員智強：也是川普嘛！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["羅委員智強：那我想請問你支持嗎？你認為……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在努力的是不希望對臺灣有任何不公平的關稅，如果全世界的關稅一致的話，那臺灣的競爭力……"],["羅委員智強：所以你也認為不合理嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：只要是不公平，我們會據理力爭。"],["羅委員智強：100%一定不合理啦！有合理嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：會據理力爭。"],["羅委員智強：沒有、沒有，倒帶一下，100%關稅一定不合理嘛！對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這不一定啦！"],["羅委員智強：喔！不一定啊？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["羅委員智強：怎麼說不一定？"],["郭部長智輝：因為他會講100%是為了滿足他國內的競爭力能夠跟……他可能國內的競爭力不足，所以他要課100%的稅，然後來做一個平衡，所以他才會課100%。如果他說50%可以了，他就課50%，他主要是保護他國內的廠商，所以他會課100%。"],["羅委員智強：請問你是哪一國的啊？"],["郭部長智輝：啊？"],["羅委員智強：你哪一國的啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：他在解釋他的政策，不是為他講話。"],["羅委員智強：廢話，我當然知道你在解釋川普的政策啊！我是問對中華民國合不合理，你跟我講對川普合理，我是美國公民我也投票給川普啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不是，委員你不要……"],["羅委員智強：那對中華民國合不合理？"],["郭部長智輝：對中華民國不一定不合理。"],["羅委員智強：哎呀！原來……沒關係，那我謝謝你啊！可以了……"],["郭部長智輝：因為你不夠內行嘛！這個部分你不懂啊！"],["羅委員智強：部長，你在這邊直接呼應川普對我們晶片課徵100%關稅，你認為沒有不合理？"],["郭部長智輝：因為100%的關稅……"],["羅委員智強：好啦，沒關係，我跟你講。"],["郭部長智輝：因為100%的關稅，你是問100%的關稅喔！他如果對韓國也是課100%的關稅……"],["羅委員智強：好啦，沒關係啦！我問到我要的答案了，我告訴你，院長……"],["郭部長智輝：這個是合理的。"],["羅委員智強：部長，你先等一下，我要跟院長講話。院長，你應該知道他剛剛講這句話接下來的後座力是什麼。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都是在極力爭取……"],["羅委員智強：你認同剛剛部長講的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不要對臺灣採取不公平的關稅待遇。"],["羅委員智強：剛剛部長講的你認不認同嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：他是在解釋對方的政策，不是……"],["羅委員智強：他剛剛講說沒有不合理啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，他是解釋對方的政策，我們……"],["羅委員智強：院長，我的問題非常明確，剛剛郭部長講，美國對臺灣晶片要課100%的關稅，他認為沒有不合理，你認同嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：你是講這一句話喔……"],["羅委員智強：部長，請你不要再講話了，我現在問的是院長。部長，拜託，不然我可能要請你先下去了，不好意思喔，我現在在請院長回答問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，部長講的是在美國的立場來講，他認為是這樣子，但是……"],["羅委員智強：我剛剛前半段已經說不是美國的立場，我講後半段，他還說，對中華民國來說也沒有不合理。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，重要的是我剛剛說的，我們會努力不要產生不公平的關稅。"],["羅委員智強：部長，你看看，我覺得院長態度是對的，講得多保守啊！"],["郭部長智輝：這個是我們的……"],["羅委員智強：你怎麼可以在這邊輕斷的說，美國課臺灣100%的關稅是合理的？"],["郭部長智輝：委員，我是回答你的問題……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，我真的是非常非常擔心……"],["郭部長智輝：你是問錯誤的問題……"],["羅委員智強：什麼叫錯誤啊！"],["郭部長智輝：當然啊！"],["羅委員智強：我講的哪一句話不是引述你講的？"],["郭部長智輝：你講的是設一個限制在那裡。"],["羅委員智強：你自己講的啊！院長，我再問你一次，沒關係，我本來想跳過這題，我也沒時間了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我這邊聽到的是部長在解釋美國內部的立場是這樣子，我們是要以我們的……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，院長，你非常清楚，你要倒帶三百遍也是一樣，第一段我被嚇到的是，你跟我講他是在解釋美國的立場，但我今天要的是解釋中華民國的立場，我叫他解釋中華民國的立場，他還加重語氣再強調一次說，以中華民國的立場，就算課100%的關稅也沒有不合理啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我已經強調跟重申我們自己國家的立場了，我們不希望有不公平的關稅待遇。"],["羅委員智強：院長，我真的是問不下去，我直接告訴你，如果是這樣的態度，說真的，我為我們的台積電感到非常擔心。","最後，我跟院長講一個比較感性的事情，司法應該要有人情，柯文哲的父親往生，我希望院長跟法務部能夠讓他見到父親、幫他送個行，雖然法務部是說跟家屬之間的溝通聯繫在進行中，但我希望是有這個態度啦！有些事情方便讓人家成全孝道，我不知道部長可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：我有跟部長講過要尊重家屬的意願。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛，好不好？可以啦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝，因為這個跟政治無關，是人情啦！謝謝你。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員提醒，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，本日排定的質詢委員均已詢答完畢，謝謝卓院長、鄭副院長以及各部會首長列席答詢。","現在作以下決定：下次會議繼續進行施政方針及施政報告之質詢。","現在散會。","散會（17時3分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":232,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","范雲","吳春城","傅崐萁","陳培瑜","陳俊宇","羅智強"],"page_start":13,"meetingDate":["2025-02-25"],"gazette_id":"1142401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142401_00002","1142401_00003","1142401_00004","1142401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告並備質詢─ 進行質詢─","agenda_id":"1142401_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}