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行政院都非常尊重我們在立法院所提出的各議案然後經三讀通過然後在你們這些執政的時候"},{"start":118.74,"end":147.174,"text":"只要是我們不管是在野或是其他的友黨共同能夠經過三讀通過也是合法的程序那為何你們處處都要提出一個復議案或者是違憲百姓不解很多我們非常善良的百姓非常不解那另外就是如果總預算及財化法復議案"},{"start":148.206,"end":171.337,"text":"未通過實際上其詳細的會影響哪些部會和哪些政務請教一下院長明確的說明我先跟委員報告我提出過四點若不是對憲政的秩序有破壞若不是影響到人民的權利若不是讓行政院在執行預算上面自在難行"},{"start":172.518,"end":193.356,"text":"若不是沒有經過充分的討論跟民主的表決行政院是不會輕易提出的我想朝野協商都已經經過了這個程序來跟行政院討論這些才化法包含我們這些選罷法"},{"start":195.258,"end":211.031,"text":"及總預算都有經過程序來做一個協商討論你總是會提到自愛難行自愛難行然後又提出違憲或者是復議這就是一個執政單位一個胸襟"},{"start":212.165,"end":238.363,"text":"到底能不能以百姓為主要百姓的扶持今天我們是監督監督我們的總預算包含有不公不義的我們都在這個地方表決這是非常清楚的但行政院老是用這樣的一個方案自愛難行又提出復議這造成了很多"},{"start":239.283,"end":262.6,"text":"國人或是產生債爺或是以持政黨的一個對立這對百姓來講真的是不好的一句話就好我們在大院的委員職權刑事法當中經過釋憲它確實有違憲之處所以這個程序是讓大家能夠再回到憲法的秩序那現在緊接著來的包括財化法"},{"start":263.96,"end":289.309,"text":"包括選罷法等等都還在這個程序當中這個都還沒有經過過期這個案例來講不會常態性的但是有個案但是不會常態性所以在民主的程序我們都已經走過了我想 院長我是一個中華民國阿美族"},{"start":290.478,"end":308.129,"text":"在台灣我想我們在對人之間都是一個善待針對福國利民的當然我們是以誠來訴說好不好你思考很多委員都已經提到這個方案"},{"start":309.129,"end":323.898,"text":"百姓都已經是交鎖在那個地方為什麼我們今天的才化法是不能執行的今天有很多的福邊我們就是要監督這是我們的責任"},{"start":325.198,"end":350.552,"text":"有辦法的水平分配是有問題的我講到這個就好了那希望你能夠再做一個思考總統的國務績號費全部被刪除這個是鐵的事實兩千萬被刪除一千萬被凍結這個是鐵的事實讓總統在國務績號費上面是沒有辦法執行監察院百分之百被刪減跟凍結不管是刪減凍結我們都已經有在各個委員會裡面都有相互的尊重"},{"start":351.152,"end":362.907,"text":"而且多有一些解凍的問題今天已經三月初了這三個月以來總統的郭家輝是沒有辦法凍的監察院是百倍刪減跟凍結但是也是沒有辦法凍的這個是鐵的事實"},{"start":366.141,"end":389.711,"text":"反正現在你們執政黨說了就算了這個是事實啊那沒有尊重到民意的基礎我們就是民意代表了民意來訴諸這些政府能夠按照民意尊重民意所以副議是希望民意重新審視好現在我講的國防議題好 國防議題你們部會請國安部長備詢"},{"start":401.465,"end":413.727,"text":"有關於賴清德打算要提特別預算將國防支出提高到GDP的3%賴總統在2月14號召開國安會議並在會議後表示將優先編制特別預算讓國防預算達到GDP的3%以上的目標院長政府將提出國防採購的特別預算"},{"start":431.926,"end":460.263,"text":"那這件事已經是確定了嗎在總統主持國安高層會議之後基於國家的需要我們要強化自己的國防力量我們還有很多先進的武器跟我們後續的裝備還有人員的整備都必須要全面的提升所以如果用公務預算長年的公務預算在執行上顯然是困難的顯然是沒有辦法一次做整套的一個預算的規劃所以未來我們已經朝向"},{"start":461.679,"end":485.531,"text":"要請求立法院也能夠一起來支持那院長的回答是嘛 是吧是 我們希望大院也能夠來支持好 待會我提出以上的幾項要特別預算的編列的幾個規定我必須要再跟國人瞭解也要跟院長瞭解這樣的一個編列特別預算的舉動"},{"start":486.9,"end":514.447,"text":"是不是政府向川普政府展現了我們致力對抗中共的威脅的潔心所以你剛剛已經回答是所以賴總統提出的這個特別預算實際上是一種向美國的表態目的是在回應川普在以美國總統大選期間指責我國國防支出不足並要求我國應該把經費提高到"},{"start":515.447,"end":544.274,"text":"GDP的百分之十的訴求也是在回應川普要求台灣要支付防衛的保護費院長我國編列特別預算條件是什麼以下我要讓你知道如果你現在可以回答你也可以馬上回答我我們為了國家重大正式的支出是需要我們可以用稅金甚至有舉債的方式來編列特別預算"},{"start":545.673,"end":571.839,"text":"剛剛我講的我國編列的特別預算的要件是什麼如果你不回答我現在我根據根據預算法的83條特別預算的提出要件必須是什麼第一個國防緊急設施或戰爭第二國家經濟重大的變故第三重大的災變第四"},{"start":577.964,"end":603.633,"text":"第四不定期或數年一次是重大的正事請問一下院長這樣的要件當中有沒有任何一項滿足外國政府需求的沒有一項是需求我們沒有依照委員說的理由啊我國編列是我們政府自己的事國防支出是否一定要達到GPT的百分之三要看"},{"start":604.553,"end":630.93,"text":"國家實際財政狀況來需求而不是看美國的需求中華民國是獨立自主的一個國家不是美國的附庸國這請民進黨政府要搞清楚國家的立場剛剛以下四點我都已經提出來第一 國家緊急涉事戰爭或戰爭二 國家經濟重大變故三 重大災變"},{"start":632.951,"end":652.481,"text":"第四不定期或數年一次之中重大的正式這個就是在預算特別法裡面第83條講得非常清楚我們第二個很多委員現在提出我們現在的士官兵"},{"start":654.062,"end":680.648,"text":"加入我們國軍的戰力是不是要提出一到三萬未來提高他們的薪資以保障軍人的待遇現在我們國防要提高到百分之三我們的軍備當然國軍戰力我絕對支持可是胡編亂編或者是要提高到GDP的百分之三對我們國政的財政"},{"start":681.408,"end":705.205,"text":"的支出絕對是影響 絕對影響那如果今天我們在招兵在募兵的制度裡面到現在都沒有達標那我們如何要在比例原則能夠在這個中間裡面來拉近如果你3%的GDP好 我們國金的國利呢你說"},{"start":708.035,"end":726.811,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是根據預算法的83條的第一項第四款剛剛你有念到就是說如果有數年一次的重大證實可以在年度的總預算外提出特別預算那因為如果達到GDP的3%"},{"start":728.257,"end":743.674,"text":"我們如果都放在年度的總預算內有可能會排擠到你回答得非常好但是現在我要告訴你我國目前的狀況狀態是什麼是在戰爭還是準戰爭還是在動亂"},{"start":745.18,"end":771.666,"text":"還是在持平的時期各位委員報告第四款它沒有這樣的要件如果你搭配第二項的規定來看的話如果是屬於緊急的狀態之下它甚至是可以因應情勢的緊急需要可以先行支付一部分那沒有包括第四款所以特別預算的編列如果是屬於四年一次的重大正式那這一個部分有特別需要的話就可以編列特別預算"},{"start":772.126,"end":782.267,"text":"所以我們包括A-16B也是特別預算包括我們的海空戰力特別提升也是提出特別預算這個都是有潛力的國金的提升"},{"start":783.578,"end":797.088,"text":"戰備的提升我們沒見我絕對支持可是現在不是在戰爭中或是準戰爭而且不是在動亂另外就是現在我們是陳平的時期裡面沒有有這樣的要件不以這個為前提"},{"start":802.532,"end":819.962,"text":"不以這個為前提所以您看特別對到第二項現在我要講的是比例原則好不好我們現在的募兵制度募兵政策沒有達標如何因應我們要提高到我們的戰備戰力所以這個就是一個比例原則"},{"start":820.982,"end":839.604,"text":"所以我們要讓國人知道不是要提高到我們的戰備然後我們沒有阿兵哥沒有官士兵所以這邊我再請教一下 院長根據斯科達達爾摩國際和平研究所"},{"start":841.406,"end":852.711,"text":"2023世界金市支出趨勢報告中提出2023各國金市支出佔GDP的比例超過3%的國家有美國3.4%俄國5.9%沙烏地阿拉伯7.1%"},{"start":862.655,"end":864.997,"text":"烏克蘭37%波蘭3.8%以色列5.3%阿爾及利亞8.2%科威特4.9%希臘3.2%阿曼5.4%"},{"start":880.786,"end":889.854,"text":"那全球平均的國防戰備的支出佔在2.3%其中超過5%的國家幾乎都是正在戰爭當中或處在動亂的國家連美國全世界駐軍的打戰他的經費支出也只不過是GDP的3.4%那請教一下這是事實啊"},{"start":908.749,"end":912.012,"text":"媒體都這樣子報道了我現在不講中華人民共和國我們現在講的是全球全球如果講中共這樣的話等一下又被你們抹紅抹黑今天我們講全球我們根據這個"},{"start":932.387,"end":949.278,"text":"斯德格摩爾國際和平研究所所報導出來的所以他沒有調查中國嗎他沒有調查中國沒有寫啊有沒有沒有寫他沒有寫調查中國那我們再查一下中國"},{"start":950.396,"end":975.197,"text":"所以我們在整個國際裡面來講我們提高到百分之三如果按照平均值來2.3應該是符合在全球裡面站在這樣的一個國防支出所以部長你認為我們一定要提高到百分之三嗎跟委員報告 據我了解中國的年度的國防運算的支出"},{"start":976.547,"end":995.477,"text":"因為他不是很透明所以不是很清楚大概估算大概在4000億美金左右這個這樣子的一個規模再加上中國始終不放棄無力犯台我們在這樣子的一個面對這個敵情日益嚴峻的這樣子的一個年代我們要加"},{"start":996.84,"end":1023.837,"text":"民主同盟的概念來加強自我防衛的能力跟決心這是必要的一個展現如果我們不能夠提升自我防衛的能力的話那麼我想沒有辦法傳遞出這樣的一個訊息的話國際不會伸出援手的所以我們要展現這樣的自我防衛能力跟決心當然GDP的3%這樣的一個目標如果說"},{"start":1024.793,"end":1046.469,"text":"我們依照實際防衛的需求能夠快速的獲得我們所需要的四大面向我們一再強調就是建構一個關鍵的部隊陣戰力強化防衛的韌性提升後備戰力以及有效應對灰色地帶行動這四個面向的話我們會整體來規劃還有根據整個國家整體的財力"},{"start":1053.174,"end":1060.233,"text":"真來快速的能夠就快速獲得的項目納入我們優先籌購的標的的話盡量來努力"},{"start":1060.88,"end":1089.676,"text":"盡快達成GDP百分之三以上的目標我們才能向世界展現好 那是部長的說辭如果簡單原因在客觀的條件下是不允許的在客觀的條件下是不允許的我另外我再請問一下院長待會部長你也回答一下知不知道國慶目前面臨最嚴重的問題是什麼以下國慶現在正在面臨的嚴重的問題是一人力的缺乏二"},{"start":1091.917,"end":1107.125,"text":"這個邊縣比不足第三賠錢提前退伍年輕人從今意願低即時要加薪從今意願的人還是很少讓這個我們去看看"},{"start":1108.257,"end":1134.274,"text":"如果清了根本沒有人願意簽自願意或申請自願的大家都知道所以我們國防支出在GDP的3%有錢買武器卻沒有人去使用武器這就是我們現在的問題所在剛剛我一直提出比例原則那如果今天我們的國力"},{"start":1135.515,"end":1142.031,"text":"人力今天的比現實如果是超乎標準的話"},{"start":1142.847,"end":1169.437,"text":"那提高我們的戰備戰力也應該過去裡面我們很多的這一些國軍士官兵都願意為國家奉獻為國家犧牲可是後面他的保障是什麼所以變成現在的意願很多年輕人不想打債也不想加入國軍行列如果在我們這個年代裡面只要是政府國家需要我們的我們絕對是義務"},{"start":1171.393,"end":1193.892,"text":"絕對是服從一定是單兵為國家效力這就是現在的時空背景不一樣那你們現在要提高這一些的武器那請問我們的筆線筆這個編制的筆線筆不足的情況所以你們現在要討論的是如何加強我們的國力"},{"start":1195.274,"end":1212.025,"text":"讓我們的人力增加讓我們這一些木兵制要達到標準這才是你們現在所要做的事情部長也要院長回答一下委員的指教我們虛心接受就是說"},{"start":1213.703,"end":1243.412,"text":"我們在招募的這個成效方面還有留營的成效上面還有以及減少這個提前退伍這個人數上面我們都應該要加以努力那有關待遇的調整的部分這邊特別跟委員提出報告就是說我們也經過多次的討論事實上總統就任之後就馬上要求我們在這方面做研議然後我們現在也研議了之後也跟行政院這個部分"},{"start":1244.111,"end":1264.453,"text":"開始做討論那已經有了初步的共識我們希望這個待遇提升的這個方案能夠盡早的確定之後然後來讓這個基層的官兵有感那我第二點我跟委員報告我們從就我們在這方面的努力上面來看的話"},{"start":1265.801,"end":1293.653,"text":"今年來看就今年來看去年的話已經有一些初步的生效以主動申請提前退伍人數來看的話113年已經比112年減少了325個人然後113年流盈率就是說期滿在續扶的這個流盈率比前一年增加了3.5個百分點已經來到了82%所以我們現在當然要針對的是主戰部隊就是說戰鬥部隊的這一個"},{"start":1295.219,"end":1304.95,"text":"邊線比確實比較低我們會在這個部分來提高他們的待遇邊線比不足 這要加強第二個 木槟寺的"},{"start":1305.492,"end":1330.24,"text":"募兵制的招兵你們更要加強現在很多的意願不高所以你們把國軍的待遇的制度麻煩你們提升這是一個現在要當兵或者要有意願者要加入國軍行列的時候你們應該要編能夠符合他們的需求而不是"},{"start":1331.339,"end":1358.273,"text":"不是我們亂編現在他們的期待因為物價指數又上漲那如何我當兵了我沒有保障我誰願意去沒有誘因嘛所以院長你的看法呢提高國軍的待遇是總統上任以來就交代的事情剛剛部長已經交代這個程序已經在院裡面在審議當中我們會進行討論讓他上路而且增加待遇"},{"start":1359.034,"end":1365.661,"text":"為的就是要充足國軍的兵源讓我們有足夠的能力再來就充實 精實他的整個訓練的過程"},{"start":1367.332,"end":1395.609,"text":"我們從過去的金石到現在的不推生誕生整整我們都不是養一隻龐大的軍隊而是養一隻可用的軍隊那這個都是在提升國防力量的一環提升國防力量不單只是買武器人員的提升增加都是一環所以如果委員支持我們將來送出這樣的最佳預算請委員跟我們一樣站在國家基本之所需求提升國防力量從人到裝備到武器這整個我們一併的做"},{"start":1396.977,"end":1412.47,"text":"多年性的一個考量我們從客觀的角度是不允許從另外一個角度提高國金的戰備國力這是我們現在政府要加強的那當然"},{"start":1413.376,"end":1434.802,"text":"比線比人數的問題這是最缺乏目前來講所以我們有沒有提高到3%第二個我們要因應美國要求這樣的一個政策來講國人絕對不諒解很多對政府現在的做法要特別預算的編制然後追加"},{"start":1436.582,"end":1444.406,"text":"這樣國人對執政非常的不諒解也沒有辦法把我們的財政作用在我們的戰備裡面"},{"start":1447.613,"end":1471.269,"text":"應該要民生法案要非常重要因為美國現在川普已經就任了他威脅到整個國際的這樣的一個要求不管在從經濟面我們現在賴總統已經就任到現在我們應該從民生法案、經濟法案、交通、觀光應該從這樣的角度裡面來著力"},{"start":1472.41,"end":1498.63,"text":"這才是一個真正 而不是現在要搞大罷免造成民不聊生造成我們現在產生一個對立為什麼會這樣子 請問所以我現在必須要講的我跟委員簡單說我想所有的經濟環境都要站在一個前提之上就是這個區域是一個和平穩定的一個區域我們是希望在維持這個印太的和平穩定"},{"start":1499.811,"end":1523.919,"text":"這個是美國所要看到全世界要看到我們台灣也要看到的這個都是大家的一個共同我們要因應印太的角度我們也要適量適量而為啊不是美國今天提出來在選舉的過程就提出說我們要我們要繳保護費要提高到百分之三到百分之十這個就是我們今天要對國人而所交代不是我們現在"},{"start":1525.519,"end":1535.072,"text":"我們不是現在在找一些理由來面對我們當然是衡量我們自己的財政能力財政能力 國防需求比方說現在中方的國防預算是台灣的16.5倍啊"},{"start":1542.262,"end":1559.219,"text":"在客觀上都不允許的情況我們也要傾聽民意的心聲不是政府說了就算我們要跟民主國家共同維持印代的和平穩定跟安全這個責任大家應該要分擔我們也要有自己的決心因為現在中共的兵"},{"start":1559.879,"end":1580.108,"text":"國防預算是我們的16.5倍他逐年增加都在7%以上那這個是事實那我們不是跟他做軍備競賽也沒有辦法跟他做競賽我們只是在我們的財政能力上面依照國防所需要 復取印太地區和平穩定跟世界我們的有門國家共同負擔這個責任而已 否則"},{"start":1581.068,"end":1604.036,"text":"世界這個極權國家的武力的威脅會一直存在甚至會升高如果我們夠強我們才有和平可言好了反正我是跟你講說我們不要變成台灣變成烏克蘭這個以下是做一個結論另外我特別部長請回另外"},{"start":1606.598,"end":1629.792,"text":"這個修訂老人福利法重要性的強調65歲以上那當然這次我在在進行期間然後我也是尊重我們65歲以上是不是來朝向國家養原因是什麼他從年輕對國家的奉獻對國家的這個"},{"start":1634.707,"end":1660.795,"text":"這個努力老人呢現在我們的長照當然我們很多這些我們的長照福利政策在全國裡面現在的文件站嚴重的文件站現在整個來講總共510個文件站對老人的敬重跟照顧當然是應該的可是他們在年輕的時候他們曾經在每一個職場裡面奉獻給社會國家"},{"start":1662.875,"end":1683.48,"text":"老了我們應該是不是擬定一個老人福利政策那是不是朝向六十五歲以上老人有國家養根據財團法人國家衛生研究院在一百零五年到一百零六年原住民族人口及健康統計年報"},{"start":1687.781,"end":1703.187,"text":"從109年5月版105年男性原住民族平均餘命只有67.5%女性只有76.4%分別比一般男性跟女性低於9.3歲及7.0歲"},{"start":1709.591,"end":1734.903,"text":"另外一次在年期相關的年薪制度例如國民年薪從第53條公務人員退休之前服卸法第17條公立學校教師退休之前服卸條例第18條農民退休除夕條例第15條"},{"start":1736.601,"end":1762.327,"text":"皆已經規定原住民以五十五歲即可退休請領相關年金或可支領的相關的儲金那請問院長內政部及原民會主委老人福利法第二條條文本法所稱老人是指六十五歲以上的國民那是否同意修訂老人福利法第二條條文將五十五歲"},{"start":1763.107,"end":1776.852,"text":"以上的原住民納入符合公平正義因應全球的老化內政部最新的統計截至2024年8月底我國65歲以上的人口將近442萬"},{"start":1779.194,"end":1786.704,"text":"那占全體人口的18.9%那依國家發展委員會推估2025年65歲以上將突破20%代表2025年"},{"start":1794.034,"end":1812.984,"text":"台灣將正式跨入世界衛生組織定義的超年齡的一個社會所以成為全球人口最老化快速的國家之一所以台灣社會將面臨前所未有的四大挑戰包含第一"},{"start":1814.065,"end":1825.738,"text":"中高年齡就業歧視第二 基礎環境不友善國家醫療資源不足 孤獨等成為社會必須正式的緣故"},{"start":1850.505,"end":1851.065,"text":"好 謝謝黃衡委員"},{"start":1855.728,"end":1865.259,"text":"好的麻烦行政院把黄人委员的要求的书面报告送黄委员研究室谢谢谢谢卓院长相关部会所长贝奇谢谢黄人委员的咨询"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":341,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（16時20分）有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["黃委員仁：謝謝主席。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員仁：好。現在弄得沸沸揚揚，我想請教一下，針對明天總預算以及財劃法覆議案的朝野協商，院長對於總預算及財劃法提交覆議的態度為何及未來會採取什麼樣的立場，你來說明一下，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：總預算的部分跟委員報告，我們有列舉了12項窒礙難行，大的分項來看，第一個就是歲出刪減數的總數，第一次送到行政院來沒有一個加總的數字，這是以前所沒有的，其中刪減數沒有正式的宣讀出來，這個將來在紀錄形成上會有所爭議；另外就是要求行政院自行通案刪減的部分，用3%計算有939億，其中有636億到現在還找不出刪減的項目、金額在哪裡，叫行政院自己來刪636億，我想這個是相當為難的一件事情；另外還有……"],["黃委員仁：我想跨世代到現在，在過去的執政，行政院都非常尊重立法院所提出的各議案……"],["卓院長榮泰：現在也是。"],["黃委員仁：然後經三讀通過；在你們執政的時候，只要是我們，不管是在野或是其他友黨共同經過三讀通過，也是合法的程序，為何你們處處都要提出覆議案或者是違憲？百姓不解，很多非常善良的百姓非常不解！另外，如果總預算及財劃法覆議案未通過，實際上及詳細會影響哪些部會和哪些政務，請院長明確的說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：我先跟委員報告，我提出過4點，若不是對憲政的秩序有破壞、若不是影響到人民的權利、若不是讓行政院在執行預算上面窒礙難行、若不是沒有經過充分的討論跟民主的表決，行政院是不會輕易提出。我們想過去這幾件大概……"],["黃委員仁：我想都已經經過了朝野協商這個程序來跟行政院討論財劃法，包含選罷法及總預算都有經過程序來做協商討論，你總是會提到窒礙難行，然後又提出違憲或者是覆議，這就是一個執政單位的胸襟……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是憲法的規定。"],["黃委員仁：到底能不能以百姓的福祉為主要，今天我們是監督我們的總預算，包含有不公不義的我們都在這個地方表決，這是非常清楚的，但行政院老是用這樣的一個方案，窒礙難行又提出覆議，這造成了很多國人……或是產生在野與執政黨的對立，這對百姓來講真的是不好的！"],["卓院長榮泰：一句話就好，大院的委員職權行使法經過釋憲確實有違憲之處，所以這個程序是讓大家能夠再回到憲法的秩序，現在緊接而來的包括選罷法等等都還在這個程序當中，這個都還沒有經過裁定下來，所以真的是有這些……"],["黃委員仁：以過去這個案例來講，不會常態性的……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，這幾件就是這個樣子啊。"],["黃委員仁：有個案，但是不會是常態性，所以在民主的程序我們都已經走過了。院長，我是中華民國的阿美族、在臺灣，我想我們對人都是善待，針對福國利民的當然我們是以誠訴說，好不好？你思考，很多委員都已經提到這個方案，百姓都已經膠著在那個地方，為什麼今天財劃法是不能執行的？今天有很多浮編，我們就是要監督，這是我們的責任。"],["卓院長榮泰：財劃法的水平分配是有問題的。"],["黃委員仁：我講到這個就好了，希望你能夠再思考。"],["卓院長榮泰：中央政府總預算，總統的國務機要費全部被刪除，這個是鐵的事實。2,000萬被刪除、1,000萬被凍結，這個是鐵的事實，讓總統在國務機要費上面沒有辦法執行；監察院百分之百被刪減和凍結。"],["黃委員仁：不管是刪減、凍結，我們在各個委員會裡面都有相互尊重，而且都有一些解凍的方式……"],["卓院長榮泰：今天已經3月初了，這3個月以來總統的國務機要費是沒有辦法動的；監察院是百分之百被刪減和凍結，但也是沒有辦法動的，這個是鐵的事實。"],["黃委員仁：反正現在你們執政黨說了就算了。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是事實。就不說行政院，行政院也是很多。"],["黃委員仁：沒有尊重到民意基礎，我們就是民意，代表了民意訴說，政府能夠按照民意、尊重民意……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以覆議是希望民意重新審視。"],["黃委員仁：第二個議題，現在我講國防議題，你們部會……"],["主席：請國防部部長備詢。"],["黃委員仁：有關於賴清德打算要提特別預算，將國防支出提高到GDP的3%，賴總統在2月14日召開國安會議，並在會議後表示將優先編製特別預算，讓國防預算達到GDP的3%以上的目標。院長，政府將提出國防採購的特別預算，這件事已經確定了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：在總統主持國安高層會議之後，基於國家需要，我們要強化自己的國防力量，我們還有很多先進的武器和後續的裝備，還有人員的整備，都必須要全面提升，如果用長年的公務預算，在執行上顯然是困難的，顯然是沒有辦法一次做整套的預算規劃。所以未來我們已經朝向要請求立法院也能夠一起支持……"],["黃委員仁：院長回答是嘛？是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們希望大院也能支持，我們一起編訂，提……"],["黃委員仁：好，待會兒我提出幾項特別預算編列的規定，我必須要再讓國人了解，也要跟院長了解，這樣一個編列特別預算的舉動，是不是政府向川普政府展現了我們致力於對抗中共威脅的決心？你剛剛已經回答是，所以賴總統提出的這個特別預算，實際上是一種向美國的表態，目的是在回應川普於美國總統大選期間指責我國國防支出不足，並要求我國應該把經費提高到GDP的10%的訴求，也是在回應川普要求臺灣要支付防衛的保護費。院長，我國編列特別預算的條件是什麼？以下我要讓你知道，如果你現在可以回答，你也可以馬上回答我。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們為了國家重大政事的支出之需要，可以用歲計賸餘或舉債的方式編列特別預算。"],["黃委員仁：剛剛我講的，我國編列特別預算的要件是什麼？如果你不回答我，現在我根據預算法第八十三條，特別預算的提出要件必須是什麼？第一個，國防緊急設施或戰爭；第二，國家經濟重大變故；第三，重大災變；第四，不定期或數年一次之重大政事。請問一下院長，這樣的要件當中，有沒有任何一項是要滿足外國政府的需求？沒有一項！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有依照委員說的理由啊！"],["黃委員仁：我國編列預算是我們政府自己的事，國防支出是否一定要達到GDP的3%，要看國家的實際財政狀況和需求，而不是看美國的需求，中華民國是一個獨立自主的國家，不是美國的附庸國，請民進黨政府要搞清楚國家的立場。剛剛那四點我都已經提出來了，第一是國防緊急設施或戰爭，第二是國家經濟重大變故，第三是重大災變，第四是不定期或數年一次之重大政事，這在預算法第八十三條有關提出特別預算的規定講得非常清楚。","其次，現在有很多委員提出士官兵志願役勤務加給從現在每個月1萬提高到3萬，未來提高他們的薪資，以保障軍人的待遇。現在國防預算要提高到GDP的3%，提升國軍戰力和軍備我絕對支持，可是浮編、亂編或者是要提高到GDP的3%，對我們國家的財政支出絕對會有影響。如果我們的募兵制度到現在都沒有達標，那我們要如何在比例原則當中拉近？如果國防預算占GDP的3%，那麼國軍的戰力呢？你說！"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告一下，根據預算法第八十三條第四款，剛剛您有唸到的，就是如果有「數年一次之重大政事」，可以在年度總預算外提出特別預算。因為如果達到GDP的3%都放在年度總預算內，有可能會排擠到其他的……"],["黃委員仁：好，部長，你回答得非常好，但是現在我要告訴你，我國目前的狀態是什麼？是在戰爭？還是準戰爭？還是在動亂？還是在承平的時期？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第四款並沒有這樣的要件，但是搭配下一條來看的話，如果是屬於緊急狀態之下，甚至可以因應情勢之緊急需要，先行支付一部分；而這並沒有包括前條第四款。所以特別預算的編列如果是屬於數年一次之重大政事，這個部分有特別需要的話，就可以編列特別預算。所以我們包括F-16V也是特別預算，包括海空戰力提升也是提出特別預算，這個都是有前例的。"],["黃委員仁：國軍戰備的提升我們沒意見，我絕對支持，可是現在不是在戰爭中或是準戰爭，而且也不是在動亂中。另外就是，現在我們是在承平的時期裡面……"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，剛剛說的第四款就沒有這樣的要件、要求啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不以這個為前提啦！"],["顧部長立雄：不以這個為前提。所以，可不可以對到這個……"],["黃委員仁：現在我要講的是比例原則，好不好？我們現在的募兵政策沒有達標，要如何因應提高戰備、戰力？這就是一個比例原則嘛！所以我們要讓國人知道，不是要提高戰備，卻沒有阿兵哥、沒有官士兵啊！","所以我再請教一下院長，根據斯德哥爾摩國際和平研究所在2023年世界軍事支出趨勢報告中提出的，2023年軍事支出占GDP比例超過3%的國家有美國3.4%、俄國5.9%、沙烏地阿拉伯7.1%、烏克蘭37%、波蘭3.8%、以色列5.3%、阿爾及利亞8.2%、科威特4.9%、希臘3.2%、阿曼5.4%，全球平均的國防戰備支出是占GDP的2.3%，其中超過5%的國家幾乎都是正在戰爭當中或處在動亂的國家，連美國在全世界駐軍跟打仗，他的經費支出也只不過是GDP的3.4%，那請教一下，這是事實啊！媒體都這樣報導……"],["卓院長榮泰：可能需要查一下中華人民共和國。"],["黃委員仁：我現在不講中華人民共和國，我們現在講的是全球。"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！它也是全球的一個國家。"],["黃委員仁：如果講中共，這樣的話等一下又被你們抹紅、抹黑，今天我們講全球，我們根據斯德哥爾摩國際和平研究所報導出來的……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以它沒有調查中國嗎？"],["黃委員仁：沒有寫啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：有沒有？"],["黃委員仁：沒有寫。"],["卓院長榮泰：它沒有寫中國？那我們再查一下中國。"],["黃委員仁：所以在整個國際裡面來講，我們提高到3%，如果按照平均值的2.3%來看，應該是符合在全球裡面國防支出的占比，所以部長，你認為我們一定要提高到3%嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，就我了解，中國年度的國防預算支出，因為它不是很透明，所以不是很清楚，估算應該在4,000億美金左右這樣子的一個規模，再加上中國始終不放棄武力犯臺，我們在面對敵情日益嚴峻的一個年代，我們要以民主同盟的概念來加強自我防衛的能力跟決心，這是必要的一個展現。如果我們不能夠提升自我防衛能力的話，沒有辦法傳遞出這樣的一個訊息的話，國際不會伸出援手的，所以我們要展現這樣的自我防衛能力跟決心。當然GDP3%這樣的一個目標，如果說我們依照實際防衛的需求，快速的能夠獲得我們所需要的四大面向，我們一再強調，就是建構一個關鍵的不對稱戰力、強化防衛的韌性、提升後備戰力以及有效應對灰色地帶行動這四個面向的話，我們會整體來規劃，還有根據整個國家的整體財力，我們就能夠快速獲得的項目，納入我們優先籌獲的標的的話，盡量來努力，盡快達成GDP3%以上的目標，我們才能向世界展現一個正面的訊息。"],["黃委員仁：好，那是部長的說詞，如果簡單講原因，在客觀的條件下是不允許的。","另外，我再請問一下院長，待會兒部長你也回答一下，知不知道國軍目前面臨最嚴重的問題是什麼？國軍現在真正面臨最嚴重的問題是，一、人力的缺乏；二、編現比不足；第三，賠錢提前退伍，年輕人從軍意願低，即使要加薪，有從軍意願的人還是很少。這個我們去看看，青鳥根本沒有人願意簽自願役或申請自願的，大家都知道啊！所以我們國防支出占GDP的3%，有錢買武器，卻沒有人去使用武器，這就是我們現在的問題所在。","剛剛我一直提出比例原則，如果今天我們的國力、人力，今天的編現比如果是超乎標準的話，那提高我們的戰備、戰力也應該。過去我們很多的國軍士官兵都願意為國家奉獻、為國家犧牲，可是後面他的保障是什麼？所以變成現在的意願……很多年輕人不想打仗，也不想加入國軍行列，如果在我們這個年代裡面，只要是政府、國家需要我們的，我們絕對是義務、絕對是服從，一定是當兵為國家效力，這就是現在的時空背景不一樣。你們要提升這一些武器，而我們在編現比不足的情況，要討論的是如何加強我們的國力，讓我們的人力增加，讓我們的募兵制要達到標準，這才是你們現在所要做的事情！部長，你來回答一下。"],["顧部長立雄：我們虛心接受委員的指教，就是我們在招募的成效上，還有留營的成效上，以及減少要求提前退伍的人數上，都應該要加以努力。有關待遇調整的部分，特別跟委員提出報告，我們經過多次討論，事實上，總統就任之後就馬上要求我們在這方面研議，我們研議了之後，現在也跟行政院就這個部分開始討論，已經有了初步的共識，我們希望待遇提升的這個方案能夠儘早確定，讓基層的官兵有感。","第二點、我跟委員報告我們在這方面的努力，就今年來看去年，已經有一些初步的成效。以主動申請提前退伍人數來看的話，113年已經比112年減少了325個人，然後113年留營率，就是期滿再續服的留營率比前一年增加了3.5個百分點，已經來到了82%，所以我們現在當然要針對的是主戰部隊，就是戰鬥部隊這個部分的編現比確實比較低，我們會在這個部分來提高他們的待遇，希望……"],["黃委員仁：編現比不足要加強。第二個、募兵制的招兵，你們更要加強，現在很多人意願不高，所以麻煩你們把國軍的待遇制度提升，這是一個。當有人要當兵或者有意願者要加入國軍行列的時候，你們應該要編且能夠符合他們的需求，而不是亂編，現在他們的期待……因為物價指數又上漲，當兵卻沒有保障，誰願意去啊？沒有誘因嘛！院長，你的看法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：提高國軍的待遇是總統上任以來就交代的事情，剛剛部長已經交代，這個程序已經在院裡面審議當中，我們會進行討論，讓它上路，而且增加待遇為的就是要充足國軍的兵源，讓我們有足夠的人力。再來就是精實整個訓練的過程，我們從過去的精實到現在的不對稱戰爭等等，我們都不是要養一支龐大的軍隊，而是養一支可用的軍隊，這都是提升國防力量的一環。提升國防力量不單只是買武器，人員的提升、增加都是一環，如果委員支持，我們將來送出追加預算，請委員跟我們一樣站在國家基本之所需，提升國防力量，從人到裝備、到武器，整個一併做多年性的考量。"],["黃委員仁：我們從客觀的角度是不允許，從另外一個角度，提高國軍的戰備國力是政府現在要加強的。目前來講，編現比人數缺乏是最大的問題，所以我們有沒有要提高到3%？第二個、以我們要因應美國要求這樣的政策來講，國人絕對不諒解。對政府現在的作法，即要追加、編列特別預算，讓很多國人對執政黨非常不諒解，我們也沒有辦法把財政都用在戰備上，而是認為民生法案非常重要。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當然會衡量。"],["黃委員仁：因為川普已經就任了，他的要求威脅到整個國際，不管從經濟面……賴總統就任到現在，應該從民生法案、經濟法案、交通、觀光這樣的角度來著力，這才是一個真正……而不是現在要搞大罷免，造成民不聊生、造成我們現在產生一個對立，請問為什麼會這樣子？所以我現在必須要講……"],["顧部長立雄：我跟委員簡單說明，我想所有的經濟繁榮都要站在一個前提之上，就是這個區域是一個和平穩定的區域，我們是希望維持印太的和平穩定，這個是美國所要看到、全世界要看到，我們臺灣也要看到的，這個都是大家共同的……"],["黃委員仁：我們要因應印太的角度，我們也要適量而為……"],["顧部長立雄：對，那我們……"],["黃委員仁：不是美國今天在選舉的過程中提出說我們要繳保護費、要提高到3%到10%，這個就是我們今天要對國人有所交代……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們當然是衡量……"],["黃委員仁：而不是現在在找一些理由來面對……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有，我們當然是衡量我們自己的財政能力、國防需求……"],["黃委員仁：好，院長，你既然都已經這樣講了，我們適量而為……"],["卓院長榮泰：比方現在中共的國防預算是臺灣的16.5倍……"],["黃委員仁：國軍的戰力、戰備的支出在客觀上都不允許的情況，我們也要傾聽民意的心聲。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要跟……"],["黃委員仁：不是政府說了就算。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要跟民主國家共同維持印太的和平、穩定跟安全，這個責任大家應該要分擔，我們也要有自己的決心，因為現在中共的國防預算是我們的16.5倍，它逐年增加，都在7%以上，這個是事實，我們不是跟他做軍備競賽，也沒有辦法跟他做競賽，我們只是在我們的財政能力上面依照國防所需要，負起印太地區和平穩定，跟世界、我們的友盟國家共同負擔這個責任而已，否則世界上集權國家武力的威脅會一直存在，甚至會升高，如果我們夠強，我們才有和平可言。"],["黃委員仁：好啦，反正我是跟你講說我們臺灣不要變成烏克蘭，以下做一個結論，部長請回。","另外，有關修訂老人福利法重要性的強調，有關65歲以上，當然這一次我在競選期間，我也是尊重65歲以上是不是來朝向國家養？原因是什麼？他從年輕對國家的奉獻、對國家的努力，現在我們的長照當然還有很多長照福利政策在全國裡面，現在原住民的文健站整個來講總共有510個文健站，對老人的敬重跟照顧當然是應該的，可是他們在年輕的時候曾經在每一個職場裡面奉獻給社會國家，而老了，我們是不是應該擬定一個老人福利政策？是不是朝向65歲以上老人由國家養？根據財團法人國家衛生研究院105年到106年原住民族人口及健康統計年報，從109年5月版來看，105年男性原住民族的平均餘命只有67.5歲，女性只有76.4歲，分別比一般男性、女性低了9.3歲及7.0歲。","另外是相關的年金制度，例如國民年金法第五十三條，公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第十七條、公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第十八條、農民退休儲金條例第十五條，現在已經規定原住民於55歲即可退休，請領相關年金或可支領相關儲金。請問院長、內政部及原民會主委，老人福利法第二條條文規定，本法所稱老人是指65歲以上的國民，是否同意修訂老人福利法第二條條文，將55歲以上的原住民納入，以符合公平正義？","因應全球的老化，根據內政部最新的統計，截至2024年8月底，我國65歲以上人口將近442萬，占全體人口18.9%，依國家發展委員會推估，2025年65歲以上人口將突破20%，代表2025年臺灣將正式跨入世界衛生組織定義的超高齡社會，成為全球人口老化最快速的國家之一，所以臺灣社會將面臨前所未有的四大挑戰，包含第一、中高齡就業歧視，第二、居住環境不友善，以及國家醫療資源不足、孤獨死等等，成為社會必須正視的問題，所以建請政府因應超高齡社會的需求。你會老、我也會老，完善超高齡社會政策、為自己鋪路，因此本席在這個地方提出65歲以上是不是能夠由國家養？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的指教，我們在政策上研究看看，我們現在進行的是……"],["黃委員仁：我還沒有問完的，到時候以書面報告回答我好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃仁委員，麻煩行政院將黃仁委員所要求的書面報告送黃委員研究室，謝謝。","謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢，謝謝黃仁委員的質詢，接下來請登記第16號何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃捷","柯志恩","張啓楷","賴惠員","林德福","林憶君","莊瑞雄","黃仁","何欣純","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":31,"meetingDate":["2025-03-04"],"gazette_id":"1142402","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142402_00002","1142402_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1142402_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}