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1 2 3"},{"start":161.516,"end":161.536,"text":"啊喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂"},{"start":2094.234,"end":2119.253,"text":"各黨團的代表副總召、柯總召、黃總召還有各位我們列席的官員還有各位黨團的工作夥伴各位新聞界的好朋友那我們今天的草野協商就正式開始等一下還有幾位黨團幹部不同政黨的幹部都在路上我們就邊開會邊等今天草野協商之前"},{"start":2120.919,"end":2149.586,"text":"今天草野協商之前我特別拜託所有的黨團幹部我們有幾項宣告要請大家我們一起來盡量來遵守我語重心長連續幾次草野協商大家都曉得氣氛不是很融洽事實上我想低一點時間"},{"start":2151.482,"end":2176.55,"text":"我們今後所有草與協商發言我們會計時一次發言五分鐘為限五分鐘那發言完畢之後其他黨團幹部要發言的時候主席會裁決請五分鐘到時間就自動停止那如果要再發言的話可以徵求二次發言這是第一個發言時間請問各位黨團幹部同意不同意"},{"start":2178.584,"end":2198.674,"text":"沒有我一個一個來,因為好多,可以嗎?有一些五分鐘,好不好?沒有沒有,我們先暫時這樣子,我們試試看。因為這麼久來齁,草委協商沒有發言時間限制以及次數限制,議事規則也說很清楚,假如沒有辦法說明清楚,因為只有發言一次。"},{"start":2199.708,"end":2222.313,"text":"委員會登記其他的草原協商以及在討論法案的時候都沒有時間和次數限制所以主席要斟酌一下這是要大家如果把話講清楚不是說這麼久來草原協商你以為不是今天才開始我認為主席這個人要斟酌一下謝謝"},{"start":2226.533,"end":2253.726,"text":"柯總召的提醒,但是我想對發言的時間、發言的內容,我們依序一點一滴,我的觀察、我的憂心,還有大家愚情的反應,我們試試看,我們第一次發言五分鐘,時間到了暫停,等其他人發言,二次發言再舉手,我覺得用這種方式的話,可能可以讓會議進行的效率會提高一點,而且也讓劍拔弩張的氛圍可以降低一點,好不好,這我們試試看。委員長"},{"start":2256.48,"end":2259.882,"text":"你這才是五分鐘,你是否有限制?"},{"start":2270.49,"end":2285.321,"text":"目前暫時還沒有,我們先試辦,我們試試看嘛,將來修正再修正嘛沒有試試先試,大家一共說話,到底要講清楚就好我們先試試看嘛,很多事情要重新建立嘛,否則大家因為要試試看,試試看,我講一下"},{"start":2288.183,"end":2313.699,"text":"因為要試試看,所以大家到底要講清楚嘛。這個五分鐘以後,來馬上輪下去,然後沒有次數限制,這個我們試試看是倒是可以。因為過去也沒有院長會提出這個。那現在的議事處,他給你弄很多遊戲規則。不知道上禮拜我們在草原協商幾個結議案,那根本協商完畢以後,沒有人簽字。"},{"start":2316.221,"end":2317.943,"text":"關於協商MV一定是院長入門協商決議"},{"start":2336.863,"end":2360.522,"text":"委員長簽了,然後交給大家簽,要由不簽跑掉,再來去拜託,再來協商。所以這個是一個民主程序的進行。我們不希望就是說,一是非常了解遊戲規則,中央民主黨也非常了解遊戲規則,總會跟我們講清楚,然後一協商完畢又跑掉。過去中央協商是無效的。"},{"start":2362.263,"end":2387.311,"text":"常委已經寫很清楚,一定要簽名,沒有簽那就在協商有什麼問題去解決,大部分都能夠解決,其實啊,都能夠解決的。所以這個與議事有何齊,尤其我們會局開始大家對立法院有所憂心嘛。那不管怎麼樣,我在這裡一直講說,我們碰到、面對很多法輪功委是違法一線的法案。"},{"start":2388.992,"end":2408.114,"text":"這張當來當然大家都會攻防嘛,那我看到在這個說法這個委員會這個房間裡面在攻防的時候,國民黨主席就是領要過去,那法民黨主席要三回五次嘛我建議我們就不要再遇到我先把這個講完就是說我們今天很重要就是"},{"start":2409.255,"end":2435.01,"text":"不管怎麼樣,立法院要進行民主程序,這很重要。沒有程序正義,就沒有實際正義。假如立法院這樣,像涉議中有些遊戲規則,把植物鹼化採取。立法院,那就是還是國會都是暴力。這個是民主會崩盤的。好不好?好,謝謝柯總周三爺的提醒。我們第一個如果各位黨團沒有意見的話,我們就試試看。請副總統。"},{"start":2438.526,"end":2459.673,"text":"新的民意在這個會期我們正式展開我想國務院長所帶領的立法院是要讓國人耳目一新的一個國會過去漫無目的如同菜市場一般的雜亂我想不再是現在人民的期待"},{"start":2460.959,"end":2488.586,"text":"所以我今天真的是非常高興聽到韓院長講我們未來這個要制度化的建立因為最主要我們不斷聽到有一種聲音當在這個會議室要散會動議的時候因為太多的人身攻擊要散會動議的時候所以一直在強調委員會中心主義既然是委員會中心主義"},{"start":2490.216,"end":2519.999,"text":"一個民主國家那既然在委員會已經討論過了那已經到了院長召集協商的這個區塊裡面我們制度真的要建立我們制度真的要建立我們不能啊損耗了這個什麼24小時48小時今天中華民國不是只有一個案子兩個案子三個案子要來協商一個制度的建立是真的是不容易我覺得院長要大破大立啦"},{"start":2521.377,"end":2549.909,"text":"因為在委員會的發言本來就有主席才是一次發言幾分鐘就這樣大家就一次發言巡打等等接著下來到院會的時候不管是在質詢這個專案報告還是院會的部會首長院長的質詢都有15分鐘或30分鐘的限制但一個會期就那一次"},{"start":2551.624,"end":2578.774,"text":"所以今天如果說在這裡其實我覺得今天跟我所思考的距離已經有一點差距了因為這個五分鐘我想這個是院長比較宏觀啦五分鐘 好得再發言一次我想很多其實除非表達能力有問題不然五分鐘之內已經講得很清楚了大家也都 人民都聽得懂了"},{"start":2579.654,"end":2580.014,"text":"我需要先舉手 請發言"},{"start":2604.413,"end":2623.203,"text":"謝謝主席,我也認為如果能夠在協商的過程透過比較好的意識管控也就是大家彼此能夠維持對話的和諧,我當然樂見但是新的民意不能凌駕了國會的民主運作的原則委員會有委員會的規則"},{"start":2628.013,"end":2647.298,"text":"協商有協商大家對話的方式新的民意更不能凌駕憲法所以不是嚴閉稱新民意就可以把過去立法院數十年來運作的慣例把它變成惡例所以我是認為如果要約束大家"},{"start":2649.141,"end":2665.743,"text":"一次發言幾分鐘這個我可以大家就盡量來約束但是次數的部分我認為是不宜限制的剛剛副昆齊總召說到委員會中心主義太好了我終於從副總召的嘴巴裡聽到委員會中心主義七個字"},{"start":2666.784,"end":2687.87,"text":"但這七個字不是拿來嘴巴空講,是要實踐的。剛副總召說,因為有了委員會中心主義,所以在委員會充分討論,在協商就不用再多花時間,所以要限制協商發言的次數跟時間,這我萬萬不能同意啊。"},{"start":2688.891,"end":2704.532,"text":"如果委員會中心主義有被履行那我大可接受這也是過去的好經驗委員會充分討論只留下部分爭議未解的部分送到協商來解決這個是如常運作的立法院"},{"start":2705.473,"end":2729.354,"text":"但是現在的立法院委員會中心主義七個字蕩然無存我想請副總召我如果有說錯副總召可以指正我今天要協商的三個議案委員會中心主義在哪裡花東快速公路建設特別條例耗資兩千五百億交通委員會只省了三分鐘"},{"start":2731.104,"end":2755.751,"text":"第二個案子:「國道東延花東花蓮建設特別條例草案。」特別預算八千億交通委員會只花了一分五十秒第三個案:「環島高鐵恩兆。」現在還算不出來到底要花多少名值名高交通委員會只花六分鐘換言之今天要審的三大法案"},{"start":2757.27,"end":2783.502,"text":"委員會分三天開會total的討論時間只有10分50秒這是什麼委員會中心主義所以今天在協商我們是在補進度我必須很遺憾的說我們是在彌補委員會中心主義被踐踏的那幾次會議我們只好不得已到協商再來談那是因為委員會中心主義被國民黨"},{"start":2785.641,"end":2805.892,"text":"壓政之下予以踐踏所以回到主題就是照理講我舉個例子院長昨天內政委員會通過了地方民代知己條例我們提升了村里長的年終慰問金我們提升了地方民代的助理二十四年未調的薪水這是一個好的朝野就努力在內政委員會"},{"start":2808.627,"end":2834.664,"text":"針對八個條文討論了十個小時那是委員會中心主義八個條文討論了十個小時所以想試問今天三個法案有幾個條文我們是不是真的能夠來堅守國會議員監督的職責所以如果以這個標準一個委員在協商三長的代表一次五分鐘一個人發言五十次都不嫌多啊"},{"start":2835.782,"end":2862.695,"text":"因為委員會中心主義被踐踏三大議案交通委員會只花了十分五十秒所以我必須在這裡要積極地爭取這是早起剛、早不來我們要開幾條的民脂民膏難道不值得好好討論嗎所以如果以過去的經驗昨天內政委員會八個條文討論十個小時那今天每一個委員可以發言五十次都不嫌多謝謝"},{"start":2865.137,"end":2889.472,"text":"接下來我們請按次序,我們請洪某凱署議長請謝謝院長,我想院長如果說我們沒有做一個正式的決議的話今天光再講下去也講不完今天民進黨的代表到目前為止我聽不出來說是不是真的想要針對這三個條例來去做好好討論"},{"start":2890.613,"end":2919.753,"text":"請容許我特別來說明 這三個條例不管是在經濟委員會 不管是在交通委員會都是有正式的詢答所有的委員登記並且跟我們相關部會的官員做過詢答之後來進入實質的主條討論但是沒有辦法在委員會裡面有確定一個版本所以說才會送來朝野協商但是在這個過程當中絕對不是民進黨代表剛剛所講的說幾分鐘五分鐘三分鐘"},{"start":2921.013,"end":2930.139,"text":"不要自我閹割了委員會的審查功能之後來這邊草野協商亂講我想這是第一個最大的謬論再者"},{"start":2932.421,"end":2956.316,"text":"今天朝野協商的重點在哪裡?朝野協商的重點是在於是說我們會議室裡面的人互相講話可是我覺得發覺說現在民進黨的代表把這裡當成是直播舞台、演講舞台從頭到尾眼神也沒有交集過這感覺就是一直在找攝影機我覺得岐起以為不可如果說真的要這樣子做的話我倒建議是"},{"start":2958.297,"end":2981.672,"text":"也不用五分鐘我倒建議是一個人發言三分鐘甚至兩分鐘大家把我們自己想要講的話概念講出來如果說一件事情擔任到立法委員了你想表達的訴求你都沒有辦法在三分鐘兩分鐘裡面完成的話那說實在的話你的語言表達要重練立法委員有辦法的就是把"},{"start":2984.101,"end":3003.658,"text":"時間給佔滿那既然如此如果說照我們剛剛民進黨的委員的一個發言來講的話那真的我建議 誠摯的建議為了我們的意識效率不是要表演給外界看我們真的希望是坐在這邊大家可以互相尊重彼此的時間我們把這個具體的精神給講出來那最後"},{"start":3005.336,"end":3033.724,"text":"很認真的部分是委員會審查完都有各自的版本既然今天要討論條例的話我也想請教行政部門有沒有相對應的版本民進黨團有沒有相對應的版本如果都沒有那我覺得今天來你們只是就是一昧的否定那這樣根本不叫實質的討論如果你們沒有版本來比如說我今天討論第一條你們沒有版本那我們請教要討論什麼東西"},{"start":3035.54,"end":3039.331,"text":"你只有yes or no嘛那這樣就根本不是想要實質的做討論啊"},{"start":3041.468,"end":3069.279,"text":"如果說今天進入到這個協商會場都沒有任何版本的時候那我合理的懷疑今天根本不是帶著誠意來討論根本不是有心為地方建設為台灣建設來發展來討論那這樣的協商還有意義嗎所以我覺得主席我們是不是經過黨團三個黨團都有發言過之後我們就直接進入按照您剛剛的遊戲規則我們就裁定時間那我們就直接進行今天的第一案討論以上 謝謝"},{"start":3072.87,"end":3094.542,"text":"第一次舉手的莊瑞雄主席還有在場的先進各位列席的官員我剛聽了洪文凱委員這一席話我是非常的驚嚇第一個這個不是你國民黨提什麼版本我們就要提對岸對於地方的一個建設可以用個案來推動那你也必須要確實去做一個實質的一個討論"},{"start":3102.599,"end":3120.712,"text":"我舉個例子高鐵南延到屏東我第八屆進來我在問毛自國的時候他跟我說要花那麼多錢啊可行性評估啊這第一個第二就跟院長有關啦院長在幹高雄市長的時候高鐵到屏東什麼方案都可以啊這院長你選總統的時候想法就不一樣囉高鐵南延到屏東啊那是盲腸啊你要記得吧"},{"start":3132.979,"end":3159.937,"text":"這當初你的講法侯友宇在選總統 我也沒有看到你有這樣的一個方案阿花蓮縣政府國會府規劃裡面 我也沒有看到你們有提出阿依我高鐵南延到屏東喔 到現在你去省買得好 17年了不是說到台東不可以 也不是說到花蓮不可以你們這是瞞天要價嘛"},{"start":3160.868,"end":3176.091,"text":"要多少錢?你家的事,我人多數,提了就算,是這樣子嗎?我看侯孟楷委員我連問你說可行性評估跟中規要幾年,我看你連搞都搞不清楚咧。高鐵要攔延到屏東啊,中規啊,可行性評估跟中規啊,一個中規綜合規劃最快要八年了。"},{"start":3189.653,"end":3189.893,"text":"開要開多久你知道嗎?"},{"start":3189.893,"end":3192.856,"text":"最快要九年啊!我為什麼說要用個案推動?我們是主張高鐵南延到屏東以後,現在要再多久你知道嗎?要再十幾年才會好喔!那你現在說要拉到台東,我問你,政府跟我們承諾了到潮州的,院長,連這個另外一個計畫都還沒推動喔!"},{"start":3214.983,"end":3226.888,"text":"那你說 到了潮州 好啦 就算一個案對我們FABR很好的時候 我財政資源都很充足 我給你到潮州啦到潮州以後 你又要推動一個 我說 欸 要到台東 要到花蓮那你要找路廊啊 你是要穿越太湖山啊 或是說 你說 照我原來這樣設為平和公路那裡去 我也 我們平南的人認為說 可能要到恆春啊 觀光地區國家公園啊"},{"start":3243.356,"end":3260.169,"text":"可是你請專家來看的話他又跟你說你就浪費錢啊我直接從泰晤山把你穿過去比較快啊一個縣市哪有三個站的搞不好不同意見都出來了光高鐵南延到屏東我們這一些主張屏東要有高鐵路我們飽受攻擊啊所以我剛舉那院長你的反覆裡面不是在講說你亂講話是在講說你當不同位置的時候你有不同的考量會有不同的考量"},{"start":3272.864,"end":3291.869,"text":"所以我的意思就是說建設地方這是對的大家也都樂見的沒有人會反對但問題是說我反對的是用特別條例的方式要蓋幾樓你們說十樓會好騙幾樓來到我屏東不用經過三樓我就要蓋十七年民進黨在執政耶然後你們提出的條例說十年把它完成都在變魔術了然後那為什麼不是用個案去推動"},{"start":3302.295,"end":3304.616,"text":"因為人多,所以我要用條例把它框住。國家建設是這樣子嗎?國家建設是這樣子嗎?你憑憑理啊,是這樣子嗎?我談的全部都是實質啊。我談的全部都是實質啊。縮短城鄉差距,我也樂於見到啊。我希望看到屏東,我們跟這個整個北部均衡發展。我也樂於看到東部跟西部同樣均衡的一個發展啊。可是建設是用這樣子的嗎?"},{"start":3328.342,"end":3335.048,"text":"如果是這樣子的話為什麼過去國民黨裡面任何選總統的人包括韓院長我也沒看過啊這個叫做個人即興之作管理建設五十年你就給我通過就好啦幾十年有沒有活那麼久跟我無關呢可以這樣子搞嗎"},{"start":3346.604,"end":3372.887,"text":"莊委員你講到現在對於五分鐘發言第一次發言同意還是不同意用條例的方式我反對啦個案去推動尊重科學專業評估我就贊成啦我跟莊委員還有各位黨團幹部再解釋一遍齁我們現在要針對幾次草以協商下來我們累積了一些寶貴的經驗在這裡我想跟大家沒有啦我意思是說我對你講的超過五分鐘就是我希望可以比較久啦這樣很簡單嘛"},{"start":3374.788,"end":3401.58,"text":"我們一開始就徵求,我們先建立一些典範出來第一個就是發言的時間接下來發言的參加對象第三個是發言的內容還有第四個,發言的情緒我嘗試著一點一滴把它建立起來我知道我知道,不急等一下你可以發,就十字部分發言可是你知道您還要發"},{"start":3403.141,"end":3424.579,"text":"阿謙我當然要發你是在做一個這樣說五分鐘的嘗試那現在我要告訴你說,你要想清楚,院長你今天是在整個國會、國民黨這樣在委員會裡面在沒收然後國會改了法案,全部全部要出委會,在委會沒有進過主條"},{"start":3426.021,"end":3454.559,"text":"然後他在草案選項的時候過水馬上去表決,也不能讓你講話這國會是死亡的你現在變成你一個很重要關鍵的位置他上次夫人旗和黃國昌要買莫生你的協調權都一個月到就要表決這個你看看,連你的職權都被沒收還是我們幫你捍衛的你現在主要的地位要像什麼?"},{"start":3456.524,"end":3479.244,"text":"師傅講 之前說得很清楚嘛 其實要一嘛本來過去是協商是四個月 後來馬英九執政改一個月然後他是要定期表決 不是馬上表決所以過去整個民主活動實踐大家都很清楚不管黃國昌或胡文綺都要在這個地方 胡文綺只會那種奇異的笑聲 黃孟海"},{"start":3482.367,"end":3503.175,"text":"你稍微人工位 要交給你誰在找 誰要找 找什麼攝影機站在哪裡我根本不知道攝影機站在哪裡 什麼直播那個是 樓志強在幹的事情啊所以我們沒有版本因為這個版本 我們就不接受他跟你拿什麼版本第一個 你要從現場的程度去看待嘛這是我們違憲"},{"start":3506.544,"end":3524.529,"text":"113篇內全是誰的,是行政責任的前例嘛,修法規定很清楚,我拜託我只要再看一下他要把113篇內一號行政議員通過以後,送到立法院給我們審議然後我們是有監督啊,主被動是要看清楚我現在給你講齁"},{"start":3527.406,"end":3544.082,"text":"因為時間 我跟你講 我跟店長告訴你說時間為什麼這五分鐘會有困擾 我就要時間給你看看嘛 是不是這樣謝謝柯總裁 等一下 我要讓你先發言好不好不是 我要跟你講 你是一個很重要的角色 因為你 你是三二法案 你是提案的人"},{"start":3545.356,"end":3571.549,"text":"立法院組織的規定很清楚,議員長必須一直中立啊。你是提案你要走草野鄉,你像這個所有角色上面,你要更中立,你能一直來,欸,喊這個五分鐘,你歡迎喔,過去在草野鄉,大家沒有限時間。我曾經在委員會一條條講一天你再講,這是民主的實現嘛,我們希望說,好不容易建立了一個民主,"},{"start":3573.029,"end":3596.522,"text":"實現起來,到這個時候,問題就是他所謂的新民意,因為新民意說,誒,你講國民黨太多,講三間、兩間都可以,這是什麼東西啊?這是民意啊?委員中心主義,你有沒有委員中心主義?委員中心主義沒有吧?上禮拜做什麼事情呢?連把執理長那個,執理條例,抽出政府圖,連把電話抽出政府圖,連把連"},{"start":3599.684,"end":3618.166,"text":"韓議長"},{"start":3618.725,"end":3628.495,"text":"這國家 這憲政制度 要不然我死你現在是有一個很關鍵的位置我很期盼你喔但是不是說你現在把他當成雙方人"},{"start":3631.323,"end":3658.796,"text":"沒有院長敢提出這種問題周恩來 你可以給起一個這種建議因為你規定在什麼地方 一個發言委員中在法案討論何其複雜你現在在跟這個談 談起來複雜未來 包括很多法案啦很多法案都是複雜的 一條一條的 全部要對抗我不相信啦你說 你們每一個法案都懂所以今天要談的就是說 很多要跟周恩來談 曾經"},{"start":3660.422,"end":3666.769,"text":"委員長的時候曾經一個法案寫成二十四後來台灣弄好 因為新華共和國說私下"},{"start":3669.874,"end":3697.484,"text":"蘇萊恩跟法務部至少在我們辦公室協商十次以上然後在草原鄉所以我們所定義的另一個法都是對人民鄉有關係黃汪昌在這個地方他也曾經實踐過因為前瞻他們在委員會的時候國民黨抵抗他讓他沒有辦法發言到草原鄉的時候院長當初蘇縣縣長還薄一個鐘頭給他在各部的找來"},{"start":3698.72,"end":3721.357,"text":"那載一名載一媽,我們兩個也播兩個鐘頭,載一名載一媽,問到保為止,罵到保為止。但是呢,在我們執政的時候就是說,我們要至少民主程序要把它維持著,否則的話你國會多數,你沒有國會多數。你這樣搞法就是永遠不想執政嘛,你這樣搞法,這跟國際很奇怪。"},{"start":3724.773,"end":3744.32,"text":"要一文章就好 兩文章就好 王孟海 你現在講的邏輯都錯誤對於這個法案 我有不同多的看法 要跟各位提案者請教我應該請教韓院長 你是提案者啊我可以問請教 你這個在現在體制上 前立法院原則花東快速這樣是對嗎"},{"start":3747.04,"end":3771.181,"text":"環島高鐵路你這樣說是對嗎?這也是政府的權益啊!立法院只要審議的權益,立法院沒有拼列國家預算的權益啊!分析一個人可以提兩照,我不知道他這個10年完成,可信評估要多久?還要環評的,還要限10年完成,這個有沒有可能啊?"},{"start":3773.27,"end":3791.605,"text":"現在你是一個非常關鍵的角色,因為你同是提案人,我希望你能夠中立。合作法,這個法律,不然大法案解釋,391、264,大家自己看,520、103,都是一樣的。我們國家憲政體制是一個很清楚的。"},{"start":3792.967,"end":3802.764,"text":"行政做什麼事情是行政做在憲法上有三條到六十一條講行政的事情五十八條、五十九條黨議上他們偏偏要送來"},{"start":3804.178,"end":3815.025,"text":"所以主動權、被動權要很清楚你看這個協定的時候那不用這麼誇張嘛不然去找天龍橋隔壁林氏民房、桃竹苗、科學園區我們拿來算賬那屏東也可以那就是執政權啊執政政治在哪裡所以說說"},{"start":3833.442,"end":3853.664,"text":"我們可能說我們有沒有提版本啊?不可能沒有提版本,你這版本根本沒用的嘛。這先期討論再來講,還有立法院什麼時候要審查的時候,也有新的版本沒有委員提案版本嘛。所以各種樣態都有,所以也有民黨提案,我們也不提案。"},{"start":3854.985,"end":3877.896,"text":"雖然人少,民眾黨民眾黨少,它不一定每一個法案都提案啊。所以你不能看說,但是他們可以對每一個法案提出他們的看法。這是民主政治啊。所以今天我還幫忙推到韓院長。這是一個歷史觀念時刻,你的角色非常重要。我先提一個程序發言好不好。我現在先提一個程序發言。也就是說上面"},{"start":3879.754,"end":3891.018,"text":"國際草案協商坦白講草案協商有幾種我告訴各位一種就是黨團協商協商法案這樣這個就是法案這個法案初期的憲政都多廣這個法案初期整個憲政運作都廣"},{"start":3895.816,"end":3915.936,"text":"那我們要從這個法案 不談內容而已啊是整個法 你這個立法的東西對不對所以不管這個法案一種就是預算中央政府總預算還有國民事務預算然後會在這裡協商這個就是最主要立法院運作最終三十幾年來"},{"start":3918.098,"end":3936.82,"text":"海岸的民主化會一直往前走,這是很重要的原因。過去我們曾經30年,1986年到2016,我們30年在立法院表決舉辦次,曾經委員會不敢,因為委員會表決舉辦次,從來沒有贏過,但是我們還是一直往前走。"},{"start":3937.898,"end":3957.638,"text":"到我自己在立法院來1993我們一起進來的時候到2016有22年間民主政府黨從來沒有表決成功過但是我們還是讓民主往前走今天要講一個很重要的道理就是說我們現在台灣民主走到哪裡去是要不來不進步"},{"start":3959.239,"end":3983.94,"text":"不是說我是新免疫你今天只是國民黨一票你和黃國昌加起來兩個人有可能過半黃國昌到最後不定每一條我都聽你的是不是這樣你以為你這樣子等你們加起來轉動台灣可以任何委託亂政你們做什麼就要什麼不可能的事情你這個樣子就永遠不想執政要不然台灣的民主破壞掉"},{"start":3986.082,"end":4007.561,"text":"這很清楚嘛,我們每次在這裡講,然後你們要聽不聽的,什麼在找攝影機攝影機,我根本搞不清楚,我們到這個年紀,人生很急,我們要面對良心,尤其人要當自己,"},{"start":4008.422,"end":4023.615,"text":"因為好不容易我們兩個一會選來然後當會議的工具你們自己為了要面對你們選區選民怎麼看待你啊?不是這樣啊 像李樹民啊 阿翁總對啦阿翁總對 我跟你講你要面對你的選民啦"},{"start":4027.847,"end":4051.041,"text":"第一步 因為有些程序問題就是說 我來講一半因為我們有很多法案要寫章 議章要寫章 那都繁雜那走運算是都繁雜 營業基金會 營業基金都繁雜然後還有議案 像上禮拜我們表決奪內法 要抽出經貨圖 那可以這樣搞嗎"},{"start":4055.143,"end":4073.809,"text":"只要一種最簡單叫陳希希的學章 那個可以三個人其他在立法院我站這裡三十年 從來沒有宣布人數過你看 你試試想想 有一個好案 包括陳里長 那個茲吉小玉以為只有四十個人提案 結果只有你們三個人來"},{"start":4075.091,"end":4085.039,"text":"各位黨團幹部因為我們很多列席官員大家可能還不太清楚唸一下名字也是對官員稍微等一下我先介紹一下列席的重要官員第一位國家發展委員會副主委高副主委歡迎您"},{"start":4105.702,"end":4131.971,"text":"交通部王部長財政部推動出產司張副司長內政部地政司張世察環境部環境保護司蔡司長原住民委員會洪副處長行政院公共工程委員會胡副處長"},{"start":4134.181,"end":4155.259,"text":"行政院主計總處王專門委員歡迎您這是我們以上列席的官員現在我想再重申一遍剛才我一開始開中民議講我們每一次發言五分鐘如果有認為必要可以再提出第二輪的發言那我們剛剛看到很多委員講話已經超過這個"},{"start":4157.659,"end":4185.815,"text":"我所提的這個內容我只想請問一下各位黨團幹部同意不同意我這樣一個宣告就講同意還是不同意不同意沒關係不同意就不同意不同意國民黨團同意請問一下民眾黨團同意不同意國民黨團同意好沒問題我不處理嘛如果你們有意見我不處理好不好好那我現在想對不起吳市長你發言很多"},{"start":4188.567,"end":4216.223,"text":"你第三次了我現在稍微念第二條大家同意不同意那第一條我們就暫緩討論好不好時間先等一下再說第二前次協商有幾個黨團幹部有請了其他委員來我覺得這個讓我對其他委員很不好意思因為他也離開現場我建議我們以後在預算的時候啊重要法案的時候各位黨團覺得要某些召委或者其他委員要列席的時候如果一個黨團提出其他兩個黨團沒有意見"},{"start":4218.044,"end":4234.602,"text":"我們是不是可以同意 這點要先確定同意不同意等一下不同意如果這樣的話我還念完嘛 不要急事情是這個樣子的 慢慢來如果說因為上次針對"},{"start":4236.055,"end":4249.862,"text":"我們洪偉來我很不好意思我請他離場因為我們希望黨團三長在開草案協商的時候當然代表如果黨團三長有事情請不要派代表來代替我們先確定黨團三長出席這個神聖慶"},{"start":4251.303,"end":4272.056,"text":"第二,針對個別重要的預算跟法案,大家覺得有需要委員來列席,大家都同意也可以。第三,如果主席認為要邀請某些委員來列席的時候,三位黨團都同意的話,我們也可以請這些召集委員或委員來說明,請問這樣可不可以接受?"},{"start":4276.729,"end":4285.733,"text":"這個你旁邊那個作案來你的意思是跟你創造出一個組局的潛力什麼時候立法院要來立法院開會是要組局同意的究竟什麼法院我要來這裡發言要院長同意的"},{"start":4293.51,"end":4322.368,"text":"我剛才就是在講這個問題啦,講很久了,後面就講這個問題我們柳寬怡,小熊有幾個熊,她就是有兩位小熊昨天,你有沒有看執行新法委會自己協商,從來沒有限制人數過,現在也沒有限制人數過這麼多年,三十年來,就是如此其他委員,因為主持協商就執行委員那你是不是也去啊,當然都有去嘛,是不是啊,所以呢"},{"start":4324.795,"end":4326.419,"text":"侯孟楷 我要講這個"},{"start":4329.668,"end":4357.063,"text":"這麼多人已經形成了憲政管理反正我們好不容易形成憲政管理能夠讓我們民主在這裡實現是一個非常重要的不是你來當院長以後然後婦人局請了婦人局指揮那是不是第一次協商我們在你在你院長室頭頭一刻就表決什麼還要給學長就表決紅毛黨也義務如此啊問題在法院在哪裡那這件事情我顯然清楚所以今天是一個非常關鍵的時刻"},{"start":4358.755,"end":4381.667,"text":"委員說,曾經一個法案搞一年多,還在委員會審查,當然早就應該出來了,最有名就是主委黃志華去民進黨領維州搞一兩年,都沒有關係,這個法案我們都能夠討論都可以討論,是一個民主的殿堂。"},{"start":4382.868,"end":4395.116,"text":"草案協商也是一樣所以我們回到院長組織的黨團協商執政新法68條開始就很清楚那我們今天要講的就是說你剛才其實韓院長也發生這個問題嘛反其山長不管民進黨山長、國民黨山長、民進黨山長你也有一個是萬人的法案爆發中啦"},{"start":4413.254,"end":4430.183,"text":"一個會期通過法案一年通過法案有一百多條一個會上屆總共通過將近七百個法案連其他的五百多個連其他的七百多個醫生案等等、會職案等等"},{"start":4432.028,"end":4450.287,"text":"都是靠黨團協商當然行政部門意見是非常重要因為他們最了解所有內容所以你要了解議法院所通過的任何法案是影響到每一個人比如說健保會點子一定要大家1.0"},{"start":4452.141,"end":4466.133,"text":"這東西是委員委會他們最清楚,他們經常討論,每一個人都有他的專業,當然山長要很努力去遲早寫章,要去先研究,那我不相信啊。"},{"start":4467.133,"end":4470.877,"text":"所以今天我剛才第一個程序問題就是要談這個上個禮拜"},{"start":4484.753,"end":4512.554,"text":"何志豪幹事長為了這個事情說那我懇求你,拜託你好不好,挨求你好不好,這樣很多法案你要讓提案人有人來參與,委員會的人都不能來,這個立法委員難道這個尹強東不是委員嗎?所以這個很重要,所以院長第一個,我終於解決你,第一個就是說都剩下一些等一下好不好,我不要講我沒有關係好不好。請你能夠濃縮一點好不好。好啦好啦,我知道。謝謝。"},{"start":4513.695,"end":4540.536,"text":"發言人說,你剛才提了兩個重點,就是說,整個人也有適合這個問題,增加什麼哪些人,要增加多少人,我們往下走下去。可是還沒走到這裡的時候,你又說,要增加多少人,當然要同意,這都絕對不行的。第二個,你有一個,因為報案條款,你同意也可以,這個不是這樣搞的。所以這個邏輯上是錯的,重點來,你應該好好的不會設計這些東西的。"},{"start":4542.655,"end":4559.787,"text":"議法人不是只有這樣恢復到一個八項條款而已要這代人要院長同意那院長不同意怎麼辦呢啊你們大家講好一定講不好嘛所以過去怎麼做現在應該怎麼做而且很多都非常複雜怎麼講英文都聽得懂"},{"start":4560.546,"end":4576.469,"text":"那是你們根本不想了解法案內容,很多法案,包括司法法院很多法案,希望其實未來打砸什麼法都會進來,非常多,各部會在各委會,公安同工生死,你想想看,太多的東西了,所以大家要很多。"},{"start":4577.8,"end":4600.482,"text":"經濟委員會有經濟的法案,電影法有電影法的法案,都是我們要尊重委員會的專業、委員會中心主義。你把委員都摸索回來的委員中心主義,所有法案從而經過讀,你反正就公平就算了吧。所以今天我們是,我是很理性在跟你談,我最憂心的是這個部分,我講坦白啦。"},{"start":4601.912,"end":4619.202,"text":"曾經三十年,民進黨三十年在立法院表決幾番次,說實在沒有贏過半次。我一九九三年進來到現在,到2016年的時候,二十年以來沒有表決過,沒有贏過。但是我們還是主持人職啊,我們不屈不撓,一直把民主實踐嘛。"},{"start":4622.113,"end":4627.496,"text":"二零一六以後補八年,那是每個人拚來拚去嘛,每個人拚來拚去,所以我們現在要說,以後他不是,你現在齁"},{"start":4633.207,"end":4633.788,"text":"你們所有的目標"},{"start":4657.583,"end":4683.244,"text":"昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?昨天晚上我還不清楚昨天晚上來的嗎?"},{"start":4684.38,"end":4686.782,"text":"第一,請黨團山長來這裡列席,是第一次草野協商,你直接指責民眾黨的"},{"start":4711.103,"end":4711.604,"text":"主席要求"},{"start":4729.558,"end":4737.825,"text":"請大家聽我講我們為什麼參與協商想建立這些就是過去總結的幾次經驗那柯總長剛剛對我的批判有一點偏差好像我這個主席把自己權無限放大必須徵詢我主席的同意誰才能列席或者不列席 錯"},{"start":4756.221,"end":4773.036,"text":"我們這樣建立黨團三長列席是第一次,你講的,我們覺得有道理。民眾黨來了兩位委員,你還講了一句很重的話,你今天是老人來的嗎?那時候還是你親口講,就在這個位置。我知道有道理,所以我們才確定黨團三長。"},{"start":4774.571,"end":4775.572,"text":"請提出,其他黨團沒有意見,歡迎來列席。"},{"start":4789.013,"end":4807.138,"text":"如果主席有認為哪些委員要列席來補充說明三個黨團都同意也歡迎來列席我沒有一點阿爸你嚴重誤會我的意思我只想點點滴滴來建立所以後面我要念一下在預算審查期間你們再聽聽看"},{"start":4809.296,"end":4830.766,"text":"預算協商時國民黨團推派五人民眾黨團推派五人台灣民眾黨推派四人參加以上人數是包括黨團三長這要徵詢大家的同意至於其他的議案若各黨團認為有增加其他委員參加的必要經過各黨團的同意我現在在協商的代表"},{"start":4837.281,"end":4866.921,"text":"我等一下印一份給你我們就允許來增加委員來參與協商這是一個比較完整的所以你一聽到前面就開始扭曲我主席我所講的我完全誤會所以我問各位三位黨團以後列席代表是不是以黨團幹部為主當黨團幹部請假有時不能來的時候請不要叫其他委員來頂替代替參加可以不可以那我一點一滴來嘛"},{"start":4867.762,"end":4873.176,"text":"這點可以不可以?來,院長,我先回答你的問題好不好?好我剛才講過,你說這個"},{"start":4876.523,"end":4899.989,"text":"寫章有很多種,陳信玉寫章什麼時候開議什麼時候,那個都很簡單的。往後就有很複雜的事情,預算,預算還有溫室預算。過去我曾經在這個地方,我當黨的阿美爾時期,我一個人來二十幾個國民黨,但是我們都走過來,沒有關係。所以預算法是一個非常繁雜的。"},{"start":4901.749,"end":4927.142,"text":"然後一上面提的是五六千個法案 五六千個案子然後再一直一謀 一直謀所以 院長不必不必謝謝我跟您謝謝等一下不是 我現在講說我現在回答你的問題嘛不是 我現在回答問題就是說因為各黨要爭相的人是要互相同意這個等於不可能的事情嘛"},{"start":4927.822,"end":4951.358,"text":"包括你說你提出來要大家同意這不可能是所以這個是無效的提議嘛這是無效的我們要面對現實到底哪些人應該讓他進來委員會召委提案委員各黨要取決尤其是法案和預算都是有經濟委員選國會是預算你不叫他來像搞財政的他怎麼懂的搞文化的他怎麼懂的所以這個東西是當然山長要負責"},{"start":4955.25,"end":4958.333,"text":"第三點我一併唸出來,請各位黨團幹部來討論。我是嘗試性的來建立。第三點,院會進行表決的時候,開會時大家難免會走動。"},{"start":4979.194,"end":5004.439,"text":"議場會有喧嘩的情況我要請各位黨團幹部也要拜託一起來共同維護一下議場的次序一同維護立法院井然有序理性問政的形象這是我一開始想要建立的這三點如果各位連這一點都有意見的話那我們未來院會一定會生很多不必要的波折所以我們一點一滴來建立請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎"},{"start":5008.36,"end":5031.95,"text":"我們一點點來討論啦針對以前講的就是說議場的時候這個要如何維護嘛你講幾年遊戲啦那議場安全局維護管理局安全維護條例辦法裡面寫得很清楚不可攜帶麥克風後來不可化罪丟名字都一一列出來了包括動物內臟"},{"start":5034.517,"end":5049.074,"text":"所以這幾年有去做四個字是大家是一個指引而已因為幾次講得很清楚嘛那個都寫在那裡議長應做的安全辦法裡面寫很清楚二個寫在胸前等等"},{"start":5050.103,"end":5076.888,"text":"所以過去是拿這個來丟的啦所以 董事長我這幾年只有幾年有序 不夠清楚啦但是我們在講這個講說不要亂說 大家不要亂進來 國民黨只有國民黨會搞這一套啦再來演講破壞在抗議嘛 所以這一點我們先把這個什麼叫幾年有序定義清楚"},{"start":5080.496,"end":5106.563,"text":"說好的我們都贊成不管我們再執政再也都是一樣我要再澄清一件事情這是我的想法跟周恩來秘書長一點關係都沒有不是他熟識我或者建議我這樣我只是感覺院會朝野協商我們一點一滴來建立一些規範我只是這樣想所以把它訴諸於文字向大家宣告我知道院長有想把這個事情做好一點我是認同的"},{"start":5709.486,"end":5718.692,"text":"來各位黨團幹部各位列席官員我們一起繼續開會好不好不會不會不會"},{"start":5731.124,"end":5750.637,"text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部現在我們繼續開會我想再一次建議就針對第一個時間問題第二協商代表還有預算我們派554然後經過各黨團同意我們就允許增加委員會參與協商第三"},{"start":5751.578,"end":5751.998,"text":"現在我們請吳思耀委員"},{"start":5774.163,"end":5794.021,"text":"謝謝主席,我想就是因為等一下進入協商,那我要回應一下,那剛剛那個洪孟凱書記長說,那民進黨有沒有對岸,行政部門有沒有對岸,那我可能要說明一下,這樣一個違憲的法案,違法的法案,我們不可能有對岸。"},{"start":5794.582,"end":5795.142,"text":"五分鐘不夠講"},{"start":5806.209,"end":5826.338,"text":"我的口才沒有問題我的表達能力沒有問題我想在場的每一位表達能力都沒有問題恐怕是對方的理解能力有問題所以我們需要多花時間好好來對話跟論述那也擔心大家那個聆聽能力有問題的話我有準備比較清楚的資料大家也可以看一下"},{"start":5827.518,"end":5850.718,"text":"就是為什麼我們沒有提對案?因為這三個法案是違反憲法第七十條的。行政院對於行政院所提的預送案不得為增加支出這決議,所以這是違反憲法七十條。它也違反大法官釋字第391號,行政立法權力分立的原則。對面的朋友如果理解能力,"},{"start":5851.559,"end":5853.821,"text":"這三個法案也違反了我們立法院自己修的法"},{"start":5872.08,"end":5894.382,"text":"財政紀律法第五條財政紀律法第八條以及預算法第九十一條我就不再贅述所以一個違憲又違法的法案我們當然不可能提對案所以不要說沒有對案好像就不關心交通建設好像就無助於今天的討論我想先釐清這是非常錯誤的顛倒是非"},{"start":5895.236,"end":5917.904,"text":"第二 未來如果再限制我們的出席人員我還是希望因為在審法案的時候該委員會的委員尤其是召委是一定我認為他是必要出席的而不是經大家同意才能夠額外plus的他就是必須到場"},{"start":5920.566,"end":5935.578,"text":"因為一個委員會有兩個召委,各黨的召委都可以來,他可以清楚地針對在協商的時間來提供這些法案在委員會審查當中的爭點在哪裡,所以召委的出席絕對有利於協商的品質跟效率"},{"start":5936.218,"end":5936.618,"text":"提案委員．提案委員"},{"start":5952.993,"end":5953.413,"text":"法案提案委員"},{"start":5983.424,"end":6001.952,"text":"黨團同意,我覺得這樣非常怪我這講的是非常公平的事情那同樣的原則跟原理也運用在預算的協商一樣預算協商的時候當然該委員會的委員一定要能夠是受邀的必然的列席人員以及呢某些議案"},{"start":6003.132,"end":6027.622,"text":"某一個委員他一直堅持這個預算他就是要砍他就是要保留他有堅強強大的理由他必須來到協商的現場論述給大家聽那他當然也是要列席之列所以我是對於剛剛主席的才是我要提出這個實務的以我過去非常之前的九年的國會運作的經驗那我想提出我的分享那第三件事情就是"},{"start":6028.562,"end":6028.582,"text":"委員長"},{"start":6043.775,"end":6043.855,"text":"《國民黨黨團提議》"},{"start":6066.929,"end":6092.227,"text":"回答的時間他們才能夠基於他們的專業來說明每一個條文可行、不可行、合理、不合理所以不是只有協商的場域不是只有立委有發言權而是代表都要有然後最後一項呢就是我也對於今天的法案的程序我有一點點不太理解因為有三個案如果依交通委員會送審排完的這個順序第一個案應該是花東快速道路"},{"start":6093.007,"end":6093.147,"text":"副總召謝謝院長"},{"start":6120.776,"end":6129.596,"text":"我在這裡要再一次讓本院院長及本院委員還有全國國人來了解"},{"start":6131.602,"end":6156.799,"text":"這包括環島高鐵路網、國道六號還有這個花東快這個都是經過長年的討論這個花東快呢是在2016年立法委員徐政衛委員就已經提出來2017年在立法院表決這個花東快而且希望納入前瞻基礎計畫結果民進黨反對把這個案子封殺了"},{"start":6161.382,"end":6173.83,"text":"已經經過八年的不斷的一再的重複的討論那環島高鐵2021年有王部長說出環島高鐵不是夢之後經過本席跟蘇貞昌蘇院長在院會也有多次討論包括陳建仁陳院長我們都有多次的討論"},{"start":6190.262,"end":6200.914,"text":"對這個事情他們都持正面的看法我們今天提出的條例正是因為有經過委員會跟院會的討論過才把它正式的把它提出來"},{"start":6205.158,"end":6212.666,"text":"國道六號本席在2020年3月10日在交通委員會 民進黨延遲3年6個月以後在去年年底發報"},{"start":6223.131,"end":6247.24,"text":"2020年3月4號在交通委員會就已經通過但到2023年的12月才正式發包這個都經過冗長的立法院委員會以及院會的討論三大案甚至在立法院都有表決過尤其花東快速道路是在2017年前瞻基礎計畫的時候徐正慧立委提出來"},{"start":6248.513,"end":6276.45,"text":"但是被民進黨立委在院會以狹多數暴力的方式來否決了這個案子然後呢再過來在這一次這個2024總統大選民進黨所提名的花蓮區的立法委員候選人跟台東區的立法委員候選人都把他列為政見的主要政見的第一條上網查就可以查得到賴清德總統當選人在競選的時候也到花蓮表示"},{"start":6277.25,"end":6305.823,"text":"花東快他們是支持的所以本席指示把所有這些政治人物對人民的承諾把它付諸條例來進行推動跟實施而這一屆這幾個案子都在立法院交通委員會以及經濟委員會的聯席這次會議當中都經過了完整的詢答但是滿遺憾的是詢答完之後"},{"start":6307.911,"end":6335.204,"text":"則起在委員會召委召集處理的情況之下民進黨都選擇缺席不出席然後再用各種扭曲睜著眼睛說謊話大概說謊說久了認為說謊就是事實這些經過長年的討論而且委員會也正式詢答過但是唯獨在草引協商的時候民進黨惡意的缺席然後再來韓院長這裡把這裡韓院長主持的草引協商當秀長"},{"start":6336.417,"end":6336.597,"text":"蘇貞昌 蘇院長"},{"start":6362.548,"end":6368.177,"text":"分數不齊 連黨產條例他都是連署人 他一樣召集草原協商所以"},{"start":6369.922,"end":6393.031,"text":"蘇嘉全蘇院長我們要特別強調2016蘇嘉全蘇院長有多少案子是他個人連署也參與草原協商所以我覺得韓院長不要被這些不實的謠言來對你有任何職權行使職權上的任何恐嚇威脅或者謠言重傷都不要怕我們是依照我們的自己的職權在進行"},{"start":6395.253,"end":6400.018,"text":"我要特別強調,依照大法官解釋463號解釋令"},{"start":6411.86,"end":6433.002,"text":"就是在立法院多數立法委員審議預算如果不符條件者就是在審議整個預算的時候我們本來就可以刪除也可以請行政單位來做調整剛剛有沒有提到說我們這些提案是否增加是否增加了預算"},{"start":6435.745,"end":6463.401,"text":"如果我們這個提案是增加預算那是預算案的部分並不是法律案的部分大法官解釋得非常清楚預算案的時候我們不能增加預算但是法律案我們本來就可以提出來我特別在這裡跟全國國人還有我們立法院同仁做個說明這個在立法院這過去到現在這個案例非常的多"},{"start":6466.168,"end":6474.226,"text":"在民國九十年十月十一號基隆河流域整治特別條例裏面"},{"start":6475.799,"end":6500.601,"text":"由廖學光委員所提出來在立法院刪讀通過在95年1月13號石門水庫及其集水區整治特別條例也是刪讀通過這兩個案由林正峰委員所提出來都刪讀通過立法院通過以後行政院並沒有提出版本但是呢行政院還是尊重立法院"},{"start":6502.387,"end":6522.588,"text":"分別的編列預算也都執行完畢所以我特別強調我們所有都是依法在辦理而且經過多年的討論甚至環島高鐵是交通部主動提出來的我們再次強調這個十年今天提出的條例大家都可以來討論"},{"start":6524.363,"end":6550.354,"text":"但是這完全是合法 而且沒有違憲的問題再過來 因為過去有這麼多的案例再過來 我特別強調的為什麼有所謂十年這個問題因為政府公部門公部門在進行所有的這些建設等等跟民間的力量差太多我舉個最簡單的例子台北到宜蘭現在規劃是十一年"},{"start":6552.247,"end":6578.815,"text":"用政府預算支出但是到底要做多少年可能15年18年但是我們反觀從台北一直做到高雄左營都已經通車了台灣高鐵短短7年多民間來做7年啦全部完工通車7年多所以今天是一個很簡單的事情我們的行政效率的腐敗"},{"start":6580.276,"end":6602.627,"text":"行政效率的延宕這個事情是可以交由民間來做會比政府的效率更好所以我要希望執政黨不要在這裡抹黑這裡完全沒有所謂的乾坑法案如果對行政院編列預算有意見沒有關係我們可以討論"},{"start":6604.983,"end":6626.307,"text":"行政委員會的預算可以拿掉 委託民間BOT來做 政府零出資 我們也同意環島高鐵 國道六號 都有民間來做國內國際BOT標 沒問題 政府零出資 我們也接受 不要再文明化 這是情根法案 這是國家要做的基礎建設 早就應該要做的"},{"start":6627.635,"end":6648.006,"text":"臺灣已經跟全世界脫節,就是腐敗的行政體系。我要再次的強調,花東快是賴清德總統到花蓮所承諾的。更是從2016年討論到現在,當時民進黨以多數暴力在立法院在前瞻基礎計畫的時候把它否決掉。"},{"start":6649.584,"end":6674.603,"text":"這是最基本的基礎建設卑微的應該要做的事情因為畢竟這次的大地震我們大家都看到這次的大地震清朝時代走的路我們現在還在給花東人走蘇花公路埋掉了多少人這是台八線埋掉了多少人但是蘇花改卻是最安全的一條路沒有任何人"},{"start":6675.606,"end":6677.007,"text":"麻煩請交通部王部長國家發展委員會的高副主委要不要簡短扼要的"},{"start":6706.039,"end":6707.181,"text":"我們把話先講清楚,不論其他"},{"start":6727.318,"end":6749.847,"text":"你到底在講什麼我搞不清楚那應該是講說 花東快可以演繹而已花東快在中央部委員也在做可行性評估八月份才會出來所以我們先不講這些東西講一個憲政框架這比較重要吧就是說你"},{"start":6751.124,"end":6766.008,"text":"整個憲政體系上應該是怎樣的規範行政前是行政前的部分,立法前是立法前的部分剛才吳思堯也講得很清楚我剛才也講得很清楚,這裡面還有391、264還有大華市市520、585那對阿,先往70條,先往58條開始看所以我們現在在講的是說"},{"start":6776.927,"end":6805.261,"text":"你要講BOT是另外,現在你本來就有BOT條例,現在你兩個法案的性質是不一樣的喔。院長我現在講一句話,請你不要再介意。今年三四月的時候,你曾經參加這個柔委員的一個民主改革的營,副院長也氣了。你講一句話說這個民主實在太可愛了。"},{"start":6806.141,"end":6834.157,"text":"可以理性對話是不是這樣我是要講理性對話但是我們沒有關係我講錯你來指正我你講錯我來指正你今天我要講的就是說問題你不要把很多不同的事情插嘴嘴而且根本沒有邏輯基礎生物科技的發展條例生物科技的發展條例那是2012年到了2016年以後我們修改了國會執行法"},{"start":6836.621,"end":6856.355,"text":"有關於這個《立法院組織法》第三條很清楚,院長必須,這是黨派,從此也要意志中立。所以我說院長不宜在這提法案是這個意思,今天很尷尬,要坐在這裡。況且這個法案裡面充滿違憲,尤其花東快。"},{"start":6858.355,"end":6874.926,"text":"鄉長你偏遺傳,你信嗎?現在你倒過來,你是偏遺傳,你特別要遺傳,以後就是偏遺傳了。為甚麼馬英九十二時期,一百零一年,王挺生就提這個法案,馬英九不敢讓他過。"},{"start":6878.848,"end":6905.099,"text":"2016期政會提過沒有錯也不會過今天你請你重來你說立法院討論多久立法院這一屆才開始所有都是新名義新的委員回來討論現在才開始討論所以已經是不同的議會這期也不聯繫了所以今天要談的就是說這個在憲政體制上可以這樣搞嗎我們先談清楚這個"},{"start":6906.454,"end":6926.869,"text":"至於環島高當然現在你講的那個名稱也很奇怪根本不是環島高只是東部四個縣市嘛那個東西本來就有BOT條例坦白講就沒有條例你要怎麼BOT是沒有錯BOT有自辦也有政府辦的"},{"start":6928.314,"end":6956.883,"text":"所以我們要講說兩個東西的層次是不一樣的東西因為花東快很清楚是違反憲法的假如這樣你可以這樣編以後大家編包括接下來你還有新中文那個才厲害因為東部的地址非常糟糕所以它當然一定要可依評估一定要完平嘛這些都沒有錯你就限制什麼都要十年限制它完成"},{"start":6958.069,"end":6978.718,"text":"尤其你要了解你的財源你就隨便寫一個就國際主權之一我看不太懂這是國際主權是哪一國的是中國的一帶一路還是什麼的國際主權基金所以今天我們要提法大家要很冷靜的能夠來談我希望韓院長因為"},{"start":6981.414,"end":7003.997,"text":"歷史記憶讓你當院長的時候你是一個非常關鍵的角色我們今天還沒進入主角是要把很多遊戲規格講清楚因為我們這一屆大家都新來了大家都新來了所以過去立法院應該怎麼樣大家能夠把民主好好地再完成實踐沒有所謂先是五分鐘先是吃素的這一點你給大家思考一下"},{"start":7005.518,"end":7019.735,"text":"尤其你這個行政部門要不要給他限制?行政部門有時候要解釋的時候,有時候司法院要解釋這個總判決,和國務部有不同意見,也會在這裡爭辯啊。對不對?政府要解釋,你要好好解釋。"},{"start":7021.55,"end":7048.697,"text":"所以民主的發展上說限制五分鐘、三分鐘五分鐘太多,三分鐘就好了這是絕對不可能的事情好不好請法院長,你一定要拿這個堅持住反正我們這邊少數,我們認定搞錯了,不要看已經輸嘛這個是,我們一定會認定這個事實啦但我曾經也是表決過三十年沒有贏過,幾關是沒有贏過,我們就走過來啊我們曾經表決都贏八八年"},{"start":7050.454,"end":7063.187,"text":"所以今天形勢已經轉得不一樣了,草小也大我們因為認定這個事實,我們表決都會輸,沒有問題那表決輸沒有關係,但是大家把道理講清楚就好了好不好"},{"start":7064.5,"end":7064.52,"text":"王國興議員"},{"start":7079.847,"end":7088.312,"text":"我就聚焦院長剛剛三個問題第一個問題我就沒有按照順序其實我在那天院長請另外的委員說不是山長出去我本來想發言我是不想讓那個氣氛太過於緊張所以我走出去本來我們在草野協商程序性的東西其實確實都是山長程序性的東西"},{"start":7104.921,"end":7109.665,"text":"但實質性的討論,其實草委協商：你說召委：即使說慣例裡面大家都走來走去：各個政黨也都不會去反對：那譬如說,明天我們很快就會討論到的公糧補貼的部分那這些的部分,你說農業縣的立委甚至於說召委你沒讓他進來我們這些比較都市的來討論這個,通嗎?"},{"start":7130.748,"end":7135.295,"text":"也不太對你就涉及到整個醫療的或者涉及到整個點數的"},{"start":7138.175,"end":7163.805,"text":"怎麼計價的問題你說未完的沒有來這也好奇怪這真的好奇怪所以那天在講我本來要跟你補一下說我們本來山長講的是在慣例上其實都是程序性實質性的東西本來就是有各委員會的召委這才是合理的嘛大家共同院長的職務本來就是讓整個議案或立法的程序整個立法院的議事程序的進行讓它更順遂"},{"start":7165.786,"end":7175.673,"text":"那剛剛那個副分級總召講的,院長你沒聽,他完全在胡說八道,你知道嗎?為什麼說他胡說八道?比如說一個雪隧,雪隧才12.9公里,蓋了二十幾年,你也不應該去講說行政效率那麼差,那麼貪腐,我不會這樣去想。"},{"start":7186.607,"end":7191.791,"text":"水稅這個是被列為工程界的奇蹟被列入大英百科全書裏面大家覺得這是台灣很不簡單的工程上它會有困難的有些工期長有時候你不要以為是人定勝天倒未必我剛私底下我也跟副總召講我說不是反對你花蓮的建設不是反對你台東的建設高鐵到台東到花蓮高鐵沒有到屏東你永遠沒辦法到台東到花蓮"},{"start":7214.309,"end":7216.41,"text":"所以你乾脆就我們在個案來推動嘛你高鐵現在到我屏東六號快速還要幾年呢?還要十幾年呢?啊接下來你行政會合定的是要到潮州呢?你不是來個案幫忙推動?你到了潮州以後你再去想想看路廊要怎麼走啊?"},{"start":7234.619,"end":7245.883,"text":"合理啊 你去看看喔1987年 那個時候 中國國民黨執政的時候你們行政院去指示交通部去台灣高鐵 我們去做可行性評估研究了快四年欸"},{"start":7250.553,"end":7254.075,"text":"當初是怎麼樣叫 行政院指示交通部去做可行性評估啊 立法院沒那麼厲害啦 立法院沒有辦法去 我們不要外行去領導內行啦立法院我們去做法案 去對行政部門的監督 我認為是非常合理啦 但是啊 想到什麼就想去做什麼"},{"start":7273.719,"end":7281.027,"text":"沒那麼簡單,好像就變成行政院就廢掉就好了,你行政院來做我們立法院的行政局就好了,這個也不通,這個也不通。"},{"start":7283.925,"end":7287.706,"text":"回到原來剛剛院長講那個就是說我認為啦程序性確實是真的是三長啦但是實質性的東西依然的不同真的是要真的是建議讓不同專業的人可以進來可以進來那至於說講幾分鐘難免啦難免我發現議員我笑過你也不懂這個都很正常那立法院裡面你說要要你剛講四個字叫做什麼一"},{"start":7310.778,"end":7317.901,"text":"清生細魚?可有可能!你說兩個宗教大家睡著見了面兩個人就要對幹了是要清生細魚?有時候我說的大聲,因為你看到我的眼神你也知道這很溫柔的對不對?你看我說的大聲,做我奶咪術的也笑眉眉!大聲是不一定叫拍椅啦!你知道嗎?不一定叫拍椅啦!每個人表達的方式不一樣!"},{"start":7333.968,"end":7345.383,"text":"但是讓它可以更順遂的去進行我是覺得院長怎麼猜試那都會合理啦但不要說用同意的方式啦程序跟實質本來就有所不同啦好不好"},{"start":7347.134,"end":7372.468,"text":"謝謝莊瑞雄委員的發言,我補充兩點。第一,我是說我們在院會表決的時候,坐在下面的委員彼此聊天的時候,請黨團幹部約束,讓大家盡量輕聲細語。不是說質詢的委員輕聲細語,那這個質詢起來還有什麼震撼性或威力可言等等。彼此委員在聊天的時候不要喧嘩,大家輕聲細語,是這個意思。第二,沒關係。"},{"start":7374.531,"end":7375.992,"text":"至於其他議案除各委員會院會說明之外說明人"},{"start":7403.55,"end":7411.387,"text":"為外圍有增加其他委員會參加的必要經過各黨團都同意我們就允許相關的委員來參加"},{"start":7412.968,"end":7440.038,"text":"類似像這樣的一個文字精神我們修正完我下次來提出來但是不管怎麼樣就是剛剛幾位委員講的很有道理原住民案原住民不說明農業縣農業委員不說明衛生醫療這的的確確這是說不過去的所以我嘗試性的下一次我把文字修正再跟大家報告接下來我們請吳思堯委員發言發言完以後請交通部王部長還有國家發展委員會高副主委請準備"},{"start":7441.149,"end":7456.579,"text":"主席,我會努力輕聲細語。我一直認為,講話若是有道理,就變大聲。對,講話若是有道理,就變大聲。而且問政、質詢也不是為了要求什麼威力、震撼性,我都不這樣認為。據李立正,我們說話有道理,變大聲。"},{"start":7459.961,"end":7483.373,"text":"那我這裡要說就是回應一下傅坤祺總召剛剛說的其實事實很清楚交通建設在花蓮我們都支持而事實上關心花東建設的發展民進黨執政的八年是最用心到目前為止對於花東的交通建設整個民進黨八年的政府投入了五千兩百億"},{"start":7484.654,"end":7501.949,"text":"已經投入的兩千兩百億,規劃中的三千億,所以照顧花東,民進黨政府最用心。已經,來主席,有人沒有輕聲細語,就傅坤祺總召又在這種很奇怪的笑聲干擾了本席的發言。"},{"start":7503.089,"end":7520.934,"text":"然後呢第二個就講剛剛副總召說的花東快速公路的建設其實早在過去國民黨執政的時候馬英九政府執政的時候交通部就已經提出一個可行性評估對不對等一下王部長可以回應王部長"},{"start":7522.114,"end":7534.1,"text":"在花東快速公路的建設在一百零四年的時候交通部的可行性評估是被馬英九總統任內打回票的您等一下可以再說是不是我說的是正確的"},{"start":7535.595,"end":7561.147,"text":"而是民進黨想方設法針對花東快速公路的建設在蔡英文總統上任以後一百零九年重啟了這一個建設案的可行性評估再講一次有關副冠祺總召今天您提的特別條例裡頭之一的花東快速公路建設馬英九執政的時候一百零四年"},{"start":7561.767,"end":7586.352,"text":"打回票了交通部的可行性評估也就是馬英九否認否定了這個案子但是民進黨政府上台蔡英文總統讓這個案子重啟評估死灰復燃重新能夠被討論花東能夠被發展所以道理講清楚說明白照顧花東建設立法院當然"},{"start":7587.532,"end":7587.952,"text":"這是在幹什麼?是在掛電話位嗎?"},{"start":7616.266,"end":7627.276,"text":"是在搶功勞嗎為了花東的建設功勞是大家一起努力推動的所以能夠讓它成形成案是我們共同的目標"},{"start":7628.786,"end":7651.122,"text":"然後因為傅恩熙委員對於高鐵我講高鐵這個提案高鐵的這個提案裡頭您說要限期十年完成而高鐵的這個特別條例呢您所提的條文是只有八個條對不起有幾個條文高鐵的這個案子有十個條文"},{"start":7652.743,"end":7672.712,"text":"對於環島高鐵副國務卿委員的提案特別條例是十個條文十個條文當中就是壓了要限期十年完成大家可以去回溯一下我如果講錯等一下王部長可以指證我就是現在已經完成的台灣的高鐵是從民國七十六年開始可行性評估一直到高鐵"},{"start":7674.073,"end":7702.642,"text":"通過可行性評估開始進行所有的招標程序開始進行所有的施工、興建到完工是民國九十六年所以高鐵現行的高鐵是經過了七十六年到九十六年從第一個可行性評估到最後的完工他就要二十年現在傅坤祺委員的提案要求十年就要完成誰做得到呢這就是這個條文不合理的地方更何況"},{"start":7703.742,"end":7728.925,"text":"發生了大地震,很多台灣的地質受損,還需要更嚴謹的環境影響評估,不是嗎?最後一個,剛剛因為副總召提了過去賴清德主席如何如何,哪一個明代或哪一個蔡英文總統如何如何,那我也只好拿出過去傅坤祺委員在2017年5月8號接受專訪的時候,這是傅坤祺總召說的,"},{"start":7730.626,"end":7734.07,"text":"今天民進黨提出的前瞻建設4200億預算新建輕軌跟捷運,哇,未來的營運會虧損多少呢?國家要把這些問題講給國民聽才可以來審查。"},{"start":7744.208,"end":7761.522,"text":"這是2017年5月8號副坤祺委員的立場我覺得非常對在審查任何的交通建設都要好好的說給國民聽未來的營運計劃新建的計劃是如何我支持2017年副坤祺委員的說法"},{"start":7762.262,"end":7782.769,"text":"同樣在我對面的有紅夢凱委員紅夢凱委員在2021年的10月27號在立法院交通委員會質詢有關於高鐵環台到底有沒有經過可行性評估呢?要花多少民脂民膏呢?紅夢凱委員更質疑高鐵從南港拉到宜蘭就要花1700多億那麼"},{"start":7785.871,"end":7800.868,"text":"環島高鐵又要花多少錢呢?紅夢凱委員在2021年10月27號立法院的議事錄交通委員會可以找得到紅夢凱委員認為這種花大錢的環島高鐵要好好的進行可行性評估"},{"start":7802.35,"end":7808.835,"text":"所以我就以今天坐在現場的兩位我都非常同意你們過去的發言那同樣的現在我們在審查這個重要的交通建設就應當尋交通的專業可行性評估所有的營運計劃新建的計劃都應當好好討論所以今天一次發言限制五分鐘我再講一次給我五十次發言我都非常樂意來跟公共對話跟在野黨對話"},{"start":7829.39,"end":7853.639,"text":"所以請等一下那個王國才部長可以回應一下我剛剛說的幾個問題完整的交通評估是什麼現在的花東快是不是就是在我們109年蔡英文上任之後讓她重啟評估而今年8月就會有可行性評估的出爐以及現在的高鐵是花了幾十年的時間去興建這些部分就專業論專業需要行政部門來示意謝謝"},{"start":7857.02,"end":7858.483,"text":"民眾黨黃總召跟吳春成有沒有任何寶貴的意見?"},{"start":7870.024,"end":7887.504,"text":"第一個是針對今天院長所建議在程序上進行的方式,我們原則上是贊同的。因為這直接會牽涉到黨團協商他的本質。"},{"start":7889.454,"end":7915.628,"text":"因為在我國立法院這個非常特殊的黨團協商的制度在立法院職員刑事法裡面相關的條文規範的比較少但是它的本質是針對大家有不一樣意見的看可不可以尋求共識因此黨團協商的本質是共識決共識決就是如果有人不同意協商就不成立"},{"start":7916.963,"end":7936.904,"text":"也正是因為這個樣子所以黨團協商其實也沒有強制出席的效力就好像我們所召集的黨團協商民主進步黨黨團不來我們也沒有辦法所有的人在那邊枯坐等了一個小時民進黨就是不來"},{"start":7938.186,"end":7938.206,"text":"廣告"},{"start":7968.686,"end":7996.722,"text":"就坐在這邊那只不過說有時候在討論一些問題的時候不是就事論事的討論是在進行人身攻擊從人家做的姿勢笑的聲音臉部的表情全部都可以成為黨團協商評論的內容那真的有的時候就會讓人家不知道時間的分配跟使用"},{"start":7999.366,"end":8019.577,"text":"到底有什麼意義但上一次在黨團協商針對程序性的事項我也再次的請教了院長跟秘書長事後也有機會到院會跟兩會確認我那天的理解沒有錯誤目前立法院的遊戲規則是當有黨團拉必須要黨團協商"},{"start":8026.109,"end":8047.161,"text":"那就是強制冷凍一個月那這一個月內必須要召集一次的協商但是那一次的協商並沒有限定一定要是院長召集的協商換言之也就是在委員會召集過協商那協商不成立了以後那我們接下來就可以依照規則"},{"start":8048.522,"end":8064.73,"text":"交給院會處理當然黨團如果要選擇交給院長來再進行協商這個是黨團也有這個程序上的機會拜託院長您再出面看可不可以尋求一定的共識"},{"start":8065.971,"end":8086.085,"text":"我想對於這個運作上面的規則我相信院長跟秘書長都非常非常的清楚那這個是今天針對程序性上面的事項我們先表達我們的看法那就實質上面的事項就實質上面的事項我們的黨團有討論過針對有關於重要的建設支持"},{"start":8096.252,"end":8096.452,"text":"執行委員"},{"start":8115.353,"end":8134.718,"text":"或公共債務法相關的限制,我們也不同意。當然,任何的交通建設都必須要有可行性的評估。可行性的評估,我們認為說,有可行性的評估,行政部門負責任地做出來了以後,"},{"start":8135.758,"end":8159.009,"text":"交由立法院來把關確定真的有可行性的時候我們再往下走因為今天也只是協商大家表達大家基本的立場並沒有要就法條的文字去做細部的調整所以以上先就今天院長所提出來程序性的事項"},{"start":8159.989,"end":8187.688,"text":"以及在這個交通建設上面我們原則上我們支持建設但我們不同意用特別預算的方式來加以處理遵守財政的紀律以及要求可行性的評估大概是我們黨團基本的立場以上說明謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員的發言各位黨的幹部我們請行政列席的王部長跟高副主委簡短二要來說明對我們特別條例有什麼看法請"},{"start":8191.891,"end":8213.267,"text":"委員長、各位委員,整個交通建設,我們現在整個交通建設都是用行政中長期個案計畫,這也是剛才黃國昌委員所提的,可信心研究、綜合規劃、環評、設計、施工,過去很多案子都這樣,如果以在場委員來看,包括亞美投入的延伸,現在這個"},{"start":8217.891,"end":8242.21,"text":"高鐵延伸屏東包括彈江大橋、湖門崗園彈江大橋包括傅文綺委員的樹花庵、院長過去在高雄的捷運黃線包括黃國昌委員在當時徵集汽池交流道的改善、康林街南路閘道包括傅院長、國歐市楓園段、林思敏委員的"},{"start":8243.502,"end":8272.238,"text":"新竹輕軌都是按照這個程序這個程序也不是說一個好像故意刁難的程序它是讓這個案子更可行的一個程序所以我們還是建議說在整個這個計畫不適合用一個特別條例然後讓它來就是進行某一個個案計畫來執行還是回到剛才談到的這個可行性的評估程序那今天的這個三個案子國道六號東延花蓮是我們現在正在進行中"},{"start":8272.958,"end":8283.653,"text":"因為他國六號到花蓮同樓最大問題是穿越中岸山脈所以我們現在在做路廊的選擇還地質的踏桿這在115年就會完成"},{"start":8285.866,"end":8303.322,"text":"高鐵的計畫,高鐵現在有兩段,南邊是到屏東的六塊處,北邊是到宜蘭的縣政中心。我們都留下了延長的空間,讓它可以延伸。這意思是說,高鐵延伸宜蘭、屏東,這個現在在綜合規劃跟環平。"},{"start":8307.85,"end":8307.87,"text":"委員長"},{"start":8325.456,"end":8351.777,"text":"我們也希望說在過去的這兩段也是按照這樣的方式來質詢《花東快速道路》剛才薩爾委員所提的在104年、103年是不可行的所以它是中斷的那的確是由徐政惠委員當時提出在108年提出說能夠重啟那我們也接受這個主決議所以我們就重啟了在今年的8月就完成可行性報告了"},{"start":8352.498,"end":8367.087,"text":"如果完成可行的話接下來就開始走所以這個程序也是非常的快所以我們也是覺得說全國的陸海空建設非常的多每個過去都是遵守這樣的程序來走"},{"start":8369.989,"end":8370.93,"text":"謝謝交通部王部長說明 接下來請國家發展委員會高副主委請說明"},{"start":8390.599,"end":8410.459,"text":"委員長還有各黨團的代表這次的環島高速鐵路的特別條例把國發會列為主管機關那我想我國發會有兩點意見的表達第一個就是說其實我們現在政府推動重大交通建設的機制已經相當的明確那其實剛剛就是"},{"start":8411.3,"end":8411.46,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8435.524,"end":8460.456,"text":"所謂的行政院所屬的中長程個案計劃,您報行政院報行政院以後會交國發會審議這在審議的過程中間要符合所有的相關法令,比如是環境影響評估水土保持法為什麼要經過這樣的繁複的行政程序呢?基本上是要確保政府的支出具有效益,而且有助於我們國土的永續發展"},{"start":8462.297,"end":8481.906,"text":"第二點,其實我們交通建設其實依現在鐵路法的規定交通建設的主管機關是交通部高速鐵路的主管機關是交通部那剛才其實部長有講到西部的這些高速鐵路的目前是由"},{"start":8482.766,"end":8505.992,"text":"交通部來主管如果東部是由國發會來主管的話第一個也不符合我們國發會的職責而且同時東西兩部是有不同的主管機關第三個我想剛才那個建設時程10年剛剛委員也有講過了其實我們從可行性研究到真正的輿運的時候事實上是耗時了21年所以以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":8507.35,"end":8508.732,"text":"主席、各位委員同仁。我想經過大家討論"},{"start":8525.928,"end":8541.602,"text":"都是應該很理性的,應該很多現象都浮現很清楚,剛才民眾黨也表示他的意見和看法,大家都很清楚。所以請副院長知道,你不要每次講話說民進黨的福田獎勵,我們回來福田獎勵說威脅恐嚇院長。"},{"start":8544.504,"end":8571.103,"text":"這些都是沒有這回事我們要把道理講清楚剛才講說高鐵民用機以後七年完成給民進黨做的話這政府做法貪污根本不對高鐵從民國76年就是解嚴那一年蔣經國開始大建設然後再開始經過幾年才合併合併下來以後到1999年開始動工"},{"start":8573.505,"end":8598.144,"text":"因為六號東延的時候那時候是李登輝時代然後完成時代2006,2006是阿美時期那時候馬英雄講了一句話,高鐵是廢鐵還在反對高鐵今天即便在民進黨史政時期二位曾志安還發了很多心事在議會裡面處理我們兩個反對,要把高鐵弄到蓋不起來"},{"start":8599.249,"end":8616.83,"text":"所以整個歷史大家看了,高鐵歷史是一個台灣,坦白講高鐵,今天台灣沒有高鐵的話,會變成怎麼樣?沒關係,就是講高鐵是不是廢鐵?2016要通車,後來又採改,後來又政治案,然後在2015"},{"start":8619.212,"end":8644.089,"text":"二零一五的時候,文黨來執政的時候,執政院長叫毛志國,他中央部長出身的,為了高鐵裁改在郵案,所有人都在反對,毛志國還到我公司,我說他想放棄,我說這怎麼可能放棄,是吧?後來我們執政以後,才把高鐵的這個裁改完成,我也感興那時候從"},{"start":8645.749,"end":8655.192,"text":"兩任董事長 包括現在的總經理 他們都很努力 董事長前面有潘志祥董事長能不能把這個延長時間 讓他延長時間有關於"},{"start":8664.643,"end":8688.922,"text":"一段時間還要完整也就是說讓這種好不容易高鐵路完成這是經過非常長的一條路所以這個明明有所謂的什麼民進黨在台灣民進黨是把它完成的不知道血稅也是一樣血稅是最困難的尤其我們時代完成兩個月血稅一個金融整治"},{"start":8689.602,"end":8715.879,"text":"那今天回到主題來講的話剛才兩位部長都談得很清楚那我們要談的就是說黃國昌當然講了有前面那一段我是有不同意見的他說草案想交給黨團協商以後一個月以後就可以表決那是70條定期那是定期表決70條之一回頭看68條的時候"},{"start":8718.36,"end":8732.495,"text":"有政治措施或是議案要協商措施回到院長來這已經這麼多年都是如此那黃委員的意思是說今天我們在院長主席查理商都不應該進行只是到FH表決這個是民主嗎"},{"start":8733.956,"end":8756.013,"text":"應該在這裡很多人每天都要大家都做一樣的事情怎麼今天講突然不一樣的話懷疑條例寫得很清楚這一點我倒是沒有辦法接受那當然我回到剛才講到黃榮光講到看起來他也反對反對這個違反這個宣言體制然後然後呢有"},{"start":8757.454,"end":8773.565,"text":"委員個人提案然後叫政府去做這樣的方式嘛那今天假如是這樣的方式當然很清楚我們現在回到的都是說潛力分立原則大家所託我希望我沒有誤解黃常委員的意思"},{"start":8775.227,"end":8775.707,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8790.786,"end":8817.325,"text":"你對花蓮的交通很關心,我們都能體會。但是呢,國家也會來照顧的。這幾年來,交通部在花蓮的交通上面,差不多將近要三千億了。有說要改、說要快,都要做了。當然你要在這三個三項,沒有那麼簡單。地質問題、環境、可行性都要評估。國家財政都要評估的。"},{"start":8819.251,"end":8847.07,"text":"謝謝柯總召發言接下來我們請國民黨團副坤吉總召發言這個謝謝院長今天我從頭到尾都沒提到任何人名但是我在這裡已經被N次提到人名這就是我們長期以來在委員會一直到草原協商的院長召集的協商所以本席一直在講我們是對事情在討論民進黨是對人在討論"},{"start":8848.789,"end":8848.929,"text":"主席"},{"start":8860.385,"end":8885.903,"text":"如果要編列特別預算、舉債的方式民眾黨表示說他們這個部分他們不能接受但是他們願意支持這個民生的建設交通建設必須要來推動我想這個部分就是真正的草野協商是要像這樣子提出的問題他的立場表達而不是完全把人家否定"},{"start":8886.806,"end":8910.945,"text":"而且不斷地人聲攻擊、謾罵等等我要再次強調今天到現在我沒有提任何人的姓名這就是為什麼未來我們要設立一個制度從委員會開始就一路對人聲攻擊一路攻擊所謂的要求發言不斷地repeat的發言就不斷地對人聲在攻擊"},{"start":8912.813,"end":8912.973,"text":"主席"},{"start":8939.645,"end":8956.61,"text":"主要的地方的民生建設的交通建設他們都表示支持我也謝謝我要再次的強調本席剛剛已經講了這麼多的例子我不曉得是聽不懂還是永遠叫不醒在過去立法院已經通過這麼多"},{"start":8958.343,"end":8986.693,"text":"委員當然是秉持民意在政府疏漏的部分疏漏的部分提出該有的建設而經過立法院國會通過以後當然要來執行所以過去不管是90年還是95年本席剛剛都已經講得非常清楚這個院會通過以後也都來執行特別強調有沒有貪污腐化"},{"start":8987.891,"end":9015.105,"text":"等國會聽證跟調查權正式國會無法通過了以後我想這個會做前面的清查到時候再來看有沒有這些事情我想社會大眾大家很多的疑慮到時候可以一目了然能夠大方光明還是要在這裡再提一次今天我要謝謝院長召集這個時間不過我們還是要強調一下今天我們是尊重民進黨"},{"start":9017.267,"end":9040.173,"text":"其實謝謝院長為了要協商我來找你很多次也在晚上在騷擾你很抱歉希望就趕快來召集因為依照2016年蘇嘉前院長主持的院會已經早就做過決議協商一個月期滿"},{"start":9043.038,"end":9048.063,"text":"如果無法達成共識就依立法院職權行事法71條1的規定處理在院會處理"},{"start":9052.724,"end":9075.418,"text":"當時在委員會的協商 民進黨拘捕出席所以草案協商是已經經過了一次應該可以送院會來處理但是我們還是基於審慎跟尊重民進黨的立場還是再請院長來召集協商絕對沒有什麼一分鐘還是十一分鐘我實在完全聽不懂這在委員會就討論了多少個小時"},{"start":9077.06,"end":9103.143,"text":"為什麼用這麼扭曲的話來對一個神聖的地方建設用這種戲謔的方式來講?這立法院都有錄音錄影委員會有沒有開過?有沒有詢答?這個答案都非常清楚的事情為什麼可以在這裡用這種扭曲的方式來進行?竹條!參議協商的時候竹條委員會的竹條有人參加嗎?民進黨拘捕出席讓你竹條為什麼不來呢?"},{"start":9104.96,"end":9122.598,"text":"院長 院長 著急的協商 這時候再來講 什麼一分鐘幾分鐘我覺得大家不要扭曲一個事實 立法院都有錄音錄影 都可以把當時的委員會的記錄可以調出來看的大家不要在這裡齁 過度的扭曲我還是要特別強調 為什麼要連線的問題"},{"start":9125.919,"end":9149.65,"text":"大家不斷在強調 四十年前 民國七十幾年 四十年前 台灣的技術 現在是民國幾年了四十年前 要搞十九年 那四十年後還要搞十九年嗎是不是我們的國家的效率就是這樣子所以 尤其缺德的時候 我們的政府應該與時俱進 但我們要特別強調一個重點"},{"start":9154.059,"end":9180.185,"text":"2008年5月20日國民黨執政經過了兩年八個月2011年1月29日蘇花改動工我再強調一次兩年八個月把所有程序全部走完兩年八個月動工其實蘇花改的動工就很明確有三段沒有做就是第二期蘇花改的二期當然民進黨取名叫蘇花安我們都同意"},{"start":9181.26,"end":9186.005,"text":"但是第一期動工是2011年民國100年1月29號動工但是到了2016年民國105年民進黨執政 到現在為止8年多了蘇花恩在哪裡 一個政府有效率嗎"},{"start":9202.984,"end":9231.775,"text":"國民黨兩年八個月 蘇華改動工 所有程序完成民進黨2016年到現在 蘇華安在哪裡再過來 花東快已經討論了這麼多次還要扯到輕軌 輕軌在台灣就不適合輕軌跟高鐵是何等大的差距 這個common sense啊台灣適不適合輕軌 高鐵已經出在這裡 已經很成功的案例在這裡"},{"start":9233.834,"end":9258.914,"text":"我們今天就是要講嘛政府的效力永遠比不上民間嘛所以民間來做BOT我們都很歡迎國內國際的BOT我們都很歡迎今天不是說來一個委員代表誰今天國土的平均發展本來就該做的建設到現在都還沒有做這不是一個國會議員該提出來的嗎不是應該在院會來做處理的嗎為什麼"},{"start":9263.973,"end":9291.869,"text":"我聽到今天最大的一個笑話五千億在花蓮我到現在在哪裡請民進黨政府明天公佈一下五千億在哪裡五千億在哪裡剛剛都有錄音錄影公佈一下五千兩百億在哪裡天方夜譚執政了八年了五千兩百億在哪裡在這裡不要信口雌黃嘛不要把這裡當秀場嘛嚴肅一點嘛"},{"start":9294.707,"end":9323.043,"text":"我到現在為止都沒有指名任何一個人我希望我們以後在這裡討論是對視對不對謝謝院長我們希望能夠搭理性討論沒有關係謝謝傅坤祺總召的發言接下來我們請吳世堯委員發言我先講一下然後洪牧可委員準備然後林思敏委員跟黃...院長我很早就提你剛剛發言完我已經念過發言次序了稍微等一下柯總統好不好請吳世堯委員我等一下"},{"start":9324.864,"end":9346.33,"text":"有換一機會吧謝謝主席跟副總操澄清一下今天之所以會多次提到您的名字因為您是這三大法案的提案人所以一定都會提到傅君祺委員的提案那也因為今天討論的是您所提的三大法案當然就會提到您過去的一些觀點"},{"start":9347.63,"end":9367.817,"text":"民主就是對事不對人,我們對事不對人不是因為提到名字,您就認為提到名字就是人身攻擊我想這是兩碼子事,我們在這裡都非常理性的對話,對事不對人,這是民主應當有的基本的氣度第二個呢,剛剛我所提的這個資料,就是"},{"start":9368.777,"end":9369.818,"text":"委員會中心主義委員會中心主義"},{"start":9387.117,"end":9405.943,"text":"在交通委員會審查不管是3月25號、4月1號或4月17號委員會的時候就是只花加總起來10分50秒來打包協商所以這個部分沒有扭曲、沒有戲謔完全就是就事論事歡迎去掉委員會的議事記錄跟相關的錄影帶"},{"start":9408.703,"end":9433.088,"text":"第三個呢我也要回應也非常支持肯定剛剛黃國昌總召民眾黨團的立場所以我終整黃國昌總召的立場跟剛剛行政部門的共同回應其實也就是民進黨團對於這三個法案長久以來的立場第一個是我們需要有完整的交通專業的評估"},{"start":9435.188,"end":9458.327,"text":"重大的建設一定要有完整的交通專業評估我想這是民進黨跟民眾黨以及行政部門的共識第二件事情這麼大的巨額的國家資源的投入必須要有非常縝密的財政紀律的財務評估所以這是民進黨跟民眾黨以及行政部門共同的共識"},{"start":9459.795,"end":9483.422,"text":"那第三個主張就是本人一直認為民進黨團認為這三個法案在憲法的精神下行政權跟立法權各司其職的這個辯論的這一個終點是我一直在這裡試圖論述的那這一點是我到目前也應當是說是民進黨團的強烈的主張要論述給社會聽不能違反憲法第70條"},{"start":9489.404,"end":9510.234,"text":"不能違法大法官釋字第613號以及391號但這個部分是我不曉得民眾黨剛剛是黃總召沒有提到也許黃總召也認同這個部分但至少我們兩個黨團跟行政部門共同對於財政紀律以及交通專案評估都認為在這三個法案上顯然都沒有辦法具足"},{"start":9510.954,"end":9525.702,"text":"所以我在這裡非常大膽的冒昧的也就是我要跟院長建議就是既然這個前提本身都各黨的意見跟提案的國民黨團可能都有很大的漢格所以這三個案子幾乎是沒有辦法"},{"start":9526.582,"end":9526.862,"text":"主席"},{"start":9542.771,"end":9557.808,"text":"所以我希望這樣子的良性對話是非常好的我們就是就法案論法案就制度論製度大家輕聲細語大家不用咆哮不用很激動我都非常同意今天是一個很好的示範"},{"start":9558.809,"end":9558.889,"text":"主席"},{"start":9578.726,"end":9595.048,"text":"兩個小時過去了我覺得今天的協商我感到非常的失望失望的是我們今天出席的代表其實早有心有定見根本不是來協商我們立法院職權行使法第十二章黨團協商第六十八條"},{"start":9597.243,"end":9620.228,"text":"開宗明義強調為了協商議案跟解決爭議事項院長來召開黨團協商但是兩個小時過去了看直播的朋友或是我們在場會議室裡面的人大家有真的認為說今天坐在這邊的代表有想要解決爭議事項嗎就是各持己見所以你說五分鐘"},{"start":9621.408,"end":9643.75,"text":"有人已經嗆名了,要講30次50次,那還是一樣沒有想要解決,只想要講別人講自己的立場。再者,一開始開宗明義就講,就說這個是違憲,那如果說是違憲,後來又講說不合理,那我們想要請真的好好的說清楚,到底你的論點是什麼?"},{"start":9644.651,"end":9662.463,"text":"如果是違憲的話抱歉我們在場沒有一個人是大法官沒有人有資格講出這樣的話那如果說是不合理請提出來讓他變合理這也是為什麼我一直強調說今天如果說大家沒有版本只是各說各話的話那當然你根本沒有心來協商"},{"start":9666.054,"end":9684.237,"text":"剛剛有委員提到我的名字我特別講2021年交通委員會我質詢王國才部長我問的是說因為王國才部長先在媒體上講說環島高鐵不是夢我特別質詢他說那請教你的夢要花多少錢王國才部長答不出來"},{"start":9684.958,"end":9704.076,"text":"所以我才會講 我說財政紀律當然很重要財政紀律以及相關的配套說是當然很重要如果說你今天只在媒體上面質詢 你在媒體上面回應你只講了一個夢 但是你講不出你的夢要講多少錢的話那我怎麼有辦法相信你有辦法 有責任 有能力 有其誠能夠把這個夢完成"},{"start":9706.298,"end":9724.498,"text":"所以到現在我還是一樣所有的質詢都在我的腦子裡面我不用看資料所以今天大家不是來這邊演講比賽我要的是能不能夠實質的討論院長我想我今天為什麼開宗明義其實到目前為止我們都還沒有進入到條文"},{"start":9724.918,"end":9738.878,"text":"所以說其實到現在是到底是我們在確定我們的協商的程序還是我們已經進入到實質的我也沒有辦法確認但為什麼規定時間非常重要因為我們才能夠聚焦才能夠對焦嘛如果說沒有辦法聚焦跟對焦的話剛剛我算過"},{"start":9741.547,"end":9770.626,"text":"民進黨委員有在他的三分鐘五分鐘發言裡面有講到違憲、預算、立法邏輯、黨團人數、歷史、民主進步、攝影機、限制人數、公糧收購他所有的主題包山包海全都在他的三分鐘五分鐘講出來了那我們怎麼有辦法聚焦所以本席很誠摯的建議如果說今天我們有心大家針對這個條文來做真真正正的協商"},{"start":9771.687,"end":9795.012,"text":"在這條文裡面其實也都寫得很清楚一定是要安全無虞一定要專業評估一定是要國家能夠永續的經營才去做這一些其實在條文裡面都有不要裝睡的人叫不醒不要自己沒看到就以為上面沒有那最後我只講如果說"},{"start":9796.34,"end":9796.42,"text":"主席"},{"start":9815.646,"end":9833.121,"text":"有委員剛剛也講到說昨天村里長跟民意代表條例八個小時馬拉松到最後可以結束我覺得我最有資格講這個話因為我是從頭做到尾我是堅持到最後一個在場所有委員沒有一位除了我"},{"start":9833.968,"end":9834.028,"text":"主席"},{"start":9852.302,"end":9863.133,"text":"那就是竹條的精神如果今天沒有版本只要各說各話的話主席我認為真的這樣的協商可以宣告一個時間我們就做後續議事規則處理謝謝"},{"start":9865.218,"end":9892.956,"text":"謝謝胡某凱委員發言 接下來我們請林思敏委員發言黃國昌委員請準備好 謝謝主席院長 我忽然不見了院長柯總長我先不要打岔那我想首先我們對這個院長就議事的安排就是說剛才院長所提的幾個未來黨團協商的幾個意見我想我們認為我們要尊重院長"},{"start":9894.363,"end":9922.86,"text":"我們原本的過去就是我們的協商的一個遊戲規則就只講只有三長能夠參加那今天院長又更開放的對於相關的預算案或者相關的重要的議事開放說有幾個委員經過我們黨團的同意就可以來參加我想我們絕對非常支持這個院長做這個非常用心的一個安排"},{"start":9924.261,"end":9942.248,"text":"第二,我對於今天的整個協商程序其實這三個重要的法案我們現在從頭到尾做了兩個多小時我們聽到民進黨的委員就是心中早有定見你們就是認為這是違憲違憲的條例所以你們認為說要進入竹條"},{"start":9948.237,"end":9964.029,"text":"阿你們也不願意阿我想協商的目的是最後要達成什麼樣的一個目的就是要解決我們雙方的一個爭議嘛到目前為止我們都沒有任何的交集如何能夠達成共識阿所以我想"},{"start":9969.008,"end":9984.168,"text":"院長,我想我一直坐在這裡為什麼不想講話,就是想說看到底民進黨的委員你們到底心中在想什麼這種已經有訂建對特別條例一直在主張這個是違憲這個是不可行"},{"start":9985.373,"end":10000.265,"text":"而不願意很認真的來看我們真的這幾個條例我們講的是什麼那你如果有爭議對幾個條文你提出來嘛而不是一味的一開始就否定說啊這違憲啊這不可行啊"},{"start":10001.621,"end":10001.761,"text":"請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":10024.1,"end":10050.643,"text":"最後的結論上我是贊成剛剛林思敏委員的建議因為各個黨團針對這個議案其實都表達了基本的立場之所以再次舉手簡單有三個要點加以說明第一個要點是說針對於立法院職權刑事法裡面剛剛我所提出來的觀點以及"},{"start":10051.644,"end":10069.178,"text":"我說過我上次黨團協商的時候有提出來針對一個月協商冷凍期以及在一個月內有召集過協商就可以依照立法院職權行事法交院會來處理這件事情我相信在議事規則上面"},{"start":10073.228,"end":10100.963,"text":"正常的理解是這個樣子當然有立委有提出不一樣的看法每個人都可以有自己的看法但我相信最後就有關於議事規則的解釋跟操作我們尊重院長跟秘書長這一邊的一個專業上面的判斷第二個事情是說粉黨團剛剛所表達的立場我解釋得非常"},{"start":10102.242,"end":10126.787,"text":"說得非常的清楚了那我就不要再附屬那我只是不希望不希望有人把你自己想講的話塞到別人的嘴巴這樣就不好了我講話應該條理還算蠻清楚的全程都錄音錄影簡單的說我們支持交通建設那但是我們不贊成"},{"start":10127.927,"end":10151.994,"text":"用特別預算的方式來加以處理那要遵守財政紀律要進行可行性的評估這大概是我們黨團會議基本上面的四個原則因此針對這個議案的處理我們會提出我們的修正動議在這邊先跟院長做一個報告以及說明那至於說就是說以"},{"start":10153.835,"end":10179.527,"text":"特別條例的方式來進行有關於相關的建設跟處理其實大概偏差以前我們曾經通過的特別條例行政部門他在特別條例裡面所提出的預算額在立法院審議之後因為立法院裡面不同的黨團他們提案的版本而使得最後的金額增加"},{"start":10180.947,"end":10204.728,"text":"這個其實例子所在多有我也不需要去複述了行政跟立法兩者之間的界限在什麼地方我相信過去有非常非常多的例子都可以來參作不要過去的時候什麼相關的操作都沒有提出違憲之說等到今天遇到了才突然跑出連違憲都跑出來了那當然"},{"start":10207.29,"end":10214.099,"text":"每個人有每個人自己的想法我們接下來最後就按照規則來處理"},{"start":10215.786,"end":10238.116,"text":"最後就是說因為今天我要特別感謝王部長在你任內的辛勞離開前夕還參加協商我先表示對你過去辛勞的感謝只不過說我覺得王部長您今天在面對環島高鐵這個議題上在歷史上面可能要比較負責任一點"},{"start":10239.517,"end":10255.763,"text":"我大概看了環島高鐵相關的討論環島高鐵不是夢真的是您說的甚至在行政院在立法院的時候我們的前行政院長蘇貞昌他也是大力的贊同"},{"start":10257.003,"end":10279.866,"text":"大力的支持認為您這個主意非常的好所以我覺得今天或者是你另外用時間就環島高鐵你自己當初的這整個的想法你的理念我們的前行政院院長蘇貞昌都這麼大力的挺你那你心裡面所規劃的要怎麼樣來加以進行我覺得"},{"start":10281.387,"end":10302.717,"text":"跟台灣社會做一個說明對您個人的歷史定位會有幫助最後我也非常感謝你在剛剛提例子的時候終於說出來當初汐止那個南下的閘道是我爭取的因為你們當初你們執政的時候你們交通部的做法其實讓我蠻難過的"},{"start":10304.398,"end":10312.385,"text":"因為等到你們真的通車要剪彩的時候我人已經不在立法院了嘛但是"},{"start":10314.156,"end":10333.676,"text":"算了啦,我覺得講戈大偉三個字就太沉重了不過沒有關係啦,謝謝你今天的肯定那跟院長報告的是就是說因為等一下還有事情我黨團的立場已經很清楚的表明了不過為了表示對院長的尊重我剛剛也特別委請我們的吳春城"},{"start":10334.477,"end":10338.338,"text":"王國昌委員的發言接下來我們請柯建民、柯總召繼續發言王國昌委員要走了柯總召打個岔王部長你要不要等一下補充一下說明還是不用"},{"start":10360.316,"end":10363.999,"text":"我沒有什麼心思,我非常尊重你"},{"start":10390.592,"end":10407.983,"text":"剛才特別講一段說民主可貴,你自己講的話,可以理性對話。我覺得今天大家都非常理性在對話。即便胡文煦委員的名字被提出來,我想都是很平和的講。但是我持謀論,胡文煦委員比較有動氣,但是還好,我們都可以接受。"},{"start":10409.163,"end":10437.155,"text":"黃中委員今天也沒有咆哮這個都很清楚今天大家認真在講但是有的人就是說他故意就是不聽講的話我們沒有關係民主就是如此我現在硬來回答因為黃中委員說了一話但是我還是要講當然到最後一定會表決那表決起來我們一定輸這個我們都認定但是我要把很多話講清楚這才是重點"},{"start":10438.459,"end":10466.132,"text":"通常委員還是在堅持就是說除了委員會以後黨團協商然後像有的人常常有各黨團都有不來的時刻我們也有 各黨都有因為大家都知道後面還有一個院長的草案協商才是一個final才是結束所以立法院並不存在之前新法院沒有這樣規定就是說委員會協商以後一個月以後就要表決"},{"start":10467.353,"end":10488.114,"text":"那職業新網68條就寫什麼呢?職業新網71條就寫什麼?對不對?過去是一個月以後定期表決,過去四個月,後來滿久改了一個月。那這個一整個職業新網請大家看看。然後假如說委員會協商,像昨天委員會協商黃國東協商委員辦,職業新網協商委員辦,他走了。"},{"start":10491.396,"end":10513.671,"text":"委員就說送給韓院長協商,這個也不對,不是說他走我們就不能協商,他走是方便他的潛力。那這樣子搞法的話,假如說,已經實質上是要沒收院長的潛力了。委員協商一個月以後,結果到院會表決,韓院長你這個位置坐得下去嗎?"},{"start":10514.912,"end":10536.722,"text":"也從游說漢院長到最後的樓西昆院長每一個人都遵守那這個老闆學長從哪裡來的呢?從1993年到1996年1999年因為立法院沒有遊戲規則所以游說漢院院長最大的功能是什麼?他最值得敬佩的地方在他任內到1999年1月12號"},{"start":10539.303,"end":10560.038,"text":"馬國衛無法已經立下來,就是我們今天在奉行的有許規則。但是整個民主實踐大家都是很認定,表決書就書,沒有什麼話講,但是要把話講清楚。所以黃國大委員他所講的說,他理解那以後就,院長你有沒有什麼功能啊?"},{"start":10561.249,"end":10579.507,"text":"你也不必在這裡採訪,人家都到院會直接就表決了。因為原來不是這樣,大家在這裡這麼久以來,包括福音崎委員、到黃國昌委員都曾經在這裡發言,楊瀕師妹也來過,何孟凱也來過,為什麼今天大家突然要把遊戲規改掉,把你的行李架空了?"},{"start":10582.001,"end":10598.317,"text":"那這個還走得下去嗎?那民主是結束啦!這是一個非常嚴肅的事情。變成從上次草野鄉、武漢、吳蘇遙、我們還沒從中介雄,一直在捍衛你院長的權益,這是一個非常嚴肅的事情。這第一點我真的有訪問張委員所談的。"},{"start":10601.636,"end":10605.6,"text":"但是他講說他要提對案,他從口中裡面不講出違憲兩個字,我不知道他在講什麼。"},{"start":10614.318,"end":10634.485,"text":"他絕對贊成用行政部門來編列預算,把這個行政部門編列預算。這要提對案,那就是說他要把這個寫在法條裡面嘛。寫在法條裡面就是你從特別預算再去規定行政,要求行政部門要怎麼做,那當然是違憲啦。各位,新聞70條。"},{"start":10636.783,"end":10653.217,"text":"繞環4-264-391-585-520-613"},{"start":10653.755,"end":10670.269,"text":"我們任何一個當立法委員都要很正確的有基本的憲法及公法的知識否則的話你哪一本都沒有用哪一本都沒有用違憲的部分就是違憲請看完以後我們這幾個剛才我們講的幾個大方式是包括"},{"start":10676.314,"end":10700.911,"text":"憲法規定、立法院之前的規定、行政院院長之前的規定,看完以後,我們可能比較能夠順利走下去。至少你看憲法政策條例第3條就好了。總統那名行政院院長來立法院被刑以作私人報告。他有行政院院長有這個職責。立法院是要執行之前。"},{"start":10702.472,"end":10729.244,"text":"然後立法委員：憲法長對立法委員在立法三條看得很清楚是議決嘛 議決法律案、預算案等案嘛這些都憲法長都規定很清楚然後你說我們有訂建我們不是有訂建 是你有訂建我希望說你回去今天我們結案到這裡要表決然後我希望把話講清楚再來表決"},{"start":10730.504,"end":10756.641,"text":"你也不要急,反正你要這麼表決,我們一定輸。當然事後違憲,當然有事先程序,但是有事後違憲,道理之名沒有關係,你也是如法律的,你也是同樣的反對違憲的,你說這合憲性,沒有關係,大家回去看清楚。黃國昌也是一樣,他那個沒有違憲性。講了半天,我不知道黃國昌的主張是什麼?"},{"start":10758.902,"end":10786.173,"text":"這一點我要很清楚告訴各位另外就是說我去委員主要說是華人三將也不是五將也不要誤解我們沒有的事情喔那林志明委員我們都是心無限時的武漾甘納橋你應該贊成吧2015年的時候我對行政院提案希望行政院能夠蓋武漾甘納橋那時候行政院長是誰是馬文志國那年我要飛機先機"},{"start":10787.694,"end":10814.859,"text":"老實說很清楚,在M1跟我們講得很清楚,很講得很清楚,就連高雅橋都很重要,他們能夠支持。然後對於新湖縣市,所有的縣市都趕在此一路,那個也要解決,交通問題要解決,如果罵土地解決的話,我幹兩條橋都無所謂。但是我們都是用建議的,我也沒有弄一個特別一項要求行政政策,我知道那是違憲的。"},{"start":10816.337,"end":10839.042,"text":"五合二橋從2015我去選舉到現在走了八年經過肯定評估、反評三個月才定案都還沒開始施工所以我們今天講你環島高鐵乃至於你的速發快你要從這個整個公法上的理論包括整個行政作為上面幫立法院能夠做什麼事情大家去看清楚"},{"start":10840.382,"end":10859.944,"text":"十年要完成所謂花東快十年要完成環島高鐵環島高鐵也可以 它有秘密條例也可以 也可以啊 像環資商的時候可以啊並不是你那種特別條例叫政府要多少都有完成那你就徹底剝奪了行政權啊 這很清楚吧"},{"start":10861.045,"end":10881.42,"text":"市民委員你是不是法律人呢?那吳文綺他不是法律人,他可以怎麼講我們可以接受至少你是法律人,黃國昌也是法律人所以剛才吳文綺講了一句話我們兩個人不可以坐在這裏不講話他台灣弄什麼輕軌,這是高鐵"},{"start":10885.581,"end":10901.129,"text":"臺北縣、新北市有沒有輕軌?我們現在你日間在新竹、竹北之間有輕軌,你有贊成嗎?所有人都贊成嗎?所以我們講的就是說,你有沒有人對於預算、對於政策有建議權?"},{"start":10902.75,"end":10916.697,"text":"主被動的關係大家搞清楚主動性是在行政部門被動我們是能夠監督我們是督促這是潛力分離原則道理致命的所以我今天我很遺憾就是說"},{"start":10918.098,"end":10944.545,"text":"我們講了半天,當然也許各位覺得我們講的很適合或是覺得不夠明白我希望今天回去大家把所有大部分事件人,幾個事件人全看五六零、五八五、六一三、二六四、三九一那個文字大部分事件文字雖然有一點但你看結論就知道,你好好看一遍"},{"start":10945.405,"end":10956.279,"text":"尤其是把我思維的領銜在立法院、到憲法院去實現的,是出來增加危險。我們在立法院的時間,大家總是在為國家做事。"},{"start":10960.684,"end":10976.584,"text":"三十年我在這個場域裡面從一個完全陌生的環境到我會花很多時間去研究法案以及憲政體制的關係以及國家應該如何進步這是我們的職責今天在歷史關鍵時刻我不希望"},{"start":10978.105,"end":10998.874,"text":"我們立法院、然後大家不管現在的體制尤其未來要談的就是所謂的立法院執政新法、行使法有沒有扣錢、有沒有違憲,都是應該好好討論這是民主在一個非常危險的今天變形上面我希望、我希望院長"},{"start":11000.254,"end":11019.244,"text":"再讓他們回去看看法律,當然憲法條文跟事件文在論也沒有關係,到最後表決我們一定輸,我們認的。但是我們要好好講清楚,我們希望有對話空間,因為我們講的,連法律人都在否定我們,我都覺得很奇怪。"},{"start":11019.924,"end":11043.254,"text":"因為黃國昌委員走了我很遺憾他是法學博士我當然很希望跟他執求對決跟他好好辯論但是呢很遺憾他又走了我希望只有今天協商不管怎麼樣我們就在這裡執求對決了院長我知道你一直有理由困難"},{"start":11045.316,"end":11060.114,"text":"沒有困難當事你今天所提的有些觀念我是能夠接受但是我們稍微謹慎一下我們今天協商似乎不會有那個結論但是請各位回去看完了事先文以後看完憲法以後當然憲法只是那幾條而已"},{"start":11061.395,"end":11074.803,"text":"那你只要去看政策條例第三條所以這看完我們再好好討論可能也比較適合一些不要就這樣來表決表決你們會贏那贏的表決我有憲法其實目前也無法執行啊"},{"start":11080.646,"end":11085.752,"text":"我希望大家都有歷史上的責任,也不要說你要紅包裝夾起來,什麼事情都可以做。"},{"start":11097.746,"end":11122.705,"text":"在這個提案的原因不是有所不盡是因為隱釋這個法案的提案人我們這個法案我們包括環島高鐵、經濟委員會、財政委員會都沒有來類似都沒有來參加所以剛才院長所提的一些東西我們應該好好再來討論以上我是很誠懇表示這意見雖然我知道韓院長你今天算很熱鬧來感謝"},{"start":11126.141,"end":11143.993,"text":"我特別跟柯總召補充報告一下剛才我的意思是說您發言完畢因為多次提到交通部王部長我擔心他有心裡的話要講一些所以我才特別結果你不是不是結果你誤會了我說我在玩什麼遊戲不是的我是覺得行政官坐在這邊"},{"start":11145.054,"end":11159.555,"text":"多次被委員提到他一定也想有一些話要表達所以我說你發言完我們請王國財部長補充說明我想我應該沒有處理錯吧所以你怎麼 我說你先知道我講錯話我跟妳抱歉但是我常常被安排到"},{"start":11160.516,"end":11165.44,"text":"王部長今天幫他在任 王部長大概在一個禮拜以後 下禮拜二會大家能夠畢業典禮所以應該要好好講 王部長你請你講一個鐘頭"},{"start":11176.73,"end":11179.351,"text":"我只是要跟你澄清,你發言完我請交通部王部長補充,結果你一直說我在玩什麼把戲,我再跟你講一下,我們請王部長補充說明"},{"start":11197.063,"end":11225.8,"text":"我覺得環島高速鐵路因為從我的專業來看必須有前瞻性所以我覺得環島高速鐵路它跟台鐵會來互補還有互為備援所以對於東部也很重要但是我當時是提說要逐段完成不是一次所以現在我是覺得我們現在南沿屏東另外一個到宜蘭有三個可行性報告要做第一個就是屏東、潮州、台東"},{"start":11227.022,"end":11227.543,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11240.629,"end":11257.559,"text":"有提到就是潮州要到台東要繞過大武山,所以也有路廊的課題。所以我是覺得這個部分是至少我當部長還有包括蘇院長的共識是可以逐段來完成。但是我"},{"start":11258.459,"end":11261.682,"text":"謝謝王部長,非常負責任的說明,非常感謝接下來高副主委有什麼要補充的沒有?"},{"start":11277.312,"end":11279.433,"text":"我想邀請主席表達對於協商秩序的維護"},{"start":11304.759,"end":11324.439,"text":"副坤祺總召在協商的時候是在戴耳機的,我不知道他是在聽音樂還是什麼,因為這樣子大家的對話,他這樣充耳不聞,這樣是不好的,也不尊重在場的委員跟官員的說明。他現在也離場,但他剛剛就是戴著耳機,我覺得這樣不好,因為我們都想要互相論述,互相對話。"},{"start":11326.421,"end":11349.434,"text":"黃國昌總召現在是去上節目了,我也覺得立委的職責就是這麼重要的法案,應該坐在這裡審查完,當然有我們吳淳澄委員來代理。那我覺得回到我三個點,第一個回應一下剛剛洪孟凱委員說的,今天如果在這裡有既定的看法,這沒有錯啊,因為"},{"start":11350.703,"end":11364.218,"text":"對就是對不對就是不對對於任何政策的立場這個沒有模糊的地帶那您剛在問哪裡不合憲哪裡不合理我都已經把法條說給您聽了不合憲有憲法第七十條大法官釋字613號"},{"start":11365.8,"end":11385.745,"text":"施字391,我再一次說明,那不合理的部分呢,剛剛行政部門也多次的說明了,交通評估、專業的評估以及財務的試算的評估,還有用特別預算的方式也不合宜,所以這就是不合理的地方。所以我再一次說明,今天坐在這裡,各黨團當然會有他的政策觀點。"},{"start":11388.174,"end":11415.389,"text":"第二 因為黃國昌總召離場了 我可能要說給吳村城委員聽因為剛剛民眾黨的立場是說黃國昌總召說得很清楚 不支持特別預算也認為建設不能夠違反財政紀律 也一定要進行可行性評估那如果這樣的話 那這個法案明天如果表決 是不可以支持的呀"},{"start":11416.431,"end":11432.904,"text":"因為如果明天在表決的過程剛剛講的樣樣像像黃總統都講得很好聽這個不支持這個不支持所以我要說的是如果不支持我們原則方向是一樣的不支持那就不要在明天的表決裡頭又放水了"},{"start":11433.504,"end":11455.771,"text":"或者是說要提對岸但對岸可能又是一種放水的手段如果這樣的話我覺得這個跟黃總召剛剛所說的幾大原則可能會有很大的漢格所以這種兩手的策略說得好聽做的是另一套我是認為其其於不可所以春城大哥您是可以對話的人我要把這樣子的訊息轉達給您聽因為社會都在觀察"},{"start":11459.693,"end":11485.713,"text":"黃總召說的不可支持的理由ABCD四個原則可是明天如果表決又支持了我覺得這樣可能比較難以交代第三件事情我想基於立法委員的職權我們行政立法互有分工如果就這個議案上一個立委可以行使的權利是什麼很可惜我現在要講副總召又離開了我真的很想說給他聽希望他有看直播不是聽耳機而已"},{"start":11487.094,"end":11509.809,"text":"立委可以行使的叫做預算的建議權,對不對?我們可以在委員會提案,可以在院會提案,也可以在審查預算的時候做出預算的提案的建議。這是立法委員賦予,憲法賦予給我們的立法委員問政的工具跟手段。我想私民委員都認同。"},{"start":11510.709,"end":11526.899,"text":"所以這就是立委對於一個預算的建議案這是我們合憲可以行使的所以不是逾越了行政權自己用一個特別條例的立法來要求行政部門編列什麼預算這完全就是不合憲"},{"start":11528.24,"end":11551.056,"text":"所以立法委員可以善用的預算建議權我作為立委雖然只有九年的時間但是我推動教育部的新宿舍運動我也是透過我的質詢透過預算的建議權然後要求行政部門去做我爭取文化部的文化禮金也是透過我的建議權透過質詢提案然後行政部門就可以做"},{"start":11551.916,"end":11579.565,"text":"這個是走正道的一個方法立法行政互有分工我也要回應剛剛有委員提到說過去的基隆河整治條例也是特別條例沒有錯因為它是特別條例它是一個area的一個河川的整治基隆河的整治水域的整治的特別條例是馬一九執政的時候陳水扁執政的時候都有提過它是一個擴大區域而不是單一建設"},{"start":11581.215,"end":11589.292,"text":"所以把過去的法制面、經驗面都講清楚可以就是可以,不可以就是不可以在憲法的原則下"},{"start":11591.175,"end":11591.295,"text":"主席"},{"start":11617.784,"end":11641.485,"text":"這個條文不像國民黨講的說我連看都不看我每一個條文都看第二個我的重點是不要想到什麼做什麼尤其是重大的一個交通的一個建設也不要去外行再去領導內行那把國發會來變成一個主責的機關這個我更反對這個會笑死人尤其是各位去把它想想看"},{"start":11643.57,"end":11660.78,"text":"過去的交通建設裏面,你說像我們這種農業線的,尤其是最南端的過去政府在縱北傾南的,我個人就絕對不會去反對建設,我在民進黨團也不會去反對建設,但是用這樣的一個方式,我就反對。"},{"start":11664.301,"end":11670.022,"text":"我認為應該是,剛剛王部長所講的,用個案去做一個推動,叫不來啦。該做可行性評估就要去做可行性評估啦。譬如說我剛剛所提到的,這個高鐵就不會從高雄直接跳到台東啦。沒有到我屏東來,不會到台東啦。那應該去個案去把它做一個推動啦。"},{"start":11690.967,"end":11703.155,"text":"那你如果說去講到整個公路建設的部分我想這個部分更應該借助於行政部門的專業要經過幾個縱股要經過幾個原民部落可行性評估裡面還要再去做環評這些都不能去省略了我最後舉個例子我們本來一直在講說我上次在質詢"},{"start":11717.964,"end":11725.726,"text":"高鐵到南延到屏東我質詢毛志國的時候我還記得很清楚我說日本都已經在用磁幅列車了我們還在高鐵結果現在日本他從品川到名古屋這一段他因為在靜岡縣環境影響評估而沒有辦法去做一個開工也就是說本來2027年他的磁幅列車預期就要開通了"},{"start":11747.473,"end":11766.09,"text":"現在整個建設停下來那我的想法就很簡單啦你這個環評的部分你前面的部分你都不先去做然後就先框定說你幾年報告給完成不通啦 甚思啦民眾黨提到的那個財政紀律我就覺得就很像樣啦這個我相信各個政黨裡面都必須要去堅持啦"},{"start":11771.693,"end":11794.945,"text":"剛才提到明天就是因為明天要表決所以今天我們才要協商希望協商大家有一個結果出來有一個圓滿的大家各個三個政黨大家可以找到一個方向"},{"start":11796.486,"end":11809.979,"text":"最重要一點是這三件事情環島高鐵、花東快速道路、國道六號東延花蓮這是東部發展的問題我不曉得這三件事情到底該不該做"},{"start":11811.275,"end":11836.797,"text":"該不該做以民眾黨的立場覺得該做那怎麼做再說嘛就是該做我們要對我們東部的發展該做但是呢民眾黨的立場當然該做但是可行性評估這個不是我們立法院能夠評估我們在場我們幾個三黨我們怎麼評估這當然行政部門要評估嘛然後當然國家財政"},{"start":11838.018,"end":11855.728,"text":"的考量嘛 這都是民眾黨主張務實理性科學嘛 這一定是要做的嘛 但是呢我還是講就是國民黨的版本太急切 很急切 但是可以討論用心是好的 用心是好嘛 為東部發展嘛"},{"start":11857.544,"end":11884.495,"text":"對,但是呢,方法我們就是協商就是要來討論這事情嘛但是我看了民進黨我們今天的開會喔就從頭到尾就我阻擋批判啦我想這是國人在透過這個鏡頭當中看到了那所以我們一事無成嘛,我們花了好長的時間喔那對柯總召我真的非常的佩服喔你這種講功夠的功力喔,這個可以沒樣事情喔"},{"start":11887.682,"end":11892.434,"text":"其實聽起來是蠻有趣的但是不一定有道理"},{"start":11894.369,"end":11921.155,"text":"但是你還是說不清楚你發言大概快占到我們一半的時間但是我還是沒有得到一個到底這三件事情該不該做所以我覺得就是說我們還是要對整個東部發展這個是何等重大的事情當然你不能太匆忙那應該要開個國事會議大家來好好討論我們的東部發展好不好"},{"start":11924.787,"end":11927.311,"text":"謝謝吳春成委員 我們不是一事無成 我們還有吳春成"},{"start":11929.433,"end":11956.742,"text":"各位黨團幹部,麻煩簡短二樣不是啦,很多人都針對我,當然我這樣才輕易問起,我也必須回答但我也很希望,我們能夠有一個很好的對焦的講法該不該做?沒有人敢說不該做這都很簡單的,就是花園要發展,要有一個安全路,沒有人能否定但是要如何做?"},{"start":11957.851,"end":11976.965,"text":"這是一個問題,國家財政紀律的問題,所以今天委員長我今天講一下,我今天一直在講不願期待的講就是說民運黨的黃國昌,他繞了半天在包牌講他財政紀律,然後他說要提案,我不知道他怎麼去提這個案子"},{"start":11977.685,"end":12003.335,"text":"他沒有辦法正視到核心問題就是在憲法上面的規範所以今天我在這裡講我們每一個人都要向憲法低頭這是一個憲政時刻這是非常嚴肅的我們在立法院 任何一個立法委員 乃至於官員只要沒有憲法去官法的觀念的話你做出任何違憲的判決的處理那就都不會通嘛"},{"start":12003.915,"end":12003.995,"text":"主席"},{"start":12023.89,"end":12049.304,"text":"執行局是我的問題所謂的藐視國會罪很多事情各位官員包括在民營大家離開了他們藐視國會罪黃部長好他們藐視國會罪好成立的時候他跟你拍拖的時候說你不可以講違憲要不然藐視國會罪你三年徒刑所以很多很嚴肅的事情院長我最後要講說我剛才一直跑去趕跟你講"},{"start":12050.799,"end":12067.549,"text":"我只要跟大家講,不應該明天表決,就沒有所謂明天表決的問題,也跟法務院開講,法務院跟法務院講,法務院跟民事院講,我說你,我們下一次針對憲法上的問題,我們來好好針對憲法。那我七條,七條要寫到幾年,那五條八條寫到幾年,五條九條寫到幾年。"},{"start":12072.072,"end":12098.055,"text":"有三條怎麼規定?這些條文怎麼規定?大方幾個市縣?很清楚,五八五二零、六一三、二六四、三一九。大家回去看完的時候,我們對憲法上面的規定,我們先有一個基本的對焦,否則的話,表決,一定會贏,但是贏也不好。維修中心怎麼叫行政部門去執行呢?那以後大家,"},{"start":12099.216,"end":12117.068,"text":"請起校友,婦女可以提兩兆,我也可以提一兆,林士民讓桃竹苗那裡衝著,有三兆也不行。這行政權就要交出來,這責任真正在哪裡?所以這個事很嚴肅,大家要面對這個問題。不是說我今天反對什麼建設,所有建設我都贊成。"},{"start":12118.149,"end":12145.878,"text":"更加有錢可以去幹很多建設,讓人民便捷、安全,這個是理所當然的,天經地義的,對不對?好不好?所以今天,院長,你是在歷史時刻的時候,你要有所堅持、有所理想,並不是在所謂哪一個人的指揮下,我相信你是一個我們都走過同一時代的人,我跟你講過一句話,我們都到頂了,"},{"start":12147.647,"end":12158.395,"text":"我這一切做完也要到老闆鄉我希望我們生命移民最成熟的時候也做國家這是我們共同的期待好不好"},{"start":12159.314,"end":12183.03,"text":"謝謝總召很感性的一段讓我想到林爵銘與七爵別書謝謝我再一次謝謝我們列席的總統國防部長還有防護組委謝謝列席的官員也謝謝各位黨團幹部開了兩個半小時我們做下面的結論各黨團對本次研商相關法案均已充分發言本次會議到此為止現在散會再一次感謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}