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最後一件的解凍案都在11月或12月我想 國家容不得這樣的一個拖延所以我有一句話 山多少 國家的建設就撿多少解凍慢多久 國家的發展就慢多久其實到11月解凍 這預算等於沒有了啦你知道"},{"start":470.987,"end":483.253,"text":"共軍燒了我們的ADIZ我們的空軍飛行員跑到頭五分鐘待命拉上去之後還要準備第二波就有料凍結30%但要凍結30%怎麼會這樣對自己國家的軍人呢中國增加軍費到八兆台幣"},{"start":491.277,"end":505.043,"text":"今年度他們還增加7.2%就我們自己把30%彈藥 油料以及相關的船艦各方面都把它凍結起來而且解凍的條件如此之嚴苛我們再看一個例子下一個"},{"start":507.148,"end":533.153,"text":"像民雄 我都不知道自己人哪裡得罪了藍白 我也不知道無人機的發展對我們的經貿產業鼓勵人剛從美國述職回來他去川普 他不用回去喔他是不用回華府報到卻被川普政府叫回去去了解美國政府現在最新對台政策回到台灣裡面有一項希望建立非紅無人機供應鏈結果我們無人機的園區被凍結50%"},{"start":538.156,"end":554.024,"text":"這個在籌備階段給它凍結另外還有一個案子 下一個像我們相關的零附件保修凍結10%那個顧部長我們的保修跟零附件其實原來的預算就不太夠了現在要凍結10%對軍中產生什麼影響對 這個凍結10%高達76.4億元這個非常不利 76億 76億點4億元這個金額"},{"start":566.636,"end":587.816,"text":"很明顯的就是說我們各型的機艦、戰甲、炮車等主要裝備都要進行維保跟妥善不然的話會影響整個部隊的戰演性任務你這個零附件裡面其實還包含了我們現在要提升國軍因為每一個軍人弟兄姊妹都是我們所珍惜的他的抗彈版在這裡面"},{"start":589.011,"end":602.139,"text":"你也把它弄掉10%那這抗彈板面對共軍換磚6.8厘米的我們也在提升防護力所以這些東西是可以討論的需不需要該怎麼做現在沒有就把你通通凍起來我們再看下一個潛艦部長你好好說明一下我們的海昆號潛艦後續艦的籌劃的20億被凍結50%"},{"start":615.564,"end":643.029,"text":"這一個我們潛艦要能夠造成功國外願意冒著中共制裁經濟制裁的風險提供相關的裝備跟技術協助這是很重要的我們自己國內的廠商的合作意願這是重要的我們過去幾年來在台船跟海軍訓練的專業人才能夠留下來這是重要的這個凍結50%就部長了解它產生什麼樣的負面影響跟委員報告"},{"start":645.421,"end":658.535,"text":"這個潛艦預算主要是我們九月才能夠完成海上的測試那如果完成海上測試之後按照我之前的承諾就是說等海上測試以後我們就凍職可是它現在凍結之後要經過院會的專報"},{"start":662.349,"end":685.239,"text":"院會的專報那如果沒有辦法排入院會的專報的話他就沒有辦法順利解凍那後續建的計畫的節點包括這個裝備合約會的繳付或者是國外政府的輸出許可降低廠商的合作意願流失這個一些造建的專業人才等等就會衝擊到後續建的一個建造他產生的影響"},{"start":687.067,"end":706.475,"text":"有一個是往後延取得時間往後延還有一種可能性如果這些輸出許可沒有了搞不好後續間就沒有了有沒有這個風險如果我們沒有辦法順利解凍的話確實會有因為我們這個整個潛艦的這個水下的海"},{"start":707.583,"end":721.925,"text":"SAT的測試是要到下半年那下半年如果過了那我們希望馬上就順利解凍的話那當然就可以支應那這個這一個國外的廠商他會看到這樣子的一個解凍"},{"start":722.619,"end":722.779,"text":"台灣遇到的威脅"},{"start":744.619,"end":767.785,"text":"別人何必人家犯不著為了你冒風險如果你自己都不確定那我們不是說預算不該監督你就把它通過之後帶SAT通過我們來處理現在又綁定在院會其實困難度相當高我有一個總的統計數字那個各家算法不一樣但根據剛才我們國防部的公務預算"},{"start":769.48,"end":776.567,"text":"編了4760億 簡列84億 凍結899億加起來的話 三家凍的比例高達20.67%這也就是為什麼美國軍事委員會在審查COBI也就是美國負責政策的副部長的聽證會"},{"start":791.26,"end":802.521,"text":"不管是蘇利文或者其他的參議員他提出的關係而且他們這次點得很清楚甚至包含帕廷吉爾 博明來到立法院拜會的時候"},{"start":803.632,"end":827.037,"text":"他這個是有授權說可以說出來的他也在關心說不要再講你動多少撿多少當你做了動作把台灣國家安全預算往下一壓釋放給在華府川普的新任官員只有得到一個印象你台灣根本不重視自己的安全你都不重視我為什麼對你的關心要超過你自己甚至於不排除有些人把他壓低"},{"start":829.124,"end":855.922,"text":"是樂見於台灣人民被北京所管理這是很嚴重的訊號當時像Partinger也好或者Sullivan也好他用的是emergency他說這是一個緊急狀態台灣各界必須重視而Sullivan在聽證會的時候還特別說台灣有人看到他這一段聽證請轉述不要再玩這種危險的遊戲所以我最後這個問題要請教那個院長"},{"start":857.386,"end":879.197,"text":"以現在總預算這樣遇到的狀況追加啊解凍啊這樣就可以改革啦你做院長的知識現在藍白提出的解決方案能解決這問題嗎如果真的誠心誠意讓國家按部就班的走向一個發展而且跟世界接軌的路就盡快的能夠讓預算如數的如期的執行"},{"start":880.56,"end":908.155,"text":"追加或是用其他的方式都耗費時日如果能夠通過附議案重新協商再一次我想很短的時間就可以了你都知道應該要追加了你為什麼不把原始預算處理好嘛是你都講要追加了你就知道這有算有問題啊那這不是面子問題這國家跟人民的利益問題你都認為說你就辦追加嘛我幫你追加那你原始預算我們透過附議好好把它處理也就是"},{"start":908.855,"end":909.075,"text":"謝謝王委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":761,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（11時8分）謝謝副院長，麻煩請院長還有國防部長。"],["主席：請卓院長還有國防部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝王委員，王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：院長、部長，大家辛苦了。我想這一次立法院在總預算這樣子的處理方式是史無前例，在場不分任何政黨，我們從來沒有看到總預算審完一個多月，總預算審竣報告書寫不出來，寫出來的內容竟然沒有數字；然後對國家來講，我們臺灣每一個人都能夠在這一次藍白合作、癱瘓政府運作當中，找到自己受害的位置。坦白講，這個已經不是黨派的問題，這已經是國家遇到的困境。本席今天就國防預算受到的傷害跟影響來就教於兩位。","我們看一下國防預算減列的部分，部長，我們被減列了八十四億四千多萬嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：總共有15個案子。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：你可不可以概述一下這些減列案對我們國防運作上，還有對盟友之間，有沒有產生什麼樣的影響？"],["顧部長立雄：我舉其中最關鍵的就是，因為過去的統刪之後都可以……"],["王委員定宇：我這邊有一個表……"],["顧部長立雄：有一個科目自行可以調整，現在最重要的就是現在有「不得流用」，這個不得流用其中有一個國外旅費跟出國教育訓練費用刪減了15%，也就是2.4億元，這樣子的幅度會影響到我們的新式武器裝備換裝所需要的接裝訓練……"],["王委員定宇：我是覺得我們可以用讓民眾了解的狀況，國防部公務預算不含基金、不含每年特別預算的分攤，編列了4,760億，減列的部分：軍事裝備及設施預算減列51億（占3%），這個會影響到我們武器系統建軍的規劃、機艦、裝甲車等零附件的籌補，這時候老舊裝備的換裝、更新會受這個影響，我們軍人的新式步槍是不是在這裡面？"],["顧部長立雄：是，這個部分我們事實上在之前提給行政院就已經提過了，就如委員所講的，確實會無法滿足老舊裝備更新、汰除及裝備上的維保……"],["王委員定宇：也包括T112步槍要換裝嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：對，這些零附件的籌補是相當地重要。"],["王委員定宇：好。另外，一般事務費跟水電費刪減了16.7億，這個對於不管是戰備訓練、基本維持等會有影響。另外，戰備工程、國外差旅費，像國外差旅費整個刪減掉2億，砍掉了15%，這個影響到我們到國外的交流跟接裝。我們從去年開始，每年兩個聯兵營到美國受訓，我們的F-16V開始要進行接裝，部長，可不可以就這個項目說明有關出國費用被減列了2億造成的傷害跟影響？"],["顧部長立雄：我覺得最主要就是，因為有很多在野黨的委員一直說他刪的幅度沒有很大，但是問題是除了剛剛院長報告對很多機關有針對性的刪減之外，就這個部分，最重要他又加了4個字，就是「不得流用」，也就是說，它本身…………"],["王委員定宇：你沒辦法去截長補短。"],["顧部長立雄：我沒有辦法自行調整科目，所以這樣子的話，整個金額是高達2.4億元，高達2.4億元之後，剛剛已經提到了新式的武器我們本來就一定要到美國去接裝訓練，這個會有影響。更重要的是，我們赴國外協訓所需要的金額，我們會有一定的要求，我們現在已經逐漸要達到一定的規模……"],["王委員定宇：院長跟部長在這裡……"],["顧部長立雄：跟射擊所需要的訓練。"],["王委員定宇：這個事情影響很大，不管海馬士，我們要派人去受訓；F-16V新的相關裝備也要派人去受訓；我們的聯兵營要去受訓，這個費用砍掉了，還不讓你流用，也就是說沒有就沒有了。相對地，盟友得到的訊息是，連接裝、換裝、訓練等各方面，你的錢都砍掉，如果作為你的朋友，我還要來幫你的忙？臺灣的事就是人家的事，結果臺灣自己當作沒事，這樣會出事啊！"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：我可能要跑快一點，因為時間的關係。剛才是刪減的部分，我們再看一下凍結的部分，4,760億的國防公務預算凍結有279案，合計凍結899億4,000萬元，這個大概是史上最高了啦！我們來看細項，這個預算的凍結裡面，我特別注意到有一個是有關油料、彈藥籌補凍結了30%嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以這個部分是不是請部長或院長說明清楚，就是看起來好像是業務費凍結了30%，現在國防部的運作是等到這70%用完了，最後剩3個月再來解凍，還是從現在開始就只能動支70%，是不是請部長說明一下？"],["顧部長立雄：他應該有一個條件就是要到達一定的解凍條件才可以。另外就是說，因為這個部分會涉及到整個作業維持，就是我們零附件、各式彈藥的訓練經費，還有軍事投資，包括陸軍的人攜式短程防空飛彈、高效能反裝甲飛彈、攻擊的無人機、海軍的新一代輕型巡防艦第二階段原型艦的籌建、康定級系統的性能升級，還有空軍的新式高教機，以及愛二性能的提升。"],["王委員定宇：我們拉法葉的升級也在這裡面嘛。"],["顧部長立雄：對，還有採購愛三，以及高高空無人機等等。這些主要的問題是在於，過去都是委員會書面報告後就可以解凍，但現在30%的業務費部分是要到院會做報告之後，經院會同意才能解凍。"],["王委員定宇：我請教院長，所謂院會……他們說我只有凍結而已嘛，你不夠的拿來嘛，我們院會再解凍嘛。但我們在立法院就知道院會一年開幾次，這個解凍的困難度是不是請院長說明一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：這次的凍結金額，雖然大院是沒有宣布，我們自己把它調算出來，我們是算出整個決議案過程是一千三百多億，但其中很多是到院會，我想金額是比以前多，程序是比以前難。如果都到院會來解凍的話，我剛剛已經報告過了，過去從98年到113年，有90%的案子最後一件的解凍案都在11月或12月，我想……"],["王委員定宇：預算就要結束了……"],["卓院長榮泰：我想國家容不得這樣的拖延。所以我講一句話：刪多少，國家的建設就減多少；解凍慢多久，國家的發展就慢多久。"],["王委員定宇：其實到11月解凍，這預算等於沒有了啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["王委員定宇：你知道共軍騷擾我們的ADIZ，我們的空軍飛行員跑道頭5分鐘待命，拉上去之後還要準備第二波，結果油料凍結30%、彈藥凍結30%，怎麼會這樣對自己國家的軍人呢？中國增加軍費到8兆臺幣，今年度還增加7.2%，結果我們自己把30%彈藥、油料以及相關的船艦、各方面都凍結起來，而且解凍的條件如此之嚴苛！","我們再看一個例子，像民雄，我就不知道嘉義人哪裡得罪了藍白？我也不知道無人機的發展對我們的經貿產業……谷立言剛從美國述職回來，他不用回去，他是不用回華府報到，卻被川普政府叫回去了解美國政府現在最新對臺政策。回到臺灣，裡面有一項是希望建立非紅無人機供應鏈，結果我們無人機的園區被凍結50%，這個在籌備階段就給它凍結。","另外還有一個案子，像我們相關的零附件及保修凍結10%，顧部長，我們的保修跟零附件其實原來的預算就不太夠了，現在要凍結10%，對軍中產生什麼影響？"],["顧部長立雄：對，這部分凍結10%，高達76.4億元，非常不利……"],["王委員定宇：76億耶！"],["顧部長立雄：76.4億元，這個金額很明顯地就是說，我們各型的機艦、戰甲、砲車等主要裝備都要進行維保跟妥善，不然的話會影響整個部隊的戰演訓任務的遂行。"],["王委員定宇：這個零附件裡面其實還包含了我們現在要提升國軍……因為每一個軍人弟兄姐妹都是我們所珍惜的，他們的抗彈板在這裡面，這部分又被弄掉10%，這個抗彈板要面對共軍換裝6.8釐米的，我們也在提升防護力，所以這些東西是可以討論的，需不需要、該怎麼做，但現在沒有，就把你通通凍起來。","我們再看下一個，潛艦，部長，你好好說明一下，海鯤號潛艦後續艦籌獲計畫的20億被凍結50%，我們潛艦要能夠造成功，國外願意冒著中共制裁、經濟制裁的風險，提供相關的裝備跟技術協助，這是很重要的；我們自己國內廠商的合作意願，這是重要的；我們過去幾年來在台船跟海軍訓練的專業人才能夠留下來，這是重要的。這個部分凍結50%，就部長了解，它產生什麼樣的負面影響？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，潛艦預算的部分，主要是我們9月才能夠完成海上的測試，如果完成海上測試，按照我之前的承諾，就是等海上測試之後我們就動支。"],["王委員定宇：對。"],["顧部長立雄：可是現在是凍結之後要經過院會的專報，如果沒有辦法排入院會的專報，就沒有辦法順利解凍，而後續艦的計畫節點，包括裝備合約費的繳付，或者是國外政府的輸出許可、降低廠商的合作意願、流失造艦的專業人才等等，就會衝擊到後續艦的建造。"],["王委員定宇：關於它產生的影響，有一個是往後延、取得時間往後延，還有一種可能性，如果這些輸出許可沒有了，搞不好後續艦就沒有了，有沒有這個風險？"],["顧部長立雄：如果我們沒有辦法順利解凍的話，確實會有，因為我們整個潛艦的水下SAT測試是要到下半年，那下半年如果過了，我們馬上就順利解凍的話，那當然就可以支應，而國外廠商會看到這樣子的解凍程序是相當順利……"],["王委員定宇：其實這是一個信心，就是……"],["顧部長立雄：對，主要是說，讓國外政府或者國外廠商有一個信心存在，但他對於這樣一個解凍程序的不確定性，只要有不確定性存在的話，就會影響他的參與……"],["王委員定宇：坦白講，對於臺灣遇到的威脅，人家犯不著為了你冒風險，如果你自己都不確定，但我們不是說預算不該監督，你就把它通過之後，附帶SAT通過，我們來處理，現在又綁定在院會，其實這個困難度相當高。我有一個總的統計數字，各家算法不一樣，但根據剛才提到國防部的公務預算編了4,760億，減列84億，凍結899億，加起來刪加凍的比例高達20.67%。","這也就是為什麼美國軍事委員會在審查Colby──也就是美國負責政策的副部長的聽證會，不管是蘇利文或者其他的參議員提出的關心，而且他們這次點得很清楚，甚至於包含Pottinger（博明）來到立法院拜會的時候，他這個是有授權可以說出來的，他也在關心說，不要再講你凍多少、減多少，當你做了動作，把臺灣國家安全預算往下一壓，釋放給在華府川普新任官員的只有一個印象，臺灣根本不重視自己的安全！你都不重視，我為什麼對你的關心要超過你自己？甚至於不排除有些人把它壓低，是樂見於臺灣人民被北京所管理，這是很嚴重的訊號。當時像Pottinger也好，或者蘇利文也好，他用的是emergency，他說這是一個緊急狀態，臺灣各界必須重視，而蘇利文在聽證會還特別說，臺灣有人看到他這一段聽證，請轉述不要再玩這種危險的遊戲。","所以我最後這個問題要請教院長，以現在總預算遇到的狀況，追加、解凍這樣就可以解決了，以你做為院長的立場，現在藍、白提出的解決方案能解決這個問題嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果真的誠心誠意讓國家按部就班走向一個發展而且跟世界接軌的路，就儘快地能夠讓預算如數、如期地執行，追加或是用其他的方式都耗費時日，如果能夠通過覆議案，再一次重新協商，我想很短的時間就可以了。"],["王委員定宇：院長，我的邏輯是，你都知道應該要追加了，你為什麼不把原始預算處理好嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員定宇：你都講要追加了，你就知道這個預算有問題啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的意思是一樣的。"],["王委員定宇：這不是面子問題，這是國家跟人民的利益問題，你都認為說，你要辦追加嘛，我幫你追加，那原始預算我們透過覆議好好把它處理。也就是覆議攸關人民福祉，我真的請立法院不分藍、綠、白的同事讓覆議通過，讓我們把預算弄好、讓國家恢復正軌，尤其在國家安全這個事情上不能慢，慢了受害的是全民，我相信院長應該支持這樣的想法。"],["卓院長榮泰：完全瞭解跟支持，也謝謝委員。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請徐欣瑩委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","林倩綺","范雲","林國成","賴瑞隆","王定宇","徐欣瑩","林岱樺","許宇甄","郭國文","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","葛如鈞"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1142501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第2次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案」覆議案","agenda_id":"1142501_00019"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}