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我們剛剛早上有說過解凍最後一筆都可能到年底十一月十一月而且早上看到有這樣的一個數字出現"},{"start":146.693,"end":168.983,"text":"前面一排的早上委員指出的跟暑季數暑季總數所列的數字是明顯有不同的大家計算是不一樣或者是錯誤這也是顯見這次為什麼總議員要提復議就是行政院在做決議的過程不只讓外界莫衷於事連行政院也要掌握立法院的意志好那接下來我問個比較輕鬆的簡單的問題請問院長國家財政和家庭理財有什麼不同"},{"start":174.085,"end":189.182,"text":"譬如說量出為入跟量入為出請問家庭理財是怎麼樣要不要請我們主席長告訴院長治大國如烹小鮮是來主席長你告訴我們院長量入為出跟量出為入誰是誰的"},{"start":190.143,"end":218.199,"text":"原則上在家庭是要量入為出啦如果是國家的話有時候要看你的狀況但是我們現在經濟如果經濟景氣好我們原則上現在都是量出為入好 量出為入院長沒錯我們在審查行政院送來的總預算是預計行政院要做哪些事情要花多少錢我們來決定我們要有多少的稅收如果稅收不足還要去舉債是不是這樣子 部長 院長"},{"start":219.281,"end":237.814,"text":"沒錯,是量出為入好,那我請教一下很簡單的問題小時候啊,不是啊,從以前我們有時候民眾揪團去旅行嘛譬如說要去洗溫泉啊,我出來主揪啊我們大概三十個人成行,一個人收一千塊,多退少補院長,你知道什麼叫多退少補嗎?"},{"start":240.273,"end":254.187,"text":"收多了以後就沒有用那少補呢少補是什麼意思收了錢以後但是支出不夠了大家再補一點點一般我們如果是揪團你會覺得是希望多退還是希望少補"},{"start":255.66,"end":280.93,"text":"當然是退多一點來啊那也就是說多收一點然後用剩的再還給大家嘛但是你知道一般人被揪是什麼想?主要是多退少不補啊通通揪著人自己負責現在呢我是覺得有這樣的心態喔那麼所以一般來講一般以揪來講會這樣但是我請教一下一般的經驗那麼什麼情況之下揪一團之後人家要揪你馬上要退給我回來就馬上跟你結算是不是兩種情況"},{"start":281.63,"end":309.741,"text":"一種是團員對這次糾團的服務品質很不滿意啊還有剩 哎呀 這開店喔 幾千塊再開開不完 兩百塊給大家穿這棟香花另外呢 就是怎樣對主糾的人沒有信心下次不參加了 是不是這樣子那請問我們國家的預算可以說今年的預算執行的我不滿意我明年呢 不參加了 可以這樣嗎在省預算的時候通常會設出很多的條件但是如果大家知道我們從概算到預算到各部會一直到行政院最後組總總結"},{"start":311.388,"end":333.882,"text":"是一段很漫長的時間到最後還要跟總統報告總統還會提出很多的意見這個預算報告之後到院會才會真正的決定所以如果我們用揪團的例子來講如果什麼情況之下團員說多的也不用退什麼情況對一個他覺得揪團的人很好還要再玩對不對那這時候多的部分他有兩種選擇下次少收一點"},{"start":335.106,"end":357.367,"text":"這次收一千 下次收八百就好或者說下次呢 品質提升 下次吃豪華餐 是不是這樣子好 所以同樣的道理 我們再請教一下如果是揪團的人 會造成多退的原因是因為高估了支出 還是低估了收入如果我去揪團 我會覺得跟他收一千塊 後來發現還要退是因為怎樣 高估了支出 還是低估了收入"},{"start":358.22,"end":386.132,"text":"可能對收入來看是支出來看是低估了是可能啊支出大概都會掌握得很緊有經驗的糾團組都不會有可能是什麼反應太熱烈本來要招三百個三十個來了一百個所以實際上很多費用就不用那麼多對不對所以我們來看一下我們過去的稅收哪些被低估政所稅 營所稅 營業稅 政交稅請問莊部長你可以告訴院長我們之前的稅哪些被低估了"},{"start":386.852,"end":403.402,"text":"我們的收入哪些被低估了?跟委員報告我們在稅收的估測上的時候因為有時間上你直接告訴我哪幾個螢幕上出現的哪幾個被低估目前看起來第一個中所稅、營所稅、營業稅還有證交稅就是所列的那這些低估的原因我可以告訴大家為什麼會低估?"},{"start":404.683,"end":431.101,"text":"第一個就是說在整個經濟裡面的發展因為我們的盈利事業在112年景氣超乎預期的好是不是這樣景氣超乎預期的好對部長練習用簡短的話回答我們是給民眾看的就是景氣超乎預期所以稅收讓我們沒想到收這麼多好那請教一下回憶一下院長您講一下之前我們在COVID-19期間2022年國家稅收比估計的好我們做了什麼事情"},{"start":431.821,"end":461.17,"text":"是不是我們行政院拿了一百億 一千億出來撥補勞健保 有沒有有沒有來平抑電價 有沒有 有嘛有沒有再拿一千億來幫忙付學雜費的學貸來幫忙做TPAS 有沒有 有有沒有拿出一千四百一十七億來做經濟成果共享 每個人發六千塊所以當我們收入超過預期的時候政府會選擇提高我們的施政品質內容 對不對甚至會分享經濟成果給大家"},{"start":461.735,"end":482.082,"text":"好那現在來了那麼像這次我們收入超過預期那有沒有之前是用於疫後的振興但是現在呢我們國家的零售業流通經濟都很景氣您覺得是不是我們要考慮一下編列特別預算來照顧一線的醫護人員如果我們錢有多我們是不是會下來做這個事"},{"start":483.337,"end":508.569,"text":"我們的稅計剩餘如果達到一定的數字我們一定要想辦法充實於國家各種的建設跟國家的這個整體的實力那今年我們這樣初估下來大概可用的稅計剩餘會有3000億左右3000億左右所以我希望我希望有一部分來強化國防有一部分來來照顧民生有一個部分"},{"start":509.382,"end":535.068,"text":"來照顧真正社會的弱勢我常常說我會考慮到償債還錢下一頁那個基本該做的事情依法該做的這個都必須先完成好那麼如果我們2024年我們超額的稅收有高達5283億經過精算後我們可以是不是會除了去用償債跟做這些新的計畫之外有沒有可能減稅在今年度明年來減稅"},{"start":536.914,"end":563.965,"text":"減稅它是一個相當精密的作業要減稅到大家都能夠公平性的語錄金簪才有辦法達到真的讓全民共享如果只減到一部分的稅那這個減稅的目的可能我們要重新考量所以你傾向說如果是多收了多我們不退但是呢我們把明年的辦得更好是不是這個意思但是每年我們在報所得稅的時候我們一些免稅額的增加就是降低大家負擔是逐年都在進展的好"},{"start":565.109,"end":592.535,"text":"雙部長聽到了齁 院長說如果我們去年的稅收因為經濟景氣超過預期那明年我們正要跟人民收稅的時候可以考慮一下減輕人民的負擔好不好 可以嗎是的啊 是的好 謝謝來 我再請教院長 兩位請回齁那我接下來請經濟部長一起來齁來 請問 院長你有沒有搭過廉價航空麻煩請經濟部長對不起廉價航空 廉價航空沒有 我沒有搭過 沒有搭過"},{"start":593.055,"end":619.506,"text":"我跟你講我搭過我為了呢要半夜要從越南趕到馬來西亞我不得不選擇那個航班紅眼班機只有聯航聯航的位置幾乎沒辦法傾斜然後沒有公餐而且他也不能幫你拖運行李好那請問你如果你跟家人旅遊你會選擇聯航嗎不會完全排斥看旅途的地點還有時間的短短那你覺得一般人民哪些人會選擇聯航就是"},{"start":621.414,"end":638.883,"text":"第一個可能會節省一下支出年輕 體力好 時間夠的人而且他希望能夠到一個地方馬上就能夠是白天可以下去做他應該有的活動因為搭聯航搞不好團會可以見 是不是這樣但是聯航他其實是挑旅客的"},{"start":639.463,"end":666.72,"text":"他不會勉強你來搭他你覺得你的條件可以搭他搭請問政府服務人民可不可以挑顧客不可以不可以好那我們來問一下來請看下一頁行政院預算倍三台東的鄉親辦護照停辦辦護照是不是政府要提供給人民的服務是的那今天預算倍三台東的鄉親沒辦法享受要坐車來到台北辦你覺得這對偏鄉的人公平嗎因為我們聯合服務中心的費用"},{"start":668.197,"end":684.591,"text":"經費幾乎是全數被刪除好 那麼我們再看下一個癌篩 罕病 被凍結 病友的權益失去了保障您覺得政府有沒有義務要照顧全體的人民包括這些需要癌篩 罕見病的病友要不要提早篩檢會節省"},{"start":685.972,"end":710.451,"text":"建保的支出這個是政府的政策希望能夠照顧到這些國人所以我的意思是說政府的施政不能像聯航一樣有人說這個我沒有情理啊我也不要去飛機上的餐啊很多預算我給你算一算你不用提供給我團費降低就好政府很多的預算支出不是只顧慮到少數不需要的人我們要照顧到更多需要的人您同意嗎"},{"start":711.354,"end":735.262,"text":"是的景氣好 人民的水準也會提高政府的服務量能也會增加跟改善下一頁喔 電價的部分就是每個人都要用到電 是不是那請問一下 部長 你們告訴院長目前經濟部對於穩定民生用電和能夠維持台電營運您做了哪些努力 簡單的說有沒有調整我們要先從這個電的成本"},{"start":738.589,"end":753.2,"text":"這個發電成本來降低嘛然後第二個就是維護的成本能夠降低是 那你們是不是差別性的來調整電費大用戶高耗能的我們工業用電優先調家庭的 民生的我們盡量不調是不是這樣的態度"},{"start":754.254,"end":778.898,"text":"這個因為院長有指示啦就是說照顧民生這個是第一嘛然後工業用電就是要不比這個其他的競爭的國家不能比他高嘛好謝謝院長的指示在這兩個前提之下我們在努力好院長那現在台電出一個問題啦下一頁2024年累計虧損4200億負債比92%請問部長你曾經是一個成功的企業家意大公司到這種情況是不是快要倒了"},{"start":780.799,"end":800.856,"text":"我們一定要優先趕快處理財務的現象所以行政院為了幫助台電永續經營要補助台電一千億的預算現在被立法院刪掉了所以怎麼辦是不是就要被迫調整電費來營運2024年跟2025年我們各編了"},{"start":804.113,"end":822.542,"text":"各邊一千億最佳預算跟這個總要政府總預算但是2024年的最佳預算沒有了沒有了一直沒有談到所以可能配貨要調整電費他就是我們對台電用兩千億要來改善他財政體質的所以可能配貨要調電費嗎那有沒有其他方法我看到一個過去一個例子來下一頁"},{"start":823.582,"end":844.67,"text":"過去呢,離島用電虧損的都是台電吸收,根據離島建設條例第14條離島的發電成本比較高,但是台電按照島內本國的一般的用電收費費率以至於這個虧損,台電自行吸收,但是依法要補償它,是不是這樣子?他現在還在追討啦,他說過去24年多來,大概累積1100億"},{"start":847.792,"end":854.903,"text":"請問院長,部長有沒有報告這個事情,台電打算依法來追討這筆應法應該辦的這個補償,有沒有歷任的政府都希望用台灣本島內經濟力比較"},{"start":863.096,"end":889.104,"text":"優異的能夠去協助離島的居民的生活那過去有沒有補貼台電補償台電 過去都是用補台電來吸收有嗎 沒有 台電來吸收過去都是台電吸收因為水的部分有補償金門跟連江水公司有經濟部有補償它所以水公司有得到台電公司從來沒有好啦 那請問一下台電公司這個依法要補償的他現在說了 往下看"},{"start":889.904,"end":907.251,"text":"他說你依法應撥不會撥補台電有沒有民股啊部長請告訴院長台電有沒有民股啊台電有沒有民股民間持股有嘛是不是台電的民股說我這個公司虧損你政府應該依法補償的你沒有補償那行政院要不要面對有沒有考慮過這個是"},{"start":913.326,"end":931.983,"text":"經濟部跟台電最近幾天提出的一個方式我想他們就是在財政無法健全得到政府撥補的情況底下在野黨說啊台積電有不到兩成不到一成是政府的關股台積電去投資美國他都要追究了如果台電的民股說你依法政府要補償我對離島的這些電費補償那麼最後兩個結論告訴您"},{"start":936.767,"end":944.081,"text":"如果這一檔認為普發現金要訂特別條例是不是同時這個特別條例應該包含了降低稅務跟加強務同不同意"},{"start":972.35,"end":973.911,"text":"好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委的詢問謝謝主委長 相關部會所長的備詢 謝謝"},{"start":978.171,"end":982.047,"text":"接下來本日登記最後一位葛如軍委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1317,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（15時3分）主席、在場的行政團隊、卓院長還有委員先進。有請卓院長及主計長和財政部莊部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、主計長、財政部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長好，主計長、部長好。院長，今天我的質詢題目是「稅收豐裕充實預算服務升級、補償台電改善財務安定民生」。但是首先，我聽了今天上午的詢答，發現有些在野黨委員提出的這次總預算的數字，比如說這次是史上被凍結數最多受到質疑，比如說這次是解凍條件最困難的，那請教一下，所謂史上被凍結數最多的，是誰在當在野黨的時候造成的？能不能請院長再次確認、說明？這是上午某位委員的質詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：按照這樣的數字看起來，凍結數提出最多的，就是金額啦、凍結數，應該是在94年跟95年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：2005、2006？那麼就是陳水扁總統任內。當時誰是在野黨？"],["卓院長榮泰：那時候是陳水扁總統執政的時候。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，是國民黨在野？"],["卓院長榮泰：是國民黨在野。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。那麼為什麼您說這次是解凍條件最困難的一次呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為很多解凍的條件都必須到院會，經過報告之後才能夠解凍，這在過去也是少見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實本席雖然只有不到10年的委員經驗，我也知道過去是前所未有。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是一般民眾不懂，他不曉得所謂的院會解凍是什麼，所以希望未來行政院能夠多多強調，讓民眾知道，就告訴他們結論，這些被凍的就等同是被刪了。院長，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，我們早上有說過，解凍最後一筆都可能到年底11月、12月。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["卓院長榮泰：而且早上看到有這樣的一個數字出現，前面一排的，早上委員指出的跟主計總處所列的數字是明顯有不同的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有不同的。"],["卓院長榮泰：大家計算是不一樣，或者是錯誤。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這也是顯見這次為什麼總預算案要提覆議，就是立法院在做成決議的過程，不只讓外界莫衷一是，連行政院也沒辦法掌握立法院的意旨。","接下來我問一個比較輕鬆的、簡單的問題，請問院長，國家財政和家庭理財有什麼不同？譬如量出為入跟量入為出，請問家庭理財是怎麼樣？要不要請我們主計長告訴院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：治大國如烹小鮮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。主計長，你告訴我們院長，量入為出跟量出為入，誰是誰的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上，在家庭是要量入為出，如果是國家的話，有時候你要看你的狀況，但是如果經濟景氣好，我們原則上現在都是量出為入。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，量出為入。院長，沒錯！我們在審查行政院送來的總預算，是預計行政院要做哪些事情、要花多少錢，我們來決定我們要有多少的稅收，如果稅收不足還要去舉債，是不是這樣子，院長？沒錯嘛！是不是量出為入？好，那我請教一下很簡單的問題，從以前我們有時候民眾揪團去旅行，譬如要去洗溫泉，我出來主揪，說我們大概30人成行，1人收1,000塊，多退少補。院長，你知道什麼叫多退少補嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：收多了以後，沒有用到就要把它退給大家……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有用完的就退，那麼少補呢？少補是什麼意思？不夠了？"],["卓院長榮泰：少補就是收了錢以後，但是支出不夠了，大家再補一點錢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，我們一般如果是揪團，你會希望是多退，還是希望少補？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是退多一點來啊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，就是多收一點，用剩的再還給大家嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是你知道一般人被揪是怎麼想？最好是多退少不補啊！通通都是揪的人只能自己負責，現在我是覺得有這樣的心態，所以一般以揪團來講是這樣，但是我請教一下一般的經驗，那麼什麼情況之下，揪團之後，人家要求你馬上要退給我，回來就馬上跟你結算，是不是有兩種情況？一種是團員對這次揪團的服務品質很不滿意啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有剩，唉呀！花這個1,000塊，花了錢卻才不到200塊的價值，剩下的都還我。另外就是對主揪的人沒有信心，下次不參加了，是不是這樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問我們國家的預算可以因為今年預算的執行，我不滿意，我明年不參加了，可以這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：在審預算的時候，通常會設出很多的條件。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是如果大家知道我們從概算到預算到各部會，一直到行政院，最後主總總結，這是一段很漫長的時間，到最後還要跟總統報告，總統還會提出很多的意見，這個預算報告之後，到院會才會真正的決定……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。如果我們再用揪團的例子來講，什麼情況之下，團員說多的也不用退，是什麼情況？對一個他覺得揪團的人很好，還要再玩，對不對？這時候多的部分，他有兩種選擇，下次少收一點，這次收1,000，下次收800就好；或者下次品質提升，下次吃豪華餐，是不是這樣子？好，所以同樣的道理，我們再請教一下，如果是揪團的人會造成多退的原因，是因為高估了支出還是低估了收入，如果我去揪團，我跟他收1,000塊，發現還要退，這是因為怎樣？高估了支出還是低估了收入。"],["卓院長榮泰：可能對支出來看是低估了？"],["鍾委員佳濱：支出大概都會掌握得很緊，有經驗的揪團主都不會如此，有可能是什麼？反應太熱烈，本來要抓到30個，卻來了100個，所以實際上很多費用就不用那麼多，對不對？所以我們來看一下，過去的稅收哪一些被低估？綜所稅、營所稅、營業稅、證交稅，請問莊部長，你可不可以告訴院長，我們之前的稅哪些被低估了？我們的收入哪些被低估了？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們在稅收的估測上，因為有時間上的差距，因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你直接告訴我哪幾個？螢幕上出現了哪幾個被低估？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前看起來，就是綜所稅、營所稅、營業稅，還有證交稅，就是所列的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這些低估的原因，可以告訴大家為什麼會低估？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，在整個經濟的發展，因為我們的營利事業在112年……"],["鍾委員佳濱：景氣超乎預期的好，是不是這樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，景氣超乎預期的好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，部長，練習用簡短的話回答，我們是給民眾看的，就是景氣超乎預期，沒想到稅收會收到這麼多。請院長回憶一下，之前在COVID-19期間的2022年，國家稅收比估計的好，我們做了什麼事情？行政院是不是拿了1,000億出來撥補勞健保，有沒有？有沒有來平抑電價？有沒有？有嘛！有沒有拿1,000億幫忙付學雜費的學貸、幫忙做TPASS，有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有拿出1,417億來做經濟成果共享，每個人發了6,000塊？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以當我們的收入超過預期的時候，政府會選擇提高施政品質、內容，對不對？甚至會分享經濟成果給大家。好，現在來了，像這次我們的收入超過預期，之前是用於疫後振興，但現在呢？我們國家的零售業流通、經濟都很景氣，您覺得是不是要考慮編列特別預算來照顧一線的醫護人員？如果我們錢有多，是不是可以下來做這個事？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的歲計賸餘如果達到一定數字，一定要想辦法充實於國家各種建設跟國家整體實力，今年我們粗估下來，大概可用的歲計賸餘會有3,000億左右，我希望……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以打算怎麼做？"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望有一部分來強化國防，有一部分來照顧民生，有一部分來照顧真正社會的弱勢，我常常說，把……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那會不會考慮到償債？還錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：基本該做的事情、依法該做的事情，這個都必須先完成。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，如果2024年我們超額的稅收有高達5,283億，經過精算後，除了償債跟做這些新計畫外，有沒有可能減稅？在今年度、明年來減稅？"],["卓院長榮泰：減稅是一個相當精密的作業，要減稅到大家都能夠公平性的雨露均霑，才有辦法達到真的讓全民共享，如果只減到一部分的稅，那這個減稅的目的可能要重新考量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你傾向如果是多收了，我們不退，但是我們把明年的事辦得更好，是不是這個意思？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是每年我們在報所得稅的時候，一些免稅額的增加，就是降低大家的負擔，這是逐年都在進展的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，莊部長，聽到了吼！院長說如果去年的稅收因為經濟景氣超過預期，明年我們要跟人民收稅的時候，可以考慮一下減輕人民的負擔，好不好？可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，兩位請回。接下來請經濟部長上台。"],["主席：麻煩請經濟部長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問院長，你有沒有搭過廉價航空？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我沒有搭過。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，我跟你講，我搭過，我為了半夜要從越南趕到馬來西亞，不得不選擇廉航的紅眼班機，廉航的位子幾乎沒有辦法傾斜，也沒有供餐，而且也不讓你托運行李。請問你，如果你跟家人旅遊，你會選擇廉航嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：欸，不會完全排斥，看旅途的地點，還有時間的長短。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你覺得一般人民中，哪些人會選擇廉航？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個可能會節省一些支出……"],["鍾委員佳濱：年輕、體力好、時間夠的人，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，年輕，而且他希望到一個地方是白天，馬上就能夠去做他應該有的行動。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為搭廉航，搞不好團費可以減，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是廉航其實是挑旅客的，它不會勉強你來搭它，你覺得你的條件可以再去搭，請問政府服務人民，可不可以挑顧客？"],["卓院長榮泰：不可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不可以，好，行政院預算被刪，臺東鄉親申辦護照停辦，請問辦護照是不是政府要提供給人民的服務？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：今天因為預算被刪，臺東鄉親沒辦法享受，要坐車來臺北辦，你覺得這對偏鄉的人公平嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們聯合服務中心的費用、經費幾乎是全數被刪除……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，好，我們再看下一個……"],["卓院長榮泰：這些是事實上的部分費用……"],["鍾委員佳濱：癌篩、罕病被凍結，病友的權益失去保障，您覺得政府有沒有義務要照顧全體人民，包括這些需要癌篩、罕見病的病友，要不要？"],["卓院長榮泰：提早篩檢會節省健保的支出，這個也是政府的政策，希望能夠照顧到這些國人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我的意思是，政府施政不能像廉航一樣，有人說我沒有行李，我也不要吃飛機上的餐，很多預算給你刪一刪，你不用提供給我，團費降低就好。政府很多的預算支出，不是只顧慮到少數不需要的人，我們要照顧到更多需要的人，您同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，景氣好，人民的水準也會提高，政府的服務量能也會增加跟改善。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下電價的部分，每個人都要用到電，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下部長，您能不能告訴院長，目前經濟部對於穩定民生用電和能夠維持台電營運，您做了哪些努力？簡單地說，有沒有要調漲？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在是先從電的這個成本……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要反映成本？"],["郭部長智輝：要從發電成本來降低，然後第二個就是維護的成本能夠降低。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，你們是不是差別性地調整電費？大用戶、高耗能的工業用電就優先調，家庭的、民生的就儘量不調，是不是這樣的態度？"],["郭部長智輝：這個因為院長有指示，照顧民生這個是第一，然後工業用電就是不能比其他競爭的國家高嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝院長的指示。"],["郭部長智輝：在這兩個前提之下，我們再努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長，現在台電出一個問題了，2024年累積虧損4,200億，負債比是92%。請問部長，你曾經是一個成功的企業家，一家公司到這種情況是不是快要倒了？"],["郭部長智輝：我們一定要優先趕快處理這個財務現象。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以院長，我們看一下，行政院為了幫助台電能夠永續經營，要補助台電1,000億的預算，現在被立法院刪掉了，所以怎麼辦？是不是就要被迫調整電費來因應？"],["卓院長榮泰：2024年跟2025年，我們各編了1,000億追加預算跟中央政府總預算，但是2024年的追加預算沒有了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有了？"],["卓院長榮泰：一直沒有談到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以可能被迫要調整電費？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是我們對台電要用2,000億來改善它的財政體質。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以可能會被迫調電費嗎？有沒有其他方法？我看到過去的一個例子，過去離島用電的虧損都是由台電吸收，根據離島建設條例第十四條，離島的發電成本比較高，但是台電按照島內本國的一般用電收費費率，以至於這個虧損是由台電自行吸收，但是依法要補償它，是不是這樣子？它現在來追討了，它說過去24年多來，大概累積了1,100億。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問院長，部長有沒有報告這個事情？台電打算依法追討這一筆應該辦的這個補償，有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：歷任的政府都希望用臺灣本島內經濟力比較優異的去協助離島居民的生活。"],["鍾委員佳濱：過去有沒有補貼台電、補償台電？"],["卓院長榮泰：過去都是由台電來吸收。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嗎？沒有。"],["卓院長榮泰：由台電來吸收。"],["鍾委員佳濱：過去都是台電吸收，因為水的部分有補償金門跟連江，經濟部有補償水公司，所以水公司有得到，但台電公司從來沒有。好了，那請問一下，台電公司這個依法要補償的，它現在說了，你依法應撥補未撥補，台電有沒有民股啊？部長請告訴院長，台電有沒有民股啊？是不是有民間持股？有嘛！台電的民股說，我這個公司虧損，你政府應該依法補償的，你沒有補償，那行政院要不要面對？有沒有考慮過？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是經濟部跟台電最近幾天提出的一個方式。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：他們就是在財政無法健全得到政府撥補的情況底下……"],["鍾委員佳濱：在野黨說，台積電不到一成是政府的官股，台積電去投資美國，他都要追究了；如果台電的民股說，依法政府要補償我對離島的這些電費補差，那麼最後兩個結論告訴您，如果在野黨認為普發現金要訂特別條例，這個特別條例是不是應該同時包含降低稅務，跟加強服務，同不同意？","第二個是不是要評估台電依法追討離島供電虧損的法律責任、預算來源跟程序？院長，可不可以指示台電跟財政部？"],["卓院長榮泰：政府要依法使用歲計賸餘，必須要有一個特別條例。這個條例我們希望立法院能夠合理地審議，通過一個全民分享、共享的特別條例，我們才能據以執行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。對於最後兩題就請院長指示相關部會跟我回答，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的詢問，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來本日登記最後一位葛如鈞委員，請詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","林倩綺","范雲","林國成","賴瑞隆","王定宇","徐欣瑩","林岱樺","許宇甄","郭國文","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","葛如鈞"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-03-11"],"gazette_id":"1142501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第2次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案」覆議案","agenda_id":"1142501_00019"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}