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不適合工法上職務關係就讓他們連爭取勞動權益條件待遇的基本權利都沒有錦霄英雄面對的不僅僅是火災和犯罪還要面臨制度上的束縛和不公"},{"start":2410.371,"end":2428.571,"text":"​​ 此幾年許多錦霄同仁在執行勤務當中英勇的殉職也有人因為職場的壓力選擇自強離開我們這對他們的家庭社會都是不可磨滅的損失每一次新聞報導的哀調就提醒了我們這是制度上的漏洞"},{"start":2429.071,"end":2448.101,"text":"他們為了社會的安定和和諧付出了生命卻仍然缺乏足夠的權益保護因此本席提出工會法的修正草案是希望確保警消人員有籌組及加入工會的權利這不僅僅是對他們付出的認可也會是我們社會進步的標誌謝謝好謝謝陳菁輝委員的說明接下來我們請勞動部"},{"start":2456.198,"end":2459.193,"text":"許明春部長就以上三案並按說明時間10分鐘。"},{"start":2466.297,"end":2495.331,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生各位記者朋友大家好那感謝貴文會的邀請有本人向各位委員進行工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案勞動基礎法第五十四條條文修正草案勞動基礎法第五十四條及第八十六條條文修正草案及中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法部分條文修正草案相關報告敬請委員不令指正"},{"start":2496.892,"end":2513.223,"text":"有關工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案部分政府對於警察與消防員的權益相當重視我國警察與消防人員具有公務人員的身份及團結權與協商權的行使涉及公務人員體系"},{"start":2515.224,"end":2541.788,"text":"關法令與勞工依工會法組織工會與僱主簽訂團體協約提升勞動條件二者顯有不同為了因應工部門勞動關係發展趨勢及回應各界有關公務人員結社的訴求去年10月30日考試院衛顯行政院將公務人員協會法部分條文修正草案送大院審查以朝向"},{"start":2542.368,"end":2547.474,"text":"》委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2557.325,"end":2567.31,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文"},{"start":2582.335,"end":2603.051,"text":"主管機關溝通以提升對於警察與消防員的保障委員所提修正工會法保障消防員或警察團結權以審慎評估朝向修正工人員協會法與保障有關勞動基準法第54條條文修正草案及勞動基準法第54條及86條條文修正草案部分"},{"start":2607.901,"end":2632.017,"text":"委員王育敏等18人提案修正勞動基準法第54條第二項,針列前項第一款所規定的年齡經勞資協議延任或新聘者得延後資。國民黨立院黨團提案修正勞動基準法第54條第一項第一款,針列勞工非有下列情形之一,雇主不得強制其退休,年滿65歲者,"},{"start":2633.618,"end":2660.576,"text":"但經勞資協議延任或新病者不在此限等規定,說明如下。勞動基準法第54條規定勞工非年滿65歲,雇主不得強制其退休。其立法的意旨是規範勞工在65歲前受雇,持續受雇到年滿65歲以前,雇主不得任意強制勞工退休。勞工年滿65歲,勞資雙方如果有意願,"},{"start":2663.878,"end":2676.896,"text":"​​僱主仍可以繼續僱用勞工從事工作。至於提案所提的新聘者如果是未滿65歲自可適用現行規定。另外新聘勞工如果是年滿65歲以後才受僱主僱用。"},{"start":2679.437,"end":2704.995,"text":"依據《中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法》的規定,僱主不論是與其簽訂、訂起契約或不訂起契約,事後都不得再以勞工打法定強制退休年齡為由,強制勞工退休,確保勞工工作權益。本次委員提案修訂《勞動基準法》明定僱主經勞資協議延後強制勞工退休年齡的規定利益良善,"},{"start":2705.996,"end":2725.67,"text":"為因勞動基準法是規範勞動條件的最低標準,如果勞工雙方有優於法令的協商約定,無需修法就可以適用。本部將加強宣導勞動基準法規定,確保勞工權益。有關中高齡及高齡者就業促進法部分條文修正草案部分,"},{"start":2726.761,"end":2749.06,"text":"有關委員郭育秦等19人提案修正第26條增列營利事業僱用中高齡和高齡的薪資費用,可以減除其營利所得稅額,鼓勵企業禁用中高齡者及高齡者的措施。但因涉及政府的財政、租稅減免和營利事業經營輔導業務,本部尊重財政部及經濟部的意見。"},{"start":2753.524,"end":2769.889,"text":"主管委員王育敏、顏寬恆等18人提案修正第九條增列明定本部至少每兩年更新職場的指引手冊及第29條放寬退休再就業的適用對象本部競表同意並遵照辦理。"},{"start":2770.709,"end":2785.741,"text":"有關委員馬文君、游浩、蘇金權、沈金威、徐宇貞等22人及委員邱若驊、廖偉祥、林佩祥、黃建豪、徐宇貞等20人提案修正第七條《明定本部每兩年訂定就業計劃》。"},{"start":2787.122,"end":2805.22,"text":"本部參考當前的勞動情勢,廣納產官學各界意見並檢討現行措施,訂定三年計劃。現行條文可以兼具實務運作的彈性,每年也依執行行滾動修正計劃內容,所以建議能夠維持現行條文。"},{"start":2807.202,"end":2821.537,"text":"有關增列第二項就業計畫內容包含就業促進、職業安全及健康之維護事項案本部竟表同意並建議納入現行施行規則第三條條文相關款次以為週延。"},{"start":2822.978,"end":2841.66,"text":"有關委員秋洛華、廖偉祥、林佩祥、黃建豪、徐宇貞等20人提案第36條修正本部因會商中央目的事業主管機關共同開發就業機會本部無異見。至增列政府應推動長壽產業部分"},{"start":2844.904,"end":2863.042,"text":"﹑經濟部長禮產業的發展範疇本部尊重經濟部的意見以上報告懇請各位委員先進柏林指教謝謝好謝謝許部長的說明跟報告那還有民眾黨黨團剛剛有要提案說明我們是請陳昭志委員"},{"start":2868.543,"end":2880.728,"text":"謝謝主席本席請代表民眾黨黨團針對工會法修正草案做提案說明那現行公務人員的這個協會制度僅賦予公務人員跟這個政府進行健康勤務跟設備等事項的權限但是該協商不能夠締結團體的協約缺乏勞動"},{"start":2885.87,"end":2901.724,"text":"公會是完整的勞動三權。按照《公民與政治權利國際公約》及《經濟社會文化權利國際公約施行法》第八條有明確的規範,人人由全組促進及保障其經濟及社會利益而組織公會及加入其自身選擇之公會。"},{"start":2902.705,"end":2927.186,"text":"那目前先進國家包括德國、美國、意大利等都有警察及消防員組成之公會組織。那為了落實我國憲法保障人民結社的自由以及經社文公約施行法則立法旨意並考量我國行政機關對施行之影響應循序漸進開放公務員組成公會原提案修正公會法第四條及第六條明定警察及消防員得組織及加入公會並考量"},{"start":2927.846,"end":2953.778,"text":"警消體系之特殊性規範警消人警德組織及加入產業工會及職業工會事實上就是說事實上他們的爭取已經將近10年剛剛其他委員說明也提到了我今天非常感謝王育敏召委能夠排審警消組成工會的這個法案那我們終於有機會進入這個實質審查希望這個禮拜就能夠送審送出委員會那並早日完成三讀通過落實我們對警消同仁的勞動權益保障謝謝"},{"start":2957.85,"end":2985.035,"text":"謝謝民眾黨黨團的提案說明有關於本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始詢答作以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息5分鐘"},{"start":2985.984,"end":2994.933,"text":"依照往例審查法案今天不處理臨時提案我們現在請登記第一位陳昭之委員發言有請部長謝謝好請許部長"},{"start":3006.394,"end":3014.459,"text":"陳副委員好。部長好。今天是我跟您的最後一次的詢答。我很珍惜這個機會。不過部長見諒我今天還是要盡我的監督責任。不能打折扣。部長我們過去常常看到許多重工業化或化學工業的工廠發生爆炸大火。"},{"start":3024.506,"end":3024.727,"text":"〈一〉國民黨團擬具〉"},{"start":3044.605,"end":3058.533,"text":"國營事業諸如臺電跟中油也常常發生公安事件前年不管是在臺電這個圖上有臺電的中部火力發電廠發生煤倉火災或是說中油大林煉油廠發生爆炸大火"},{"start":3059.634,"end":3072.867,"text":"除此之外,如果能夠說好事前的防範,是不是可以把事故範圍縮小?那部長是不是也同意說國營事業應該要帶頭,帶頭把做好事前的風險管控,這個國營事業要帶頭來做,部長同意嗎?那部長,我有一些資料跟部長分享,我對於這個勞動部職安署在接獲檢舉之後,"},{"start":3084.557,"end":3108.303,"text":"公安事件風險管控的防暴電器設備採購資料進行調查,我是非常肯定,就是有去索取這個動作。但是部長您認為這個子安署的同仁在進行調查的時候有盡興嗎?您有信心嗎?報委我們其實子安署的同仁都非常的認真盡責,所以我相信他們一定會就相關"},{"start":3109.483,"end":3113.906,"text":"對於職安署的負責防爆電器設備頭人是否有依法進行調查我這裡要打一個問號那我說明給部長聽最後再請部長來回答好那請看下一張部長我接下來秀這個資料都是廠商去進行這個防爆電器設備的這個形式檢定合格後"},{"start":3129.898,"end":3130.578,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案件。"},{"start":3160.418,"end":3181.706,"text":"條及第六條條文修正草案案。cellence 請部長稍微記一下目前他是有這個四個形式那部長檢報上這兩張就是身方連同前面RSTI他檢定合格的證明傳到這個治安署的這個網站上的產品型錄我們也看到是看到是一致的EYS EYM EYD跟EYDM而且上面有一個比較"},{"start":3183.109,"end":3190.675,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。」案。議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。案。議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。案。"},{"start":3207.668,"end":3234.728,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 中是三個形態,EYS、EYM、EYD,部長就是現在是這個狀況,也就是說2023年7月10號,ISTI檢定合格書上面只有說深方公司的產品型號才多了EYDM,我想署長會很清楚,就之前它是合組了三個形態,那只有到2023才多了個EYDM,那2020之前並沒有,部長到目前為止我的資訊是這樣子,OK嗎?"},{"start":3238.368,"end":3251.055,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 案 規定合格證明傳到職安署的網站上的產品進入你可以看到上面有個材質是寫可斷鑄鐵"},{"start":3255.118,"end":3269.176,"text":"議員請記住這是可斷註帖是2017到2022年那我們也可以看到這重點來了明明看到RST在2017年他所核准的這個形式檢定只有三種EYS、EYM、EYD"},{"start":3270.277,"end":3296.963,"text":"但這邊的刑路卻多了一個UIDM型號。請問部長為何會發生這種?廠商登錄在這個職安署的網站上,那個檢定合格證明書跟刑路會有不一樣的狀況。過去職安署都不用去核對這個上傳的資料嗎?還是身方上傳資料有問題?還是ISTI檢驗有問題?職安署是否要進行一個調查?部長這不是小事欸這個是偽造文書欸。"},{"start":3299.264,"end":3305.909,"text":"除此之外：立法院第11屆第12屆委員會議上傳了一個：立法院第12屆委員會議上傳了一個：立法院第12屆委員會議上傳了一個：立法院第12屆委員會議上傳了一個："},{"start":3319.44,"end":3320.74,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":3341.892,"end":3364.834,"text":"那下一張畫面上這兩張一樣是在大林電廠提供給職安組的資料當中2019年的採購案當時申方公司拿到的ISTI核發的形式檢定核證明根本沒有求墨注帖也沒有EUIDM的型號因為那是在2023年之後我剛剛已經秀資料給部長看了"},{"start":3365.094,"end":3365.114,"text":"),委員"},{"start":3388.695,"end":3401.664,"text":""},{"start":3402.312,"end":3422.944,"text":"各位有回報,第一個國營企業的安全衛生我們用高標準來做檢查所以我們勞動朋友跟各部會成立一個跨部會的檢測平台針對各種重大案件我們會做檢疫檢討那剛才那個案子是火災爆炸但是沒有人員傷亡所以不是直災案件第二個有關這個案子我之前也跟委員親自到委員辦公室報告這個案子我們初查結果看是身方"},{"start":3423.524,"end":3436.412,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第"},{"start":3448.92,"end":3465.336,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 案件 請檢查官僚最重要的了解,所以我們一直在進行,而且委員的資料都是我們財產署給您提供、給您報告的,後續我們同仁我們會立即堅決主張,我們同仁是依照法定來辦的事情,如果我們同仁有任何的疑慮,我們會再處理。"},{"start":3470.161,"end":3482.512,"text":"議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院議員"},{"start":3489.898,"end":3506.291,"text":"他們這個在凱道夜宿爭取主工會結果換來不是工會而是所謂的這個特種協會那到現在為止聽部長的報告也是只願意修改公務員協會但是這兩個的立場差很大喔因為這個協會公共會差保障差很大因為他們沒有這個團結權也沒有這個團體的協會權更沒有爭議權那我們是不是想辦法讓基層警消跟政府有平衡談話的權利那我們再來看看這個就是說他們不是"},{"start":3518.7,"end":3523.364,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":3537.495,"end":3554.325,"text":"應公殉職應公死亡每一條都是人命都是背後一個破碎的家庭他們的工作請部長就能夠了解警消工作的風險他們這個讓基層的元宵能夠有跟政府公平談判的權利那請部長放心主公關的目的不是罷工啦"},{"start":3554.645,"end":3564.973,"text":"​​國民黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":3584.428,"end":3604.633,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":3613.444,"end":3616.166,"text":"各位委員主席請許部長好請許部長部長我知道這是最後一個禮拜我們一起相處但我們還是要工作到最後一天還是得認真我一定會盡忠職守到最後一刻謝謝那當然這禮拜的重頭戲就是審工會法老幾法等相關的草案但大家為什麼這麼在意"},{"start":3638.723,"end":3663.168,"text":"因為近期內實在有太多悲劇發生近四年內就有22位的基層員警自強去年民洋大火大家看電視都非常的痛心有四位消防人員不幸的喪生所以這些人剛好都在非常年輕的時候也是一個家庭的支柱所以我們必須要更爭取他們的權益去年第十屆的末期"},{"start":3664.208,"end":3676.842,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":3681.087,"end":3701.036,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。」案件是由2017年開始說的,您說支持組工會有這個四個建議,勞動部有四個建議,你看至今我們沒有一個有實現,第一個、第二個、第三個、第四個,那當然為什麼我們今天會這麼重視,因為第二個跟您是高度相關。"},{"start":3703.632,"end":3729.794,"text":"你會不會覺得說身為一個部長又是勞工的靠山又是一位律師這些也不用本席跟您說了勞工三權就是團結權集體協商權還有爭議權所以我們看當初提出來的草案為什麼沒有人買單也沒有人感恩也沒有人想要來討論因為這邊寫得很清楚嘛當你有影響"},{"start":3731.215,"end":3736.936,"text":"允許協商協商權假使破裂就必須要走到爭議這一步可是呢你給他沒有力道的協商權他其實也不能幹嘛"},{"start":3755.24,"end":3770.017,"text":"最後當然你們的書面報告有寫到說已經把800人可以組成工協會下降為400人可是比起組工會只要30個人就可以成立這樣子的人數是天差地遠"},{"start":3771.318,"end":3791.548,"text":"除此之外警消人員他們每天忙在基層的工作就非常的忙碌了還要他們去找400個人一起來成立協會這樣是不是會太可可為很想要聽聽部長您身為勞工的靠山又是律師又是這方面的專業有什麼看法這四個提案看起來目前就第二個比較可行啊"},{"start":3792.735,"end":3807.543,"text":"包括委員我想對於我們警消人員的這個團結權他應該給予保障我想勞動部包括我個人我自始至終我都支持啦我都支持那當然到底要用什麼路徑"},{"start":3808.882,"end":3810.284,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":3828.4,"end":3848.443,"text":"僅消人員來講他另外一個身份就是公務人員那他的工作是保障社會大眾的生活還有穩定社會秩序所以他是具有高度的公共利益的工作那我想給他們更好的勞動權也應該只是說那個身份上"},{"start":3849.697,"end":3853.76,"text":"公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員公務人員"},{"start":3872.375,"end":3873.356,"text":"兼具兼具兼具兼具"},{"start":3888.217,"end":3888.577,"text":"兼職人員兼職人員兼職人員"},{"start":3908.223,"end":3923.885,"text":"但是不能無限的情緒勒索畢竟他們同事的這些情務是很容易危及生命的因為其實在其他國家的法制我們也可以做參考像我們隔壁的日本跟新加坡他們警消人員是"},{"start":3924.686,"end":3950.371,"text":"除公會的但是他們用怎麼樣一個另外一個那個組織來保障那些我覺得以臺灣來講我們其實最快我是覺得最快因為我們希望一個訴求就像委員講的公會法已經倡議這麼久了那如果其他路徑可以盡快達到他們的這個訴求的目的我覺得大家可以找這個方向來努力2017年你提出了四個方案但是去年你還是給了一個軟釘子"},{"start":3952.751,"end":3981.303,"text":"你最後是說其實還是修公務員的協會法是最快但是這次的草案當然這個書面報告也不是歸您管啦所以你應該也沒有辦法可能個人的立場你不方便說出那你公務人員協會法應該要怎麼修訂比較好可是我們還是希望說這個是您的一念之間啦所以我們可以禮拜三的時候繼續討論因為我們還是很希望可以保障警消的這個勞動三權"},{"start":3982.563,"end":4010.237,"text":"拜託,因為勞動三權就是結社、協商跟爭議,那爭議權就是罷工,其實罷工是達到他們訴求的手段,可是錦囂人員的罷工這件事情可能社會大眾會有疑慮啦。 有一些國家它會設定一些條件,比如說一定的執勤的人數,一定的比例等等的,你覺得這方面是可以討論的嗎?"},{"start":4010.237,"end":4011.338,"text":"這個部分我覺得要在"},{"start":4011.798,"end":4012.4,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":4018.661,"end":4041.426,"text":"公示出來因為爭議權為什麼像日本新加坡他也不不可以組工會可能我想他們也有一些考量比如說爭議這個罷工權可能會影響到社會大眾的一個生存的安全這個部分我覺得可能就是要審慎但是我覺得對於他們的協商跟結社這個部分我們認為應該要朝更寬的方向來做"},{"start":4042.426,"end":4056.953,"text":"國會教育部、法務部、內政部、外交部等國會教育部、法務部、內政部、外交部等國會教育部、法務部、內政部、外交部等國會教育部、法務部、內政部、外交部等國會教育部、法務部、內政部、外交部等國會教育部、法務部、內政部、外交部等國會教育部、法務部、內政部、外交部等國會教育部、法務部、內政部、外交部等國會教育部、外交部等國會教育部、外交部等國會教育部、外交部等國會教育部、外交部等國會教育部、外交部等國會教育部、外交部等國會教育部"},{"start":4068.319,"end":4088.541,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":4088.681,"end":4091.423,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4118.541,"end":4118.561,"text":"月30﹗"},{"start":4137.242,"end":4166.056,"text":"再來是勞動部5月7號而上週末是內政部突然也大費周章的發了很多新聞稿5月11讓公務員是加班喔因為是禮拜六才發出來的所以你們這個順序是有什麼原因嗎報告委員是這樣子是國發會統整各部會的具體的措施先徵詢我們有沒有加入的意願那我們跟國發會表達勞動部有加入這個CAP的意願"},{"start":4166.929,"end":4168.511,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":4187.509,"end":4208.977,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 規定說好這16個政府或是這些國家假使他有任何一個國家並沒有配合或是違反當初的協議最後應該要怎麼處理所以這個是不是什麼時候才會讓送到立法院來被查因為大家對於這個global cape的內容現在是收不到一無所知欸你講得出來嗎"},{"start":4213.295,"end":4235.715,"text":"委員的這個疑問我們後續會跟國法會那你講得出勞動部的業務嗎?勞動部會多出哪些業務嗎?勞動部就是個人資料保護的問題我們會配合國法會對於這個隱私跨境隱私資料跨境的配合打擊犯罪的這個部分所以這個跟警政系統的串聯會有什麼差別嗎?"},{"start":4238.305,"end":4245.955,"text":"以個人資料保護隱私的部分為主。我希望可以盡快看到我們送到立法院來,謝謝。接下來我們請林月琴委員質詢。"},{"start":4268.292,"end":4294.138,"text":"有請消防署的署長還有我們的情緒部正次。好,請署長跟正次。兩位好。消防法第一條就明定我們的消防員有三大勤務,就是預防火災跟那個災害救助跟急難救護。所以"},{"start":4294.574,"end":4311.2,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 案件及其其他項目及其其他項目及其其他項目及其其他項目及其其其他項目及其其其他項目及其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其其"},{"start":4312.162,"end":4335.104,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案件事務部門有8個科一個中心4個救災救護大隊一個特收大隊41個分隊4個收救的救助分隊光一個縣市就這麼龐大大概有一個這樣的服務人口比大概1比"},{"start":4336.392,"end":4338.835,"text":"),委員王育敏等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":4354.318,"end":4380.071,"text":"所以商業保險事實上對於消防員也是最高等級所以這樣的業務繁雜、復原廣大、人力吃緊、工作危險再加上24小時的待命、輪休的執勤機制消防人員的工作風險度是比較高的那當然這也是社會大眾也非常的關注就持續關注我們警消人員的工作安全、設備跟勞動條件"},{"start":4381.352,"end":4384.696,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4395.972,"end":4412.416,"text":"公務人員顧主是國家,那跟國家之間的關係受到公法的規定,所以要自行去主張權益的問題上常常就受到法律很多的限制所在,所以這個問題也討論很久了,所以想來問兩位,不知道兩位"},{"start":4413.888,"end":4415.53,"text":"​​議員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4437.032,"end":4462.615,"text":"先跟委員回報就是我們有先前針對縣市消防局消防局的意見是怎麼樣那麼瞭解以後事實上目前有18個消防局不同意入工會法組工會這是第一點那只有一個縣市他認為說可以入工會法但是要限制罷工權這是另外一個狀況那有三個機關是保留態度的一個情形跟委員先做回報"},{"start":4463.476,"end":4470.967,"text":"總共18個縣市事實上是反對的是消防局這邊 那就想問因為全市部這邊的調查裡邊有講說大概"},{"start":4477.742,"end":4503.795,"text":"也就是各縣市我不知道這是調查首長因為剛剛是消防局那你這邊調查總共15個縣市事實上是不贊同贊同的是6個縣市一個無意見的是嘉義市所以想問一下這15個縣市尤其是六都他們的反對跟支持的就反對的理由是什麼尤其是在野黨的國民黨有總共10個縣市是持反對不贊同的意見"},{"start":4504.475,"end":4512.875,"text":"民眾黨也是反對,所以想問一下,你調查的是先是首長,因為他們直接甚至會遇到的問題是什麼,可不可以請全序部這邊回答。"},{"start":4513.783,"end":4541.874,"text":"是因為主要他們認為現在的相關配套沒有完整所以現行還是不宜適用工會法現階段還是適用那個協會法所謂配套的是什麼因為他們可能會遇到的困難會是什麼就比如說他的身份的身份必須要先確定然後相關的這個這個協商的機制在協會裡面沒有辦法得到"},{"start":4542.534,"end":4545.717,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":4565.698,"end":4589.681,"text":"他們是支持工務人員協會法。那消防署這邊想問一下各縣市的消防員對於組工會。剛剛因為你是講局長可是想還是要問的是因為我覺得基層人員的感受事實上是最深。那因為事實上是要保障他們的權益。所以想問一下有沒有做過這樣的一個調查。那他們的觀點有沒有除了工會這個選項以外有沒有其他的觀點。"},{"start":4591.935,"end":4613.757,"text":"議員,這個部分我們要做調查,但是我們現在積極朝向三個部分來進行。是不是方斌跟我們報告?好。是。就職業安全角度來看是要從裝備器材的良好,同時來做執行。這是第一個要件。第二個就是針對整個管理系統來做一個強化。第三個部分整個組織安全文化,這是三個區塊。"},{"start":4615.058,"end":4640.665,"text":"所以在裝備器材的部分目前消防署已經奉憲政院核定23個計畫幾乎快達到200億的經費針對裝備器材、車輛、聽色這個部分來強化我們所謂執行安全的第一個腳步那第二個腳步就是這一次消防法修正案已經在4月30號已經把職業安全的消防法的專章已經報到憲政院應該在最近會報到立法院來做審查"},{"start":4642.005,"end":4650.132,"text":"除此之外：立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生"},{"start":4668.008,"end":4671.511,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．一、審查��"},{"start":4682.759,"end":4686.68,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":4700.725,"end":4704.428,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案件事項》案件事項"},{"start":4721.681,"end":4746.783,"text":"), ️ ️ ️"},{"start":4749.582,"end":4764.036,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":4764.642,"end":4784.323,"text":"對,但是現在如果是我們現在協法如果放寬之後他們幾乎是一個比較對等的夥伴去對話了也不是說有高低這種差異沒有那麼明顯的可是如果整個工會組織它裡面的成員都是像是同樣的一個"},{"start":4786.186,"end":4814.497,"text":"), ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":4814.881,"end":4833.928,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案件及其他公務員擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件及其他公務員擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件及其他公務員擬具 »:工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件及其他公務員擬具 »:工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件及其他公務員擬具 »:工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件及其他公務員擬具 »:工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件及其他公務員"},{"start":4841.445,"end":4844.326,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案。 »:"},{"start":4871.94,"end":4873.141,"text":"徐副長下任之後要去哪裡?"},{"start":4888.899,"end":4893.984,"text":"議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4913.082,"end":4931.453,"text":"其中促進中高齡就業在進入職場的職務設計非常重要目前我們職務在設計的執行率的狀況怎麼樣我跟委員報告一下以去年來講去年我們補助了549家的事業單位人次是2250人這個比111年的1888人增加了20%"},{"start":4939.438,"end":4954.793,"text":"今年截至3月底來算是受了131家的事業單位那608人申請所以我認為這個植物再設計的服務應該這幾年的成效有逐漸增加我請問部長現在有哪些產業來申請?產業?"},{"start":4959.873,"end":4960.113,"text":"指揮部長指揮部長"},{"start":4980.373,"end":5005.252,"text":"那我想問勞動部,我們如何具體提供促進我們中高齡在就業的一個誘因?而依據勞動部的分析,申請的產業是否與現在的中高齡者想投入的產業相符?這個比較重要吧?其實我們各位報告,我們這個職務在設計我們是不分產業,我們都歡迎他們來申請。我們有協助設計中高齡的彈性就業的這個"},{"start":5007.734,"end":5022.674,"text":"有有有這個也有那我希望勞動部要把這工作交接好了因為未來我想也是非常重要的一個工作那也希望說未來的新內閣能夠繼續持續來做這件事情"},{"start":5024.056,"end":5051.204,"text":"那最近外面有許多降低企業勞工組織工會門檻的呼籲希望從現行的30人降為10人或15人請問部長對於降低組工會的門檻勞動部的立場會是怎麼樣?報告委員當然這個降低工會門檻的這個訴求就成立門檻的人數的訴求一直都有這樣的一個參與那有沒有跟經濟部這邊來做跨部會的這個溝通?"},{"start":5055.56,"end":5078.41,"text":"〔主席〕 其實這個部分因為主責單位在關係司他們都有多方包括資方、勞方都有去聽取各界的意見主席認為現在的貧富差距越來越大中小企業競爭力不再是主因而中小企業的個人是國人的就業的一個主因"},{"start":5079.55,"end":5108.97,"text":"繼我們統計的平均每一個中小企業平均壽命只有13年那經營非常的困難那我想政府第一步應該要協助這個中小企業的發展我這個落實勞資的溝通這才是對勞工最好的一個保障當然工會我們的勞工的權益當然要保護但我覺得更重要的他的工作就是中小企業的協助我覺得這個也是重點你再給他再多的權力如果公司倒了"},{"start":5110.011,"end":5116.535,"text":"沒有了那等於零嘛對不對那我再請問一下這個全序部的代表對於警消的工作過勞高危險積極爭取犯官這個警消人員的主工會的這個狀況我想先請問一下勞動部的您的立場怎麼樣"},{"start":5139.056,"end":5166.746,"text":"對,包括委員我們是認為因為他的勞動權我們支持要保障但是我們認為說他的保障路徑因為就是主要他是公務人員的身份那我們認為應該就是在這個公務人員協會法這裡面來落實看如何來強化跟協商他的強化跟提升他的這個擴大他的結社權跟協商權這個是主要的目標跟方向"},{"start":5167.54,"end":5183.467,"text":"那我想請問一下考試院的全序部我們目前有沒有重新提案方向還是朝這個放寬工協會的這個成立門檻嗎?是是那個門檻降低協商內容增加這樣子。好啦這個問題事實上我覺得啦"},{"start":5184.367,"end":5203.113,"text":"僅消人員因為是屬於危牢的一個行業那長期爭取應落實公務人員安全及衛生防護法我覺得這非常的重要第三條的規定我們也希望全序部能制定相關的辦法具體提供僅消人員的安全衛生及防護措施或者是適用"},{"start":5204.073,"end":5207.295,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":5234.053,"end":5258.067,"text":"好吧那我再請問我們的許部長是上次我們談到112年到這個15歲到24歲青年失業率仍然高達11.37%部長跟我說現在已經降到8%多我回去怎麼看怎麼查就找不到你說的數據啊找不到數據有啊"},{"start":5263.659,"end":5284.039,"text":"結果我後來問了勞動部你們發展署跟我說你講的是15歲到29歲但這兩張表根本就沒有15到29歲的統計級距事實上我提問的就是引用勞動部台灣勞工紀刊第72期提出的是針對15歲到24歲的失業率的比較"},{"start":5288.982,"end":5291.263,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5308.947,"end":5321.599,"text":"公務員報告因為我們目前在青年就業齁基本上是以15到29歲那有一些勞動同期我覺得現在是這樣現在問題不在於說幾歲到幾歲重點是說你們提供出來的數據無論是勞動部"},{"start":5324.682,"end":5328.144,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":5347.213,"end":5371.189,"text":"你就是要讓人家誤解嘛 對不對 我希望大家政府應該這樣子啊誠實面對問題這樣子我們才會有進步的空間好不好跟委員報告因為其實我們現在國內針對這個失業的族群主要是15到29歲這個區間可能都需要政府在透過我們這個方案來做一個協助所以我們大概是會聚焦在這個部分那所以你們以後公布就公布15到29歲嗎"},{"start":5373.308,"end":5396.752,"text":" entreprene?你們為什麼要去拉那個奇怪的資料呢?讓人家找不到。這個是主席總書他的統計資料。不過委員您的建議我們在...因為我們這個青年就業、青年失業的改善是針對...也不是不對啦。我們可能另外這個聚焦的部分我們另外做一個統計數據讓大家能夠了解。可能這樣子會誤會。謝謝。好,謝謝邱委員。"},{"start":5402.321,"end":5429.976,"text":"接下來我們請廖偉祥委員質詢。主席好,有請我們徐部長。好,徐部長請。廖仁豪。等一下喔,我先開一下這個PowerPoint。好。"},{"start":5434.224,"end":5435.945,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一�"},{"start":5464.571,"end":5489.915,"text":"我發現我們台灣有一個很特別的狀況我們都知道這個社會問題發生這個的問題在哪裡然後弊病在哪裡甚至可以拿來當作藝術創作拿來改寫成劇本成為民眾的休閒但是我們好像就是沒有辦法解決這個問題業務繁雜過勞高殉職比例工時過長人力不足輪班制度無限上綱不能當吹哨者"},{"start":5491.343,"end":5513.353,"text":"全體的根源在於他們不能為自己發聲對不對這些問題我們都知道但請問部長這是您最後一次的這一周的質詢人將下台其言也善想要請問就你個人而言你同意消防員為自己說話促進消防人員的權益嗎同意你同意嗎那你同意他們組工會嗎"},{"start":5515.355,"end":5533.175,"text":"拜託委員其實發生的方式有很多種那因為消防人員他不是一般的勞工所以他組工會可能在身份上依我們目前的法制是有他的局限性但是就是說沒關係部長就你個人的言你同意嗎"},{"start":5533.715,"end":5555.994,"text":"我覺得可能我們必須考慮到他整個身份問題然後看怎麼樣在目前的他已經有的像公協法來強化、擴大他們的這個造捷權為目標啦。 不長照您的說法就是我只想要簡單的答案就是您同意還是不同意所以您是覺得不同意因為你覺得有其他路徑是這個意思嗎?"},{"start":5556.474,"end":5564.733,"text":"我覺得如果其他路徑也可以達到這個他們訴求的目的,那我們就可以來…好,部長,那我們請全序部的政務次長,"},{"start":5565.836,"end":5592.806,"text":"所以你剛剛講的就是說你要改這個修工務人員協會法嘛那按照今天全序部的報告全序部去年3月才開始送版本還在徵集各部會的表示意見那2021年這個台劇的劇組都比你們了解問題你們到2023年已經送版本到立法院為什麼到今年的3月7號還在問各單位的意見這不是應該去年就做完的事情嗎為什麼到現在還說在溝通意見呢"},{"start":5594.062,"end":5617.154,"text":"我們其實是用開會方式處理啊但是後來這個10月30號送到立法院之後因為屆期不連續推來之後呢我們覺得應該直接徵詢縣市政府的意見好所以到現在還在研議嘛對不對相當的研議整個任期都在研議嘛意見不是大家都早就知道嗎那然後蔡政府也不重視然後你剛剛講了屆期不連續就讓他銷聲匿跡現在你們都已經準備要換"},{"start":5621.52,"end":5624.416,"text":"換內閣了還在演繹那請問你們下一次提版本到底要什麼時候?"},{"start":5625.526,"end":5654.135,"text":"我想這個施政是延續的啦我們這些資料會交下去到下一屆新的內閣會處理基本上還是朝向在協商內容放寬以及參議門檻降低的方面去處理部長、次長那我現在就拜託你們一件事情你們交到下一任的時候可不可以把這個列為最先的優先事項把這個問題解決好不好你們可不可以到時候要求說這個東西你們強烈建議是下一任的內閣的優先事項"},{"start":5655.646,"end":5657.187,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":5676.414,"end":5704.915,"text":"他說改革不及早啟動勞保基金恐怕撐不久民國116年之後財務缺口幾乎是懸崖直接跳到太平洋要救都來不及但是這8年下來沒有見到改革只有自民國109年開始透過用公務預算撥補的方式讓現金流穩定部長現在正在籌編明年度的預算請教部長勞動部原本計畫希望行政院明年撥補多少金額"},{"start":5705.946,"end":5731.455,"text":"包括因為現在在籌編那我們基本上按照過往的經驗政府的撥補應該都會參酌前一年的預算金額來去設定所以應該我想明年的撥補金額應該也不會少不會少就是會很多這樣那明年度至少要撥多少金額才會不會去動用或是變賣國內外的股票或債券跟不動產"},{"start":5732.523,"end":5756.622,"text":"拜託委員因為那個撥補的金額到底要撥補多少還是要看整個財政的狀況那這幾這像去年跟今年整個的勞保基金的投資效益都不錯像去年的話我們的勞保基金賺了1100億他投資報酬率14.44%這個是帳面的金額你有去你有去做你有去把變賣出來變現出來嗎這個當然就是"},{"start":5760.104,"end":5765.429,"text":"公務預算撥補的金額恐怕會有調整但是我想要問你你會建議新的部長或未來行政院長在編列這個撥補勞保基金預算至少要多少金額嗎"},{"start":5785.597,"end":5805.153,"text":"拜訪委員我想第一個是持續撥補這個立場應該不會改變然後金額的部分其實過去我們也認為說希望能夠在財務許可的情況下越多越好部長你剛剛是有提到參考過去的對不對對好所以從這個表我們可以看到今年度共撥了1300億"},{"start":5808.707,"end":5829.686,"text":"μη憑收支差額。但是預估明年度的收支差額應該也至少超過一千三。去年的收支差異是四百四十幾,四四六啦。一一二年嘛。對,我說一一三年。今年度啊。因為這個都是精算報告。這是精算報告預估的啦,報告委員。其實實際的差異數有時候"},{"start":5831.425,"end":5849.421,"text":"),委員王育敏等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體"},{"start":5853.5,"end":5881.455,"text":"後年度的收支差會不會到1800億?報告委員這個是精算報告的數字推估的今年我們還重新做精算報告精算報告不就是要給我們來參考別人預算用的嗎?但是我要跟委員說這是參考數據不是實際會發生的數據可是你都講精算報告我們不是就要先看到這個數字來做營運嗎?我的意思是說政府的撥補他會參考但是也是要橫著他的財務狀況"},{"start":5882.856,"end":5900.373,"text":"好我先要講你看這裡的表基本上你的收支差就是不斷的在擴大嘛如此繼續擴大我們的收支差額恐怕會不會賴清德第一屆總統任內我們勞保基金三兆的資產恐怕會不夠支付所有的法定支出新任的部長會不會是破產部長"},{"start":5902.967,"end":5923.781,"text":"因爲你剛剛有講部長你說股市上漲的時候勞動部就會跳出來宣稱說勞動基金賺了好多錢好棒棒但是這都是帳面價值沒有出清錢都只是數字但對於已經請領退休金額的人來講這個現金流才是重點但是我們的給付並沒有發生任何問題是現在沒有基金餘額到9900多億到3月的時候9900多億你現在沒有當然就是因爲你說公約預算一直來撥補不是不是"},{"start":5933.367,"end":5954.062,"text":"多補當然是一個財源挹注,那去做投資運用那也是增加財源的一個方式。我要再跟委員說我們的這個……好,部長,那我等一下給你看下面的數據。基金就是來填補每年的收支逆差的差距。我們從數據上來看,最近六個月,光是這個年金給付一項,人數從175.9萬增長到182.4萬人。"},{"start":5959.606,"end":5971.533,"text":"擬副金額也從每個月的328.5億增加到340億。這是政府公佈的短期數據是看不太出來有什麼很大的差異性的。但是如果把這數據的時間拉長來看,從108年的2月擬副人數是121.82萬,擬副金額是207億。但是到今年2月已經到了182.4萬人,擬副金額也從207億每個月增長到340億。"},{"start":5987.842,"end":5999.51,"text":"短短五年的時間幾副人數增長了49.75%幾副金額也增長了63.8%部長你知道這代表的意思是什麼嗎?這本來就是在預估的範圍因為已經到一個成熟期"},{"start":6002.118,"end":6026.383,"text":"除此之外﹑其內增的人數本來就會增加所以才說這個勞保的問題我們可能要因為這整個人口結構的改變其實我想這應該也不只我們在關心啦已經講了勞保改革很久了嘛對不對是不是蔡英文找這些人數都是在原來的預估範圍裏面是但是蔡英文找柯文哲到他們總統府談的時候也講了嘛他第一件事情跟他講的就是勞保改革"},{"start":6027.864,"end":6046.845,"text":"議員,現在戰後嬰兒潮的退休潮已經開始了。過去五年的無論是增加給付人數或是增加給付金額都是呈現45度的上揚。但是退休者是依據法令的申請退休和申請給付。所以政策上我想你們能夠做的是不是想辦法延退。"},{"start":6049.281,"end":6070.251,"text":"例如在數據上顯示現在申請擬的年齡的這個極具的高峰是在60到64歲再來才是65到69歲還有55到59歲而媒體調查支持延後退休的年齡也有很高的支持率請教部長除了法定的逐步調高退休年齡外我們還有哪些鼓勵延退的機制"},{"start":6071.957,"end":6087.705,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第16條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第16條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全體委員會及第16次全"},{"start":6097.799,"end":6110.747,"text":" »:我希望說部長你在交接下一任的時候是不是這件事情也請他們誠實面對不要再一拖再拖拖了8年過去的謝謝等一下圖權級委員質詢結束後我們休息5分鐘現在請蘇清泉委員質詢"},{"start":6125.016,"end":6149.792,"text":"謝謝主席。我請部長,還有我們全序部。好,請部長跟次長。蘇委員好。恭喜你。部長,我們政府是最大的僱主。廣義的公務人員全部都是被它庇護的。"},{"start":6151.199,"end":6178.934,"text":"政府是最大的僱主,但是所有的行政單位要組工會都反對。包括我們消防員要組工會,包括我們的警察要組工會,都一再反對。我這裡要肯定我們的勞動部,勞動部一直以來用我們的勞基法這種霸王條款,"},{"start":6180.419,"end":6208.946,"text":"所有的僱主、所有的民間單位如果聽到勞基法都聞風喪膽大家也要怕死你們的處罰又那麼的重所以民間現在照我看起來勞動部真的是規範得非常好啦那你們現在的退休也不錯現在用四萬五千八四五八零零嘛將來說要調到六萬二嘛會不會"},{"start":6225.851,"end":6239.616,"text":"公務人員一年少一趴少一趴少到現在我的提案啊我的提案就是那個警察跟消防隊員要比照軍人的所得替代率高一點要把他恢復"},{"start":6240.495,"end":6252.097,"text":"現在降到現在已經降了7、8%了有的很多都到樓地板了所以我覺得公務人員的將來的退休撫恤的權利會逼得不夠賣"},{"start":6253.869,"end":6281.445,"text":"但是不信我們勞保,勞保今天在執行勞動部,可是勞動部的潛力不止於公家單位的所有員工。所以今天問你是問假的,問爽的而已。對不對?要做一個工會,你怎麼乞乞歪歪,什麼都不要。到底是,中鋼、中油、中華電信都有啊。那為什麼我們政府當最大僱主的,要組個工會,有那麼難嗎?"},{"start":6284.116,"end":6306.07,"text":"全序部回答一下主要那個跟蘇緣包括我們的工人員的體制他相關的環節工人任用法啦工員服務法啦什麼退休法什麼這麼多那他的人事法規你就很壞了啊不會啦我們老人為國兼趨然後入中獵池那個有什麼了用"},{"start":6307.312,"end":6313.514,"text":"每天幹的事都在做亡羊補牢的事情。你們對你們僱員的權益比較屬勞動部、比較屬勞基劃。這真的是我都看下去了。我們就協商內容給他擴大、參議門檻給他降低。以後怎麼再擴大、再降低我們可以再談。"},{"start":6337.245,"end":6363.854,"text":"年輕的警察、年輕的消防隊員,我常常跑基層,幾乎天天跑基層,大家都叫我叫我,大家都希望有工會來替我發聲。老的可能比較沒有衝擊,但是這些年輕人不一樣。我跟你說,會住不住,會遭料料,往後又欺負人,往後的行事又管,"},{"start":6365.268,"end":6388.135,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第6條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第12會期社會福利及生意委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及生意委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及生意委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及生意委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及生意委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及生意委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及生意委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及生意委員"},{"start":6394.315,"end":6395.957,"text":"公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":6417.095,"end":6433.674,"text":"公務部跟那邊的那個協調也非常好嘛,所以我再一次的肯定,我們部長,我們勞動部,但是勞動部這一塊都沒我們的,要怎麼處理,你就給同櫃的好了啦,樂觀其成,來做工會,有什麼人勒,部長。"},{"start":6438.194,"end":6441.697,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":6461.957,"end":6485.988,"text":"只是說你要用什麼一個組織的形態去保障它而且重點是實質的內容啦我覺得那個法可能一個形式但是實質的內容能夠達到保障的目的我覺得這比較重要啦那因為像中鋼 因為它現在已經民營化它基本上不是工人業大部分都是國家的擁有的嘛但是基本上它不是工人業"},{"start":6487.609,"end":6490.011,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":6508.806,"end":6512.449,"text":"候議員,工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件事項有什麼幫忙解決?候議員,工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件事項有什麼幫忙解決?"},{"start":6531.994,"end":6544.883,"text":"我們朱次長我每次看到每次去攻擊每次去參加這些這些這些叫做因公的死亡的啦受傷的每次去家屬都是血裂的痛控訴"},{"start":6546.457,"end":6561.978,"text":"我們都覺得怎麼會有這樣幹的我到國外去看人家就講一個當兵當了10年然後到外面去找工作他軍中那10年的年資跟外面找工作的年資是可以合併的"},{"start":6563.444,"end":6582.173,"text":"我們在臺灣當兵當了19年沒有20年就沒有月退然後19年之前全部歸零然後給你一個什麼退休什麼挖革金一點點錢然後到外面去找工作從頭來你不就要很拚命說你都會住20年以上19年、18年就歸零"},{"start":6587.737,"end":6615.08,"text":"現在就這樣,每天常常都在接陳秦斗,就是這樣。所以這國安部在騙百姓,政府在騙百姓,因為國安早就可以合併了,這個是天經地義的事情,他們絕跡破,好像感覺沒什麼,沒什麼,沒什麼,有什麼辦法嗎?我說這些都是政府最大的故事,不管是軍人,不管是什麼軍工叫警消,都是一樣。"},{"start":6618.089,"end":6621.053,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案。」案。"},{"start":6630.785,"end":6651.976,"text":"你做15年以上就可以擬?15年以上就可以擬部長我再問你中高齡的你的意思就是說中高齡來上班只要顧了他之後就不能隨便辭退他 對不對"},{"start":6653.142,"end":6663.743,"text":"對。不能用65歲為界限。對。65歲為界限。那所謂不能隨便持貴他事用各種理由還是用65歲是一個上限?"},{"start":6665.583,"end":6684.219,"text":"之六十五歲是一個你得啦就是說他如果滿六十五歲你可以強制他退休那你也可以繼續嘛所以他其實這個規定當時候是在保障勞工在六十五歲之前不會被任意的被退休啦"},{"start":6685.981,"end":6688.966,"text":"但是如果你優於勞基法以65歲,我要繼續做,主法也覺得你這個員工我聽說你經驗很好、技術很好,你要繼續。"},{"start":6696.34,"end":6708.152,"text":"除此之外：立法院第11屆第12屆委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案："},{"start":6718.823,"end":6733.809,"text":"我們中高齡高齡者就業促進法當時候就是突破這個限制就是說高齡者這個高齡者他回聘他可以訂定期契約但是你不可以把他聘了你說過兩天你說你滿65歲不能隨便那你說那個那個那個要優惠130%150%那這什麼意思"},{"start":6742.856,"end":6747.562,"text":"財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部財政部"},{"start":6758.696,"end":6772.78,"text":"經濟部主要是經濟部的案子那財政部跟經濟部共同來研究那這個中小企業發展台這個案子已經上禮拜經過這個大院有審查那案子目前現在就是交由黨團協商所以你說要求的130、150都有可能嗎目前行政院的版本是150那我們如果要求200可以嗎"},{"start":6785.294,"end":6800.604,"text":"目前大院有很多委員的版本那目前就是正在跟經濟部還有在跟在黨團協商這樣好因為我在美國齁我在那個達拉斯看到那個shuttle bus開shuttle bus的我問你幾歲啊?他說七十八歲七十八歲就在塞shuttle bus我看他這樣用用啊"},{"start":6809.289,"end":6837.52,"text":"之所以美國七十八個還在開車,美國還在服務的,日本也有,三千也七八十個,所以這個只要他的體力夠,我們又那麼缺,專業人員那麼缺,這些人都是我們可以用的,所以現在醫生七十個還在看病,所以沒有什麼退休年齡,我們勞動部要加油,公務員這邊你要加油,手要伸進去,"},{"start":6838.76,"end":6867.589,"text":"以上,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,我們接續請王以明委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們是不是請許部長還有朱次長。"},{"start":6873.223,"end":6877.835,"text":"王委員好部長好部長你辛苦了最後一周我們還是討論重要的"},{"start":6881.096,"end":6905.052,"text":"公務權益問題我們常常在看這些消防弟兄出生入死但是我們對於他們的權益保障真的是不能只是今日功績明日忘記當每發生一件悲劇的時候政府的官員大家都會說我們要進一步再來保障這些消防弟兄的權益"},{"start":6906.072,"end":6920.551,"text":"但是時間過了之後你就會看到大家並沒有提出更好的辦法所以這是為什麼我們看到有一些消防弟兄他們不斷的上街頭訴求他們要組工會"},{"start":6921.592,"end":6935.683,"text":"除公會就是因為他們覺得他們現行的權益沒有獲得保障他希望改善的事項並沒有全部到位我們可以看到這麼多的過去10年重大這些災害"},{"start":6936.664,"end":6962.086,"text":"有三十幾位消防弟兄這個不幸身亡這個都是悲劇但是我們改善的幅度其實並不大那看看他們的工作量這個整個的他的緊急救護跟他的這個整個出動的這個比例其實他的工作量都是在增加的並沒有下降所以在這樣的情況底下我覺得政府是有責任"},{"start":6962.711,"end":6972.438,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":6988.188,"end":7007.844,"text":"如果說台灣國情不同政府有責任要必須提出一套我們可行而且又可保障的制度而不是一直拖延我現在看到就是無限期拖延這個是不對的如果我們真的正視這件事情立法院什麼事情都是可以辦得到的"},{"start":7008.404,"end":7025.842,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 都應該要去做的。」所以我先問一下這個剛剛部長你有提到嗎你個人是贊成他應該要有團結權的但是現在是怎麼去修的問題那到目前為止你還是認為應該放在公務人員協會法嗎"},{"start":7028.584,"end":7050.278,"text":"除禮嗎?你認為真的可以除禮嗎?可以到位嗎?這個部分當然能不能到位就是要跨部、跨院來協商啦。因為我想之前的草案版本還是有人不滿意啦。是。那我覺得既然是這期不連續退回去以後,我覺得應該是現在大家競速了針對各界的意見,包括委﹑朝鮮今天"},{"start":7050.998,"end":7054.499,"text":"), 委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7075.026,"end":7085.384,"text":"獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":7085.822,"end":7087.344,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":7109.705,"end":7114.97,"text":"這是爭議權是最大的問題我問一下這個次長就是就消防人員他有團結權他有協商權你們會有問題嗎"},{"start":7118.747,"end":7140.184,"text":"我們在協會裡面放進去,沒有問題啊。都沒有問題。那你們現在唯一有疑慮的是不是就是曾毅權的部分,罷工的部分。曾毅權是個疑慮,另外就是剛剛部長也報告過就是說他的法源是來自工人院的用法。所以我們希望在我們這個範圍內盡量給他放寬,而不要倒到外面去。"},{"start":7140.925,"end":7145.366,"text":"公務員及醫護人員都可以組特種協會,依照規定,所以這樣會變成非常非常的,你如果在裡面組OK,如果有些都拉去當公會的話,就覺得公務員就失業了。"},{"start":7160.111,"end":7188.711,"text":"但現在這一些小黃弟兄他們之所以反對你們協會就是覺得你們到協會之後好像就是沒有辦法跟主公會一樣那個權利就是不一樣啊那那個落差你們去了解嗎我覺得最大癥結恐怕就是在最後他有沒有擁有爭議權吧因為有爭議權他協商談判的籌碼比較大但是沒有爭議權的時候事實上就是還是你們說了算如果公部門不同意還是不同意"},{"start":7189.211,"end":7192.658,"text":"主公會沒有爭議權,這樣的模式在台灣可不可以用嗎?"},{"start":7203.592,"end":7220.857,"text":"你如果說其他國家是這樣的體力都沒有開放到爭議權的部分那我們可不可以先跨出一步就是比照他們可行的模式來做現在協議法裡面先把它放寬放低那你們可以放寬到它等同它主攻會同等的這樣的寬嗎"},{"start":7222.722,"end":7229.148,"text":"我問一個問題你們有邀請這些消防弟兄來談這件事嗎我們沒有沒有對話我認為這件事情是需要對話的"},{"start":7243.956,"end":7261.77,"text":"校防署署長來也請上來你剛提到說有這麼多的縣市都反對但是你提的是問了誰啊是問了你們那個各地的局長還是問了縣市首長你那個資訊要清楚不要誤導我們是跟校防局來是啊是"},{"start":7262.21,"end":7278.523,"text":"是啊,那你不要去讓縣市首長背這個鍋啊。局長,你們只是內部調查幾個局長的意見,你不要去代表整個縣市的意見啊。那你們為什麼就不問問消防局弟兄的意見呢?這部分你們又沒有資訊。這就是不對等啊。"},{"start":7279.517,"end":7304.762,"text":"你懂嗎?就是當公部門裡面的長官你掌握所有的這個資源的時候這個是為什麼基層的這些消防弟兄他們現在不滿的因為他們的下情完全沒有辦法上達你看像你們消防署在問意見你是問局長的意見你又不去問這一些基層的意見這樣你得到的訊息就不是一個平衡的聲音啊所以才會有消防弟兄"},{"start":7305.262,"end":7305.762,"text":"),委員彭麗玲議員彭麗玲議員彭麗玲議員"},{"start":7334.654,"end":7361.354,"text":"如果你是可以好好的跟他們討論然後為什麼其他國家可以施行我們好好的來大家坐下來商量就是以保障大家權益為一個最大的原則然後有哪一些情況可能在國內現在或許沒有辦法一步到位大家好好來談我覺得事情是有解的而不是用拖的我現在看到的是大家就拖嘛反正時間過後拖個一兩年沒有人在追立法院沒有人要排案審查這件事情就先放著"},{"start":7362.875,"end":7379.415,"text":"否則,如果你們覺得放在公務人員協會是一個解方的話,方案老早就該提出來,不應該放那麼久,你知道嗎?如果你今天到委員會來端一個很好的方案,把這些消防弟兄訴求的很多在協會這邊多數可以解決,"},{"start":7380.376,"end":7404.901,"text":"我覺得那就一個對話的基礎跟管道大家其實今天就可以有一個很好的討論你們回去再想禮拜三還要逐條審查把你們的方案你們覺得可行的拿出來因為這件事情不是只有立法院委員要推而已你們真正要說服的是每天出生入死這些消防弟兄怎麼感受到我們從中央從權序部從消防署從勞動部大家都是想要捍衛他們的權益的"},{"start":7406.377,"end":7434.195,"text":"這一點要讓他們有感受這個才行接下來下一張大家可以看到為什麼現在大家覺得這個要組工會我們承諾的東西其實都沒有做到消防人力嚴重短缺蔡總統承諾大家每五年補三千人這五年來有三千人嗎沒有到位啊有到位嗎是到位三千一百一十位那同仁所講的沒有到位是因為有退休人力的問題"},{"start":7435.009,"end":7445.417,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":7463.41,"end":7463.51,"text":"除兩年：一、"},{"start":7481.806,"end":7484.549,"text":"人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7500.228,"end":7502.029,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7520.379,"end":7529.204,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及衛生"},{"start":7548.925,"end":7557.631,"text":"然後給消防弟兄更好的保障。謝謝。好,謝謝主席喔。那請我們部長喔。"},{"start":7578.454,"end":7607.053,"text":"好請許部長土委好好部長今天我們是審查處理這個工會法嘛那我們今天國民黨也有提出很多的版本那針對我們放寬消防員組織工會那當然因為最近桃園還有屏東發生了幾場的大火也讓很多的消防人員死傷慘重所以消防員他們自己因此也組織了消防員"},{"start":7608.093,"end":7627.834,"text":"公作權益促進協會那也在去年10月9號凱達格蘭大道也舉行了國殤日的晚會呼籲我們政府要開放消防員得益組織公會那我們國民黨黨團對這個消防員組織公會我們也都是支持那本席"},{"start":7628.554,"end":7652.33,"text":"當初也有把當作政見之一那針對我們要修正工會法第四條跟第六條放寬消防員組織工會那其實這也不是新議題喔那據我們瞭解其實在第八屆國會的時候民進黨的立委就也提過相關的版本要放寬消防員組織工會那這個今天喔可是我們今天好像只看到"},{"start":7653.11,"end":7675.811,"text":"國民黨的版本立委版本跟黨團版本還有民眾黨的版本好像沒有看到民進黨的版本據我們了解我們當初這些提案連署的委員當初是李議員來連署那裡面有很多的委員也有即將高升總統府秘書長的還有我們三位現在也在我們衛環委員會"},{"start":7680.475,"end":7697.55,"text":"μη競黨應該也是支持的才對啊那我們針對我們針對我們這個實質討論我們整理了有關於全序部跟人事行政總處還有勞動部我看了一下你們反對的觀點我們整合了一下好像"},{"start":7698.511,"end":7717.266,"text":"μη反對的不外乎就是消防員跟政府有公法的職務關係還有肩負公共的利益不宜罷工還有我們目前你們好像希望用公務人員協會法只要把這個協會法來優化就可以處理是不是這樣子這個報告委員就是這個也經過跨部跨院的討論主要是公務人員"},{"start":7726.8,"end":7750.352,"text":"主要是警消人員第一他是公務人員的身份第二個就是他的工作牽涉到公共利益所以不反對他們的權益應該要保障本來就應該保障他們的團結學也應該要支持那只是說是不是因為是公務人員大家一體適用不要有切割警消人員另外用一套法"},{"start":7751.372,"end":7773.681,"text":"其他都依照法案沒有我倒覺得我現在我倒覺得我們針對消防員的部分因為我覺得當初這個針對消防員的部分民進黨政府過去也執政8年我們剛剛講之前民進黨很多立委都是支持那我們衛環委員會裡面也很多民進黨立委是支持那這8年來我認為如果"},{"start":7774.361,"end":7800.78,"text":"民進黨執政這些我們這些民進黨的立委如果想要過應該那8年沒有過不了我們剛從105年到113年最後只有在112年10月30號有提了這個協會法那這協會法會提出的原因就是因為我們消防員都跑上了我們凱達哥安大道國殤日晚會在10月9號那個上去陳情"},{"start":7801.54,"end":7810.34,"text":"候來我們才推出這個協會法可是我們看到這個協會法推出之後後來看起來還是不了了之沒有繼續再討論沒有繼續再進行啊"},{"start":7815.327,"end":7831.264,"text":"議員,其實對於警消人員的一些權益的主張政府是很重視的。只是說大家要用什麼路徑去達到他保障的目的。目前認為說不管在體制上法制上"},{"start":7834.747,"end":7859.707,"text":"公協法會比較適當我這邊也是建議啦因為我們看一下我們教師啊教師都可以組工會為什麼消防員不行我們看看他身份法律屬性他也是公法上的職務關係那針對他的法律保障還有保障法規我們消防有消防法協會法那教師有教師法"},{"start":7861.829,"end":7883.978,"text":"其實早在馬英九政府的時候那時候就讓教師組工會所以我也同意消防員來組這個工會但是跟教師一樣我覺得就是列入不得罷工其實教師他是屬於廣義的工人但是他跟消防員的工人是不同他是屬於聘任關係啦"},{"start":7886.719,"end":7909.189,"text":"這兩個在身分上還是有區別希望我們今天消防署署長也有來我針對希望我們還是要為我們這些消防員來多爭取他們的權益因為我們認為像教師都可以組工會消防員看起來也可以組工會我們這要把不得罷工我覺得列入我覺得這應該是可行的"},{"start":7910.169,"end":7924.078,"text":"除此之外,我希望署長及部長在此方面為我們消防員多幫忙。部長,我再請問一下,我們針對我們試用期的約定,這部分我想請部長看一下,這個試用期的約定,我們看一下,"},{"start":7934.765,"end":7950.771,"text":"勞基法的施行細則勞資雙方依工作特性在不違背契約誠信原則下自由約定勞工與適用期制相關勞動權益與一般受僱勞工並無不同。那這個我想請問一下部長這應該是我們勞動部勞動關係司發布的訊息沒有錯吧?"},{"start":7955.56,"end":7957.141,"text":"獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎金獎"},{"start":7975.52,"end":8003.08,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":8004.332,"end":8016.883,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文"},{"start":8032.055,"end":8046.622,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 並沒有禁止適用期。我請問一下,居然勞動部勞基法也沒有禁止適用期,而且我們也有講適用期的約定表示適用期並沒有違法。"},{"start":8048.063,"end":8063.398,"text":"候議員,這個勞基法是最低的規範啦。你只要憂與勞基法,你要違反規定都可以約定。但是勞基法的規範,權利義務,勞資雙方通通要遵守。對,對,對。好,所以我們勞動部"},{"start":8065.78,"end":8091.494,"text":"並沒有禁止適用期而且我們看這個約定就可以知道期間的勞動條件就要符合勞基法對不對對嗎所有約定都要符合勞基法這沒有問題嘛所以在這個母法勞基法的規範之中我們如何訂定就算適用期彼此雙方訂定也不能違反勞基法所以也不能低於最低工資對不對"},{"start":8093.336,"end":8108.217,"text":"對嘛不能低於27470所以在勞基法的規範之下你不管做什麼約定都不能低於勞基法最低薪資27470所以假設我們今天提出我們勞基法的規範"},{"start":8110.37,"end":8125.322,"text":"假設我們今天提出勞基法新增草案條文適用期間之工資除其勞動條件差異而另行約定不得低於應聘工資之百分之八十之外"},{"start":8125.942,"end":8141.329,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12屆第16條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12屆第16條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12屆第16條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12屆第16條條文修正草案．"},{"start":8152.933,"end":8176.932,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條條文修正草案．立"},{"start":8181.915,"end":8195.121,"text":"獅用期間之勞動條件應符合本法之規定本法也就是勞基法所以剛剛你有講不管我們怎麼去訂定就是不能違反勞基法的規定但是你現在"},{"start":8196.141,"end":8199.642,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案"},{"start":8213.507,"end":8234.614,"text":"老公的專業能力才是捷運發行之重要的因素,而不是用一個期間去規範。就算80%,重點是用期間之勞動條件應符合本法之規定,也就是再怎麼樣訂定就是不能低於勞金法的二七十七年。"},{"start":8236.853,"end":8241.615,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。 »: 國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。 »: 國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。 »:"},{"start":8258.123,"end":8258.303,"text":"獎金獎金獎金獎"},{"start":8273.459,"end":8276.541,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8297.756,"end":8302.581,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8321.599,"end":8338.703,"text":"候選人的薪資他一進來你就是看他多少能力多少條件他的專業在哪裡你就給他薪資不是說所謂的一進來一畢業通通我通通給你打八折這樣可以嗎部長我要說明的是這個訂定是不是"},{"start":8339.404,"end":8342.546,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。厲 國民黨黨團擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案》案。厲"},{"start":8369.495,"end":8373.439,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉"},{"start":8393.676,"end":8398.521,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8415.633,"end":8443.148,"text":"這個修改條文黨後面這個對呀就不能低於二期四期年所以報告部長我今天要講的重點是這個條文都可以討論但是我不知道為什麼我們的衛福部準次長在還沒有討論的時候他就在4月30號勞動節的前一天直接說目前勞基法不允許試用期所以剛剛部長我有問你喔"},{"start":8443.988,"end":8470.285,"text":"牢機法並沒有不允許試用期喔而且這個他說變相低薪逃脫牢機法最低薪資規定我覺得這根本就是認知作戰我們提這個條文還沒有討論而且牢機法從頭到尾並沒有不允許我們的次長準次長居然還沒有上任就在網路散播這不實的謠言直接說牢機法不允許"},{"start":8470.905,"end":8478.294,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立"},{"start":8490.568,"end":8516.588,"text":"國民黨團提出這個叫三勞工的薪資根本就是根本就是斷章取義所以我今天重點就是這個條文我們的原意根本就不是這樣部長你很清楚就是不能低於27470居然說我們提的版本是要到達22K可是我也沒有看到我們任何主管單位出來做這個澄清所以我今天希望部長也能夠讓"},{"start":8517.729,"end":8522.991,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 案件及其其其其其其其其"},{"start":8555.645,"end":8562.452,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案。」案。"},{"start":8883.254,"end":8886.578,"text":"好,我們繼續開會。接下來我們請鄭天才委員致詢。鄭天才委員致詢。"},{"start":8902.281,"end":8915.63,"text":"正委好部長好財團法人援助民族文化事業基金會也就是野民台野民台是其中重要的業務他們是要從現在"},{"start":8917.551,"end":8925.374,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8937.244,"end":8959.333,"text":"除了很久開車或是騎摩托車,當然開車比較少,大概都騎摩托車。這是從辦公室搬到那邊是要這麼長。當然基本上他們現在大部分員工都住在台北市比較少,台北市住在汐止或是基隆的地方更遠。"},{"start":8960.82,"end":8987.719,"text":"另外就是裁判法的研究民族研發展基金會他們是要從羅斯福路一段要到桃園大延期的領航路四段一樣騎摩托車的話都要一個多小時如果他從住的地方來去的話也會比較遠"},{"start":8988.869,"end":9006.165,"text":"所以這樣的一個情形之下這個會涉及到員工要調動工作的地點根據勞動基準法第十條之一的第四款第五款"},{"start":9007.42,"end":9026.471,"text":"調動工作地點過遠,雇主應以必要之協助。第五款考量勞工及其家庭之生活利益。因為這個是政府的政策。從台北市搬遷到桃園,明年底就會進駐到那邊。"},{"start":9029.918,"end":9048.243,"text":"請問一下勞動部這邊對於員工的潛意因為畢竟他們也是第一次都不了解這個相關的這些到底應該怎麼樣的協助是不是能夠提供相關的這些案例我會請關西斯王司長這邊針對這個部分來協助員工因為這勞基法規定得很清楚"},{"start":9056.705,"end":9059.649,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案﹑事由：一、審查��"},{"start":9072.654,"end":9072.674,"text":"獲獎獎項目"},{"start":9088.88,"end":9093.082,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9112.312,"end":9113.753,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 案"},{"start":9134.017,"end":9147.756,"text":"另外就是說這個我們經濟委員會上次在審查這個中小企業發展條例這裡面特別針對這個中小企業增顧一定的人數"},{"start":9148.857,"end":9153.199,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9178.456,"end":9185.58,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案﹖第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹖"},{"start":9205.751,"end":9215.806,"text":"兼顧的應該是勞工了好不好協商的時候你們提供寶貴的意見謝謝接下來我們請王正旭委員質詢"},{"start":9231.511,"end":9240.942,"text":"謝謝主席。有請勞動部許部長。還有請正署陳永利副署長。"},{"start":9244.542,"end":9244.702,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":9264.255,"end":9287.16,"text":"那要解決這種緊急狀況尤其是對社會有重大傷害的可能性的時候其實我們都很期待警消能夠趕快到現場把問題解決當然他們權益一定要受到重視的同時也必須要努力去保障他們該有的權益這個應該是社會的共識也是政府要努力去促成的部分"},{"start":9287.92,"end":9306.607,"text":"中高零就業當然也是我們希望針對可以提高國家競爭力持續來關注這都是一直本席很希望能夠從這邊得到大家的回應大家一起來努力不過我們往下一張發現昨天發生一個事情"},{"start":9307.547,"end":9327.878,"text":"積聾勤人無怨居。積聾勤人無怨居就是我以前還沒有到國會來工作之前每天上下班的地方。所以這個地方發生的這個命案對我來講感受特別的深刻。依照目前媒體看到的就是好像有一位來台兩個多月的"},{"start":9328.938,"end":9329.639,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":9344.648,"end":9347.931,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案。」"},{"start":9363.285,"end":9366.707,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案件 》案件 但警方人員到現場的時候事實上已經發生了不可逆的這種結果。"},{"start":9382.863,"end":9401.819,"text":"對我們來講不管是任何的民眾臺灣民眾也好或者是外國的人甚至移工到臺灣來工作我們都不希望發生這樣的命案所以在這個個案上面我們看到的就是語言的障礙造成通報的困難"},{"start":9403.401,"end":9424.856,"text":"除此之外,如果從勞動部我們現在假設這樣的狀況出現,是一個移工的時候,又碰到這樣的語言障礙,那我們有沒有什麼好的方式來解決這樣的困難?警政署這邊有沒有共同可以促成讓這樣的過程不至於再發生的可能性?"},{"start":9425.455,"end":9454.868,"text":"包括委員其實針對這個部分我們跟警政署之間本來就有協助的機制他如果像移工如果他打1955給我們我們就會有專人那個包括英文甚至泰語剛剛像這個是太極老公泰語都我們會有通訊人員來協助那甚至如果是110的話我們還有三方通話的協助機制所以這個應該是有目前是可以有"},{"start":9455.384,"end":9456.347,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具"},{"start":9464.616,"end":9486.665,"text":"這個案我來跟委員報告這個案是當可能報案報案者他可能顧及他自己的語言怕所以他不是第一時間跟警方報案就剛剛的過程剛剛委員有描述過那其實剛剛證實說我們勞動部講的其實我們警政使跟勞動部平常就有做他們的協商的機制就是一般我們"},{"start":9488.406,"end":9515.66,"text":"公的諮詢保護專線就是1955,那如果說他第一時間打給1955,1955會通報我們。如果他打給我們,如果說像可能他講地方他們的方言,我們可能因爲警署中心不一定會通,那我們可以透過打給1955形成三方通話,其實就可以完成整個瞭解狀況跟報案的程序。所以目前的機制是可以,只是說可能就"},{"start":9516.62,"end":9533.888,"text":"稱呼委員剛指導的要我們要加強來先導包括移工包括我們的同仁等等能才能夠應用的比較鮮熟以上是所以聽起來機制是有的方法也有的可是就是執行的時候難免會有落差嘛吼那包括說現場的需不需要同意人員"},{"start":9534.728,"end":9536.229,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":9563.882,"end":9581.408,"text":"), ️ ️ ️"},{"start":9581.548,"end":9582.309,"text":"​​擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。​​​​"},{"start":9597.799,"end":9624.656,"text":"那保障這個警消權益剛剛已經提到了嘛那我們再往下看其實我們也知道這個警消組工會的訴求一直以來都是很關心他們希望得到社會的認同同時也可以去讓他們的這個訴求可以得到更多的重視不過我想主要的核心問題還是權益必須要被政府部門能夠重視而且要提供完整的保障"},{"start":9625.896,"end":9654.862,"text":"早上已經有很多委員提過相同的問題那再請教就是說在落實這個保障方面目前我們政府部門做了哪一些的努力那個報告委員其實那個消防署這邊其實針對警消人員的一些訴求消防人員的訴求他們其實都有一些計畫早上他其實也有說明那個可能署長這邊來說比較清楚是不是請署長上來說明一下好"},{"start":9658.598,"end":9678.453,"text":"委員好感謝委員關心消防事實上消防在這兩年有蠻大的一個進展一個部分就是消防法修正目前新的消防法修正包括治安專章已經報到憲政院5月10號報到憲政院應該最近會報到大院來審查當然對於權責的部分就是法律權責已經處理了"},{"start":9680.354,"end":9705.215,"text":"對於保職安的部分我們對於消防法專章的處理這個已經列入進去有10條的條文另外為了讓這個不是光是法律免執行免所以我們提了一個5年的忠誠計畫針對消防警員的職業安全當然職業安全絕對不是一觸可及就透過輔導團隊跟限制的消防警員怎麼互動這是我們在努力的地方"},{"start":9705.995,"end":9717.322,"text":"人力的部分也是我們充實的一個努力方向目前特考班我們預計要招收每年1000位專科學生請專學生會400位讓這個部分來做處理當然裝備器材聽測這個部分我們有23個計畫正在執行當中那應該是在未來幾年會有差不多200億的薪水會投注在我們消防裝備器材聽測這個區塊"},{"start":9729.168,"end":9758.317,"text":"當然消防營運的訓練專業能量這也是我們目前在訓練中心執行的地方跟委員請他做回報謝謝好謝謝所以我們除了讓他安心以外也要請他們放心政府各個部門尤其主管部門都有努力的在幫他們爭取各種權益的同時也能夠讓他們當初訴求有關於他們的這個放假啦或者是過勞啦或者是相關的這些權益都會得到相關的保障"},{"start":9758.797,"end":9787.295,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":9787.295,"end":9816.483,"text":"除此之外,我們所看到的我們本來補了307位或者是需要的量反而是越擴大隨著這個需求反而是在補足的部分不僅沒有減少反而在擴大當中這個部分勞動部目前有沒有更好的方案或者是有相關的研究已經有結果讓我們知道未來在補足的部分有哪一些更好的措施可以讓這個整個市場的需求可以更為完整"},{"start":9818.123,"end":9837.58,"text":"瓜委員,我們這個改善擴大缺工的這個就業方案大概執行就是到6月底。6月底執行完畢,我們大概會有一些成效來檢討,也跟跨部會看後續,針對這個缺工的議題要怎麼再來做一些有效的改善。"},{"start":9839.201,"end":9863.926,"text":"除此之外,因為我們這個擬具草案其實有設定一些條件還有薪資條件所以有些部分比如說他們原來說有多少缺口可是當你開出薪資條件的門檻的時候有些他就沒有來但是無論如果他願意來的我們都有積極協助我們都三倍四倍人數能夠讓他們來挑選勞工來協助當然也配"},{"start":9868.647,"end":9872.832,"text":"〔主席〕 最後我們看到的就是希望把這些成果能夠做個檢討我們再往下看到最後一張"},{"start":9886.027,"end":9906.038,"text":"就是也期待勞動部能夠適時的提供相關的資訊讓這個政策的目的可以達到更好的成果那也希望把相關的資料提供給本席做這個參考謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝王振旭委員接下來我們請黃秀芳委員進行質詢"},{"start":9913.861,"end":9916.922,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長。好,有請許部長。黃委員好。部長好。部長我先請教就是我們勞動部在這個彈性育嬰流脂停薪在這個月的9號開始試辦。那我想請教就是說我們這個彈性育嬰流脂停薪我們有說"},{"start":9938.952,"end":9940.393,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":9965.855,"end":9993.013,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 條件是比我們勞動部所規定的還要寬鬆的。」這個你們有去做一個統計嗎?他是說之前64家有比較寬鬆的嗎?就是比你們勞動部原本所規定的還要再寬鬆一點。有嗎?有。有。你們本身有去做統計?是。就是我們現在是原則五天嘛。原則五天。那也有比五天還少的吧?有。"},{"start":9994.133,"end":10013.241,"text":"對所以目前目前有是那現在我們這個申請喔就到5月底之前都可以了是就是有有意願的企業單位我們還是歡迎他來申請示範是那已經提出了64家我們統計是有優於就是比那五天還少的是那個企業單位好"},{"start":10014.401,"end":10035.308,"text":"除此之外,我可否要求你們在這四份當中,比如說到年底,你們應該也要再去做一個統計。整個勞工申請的狀況,或者是意願,或者是整個大家覺得說這樣好不好用。我覺得你們到年底的時候應該要再去做一個統計。"},{"start":10037.209,"end":10037.229,"text":"), 委員"},{"start":10049.13,"end":10051.632,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹚一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":10077.91,"end":10081.532,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 〉"},{"start":10104.747,"end":10126.562,"text":"議員包委因為現行的規範本來就是每30天發放一次那因為我們之前的規定就是因為考量到說有些是因為我們現在是期出發給我們都是每個月都是期出就發給錢發錢給他那有些會提早復職或者他會有零頭因為6個月不會剛好"},{"start":10128.423,"end":10136.706,"text":"除此之外,假設6月只停了三天,時間就到了。所以當初就想說為了檢證辨明,因為還要追遣也麻煩,就檢證辨明。所以那時候就是未滿一個月,我們仍以一個月計。現在我們可以這樣子彈性的來...報告委員,因為現在是事辦,事辦的我們還要觀察,"},{"start":10155.332,"end":10161.131,"text":"對未來事辦的結果我們來檢討也聽任各界一定該修我們就修所以你們你們現在是要怎麼計算"},{"start":10164.002,"end":10167.144,"text":"兆元乃兆元乃兆元乃兆元乃兆元乃"},{"start":10192.381,"end":10203.589,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 規定是這樣的,事辦其實就是希望能夠瞭解勞工的訴求在實務的現場,所以我們就想說等事辦完畢以後再來檢討會比較好,當然就是說這個法令跟我們實際的應該要"},{"start":10211.015,"end":10216.016,"text":"除此之外﹑委員王育敏等21人擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案》案, 並擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案》案, 並擬具"},{"start":10236.34,"end":10255.006,"text":"議員,我接下來請教外送平台。我看到勞動部有在3月18號有特別發文給這兩個外送的平台。甚至我們司長也有親自拜會這兩大平台。"},{"start":10256.506,"end":10274.589,"text":"對啦,那就是說可能就是說道德勸說這個外送費用的透明化或者是明確化啦那我想請教就是說你們在3月18號發文給這兩個這個外送平台那他們有回覆了嗎?還沒有,是。"},{"start":10276.148,"end":10292.394,"text":"報告委員,到目前為止他們還在研議,不過我們在5月29號要開下一次第六次的平台會議,那我們會在當天就是這個議題會列我們當天很重要的一個討論的一個事項。 是,那如果他都一直不回覆你們勒?"},{"start":10293.034,"end":10320.279,"text":"公務員報告我們有提到因為保障他們的新報酬的方法途徑如果他覺得用這個方法不是對他們來講不是最理想的做法因為都有公會在我們是雙方就平台的溝通他們可以提出另外一些什麼樣的做法跟比較具體的一個確保我們外送員的報酬能夠比較穩定和預設性然後當場勞資雙方可以來做一些溝通再找看比較適合的方法"},{"start":10320.879,"end":10331.646,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13屆第"},{"start":10351.279,"end":10353.36,"text":"​​國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案。​​​​"},{"start":10377.071,"end":10398.581,"text":"我們一定會保障衛生委員的權益政府該有什麼態度就應該是要展現出來我們是希望大家能夠是和諧的去把問題解決當然如果相應部裡該有的政府的公權力就要拿出來我相信未來新的部長也會支持接下來我是不是請消防署署長好不好"},{"start":10406.125,"end":10432.756,"text":"組長好,在這幾年當中,消防員為了打火造成傷亡的事件非常的多。我相信很多的消防員他們最期待就是說第一個你裝備一定要齊全,所有的裝備一定要齊全。有的打火兄弟他一進到火場也許"},{"start":10433.896,"end":10434.157,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":10456.334,"end":10478.038,"text":"感謝委員這麼關心消防事實上真的要達成安全要三個層面剛才委員講到第一層面就是裝備、器材、車輛、廳舍這個部分閒置員已經准了23個計畫那未來幾年應該差不多有200億的經費會投注在整個在B線所以你逐年要多少會撥入五年差不多200萬每年至少差不多400萬的經費40萬的經費會投注在這個五年多少200億"},{"start":10484.159,"end":10504.571,"text":"五年兩百億對目前都已經核定的所以這個部分在中備汽車車輛這個部分已經在執行當中那另外就是要達到管理的一個層面所以我們現在消防法修正了增加我們消防法的治安專章那這個案子已經報到縣政院那最近會報到大院裡面來做一個審查"},{"start":10505.632,"end":10510.298,"text":"), 委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":10525.856,"end":10526.277,"text":"公務員陳菁徽"},{"start":10546.398,"end":10557.831,"text":"除不由上而下來雙重做這方面建制是比較能夠達成這樣的目標那也不是一個說要成立工會或者要成立協會這個就可以達得到"},{"start":10558.251,"end":10567.139,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":10584.113,"end":10605.556,"text":"當然就是說我們希望消防員的這個權益要保障就剛剛署長講的你五年現在要投入200億可能就是說整個裝備或者是整個設施就投入那當然就是說我覺得第一線的這個人員的這個現場火場當中的這個這個判斷就我覺得也非常的重要"},{"start":10605.896,"end":10621.903,"text":"), ️ ️ ️"},{"start":10622.143,"end":10625.586,"text":"μη維亞有職業安全文化的概念那消防營運的養成教育目前會調整成一整年對技術的一個教育訓練目前這個制度跟做法已經確認"},{"start":10645.043,"end":10645.363,"text":"μη竹芳委員"},{"start":10672.752,"end":10679.616,"text":"主席,各位大家午安,是不是請我們許部長還有,先許部長好了。好,請許部長。另外好。保證,可能是最後一次,不然還有禮拜三。"},{"start":10691.162,"end":10699.569,"text":"主委先跟你祝福啦。不過我今天還是要先來談一下這個健全就業安全的這個體系的問題。我是要談這個救保法。"},{"start":10710.555,"end":10729.36,"text":"從2003年開始上路施行到現在經歷了兩次的很重大的危機就是這個2008年的金融海嘯還有這個COVID-19的疫情那勞動部認為這個就業保險法這個是不是有需要擴大適用對象的檢討的必要"},{"start":10730.782,"end":10739.058,"text":"除此之外：立法院第16屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":10740.134,"end":10763.308,"text":"我跟您討論第一個就是擴大納保對象。那我們講這個是因為這個就業保險的立法一旨一開中民意就講勞工的就業技能促進提升勞工的就業技能促進就業保障勞工職訓及失業一定期間的基本生活所以這個很重要"},{"start":10764.068,"end":10784.357,"text":"那我們看了一下從這個就業保險投保單位及人數統計月報一百一十三年二月底納保人數總計七百三十萬九千三百二十九人但是呢比對人力資源運用調查"},{"start":10786.818,"end":10789.799,"text":"獲獲者人數計有930萬6千人,其中私人僱用者827萬8千人。就保法依法法定涵蓋的這個對象涵蓋率大概88.29%。"},{"start":10809.603,"end":10812.105,"text":"則在這種狀況顯示受僱者仍然有11%是被排除就業保險安全網之外而且我們看經歷了COVID-19的疫情透過這個特別紓困條例提供的就業安全的措施你們已經有經驗了就是說其實你們"},{"start":10829.153,"end":10856.127,"text":"除了自營作業者和65歲以上的勞工,這一個缺失在COVID-19的時候,你們變成說無法救濟他們。我們那時候那個補貼是針對那個無一定僱主跟自營作業者職業工會。但我記得那時候只要他有投入債保,有加債保的都有用。您的補貼不是用救保啦,您是就業安定基金啦。"},{"start":10858.773,"end":10862.596,"text":"僱用安定措施是來自於就業安定基金,那我現在講的是這個救保。"},{"start":10876.505,"end":10879.966,"text":"我第一個跟你討論就是要來擴大納保對象第一個我們就先從這個要納入所謂的經濟依賴型的自營作業者經濟依賴型的話如果從西班牙制定了一個自營作業者法它有訂定一個經濟依賴型的自營作業者"},{"start":10903.571,"end":10921.911,"text":"公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16期社會福利及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第16期社會福利及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第16期社會福利及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第16期社會福利及第六條條條文修正草案．立法院第17期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及第18期社會福利及"},{"start":10923.533,"end":10925.274,"text":"Carlos Alonso Alonso"},{"start":10939.128,"end":10957.802,"text":"μη在COVID-19期間其實也有看到一些困難一些問題當時就在講說有必要要檢討將自營作業者納入就業安全網才不會在COVID-19期間發現制度沒有辦法保障接不起他們所以才用這個安定基金去接"},{"start":10958.602,"end":10963.846,"text":"兆元兆元兆元兆元兆元兆元兆元兆元兆元兆元兆"},{"start":10976.636,"end":10983.362,"text":"而且這個擬具的這個期限或者是說承諾簽署個人將積極尋求這個就業接受合適的工作並參與公立就業服務機構提供的特定獎勵資訊職業訓練和就業推介為要件所以這個部分部長或者是我們部裡面有什麼看法"},{"start":11003.094,"end":11005.895,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 案 》案 。"},{"start":11020.52,"end":11040.265,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":11040.605,"end":11065.162,"text":"第二個擴大納保的對象就是跟我們今天講的有關的當我們在講說要取消掉這個法定的強制退休年齡然後不得這個強迫退休65歲以上的勞工那這種狀況裡面我們看到推動中高齡在就業如果要持續的開發65歲以上的這個勞動力那我們也應該要提供就業安全的保障啊"},{"start":11065.902,"end":11067.084,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":11081.583,"end":11083.684,"text":"﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":11098.993,"end":11109.2,"text":"除此之外：立法院第16屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第24會期社會福利"},{"start":11118.786,"end":11118.806,"text":"公視勸勸勸勸勸勸勸勸勸勸勸勸勸勸勸"},{"start":11147.645,"end":11173.436,"text":"報告委員其實這個部分我們現在日本是我們那時候討論就是說像日本他是只發給一次性的失業給付他就不是六個月這樣子然後像韓國你說在已經請領老保老年給付之後對那他如果失業我們就給他一次性的給付那韓國是怎麼樣那韓國他是"},{"start":11174.652,"end":11177.416,"text":"兼具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":11191.613,"end":11218.933,"text":"獎項獎項獎項獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":11219.724,"end":11248.495,"text":"但是我們我現在要告訴你說部長14天等太期之前你要請你事業給付的第一關就是你是非自願性的離職的而且他本來就要到公立就業服務機關辦理求職登記日他已經有去辦理了那你還叫他等14天我是說現在因為你覺得14天沒什麼可是對很多人來講這14天的這個生活衝擊很大的也有"},{"start":11249.456,"end":11250.057,"text":"因為他第一個"},{"start":11252.298,"end":11276.647,"text":"他是非自願性離職的啦。非自願性的離職然後在這種狀況裡面失業給付本來就要發揮的就是急難、救急他是一個及時雨那要幫助勞工度過這個難關那更何況 ILO促進就業和失業保護的公約第18條第1項他有講喔謝謝"},{"start":11279.568,"end":11292.739,"text":"如果成員國的立法規定在全失業的情況下是有在等待期期滿後才能開始支付津貼但這一個等待期不得超過7天"},{"start":11295.041,"end":11302.586,"text":"而我們現在的就業失業給付的等待期14天比ILO建議的還要嚴格如果你去參考日本的僱傭保險的失業津貼非自願離職多數不可抗力的理由離職離職後日本也是7天當然日本比我們更優渥因為他們還有自願離職的給付"},{"start":11325.097,"end":11350.222,"text":"自願離職的給付但我們今天暫時就不討論這個所以這個部長這個有沒有檢討的空間呢?包括委員我們其實內部有討論吶吼那認為說應該是要再縮短再縮短比照ILO很好標準吶好那可以做得到那我再講第二個要降低的這個不合理的給付的規定就是要降低啟動延長失業給付門檻現在失業給付是6個月嘛"},{"start":11355.946,"end":11368.719,"text":"五歲以上還有身障可以自動門檻能低的大概延長給付到九個月。當然我們現在規定是最長是所有個月,但條件比較嚴苛。但是45歲以下的,"},{"start":11372.963,"end":11374.904,"text":"條條件比較嚴格,就是你的這個舊保失業率再加上中央主計機關發佈失業率連續4個月為降低才能領到9個月,或者是你要領12個月的話必須舊保失業率"},{"start":11398.059,"end":11402.363,"text":"再加上中央組織機關發布失業率連續8個月沒有降低這個外部條件都符合了才能讓你延長領到9個月或12個月所以"},{"start":11415.556,"end":11417.638,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":11445.256,"end":11450.478,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":11468.806,"end":11483.96,"text":"其始就業保險的給付除了失業給付還有一個其實是很不錯的就是提早就業獎助津貼制度上我們也提供了誘因並不是說你繼續領領月長月老其實我們你早一點的去就業找到工作我們也有津貼嘛"},{"start":11490.746,"end":11519.131,"text":"所以這個東西我們是希望說這個津貼講提早就業津貼也有配套所以你卻刻意讓這個延長失業給付的門檻這麼高讓我們看得到吃不到那也很難發揮就業安定的政策效果因為真的有人真的很難找工作了其實很多因素很多因素那第二個理由是說"},{"start":11520.731,"end":11543.88,"text":"我要跟你討論說,就業保險失業率本身就是一個落後指標。你們要讓它0到9個月角12個月都要看就業保險失業率再加上社會的這個整體的失業率。可是呢,我們要講就業保險失業率是一個落後指標。你們自己在COVID-19的時候,你們自己就深受其害,就知道了。"},{"start":11544.5,"end":11551.024,"text":"我很久以前就跟你們講說這個減班休息無薪假你們這一個門檻要連續三個月就保險失業率要連續三個月達到2.2%以上太高所以你們修正下降到1.1%可是在COVID-19疫情的衝擊下你們現在才發現說連1%這樣的規定"},{"start":11572.677,"end":11581.925,"text":"因為那是落後指標嘛,所以來不及啟動這些受COVID-19衝擊的這些人。所以你們要提這個安心就業計畫,結果你們沒有法源,沒有辦法有錢來給他們,所以你們後來才變成說拿就業安定基金去紓困嘛。"},{"start":11594.995,"end":11608.121,"text":"所以你們後來光是就這一點你們也把一趴的啟動門檻也拿掉了所以你們就改由僱用安定措施的這個諮詢會議去期待這個幾%的規定比較有彈性嘛那同樣的我們也是希望你說延長失業給付這樣子的這個條件和門檻也應該要更有彈性你一直把它綁在"},{"start":11620.407,"end":11634.411,"text":"你都知道就業保險率是落後指標而且是來不及反映也來不及承接這一些失業的勞工所需要的生活上的衝擊所以是不是也應該要一併的檢討這樣的一個落後指標應該取消而且更應該要彈性化一點那降低啟動延長失業給付的門檻簡單的說啦"},{"start":11646.795,"end":11649.797,"text":"事業給付6個月要延長到9個月延長到12個月你現在的指標和門檻應該要檢討了這樣子可不可以謝謝委員這個部分我們來檢討我覺得應該要檢討你要走了你要交給下一任的部長對沒問題業務單位業務單位在這裡啦業務單位要記得喔在這裡承諾的喔"},{"start":11671.912,"end":11699.85,"text":"六十五歲以上要納保經濟依賴型的這個自營作業者也要納保然後這個要縮短失業給付14天變成7天然後要降低啟動延長失業給付的門檻就剩四個好謝謝委員會重點交接好謝謝好我們委員會持續監督謝謝林淑芬委員接下來我們請牛許廷委員"},{"start":11709.211,"end":11712.497,"text":"謝謝主席,部長有請。好,有請許部長。"},{"start":11715.834,"end":11738.262,"text":"委員部長午安這個我們就直接進入主題今天兩個部分一個是因為剛剛有委員幫我們試圖在解釋這個勞基法修正的一些東西我們做一些釐清第一個要請問這個部長這個試用期如果法制化的話會不會導致低於最低工資22K這樣的情況重新出現報告委員我們的這個一目解勞基法我們的薪資"},{"start":11739.582,"end":11747.949,"text":"就是不能低於絕對不低於勞基法的最低保障對不對所以不會有22K的問題嘛即便是用集法之話之後對不對因為法律之間不會彼此矛盾對不對好謝謝喔 不會對不對"},{"start":11754.985,"end":11778.287,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案件是在於是不是要打八成的問題啦。你先聽我講完嘛。謝謝你打臉王定宇委員,因為他是造謠說會有22K,但沒有這個事嘛,因為法律之間不會逼之抵觸。在這個地方當然這個八成樓地板的這個問題有可能導致定貓效應,這個本席願意承認。但是"},{"start":11778.507,"end":11794.735,"text":""},{"start":11795.195,"end":11823.749,"text":"規定薪資2萬6千4那是因為去年還沒有調到2萬7啦有貫車司機應聘薪資4萬規定薪資2萬6千4國中應問輔導老師他4天就離職了所以適用期長度大概是不止4天但是一樣應聘薪資4萬規定薪資2萬6千5技術員3萬4千4百7到5萬9百3不等因為這個看表現決定業務工程人員應聘薪資4萬規定薪資2萬5這些案例也有可能不多但部長既然都打了勞資爭議的官司他們存不存在"},{"start":11827.989,"end":11845.388,"text":"候議員,因為本來適用期勞工法是沒有規定,但是我們就是說你雙方同意,勞工雙方同意,我們也尊重,但是你所有的適用期勞工的保障都是要"},{"start":11845.908,"end":11846.308,"text":"除此之外﹑"},{"start":11862.401,"end":11862.881,"text":"議員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":11882.806,"end":11906.037,"text":"主義勞工的權益我知道內容我們待會會討論但我只是要藉這樣子的一個機會部長有這樣子的一群勞工他人數少但是他是真正弱勢中的弱勢也許你可以講八成這個數字有點太危險有可能知識體大這本席願意承認但是我們修正法的初衷是要照顧這一群陰影裡面最弱勢的勞工希望大家可以瞭解第二個我要問這個部長的問題適用期有沒有違法目前的狀況適用期是不是違法的行為"},{"start":11910.35,"end":11929.923,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":11930.063,"end":11944.897,"text":"在勞基法上沒有所謂適用期非適用期勞工啦我簡單這樣子講你可以約定做可以約定嘛所以它就不是違法行為嘛對不對對不是違法但是你的所有的規範所有的規範你只要是照勞基法就可以了"},{"start":11945.117,"end":11945.237,"text":"​​國民黨團擬具"},{"start":11960.262,"end":11986.209,"text":"沒關係我也不希望他們用造謠的方式來抹黑我的法案但是沒關係我們進入實際上的討論我已經公開已經說了沒有八折的問題我們已經把這個東西拿掉因為爭議很大我也講我承認這個修法的過程中還需要審慎的討論但是今天要借用一點點時間我還有問題要問這現行試用期法無明文的規定但你剛剛也講這不是違法那會不會衍生勞資爭議"},{"start":11987.995,"end":12006.834,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":12007.795,"end":12025.39,"text":"除非有明確規定有明文規定否則我這個叫執訓啊這個不叫適用啊這個沒有勞動契約的沒有勞動契約的時候他就不是雇用關係的他就會出現這樣子的一個勞資爭議所以我今天提這個適用期法制化的概念是因為勞資目前的情況下權利物關係不明確第一個問題我要問部長部長"},{"start":12029.225,"end":12047.631,"text":"​​ 現在按現行的狀況以下時間有沒有明文規定沒有對不對有可能三個月有可能六個月可能九個月對不對不是包圍要合理啦你不能說適用期一年啊半年啊這不合理吧現行就是講好就好那有沒有可能超過三個月或者是沒完沒了極端的狀況有可能對不對有可能啦好謝謝"},{"start":12049.412,"end":12066.789,"text":"第二個我要問的是現在以勞動部的瞭解各行百工百業裡面是不是每一個公司都可以很清楚的告訴他的勞工我做了哪些事我可以通過試用期你有辦法保證說大家都很好的做到了這件事嗎應該有困難對不對不然回答一下"},{"start":12071.783,"end":12086.474,"text":"委員我不知道你的意思是什麼欸我的意思是說大家約定有一個試用期的期間對不對但是我總要通過一些事情才要通過才能夠轉正嘛這個中間轉正的那就看他們雙方的約定的內容啊這個約定有沒有明確以你勞動部目前掌握它是明確的還是不明確的"},{"start":12089.587,"end":12113.88,"text":"公司可能很明顯簽個契約有些是不是講一講那講一講萬一兩邊認知不一樣是不是也會變成勞資爭議是嘛對不對所以如何通過這個權利與關係不明確嘛第三個我就要問了是不是每一個在試用期中間討論這些都可以好聚好散勞工都可以拿到資遣費不一定喔在法無明文的情況之下自立自強的情況之下有"},{"start":12115.171,"end":12139.747,"text":"法律沒有我剛講過啦他有沒有寫這個他都按照勞基法都要給他的資遣費都要給啊來這個判例就是一個沒有給的沒有給的案例嘛因為這個判例講的是華航這個講的是華航安理講說這是勞僱契約的前期階段不適用勞基法法定宗旨是有如果他們實質的約定內容是職業訓練那是就尊重就是怕掛羊頭賣狗肉啦是嘛"},{"start":12141.368,"end":12163.187,"text":"所以今天我們在討論很多勞動現場其實很多就是因為權利義務關係不明確衍生了很多的勞資糾紛啦我是希望在這個場合上把這個修法的初衷講清楚不要大家在如果心智有爭議我們可以先擱置但是這幾項時間通過的標準跟如何好聚好散確保勞工可以拿到資遣費我想這些東西在法律上是有完善的空間部長應該不會反對我這樣說法才是啊"},{"start":12164.139,"end":12181.69,"text":"按照現在的規定他就是要給他相關的所有的權益義務通通要照勞基法這些判例告訴你實務現場有的時候判是判勞工書啊我是很擔心這樣的狀況啦對不對部長這是有可能我希望勞動部去了解一下但是你縱使明文法律明文規定還是會有爭議在啊不然為什麼這麼多的"},{"start":12184.552,"end":12209.687,"text":"來我希望勞動部做個功課啦好不好也希望你跟新任的勞動部長好好講一下就是說在試用期實務上是存在的法無明文的情況之下你們應該有累積了很多的勞資爭議的判例跟狀況跟問題喔我開放心態包含政府你也可以提供好的修法意見啊我們如何在這些實務存在的問題情況下去保障勞動權益給予修法的權益好不好的建議啦我是覺得他有些觀點"},{"start":12210.928,"end":12228.628,"text":"對有些不見得所以有的有判有的沒判嘛我們現在討論這個每個判決其實也都不一樣我現在請勞動部做調查也就是說你們了解最多勞資爭議的實際上發生的狀況目前針對適用期各項權利與關於不明確的問題喔如果要用修法的方式來保障的話請你提供一些修法的建議好不好"},{"start":12229.409,"end":12229.429,"text":"拜託。"},{"start":12258.552,"end":12275.042,"text":"公會的事情當然是知識體大這本席願意理解但是我要告訴署長為什麼這麼多人現在去支持這個事情就是因為政府現行的機制下對於很多基層的權益是沒有辦法被充分保證我舉一個例子我曾經在內政委員會好早以前幾個月的質詢前我就講勤務加給要趕快給給了嗎"},{"start":12277.193,"end":12296.8,"text":"), ️ ️ ️"},{"start":12297.2,"end":12323.45,"text":" »:有的你有很多的理由跟藉口讓這東西很慢的時候當然基層會覺得自己沒有被照顧到啦你政府方端有政府端的版本我看報告裡也沒有寫得很清楚但沒關係我們就藉由這樣的機會來充分討論但我希望你這個保障權益的腳步要積極啊要不然你逼著他用用組工會的方式來來成為談判籌碼對不對不也就很難看嗎對不對所以我希望可以得到加擠的部分趕快得到正面回應可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝牛雪廷委員"},{"start":12326.851,"end":12335.318,"text":"正正前正正前正正前委員不在盧憲一盧憲一盧憲一委員不在我們請劉建國委員質詢好謝謝主席有請部長好請許部長"},{"start":12347.83,"end":12375.817,"text":"副總,今天是你最後的一天了。在這邊的最後一天備詢了。我還沒有講完啦,你都這麼緊張。我說今天是你在委員會接受備詢的最後一天。你也是中華民國在職最久的勞動部部長。有沒有什麼樣刻骨銘心的感言要跟委員會簡單做一個闡述一下。給你一分鐘。"},{"start":12377.168,"end":12395.298,"text":"我是很謝謝有這個機會來擔任這個全國勞工兄弟姐妹的大工頭,大工頭。我也努力把握這個每一天的機會來能夠為勞工多做一點事情,但是當然沒有辦法做到"},{"start":12396.579,"end":12401.244,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":12416.515,"end":12431.286,"text":"好,謝謝部長。我會珍惜這個委員會最後一次。我還是要再提醒部長,在新屆部長交接之際,有一件事情一定要非常慎重來面對,就是移工失聯的問題。在2月16號,我們台運就用這個簽署視訊的MOU,然後3月6號衛環也排了這樣的一個"},{"start":12439.873,"end":12442.435,"text":"具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具具"},{"start":12454.326,"end":12468.362,"text":"除此之外,我們要怎麼去面對這個問題?這個絕對沒有辦法門戶過關,因為部長已經要到任的,所以先任部長來克布隆瓦尼要面對這個事情。但是我知道你們有在準備就是要修這個救護法,針對美岸的15萬到75萬來裁划,"},{"start":12472.686,"end":12498.757,"text":"改為提高為美能計劃然後提高非法媒介罰款3倍從10萬到50萬的罰款提高到美能是開罰30萬到150萬加重這個刑責目前的草案應該是這個方向對不對沒有錯嘛那等於這個修法的重責當然會落在新部長的身上但是我現在要請教部長這個法案何時會送進來"},{"start":12502.039,"end":12502.099,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":12522.626,"end":12545.647,"text":"移工的私人原因包括經濟因素、勞動條件還有固執不當的對待等完全也不全然是非法仲介的問題這個大家都非常清楚你看這個2022年的美國國務院的人權報告中也提到臺灣移工問題提出相關警訊移工來台工作常因背負高額的仲介費面臨剝削有抵債勞動的風險"},{"start":12547.489,"end":12571.486,"text":"所以移工來這邊是賺錢而不是來還債條件不然這樣就會跑嘛那你看日本還有韓國也朝向這個放寬移工的市長的限制然後我想如果屆時在國際市場做比較到時候臺灣要引進更多的移工可能會有一定程度的挑戰跟難度嘛所以這部分以部長的經驗要交接給新的部長要好好來面對這個事情"},{"start":12572.266,"end":12594.483,"text":"這其一啦齁那其二我為什麼要用一點點時間來針對這個事情齁因為等一下我們要回到這個主題就工會法齁台灣不只不僅是這個移工有風險存在連當台灣的工人員齁都有基本上的過勞風險齁這個大家都非常清楚不然你看台灣失聯八萬五千名的移工要怎麼查"},{"start":12596.206,"end":12611.918,"text":"我給一個數據請內政部還有這個移民署相關觀點就上台吧時間這樣比較不會去移民署結束到112年你看啦移民署到112年11月30號統計移民署專勤隊共計是576年576人在查緝全北8萬5千多名移工這個要怎麼查沒有移民署那應該有內政部的人吧"},{"start":12626.764,"end":12632.326,"text":"內政部 人事處國境大隊到去年10月31統計是839人要負責國家促進的業務國境大隊在2019年離職率超過8%"},{"start":12652.401,"end":12662.768,"text":"疫情過後旅客回升,去年的歷史率已經高達12%,將近50%的成長。為什麼這個內政部應該都要掌握嘛,對不對。然後,警察報退休潮。照發現在今年555人申請。那原警講一句話,不練戰不如歸去。他原本的編制是3084,目前實力的原理是2799,結果今年就有555人這個申請退休。"},{"start":12682.81,"end":12708.071,"text":"然後當然不是申請退休他就能表示可以退休嘛對不對他要一公認員退休之前撫恤法的第17條規定任職滿25年即可申請退休警務署還是內政部有講到彰化縣的警局有多少的員警單純是滿25年以上他其實還能再繼續撫恤但是他也選擇退休有掌握嗎"},{"start":12712.499,"end":12728.297,"text":"包括委員這部分我真的不是很了解但是剛剛提到的數字其實他們最近這幾年提出來大概都400到500之間但是真正到退休大概就是100人以內其實這個是有相當的差距"},{"start":12729.208,"end":12756.679,"text":"為什麼每次都會這麼多人提出要退休?那是不是跟我講的嘛?就是滿25年就可以提退休嘛,對不對?對。一般外勤啊,內勤是不...但是2021年是368人提出啦。2022是433啦齁。2023去年是525嘛。那今年喔?今年已經達到555。結果實在持續往上嘛。那你們有掌握這個狀況是什麼狀況嗎?是不是成為他們所想的不練戰不如歸去啊?"},{"start":12758.948,"end":12782.258,"text":"什麼原因嗎?特別是在做無聲的抗議,然後你們也視若無睹。這個警察能力是不足啦。你知道現在在固守我們立法院的這些員警的缺額大致上是保持多少嗎?你們知道嗎?"},{"start":12783.363,"end":12803.888,"text":"其實這個車餌目前全國警察的車餌大概4000多名。人力一直不足一直補不到位。這個主要是因為容性量的問題。但你人力不足的時候你排班會不會出問題?會嘛對不對?目前來講我們...你敢說沒有問題?你要講清楚喔!這麼多單位喔!你俠館這麼多單位喔!"},{"start":12806.513,"end":12808.154,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 案"},{"start":12824.791,"end":12837.808,"text":"委員,我想這一部分目前我們應用的辦法是其實行政院就我們警察目前的治安狀況有特別增加4000多名的預算援友那這個原來是重點你們補了嗎?還是沒補嗎?還是補不到嗎?4000多援友已經補了"},{"start":12841.693,"end":12850.156,"text":"議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第四條及第六條條文"},{"start":12861.039,"end":12866.844,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":12891.871,"end":12919.282,"text":"就是全部的現金的一個狀態嘛對不對你請休息一下好不好那有請法務部的參事我們目前面對到這麼大量的詐騙的這個案嘛司法能力嚴重不足那法務部也爭取到11年到14年分4年要增加司法能力600人嘛相關細節我就不講了檢察官50人檢察司務官250人然後搭搭搭也包含華警50人我請教一下目前的人力"},{"start":12920.832,"end":12939.692,"text":"人力到位狀況怎麼樣目前的人力分四噹嘛對不對到明年就四年滿了嘛對不對對阿這些人現在補齊了怎麼樣應該都還是在進行中還是沒有幾成嘛幾成600已經已經達標幾成了剩下一年半的時間"},{"start":12941.85,"end":12957.278,"text":"委員是不是這個可以容我回去有這個所以你沒有掌握嗎好那我再請教一下我們在去年在司法法制委員會有幫檢察官來爭取這一個檢察官助理100名應該到位了嘛那法務部自己在提出要再爭辯150名確定了嗎"},{"start":12963.051,"end":12988.387,"text":"這個部分是檢察司的業務我想我回去可以請他們再提供比較精確的數字給委員所以你不清楚好謝謝那就請回我現在還是要講人力的問題不管從警察人力不管從司法的人力不管從那個移民所專勤隊的人力五百多名要去面對八萬多名的這些逃逸外勞怎麼去面對內政部內政部"},{"start":12994.845,"end":13012.277,"text":"大家在關注警察能力、消防能力在補充速度之上坦白講都是杯水車薪啦出門的啦好那今天這些不管是警校的人員在提出相關的這些團結權還有我們的協商權還有相關的這個爭議權不給你們給了遇到人力遇到排放問題能協商嗎"},{"start":13026.604,"end":13042.882,"text":"人力的部分的話就是請那個移民署這邊檢討完之後如果真的確實有人力的需求我會跟行政院來做支持來爭取謝謝全序部今天有來嘛全序部有個報告實在是太精彩報告四個字送給你叫做哩哩浪浪"},{"start":13047.196,"end":13074.674,"text":"我去年在市委會特別提到說當你這些事情都不好好溝通然後一個群衆部變成一個僵硬部的時候這事情會越來越糟糕你不站在基層公務人員的角度跟他們的這樣的一個遇到這樣的樣態然後去積極的去協調、協商找出一個大家可以共識的一個可遵循的方式來往下走下去那到時候問題就會越來越大了"},{"start":13075.413,"end":13091.902,"text":"所以我那天有特別提到,我不曉得那天是部長,我在全巡邏是部長,我問他嘛,你當逼著這些基層工人員跟你魚死網破的時候啦,他也不管什麼法律啊,他也不管什麼規範的,他就要跟你拚了。請教他,你怎麼處理?我們還是從這個協商權啊,讓他多一點協商權。協商權我剛才就講了嘛,當人力不足的時候可以協商嗎?"},{"start":13103.415,"end":13126.229,"text":"這擬修方式是可以協商的嗎?擬修可以協商?消防署警政署海巡署認為現在人力不足想進行擬修協商這個擬修到底是可以協商的項目還是不可協商的項目?你確定是可以協商的項目嗎?可以新的法是可以新的法嗎?還未修完之前是不行嘛對不對?我們已經放進去了好啊當人力不足的時候怎麼協商?就是協商啊看看是增援還是怎麼樣就協商"},{"start":13133.359,"end":13155.712,"text":"你教我怎麼協商好不好?這個團隊、這個單位卻有10%到20%的能力,排班就排不出來,他要跟你協商,你怎麼協商嘛?你教我一下啊,怎麼計算、怎麼溝通、怎麼協調、怎麼下紀錄、怎麼協商?你的修法心的法律裡面,怎麼依據協商?"},{"start":13159.431,"end":13163.253,"text":"沒有辦法不要在那邊隨便亂呼嚨啦不要再哩哩啪啪啦去年問的時候也是這樣你們部長答詢我也是這樣今天你代表來還是答詞這樣可以協商啊吹喚的例子說怎麼協商還是可以協商請教你怎麼協商嘛這實在讓我生氣啦欸謝主席"},{"start":13189.468,"end":13194.931,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員的質詢。我們禮拜三會來處理。接下來我們請陳培宇委員。好,謝謝主席。那有請勞動部,謝謝。好,請勞動部許部長。"},{"start":13214.196,"end":13233.454,"text":"陳委員好。好部長如您剛剛所說這是您在委員會最後一次接受質詢那等一下我所要跟您討論就麻煩您交接給新任的部長好嗎?關於這個中高齡就業的部分我今天比較多力氣想要關懷在關於女性就業的部分我相信有部長你一定知道"},{"start":13234.835,"end":13247.241,"text":"​​ 目前很多事實的現況是大部分的女性在生了小孩結了婚之後其實是照顧家庭為主等到孩子大了家庭照顧責任變輕了之後他們想要再回到職場上絕對絕對面臨非常非常多的困難所以我看到在勞動部的就業服務站你們有所謂的求職媒合可是我要說相關求職媒合到底如何開發對於這些"},{"start":13259.667,"end":13260.207,"text":"),委員陳菁徽"},{"start":13287.671,"end":13287.891,"text":"主席"},{"start":13305.693,"end":13305.833,"text":"獎勵及獎勵機制。"},{"start":13326.731,"end":13345.963,"text":"聽起來您確實知道目前最大的困境就是剛剛說彈性工時還有我之前就已經跟部長說過的遠距工作其實也是很多新時代的女生她們在求職的時候她們希望職場的雇主給予的彈性你現在也看到了其實再回到職場上很多中高齡的婦女她們也需要這樣的彈性就是彈性工時遠距工作我再次彈掉彈性工時遠距工作"},{"start":13348.664,"end":13353.766,"text":"台灣過往在招募國際人才的時候非常多相關勞動政策其中最為很多國際專業移工他們所詬病的就是台灣的遠距工作跟彈性工時非常非常的不友善那我們來看一下你們的勞發署在去年你們以桃園為立陶宗廟你們成立了一個所謂引法人才資源中心那你們甚至提出了一個2023到2025年中高齡者還有高齡者就業促進計畫"},{"start":13376.713,"end":13377.534,"text":"​​擬具〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案〉案。​​擬具"},{"start":13403.507,"end":13427.688,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":13427.688,"end":13449.565,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":13449.705,"end":13449.845,"text":"),委員陳菁徽"},{"start":13469.614,"end":13470.234,"text":"),委員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":13485.282,"end":13487.604,"text":"公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案。 »:"},{"start":13502.938,"end":13524.188,"text":"因為現在有非常多新型態以大代小這件事情真的已經在很多地方產生了還不錯的化學效應那我想你們不管是跟其他跨部會或者是國發會也請他們提供相關的案例作為勞動部非常重要的政策工具有這種成功的案例我就請各部會能夠來協助我只是舉其中一個案例謝謝部長謝謝主席接下來我們請黃國昌委員質詢"},{"start":13536.745,"end":13563.041,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請勞動部部長還有消防署的署長。好,請許部長跟蕭署長。黃委員好。部長好、署長好。因為接下來有關於消防員組工會的事情,可能勞動部跟消防組這邊圈著,都有一些觀點跟立場必須要表達,所以請兩位一起上來。"},{"start":13564.295,"end":13583.527,"text":"我先請教一下消防署的署長因為前兩天有人跑到我地方的服務處去然後拿了消防署的縮帖來針對台灣民眾黨黨團提案我們支持消防員組工會的這個事情拿了一個縮帖到我的服務處來說"},{"start":13586.767,"end":13615.079,"text":"因為消防署的立場是不贊成消防員組工會所以要求我們撤回我們的提案這件事情是消防署授意的嗎怎麼會有人做這種事啊是跟我們報告感謝我們關心這個部分就是我們有跟縣市來做瞭解那縣市是有18個縣市是不同意入工會那有一個縣市是同意入工會但是限制罷工權"},{"start":13616.099,"end":13635.321,"text":" »:有三個機關是沒有回應,是採取保留態度。 »:對不起,你沒有回答我的問題啊。這是消防署授意的嗎?這是消防署授意的嗎?這是消防署授意的嗎?請你回答問題。這個是消防署授意的嗎?我們是跟委員報告,就跟縣市,請縣市跟委員。對不起,你沒有回答問題啊。"},{"start":13636.604,"end":13665.68,"text":"有人拿著消防組的縮帖到我地方服務處來我們支持消防員組工會然後結果消防組我不曉得欸是關很大嗎我第一次聽到有部會啊要求立法委員撤回提案署長你會不會覺得太誇張啊還是你也支持這樣做是我們尊重委員的權責跟委員你們有尊重委員的權責嗎拿著一個縮帖來說建請委員能夠撤回修正提案"},{"start":13666.946,"end":13683.418,"text":"這是不是消防署的縮帖還是有人偽造變造文書說清楚啊?所以你也同意嗎?消防署要求委員撤回提案非常不妥對不對?消防署可以做這種事喔?"},{"start":13690.117,"end":13693.984,"text":"消防署可以做這種事喔?要求委員撤回提案?白紙黑字就這樣寫啦!消防署可以這樣幹嗎?"},{"start":13701.67,"end":13726.711,"text":"署長請表示意見不要站在那邊不講話是剛剛委員跟委員報告這個文字是不妥我們必須跟眾委員的意見處理我們繼續看消防員組工會這一件事情我們基層的消防弟兄喊了非常久了如果現行的制度下我們在第一線冒險犯難的消防弟兄覺得"},{"start":13728.049,"end":13753.46,"text":"他們可以獲得應有的保障而不是每一次大火以後我看到那些消防員流著眼淚在送他們那些本來一起工作一起冒險犯難的弟兄今天這個訴求不會浮上水面也不會得到那麼多人民的支持"},{"start":13755.411,"end":13772.731,"text":"從各國比較的法制當中有非常多的國家是支持也贊成消防員可以組工會的那當然我們目前的政府相對是保守不贊成消防員組工會我的理解有沒有錯誤 署長"},{"start":13774.249,"end":13798.502,"text":"是跟委員報告我目前朝向幾個部分的一個進展是方便對不起請您針對問題回答就好了現在的政府支不支持消防員組工會組工會這是一個方式組協會也是一個方式所以你們支不支持他們組工會我們現在是朝向組協會的方式來做好這樣子的立場是目前520以前舊政府的立場沒有錯嗎"},{"start":13799.875,"end":13800.635,"text":"對吧?"},{"start":13800.635,"end":13810.558,"text":"是整個執行方向跟執行措施。 是是是,這個在520以前目前陳建仁內閣是不贊成消防員組工會,沒有錯嗎?"},{"start":13810.558,"end":13819.881,"text":"我們朝向更廣的方式來處理消防人員失業安全問題。不管啦,你用什麼樣的形容詞形容嘛,你不贊成消防員組工會這幾個字就講不出來嘛。"},{"start":13822.222,"end":13848.457,"text":"你當為署長你不贊成就不贊成嘛大聲的講這就是你的政策立場嘛現在我的問題很簡單啊不贊成消防員主公會的這個政策立場新的內閣新的政府也支持嗎請問署長目前是這個方向我們是在努力對我的意思是新的政府新的內閣支持嗎呃我想政府的政策是不是政策應該是一次性的"},{"start":13849.437,"end":13870.504,"text":"所以你的意思是新的政府也不贊成消防員組公會是這樣嗎?應該是這麼講。消防營業的安全這是政府重視的一個項目。怎麼樣達到消防營業的安全這是目前的措施。我上禮拜才從美國參加五十五個國家的消防事務會議。對不起,我在問的是新政府的態度。你不知道就說不知道嘛。你在那邊扯你去美國幹嘛?我有請你報告你去美國回來的心得嗎?"},{"start":13876.127,"end":13896.754,"text":"新的政府支不支持你知道就知道不知道就不知道扯那麼多幹嘛我現在不清楚還請部長是高委員我不清楚你不清楚嘛是您即將要卸任勞動部部長了嘛過去在這個質詢台上我為了要去檢驗蔡總統六大勞工保證我也對你提出過是"},{"start":13898.238,"end":13916.503,"text":"獅度的質詢但站在人民的立場監督行政部門施政本來就是我們立法委員該做的事情我相信部長不會把它當成是個人的事情好那您馬上要離任勞動部部長了不管如何不管如何您在這個位置上過去這幾年"},{"start":13917.483,"end":13920.965,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":13939.741,"end":13965.238,"text":"委員我是這樣子認為說消防員的權益我們是應該要保障他們的訴求我們一定要重視所以今天這個問題主要是在於過去可能有些權益或訴求方面沒有受到充分的一個重視所以才會有這個組工會的訴求站在勞動部的立場我們一定是支持他們的團結權"},{"start":13967.159,"end":13970.32,"text":"), 委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":13991.809,"end":14013.091,"text":"我大概了解您的立場了啦因為也是您最後一次備詢嘛我也沒有辦法逼出你講出你的唯心之論啊那只是我覺得有一些事情齁我們現在在公共政策的討論上面敞開心胸看一看南韓在2021年的時候他們就開放消防員組工會了嘛"},{"start":14013.672,"end":14026.522,"text":"他們開放消防員組工會的時候講得非常的清楚為了要符合國際勞工組織關於解設自由等相關規範南韓的國民議會通過了公職人員工會法修正草案"},{"start":14027.438,"end":14052.179,"text":"民定消防人員教育人員也可以組織公會我們是希望台灣在保障我們消防弟兄的這一件事情上面他們會有這麼強烈的呼聲而且持續了這麼久顯然就是目前既有的機制沒有辦法滿足他們權益保障的要求所以這些消防弟兄的心聲我們要虛心的聽進去"},{"start":14053.3,"end":14064.456,"text":"如果說一直反對他們組工會的話那你相對應的是那你有什麼更好的辦法而且能夠讓這些消防弟兄相信你們所提出來的"},{"start":14065.512,"end":14090.948,"text":"也可滿足他們的需求。如果沒有辦法做到這件事情的話我們還不讓那些消防弟兄透過工會團結起來去行使他們的權利我覺得說不過去啦我這段話不僅僅是跟在場的署長以及即將卸任的勞動部部長分享其實我也是公開的在跟社會對話也希望新的政府可以聽得進去以上謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員"},{"start":14095.558,"end":14097.178,"text":"接下來我們請張智倫委員質詢。張智倫委員"},{"start":14120.98,"end":14146.11,"text":"感謝部長跟署長那因為今天這個有關於主公會的事情可能會麻煩到署長跟部長來回應所以請兩位一起上台首先要請教我們署長有關於這個統計最近10年有43位的消防員員殉職而且尤其大家非常清楚屏東陽明大火事件造成4位消防員殉職這大家都歷歷在目"},{"start":14146.79,"end":14175.99,"text":"現在總共有10死111人受傷的悲劇啊那請問署長在這個陽明大火之後這個消防組做了哪些努力尤其那天我記得在這個很多的這個抗議的這個訴求裡面第一個就是要精進這個化學雲的部分尤其是化學物全流程管理的這個部分請問一下這個署長的這邊有沒有來精進哪一些部分然後跟各部會的討論的目前的狀況是如何"},{"start":14176.63,"end":14199.361,"text":"感謝委員垂詢。針對化學院部分在明陽大火以後,院的政務委員事上有組成專案會議,怎麼樣把化學院裡面的資訊充分分享。當然對業者的提供、提報在工廠法、輔導法裡面已經列入修法的內容,消防法這個部分也列入修正的內容。"},{"start":14200.141,"end":14225.418,"text":"謝謝署長,我簡單給您請教第一個就是說這個資訊的即時性是不是已經有確認清楚因為當時這個陽明在這個救火的時候發現他的有害物質超量30倍啊因為我們常常會擔心啊很多時候有些企業登入禁區的資料後來都沒有更新啊這個超量30倍的部分有沒有做動態式、滾動式的一個調整你們是怎麼樣去跟各部會去做協調的"},{"start":14226.018,"end":14241.705,"text":"此部分在《工廠輔導法》已經列入修正的內容對於違法的部分會做處理就從儲存量的一個情形當然在化學目前這些資料都會上源那上源以後這些資料會分析到大概多久確認一次"},{"start":14242.105,"end":14269.384,"text":"而目前就修正過以後我要確認一下就是修正過以後工廠輔導法的一個內容應該是六個月或者應該是六個月我再確認一下再跟委員回報所以本席是不是拜託署長拜託建議一下如果六個月才建那說他們的自律的那個工廠自律的方式怎麼做是不是說他們只要有更動的時候多少多久之內要去把這些有害物質去做一個登錄的動作好嗎"},{"start":14270.057,"end":14298.82,"text":"是 這個部分我們再來跟經濟部來做一個確認 謝謝好第二個要請教這個署長的部分最近消防法有修正修正的部分有幾個有一個重點就是說他們針對剛剛有提過就是如果剛剛署長這邊有講到如果企業部改善減災應該停工的這個部分在消防法第42條第三項這邊的部分還是法令的修改的部分沒有看到修改還是得停工"},{"start":14299.781,"end":14304.064,"text":"), 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。 »: 國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":14317.112,"end":14345.37,"text":"應停工。我想這個部分對於比例原則上面會出問題所以在整個消防法修正目前已經5月10號報到行政院4月30號已經報到行政院接下來會送大院來審查那再請委員再跟我們做指導謝謝好那到時候大家再做細部來去做討論看如何才可以讓這個基層消防員最重視的一些比較有害的物質是要如何定時去做一個處理定時做一個提報的部分"},{"start":14346.01,"end":14364.292,"text":"好,那今天最重要的一點還有一點時間,針對工會法的修法我們是為了要保障所有消防人員的權益那我請教一下剛剛很多委員也提到說其他國家也有這個組工會只是針對爭議權的部分來去做限縮這個部分有沒有辦法來協助?"},{"start":14365.848,"end":14388.649,"text":"公務員報告目前的方向是朝向修正消防法列治安的專商這個第一部分公務員報告那另外就消防人員這方面協會主要是結社權跟協商這個部分在目前的協會法的修正已經納入這個精神那協商的項目也擴大我想這個部分我們會配合全市部修正的內容來做一個處理"},{"start":14389.65,"end":14395.693,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案：立法院第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會"},{"start":14411.22,"end":14432.619,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":14433.25,"end":14457.389,"text":"各位報告我想的確消防員所面臨的是非常高風險的工作身心的壓力都是非常大我想這個部分當然整個勞動環境怎麼樣去把它優化然後對他的健康安全在平常有怎麼樣能夠來做協助我想我們應該是要跨部會一起來努力好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝張志倫委員"},{"start":14463.676,"end":14485.092,"text":"李燕秀委員請消防署署長我順便也先請一下呃人事總處的呃對不起我請全序部的朱政次朱次長好請小署長跟朱次長"},{"start":14486.351,"end":14505.208,"text":"署長,我想今天一整個早上諮詢了這麼久,成為剛才幾位委員所提出來的對於消防局的同仁、消防署底下所有的全國的同仁組工會,你們是不支持的,你們是傾向處理公務人員的協會,對不對?"},{"start":14511.728,"end":14533.461,"text":"對,今天如果不是我們召委今天排這個議案我不知道這個案子還要拖多久消防署的底下的所有同仁過去這麼多年來幾次大火殉職我相信這是全國人的傷痛也是消防弟兄看到每一次事件過後都是今天攻擊政府明天就忘記"},{"start":14534.69,"end":14560.169,"text":"如果成立公務人員協會真的這麼重要我覺得就不會拖到今天上一屆的立法院早就已經可以處理完了但是為什麼到今天你們公務人員的協會法還沒有出來你今天還在跟我講說我們不支持消防同仁組工會我們還是希望在協會法裡面來做處理這是大家所憤怒的地方"},{"start":14561.522,"end":14587.118,"text":"所以我覺得我相信你非常清楚現在所有的消防同仁想要申請調動的狀況其實非常非常頻繁勤務最多的無論是六都大家都想調到鄉下地方或是城鄉差距比較大的地方我想你非常清楚原因在哪裡你也非常清楚"},{"start":14588.131,"end":14600.964,"text":""},{"start":14601.587,"end":14617.653,"text":"所以無論是我們相關集同仁的結社權、協商權、裡面未來怎麼去處理大家所關注的這幾塊我希望競速的在一個月之內你可以告訴我們立法院有具體的做法否則立法院就按照我們後續我們的權利我們來處理好不好"},{"start":14622.356,"end":14643.135,"text":"除了這是我的建議你可以請回我因為我今天還有其他的議題要請問朱政次朱市長我接下來就要跟你討論我們派用人員簽調彈性的問題大家都知道在民國五六十年的時候五六十年代的時候我們國家為了推動國家的重大建設我們的行政機關"},{"start":14644.116,"end":14654.306,"text":"除此之外：立法院第11屆第12會議委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12會議委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12會議委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12會議委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第12會議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第"},{"start":14659.651,"end":14684.028,"text":"但是派用人員的條例已經在104年廢止那這個派用人員我們有九年的落日條款也就是在今年6月19號落日之後所有的派用人員就必須留在他原任的地方或等到他離職為止就不能再增加任何的派用人員那他最終如果還留在職位上他只能平調"},{"start":14685.009,"end":14687.411,"text":"公務員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":14707.569,"end":14711.872,"text":"),委員王育敏等19人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":14728.763,"end":14755.371,"text":"鬼道建設在任用捷運局常常會跟臺北市政府捷運局要人但是這些人其實我們本來原意是不希望這些派用人員去影響到全國其他的機關但是在臺北市捷運局來說他就是一灘死水想進來念捷運專業人想進來我如果進來臺北市的捷運局他未來可能也升不上去因為55%的人都是在一起主管而且他只能評調他永遠是留在這邊"},{"start":14756.431,"end":14783.376,"text":"所以針對臺灣市政府擬具這些問題朱正智有沒有什麼樣解決的方案可以處理因為畢竟軌道建設在臺灣我們目前東西向未來的發展南部我們現在中南部也在做軌道建設那這些問題有沒有什麼比較具體可以處理的方向跟方式是 報告李委員現在就是我們在因為這個法的規定蠻硬的啦"},{"start":14784.577,"end":14788.741,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":14800.013,"end":14800.073,"text":"​​擬具擬具擬具"},{"start":14815.368,"end":14821.553,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":14838.746,"end":14854.053,"text":"獎項獎項獎項獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":14854.193,"end":14855.434,"text":"兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具兼"},{"start":14877.295,"end":14896.54,"text":"條條例當時是不希望他到處跑然後影響到別人的權益但是他卻卡死了在台北市政府捷運局他用人能夠吸引更多年輕人有能力的專業進入軌道建設的這個領域裡面所以這個問題怎麼處理可不可以在兩個禮拜以內給我一個檢討的方案"},{"start":14903.803,"end":14912.63,"text":"你瞭解我意思嗎?可以瞭解,我知道。好,謝謝。好,謝謝李燕秀委員的質詢。接下來我們請邱志偉委員質詢。好,謝謝主委。有請勞動部許部長。好,請許部長。"},{"start":14929.175,"end":14937.74,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。 您是一個稱職有為有所的部長。給您高度的肯定。那您任內什麼幾年?六年兩個多月。"},{"start":14958.556,"end":14976.836,"text":"μη佩佩有6年2個月對,到519應該是2275天6年中最讓你擔任部長最讓你覺得最有成就感最自豪的一件事我覺得很多事情都讓你覺得很自豪沒有啦講一件就好了講一件喔我是覺得我覺得"},{"start":14978.075,"end":15006.853,"text":"對我來講是災保法老公職業災害保險保護法這件事情是從我2018上任我就覺得這個法倡議了好久那對老公那麼重要然後我們努力把它完成而且謝謝委員會的支持未還委員我們在不到不到一個月把它完成立法真的是所以令你覺得沮喪或者遺憾的一件事情"},{"start":15008.404,"end":15013,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案"},{"start":15013.626,"end":15042.551,"text":"〔廣東話〕"},{"start":15042.711,"end":15043.031,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具"},{"start":15063.9,"end":15077.83,"text":"請教你勞動參與率的問題。怎麼樣高齡的勞動參與率能夠提高?我們的黎明結構跟日本韓國差不多。我們平均,不管是男性女性的平均壽命也跟日本韓國差不多。"},{"start":15078.63,"end":15095.147,"text":"為什麽一樣是這種年齡結構日本跟韓國他的勞動參與率在45歲到65歲以上都比我們高出很多特別是65歲以上中高齡的部分中高齡部分是我們今天要討論的主題你看我們只有9.2%"},{"start":15096.508,"end":15097.848,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":15126.927,"end":15129.554,"text":"對,包委員其實我們現在也是在鼓勵這個高齡者"},{"start":15133.332,"end":15141.661,"text":"議員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。厲 委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。厲 委員"},{"start":15157.236,"end":15165.679,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及〈一〉及�"},{"start":15176.602,"end":15199.442,"text":"除了勞工端要去,勞動部要去,我覺得僱主端這個可能對於高齡的禁用也要抱持開放的態度。所以僱主端你要怎麼樣去禁用中高齡的就業者,你必須要提高主顧的優惠,你這個跨部會去協調,很多是財政部或者經濟部或者相關單位,但是主要還是你勞動部要負責。所以你要從這個政策協調的高度去怎麼樣協調各部會能夠"},{"start":15201.844,"end":15202.024,"text":"議員陳菁徽"},{"start":15224.186,"end":15245.822,"text":"​​議員陳菁徽等18人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16次全體委員會及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第16次全體委員會及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第17次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員會及第18次全體委員"},{"start":15253.328,"end":15253.428,"text":"謝謝委員,感謝。"},{"start":15291.67,"end":15299.592,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":15309.25,"end":15312.337,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案 》案。"},{"start":15320.442,"end":15340.31,"text":"主張好在我們今天討論事項中有一個中高齡者及高齡者的就業促進法第13條我仔細研讀之後跟這個12條似乎有這個衝突所以我想在這邊請教一下我們先看一下第12條"},{"start":15341.97,"end":15353.36,"text":"條文寧定不能因為年齡而有差別待遇,那特別是考積跟待遇。那我在這裡請教一下,考積是不是就是考核績效的意思?"},{"start":15356.32,"end":15377.629,"text":"公文報告我們其實12條裡面主要就是不能用年齡做一些對啦啊考積我問你考積啊對考積基本上就是考核跟一些績效嘛好那我們再來看一下第13條的條文喔這個條文是排除12條也就是可以有差別待遇的特別情況那這裡面講說"},{"start":15379.61,"end":15398.856,"text":"繼於績效的薪資給付又可以有差別待遇所以署長你看到問題了沒有跟委員報告這個確實這個是在整個執行面上那因為我們這個條文主要是我們調評室這邊調評室在那邊在負責所以你有看到問題嗎你有沒有看到問題矛盾嗎"},{"start":15405.972,"end":15423.486,"text":"這個可能在條文之間可能之間有一些在實務執行上可能會有產生一些相關聯相關阿文字就是相關阿但是但是他就是矛盾阿那那個來我們再看一下第17條規定所以說"},{"start":15428.005,"end":15443.729,"text":"顧主對於這個求職或中高齡勞工有這個年齡上的差別待遇的事實那應該要負起賠償責任那我再請教喔就是實務上要如何賠償那賠多少有標準嗎這個是跟委員報告這個部分的話就要從民事訴訟來這邊來就來去他去爭取主張"},{"start":15457.479,"end":15458.04,"text":"獲得獲得什麼樣的補償損失?"},{"start":15484.421,"end":15508.59,"text":"像地方縣市政府提出申訴之後他如果是有是屬於叫做就業歧視的話認定那這個部分雇主會被處罰那處罰30萬到150萬那如果是他是有那個相關的損失的部分民事訴訟進行的話那看到損失的部分好那再來喔還是說政府收了罰款以後"},{"start":15510.162,"end":15539.701,"text":"​​僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅"},{"start":15540.021,"end":15542.522,"text":" entreprene?"},{"start":15542.522,"end":15558.389,"text":"就是法?報告委員那處罰歸處罰那另外的話如果他有一些那個之前解雇的這個部分的話因爲我們的那個訴訟輔助會有協助那協助那個勞工去他民事訴訟把他的權益爭取回來也是要花很長的時間"},{"start":15562.474,"end":15579.299,"text":"第十七條規定了這個賠償是不是要勞工走這個司法管道去取得損失賠償因為實務上真的是因為這個年齡造成這個差別待遇的損失而向法院提出訴訟這樣的案例你們總共統計有多少案這個部分的話手邊現在沒有資料"},{"start":15588.443,"end":15614.604,"text":"議員,那你印象當中有很多嗎?在那個歧視的部分來講,年齡歧視的話,案子的話是沒有那麼多,但是大概是性別是在目前是最多的。就是上次我們有討論過,這個是這樣,如果你沒有統計資料,好啦,假如說不多的話,我想訂定這個應付賠償責任的意義到底在哪裡?我們也是"},{"start":15615.52,"end":15616.642,"text":"μη施出高途計劃執行成效如何?"},{"start":15629.18,"end":15651.764,"text":"民私高徒當初在執行本來是希望透過私徒制不過他其實有產生一些問題尤其在勞工的部分權益保障是不夠所以那個計畫當初就暫停我們就導入到青年就業現在還有沒有輔導跟獎勵就是同一工作分工合作的措施"},{"start":15652.324,"end":15680.282,"text":"有,那個,巴委員,我們因為在當初我們希望能夠有一些世代合作,像這個專法的第20條跟第30條都有類似這樣的一個相關的一些法令的措施。所以等於就是說,你們有那個替代方案。有。那這個替代方案會不會產生,就像上次的這個民事初高屠的計畫,其實變相性產生了更多的廉價勞工出來?"},{"start":15681.11,"end":15710.55,"text":"公文包像我們在20條就是說他絕對不能低於原來的勞動條件這第一個第二個就是我們在執行過程當中其實他一切規定我們都依照相關的法令在做一些你現在是講就是說聘用這個中高齡者不能低於嗎那因為我我剛剛點出是說因為過去這個民視出高圖的計畫你說有些問題嗎這些問題就是產生因為師徒制的關係所以他產生更多的這個廉價勞工出來嗎所以你的替代方案有沒有"},{"start":15711.851,"end":15722.164,"text":"重蹈覆轍會不會產生更多的廉價勞工這是我剛剛問你的問題好謝謝委員提醒我們現在在計畫的設計都會注意就絕對不能對勞工的權益有受到影響"},{"start":15722.995,"end":15748.812,"text":"好那我想你們的新的這個替代方案我後續再來好好研究了解一下那再來就是說第19條提到顧主對於有這個工作障礙者要提供職務在設計還有輔具那對於這個有長照需求者那要轉介適當的長照服務資源那我想要請教就是法案通過這幾年你們實施成效如何"},{"start":15750.599,"end":15776.397,"text":"職務賽色技跟委員報告我們其實目前有相關的一個處理像我們在去年因為就是透過這樣的一個機制我們大概協助了500將近550家事業單位那有2200多人來實施這個職務賽色技的協助所以這是多久的案件統計去年一整年去年一整年有500多件是好那那個所以你們總共大概執行有多少預算"},{"start":15778.651,"end":15798.904,"text":"則在設計我們預算在兩兩兩千多萬兩千多萬對兩千多萬兩千多萬就是那個府府具的部分對就是他一些相關的府具跟流程改善以及其他的一些相關的一些市場協助措施"},{"start":15800.081,"end":15805.866,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 〈工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 〉"},{"start":15819.171,"end":15834.931,"text":"議員您覺得這個部分你們這樣子地方政府你們後來這樣子辦理的這個成效如何我們是覺得還有努力的空間因為事實上如果以我們目前尤其是在中高齡一些比較需要協助我們覺得未來還會再繼續是是"},{"start":15836.493,"end":15857.346,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":15857.886,"end":15862.308,"text":"公務員提出申訴不力處分,罰款約二、三十萬,其餘大多是鼓勵性質。"},{"start":15875.368,"end":15889.82,"text":"僱主要不要配合?因為沒有法則也很難要求,除了剛剛前面講的比較具體以外。但是其中涉及政府應該有的作為,我想你們應該要負起示範的責任。"},{"start":15891.041,"end":15905.667,"text":"​​國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會及第六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第16會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第16會期社會"},{"start":15914.691,"end":15916.433,"text":"),委員長,你現在兩位署長應該也都是正當壯年啦。"},{"start":15933.46,"end":15950.974,"text":"有問題嗎?我是壯士代,所以我壯士代。好,但是我想在座每一位我們都會漸漸老去喔。所以千萬不要辜負了這一部很重要的法案的通過以及它背後代表的意義。好,謝謝。好,謝謝韋。好,謝謝陳瑩委員。接下來我們請楊耀委員質詢。"},{"start":15966.617,"end":15986.333,"text":"謝謝主席。主席,我請一下前序部。好,主持長,請。邵委員好。處長好。處長,我們今天最主要有幾個版本修工會法。"},{"start":15988.837,"end":16015.601,"text":"我個人的看法就是大概在挑戰工人員協會法的表示工人員協會法裡面大概有一些規定是有不足還是在實施上有遇到一些什麼困難我這樣子講市長覺得有沒有道理"},{"start":16016.794,"end":16041.915,"text":"協會法現行協會法是在協商的範圍還有組成的那個條件上一個是組成的太嚴一個是協商範圍太窄是現行協會法所以我們這一次在去年10月30號送到立法院的版本就是把協商範圍擴大把那個參與的門檻降低這是目前修正的方向這樣子"},{"start":16042.62,"end":16057.753,"text":"現在我是覺得應該要跟工會法就是這一次一起來討論因為我的理解是這樣子就是工會人員協會法是在規範特別法律關係"},{"start":16062.509,"end":16087.497,"text":"提示裡面的人員的權益保障。那工會法是在保護一般的受僱者的權益保障。我覺得這個是兩個完全不同的體系。可是我們經過幾次修法就把它混在一起了。現在那個"},{"start":16089.946,"end":16114.22,"text":"因為警察、警消人員是根據警察人員人事條例任用的。警消現在可以組協會嗎?現在可以,但是現在只能在內政部了。將來我們有特種協會,就是專門為消防警察設計的。就是你們消防人員就可以自己組了。"},{"start":16115.04,"end":16119.664,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案﹑事由．一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":16137.056,"end":16158.695,"text":"獎項獎項獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎獎"},{"start":16159.318,"end":16159.418,"text":"議員陳菁徽"},{"start":16181.365,"end":16183.127,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案 案 案"},{"start":16195.912,"end":16212.066,"text":"我怎麼看都覺得假如說教師因為教師原本在公務人員協會法是禁止的對不對教師他不是使用公務人員協會法本來是教師法"},{"start":16213.052,"end":16221.857,"text":"有協會嗎?教師有協會嗎?有教師公會,它是兩軌。接下來這個我就不知道問誰了。警政署跟消防署,誰來?"},{"start":16246.007,"end":16254.693,"text":"副署長現在是這樣子,就是國外呢,國外其實警校大概也有組工會協議的例子對不對?有沒有罷工權?有沒有?全世界有沒有?"},{"start":16273.598,"end":16295.857,"text":"就考試院提到的資料裡面都沒有罷工權。像美國是少數州有條件罷工,英國校方是有比較高的罷工門檻,那其它是限制。多數是限制或者是沒有的嗎?"},{"start":16297.37,"end":16309.435,"text":"那現在是這樣子,現在是我們假如說在工會法裡面讓警消人員成立工會,那他是有罷工權的喔,是不是?"},{"start":16310.726,"end":16327.583,"text":"他有沒有罷工權所以這個部分可能就是我們條文所以我們才會建議用協會法的方式來處理這個區塊比較能夠階段性的進展跟階段性的處理比較有一個方向跟一個處理的一個措施"},{"start":16329.993,"end":16357.524,"text":"是這樣子假如說立法院是到最後是支持納入工會法像我個人我是覺得應該要徹底的修工人員協會法的落實保障工人員的一定權益我個人是這樣子可是問題是現在工會法已經送進來委員會討論了"},{"start":16359.025,"end":16385.828,"text":"然後沒有同時提出勞資正義處理法。勞資正義處理法裡面是明禁教師罷工的。這個還有一個比較詭異的東西就是禁止勞工罷工的項目裡面列了教師"},{"start":16387.341,"end":16412.191,"text":"教師本身就不是勞工所以這個就是整套法律我們怎麼去規範警消人員真的是很辛苦人力不足這個我覺得你們都必須要帶回去趕快做處理的可是直接納入工會法然後不同時修正勞資爭議處理法這個"},{"start":16417.407,"end":16444.978,"text":"萬一行使罷工權,萬一工會法先通過了,老日正義處理法沒有同時跟上,那警消的工會就取得罷工權。罷工期間,警消負責了全國最重要的事項,"},{"start":16446.581,"end":16457.471,"text":"我舉個例子,譬如說罷工的時候發生火災,然後因為人力不足造成的多出來的損害有沒有國家賠償的問題?有沒有?"},{"start":16461.502,"end":16468.17,"text":"委員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":16478.843,"end":16479.163,"text":"除此之外,會有這麼多"},{"start":16507.398,"end":16508.059,"text":"條及第六條條文修正草案案。�"},{"start":16515.981,"end":16517.783,"text":"​​擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具"},{"start":16544.387,"end":16562.437,"text":"兼修的部分今年開始已經很大幅度調整有在調整有在進步我知道今年已經降到剩下124小時去年跟今年都已經降到很大的程度各項權益保障還是必須要我們同步在進行"},{"start":16562.697,"end":16570.881,"text":"​​議員陳菁徽等18人擬具 «工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案案件事宜等19人擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件事宜等19人擬具《工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案件事宜等19人擬具"},{"start":16591.391,"end":16592.492,"text":"公務人員協會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":16611.167,"end":16639.966,"text":"那太慢現在就只能將錯就錯就是再把不是勞工的反正已經有一個不是勞工的教師納入禁止罷工的行列了可能在工會法修正的同時也必須要把相關的人員的罷工權禁止行使入法這樣子才不會造成國家治安上或者是救災上的空窗期"},{"start":16640.866,"end":16667.656,"text":"好謝謝主席好謝謝楊耀委員本日會議詢答全部結束委員盧憲一陳金輝所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決議一說明及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定本日會議到此結束星期三上午"},{"start":16668.157,"end":16668.76,"text":"上午9時繼續審查現在休息。"},{"start":16677.525,"end":16682.407,"text":"兩人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":16709.749,"end":16715.474,"text":"),委員王育敏等21人擬具:「工會法第四條及第六條條文修正草案 案 案 案"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}