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我還覺得情有可原"},{"start":409.946,"end":438.265,"text":"也一樣是2017年司法國事會民進黨提的一個意見啊拖了這麼多年部長你換我的角度你會覺得有點沒誠意啊還是因為我們總召的那個你比較忌憚他一點對他要保持敬畏之心所以不敢不敢提願板呢是哪個原因啊沒問題沒問題關心你關心你好謝謝謝謝再送我紅菇粿就好了來"},{"start":440.846,"end":459.879,"text":"全力推動 給我個日期 什麼時候願滿到 我沒辦法就你的全力推動 連個日期承諾都做不到因為現在是在行政院的已經審理完畢 那現在就是要進院會部長你看兩件事情 我們總召都看不下去了 兩件事情答應都做不到對不對支持他拖嗎 繼續拖延"},{"start":464.298,"end":491.665,"text":"支持部長 謝謝柯總召啦你看 我們柯總召全力支持你提出妨礙司法公正罪的願版啦柯總召全力支持啊 對不對就印一下柯總召的那個心意啦 好不好那日期呢還是給不出來 一個月可不可以兩個月好了 好不好 兩個月可以了吧還要跟總召商量一下嗎兩個月好不好"},{"start":494.443,"end":519.871,"text":"三個月來三個月反正我等了七年八年了這個會期內啦好不好可以吧部長真的部長其實我給你一個建議今天在柯總召面前展現你部長的擔當柯總召都說支持你提願板啦趕快提出來好不好我們可以嗎"},{"start":521.543,"end":542.217,"text":"好啦好啦 我覺得真的兩個都不及格 你都連日期都承諾不出來再接下來我想要問一下 第三個真的是很無奈的事情我們的偵查不公開 過去五年檢查機關平均每年檢討偵查不公開案件是多少件"},{"start":545.836,"end":568.187,"text":"14501450件2024年偵查不公開之餘的案件以及高查2035件真的是偵查亂公開元年可是到現在為止我覺得部長我每次都要問你你每次回答就是不是檢察官放的就結束了那我跟你說過了違反偵查公開泄密罪是刑事犯罪沒錯吧"},{"start":570.93,"end":579.629,"text":"這個是刑事犯罪 答對啦那我常常講一個事情就是說今天如果質詢部長說現在炸雞案件暴增對不對 有沒有 暴增 對不對"},{"start":581.246,"end":599.57,"text":"炸機案件暴增 我想我們那個以我們打炸四法我告訴你 全方位的那換一個題目問你 我也來不及問了啦依托彌子 我們發現檢驗暴增132倍嘛 對不對我看新聞有報導 沒關係我只是舉個數字 去年的數字"},{"start":602.971,"end":615.757,"text":"結果我跟你講說 欸這麼多這個所謂的販毒的案件齁然後請問我們的破案率如何那如果不敢跟我講說不是檢察官賣的 你覺得我能接受嗎你能接受嗎"},{"start":617.25,"end":640.618,"text":"沒辦法嘛 所以犯罪增防這麼多赤裸裸的偵查不公開你到最後請問哪一件被起訴你告訴我一件就好 有沒有偵查不公開不能就說因為有證據我們就辦嘛你剛剛前面講是有證據就辦好啦好啦 我跟你進到無限的循環裡面我最後要問一件事情 最近的事情"},{"start":641.698,"end":669.38,"text":"那個我想請教一下 這個偵辦 這個我們的檢察官林俊炎那之前發生一個事情就是 他跑到這個省慶津的部分我看一下 他是去省慶津 他在先講啦 這個林俊炎的事情 那省慶津"},{"start":671.946,"end":699.225,"text":"發聲說外面媒體報導說不錄音不錄影跟被告聊一聊然後說沈慶金說告訴沈慶金柯文哲不是好人然後你如果不能交保出去處理你的公司會有問題我先講柯文哲有罪我贊成他抓去關起來但是在刑事偵查的過程當中相應的程序要依法行政對不對"},{"start":700.106,"end":723.002,"text":"沒錯吧我們相信檢察官都會用我知道你現在相信啦包括偵查部公安你都認為說檢察官都沒放啦我知道你一直快相信啦那我想請教你一下為什麼今天去這個對於兩小時的對於這個省慶金的審訊不錄音不錄影為什麼依據是什麼"},{"start":726.448,"end":741.961,"text":"我想這個北檢昨天已經發新聞稿做一個澄清那你告訴我嘛你告訴我啊那個當然是新聞被告要新聞製作筆錄吧因為要筆錄的真實性筆錄就寫一個當事人保持沉默兩小時的密室審訊這個沒有筆錄嘛"},{"start":745.163,"end":758.288,"text":"不是 重點就來啦 你不要讓我會議詢問喔 我跟你講喔 要我會議詢問嗎來我請教一下我們的親愛的主席 檢察官出身的可以審訊兩小時 然後只錄音幾分鐘 然後最後就說"},{"start":762.449,"end":776.133,"text":"都變各說各話嘛 沈靜靜說檢察官恐嚇他但是因為連錄音錄影都不完整啊我想要請教我這個司法實務我不懂我找更懂的主席可以這樣子這個只錄幾分鐘嗎因為本來叫全程錄音錄影製作筆錄的時候就是全程錄音錄影因為現在我們手上沒有當時到底發生什麼事"},{"start":791.698,"end":803.285,"text":"假設沈憶琪說的是真的的話 假設啦那檢察官實在是不應該在私下沒有 會議詢問喔 會議詢問喔我會議詢問喔我會議詢問喔 我會議詢問喔我會議詢問喔 我會詢問今天的刑事偵審程序喔我會議詢問喔我告訴你 請你尊重主席"},{"start":817.114,"end":837.928,"text":"請你尊重主席沒關係你上來你上來要怎麼質詢你去質詢你的你們民進黨會議詢問多到什麼程度你不要再跟我這邊裝王逸傳你不要在這邊裝要上來客講你們權益問題程序問題會議詢問多少次我不能會議詢問今天是我的質詢我要會議詢問是我的權利"},{"start":841.151,"end":857.007,"text":"黃委員如果你不懂會議的程序你可以去看一下過往你不懂跑去研究一下啦你不懂跑去研究一下啦黃委員如果你搞不清楚我問的是我問的是刑事訴訟程序"},{"start":859,"end":879.212,"text":"來主席我不要理他 我重新問一下我重新問主席 主席請問就我問主席就他的檢察官的偵審實務當中可以密室審問兩小時錄音幾分鐘嗎我告訴你"},{"start":884.915,"end":889.342,"text":"他是火灰循環戰 主席回不回是主席決定"},{"start":891.258,"end":913.228,"text":"當然可以回答 懷納為什麼不能回答總照你們會議詢問權宜問題程序問題問多少我不能會議詢問請不要把政論節目那一套拿到立法院來我跟你講 會議詢問是我的權利"},{"start":915.769,"end":936.378,"text":"我跟妳講啦齁我跟妳說黃委員如果妳對我主持有任何意見那妳可以要求把我送紀律委員會我沒有意見但是主持的時候請尊重我的主持主席他會議請問他他已經在執行就沒有所謂的意思因為我才有錢問請你聽我講話啦立法院議事規則就是柯總召議事錄嗎有這種事嗎你聽我講話啦我覺得這是中立的"},{"start":949.163,"end":962.287,"text":"你去登記一下質詢你上來質詢你要講三百分鐘我沒意見你要講到五月十二點如果還要我陪我也陪你你要送我四個紅褲櫃我也收但是現在不是你質詢柯總召現在不是你質詢不要再按麥克風不要再按麥克風現在不是你質詢沒有辦法記一下就有前一個問題了"},{"start":972.551,"end":976.154,"text":"主持會議是這樣 如果我有做不好的地方歡迎把我送居委員會 否則請尊重主席的主持"},{"start":997.415,"end":1010.064,"text":"鄧永昭你在會場上也常常會講很多我們也都尊重你嘛 對不對那既然這樣子的話就尊重美國人的發言啊你趕快主持就好了 不要再一直講話嘛 再自己主持下去就好了來 我一樣 繼續我的會議詢問好了 沒有 我就說齁"},{"start":1014.158,"end":1026.41,"text":"我告訴你 壞納的 你拿一個規矩跟我講不行你拿一個條文出來跟我講不行你們會議詢問多少次你們諮詢到一半也有會議詢問的 少來過這一套程序問題 權益問題 會議詢問都有你們是希望會議順利的進展嗎 還是不要這樣子鬧下去黃國昌不要傻笑"},{"start":1035.57,"end":1045.839,"text":"你要讓會議繼續的進行就麻煩你遵守主席的指示我執行你鬧場啊說我火氣大你怎麼主持就執行你鬧場啊執行你鬧場啊柯建民 總召 偉大的總召"},{"start":1053.406,"end":1070.099,"text":"全世界都有權利叫我時間到你就下台只有一個人盤古開天星海羅盤大師柯建銘你講我就不服氣了你每一次都可以講兩小時啦你趁這個時候還不至於跟我對話你趕快下台啊一起攻啦"},{"start":1077.405,"end":1096.665,"text":"過去執行的時候我都沒人身攻擊 你要人身攻擊不要這樣啦好不好不要人身攻擊啦好不好不要人身攻擊啦因為今天被尋的是法務部官員不是立委彼此不是羅志強來問王一川或王一川問羅志強不是這樣今天被尋的是法務部官員"},{"start":1097.898,"end":1123.097,"text":"那可不可以服從 遵守主席的主持如果我主持不好 那就把我送去幼兒園會否則麻煩尊重不然我跟你講 從去年整個會議一整年下來 就是亂哄哄的我不知道要開什麼會議所以麻煩我們安靜下來 我們把會議趕快進行 就這樣沒關係 總之如果你要把我送 我非常樂意我沒有意見"},{"start":1125.267,"end":1149.098,"text":"我中立的主持請遵守主席的主持好嗎當民進黨的委員在主持的時候我們也非常尊重當柯總召你盤古開天腳我們也很尊重所以麻煩你們也尊重我的主持好不好謝謝總召中不中立都你一句話然後什麼要準時也是你要喊不準時就是你在做"},{"start":1150.216,"end":1168.942,"text":"不要雙標總召這樣不好就這樣好不好我們都安靜下來沒有就簡單我還是一樣主席他剛剛打亂了我再重新提一次到底根據主席曾經有的檢察官的實務我們今天所謂的審訊是不是應該要全程錄音錄影為什麼審訊兩小時可以錄音幾分鐘"},{"start":1172.166,"end":1195.318,"text":"因為這是法律規定的我會議詢問啊部長不肯回答我啊我稍微會議詢問啊這樣好來主席來想請教一下部長來請教一下時間到吳斯陽你不要鬧了玉石是我羅志祥發明的話我今天就立刻下去玉石不是我發明玉石是祖師爺在那邊"},{"start":1197.205,"end":1218.481,"text":"尊貴啊 你一直干擾我多少時間你跟王玉川再加上柯建民三個 時間干擾大師你們老是喜歡在人家質詢的時候 上來搞手腳不需要這樣你不是我對手 我才沒跟你講話我當然不是你對手啊 你時間干擾大師我怎麼不是你對手你還有什麼干擾 還有法案司法的魔法"},{"start":1219.341,"end":1230.987,"text":"你的炮航太高了啦我們就繼續進行好了我們就不要回應其他事來沒關係我就問部長什麼情況之下審訊是不需要全程錄音錄影的可以這樣做嗎"},{"start":1234.056,"end":1262.053,"text":"這件北檢的那個新聞稿已經就那個去見那個審訊的一個被告是全程錄音錄影那我想這個還有三個編護都有在場那我想絕對沒有像那個媒體報導的那一種情形非常好這個北檢新聞稿就做一個情形而且這個是屬於在那跑到醫院為什麼要特別跑到醫院去詢問他這個檢查因為這個裡面他是說他有身體是有不是有住院的情形所以"},{"start":1263.073,"end":1283.634,"text":"檢察官就是到醫院去做一個方式那我再一樣請問這個是非常平常常見的狀態嗎那我想這是社會矚目的一個案件那我就問司法偵審實務嘛一樣問我們會議詢問主席啊到醫院去審訊這個是經常發生的狀態嗎這叫臨時偵查庭啦 臨時偵查庭他本來"},{"start":1284.724,"end":1304.507,"text":"確實沒有辦法從進門到出去都錄影但是基本上他大部分時間是錄音錄影那因為現在就是謠傳我覺得對司法傷害很重所以我很重視這件事情因為如果說你去兩三個小時只錄個幾分鐘那我今天我是在維護司法的將來人民的信任度啦"},{"start":1305.328,"end":1325.7,"text":"那這確實比較奇怪,您偵查庭,你變成勸說完之後再做筆錄,其實我覺得這對司法...那我想這個是個案的話,是個案提出後,那我想這個再...部長我跟你講啊,其實...這個反而自然就會做一些的一個...部長我做一個ending很快,我做一個ending很快啦,做一個ending很快啦,謝謝主席啦我說真的,我們提出這個問題不是來刁難你啦"},{"start":1327.935,"end":1341.606,"text":"因為外界有這個疑問嘛那跟我們自己平常所受的訓練跟所認知到說今天審訊要全程錄音錄影不合嘛當然你剛剛說有全程錄音錄影嘛其實我跟你講部長你不可以干預個案"},{"start":1345.069,"end":1361.725,"text":"但是對於所謂的你今天法務部的行政事項有沒有客尊今天刑事訴訟程序跟所謂的偵查部關關程序這你有行政上的一個指導職責嘛你有行政上的責任嘛 沒錯吧你是行政首長嘛 沒錯吧對啊"},{"start":1363.196,"end":1383.842,"text":"應該沒錯吧 這我沒認知錯誤吧你不能干涉個案 但是你對於說今天偵查部公開發生的問題你有行政上所謂督管之責嘛或者說今天在於所謂的 今天刑事訴訟程序當中有沒有出現問題 你是行政首長 行政督管之責嘛我想我對政府的官員的責任應該我也沒誤解吧"},{"start":1385.475,"end":1400.233,"text":"沒錯吧 各有各失其職嘛所以我回頭還是要跟部長說提這個問題不是要刁難你我說過柯文哲有罪把他抓去關這是我一貫的原則 勿枉勿重但在刑事訴訟程序當中既然發生這樣的一個疑惑"},{"start":1401.414,"end":1419.516,"text":"部長我覺得你們跟法務部跟陳辦檢察官當然要正面回應社會大眾的疑慮啊那今天我要這樣講就是說不是啊我跟你講所以嘛很好啊就是讓你有機會回應嘛你機會把它澄清出來部長已經掛保證沒有所謂的今天沒全程錄音錄影啊"},{"start":1420.339,"end":1440.495,"text":"今天部長在那掛保證啊 從進門開始啊 到結束 徵訊是全程錄音錄影的嘛部長你就幫新聞稿背書嘛 我今天就是這句話嘛 就結束啦非常好 今天部長就是幫這個新聞稿背書嘛說今天檢察官進去就是兩個小時全程錄音錄影嘛"},{"start":1441.475,"end":1466.253,"text":"這個杯檢裡面已經 信務稿已經澄清了是非常好 你背書嘛 對不對那謝謝部長啊今天我做立法委員對於刑事訴訟今天到底有沒有克尊刑事訴訟程序我總有權利要去來去關心嘛不是嗎那我不用 我說過了嘛任何個案勿枉勿重有罪就關啊 我贊成啊但是刑事訴訟程序偵查不公開這是為什麼我們今天這邊必須討論的原因好 謝謝部長"},{"start":1470.779,"end":1470.8,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時10分）有請部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。今天是這個會期第一次質詢法務部，在過去兩個會期，我每個會期都會問你兩個法案的進度，部長知道是哪兩個法案嗎？就是我非常關心的，我跟你已經交流1年了，你對我可能可以多一點認識，有兩個，一個是妨害司法公正，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["羅委員智強：另外一個是什麼？就是棄保潛逃。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是棄保潛逃。"],["羅委員智強：那我想要請教一下，棄保潛逃罪是2017年蔡英文前總統任內司改國是會議的承諾，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["羅委員智強：好，那我看到徐次長在去年8月曾經承諾，在第2會期會把棄保潛逃罪的院版送到立法院來，可是現在第2會期已經結束，第3會期也開始了，我想問一下為什麼遲遲都等不到院版？最後還是經司法及法制委員會我們的在野立委努力之下，才在今年1月完成審議，那為什麼沒有辦法把院版送過來履行這個承諾呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，那個院版在行政院第11次審查會議已經審竣了，目前就是還要再會銜司法院，因為院會通過了，還要再會銜司法院，那院會還沒有通過，當然還要送院會，院會審竣後，再來還要會銜司法院，這樣的話，才能送到大院的司法及法制委員會來進行審議。"],["羅委員智強：我都很想吟一個詩：一會銜、二會銜、會銜完後再會銜。我要跟部長說，如果是從去年開始到部長任內，也就是從新政府開始，可是事實上就民進黨政府的角度來講，是2017年就已經開始承諾這件事，如果到現在連個院版都出不來，拖了這麼久，說真的，我覺得要加把勁，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["羅委員智強：真的要拜託部長，因為這其實應該是大家都還算滿有共識的事，不是嗎？對不對？沒錯吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們會全力來推動。"],["羅委員智強：既然是那麼有共識的事，那就好好努力一下，好不好？有時候這種政府的效率會讓大家覺得有點疑惑。事實上，我也要謝謝法務部，過去在委員會的討論都支持棄保潛逃罪，現在卡關的因素到底是司法院反對，還是哪個單位反對，為什麼會拖那麼久，行政院一直核定不出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是審竣完畢，但還沒有提，現在還準備要提到院會來做一個……"],["羅委員智強：真的是太慢了啦！拜託部長，好不好？真的太慢了，以時間來說，我這樣講應該公道吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想我們的想法、理念都跟委員一樣。"],["羅委員智強：事實上，部長覺得棄保潛逃的問題嚴重嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：在棄保潛逃的部分，我們都會要求檢察官在偵辦這些重大犯罪……"],["羅委員智強：我用數字來問好了，你知道2021年到2023年有多少具保人棄保潛逃嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：棄保……"],["羅委員智強：我不是在考你數字，我只是問一下，三年具保件數是1萬8,058件，具保保證金被沒入的大概3,491件，比例大概19.3%，沒入保證金是7.2億，相當於每5個具保人就有1個棄保潛逃，一年棄保潛逃上千人，平均每個棄保案件只被沒入大概20.7萬，陳啟昱交了10萬跑了，林秉文交了300萬也跑了，我剛剛講的這些數字有沒有錯？這都是我跟法務部要的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這就是數字所呈現的現象。"],["羅委員智強：是嘛！很嚴重嘛！從數字來看是兩成，兩成不能說不嚴重吧！以人數來講是19%，所以這也是為什麼我們一直在請法務部要提出，既然法務部都支持棄保潛逃罪，那麼在立法的速度上，我要跟部長說一件事，我們委員在提出法案的時候有委員的視角，可是如果院版能夠送進來，能夠讓大家的視角更周全的話，事實上，我們會把法律訂得更詳細，這一點沒錯，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我贊同。"],["羅委員智強：所以為什麼我會說院版重要，不能只靠我們立法院，我們還要跟行政院通力合作。接下來我想請教，妨害司法公正、司法關說對司法人員造成很大的影響，有權者會通過犯罪者的不正手段，包括所謂在司法過程當中的一些程序來干擾司法的偵審作為，我想要請教一下，比方柯總召最有名的例子就是，2013年透過當時的立法院院長向法務部長關說，命令檢察官針對他所涉及的全民電通案件不上訴，最後成功脫罪，其實大家都覺得這是一個司法之恥。這是為什麼今天我心心念念，包括跟民眾黨國昌委員一直想要推動妨害司法公正罪最重要的原因，就是要把司法之恥，也就是司法國恥能夠洗雪，我不知道部長對妨害司法公正罪的立場是什麼？你覺得有沒有必要制定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們的草案就有，妨害司法公正罪的這些草案，以本部來講，我們也送到行政院審議了11次。"],["羅委員智強：我就直接問，你給我一個具體承諾，什麼時候院版可以送到立法院？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們再來全力推，儘快。"],["羅委員智強：部長，我看到我們的主角都來了，我就是因為柯建銘總召，所以才心心念念一直提妨害司法公正罪，我今天也歡迎柯總召一起加入支持。我要回頭來講，如果這個題目是今年、去年才提的，你們的院版送不出來，我還覺得情有可原，這也一樣是2017年司改國是會議民進黨提的意見，卻拖了這麼多年。部長，你換成我的角度，你會不會覺得有點沒誠意啊？還是因為你比較忌憚總召一點，你對他要保持敬畏之心，所以不敢提院版，是哪個原因？"],["柯委員建銘：你質詢你的，不要扯到我……"],["羅委員智強：好啦，沒問題、沒問題，我關心您，謝謝，再送我紅龜粿就好了。來，部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：全力推動。"],["羅委員智強：全力推動，你給我一個日期，什麼時候院版到？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法就……"],["羅委員智強：你的全力推動是連個日期承諾都做不到？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為行政院已經審議完畢，現在就是要進院會。"],["羅委員智強：好啦，部長，你看我們總召都看不下去了，兩件事情答應都做不到，對不對？支持他繼續拖延嗎？"],["柯委員建銘：支持部長。"],["羅委員智強：支持部長？好，謝謝柯總召。你看柯總召全力支持你提出妨害司法公正罪院版，柯總召全力支持，你就應一下柯總召的心意，好不好？日期呢？還是給不出來，一個月，可不可以？兩個月好了，好不好？兩個月可以了吧？還要跟總召商量一下嗎？兩個月，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個是在行政院……"],["羅委員智強：三個月？反正我等了7年、8年了！"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在已經要排院會，這個不是我能……"],["羅委員智強：這個會期內，好不好？可以吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們再跟行政院做報告。因為這是行政院……"],["羅委員智強：部長，其實我給你一個建議，今天在柯總召面前展現你部長的擔當，柯總召都說支持你提院版了，趕快提出來，好不好？可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們儘快。"],["羅委員智強：好啦！我覺得兩個都不及格，你連日期都承諾不出來。接下來，我想要問一下，這個也是我第三個真的很無奈的事情，就是偵查不公開，過去5年檢察機關平均每年檢討偵查不公開案件是多少件？1,450件，2024年偵查不公開之虞的案件已經高達2,035件，真的是偵查亂公開元年啦！可是到現在為止，部長，我每次都要問你，你每次的回答都是不是檢察官放的就結束了，我跟你說過違反偵查不公開、洩密罪是刑事犯罪，沒錯吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是刑事犯罪。"],["羅委員智強：答對啦！我常常在講一個事情，今天如果質詢部長，現在詐欺案件暴增，對不對？有沒有暴增？"],["鄭部長銘謙：詐欺案件暴增？我們的打詐四法通過之後是全方位的……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！沒關係，我換一個題目問你，不過我也來不及問了，依托咪酯檢驗，我們發現暴增132倍，我看到新聞有報導，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是去年。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我只是舉個去年的數字，我跟你講這麼多所謂的販毒案件，請問我們的破案率如何，如果部長跟我講不是檢察官賣的，你覺得我能接受嗎？你能接受嗎？沒辦法嘛！所以犯罪偵防這麼多赤祼祼的偵查不公開，請問到最後哪一件被起訴？你告訴我一件就好，有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：偵查不公開不能就是……因為有證據，我們就辦。"],["羅委員智強：你看你又講有證據就辦……"],["鄭部長銘謙：有證據我們就辦。"],["羅委員智強：好啦！我告訴你，又跟你進到無限的循環裡面。我最後要問一件最近的事情，之前發生的事情就是檢察官林俊言跑到沈慶京在……我先講林俊言的事情，沈慶京發聲說外面媒體報導說，不錄音、不錄影，跟被告聊一聊，然後告訴沈慶京說柯文哲不是好人，你如果不能交保出去處理，你的公司會有問題。我先講，柯文哲有罪我贊成把他抓去關起來，但是在刑事偵查的過程當中，相應的程序要依法行政，對不對？沒錯吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們相信檢察官都會照……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我知道你向來相信，包括偵查不公開，你認為檢察官都沒放，我知道你一貫相信，那我想請教你一下，為什麼對沈慶京2小時的審訊不錄音、不錄影？依據是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我想北檢昨天已經發新聞稿澄清了。"],["羅委員智強：那你告訴我嘛！你告訴我啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個當然是訊問被告要製作筆錄嘛，因為要筆錄的真實性……"],["羅委員智強：那筆錄就寫一個「當事人保持緘默」，2小時的密室審訊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有筆錄嘛！"],["羅委員智強：不是！重點就來了啊！你不要讓我會議詢問喔！我跟你講喔！要我會議詢問嗎？","來，我請教一下我們親愛的主席，檢察官出身的，可以審訊2小時，然後只錄音幾分鐘？這樣最後就變各說各話嘛！沈慶京說檢察官恐嚇他，這是因為錄音錄影都不完整啊！我想請教……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個北檢已經發新聞稿澄清了。這個我相信檢察官……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係啦！司法實務我不懂嘛，你比較懂；我現在找更懂的！主席，可以這樣子只錄幾分鐘嗎？"],["主席：本來就要全程錄音錄影，製作筆錄的時候就是全程錄音錄影，因為現在我們手上沒有當時到底發生什麼事的資料，假設沈慶京說的是真的的話，假設啦！那麼檢察官實在不應該在私下……"],["王委員義川：召委……"],["羅委員智強：我是會議詢問喔！"],["主席：王委員，會議詢問。"],["羅委員智強：我會議詢問喔！"],["主席：會議詢問！"],["王委員義川：不能針對個案啦！"],["羅委員智強：我會議詢問喔！"],["主席：會議詢問！"],["羅委員智強：我會議詢問喔！我也詢問刑事偵審程序喔！"],["王委員義川：……"],["主席：請保持安靜。會議詢問。"],["王委員義川：……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，請你尊重主席。"],["王委員義川：你不可以回應啦！"],["羅委員智強：請你尊重主席。"],["主席：那我不管，我就講我的。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，你上來要怎麼質詢，你質詢你的！"],["主席：就個案的部分……"],["羅委員智強：你們民進黨會議詢問多到什麼程度！你不要跟我在那邊裝！王義川，你不要在那邊裝！"],["王委員義川：召委可以……"],["羅委員智強：你要上來就講，你們權宜問題、程序問題、會議詢問多少次，我不能會議詢問？"],["王委員義川：……"],["羅委員智強：今天是我的質詢，我要會議詢問是我的權利……"],["王委員義川：時間到了啦！"],["羅委員智強：我的會議詢問是我的權利，少來！少來！"],["主席：王委員、王委員……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，這是我的權利。"],["主席：王委員，如果你不懂會議的程序，你可以去看一下過往……"],["羅委員智強：你不懂，不懂就去研究一下啦！"],["王委員義川：不能詢問嗎？"],["羅委員智強：你不懂就去研究一下啦！"],["王委員義川：……你回答什麼！"],["主席：王委員，如果你搞不清楚，你就先去搞清楚。"],["羅委員智強：我問的事情是訴訟程序……"],["王委員義川：部長不必回答，他問的是個案啦！"],["羅委員智強：來，主席，我們不要理他，他愛叫就讓他叫。"],["主席：我是覺得不懂會議的進行沒關係……"],["王委員義川：什麼叫不懂？……"],["羅委員智強：來，我重新問一下……"],["王委員義川：可以回答個案哦？"],["羅委員智強：主席，請問就……"],["王委員義川：你要叫他回答個案哦？"],["羅委員智強：欸！我問主席就他檢察官的偵審實務當中可以密室審問2小時，錄音幾分鐘嗎？"],["王委員義川：沒人這樣……"],["主席：王委員……"],["王委員義川：……"],["主席：王委員，請尊重會議的進行。"],["羅委員智強：主席回不回復是主席決定。"],["王委員義川：你可以回答啊？"],["羅委員智強：當然可以回答。"],["主席：王委員，今天來開會……"],["羅委員智強：Why not？他為什麼不能回答？"],["主席：今天來開會……"],["柯委員建銘：召委不可以回答！"],["羅委員智強：他為什麼不能回答？總召，你們會議詢問、權宜問題、程序問題問多少？我不能會議詢問？"],["主席：不要吵！請不要把政論節目那一套拿到立法院來！"],["王委員義川：耶！你當召委到底懂不懂啊？你可以這樣問哦……你回答喔？"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，會議詢問是我的權利！會議詢問是我的權利！"],["柯委員建銘：我講……"],["主席：我跟你說，王委員，如果你對於我的主持有任何意見，那你可以要求把我送紀律委員會，我沒有意見，但是我主持的時候，請尊重我的主持。"],["柯委員建銘：主席，他要會議詢問，已經在質詢就沒有所謂的會議詢問，我才有權宜問題。"],["羅委員智強：少來啦！總召！"],["主席：開會也是你盤古開天，每次都你在講啊！對不對？"],["羅委員智強：立法院的議事規則就是柯總召議事錄嗎？有這種事嗎？"],["柯委員建銘：主席，你聽我講話嘛！我主持會議是中立的。"],["羅委員智強：不用、不用！耶！抱歉喔……"],["柯委員建銘：主席就要像法官一樣聽訟，你在那邊聽，你不要加入戰局。"],["羅委員智強：你去登記一下質詢，你上來質詢，你要講300分鐘我沒意見，你要講到午夜12點，如果還要我陪，我也陪你！你要送我4個紅龜粿，我也收！"],["柯委員建銘：你不要在那邊……"],["羅委員智強：但是現在不是你質詢！"],["柯委員建銘：你不要提到……"],["羅委員智強：柯總召，現在不是你質詢，不要再按麥克風！"],["柯委員建銘：我會議詢問總可以吧！權宜問題總可以吧！"],["主席：沒有，前一個會議詢問還沒有結束……"],["柯委員建銘：現在會議沒有辦法進行下去了，有權宜問題啊！"],["主席：前一個問題還沒有結束……"],["柯委員建銘：主席要像法官一樣聽訟而已，你不可以加入戰局。"],["羅委員智強：主席，你們愛怎麼做，我沒意見，今天會議我的質詢時間，我要會議詢問是我的權利！"],["柯委員建銘：主席要絕對中立啦！主席要像法官一樣聽訟而已啊……"],["主席：沒關係，我跟你們講啦！今天是這樣，主持會議是這樣，如果我有做得不好的地方，歡迎把我送紀律委員會，否則請尊重主席的主持。柯總召，你在會場上也常常會講很多，我們也都尊重你嘛！對不對？既然這樣子的話，就尊重每個委員的發言啊！"],["柯委員建銘：你趕快主持就好，不要再一直講話，繼續主持下去就好了！"],["羅委員智強：來，我一樣繼續我的會議詢問。"],["主席：沒有，我是說……"],["柯委員建銘：已經登記發言沒有會議詢問的啦！"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，why not？你拿一個規矩跟我講不行！你拿一個條文出來跟我講不行！你們會議詢問多少次？你們質詢到一半也有會議詢問的！少跟我來這套！程序問題、權宜問題、會議詢問都有！"],["主席：好啦！我問一下，你們……"],["柯委員建銘：主席，這種人完全目無法紀啊！"],["主席：你們是希望會議順利地進行下去，還是要繼續鬧下去？"],["柯委員建銘：你問一下黃國昌看看可不可以好了。黃國昌，不要傻笑！你問他看看可不可以！"],["主席：要讓會議繼續進行，就麻煩遵守主席的……"],["柯委員建銘：主席，你就把他趕下台就好了，換人……"],["羅委員智強：我質詢，你鬧場，然後說我火氣大！"],["主席：我怎麼主持就怎麼主持啊！"],["柯委員建銘：時間到就下台！"],["主席：連最簡單的道理都不懂！"],["羅委員智強：柯建銘總召，偉大的總召，全世界……"],["柯委員建銘：換人質詢！哪有時間到還有會議詢問、權宜問題，根據哪一條可以這樣？"],["羅委員智強：全世界都有權利叫我時間到就下台，只有一個人，盤古開天、星海羅盤大師柯建銘一講我就不服氣了！"],["柯委員建銘：我不要跟你對話，因為……"],["羅委員智強：你每一次都可以講2小時啦！"],["柯委員建銘：我跟你講，你的程度還不足以跟我對話，你這個幼稚園的跟我這個博士班的在講話。"],["羅委員智強：柯總召，我跟你講……"],["柯委員建銘：你趕快下台啦！"],["羅委員智強：你叫人家……"],["柯委員建銘：一鞠躬啦！不要在那裡「卸世卸眾」（丟人現眼）！好不好？"],["羅委員智強：過去質詢的時候，我都沒人身攻擊，你要人身攻擊，不要這樣啦！好不好？不要人身攻擊啦！"],["主席：好，謝謝各位，因為今天備詢的是法務部官員，不是立委彼此，不是羅智強來問王義川或王義川問羅智強，不是這樣，今天備詢的是法務部官員。可不可以遵守主席的主持？如果我主持得不好，那就把我送紀律委員會，否則麻煩尊重。不然我跟你們講，從去年整個會一整年下來就是亂哄哄的，我不知道在開什麼會議，所以麻煩安靜下來，我們把會議趕快進行。就這樣。"],["柯委員建銘：你要被送紀律委員會……"],["主席：沒關係，總召，如果你要把我送，我非常樂意，我沒有意見。"],["吳委員思瑤：好啦！請中立主持啦！"],["主席：我中立地主持，請遵守主席的主持，好嗎？當民進黨的委員在主持的時候，我們也非常尊重，當柯總召你盤古開天地講，我們也很尊重，所以麻煩你們也尊重我的主持，好不好？謝謝總召。"],["柯委員建銘：……中立……"],["羅委員智強：中不中立都你一句話！要準時也是你在喊，不準時也是你在做，不要雙標！總召！這樣不好！"],["主席：就這樣好不好？我們都安靜下來，就簡單……"],["羅委員智強：主席，他剛剛打亂了。我再重新提一次，根據主席曾經有的檢察官實務經驗，所謂的審訊到底是不是應該要全程錄音錄影？為什麼審訊2小時可以只錄音幾分鐘？"],["主席：因為這是法律規定的，所以……"],["王委員義川：……"],["羅委員智強：我會議詢問啊！"],["主席：全程錄音錄影是法律規定的。"],["羅委員智強：剛剛部長不肯回答我，我只好會議詢問啊！"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有關係……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，這樣好了，主席，我請教一下部長……"],["吳委員思瑤：時間到了……"],["羅委員智強：時間到？吳思瑤，你不要鬧了！"],["柯委員建銘：換黃國昌質詢！"],["羅委員智強：逾時是我羅智強發明的話，我今天就立刻下去。逾時不是我發明的啊！逾時的祖師爺在那邊！"],["吳委員思瑤：時間很珍貴。"],["羅委員智強：是珍貴啊！你們干擾我多少時間？你跟王義川再加上柯建銘三個時間干擾大師！你們老是喜歡在人家質詢的時候上來搞手腳，不需要這樣啦！"],["柯委員建銘：羅智強啊！你不是我的對手，我懶得跟你講話。"],["羅委員智強：我當然不是你對手啊！你是時間干擾大師，我怎麼會是你對手？"],["柯委員建銘：你連人幼稚園都還沒畢業……"],["羅委員智強：你還有妨礙司法的魔法……"],["柯委員建銘：你問黃國昌就好了！"],["羅委員智強：你的道行太高了啦！對不對？"],["主席：羅委員，我們就繼續進行好了。我們就不要回應其他的事情。"],["羅委員智強：好，我尊重主席。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我就問部長，什麼情況之下，審訊是不需要全程錄音錄影的？可以這樣做嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：北檢的新聞稿已經就審訊的被告是全程錄音錄影，還有3個辯護人都有在場，我想絕對沒有像媒體報導的那種情形。"],["羅委員智強：好，非常好！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個北檢新聞稿已經做了一個澄清，而且這個是屬於在……"],["羅委員智強：那為什麼要特別跑到醫院去詢問他？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這裡面是說他身體不適，有住院的情形，所以檢察官就是到醫院去做訪視。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，那我再問一下：請問這個是非常平常、常見的狀態嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是社會矚目的案件，被告……"],["羅委員智強：那沒關係，我就問司法偵審實務嘛！一樣會議詢問，問我們的主席啊！到醫院去審訊是經常發生的狀態嗎？"],["主席：那叫臨時偵查庭啦！臨時偵查庭確實沒辦法從進門到出去都錄影，但基本上大部分時間是錄音錄影。現在就是謠傳，我覺得這對司法傷害很重，所以我也很重視這件事情，因為如果去了兩、三個小時，只錄個幾分鐘，而我今天是在維護司法的，將來人民的信任度呢？這確實比較奇怪，因為偵查庭變成勸說完之後再做筆錄，其實我覺得這對司法信任度……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這是個案，這個個案提出……"],["羅委員智強：部長，我跟你講，其實……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個法院自然就會做一些……這是法院的攻防。"],["羅委員智強：部長，我做一個ending很快，我做個ending很快，我做ending很快，謝謝主席。我說真的，我們提出這個問題不是來刁難你啦！因為外界有這個疑問嘛！那跟我們自己平常所受的訓練跟所認知到說今天審訊要全程錄音錄影不合嘛！當然你剛剛說有全程錄音錄影……"],["鄭部長銘謙：它這個新聞稿寫有做全程錄音錄影，而且有三個辯護人在場喔！"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，部長，你不可以干預個案，但是對於所謂你今天法務部的行政事項有沒有恪遵今天刑事訴訟程序跟所謂的偵查不公開程序，這你有行政上的一個指導職責嘛！你有行政上的責任嘛！沒錯吧？你是行政首長嘛！沒錯吧？對啊！應該沒錯吧？這我沒認知錯誤吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有……"],["羅委員智強：你不能干涉個案，但是你對於說今天偵查不公開發生的問題，你有行政上所謂督管之責嘛！或者說今天在於所謂的刑事訴訟程序當中有沒有出現問題，你是行政首長，有行政督管之責嘛！我想我對政府官員的責任，應該我也沒誤解吧！沒錯吧？各司其職嘛！所以我回頭還是要跟部長說，提這個問題不是要刁難你，我說過柯文哲有罪把他抓去關，這是我一貫的原則，勿枉勿縱。但在刑事訴訟程序當中，既然發生這樣的一個疑惑，部長，我覺得你們跟法務部跟承辦檢察官，當然要正面回應社會大眾的疑慮啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有回應啊！"],["羅委員智強：今天我要這樣講就是說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：新聞稿無法一個一個回應啊！"],["羅委員智強：不是，我跟你講……所以嘛！很好啊！就是讓你有機會回應嘛！給你機會把它澄清，部長已經掛保證，沒有所謂的沒全程錄音錄影啊！今天部長在那邊掛保證啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：北檢已經做全程的錄音錄影。"],["羅委員智強：從進門開始啊！到結束偵訊是全程錄音錄影的嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：全程錄音錄影，這個是新聞稿有做一個澄清了。"],["羅委員智強：部長，你就幫新聞稿背書嘛！我今天就是這句話嘛！就結束啦！非常好！今天部長就是幫這個新聞稿背書嘛！說今天檢察官進去就是兩個小時全程錄音錄影嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個北檢裡面的新聞稿已經澄清了。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，你背書嘛！對不對？謝謝部長啊！今天我做立法委員，對於刑事訴訟今天到底有沒有恪遵刑事訴訟程序，我總有權力要去關心嘛！不是嗎？我說過了嘛！任何個案勿枉勿縱，有罪就關啊！我贊成啊！但是刑事訴訟程序偵查不公開，這是為什麼我們今天在這邊必須討論的原因，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝。我們補充介紹吳思瑤委員。","下一位我們請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","柯建銘","王義川","吳思瑤","黃國昌","王鴻薇","沈發惠","傅崐萁","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00011"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}