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就是未來看他們的情況發展我們事先都有一些因為我覺得一定要讓人民安心為什麼我今天會特別提出這個問題因為台積電他投資一千億在美國一千億美元"},{"start":152.233,"end":180.51,"text":"基本上從我們的國安跟我們的經濟其實我們的總統都有掌握很清楚的訊息可是因為我們不方便對外說這是商業機密我們沒有辦法去代替台積電去跟大家說清楚可是卻被誤解了說我們是人家已經結了婚我們才知道"},{"start":182.145,"end":188.592,"text":"但並不是如此所以我今天會跟您提醒說媒體已經吵得沸沸揚揚了"},{"start":190.066,"end":218.068,"text":"但是我們必須跟人民署說的我們公平會也準備好了我們一定有能力審查這個跟委員說明這個能力非常重要不要說事情發生了然後人家質疑一我們沒有辦法回答質疑二沒辦法回答這會寄所謂台積電到美國投資一千億美元這樣的訊息可能會在一級的重砲"},{"start":220.311,"end":240.576,"text":"所以這個對台灣的經濟影響層面其實人民也知道在所謂的投資跟擴廠每一個企業體他一定會在每一個世界每一個國家的點去做他自己最有力有效的一個擴廠"},{"start":242.375,"end":249.962,"text":"所以在台積電它已經擴大到全世界都需要它的晶片"},{"start":251.846,"end":276.041,"text":"所以他勢必一定要在全世界設廠跟我們台灣的能量其實沒有影響因為我們台灣我們還是在接單我們的擴廠還是繼續沒有影響到台積電在原本台灣設廠的一個計畫並沒有可是現在大家就會有很多的故事會產生"},{"start":278.237,"end":301.494,"text":"我也跟委員報告啦 如果針對目前大家關切的議題從競爭的部分 從公平會接受審查的部分現在大家關心的議題在我們的架構底下我們都可以審查所以我覺得代理主委在現階段媒體潮的沸沸揚揚的當中勢必我們也應該要對外表達我們的態度沒有問題 我們也準備好了當"},{"start":302.995,"end":330.422,"text":"必須要進到我們公平會審查的機制只要是在法規已經到了我們國家所訂定的標準那麼我們審查是沒有問題我覺得應該要對外很清楚的表達第二個部分就是說我們公平交易法其實從2023年的6月預告修法草案到現在"},{"start":331.932,"end":357.399,"text":"請問我們現在的進度是如何我們的修法草案也經過對外徵詢 學者專家座談其實我們已經擬出我們的版本 目前已經在行政院已經在行政院 院會討論對 未來就配合行政院那邊的進度那院會討論了嗎還沒有討論還沒討論那你從2023 6月預告修法草案到現在然後到目前今年是幾年了2025"},{"start":360.96,"end":388.232,"text":"居然行政院院會還沒討論你知道現在的公平交易法為什麼過去到現在過去那已經是沒有辦法符合現在所謂整個交易市場的一個趨勢所以很多法已經沒有辦法控制現在目前所謂交易的狀況導致人家在想辦法"},{"start":390.075,"end":405.854,"text":"對我們的消費者其實是很大的一個壓力甚至每一次檢舉都沒有辦法到位因為我們的法就已經沒有辦法來保護到我們所有的在交易一方弱勢的部分"},{"start":407.99,"end":413.458,"text":"我想我原期的就是我們要修法的原因啦要與時俱進那我們會持續來跟行政院那邊來溝通啦2023年6月預告修法草案到現在"},{"start":421.144,"end":447.574,"text":"我們提的案我有提修法草案也就是針對整個事業結合申報的門檻擴大聯合行為規範的範疇修正行政調查的規定還有真定判決書一定要登載在新聞電子報當中讓大家知道哪些是惡質的一個企業行為讓他們清楚哪些已經被判了"},{"start":448.354,"end":476.547,"text":"我們所有的一個消費行為就要小心還有要修正違法結合的行政責任規定還有強化不公平競爭的監管力度還有效果我們現在的監管力度太低了所以每次只要檢舉到我們公平會最後都是查無實證結束掉那對於"},{"start":477.921,"end":489.13,"text":"弱勢的一方是很傷所以強者越強 弱者越弱是現在公平教育法裡面所呈現的不公平狀態"},{"start":491.024,"end":514.068,"text":"所以大家期待這一部法令的修法期待那麼久為什麼修不出來2023年6月預告到現在居然到現在修不出來原因在哪裡我想這裡面主要是在修法的這幾點當中有些點社會當中有一些比較不一樣的看法那需要再進一步的討論就對外徵詢裡面有一些想法"},{"start":514.708,"end":542.54,"text":"是啊對外徵詢完之後我們要利用這些徵詢意見的不同陸續去開很多的協調會跟座談會然後代理主委我要報告當然會有漢格啊當弱勢的一方跟強勢的一方會不會有漢格你要站在哪一個位置我們要保護弱勢的一方啊當我們保護他的時候"},{"start":543.717,"end":557.233,"text":"我們給予強勢的一方更多的監管當然他們會有意見啊他們不會那麼笨吧笨到不會為自己表達意見可是是在於你公平會站在哪一個角度"},{"start":559.281,"end":578.03,"text":"你公平會站在哪一個角度對啊 事實上我們持續都有在跟這些不同意見來做一些共同的對 重點是在於你公平會站在哪一個角度嘛你要站在弱勢的一方還是強勢的一方嘛你要怎麼去做一個平台去調和嘛我們的職責當然是從保護市場競爭來落實保護消費者是啊所以當然會有漢格啊"},{"start":584.264,"end":612.287,"text":"那如果你因為漢格因為大家意見不同一直拖我告訴你公民教育法修不出來絕對修不出來我們都持續要跟行政院怎麼沒有拖2023年6月預告到現在預告到現在現在已經2025年的3月份了所以我想因為現在在行政院那邊我們會持續跟行政院來看這個進度多久你預計多久你覺得多久"},{"start":613.471,"end":627.905,"text":"還是你要跟我們講說我們再請公平教育委員會的主委出來之後再說那時候要出來什麼時候要出來不知道我想這部分我們還是要跟行政院這邊來密切的來溝通一下對 多久你們預計嘛"},{"start":629.346,"end":650.499,"text":"你們預計多久嘛從2023年6月拖到現在馬上要兩年了因為行政院那邊還有很多的他們要處理很多事情所以你也不敢定時間嘛所以就表示說這是遙遙無期的嘛可是你知道這個遙遙無期會影響多少在市場競爭弱勢一方他的權益我們會緊記在心啦會持續來關切這個問題那個主委"},{"start":659.312,"end":677.889,"text":"我需要一個月給我報告進度好不好報告現在到底到哪一個進度我沒有說叫你一個月要申出來啦我沒有那麼殘忍因為我知道這當中有多必須要協調的一個月報告進度好嗎 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":163,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時41分）謝謝主席。召委，我請代理主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：陳委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，最近台積電的議題非常夯。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：現在一直在討論台積電未來如果跟英特爾合併，他們有合併的相關計畫，或是合作的計畫，針對這個部分，公平會會扮演什麼樣的角色？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：首先要說明，台積電跟英特爾合併，目前是媒體上的傳聞，當事人都還沒有正式去證實。本會對於他們結合的立場是，如果將來真的發生這樣的事情，我們第一個當然要看他們合作的模式到底是怎麼樣，如果符合我們公平法的結合，以他們的市占率也好，營業額也好，已經達到了門檻，我們當然必須要審查。"],["陳委員亭妃：怎麼審查？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：審查就是依照一般的結合案件，我們在處理水平結合，像是Uber Eats等等，有一套標準來審查這個東西，當然科技業比較特別的是，創新的因素可能我們也會納入慎重的考慮。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，我想他們兩個是極大，這個真的是大事，而且對於我們臺灣來講，如果依照他們的營業額是一定要審查的，不可能不審查，這兩個這麼大……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：這麼大的企業如果做結合或合併，那真的是國際間的大事。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是、是。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你們應該要準備好，現在媒體不斷的在討論，雖然還沒有得到這些訊息，可是你們勢必要有所準備，萬一發生了，你們是不是有這樣的能力去審查這樣的相關機制，這才是重點。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：有，我們內部已經有在準備了。"],["陳委員亭妃：有在準備嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：有在準備。"],["陳委員亭妃：有在因應這個事件發生？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，未來看他們的情況發展，我們事先都有一些……"],["陳委員亭妃：我覺得一定要讓人民安心，為什麼我今天會特別提出這個問題？因為台積電在美國投資1,000億美元。從我們的國安跟經濟，其實我們總統都有掌握很清楚的訊息，可是我們不方便對外說，這是商業機密，我們沒有辦法代替台積電去跟大家說清楚，可是卻被誤解說：人家已經結了婚，我們才知道。並不是如此，所以我今天會跟您提醒，媒體已經炒得沸沸揚揚了，但是我們必須跟人民說：公平會也準備好了。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：跟委員說明，我們一定有能力審查。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個能力非常重要，不要事情發生了，人家質疑一你們沒有辦法回答，質疑二也沒辦法回答，這可能會是繼台積電到美國投資1,000億美元的訊息之後再一記重砲。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以這對臺灣的經濟影響層面……其實人民也知道，所謂的投資跟擴廠，每一個企業體一定會在世界每一個國家的點去做對他們自己最有利、有效的擴廠，台積電已經擴大到全世界都需要他們的晶片，所以他們勢必要在全世界設廠，跟我們臺灣的能量其實沒有影響，因為我們臺灣還是在接單，擴廠還是繼續，並沒有影響台積電原本在臺灣設廠的計畫，可是現在大家就會有很多的故事產生。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我也跟委員報告，針對目前大家關切的議題，從競爭的部分、從公平會的結合審查的部分，現在大家關心的議題，在我們的架構底下，我們都可以審查。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以代理主委，我覺得現階段媒體炒得沸沸揚揚，勢必你們也應該要對外表達你們的態度：沒有問題，我們也準備好了。當要進到公平會審查的機制，只要法規已經到了我們國家所訂定的標準，那麼你們審查是沒有問題的。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，沒問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：我覺得應該要對外清楚的表達。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：第二個部分，公平交易法其實從2023年的6月預告修法草案到現在，請問現在的進度如何？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們的修法草案經過對外徵詢學者專家座談，其實我們已經擬出我們的版本，目前已經在行政院。"],["陳委員亭妃：已經在行政院？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，已經在行政院。"],["陳委員亭妃：院會討論？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，未來就配合行政院那邊的進度。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，院會討論了嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：還沒有討論。"],["陳委員亭妃：還沒討論？那你們從2023年6月預告修法草案到現在，今年是幾年了？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：2025年。"],["陳委員亭妃：2025年了，竟然行政院院會還沒討論？你知道現在的公平交易法，為什麼從過去到現在……過去那部法已經沒有辦法符合現在整個交易市場的趨勢，所以很多法已經沒有辦法控制目前的交易狀況，導致人家在鑽法律漏洞，對我們的消費者其實是很大的壓力，甚至每一次檢舉都沒有辦法到位，因為我們的法已經沒有辦法保護到所有在交易弱勢的一方，所以……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想委員提的就是我們要修法的原因，要與時俱進。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，太慢了。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們會持續來跟行政院溝通，就是……"],["陳委員亭妃：2023年6月預告修法草案到現在，我們提的案……我有提修法草案，也就是針對事業結合申報的門檻，擴大聯合行為規範的範疇，修正行政調查的規定，還有增訂判決書一定要登載在新聞電子報，讓大家知道哪些是惡質的企業行為，讓他們清楚哪些已經被判了，我們所有的消費行為就要小心，還要修正違法結合的行政責任規定，以及強化不公平競爭的監管力度和效果，我們現在的監管力度太低了，所以每次只要檢舉送到公平會，最後都是查無實證結束，對於弱勢的一方很傷；強者越強、弱者越弱是現在公平交易法裡面所呈現的不公平狀態。大家期待這一部法令的修法，期待了那麼久，為什麼修不出來？2023年6月預告到現在，竟然到現在還修不出來？原因在哪裡？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想主要是修法當中有幾點與社會大眾有一些比較不一樣的看法，需要再進一步的討論，在對外徵詢之後，有一些想法是不一樣的。"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！對外徵詢完之後，要利用這些徵詢意見的不同，陸續去開很多的協調會跟座談會。代理主委，我要說的是，當然會有扞格啊！當弱勢的一方跟強勢的一方有扞格的時候，你要站在哪一個位置？我們當然要保護弱勢的一方！當我們保護他，給予強勢的一方更多監管時，他們當然會有意見啊，他們不會那麼笨吧？笨到不會為自己表達意見？這完全看公平會站在哪一個角度，你公平會站在哪一個角度？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，事實上我們持續在跟不同意見做溝通，未來我們還是會繼續……"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊，重點在於公平會站在哪一個角度！你要站在弱勢的一方，還是強勢的一方？作為一個平臺，你要怎麼去調和？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們的職責當然是從保護市場競爭來落實保護消費者。"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊，所以當然會有扞格啊！如果因為扞格、因為大家意見不同而一直拖，那麼我告訴你，公平交易法修不出來！絕對修不出來！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們不會拖，我們都持續跟行政……"],["陳委員亭妃：怎麼沒有拖？2023年6月預告至今，現在已經2025年3月了。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：現在在行政院那邊，我們會持續跟行政院溝通、看進度。"],["陳委員亭妃：多久？你預計多久？你覺得多久？還是你要跟我講：等公平交易委員會主委出來之後再說？那……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：沒有，委員……"],["陳委員亭妃：什麼時候要出來？不知道！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：這部分我們還是要跟行政院密切溝通。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，多久？你們預計嘛？你們預計多久？從2023年6月拖到現在，馬上要兩年了。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為行政院要處理很多事……"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你也不敢訂時間嘛！表示這是遙遙無期的，但你知道這個遙遙無期會影響多少在市場競爭中弱勢一方的權益？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員的關切我們知道，我們會謹記在心，會持續來關切這個問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，一個月給我報告進度，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：可以，我們可以……"],["陳委員亭妃：報告現在到底到哪裡的進度，我沒有叫你一個月要生出來，我沒有那麼殘忍，因為我知道當中有許多必須要協調的。一個月報告給進度，好嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：可以。"],["陳委員亭妃：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員。","我們下一位請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-2","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","陳培瑜"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}