{"error":false,"id":["159058"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":159058,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159058","日期":"2025-03-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-3-35-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":3,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-03-13T09:45:43+08:00","結束時間":"2025-03-13T09:53:36+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:53","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770ff5dac34a09a9541e6b0a9b5bba3c53abbbf0a69acbcd9c1c975c7bd2c0b6c0015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:45:43 - 09:53:36","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國機國造交機進度及勇鷹高教機失事後檢修情況」，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.35159375000000004,"end":0.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.329093750000002,"end":10.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.750968750000002,"end":11.134718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.269718750000003,"end":32.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.27909375,"end":34.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.46846875,"end":36.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.27409375,"end":38.016593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.40471875,"end":45.509093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.79596875,"end":57.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.182218750000004,"end":64.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.94909375,"end":82.76909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.22471875000001,"end":85.33409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.82346875,"end":89.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.32909375,"end":92.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.14721875000001,"end":104.95971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.44909375,"end":108.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.36409375000001,"end":111.49034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.06409375000001,"end":121.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.35784375,"end":126.82971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.90971875000001,"end":130.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.40721875,"end":134.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.82846875,"end":144.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.68346875,"end":148.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.96971875,"end":155.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.73284375,"end":152.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.58471875,"end":163.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.26284375,"end":164.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.98409375,"end":168.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.56159375000001,"end":176.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.45909375000002,"end":178.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.01596875,"end":177.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.24784375000002,"end":182.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.44971875000002,"end":183.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.47471875000002,"end":185.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.94659375,"end":190.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.87034375000002,"end":192.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.41846875000002,"end":202.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.25659375,"end":203.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.75846875000002,"end":206.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.39534375000002,"end":207.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.12096875,"end":209.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.34409375,"end":213.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.34784375,"end":214.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.05659375000002,"end":217.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.56659375,"end":217.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.95471875,"end":220.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.06409375,"end":220.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.48596875,"end":220.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.53659375,"end":220.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.55346875,"end":220.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.58721875,"end":221.12721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.12721875000003,"end":221.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.22846875000002,"end":221.51534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.31284375,"end":222.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.61221875,"end":222.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.76409375,"end":222.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.86534375000002,"end":222.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.89909375000002,"end":222.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.96659375000002,"end":224.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.00034375,"end":231.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.28159375,"end":241.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.15346875,"end":243.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.09409375,"end":251.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.73846875,"end":251.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.77221875,"end":258.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.12534375,"end":264.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.58909375,"end":262.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.43284375,"end":267.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.38159375000004,"end":267.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.58409375,"end":267.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.68534375,"end":267.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.88784375,"end":267.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.93846875,"end":267.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.74846875000003,"end":270.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.75659375000004,"end":277.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.69221875,"end":287.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.09471875,"end":297.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.11096875000004,"end":299.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.78159375,"end":300.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.64221875000004,"end":303.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.32534375,"end":304.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.48971875,"end":306.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.53159375,"end":310.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.81784375,"end":311.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.21846875,"end":313.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.04096875000005,"end":314.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.22221875,"end":321.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.82034375,"end":323.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.72721875,"end":333.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.71721875000003,"end":336.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.56909375000004,"end":339.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.14659375,"end":340.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.51784375,"end":342.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.05346875000004,"end":350.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.17409375,"end":356.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.97096875,"end":364.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.45159375000003,"end":359.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.19346875,"end":365.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.94846875,"end":388.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.42596875000004,"end":391.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.64909375,"end":393.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.77534375000005,"end":394.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.90596875,"end":409.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.92596875000004,"end":401.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.95846875,"end":419.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.52659375,"end":421.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.15909375,"end":450.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.28534375000004,"end":472.53096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.58159375,"end":473.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.95284375000006,"end":473.23971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.129,"end":1.294,"text":"主席有請顧部長"},{"start":9.569,"end":36.01,"text":"部長你好陳委員好剛才因為您已經回答了幾個委員提出的問題我先就這個部分就教於您跟這個飛安跟這個高教基沒有關係那麼第一個就是說您剛剛提到就是說如果陳峰指示我們也未來共同努力朝向國防預算到GDP3%這個目標共同努力那這裡面我提出兩個建議第一個就是"},{"start":37.318,"end":57.21,"text":"您刚刚提的不对称作战在未来的趋势里面不对称作战一定有很多的无人艇无人机那么这种无人系统的第一个他的通讯频段一定要跟国防部现在通讯的系统做整合而不是商规均用如果将来"},{"start":58.271,"end":85.216,"text":"local wifi或者訊息中斷那這種商規的無人機它的效率就不能發揮所以第一個就是說我們軍中控管的頻道要跟速發部要要求再撥額外的頻寬給我們用現有的頻寬去分配你分配到手的無人機實際上可啟飛運用的價值非常有限那這個是提出一個建議第二個就是因為無人系統了"},{"start":85.876,"end":104.804,"text":"如果我们看俄乌战争它这种无人机是属于消耗型的在乌克兰广大的战场里面看到的不是乌军的设施就是俄国设施所以这种一次性消耗性的无人机它的授权它的战务令或者ROE是非常单纯的"},{"start":105.504,"end":126.502,"text":"如果未来我们使用这种无人系统它的授权就涉及到战务令或交战规则或者武装冲突法这些东西我们希望未来在教学在课程部分尤其是国防大学将来不管陆海空运只参学院这个课程不是属于"},{"start":127.95,"end":143.638,"text":"我们的管理学院的法律系了因为武装冲突法战俘公约甚至我们在海上执法无害通过我们跟海委会海巡署引用的条款都要相同一致这个就是说在预算增加"},{"start":144.779,"end":168.029,"text":"采用了不对称作战下的无人系统以后第一个教育教材训练这个赶快要更新另外一个就是说授权而不是说通通到无人机操作手你就负这个责因此不管是这个配给这个营或者这个联兵旅他的旅长要确定目标目标更换"},{"start":169.049,"end":192.221,"text":"這個不是AI可以決定所以人在指揮鏈路內是不能拿掉的這個我提出來給部長做一個建議是 謝謝委員知道我後面的問題屬於專業問題部長您請回我就跟空軍參謀長談一下這個我先請教一下這個目前的高教基"},{"start":193.496,"end":202.308,"text":"我們現在是先訓教官再訓學人是那目前訓練合格的教官跟目前已經交的飛機他的"},{"start":204.815,"end":231.184,"text":"座艙比大概是多少?跟委員報告是1比1.33這個數字是還不夠了還要努力了那麼達到了教官如果我們希望能夠到1.4甚至更好的話那教官複合變少教官還在訓還有班隊教官在訓一個是教官第二個就是說這些飛行員因為是出教機飛完由合格的教官帶他飛"},{"start":232.344,"end":257.558,"text":"那麼它要飛到多少小時才能夠通過我們的認證那在這個過程中它的任務實際上對飛機來講是一個耗損很多的是屬於重落地那今天裡面提到了這個飛機的這個每小時的維保的成本我想請您這邊做點呼應高較機的維保成本在經過我們計算之後是每小時約莫17萬"},{"start":260.388,"end":287.418,"text":"你這是消耗料配件整個的cycle跟油料費跟二代戰機比的話大概在一半左右另外一個就是因為這個飛機其實是國人大家共同支持的國機國造也希望當初做IDF的研發成果能夠持續下去當然現在裡面已經有很多的性能提升了這個部分我請中科院副院長您一起方便一下"},{"start":294.387,"end":322.862,"text":"我们根据这个政府采购法就是第15条的这个第一款第三条里面因为有很多是伪制协议书研发的另外跟对外的那比方讲高教机是空军跟这个中科院签那么中科院再跟这个厂商再签如果厂商在履约过程中延迟交物是不是会这个罚折"},{"start":324.009,"end":350.715,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們依照我們院裡面的設置條例還有我們的採購的規範的話確實我們在所有的合約裡面都有定有罰則但這個罰則的錢是廠商歸給中科院可是對空軍來講是不公平的因為你的基金進去了是我們也要有依照這個錢也會依照一定的程序包含了我們要上稅然後我們也要繳國庫有固定的比例"},{"start":353.817,"end":380.934,"text":"對空軍這個高架機來講它是這個所謂採購協議書跟中科院中科院再跟廠商捐但是在海軍的這個就是海昌案那它是台船公司又下包給中科院所以在不同的專案中科院的角色往往不同我這邊提出一個建議就是將來開這個旅約督導會一定是軍種中科院跟廠商要同步到"},{"start":381.474,"end":408.826,"text":"那国防部上面的监督单位也要一起参与就是四方重要的角色不然因为有的是协议书那他只能处分你的这个执行人而不能去这个罚折可是那你的回馈呢是你对厂商厂商罚的钱你缴国库可是并没有回到国防部里面也没有回到空军所以这个未来我们大家共同努力希望在这种采购法的全责规划之下"},{"start":410.211,"end":434.947,"text":"對旅約督導能夠周延那麼這一次廠商的延遲交貨當然我們在空軍的角色看如果能夠維持座艙比跟訓員的那個滿足條件下那現階段是沒有問題可是將來這個66架F16V交機以後飛行員的數量又大幅增加因此在這個培訓的過程中間他必須要加快速度"},{"start":435.487,"end":450.667,"text":"那加快速度的飞行时速那这个飞机来讲它的负荷就比较重没有经验的飞行员他落地都是重落地所以对起落架的耗损不是一般的这个问题我们希望中科院跟军总之间在这个地方"},{"start":451.348,"end":473.086,"text":"不管是驗收履约督导或者是跟厂商责任归咎罚折东西有很多折中妥协但是是不是就是让步接收现况接收这个我尊重军总因为你要承担责任嘛那我今天的这个问题啊就提供这边啊给大家做个参考我们共同努力啊支持国防谢谢各位谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":186,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（9時45分）主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳委員永康：部長，你好。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員好。"],["陳委員永康：剛才因為您已經回答了幾個委員提出的問題，我先就這個部分就教於您，跟飛安和高教機沒有關係。第一個，您剛剛提到，如果層峰指示我們未來要共同努力，朝向國防預算到GDP 3%這個目標，要共同努力。這裡面我提出兩個建議，第一個就是您剛剛提的不對稱作戰，在未來的趨勢裡面，不對稱作戰一定有很多的無人艇、無人機，那麼這種無人系統，第一個，它的通訊頻段一定要跟國防部現在通訊的系統做整合，而不是商規軍用，如果將來local WiFi或者訊息中斷，這種商規無人機的效率就不能發揮，所以第一個就是我們軍中控管的頻道，要跟數發部要求再撥額外的頻寬給我們，用現有的頻寬去分配，你分配到手的無人機，實際上可起飛運用的價值非常有限，這個是提出的一個建議。","第二個就是無人系統，如果我們看俄烏戰爭，無人機是屬於消耗型的，在烏克蘭廣大的戰場裡面，看到的不是烏軍的設施，就是俄國的設施，所以這種一次性、消耗性的無人機，它的授權、戰務令或者ROE是非常單純的，如果未來我們使用這種無人系統，它的授權就涉及到戰務令或交戰規則，或者武裝衝突法，這些東西我們希望未來在教學、在課程部分，尤其是國防大學，將來不管陸海空院、指參學院，這個課程不是屬於管理學院法律系的了，因為武裝衝突法、戰俘公約，甚至我們在海上執法，無害通過，我們跟海委會、海巡署引用的條款都要相同、一致，就是說在預算增加，採用了不對稱作戰下的無人系統以後，第一個，教育、教材、訓練要趕快更新。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["陳委員永康：另外一個就是授權，不是說統統找無人機操作手，你就負這個責，因此不管是這個配給這個營，或者這個聯兵旅，他的旅長要確定目標，目標更換不是AI可以決定的，所以人在這個指揮鏈入鏈是不能拿掉的，這個我提出來給部長做個建議。"],["顧部長立雄：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["陳委員永康：我後面的問題屬於專業問題，部長您請回，我跟空軍參謀長談一下這個。我先請教一下，目前的高教機我們是先訓教官再訓學員，目前訓練合格的教官跟已經交的飛機，它的座艙比大概是多少？"],["王參謀長德揚：跟委員報告，是1比1.33。"],["陳委員永康：這個數字是還不夠，還要努力啦。"],["王參謀長德揚：是。"],["陳委員永康：如果我們希望能夠到1.4，甚至更好的話，那教官負荷會變少。"],["王參謀長德揚：教官還在訓，也還有班隊、教官在訓。"],["陳委員永康：是，一個是教官，第二個就是這些飛行員因為是初教機飛完，由合格的教官帶他飛，他要飛到多少小時才能夠通過我們的認證，在這個過程中，他的任務實際上對飛機來講是一個耗損，很多都是屬於重落地。今天提到了飛機每小時的維保成本，我想請您這邊做一點回應。"],["王參謀長德揚：高教機的維保成本，經過我們計算之後，是每小時約莫17萬。"],["陳委員永康：你這是消耗料、配件，整個的cycle跟油料費。"],["王參謀長德揚：是，跟二代戰機比的話，大概在一半左右。"],["陳委員永康：OK。另外，因為這個飛機其實是國人、大家共同支持的，國機國造，也希望當初做IDF的研發成果能夠持續下去，當然，現在裡面已經有很多的性能提升了，這個部分我請中科院副院長一起說明一下。","我們根據政府採購法第一百零五條第一項第三款裡面，因為有很多是委製協議書研發的。另外，跟對外的，比方講高教機是空軍跟中科院簽，中科院再跟廠商簽，如果廠商在履約過程中延遲交物，是不是會有罰則？"],["程副院長一誠：跟委員報告，依照我們院裡面的設置條例，還有我們的採購規範的話，確實我們在所有的合約裡面都訂有罰則。"],["陳委員永康：但這個罰則的錢是廠商歸給中科院，可是對空軍來講是不公平的，因為你的基金進去了。"],["程副院長一誠：是，我們這個錢也會依照一定的程序，包含了我們要上稅，然後也要繳國庫，有固定的比例。"],["陳委員永康：對空軍這個高教機來講，它的採購協議書是跟中科院簽，中科院再跟廠商簽，但是在海軍的這個海昌案，它是台船公司又下包給中科院，所以在不同的專案，中科院的角色往往不同。我這邊提出一個建議，就是將來開履約督導會，一定是軍種、中科院跟廠商要同步到，國防部上面的監督單位也要一起參與，就是四方重要的角色都要，不然有的是協議書，它只能處分你的執行人，而不能有罰則，可是你的回饋是你對廠商，廠商罰的錢，你繳國庫，可是並沒有回到國防部裡面，也沒有回到空軍，所以這個未來我們大家共同努力，希望在採購法的權責規劃之下，對履約督導能夠周延。","那麼這一次廠商延遲交貨，當然我們在空軍的角色來看，如果能夠維持座艙比跟訓員的滿足條件下，現階段是沒問題，可是將來66架F-16V交機以後，飛行員的數量又大幅增加，因此在培訓的過程中，他必須要加快速度，加快速度的飛行時數對這個飛機來講，它的負荷就比較重。沒有經驗的飛行員落地都是重落地，所以對起落架的耗損不是一般的問題，我們希望中科院跟軍種之間在這個地方，不管是驗收、履約、督導，或者是跟廠商的責任歸咎及罰則，有很多折衷妥協，但是是不是就是讓步接收、現況接收，這個我尊重軍種，因為你要承擔責任嘛。我今天的這個問題就提供給大家做一個參考，我們共同努力，支持國防，謝謝各位。"],["程副院長一誠：謝謝委員。"],["王參謀長德揚：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳永康委員發言。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：我們下面請黃仁委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-2","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳冠廷","林楚茵","陳永康","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","邱志偉","林憶君","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":83,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國機國造交機進度及勇鷹高教機失事後檢修情況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}