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是因。那所以剛才黃昌偉講說,依當時的法令,"},{"start":2834.326,"end":2860.187,"text":"然後他意思說當時假如我們接下去馬上處理到一碗直接刑事法的時候依當時的法律錯了這叫依憲法不是依法律直接刑事法假如修了違反憲法的話也是違憲的所以依憲不是依當時的法律這個大家應該我們堅持是這一點至於上禮拜"},{"start":2861.808,"end":2871.994,"text":"有的時候在院長在院長室主找當然來協商含的就是說有關於國情報告今天要處理嘛那來協商還有兩個法OK"},{"start":2876.075,"end":2898.117,"text":"那...那時候是...台灣事實上處於前嘛,我們大家冷靜的講。所以三黨黨邊都有在中間有一些對話,院長你也是在場的。那時候剛才副委員總召所談的就是說,很平時就是講說國情報告怎麼樣,他沒有提到很關鍵性的問題。"},{"start":2899.759,"end":2919.289,"text":"不過他剛才也有談到就是過去李登輝總統那國大說做國情報告經過執行沒有啦那個是那不是執行李登輝總統說國情報告以後這都是統一非啦沒有所謂執行的問題"},{"start":2920.35,"end":2945.071,"text":"那我們今天要回到我們今天要談的核心問題那當然大家都要開天宗收斂化石我記得那時候有國民黨說有洪孟凱委員開始講講了喔聽起來好像沒有條件他們OK的我說洪孟凱你能不能代表副總裁副總裁坐旁邊嘛你們兩個坐在一起請副總裁表示意見嘛"},{"start":2947.551,"end":2973.777,"text":"也講說不是條件在院會發言的時候也講著逛免堂房就是說大概要展開憲政的新業但是呢 國民黨有一個單書要賴總統先來在行政院長是五六年以後他兩個禮拜內要來立法院做施政報告三年前要把出面報告拿出來"},{"start":2974.966,"end":2991.126,"text":"不過,國民黨堅持的是．賴總統先來。這個,這個爭點嘛。那你當時也在場。至於黃國昌委員還講的剛才那樣,依當時的法令,不管你保護5月17號,或是哪一天,因為5月0以後,"},{"start":2992.714,"end":3012.496,"text":"行政院長就要來啊。要宣法他要來做背刑啊。兩禮拜要來啊。你總不能製造先前衝突。我們民眾保證說5月17號每通過的那個直接刑事法是可用的。那我還是堅持依依憲法不是依當時通過的法律。我當時候我問他說依依法嗎?我說依什麼法?"},{"start":3013.317,"end":3024.419,"text":"你有講過嗎?依當時總統的懷疑。就假設明517就要處理這些執行刑署啊。那517能不能處理執行刑署啊?處理到什麼程度?那是另外一回事。"},{"start":3025.154,"end":3050.479,"text":"那資源情報五月十七號當然他有很多很多不是只有國民報告因為描述國會罪啊很多吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼"},{"start":3052.379,"end":3080.161,"text":"那所以這樣的情況底下那黃昌偉要說那就是統問統答什麼叫統問統答聽不懂那意思說民眾黨問完那總統回答民眾黨問完那總統回答我知道講錯你的意思等一下我可以再修正沒有關係那民眾黨問完沒有大概你一個不管怎樣但是要來讓總統回答"},{"start":3082.142,"end":3103.191,"text":"但實現刑事法在這方面規定很詳盡也就是說至於這個多少人問那陳奕迅委員怎麼排那問的時間每一黨政黨比多少但是呢最後主動選是在賴總統他德與否都是他決定我們都尊重當然總統能夠來我會做國民報告"},{"start":3106.724,"end":3120.141,"text":"這是歷經的時刻美國總統做國情報告以後就走得很後悔亦乎如此後悔總統甚至要留下來留下來來回答國會議員的話都被國會議員趕出去"},{"start":3123.525,"end":3139.796,"text":"所以現在我們是在一個要先任時刻同時我們希望打開薰葉讓總統來做國情報告來代表對立法院的尊重那這真的是一個很嶄新的時刻也是光榮的時刻"},{"start":3141.857,"end":3165.745,"text":"他自己諮問來可以我們邀請他都可以這是雙項的我相信賴總統也是立法委員出身的他對立法院也深深了解他也當過行政院長常常來背刑那我現在提議的問題就是說假如賴總統520下禮拜一就禮拜一520上台那當然韓院長也要主持交接嘛"},{"start":3168.947,"end":3174.911,"text":"那後會在卡到前面發表五二零的引述"},{"start":3176.192,"end":3196.713,"text":"你說五二年他講完的話,然後你在五二年以後要馬上叫他來,這件話會有所不同嗎?我們先講清楚啦。這是很簡單的邏輯,但是這個問題還是要回到現場程式去講。我們希望我們立法院是一個可以理性討論的一個場域。"},{"start":3198.955,"end":3220.774,"text":"法院長,我們在三十年前有機會,我們在國會前面改選以後經常去法院來,弄事九年。你今天貴的院長,這民主態度非常珍貴。我們大家一定應該來共同來守護這民主,讓民主在台灣能夠進行。後面李事業也講過,民主非常可愛,可以理性討論。"},{"start":3221.815,"end":3250.441,"text":"所以今天我們講,我有講這些話,也許大家覺得有點自和但是我是佩服自言我今天對任何人都沒有秉諺的意思我只是講出我們共產黨要思考一個問題立法院是一個讓民主能夠進行讓民主能夠繼續發展走下去但是我們不要在這裡製造新任衝突而且討論在這裡製造新任衝突到底行政黨員要來那共產黨員要來"},{"start":3251.201,"end":3265.156,"text":"那我們憲法設計是什麼?我們憲法設計當然是很清楚嘛。是,這是條第四條嘛,第三條。就是說總統、任命行政院長,行政院長來立法院做事宜報告以備刑。這是他的義務。"},{"start":3266.57,"end":3292.262,"text":"那相對我們執行是我們的權利。就是一樣的嘛。假如在行政院法案提呼以後,然後就失敗。也可以倒閣啊。不信的話,然後要解散國會。這是整個憲法的設置。那憲法本文也是一樣的。你從憲法本文要從53條到61條。這就是行政院都說什麼事情。"},{"start":3293.442,"end":3311.467,"text":"六十二條到七十五條,立法院做什麼事情?立法院是預決法律案、預算案、憲章過後條約案等等,及國家重大施政方針。所以我在這裡非常懇請拜託,大家要從"},{"start":3314.104,"end":3330.446,"text":"現任的角度、憲法的角度去看待一些事情。我不想憲法在這裡被謀唆。全世界沒有一個國家,乃至共和國家,對於憲法,任何人對憲法有抵抗權。我們都必須向憲法立法。"},{"start":3331.806,"end":3336.588,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前"},{"start":3349.175,"end":3364.256,"text":"所以我再次承諾這是現任時刻這個也是我們大家要面對的就是說每一個人都要向現任人依託不是應該修憲的東西修憲的你用修法來可以期待的"},{"start":3365.097,"end":3386.249,"text":"這一點我不相信以防王總召你法律博士的素質應該很清楚這個我是覺得大家很冷靜他要來談接下來應該怎麼樣我有兩個真點讓大家都可以討論你這樣我先發表我的看法呃我"},{"start":3392.506,"end":3409.054,"text":"不行不行,中委不是我,不是對我。因為我是以見證人的立場,我要跟院長請求,我是在場唯一一位,現在在場唯一一位,聽取過總統國情報告的前國大代表兼現任的立法委員。好,那我就請龍我在歷史上的部分描述一下,好嗎?"},{"start":3410.715,"end":3426.284,"text":"我中委我沒有對你不禮貌的意思啊那個國民黨團跟民眾黨黨團請問一下對中委員想要用見證者的身份來做一個說明同意不同意這個很重要這個等一下我們還要討論這個啊不是我們抄寫起來沒有"},{"start":3429.546,"end":3453.964,"text":"國情報告是什麼?那個主席沒有同意,請你把麥克風按掉好嗎?這是你的指揮,我是指揮,你在指揮嘛。中委員對不起啊,非常抱歉,因為我們等一下,等一下我們對於誰可以撐交,等一下我們要好好來討論好不好?因為我,因為第一次朝野協商,可能到只有邀請的比較雷厲風行。所以說,如果民進黨黨團請了中委員來說明,我必須"},{"start":3457.566,"end":3465.77,"text":"要尊重一下國民黨團．民眾黨黨團的意見,抱歉喔,這程序上我一定要這樣做,否則此例一開,將來很麻煩。國民黨團．民眾黨黨團必須要表態,因為我不能夠擅自採取。"},{"start":3478.427,"end":3490.876,"text":"沒有,我再請院長才是,因為院長沒點頭以前,我不敢隨便拔眼。那這樣好不好,因為,總委員對不起喔,因為,因為這個東西委員大家相處會很尷尬。那待會再說沒關係。對,我建議是這樣的,跟時間無關。"},{"start":3495.41,"end":3511.175,"text":"跟時間有關,三分鐘五分鐘不是這個問題,是跟我們這個體制有關,真的很抱歉喔,很抱歉。那中委員對不起,我可能要請你離席,好不好,對不起喔,對不起。如果我們討論結束的時候,如果您方便的話,我們達人共識。"},{"start":3517.81,"end":3545.622,"text":"好好好 總委你請坐不好意思喔我沒辦法一把議員委員從議場趕出去這個是何等大事啊那個 院長剛剛你有表示吧 國民黨團表示意見我是覺得我們這個會場還是要有制度啦對那制度怎麼定定的上次院長有說得很清楚就是各政黨可以提出提出要求"},{"start":3546.638,"end":3574,"text":"那院長也同意．其他政黨也同意．那我們就可以來執行那我想第一次因為院長有提出上次這樣的一個議事規則我們也表示敬表尊重那今天現在民進黨有提出希望中加兵委員能夠來做見證的方式講三分鐘基本上國民黨的立場我們基本上我們尊重院長才是好不好"},{"start":3575.698,"end":3590.039,"text":"請問臺灣民眾黨黨團黃國昌總召．於莊家斌委員以過來人的身份．做三分鐘的說明,同意不同意?對不起,競表不同意。第二個部分,也是基於對院長的尊重,就是說"},{"start":3591.673,"end":3613.403,"text":"在整個發言的順序上我可以希望建立一個基本的原則那個原則是說上一次院長其實試圖針對我們大概發言的時間發言的順序跟次數奠定一些規則那不過很遺憾上次的這個規則其實是無疾而終"},{"start":3615.444,"end":3640.475,"text":"沒有任何的結論。」好,那也沒有關係。那如果是這個樣子的話,我們針對一個議題的討論,那是不是可以徵求院長的同意,三個黨團彼此之間就用輪流的,比如說國民黨團發言一次,民進黨團發言一次,台灣民眾黨黨團發言一次,我們透過這樣子rotation的方式,我想說看是不是可以"},{"start":3641.235,"end":3650.408,"text":"更有效率一點。」這個以上是給院長的一個粗淺的一個建議讓院長可以考慮可以參採"},{"start":3658.579,"end":3677.716,"text":"那第二個部分是說在整個發言次序跟發言順序以及會不會發言的整個過程裡面我們都還是會尊重院長對於會議的主持以上謝謝台灣民眾黨黃國昌總召的說明接下來請盧思瑤幹事長請說"},{"start":3680.302,"end":3696.959,"text":"好,謝謝院長。我想先進入一下程序,然後再實質。好,程序的部分,我想今天鍾嘉斌委員他坐在這裡爭取發言跟參與,他是兩個身份。第一個當然他是在場唯一一個國民大會過去曾任代表的。"},{"start":3697.62,"end":3715.162,"text":"那他過去參與過李登輝前總統在國大代表國民大會的時候來進行這個國情報告所以有必要讓他表達一下過去的經驗作為我們今天協商議定在國會立法院總統國情咨文報告的經驗參採"},{"start":3716.824,"end":3738.264,"text":"二、眾嘉賓委員坐在這．同時身兼立法院司法法治委員會的召委．今天在討論總統的國情報告的同時．其實不可切割的．也是剛剛柯總召在發言時提到的．我們同時在司法法治委員會進行的．立法院職權行事法．也就是國會改革法案當中的修法進程"},{"start":3738.844,"end":3758.065,"text":"而當中就攸關總統赴立院的國情報告．修法的內容應當如何。」所以我們在前幾次的協商過程當中也多次跟院長表達過在立法院的協商的現場那相關的重要的委員會議案的召委"},{"start":3758.525,"end":3781.496,"text":"主持的召委．他勢必應當是受邀的列席人員。」這個我們要多次來說明所以今天非常再請兩位謝謝剛剛副總召他認為是尊重院長才是那黃國昌總召是不同意見我還是再發言一下爭取不同的黨團能夠來同意宗家兵委員的發言列席那第二個呢回到這個案子的實質"},{"start":3782.637,"end":3784.958,"text":"如果以國民黨的提案．它的第一句話就是依據美國跟法國的經驗那美國法國的經驗不管是總統制或者是半總統制我們都知道他們的經驗是總統國情報告完之後隨即離開即便在法國的制度上能夠讓國會議員進行相關總統報告的辯論"},{"start":3805.729,"end":3820.143,"text":"但是那也必須在總統報告結束離場之後才得進行。」所以這是我們也在1997年修憲之後台灣才請辦總統制所以相關的法國跟美國的經驗都值得台灣來參採"},{"start":3822.825,"end":3848.603,"text":"總統是報告完之後隨即離開我是先依據這個國民黨的這個提案裡頭那國民黨後面當然也看到上週五願意釋出善意針對這個安排答覆的部分我們可以比較不設前提的討論我非常的認同我們稍後可以來進行那民眾黨團的提案的部分我的就提案論提案他的重點是說依法回應立法委員提出這問題那民眾黨團的這個依法回應"},{"start":3852.405,"end":3870.665,"text":"就涉及我們在安排的制度上如何來處理所以我們在協商中應當來處理的是總統來國情報告時間落在何時那民進黨團的意見跟主張就是依據憲政的權力分立原則應當先由中泰新革魁來進行施政報告之後"},{"start":3872.747,"end":3887.085,"text":"總統再安排。」實踐上,民進黨團的建議是如此,因為這是憲政精神。第二,總統來了,依據《立法院直覺行使法》第15-3講得很清楚,對於委員的發言時間、委員的發言順序,還有"},{"start":3891.71,"end":3918.132,"text":"以政黨的比例各是多少。」這個就是我們今天要討論的所以說如果以民眾黨版的決議的建議案的話是說好像之前口頭上我也聽到黃總召友說到是逐位回應那是每一位每一位A委員問完總統答B委員問完總統答或者是統合全部的委員假設20位委員回答"},{"start":3919.973,"end":3942.919,"text":"詢問完之後總統同意回答。」這個是不同形式。那第三種形式也有可能是國民黨假設五位委員問完總統先答一次。然後民眾黨委員可能是兩位問完總統回答。然後民進黨可能五位然後總統回答。所以在逐位回應上它其實有三種模式。一種是一個、一個、一個、一個輪流問。"},{"start":3944.059,"end":3964.345,"text":"答問答。」但是問答問答我個人是認為可能不太合宜因為他變相的是一種擠問擠答我個人認為那如果說是total假設所有政黨代表跨黨問完可能是20位總統同意回答我認為這也許是可以接受的方式那第三種就是一黨團黨團為單位黨團問完A、B、C三個黨團問完分別"},{"start":3969.786,"end":3970.006,"text":"總統回答。」"},{"start":3988.217,"end":4015.05,"text":"所以這個部分我想是稍後我們在協調的過程裡頭,我們必須來做出回應的。不是喔,對不起喔,你剛剛講這三種模式,第一種跟第三種似乎非常接近,你能不能再解釋清楚一點?好,我現在是預判,不是說可能的方式,就是假設我們,第一個啦,我們剛剛要決定是政黨代表總共多少位,因為那天國民黨的委員向賴世保委員他在做提案報告說明說,"},{"start":4015.59,"end":4015.911,"text":"國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":4036.193,"end":4050.113,"text":"阿我說的ABC是在回應剛剛這個民眾黨他的這個方式依序回答是什麼我只是在設想不是我們的主張這不是我們的主張這不是我們的主張我只是在設想他們的想法是什麼謝謝接下來我們請洪孟凱書記長請發言"},{"start":4052.715,"end":4072.028,"text":"感謝主席我們經過了40分鐘的時間我想正是剛剛主席非常明快的裁決就是已經問到是說到底這個A、B、C的三種方案這樣才有實質討論空間我先開宗明義先說過去要求總統來立法院做國情報告"},{"start":4073.274,"end":4096.793,"text":"不管別人怎麼想但至少我們那時要求總統來做國情報告這都是希望能夠創造一個憲政慣例但是沒有很可惜沒有達成可是絕對不是所謂的政治攻防手段政治攻防手段有承認的只有柯建民總召柯建民總召自己承認說當時必須要求即問即答"},{"start":4097.935,"end":4126.795,"text":"二零一二年講說必須急問急答否則沒有意義二零二四年講說急問急答只是政治攻防手段但是不是每個人都跟你想的一樣所以我想這第一開眾民意我必須要講總之要你的想法不能用你的想法套在每一個人身上這是第一個上個禮拜韓國瑜院長召集這個我們的一個這個協商的一個部分的時候有講到一個重點就說我們也來"},{"start":4127.915,"end":4143.176,"text":"好 聊天的一個部分那也有講到一個重點重點就是說那也要請民進黨的代表回去請示一下賴清德總統因為我們禮拜五的時候其實大家在提案說明的時候也都講得非常的"},{"start":4144.117,"end":4170.36,"text":"這個高度而且看得出來國民黨團民眾黨團以及民進黨團其實也都很希望能夠有一個憲政慣例讓大家能夠看到我們111月13號2024年的國會有個新民意新改變新的格局所以既然有這樣的一個高度的話那我不知道說今天是不是民進黨的代表也應該告訴我們賴清德總統準總統他的想法怎麼樣"},{"start":4171.101,"end":4188.073,"text":"尤其剛剛吳斯堯幹事長講說．他先舉了其他國家的例子．說總統來報告完就要離開．那我不知道這是不是賴清德準總統的意思．我希望不是．如果說這是賴清德準總統的意思的話．那顯然他沒有打算要來立法院．"},{"start":4189.324,"end":4216.032,"text":"溝通、交流。」所以民進黨的朋友因為你們是唯一一個可能跟賴清德總統最接近而且最了解他的意思的人也應該要說明一下說賴清德總統的意思是什麼那以及他有沒有期待的一個做法那今天應該要確認的就是時間跟形式嘛5月20號賴清德總統就職之後我們其實最快5月24那個禮拜五的院會就可以來邀請賴清德總統了"},{"start":4218.433,"end":4234.767,"text":"所以今天協商完只要大家有共識5月24號我們就可以來邀請那5月24號邀請之後再由行政院長來做施政報告我想這符合合憲合法合理合憲"},{"start":4236.288,"end":4264.214,"text":"憲法以及我們相關的立院職權行使法包括第16條新任行政院院長應於就職兩週內向立法院提出施政方針之報告換言之在16條裡面就講很清楚兩週內提出施政方針之報告但是這沒有寫明到底他是提他應該提書面報告可是備受質詢的部分其實是我們立院要再召開協商再來討論"},{"start":4265.154,"end":4284.728,"text":"因為新任的行政院長．也要應該要邀請．如同2016年的時候．要重新再做一次施政報告．這個備詢．所以我們也要求就是．新任的卓榮泰院長．他就職兩週之內．送書面報告．那再接受我們113位委員的一個質詢．這是第一個部分"},{"start":4287.89,"end":4304.612,"text":"二、合法．三、合理。為什麼總統的國情報告要先於行政院長的施政報告?我想因為總統他就是第一我們創下一個慣例第二總統他就是主理國家大政方向的人"},{"start":4305.717,"end":4330.735,"text":"外交、國防兩岸民生議題能源政策這幾個大方向的部分當然要由新任總統來國情報告把他的施政理念大方向確認之後講完我們後續才針對行政院長有點像是現在民進黨政府CEO執行長的概念我們才去盯行政院長及他的各部會主管"},{"start":4331.556,"end":4354.514,"text":"他要怎麼做?怎麼達成賴清德總統的目標?如果說今天是先行政院長來施政報告那賴清德總統後來國情報告那賴清德總統要附和行政院長講的話這樣就有點奇怪了嘛行政院長先說了什麼東西之後賴清德總統來是幫他背書還是否定他還是賴清德總統有什麼不同的想法"},{"start":4355.214,"end":4382.031,"text":"所以我想既然我們要做真真正正很持平的我今天提就是因為未來我也期待國民黨有一天執政當國民黨有一天執政的時候我們也會要求國民黨籍的總統先於行政院長來做國情報告之後再由行政院長來做總諮詢我想這樣子合乎全民的期待所以我結論就是我希望接下來大家發言就是針對說我們到底幾個代表來"},{"start":4383.052,"end":4408.78,"text":"然後什麼時間點如果說沒有一的話是不是確定一個時間點那我們可以後續的談論下去那更重要的是這樣的一個進行方式我們一定要依照立法院政黨的席次比例如果沒有辦法一百一十三席委員的話那也盡量要多以政黨的席次比例來分配那來做我們之前有講我們沒有堅持即問即答"},{"start":4409.44,"end":4433.886,"text":"所以現在如果假設沒有急問急答這樣的一個選項一問一答是一個選項一個委員問完之後請總統回答三問一答是一個選項同問同答是一個選項那我也希望能夠聽聽民進黨黨團的朋友詢問過賴清德總統之後他心裡有沒有什麼想法來可以好好的聚焦來討論以上謝謝"},{"start":4436.188,"end":4455.809,"text":"謝謝紅木凱委員發言,接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言,那個黃國昌委員請準備。謝謝院長,那其實啊,你說國民黨的朋友要求總統,新的總統到立法院來做國情報告,這個其實也符合社會的期待。"},{"start":4456.63,"end":4481.563,"text":"那其實這個也沒有分黨派我看好幾位總統的參選人在這一次在競選之前他們也認為當選到立法院來做國情報告這沒有問題所以過去的是沒有民意基礎的總統接受沒有民意基礎的國大代表在那邊問來問去過去都沒有民意基礎"},{"start":4483.161,"end":4509.239,"text":"老國代哪有什麼民意基礎以前的總統是國代選出來的反而是說國代去要求總統來做這個國情報告還合理啊因為他是他的頭家那現在的民意的總統民選的總統他有民意基礎立法院當然也有民意基礎可是偏偏現在的總統這兩個都有民意的都互不相隸屬"},{"start":4511.721,"end":4530.878,"text":"那一天院長好意就把各黨團將召集大家私底下了解一下其實大家也都有一個默契新任的總統就賴清德總統到立法院來做國情報告這個其實對各政黨來講都不是問題那一天講的大家也都不是問題國民黨也很開放民眾黨也很開放大家都很開放我們也大願意促成"},{"start":4533.28,"end":4544.978,"text":"但倒不是說什麽．像火孟凱剛所提到的說．施政報告．國政方針要在前面．否則行政院長又跟他就不一樣．總統到國會來做一個報告．這個是沒有條件的"},{"start":4548.737,"end":4565.481,"text":"也不會說一定行政院長他報告完行政院長在後面再來做報告這個才是總統到立法院來做報告其實他也不是來做報告是立法委員立法院聽取總統國情報告"},{"start":4567.902,"end":4570.104,"text":"這是憲法裡面的一個規定啊所以賴清德要到國會裡面來聽取這個我們來聽取他的國情報告這個他也表達樂意啊那我們立法院三個黨人大家也都樂意啊所以我反而會覺得既然是美式一窗的話"},{"start":4585.259,"end":4591.984,"text":"大家就來一起來成就它。倒不要一定要弄一個說沒有這個總統要先報告完再來在行政院長在行政院長那這樣有這個順序的話那你總統才到國會來讓立法委員聽取你的國情報告我想如果這樣子的話就有點可惜啦大家都願意來促成的話那是不是大家就把它聚焦說好那既然這麼樂意"},{"start":4613.338,"end":4639.711,"text":"這麼樂意大家願意來讓這個新的總統到國會來那你同樣的啊就照程序裡面就是卓榮泰新的院長那本來就要來對我們本院來做一個負責嘛那報告完以後那你總統他要到國會裡面來做報告他來表示歡迎嘛那以這個大家再來做一個討論讓這件事情來做一個成就的話我想那可能會更好一點"},{"start":4641.532,"end":4659.569,"text":"謝謝莊銳雄委員的反對。接下來請黃國昭總召請發言。謝謝院長。我覺得大概邀請賴總統到立法院來進行國情報告這一件事情。大家前面的發言看起來是沒有爭議。"},{"start":4661.089,"end":4678.03,"text":"那可能接下來．如果讓時間比較有意義進行的話．可能我們就聚焦的談．聚焦的談是說．針對於各個黨團．發言的人數．那以及．各個黨團．分配的時間．"},{"start":4680.072,"end":4692.635,"text":"以及進行的方式我覺得透過這樣的方式來討論我認為會比較聚焦一點否則的話其實花很多的時間在講以前的事情那"},{"start":4694.399,"end":4718.735,"text":"互相的在進行一些政治上面的口水跟攻擊我覺得對整件事情的進展意義並不是非常的大因為其實過去發生什麼事情大家在資訊這麼暢通的時代大概稍微查一下大家也都很清楚所以我是建議啦我誠懇的建議是不是針對時間上"},{"start":4721.096,"end":4734.271,"text":"以及各個黨團．大家發言人數的代表．分配的時間．以及立法院本於自己的主體性．立法院希望邀請總統來了以後．"},{"start":4736.013,"end":4765.233,"text":"那本於什麼樣子的方式．那讓總統在聽取完．各個立委．或是各個黨團的立委．所發表完的意見以後．那他希望透過一個什麼樣子的方式．希望邀請我們的總統來．透過什麼樣的方式來進行．比較聚焦的．比較聚焦的來與討．比較聚焦來與討論．那以上．是我針對接下來的進行．我提供的一些建議．"},{"start":4767.014,"end":4786.389,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召發言,接下來有柯建民總召跟林思明委員,還有吳世耀委員。大概現在我濃縮剛才各位幾位委員所共同所發言的內容,大致上就是總統賴清德如果來立法院報告的時間點,這個似乎有一點不一樣。"},{"start":4787.967,"end":4814.597,"text":"有一方說法是希望在行政院長之前．另外一方說法是不用限制他．可以在行政院長施政報告之後．這是一個重點。．第二個就是發言人數．各政黨的代表．再來．就是發言的模式．是用委員、政黨全部．一個大水庫問完之後．賴清德總統統一回答．還是把它切割為政黨．"},{"start":4816.832,"end":4833.674,"text":"三個政黨為主體統一問完之後．賴清德總統來回答這是這個模式最後就是政黨發言人的比例大致上就是這幾個重點我期盼所有的委員能針對這幾個聚焦一下來探討謝謝接下來我們請柯建民總召"},{"start":4837.83,"end":4856.027,"text":"我仔細聆聽了幾位高見。針對於剛才黃國昌所回答的問題。我剛才就依次發言就問你,是,你說依當時的法律,我說是依現法。這一點我們,我們應該只求對決談清楚。"},{"start":4857.233,"end":4858.894,"text":"現在所有的問題重點是在總統來立法院當然他非常希望來"},{"start":4878.482,"end":4901.642,"text":"任何一個人在此時刻當總統．他認為我走進立法院做國情報告．是國家開啟的心願．也是他個人的光榮。這個問題在台灣已經講了幾十年了。但是呢,重點為什麼都沒有辦法談好呢?當然憲法的規定的問題。我們今天要針對,假如核限性的話,什麼都沒有問題。核限性的時候,"},{"start":4904.172,"end":4929.366,"text":"你法律違背憲法何來合法性呢?這很簡單嘛所以我們今天並不是在講口水或是政治鬥爭這是一個非常重要的憲政辯論我希望大家先定位在這裡不是什麼口水憲政辯論因為剛才鴻文凱委員對我有指證嘛當然我應該亦有回答嘛這很清楚嘛他所講的就是說"},{"start":4930.598,"end":4935.866,"text":"我講的是沒有錯。從來這個題目在立法院就是草匪工房那個假議題而已。為什麼?因為"},{"start":4938.513,"end":4964.488,"text":"阿美錢榮文要來,國民黨說急問急答。賴清德總統說錢榮文要來,我們也說急問急答,我就不要來。那也有不同樣態,但是都繞著一個大家知道沒有辦法突破了何先興的問題,沒有辦法急問急答。所以這個時候,立法院沒有辦法進行就是本來就是一個朝野公報,不是我發明,也不是國民黨發明,兩黨都搞過,七民黨也搞過,大家都搞過。"},{"start":4967.53,"end":4990.298,"text":"這個要先談清楚。並不是我去創造出來的。大家在歷史現場都看過這些事情,很容易Google。我常常說很容易Google,那就Google就好,Google談清楚嘛。那侯文凱委員講的話,海長他說我覺得最快,最快5月24號就可以來,有公示的話。"},{"start":4991.67,"end":5007.246,"text":"有共識什麼叫有共識就是說只要有共識的話是要合憲性才有共識否則的話沒有共識你們剛那天副總召你們在上台講話就講得很漂亮"},{"start":5008.027,"end":5034.37,"text":"但是在迴避問題,總統在在院會講的時候,我們決心歡迎賴總統回梁家,話講得不錯。但是接下來去的國民黨代表是誰?是賴世保。賴世保講的言論就回到,我們孟愷當然言論一樣,很可能當天我們在院長室你也講得很漂亮,什麼都沒有條件,但是賴清德總統進來,這是你合意的。"},{"start":5035.291,"end":5051.743,"text":"但是那天在講話的時候我注意聽賴清德代表國民黨上台發言的時候他就講剛才我們來講的幾個三個發言三個就回答一次那五個發言回答一次賴清德還講說過去是這樣從來沒有這樣的"},{"start":5054.705,"end":5081.118,"text":"所以我們今天要把問題講清楚並不是國際從來不可能如此國際在國大時期也不是這樣所以這一點請大家談清楚沒有所謂的撒A盟要撒A的回答五個無門五個回答這是從來這樣也進行過我不知道但是既然在議事堂講這個事情那今天也在講這個事情我也提出挑戰"},{"start":5083.26,"end":5089.942,"text":"二、國民黨黨團提議：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．邀請賴清德總統至立法院進行國情報告前．邀請賴清德總統至立法院進行國情報告前．"},{"start":5106.821,"end":5132.142,"text":"賴清德總統在民進黨行政院長．行政院長當然了解整個賴總統施政理念．總統他當然不清楚．難道賴總統想講．來講給他聽．他來聽會懂嗎．不可能的事情．所以請不要這種邏輯的轉移．自己自己去想去做．你要了解什麼叫施政．一個國家團隊要去施政的時候．是一個非常龐大的機器．"},{"start":5133.677,"end":5141.941,"text":"新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前："},{"start":5163.516,"end":5172.994,"text":"我們今天要陪到核心事項．大家一道來道去．航空商不講核限性．在講說我們趕快來進行立法院處理性．來計較看怎麼問．"},{"start":5176.693,"end":5201.123,"text":"怎麼問幾個人直接刑事法寫得很清楚立法院早有詳情談這個極其簡單不夠所以今天這是一個先人時刻所以問題焦點在我們要在這裡進行的一個民主要進行的先人體制在這個地方要在國情報告又馬上破壞掉了不可能的嘛所以"},{"start":5202.544,"end":5210.673,"text":"來質疑說總統應該先來。我當然也有不同意見啊。總統指定行政長來對立法院負責。"},{"start":5214.413,"end":5234.342,"text":"這是新任其實規定很清楚那總統先來那這個行政院長這個總統先來這個行政院長至於何地啊?是不是這樣?老大先來他才來多少年來行政院長來立法院被刑看到哪一個總統來過我們民主還不是這樣走過來"},{"start":5235.362,"end":5258.125,"text":"我今天突然說要賴清德總統先來指導期,然後行政院長才能夠來。這是反民主違憲的。我在這裡還是要衷心表達這個,只要我講的不對沒有關係,你們也可以跟我爭辯,都沒有關係。但是我今天要講說,大家要面對問題來說事情。這才是一個核心的東西。"},{"start":5259.215,"end":5277.768,"text":"我以為剛才黃國昌在最後半天舉手有什麼高見要針對何欣欣的回答和何華欣的回答結果他只是在指責說這宗嘉斌硬能你主席沒有同意你怎麼在講話這很奇怪宗嘉斌委員是本黨委員我請問"},{"start":5279.451,"end":5298.952,"text":"本黨委員坐在這裏,立法委員當然是說好這招委,坐在這裏,好像院長您把他趕出去,您主張說他不能,要出去,您說您主張他出去,是不是後面這個人在這邊助理都可以做?難道立委比助理還不能嗎?助理誰進來我們都不知道,後面那一排人我們都不知道是誰。"},{"start":5301.198,"end":5318.147,"text":"所以哪一個主席都要進來?但是政府是什麼?防重匪氣保護人民啊!你以為可以給我一個?助理想進來我不知道嘛!我不知道!那個造業助理還是記者還是人家派來的,沒有人知道啊!這沒有人知道!這你以為可以如此嗎?"},{"start":5319.421,"end":5342.153,"text":"黃國昌委員,你竟然戰神把中央民委員趕出去,這憲政體制是這樣要處理的嗎?請中央院長回答問題好不好?謝謝喔,你不要誤會這個跟黃國昌委員無關,這是我,而且我還特別跟中委員對不起,我說抱歉抱歉,我一直說抱歉,上次跟黃國昌委員我也說抱歉,因為對不起中委員,請諒解一下,等一下下面林世民委員發言"},{"start":5343.254,"end":5365.436,"text":"我要再澄清一下,上次請侯文委員出去說因為我們一開始第一次朝野協商就定下來黨團這個負責人來這裡開會我不是對你不禮貌請你不要誤會我再澄清一遍我實在是剛開始我說抱歉抱歉我不是不能讓你發言我要徵詢其他黨團同意好不好這一點要請你能夠理解也能諒解"},{"start":5366.016,"end":5391.049,"text":"接下來我們請林思明書記長發言。好,謝謝院長。各位委員,我想我又聽到柯總召剛才又在那邊歡帝道講什麼這個總統來國情報告。他的意思好像又說是這個不合憲。其實我想剛才幾位委員的發言講得很清楚。那我們總統這一次來做國情報告,三黨。"},{"start":5392.17,"end":5407.701,"text":"都不認為這是違憲啊。」這怎麼會違憲呢?就是依照我們憲法的規定,就是邀請總統到我們立法院來做國情報告。相關職權行使法,立法院也有這樣的一個職權。所以完全合憲也合法。"},{"start":5408.632,"end":5425.257,"text":"我想他剛才講的重點,一直講的重點,對,所以你要講清楚,因為,所以我想柯總召的意思就是急問急答的部分,總召我在勾起你的回憶一下,你在2012年,你在媒體上講,"},{"start":5433.2,"end":5444.891,"text":"你說針對總統來國情報告．有鑒於國會監督的重要性．他呼籲馬英九總統以急問急答的方式．回答所有的問題．"},{"start":5447.014,"end":5466.974,"text":"所以我想柯總招現在要講說用即問即答是違憲所以我這搞不清楚他的邏輯是在哪裡那我再講剛才那個六熊你剛才也提到了說這個總統也是我們直接民意選出來的立法委員也是直接民意選出來的那為什麼總統要來做國情報告並接受詢答其實"},{"start":5472.759,"end":5494.481,"text":"我想我們現在大家都心知肚明現在中華民國是什麼制度我們的總統他是有權的無責我們行政院長過去要經過立法院同意他的任命但是現在行政院長不用經過立法院的同意所以行政院長某部分來講就等於說是我們總統的幕僚長"},{"start":5496.963,"end":5515.133,"text":"所以我們大家才會希望說總統依照憲法的相關規定來立法院做國情報告對我們的民意我們新民意來做一個負責並接受我們新民意的大家對他的一個相關重大施政方針的一個詢問"},{"start":5516.934,"end":5537.715,"text":"我想賴清德總統他自己也表示很清楚啊我非常樂意啊他選前就這樣講了所以我不曉得今天為什麼還會把什麼這樣是違憲一直把它掛在我們的嘴巴上面所以我希望今天院長我們是希望說大家還是把針對剛剛院長提的這幾個這個到底要用什麼尋答方式人數"},{"start":5539.096,"end":5542.658,"text":"提供新任行政院院長施政方針報告．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":5564.89,"end":5578.84,"text":"他的位階比較大還是行政院長的位階比較大你覺得這符合體制嗎當然是總統先來啊總統先到立法院做國情報告之後我們接下來才請行政院長來嘛"},{"start":5580.021,"end":5593.734,"text":"這完全是符合我們的一個憲政的一個體力啊因為總統才是整個對我們國家的重大方針他要做最後負責的人行政院長只是他的幕僚長當然是總統先來啊這毫無疑問的我不曉得你們還在想什麼還在這個一直講說這個為什麼一定要總統先來"},{"start":5603.484,"end":5630.135,"text":"我們就直覺就感覺就是總統要先來一憲法規律這直覺啊直覺不是這種就是我想人民的民意是這樣是一定要來所以總統啊我以為他是演幕了我現在跟你講說未接啦你們覺得總統後面來對嗎OK謝謝我發言到此結束柯總長麻煩你不要不要按麥克風稍微等一下會讓你發言我再重申一遍我再"},{"start":5636.407,"end":5652.783,"text":"我們現在再講一遍是大概有四到五個主題是真正的就是此時此刻要探討有意義的重點第一個就是總統跟行政院長孰先孰後還是完全尊重總統這是一個可以討論的方向第二我們請總統來的時候每一位委員發言的時間"},{"start":5654.324,"end":5676.386,"text":"例如是五分鐘．有人建議十分鐘．但如果一百一十三個委員派出的代表．如果十分鐘．甚至二十分鐘．適合不適合．還是說為五分鐘．這點請大家就這個主題．發表你的看法。第三．發言人數．我們希望總統來．我們考量他的．"},{"start":5678.735,"end":5701.802,"text":"在這個立法院議場跟大家表述的時候幾位委員能夠把問題問得比較通透一點全面性一點結構性一點等等不管以大家的智慧來判斷發言人數要多少人比較適合再來發言的次序發言的次序是如果以黨團的話哪個黨團先哪個黨團後"},{"start":5707.17,"end":5727.649,"text":"我想我們能不能聚焦在這幾個其他問題我們就不用再探討了因為這第一個問題就很重要了我們尊重賴清德總統你總統認為他要在行政院長之前OK我們尊重也許總統認為行政院長先施政報告他再來我們看各位黨團委員同意不同意"},{"start":5728.783,"end":5747.476,"text":"如果大家也同意能接受只要能促成這件事情每事一樁的話那我想這個我們也可以探討其他的問題情緒性的問題過去的事情我想我們就暫時請大家忍耐一下先不要發表好不好接下來我們請吳思瑤委員發言"},{"start":5750.486,"end":5762.966,"text":"好謝謝院長我想就條文論條文總統要來立法院進行史上第一次的國情報告那憲法第四條第三項是每年集會時得聽取總統國情報告句號"},{"start":5765.376,"end":5793.709,"text":"所以這是憲法的條文那立法院職權行使法第二章之一裡頭我想請大家再把條文可以再看一下好就是第十五條之二寫得很清楚第一項總統來報告然後是進行什麼主題呢是國家安全大政方針這符合憲法所規範的總統的職權是國家安全兩岸國防外交等等"},{"start":5794.529,"end":5821.646,"text":"所以立委的發問或是提問也不應當是涉及過多的內政包山包海應當回到法制面就是憲法對於總統職權的規範以及職權行使法十五之二國家安全大政方針的這個focus所以這個要很聚焦不是包山包海什麼都問然後再看職權行使法十五之四也寫得很清楚"},{"start":5822.606,"end":5846.669,"text":"就是立法委員與總統國情報告完畢後．德就報告不明了處提出問題．所以為什麼有這樣的一個補充．也就是扣著剛剛第15條之二．總統報告的是國家安全大政方針．然後針對這個主題．如果立委們對於總統報告完畢之後．有所不了解之處．"},{"start":5847.33,"end":5870.183,"text":"提出問題。」所以邏輯是這樣順下來所以他就告訴了我們從憲法的規定到職權行使法的再聲明都是在說明立法委員對於總統即使要提出問題要扣合著國家安全大政方針他不是包山包海所以也不會僭越到行政院院長的職權"},{"start":5871.904,"end":5891.026,"text":"這個是非常清楚的法制面好那現在講到為什麼民主進步黨認為應當先由行政院院長來報告之後再進行總統的國情報告呢我想這裡也要跟幾位委員的說法有個回應我認為大家可能在主跟副有一點顛倒了"},{"start":5891.627,"end":5915.336,"text":"我剛剛為什麼一直在說國家安全大政方針這個是憲法跟職權刑法所規範的因為對立法院負責的是行政院院長所以那個主就是立法院監督的對象就是行政院院長所以我們依我們的議程新任的行政院院長葛奎他組成之後要在兩週內"},{"start":5916.776,"end":5938.836,"text":"到立法院來進行施政總報告。」所以他框定了這個時間這是法所明定的這就很清楚的告訴國人告訴國會我們監督的對象是行政院院長所以行政院院長是主喔反而總統來做國情報告是副喔我們監督的是行政院所以沒有剛剛有國民黨委員說是總統先定調了"},{"start":5943.012,"end":5964.958,"text":"然後再讓他的CEO來進行質詢。」並不是這樣。總統focus的是國家安全大政方針,他跟行政院院長要來報告的內政事項是脫鉤的。所以如果說是先讓總統先來,然後行政院院長再來,某種程度是削弱了行政院院長的職權。"},{"start":5966.698,"end":5983.59,"text":"某種程度是在野黨的委員恐怕認為是凡事是總統說了算然後行政院院長再來做後續的執行面的說明跟報告我想這完全錯置了憲政的權力分立的原則所以立法院的主"},{"start":5985.12,"end":6012.282,"text":"主要的內容先後的主是我們針對行政院院長的監督跟質詢總統來國情報告是負所以前後的順序跟邏輯我這樣子再說明就是有憲法的層次跟法條的層次所以我不得不也講到2015年剛剛大家有提到那個時候馬英九前總統是不是要來國情報告我們再回應一下歷史"},{"start":6013.953,"end":6032.601,"text":"王金平前院長．還有馬英九前總統．他們都說得很清楚．總統不是立法院監督的對象．所以並不存在．也不應當存在急問急答這樣的狀況．馬英九、王金平的口徑一致．"},{"start":6033.982,"end":6056.079,"text":"總統非國會監督的對象．國會監督的對象．是行政院院長．所以我終整我的發言．時間上先由卓榮泰率內閣進行施政總報告．這是優先．因為這是立法院優先主要監督的對象．再進行總統的國情報告．然後他應當是全部的"},{"start":6057.04,"end":6074.949,"text":"報告完之後．我們立定了各黨派的代表．政黨比例代表之後．全部發問完之後．總統一次的來做回應．我的主張完全依附於憲法．以及職權行使法．這樣才是合理可行．在這裡補充跟幾位委員做說明報告．謝謝"},{"start":6076.281,"end":6091.662,"text":"謝謝吳世耀委員這麼清楚的說明那至於很細索的發言的時間每位委員發言的時間我們現在暫時還沒有討論到但是最起碼已經把您心中所認為的行政院院長要優先來立法院做報告"},{"start":6093.664,"end":6116.837,"text":"總統的國情報告可以在之後．我想這個第二個發言的內容不要脫離國家安全這四個大政方針那方式的話是統問統答全部一起問完之後再請賴清德總統統一回答這是您的選擇的方式那政黨比例代表跟發言時間因為這比較細索我們稍後再定現在接下來請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":6119.036,"end":6120.637,"text":"謝謝院長針對院長剛剛所點出來的那些問題我們黨團基本上面的立場是說"},{"start":6129.249,"end":6152.569,"text":"行政院院長要先還是賴清德總統要先這件事情在次序上我們沒有什麼強制的要求基於對總統的尊重他希望行政院院長先來接受總質詢完了以後他要再來這件事情我們事實上覺得"},{"start":6154.13,"end":6180.131,"text":"沒有什麼不可的。」那第二個部分是說針對有關於在立法委員提出來他們的看法跟回應以後總統在回應的部分就是因為我們現在還不知道代表的人數到底有幾個人那台灣民眾黨基本上我們就按照政黨比例代表公平的計算"},{"start":6181.112,"end":6195.685,"text":"我們不會有多的要求就按照政黨比例代表公平的計算我們不會有多的要求但是在整個回應問題的方式上面不管是幾個代表今天有可能是十個人"},{"start":6196.997,"end":6210.732,"text":"有可能是二十個人因為我不知道最後決定的人數到底會多少我還是會提議說基本上最好是底線是一個黨團問完了以後"},{"start":6212.654,"end":6228.79,"text":"那總統來回答因為針對執政黨的立委針對在野黨的立委那總統針對他們所提出來的一些建言對於總統在進行有關於他的國情報告有不明瞭"},{"start":6230.571,"end":6245.378,"text":"提出的問題讓總統來加以回應,我們覺得會比較聚焦,覺得會比較聚焦一點。」這個大概是我們基本上面的一些想法跟一些態度。"},{"start":6246.358,"end":6260.427,"text":"到目前為止我們大概所有的發言都還是按照院長剛剛的指示在進行發言所以有一些政治上面攻防的口水"},{"start":6261.388,"end":6285.359,"text":"我在這邊就不回應了我們基本上面展現出來的善意跟誠意我相信上個禮拜五院長在召集意見交換的時候我們也都赴了就是赴約了院長您也在現場我們大概所展現出來的態度你大概也都聽得非常的清楚"},{"start":6286.739,"end":6302.556,"text":"至於說剛剛科建民總召所提出來的一些指教或者是說跟客觀事實不符合的陳述我先說明一下基於對於院長的尊重"},{"start":6303.297,"end":6330.449,"text":"我在這邊就先不做進一步的回應要不然會讓整件事情開花開花討論到不曉得到什麼樣子的一個程度譬如說剛剛柯建民說我趕宗嘉賓出去請你回去掉露飲袋我什麼時候講過這樣的話院長問各個黨團的代表說我們的態度是如何我說我競表不同意"},{"start":6331.549,"end":6349.716,"text":"我再回應院長的問題我什麼時候敢中加兵委員出去了那這種跟客觀事實不符合的這種抹黑的言語我上次已經跟院長報告過我們願意坐在這邊就事論事討論問題但並不代表說我們遵守規則"},{"start":6351.127,"end":6376.261,"text":"要坐在這邊莫名的接受其他的人不遵守規則在這邊恣意的亂按麥克風進行人聲攻擊我覺得這基本上面的規則我們還是要建立好我再強調一次基於對院長的尊重我以上的發言就針對院長剛剛希望各個黨團代表所表達的意見我很具體的跟院長"},{"start":6377.242,"end":6392.33,"text":"做報告。」那我希望接下來的討論不要再出現我剛剛所講這樣子的狀態那否則等一下接下來的討論恐怕會開花到一個沒有辦法處理的境界以上"},{"start":6394.299,"end":6413.879,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召的發言各位跟各位黨團幹部報告現在我們協商進行了一個半小時了那跟大家說明一下下週一五二零新總統和新任的行政院院長就要就任了所以本院支簽法新式法規的規定新任的行政院院長兩週之內要來本院進行施政方針報告"},{"start":6415.14,"end":6441.752,"text":"我們是不是就定本週四下午．來進行新任行政院院長施政方針報告．及本院配合研會相關事宜的協商?這一點要一併跟大家報告如果大家能同意的話．我們就確定星期四下午來協商．行政院院長到院來報告的事情．事宜大概約估我們會發通知還有"},{"start":6443.336,"end":6469.955,"text":"研會的事情我們要一併來討論那我知道大家都很辛苦了那我們等一下休息我特別對王部長還有高副主委非常不好意思因為事實上跟各位執掌都沒有什麼直接的關係大家這樣哭坐在這裡我很不好意思主席啊真的是請等一下大家可以休息一下我們把這個第一個議題討論完各位再可以進來沒有問題的請各位去在外面休息一下好那我們先休息我們也休息一下謝謝"},{"start":7176.874,"end":7179.787,"text":"各位黨團幹部我們總召我們各位總召我們開會了好不好好"},{"start":7305.455,"end":7325.882,"text":"好謝謝各位黨團幹部那我建議好我們就總統先來國情說明還是行政院長先施政報告我們先放在旁邊回頭再討論我們先就立法院職權刑事法第十五條之四規定的四個要素"},{"start":7327.325,"end":7343.051,"text":"發言的時間．發言的人數．發言的順序．以及發言的政黨比例．這四個項目．我們先來提出大家的看法．確定完畢之後．我們再來討論總統跟院長次序的問題．好．現在請柯建民總召發言．院長"},{"start":7344.369,"end":7366.247,"text":"那很遺憾講了這麼久我們沒有直指核心問題來處理核心問題不處理的話所謂的記錄性問題是最簡單的今天這個曹偉強這場比喻發言一天結束怎麼樣那個都是很簡單的事情但是沒有把核心問題講清楚的話這個絕對不可能很難很難進行的"},{"start":7371.711,"end":7399.476,"text":"這位黃昌昌委員講說我做人身攻擊我一直問你說合憲合法你要講清楚我回來做人身攻擊呢?因為是剛才一開始齁鍾佳冰委員在這裡韓院長一度想請他出去你也贊成那胡文煦委員說可以留下來你說你認為他留下來是不適合這個剛才就是如此嘛所以說這哪來人身攻擊呢?這帶他回來看嘛"},{"start":7400.496,"end":7420.042,"text":"你說應該出席,我說那不就待遇落條?把委員趕出議場是待遇落條?我真的剛才還講說,留言之餘在這裡,我們都容忍不到哪一檔,也不知道這什麼規則之餘多少還可以留在這裡。所以你講完以後,黃國昌委員"},{"start":7421.162,"end":7434.574,"text":"請你再倒帶自己講你說他在這裡中央院委員在這裡不合適所以我是針對你這個問題的我今天沒有人有做任何人身攻擊只是我們不希望迴避問題我會問你"},{"start":7437.236,"end":7455.735,"text":"核限性的問題到底是怎麼樣你不答你拋出一個統問統答一檔問完再一檔一檔問完回答再一檔那這個就是內向的請問及答所以今天在這個地方大家都要把問題攤開講清楚"},{"start":7459.192,"end":7459.612,"text":"我暫時講過一次"},{"start":7484.736,"end":7512.591,"text":"總統來行政、來議員做國情報告：各黨包括我自己都主張過你要來就有質問及答就不必來這不是只有我我曾經講過這個因為我反對馬英九馬習會以後要來議員幫他我們幫他背書嘛所以當中拋出說你要來就有質問及答當然就是提出這種這種讓他自然而退嘛這個都是一樣大家都很清楚"},{"start":7513.649,"end":7533.437,"text":"那林森委員還在提這個事情這個我已經解釋很清楚不要再提這個事情他說總統來來這個急問急答那感覺上、直覺上是可以的這不是感覺、直覺問題這是憲法層次的問題不是用感覺的憲法是要去實踐的"},{"start":7535.489,"end":7561.697,"text":"憲法不是敢不敢的用直覺的大法官解釋得很清楚你是協法的所以我們在這裡還是弄清楚大法官解釋得很清楚好幾個大法官解釋我們把問題講清楚你一直要用正常比喻正常比喻是最末端的事情最簡單的事情所以至於隔壁統一權"},{"start":7563.617,"end":7578.822,"text":"這裏面只有我和韓院長兩個有行使過的各位同意權但是1997年以後修憲把它修掉了沒有各位同意權那1997年修憲的時候大家注意那次修憲做很大突破"},{"start":7579.895,"end":7597.912,"text":"也就是說過去,過去總統到國大去國情報告的時候．提起建議以外．還有秀海流域計畫．可以檢討國事提供建議．國大代表可以檢討國事提供建議．"},{"start":7599.033,"end":7617.995,"text":"在1997年把這段刪掉只有總統得來那是97修憲的時候97修憲把葛同學修掉97修憲也把省政府當行政排除機關也修了倒閣不信任案以及集商國會"},{"start":7619.597,"end":7646.77,"text":"幫他把立法院人數修到225因為整議員的關係所以大家從憲法來這裡看到這個事情97年這一句話就沒有所以沒有所謂檢討國事提供建言2015年立法院修憲的時候這一句話也沒有了所以大家很清楚憲法的規律是怎麼樣我們現在要問幾個核心問題是核限性比較重要"},{"start":7649.352,"end":7666.454,"text":"所以所謂一黨問完再一黨回答．再一黨問完再一黨回答．這個就是被向了急問急答．當然這個我們恕難同意．所以剛才休息的時間．我問了．副總統跑掉了．說你們國民黨意思到底是怎麼樣．"},{"start":7667.535,"end":7684.7,"text":"因為文章已經拋出一個善意,也就是說他們不堅持總統先來,好,這個好,好不好。那呢,剛才韓院長也講了,我們禮拜四要協商,行政院長要來,什麼時候要來,然後以及也會的問題,或是議事會的問題。"},{"start":7687.421,"end":7695.612,"text":"代表這一部分應該有公式就是說總統沒有所謂要先來的問題這應該是這樣的公式我這樣解讀過有沒有錯我這個話你禮拜四要寫上什麼新任行政院長什麼時候來這塊什麼時候來"},{"start":7704.924,"end":7721.67,"text":"對,只要照我們在現在的朝野協商這個我們加入這個我們現在實現新意識法就是說總統要來要多少人齁那多少時間齁那這種比喻怎麼樣實現新意識法寫得非常清楚就是說要朝野協商"},{"start":7722.403,"end":7738.174,"text":"那最好有一個月時間所以再怎麼樣最快是6月17號了13號以後的事情所以這事情大家很清楚所以我要回到一個問題就是說當初總統來跟我打開天天說兩話一直要講這個問題"},{"start":7740.416,"end":7756.048,"text":"好,總統行政院長可以先來,當然黃國昌委員講了,國民黨意思是怎麼樣?這要回答啊。這上次,上禮拜五我們在院長室的時候,你們只有堅持說總統要先來嘛,這大家要對焦嘛。"},{"start":7757.27,"end":7774.671,"text":"是不是,那到底這個問題誰要,國民黨現在副總統跑掉,誰要來回答這個問題?這個怎麼,這個先處理完畢嘛,再下來,所謂同問同答。同問同答,一檔問完再回答,一檔問完再回答。啊,副總統回來了。"},{"start":7775.812,"end":7794.884,"text":"剛才休息的時候,我也跟副總統談,大家說明的,你的意思是什麼說得好,他說這樣,三個門要回到一半,要五個門要回到一半,這和賴清德講的不一樣,但是老實講說每一個人都要問,好像總統在這裡接受總之行,這不通啊。"},{"start":7798.509,"end":7804.737,"text":"三個問完三個回答回答一次五個問完五個回答一次每一個人都要問"},{"start":7812.228,"end":7835.421,"text":"問不通的嘛所以我們今天要把問題講清楚韓院長我不希望我不希望就是說我們在肢解上一直很注重肢解趕快來協商什麼什麼人數那個都不重要核心事情憲法層次的問題先解決先回答否則的話再怎麼講也講不下去嘛然後黃國昌委員故意說這問題他不想回答"},{"start":7836.321,"end":7856.953,"text":"他只要講核先性與否他不想回答他只要講一檔問一檔回答啊你就回覆我問你的所謂的核心思想是核先性還是核法性要先講清楚嗎那你一直不回答今天鬧了半天就做直播難道我有對你冷口不禁嗎有做人身攻擊嗎"},{"start":7858.394,"end":7886.287,"text":"大家都很冷靜啊。是不是這樣?那另外,院長我還是要講喔,我們立法院你來當院長以後,現在已經進入一個所謂必須面對的升學期了。因為很多法案都到了要表決期。表決前的朝委協商,朝委協商,比如說,我們三次案,我們三長在這裡講究說,法案的朝委協商,出席人數是怎麼樣?你是不能永遠三個人嗎?"},{"start":7887.908,"end":7909.361,"text":"黨兵,三個黨兵不是萬能的。有法案的協商,也有總之,議事院的協商,也有法律事業院的協商。你要尊重,比如說尊重宗教兵委員出來的,那就是一個很好的案例。他是在這個,這個會議室裡面,司法委員會的召委,他當過國大。"},{"start":7910.402,"end":7934.669,"text":"他主持五次民進黨的支持國會執行期數．被國民黨和網民黨團聯合起來．散會掉五次散會掉．是沒收了委員會這些核心問題沒有所以他今天非常有感而發況且他又是中國國大他跟來講國大經驗我就是講那一段"},{"start":7935.949,"end":7962.138,"text":"後來九一修憲把那張文字刪掉。2005我再去玩我們在修憲的時候也把那張文字刪掉所以大家要面對核心問題現在最重要的問題除了這個問題以外就是說院長這是歷史時刻我今天學過臉書很懇切的跟你講我相信你看過我早上晚上有問題常常說晚上學臉書我今天早上起來學臉書"},{"start":7964.398,"end":7974.102,"text":"臺北鄉以前我把我的想法用將近兩千個字把它寫出來因為我還現在是在一個選來的時候韓院長你這"},{"start":7978.163,"end":8003.874,"text":"我們第一次查理學章．第二次查理學章．我們都面對一個挑戰．也就忽恩齊委員跟黃國昌委員．認為這個委員和查理學章．一個月以後．就要直接進入表決．沒有合意院長的查理學章．立法院找到這樣的話．立法院就倒了．而且你院長要怎麼做．"},{"start":8005.514,"end":8032.709,"text":"你最大功能就是之前行政法第68條裡面講的有充斥爭竿的協議以及朝野黨團協商是立法院院長最有力的炮一年來所有的任院院長從來在這個地方是非常堅持的沒有首位就是說來的表格你講說什麼完全沒有到院會的時候我們黨也可能講說聽你討論直接表決"},{"start":8035.11,"end":8061.025,"text":"這些台灣民主我們經過我們有幸經過整個三大台灣人的犧牲奉獻迎來了國會前面改選我們是歷史的幸運不是我們多偉大我們是歷史的幸運你今天貴為行政院、貴為立法院長我能夠在這裡三十一年見證整個國會的發展這是我們要感恩要惜福的"},{"start":8061.725,"end":8082.39,"text":"所以你要很堅定,我們談論問題,要直指問題的中心,不是在旁邊道,然後講半天。到目前為止,所有的代政事項,所有憲法解釋的情形,沒有人要直接要面對。我甚至都期待,我剛才跟黃昌明講說,我們都期待我們在憲法程序來講嘛。"},{"start":8084.291,"end":8098.86,"text":"怎麼決定今天沒有任何人聲攻擊今天大家都很平和但是這是現場時刻所以我對於我們未來馬上很多血傷的問題會存在"},{"start":8101.417,"end":8130.405,"text":"那我們不管有一些規則．把誠信爭議定好的話．這個立法院執筆的問題．已經在．已經在這個上市的．這個論證的．這個場域了．而且這是國家起危機．所以院長請三思好不好．我們不要一直談幾個幾個問題．核心事項、核先訊先談完．整個新的設計事項談完．我們才有能力往下走嘛"},{"start":8132.607,"end":8159.224,"text":"謝謝柯總召的指教不過我要報告一下我們立法院當過國大代表的還有楊瓊英跟賴世寶那今天國民黨團並沒有請賴世寶、楊瓊英過來因為我相信他們一定會先徵詢其他黨團的同意所以我對宗家病文一點惡意都沒有我只是說我們這樣黨團這樣大家有這個默契有這個規範要不要持續下去你"},{"start":8161.297,"end":8188.589,"text":"柯總統你今天請中加病人回來,你沒有跟我先講,那我不曉得他是怎麼樣,弄得我很尷尬,弄得我很尷尬,上一次另外兩位委員,我也很尷尬,因為我如果讓他們發言的話,磁力一開,就假設像今天,國民黨團直接找楊求英跟賴世保說,他們曾經看過總統在國大有做過國情報告,請他們發言,請問一下,你們做何感想?"},{"start":8189.901,"end":8209.129,"text":"這個就很尷尬了不是立法院只有一個宗家兵祝國國大還有兩個所以我真的是如果有必要三個黨團都同意我們一定可以請委員來這裡列席不管就預算就法律上絕對沒有問題的我再重申一遍如果今天這個典範規則如果被打破"},{"start":8210.616,"end":8231.423,"text":"後續的話在發生什麼狀態我當主席也很難控制這個場面請你一定要理解我絕對不是對你或對鍾嘉斌委員有意見好不好好今天我們等一下等一下等一下我回答你一個問題這典範是已經被打破了過去朝野協商的樣子大家都知道"},{"start":8233.027,"end":8247.855,"text":"所有的提案委員．我們想問一個問題．吳志堯委員上次一直講的．我們審查法案的時候．比如說我們今天審查法定塊．是不是也是經過四個縣市．那四個縣市依然發言臺東．"},{"start":8249.616,"end":8254.399,"text":"賴清德總統至立法院進行國情報告前．提議：於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．並"},{"start":8269.401,"end":8297.935,"text":"法案都複雜那 通常有一個法案通常有一個法案只要我比如說很熱門的立法院執行新釋法多少人提案比如說很熱門的這個酒駕有可能五、六十個人提案所以我只是講說立法院從來審查法案就是我提這個朝委已經會來因為朝委要到委員會做報告"},{"start":8298.675,"end":8315.927,"text":"你把他讓在旁邊去．他審完以後．他到院會的時候報告．做報告．他不知道我們這一組要怎麼樣．各黨都有招來要不要來．各黨的．比如衛福委員．衛福委員要不要派代表來．多少人數．人數可以談．"},{"start":8317.408,"end":8333.417,"text":"國防...是不是要找國防委員會﹖否則的話﹖但是當初沒有去過﹖所以我們這個問題要重新好好看﹖現在我們的協商就不是在法條協商﹖那是不是尊重一下主席的發言時間好不好﹖這現在的不是法條協商﹖現在是針對議案、國情報告協商﹖不是,你已經講完了﹖現在是您違規按麥克風﹖"},{"start":8344.003,"end":8348.764,"text":"我還沒講完我從來還沒按掉你剛剛主席已經講了現在請洪孟凱議員發言你剛剛已經多用了十幾分鐘的時間你多用了十幾分鐘的時間你以為在草野上有什麼多用?所以你讓我等一下那個問題我們可以另外來我現在在講的就是核心事項"},{"start":8370.47,"end":8381.678,"text":"那這是大家要面對,如果各位黨都同意的話,我們可以同意的分析。好,柯總統,我們時間就這樣,你先休息一下。我們現在請洪孟楷委員發言,吳斯遠委員、郭昌偉委員也請準備。好,請洪孟楷委員發言。謝謝主席。"},{"start":8389.463,"end":8411.469,"text":"主席我說實在話我今天到現在一個小時又五十分鐘過去我看不懂今天各黨團的山長出來到底是想要促成總統第一次的憲政史的首例還是想要打破還是想要惡意杯葛讓賴清德總統不要來立法院因為我覺得莫名其妙是當有"},{"start":8412.609,"end":8431.784,"text":"協商代表發言的時候用二分之一的時間在前提回顧在講過去明明已經主席講了財事的事情他就是要重複講拜託不要那麼玻璃心好不好如果說什麼事情都要那麼玻璃心花一半的時間來講自己的事情然後玻璃心"},{"start":8433.226,"end":8442.679,"text":"誰不要對號入座。」我到目前為止沒有指名道姓不要對號入座那還有更重要的事情如果說真的有什麼事情要表達的話各自回各自黨團開記者會好嗎"},{"start":8445.035,"end":8469.543,"text":"我們講不客氣的記者會開不夠嗎各自每天早上禮拜六禮拜天都在受媒體聯訪了這樣還不夠還要來協商的時間今天主席定了四個小時兩點到六點但我們要討論是三個重大案件但我們現在連第一個案件都還沒有突破我覺得非常可惜如果說是各黨團想要惡意杯葛不讓賴清德總統創下這個憲政首例的話我覺得這是全民的"},{"start":8473.656,"end":8492.631,"text":"全民的遺憾。」上禮拜五就已經請民進黨團三長先回去請示賴總統他到底他的內線想法是什麼那我不知道現在民進黨團他們提出來是說一定要行政院長先來報告是民進黨團的意思還是賴清德總統的意思"},{"start":8494.933,"end":8517.095,"text":"是賴清德總統覺得是說先讓卓榮泰行政院長上台報告他才願意來還是說其實賴清德總統也沒有這樣子的預設立場因為創下憲政首例比什麼都重要不是嗎那我們也希望因為這個是中華民國建國一百一十三年以來第一次總統踏上立法院所以他有一個很制高點"},{"start":8517.836,"end":8542.309,"text":"大家也都在上禮拜的時候發言的時候也都講得慷慨激昂嗎?所以我們才想是說如果五二零賴清德總統就職之後五二四或者是說在下一個禮拜馬上就能夠安排的話我覺得這對於全國國人都會覺得是說某種程度上朝野和解某種程度上總統對立法院負責某種程度上總統直接面對兩千三百五十萬人直接民意這不是很好嗎?"},{"start":8543.63,"end":8566.895,"text":"那你現在惡意的拖延說一定要行政院長報告完之後才賴清德總統那你是想要成局還是想要破局我就直接問你們是想要成局還是想要破局那再來如果說真的非賴清德總統看什麼時候你來定一個時間假設賴清德總統認為524不行530不行6月5號不行"},{"start":8570.97,"end":8599.382,"text":"那六月十號行不行就是每一個禮拜五看哪一個時間點賴清德總統覺得可以我們先確認下來之後之後的下一個禮拜最後的下一個院會行政院長來總諮詢報告這可能也是我們會禮拜四的時候提出來說如果要協商這個總諮詢的話我們就會這樣堅持那看是賴清德總統他總不會說一個月內他都不願意想要來立法院做國情報告吧"},{"start":8600.452,"end":8610.969,"text":"好那最後怎麼樣的進行方式我想我們國民黨團真的已經釋出很大的善意之前有媒體講說我們堅持極問極答我們沒有堅持極問極答"},{"start":8613.717,"end":8642.102,"text":"到目前為止,憲法規定以及立院職權刑事法規定,我們沒有堅持急問急答。急問急答是什麼意思?就像現在的質詢一樣。立法委員麥克風開著,行政院長麥克風開著,互相問答。這叫急問急答。我們沒有堅持這樣的一個模式。我們也認為只要總統能願意來到立法院做國情報告的話,我們尊重總統的高度。所以,我們講是不是能夠做退而求其次,所謂統問統答的方式。"},{"start":8643.174,"end":8662.744,"text":"人數請依照我們的立院政黨比例來去做一個分派看是十分之一的立委人數還是五分之一的立委人數來去做然後依照政黨比例來推派代表時間一個人假設五分鐘或七分鐘或十分鐘"},{"start":8664.136,"end":8679.234,"text":"行事我認為既然可以統問統答我們希望聽到的是真切的答案也就是總統的高度能夠回答立法委員在這邊絕對不會無地放矢我想大家都在看所以"},{"start":8679.774,"end":8702.366,"text":"吳斯堯幹事長剛剛有提到所謂的國家方針報告那是總統要去注意他的國家方針報告國家安全方針國家大政方針那一樣立法委員提出的問題也一定會針對中華民國外交國防兩岸民生、能源、經濟等重大方向來救教賴清德總統"},{"start":8703.803,"end":8719.119,"text":"只是既然賴清德總統要回答的話我們還是期待就說至少不要全部問完他一次綜合回答難免掛一漏萬再者很多時候可能就會如同外界講了他會選擇性的回答"},{"start":8720.154,"end":8742.764,"text":"因此我們當然希望是賴清德總統能夠面對民意但是在給予一定高度尊重的情況下能夠分階段回答所以看是三位問完總統能夠回答一次還是五位問完總統能夠回答一次來針對問題來回答那我們甚至都還沒有講到總統回答要不要限制時間"},{"start":8745.171,"end":8765.513,"text":"是尊重總統如果總統願意講不限制時間這可能是一個選項或是總統一樣跟立法委員詢問問題的時候一個人有五分鐘七分鐘的限制總統回答也有限制時間這也是一個選項我覺得這個可以討論要成舉我拜託大家拿出誠意討論這一些真的"},{"start":8766.909,"end":8791.524,"text":"去做的事情而不是現在在打高空還在解釋還在說明我沒有那個意思我有那個意思那個回去黨團記者會你們要怎麼開你們要怎麼開直播你們家的事情但是協商時候我真的拜託大家我們聚焦在這些上面那我已經很有誠意把我們的一些方法想法都提出來我也拜託我們其他兩個黨團的代表能夠就這樣的部分來去做討論謝謝"},{"start":8792.685,"end":8795.068,"text":"好,謝謝洪孟凱委員的發言。接下來請吳思耀委員發言。黃國昌總召請,請準備。"},{"start":8798.554,"end":8822.521,"text":"為什麼民進黨團認為我們要在整個憲政脈絡精神和線性先去釐清清楚其實就剛剛我接著洪孟凱書記長所說的其實我真真切切聽到的是可能在洪委員的思考或是國民黨團的思考就已經把總統到立法院的國情報告定調為立委可以來質詢總統"},{"start":8825.227,"end":8848.475,"text":"剛剛的整個發言的脈絡譬如說紅委員說到不要讓總統選擇性回答所以呢要分階段來處理也就是問完然後答一次然後問一階段再答一次其實如果以紅委員剛剛所說的就坐實了國民黨團可能設想的就是總統來到國會是接受立法委員的詢答"},{"start":8849.395,"end":8872.447,"text":"就照著這個邏輯就是我們要說的憲法的精神不是這樣規定的憲法的精神是總統基於尊重國會他願意來這裡做國情報告而國情報告是就國家安全大政方針絕對不是如剛剛洪委員所說的我覺得這個辯論這個這樣子交換意見很清楚因為從剛剛洪委員的的說法"},{"start":8873.687,"end":8893.155,"text":"是足以可以證明您的想法跟我的想法是不一樣的那你的想法跟我的想法一不一樣其實也沒那麼重要重點是憲法所賦予的權限是什麼?憲法所賦予的權限是總統來做報告然後就國家安全大戰發生之後他報告完"},{"start":8894.435,"end":8907.89,"text":"然後如果有立委這個是職權行事法在衍生出來的如果有立委就總統所報告的主題那個主題叫做國家安全大政方針有不明瞭之處委員可以提出問題"},{"start":8909.292,"end":8925.715,"text":"然後總統是只有最後的回應所以總統他當然可以依他認為委員所問的主題是不是他報告的內容也就是總統的憲法所賦予的職權國家安全相涉的事項來進行回答"},{"start":8926.856,"end":8943.946,"text":"那所以我也不好意思真的是要拿出如果依據核限性來講兩個黨團所提的這個院會的提案裡面所要求總統來進行的內容說明其實都溢出了憲法所授權的內容兩個黨團所提出來的這些內容請總統針對ABCDEFG"},{"start":8949.629,"end":8975.757,"text":"之類的主題其實都真的都是溢出了國家安全大戰方針這裡頭你們所列出來的從各種才化法從物價起漲從這個淨零排放產業轉型健保財務穩定保障民眾就醫這些都是行政院長的職權不是總統要來回答立法委員的內容"},{"start":8977.978,"end":8996.484,"text":"所以這個辯論．這個論證是很清楚的。我也認為在這裡對話很有意義。這是史上第一次總統來到國會進行國情報告和線性的認知跟理解,我們一定要先確立。絕對不是立委這麼大說,立委我們說好朝野協商功課就怎麼樣就怎麼樣。"},{"start":8997.904,"end":8998.485,"text":"提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":9019.026,"end":9037.292,"text":"回到核限性．我再次說我覺得非常遺憾．當然今天鍾嘉斌委員不是我們邀請的．因為他剛剛來我也有點訝異．我有跟他說這個是不是能夠發言．我沒有確認．如果剛剛所說的楊瓊英委員．賴世保委員．他們願意來這裡．我相信我們會有這樣子的"},{"start":9038.352,"end":9060.135,"text":"亞亮願意聽聽他們分享過去國民大會幾次修憲然後對於總統從國民大會行使投票總統到民選的這個過渡時段整個制度的延伸是什麼演繹是什麼落成今天的憲法文字增修條文第四條第三項如果說賴氏堡委員楊瓊怡委員今天來到現場"},{"start":9061.536,"end":9077.85,"text":"我想我們民進黨團是非常同意．可以讓他坐在這裡．分享他們過去的經驗．這對於我們對於國情報告的形現．合線性的認知大有幫助．所以我很謝謝剛剛傅昆吉總商．他一開始說他並不反對．宗教兵委員可以發表意見"},{"start":9079.025,"end":9100.091,"text":"那只是民眾黨的朋友認為,好不宜,好。但我還是覺得這是有點可惜的事,因為這有助於釐清合憲性。所以合憲性是什麼,我們絕對需要在這裡釐清清楚。至於安排哪一天,我非常同意院長,就是我們釐定了下週四的協商,我們把行政院院長一直使用行事法兩週內要來的時間先訂好。"},{"start":9102.071,"end":9126.467,"text":"那總統的時間就在訂好的時間之後去談新安排這是OK的因為我們監督的對象叫做行政院長依照我們的議事日程就應當先訂定藉其交換的時候新任閣魁要來施政報告他的時間要落在法定的時間內這個絕對是我們要定的這個是優先的所以主跟父不能前後倒置"},{"start":9126.923,"end":9151.609,"text":"我再一次回到主跟副立法院監督的叫做行政院長的這個部分我再多花一點時間來論述我的想法選舉的時候大學生找座談都願意去然後結果現在選上當選到總統之後然後結果就講說結果就講說要合憲性我們真的覺得國人都看得清楚啦"},{"start":9154.331,"end":9155.974,"text":"接下來請黃國昭總召發言．張瑞雄委員請準備"},{"start":9168.441,"end":9184.755,"text":"謝謝院長。就剛剛依照院長的裁示針對有關於目前立法院職權刑事法第15條之事就發言的時間、人數、順序、政黨比例等事項請我們台灣民眾黨黨團發表意見"},{"start":9188.099,"end":9213.562,"text":"其實我剛剛在發言的時候某個程度上我其實剛剛院長追尋的事項我們都已經具體的表明我再清楚的說明一次整個發言的時間、人數、順序等等我們都願意遵照就是院長只要政黨比例之間彼此公平我們不會有太多"},{"start":9214.723,"end":9241.63,"text":"太多其他強烈的要求。」那只不過說在上一次發言的時候我曾經跟院長報告就是我們如果這個黨團協商要能夠聚焦的話就按照院長才是需要大家協商的事項來進行協商嘛因為這是剛剛院長所提依照現行法的規定我們要針對剛剛所說的"},{"start":9245.044,"end":9268.06,"text":"發言的時間、人數、順序．還有政黨比例的事項．我們現在來協商嗎?那只不過說剛剛很遺憾的就聽了民主進步黨黨團柯建民總召他剛剛所發言的範圍其實顯然的溢出了您剛剛指示要協商的範圍大概從1997年的修憲講到"},{"start":9273.237,"end":9299.437,"text":"目前的草野協商到底要有什麼人才能夠參與各式各樣不是我們現在在協商的事項全部搬到檯面上面來說甚至指名道姓的說我迴避問題讓我覺得非常的困惑我們現在是在黨團協商各黨團表示意見還是正在進行政黨的憲政辯論"},{"start":9301.308,"end":9322.44,"text":"我不客氣的說啊有合憲沒有合憲恐怕也不是在座的幾位說了就算了嘛你主張違憲你有你的看法我不同意我尊重事情就這麼簡單那你如果說真的要講到柯建民當初在講"},{"start":9323.792,"end":9340.398,"text":"急問急答。」他剛剛一直在解釋說那是馬席會他就是不要讓馬英九來我看了一下時間很奇怪當初柯建民跟潘孟安就我們即將要就任總統府秘書長的潘孟安"},{"start":9341.784,"end":9353.967,"text":"說要提問其他的那場記者會是在2012年4月10號所...4月9號或4月10號所召開的記者會因為我看潘孟安他臉書的貼文是2012年4月10號嘛問題是馬習會是2015年11月7號發生的"},{"start":9362.098,"end":9384.443,"text":"所以是2012年4月9號還是10號的潘孟安加上柯建民先坐著時光機預知到三年多以後會發生這樣子的馬戲會所以要提前三年多用所謂的急問急答式政治攻防就是沒有要讓馬英九來當作藉口"},{"start":9385.855,"end":9405.174,"text":"我覺得這個這已經不是邏輯錯案的問題這個是根本就背離了歷史客觀事實的問題那我必須要再跟院長報告一次就如同我一開始前一次發言跟您說明的一樣我們希望能夠遵守"},{"start":9406.685,"end":9433.348,"text":"擬立下來的一些規則以及發言的範圍但是這個規則不要好像只有少數的人要遵守用在柯建民身上就不適用那如果是這樣子的話我說啦接下來討論就會開花就會開花但我必須要為什麼我要強調這一點是開花的責任不在我們身上"},{"start":9434.5,"end":9443.388,"text":"那最後一點我們依照目前憲法徵修條文以及立法院職權新釋法我們提出我們的提案出來嘛"},{"start":9444.432,"end":9473.133,"text":"如果有黨團認為說這是所謂的違憲或者是什麼樣我們作為一個憲政民主國家是不是違憲恐怕也不是誰說了就算嘛那你就依照我們現在憲政民主的機制該怎麼處理就怎麼處理嘛立法院做了決議了以後那如果總統他認為違反憲法至愛難行那總統有總統自己的憲政手段可以去做處理嘛"},{"start":9474.134,"end":9500.793,"text":"所以回到現在所癥結的是我們所提出來的提案希望邀請賴清德總統到立法院就國家大政方針進行國情報告那我們就依照立法院職權行使法目前第15條之4需要協商的事項我們好好的來進行協商那協商的部分有共識的"},{"start":9501.934,"end":9516.322,"text":"就有共識。沒有共識也沒有辦法因為坐在這邊就不可能強求有共識嘛但我們最起碼是盡心盡力坐在這邊把該協商把該討論的事情好好討論出來"},{"start":9517.763,"end":9542.737,"text":"不要再做一些超越範圍太久以前要從回顧台灣的民主發展史每一個人在這個民主發展史裡面所曾經做過的事情談到自己的臉書發言談到草野協商的時候到底誰可以來誰不可以來我覺得啦我們現在在進行的草野協商每一個人的發言真的"},{"start":9544.606,"end":9555.157,"text":"關心的公民大家都會看。」那所以我也是很懇切的跟院長表達我們的看法就有關於十五條之事"},{"start":9556.514,"end":9584.761,"text":"發言的時間、人數、順序、政黨比例等事項,我們就按照公平的原則來予以處理,台灣民眾黨不會強求。」那如果說我們現在針對立法院職權行使法15條知識所在進行的協商,有人說是知為莫解的事情,根本不需要討論,那也不需要協商,那我們就在這邊一直坐著,全部都在繞圈子嘛。"},{"start":9585.621,"end":9610.943,"text":"科建民繼續坐在對面主張指責中國國民黨跟台灣民眾黨所提出來的東西是違憲那我就坐在這邊負責任的跟你講我認為沒有違憲嘛那接下來的關鍵點是什麼接下來的關鍵點就變成是是不是違憲恐怕不是你科建民說了算也不是我黃國昌說了算我們的憲政民主體制要怎麼處理就怎麼處理"},{"start":9613.874,"end":9633.139,"text":"以上是我們的看法,謝謝。好,謝謝黃國昌總召的發言。接下來請莊瑞雄幹事長發言,傅坤吉總召請主持。謝謝院長。我想我們按照我們的立法委員職權行使法的規定就是說,我們立法院本來就得聽取總統的一個報告。"},{"start":9636.541,"end":9650.437,"text":"我們可以聽取總統到立法院這樣的報告．代表說發動權還是在於我們立法院．也不是總統想來．他就可以自己說我要到立法院來．"},{"start":9651.684,"end":9666.401,"text":"那第二個就是說總統就他的質詢相關的國家大政的方針得知請立法院同意以後來他想來也要經過立法院的一個同意所以很顯然的也就不要去扯什麼新民意舊民意兩個都有民意"},{"start":9668.343,"end":9691.094,"text":"只是兩個人的民意基礎不一樣總統的民意也不會輸給立法委員總統是這樣子幾個政黨幾個人選出來的立法委員當然民意也很深厚但問題就是說確實按照憲法的一個規定總統確實不是立法委員監督的一個對象立法委員對總統對憲政機關愛怎麼罵當然怎麼罵都可以但是重點來了重點就是說"},{"start":9696.457,"end":9708.31,"text":"那我們今天我看民眾黨跟國民黨對於總統到立法院來做報告這件事啊民眾黨的態度就變開放了那是不是院長就是說第一個"},{"start":9710.858,"end":9736.724,"text":"憲法的規定還有我們禮拜五那天大家的講法是說總統要到立法院來三黨都表達歡迎第一個嘛就是要來這件事情就沒話講了嘛那只是說來了以後啦就變成說是這個人數到底是一個政黨是幾個順序民眾黨他也沒有意見了嘛這他也都沒有意見啦時間人家他也沒意見啦"},{"start":9738.597,"end":9741.192,"text":"就看看國民黨我看我就不曉得國民黨你再提出來我就聽不懂了"},{"start":9744.589,"end":9771.471,"text":"所以大家可以聚焦嘛行政院長是不管你立法院同不同意行政院都必須要來的嘛這本來就必須要來的嘛所以他這個絕對不會是什麼總統到立法院來報告的一個任何的一個條件嘛所以我們把他分開啦行政院長不管如果你總一定要來只是說時間我們立法院怎麼樣來做大家朝野協商來做一個決定這樣子而已嘛那所以呢以這把這樣子"},{"start":9772.301,"end":9773.422,"text":"邀請賴清德總統至立法院進行國情報告。"},{"start":9801.842,"end":9822.501,"text":"謝謝院長這本席第一次發言了從提案說明以後啊院長開放給大家針對這個賴總統在大選前表達希望如果有機會他當選後能夠到我會來做國情報告"},{"start":9827.06,"end":9854.864,"text":"依照我們的自決行事法．也依照憲法徵求條文的這個第四條第三項我想我們自決行事法已經寫得很清楚那院長剛剛也不斷在聚焦就是到底我們發言有多少時間多少人數我們的順序是怎麼樣那政黨比例是如何"},{"start":9856.192,"end":9880.202,"text":"我想剛剛韓院長針對這個問題已經請教各政黨請教了算起來我們從兩點講到現在兩個小時我想我們再回到重點全國國人對肥皂局已經大家都沒有興趣了現在應該是要把我們接受人民的託付而且賴總統當選人"},{"start":9882.819,"end":9903.188,"text":"在賴候選人的時候．就表示他有機會當選．要到立法院來做國情報告。」我想國民黨團．立場非常清楚。我們會友善．大格局．然後也歡迎賴總統到立法院來做國情報告。"},{"start":9904.611,"end":9927.244,"text":"人數的方面我要特別向民眾黨的這個黨團山長來表示敬意他們也表示說對於啊這個人數的部分啊依照政黨比例他們也沒有意見所以我想今天不管是國民黨也好民眾黨也好都已經再三再三表示高度的善意"},{"start":9928.909,"end":9956.734,"text":"我們不曉得為什麼這兩個小時還在雲地打轉所以也要拜託院長我們可能在草擬協商上我們要特別能夠盡快的因為全國國人都在網路上在看我們光一個人數然後什麼時間討論兩個小時我想真的韓院長你真的很有耐心我們深表敬佩"},{"start":9958.014,"end":9986.687,"text":"不過我們格局可能沒有這麼大在這裡做到實在是從提案說明完到現在第一個階段還沒有進行所以到底我們的人數、時間因為過去在院會質詢的時候我們不要說對院長的質詢是30分鐘那如果說如果說就專題專案的部分專案的部分專案報告的部分"},{"start":9987.83,"end":9988.795,"text":"大概一個委員室15分鐘"},{"start":9991.346,"end":10018.532,"text":"那過去有七七一還是要九九二七七一還是九九二我這邊因為我們上個禮拜五草以喜在院長室的我們的善意協商就講得很清楚大家希望說這個民進黨團主要幹部能先請教一下賴總統到底他希望什麼樣的方式來進行"},{"start":10021.092,"end":10024.033,"text":"邀請國民黨黨團提議．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．於新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":10045.626,"end":10045.786,"text":"主席。﹗"},{"start":10061.249,"end":10066.091,"text":"我還是要在這裡講一下我們不要再把過去的事情再持續地打轉"},{"start":10088.325,"end":10115.02,"text":"因為我想這個過去民進黨團在2012年的4月9號已經講得很清楚了強烈要求即問即答那如果今天民進黨執政以後認為即問即答是在野的時候的一個意思表達執政以後就不同意這樣的表達同樣的民進黨有做不同樣的位置的時候就不同樣的看法"},{"start":10116.004,"end":10134.622,"text":"當然我們也尊重啦但是總要表達一下到底民進黨現在的立場是什麼看法是什麼賴總統當選人他本身的意願又是如何因為上個禮拜我們做三一溝通的時候就在上面請這個民進黨黨團幹部"},{"start":10139.176,"end":10163.562,"text":"問一下賴總統的看法是什麼．我們才能夠就他的看法．來做實質的討論跟協商。但是到今天為止．完全沒有聽到這個問題。亦或是也可以先不要講賴總統想什麼．把賴總統想什麼變成你們黨團的立場．現在直接講出來也可以。但是如果．我們實在是都沒有進度的話．不曉得說．"},{"start":10165.126,"end":10185.986,"text":"這樣的協商到底有什麼樣的實質意義?全國的國人都在看大家要不要寫歷史今天寫完歷史以後像今天我們黨團有在講這個事情到底寫了歷史以後賴總統是以總統的高度"},{"start":10189.886,"end":10207.557,"text":"我們這裡每一位都是一百一至三分之一的人我們是見證的人我們只是見證而已當然院長高度是不一樣但是其他的立委都是一百一至三分之一今天已經這麼大一個事情要讓賴總統能夠寫下歷史見證歷史"},{"start":10214.417,"end":10241.593,"text":"我現在蠻懷疑的到底民進黨團今天是要讓賴總統來還是不希望賴總統來我到現在還聽不懂啊還是聽不懂啊到底是來搭台的還是來砸場的我到現在沒有聽懂所以啊今天到底是很奇怪我們花了這麼多時間只要兩個多小時到底要講什麼所以我這裡真的是要請院長明示吼好不好謝謝"},{"start":10243.634,"end":10271.165,"text":"呃,柯總統稍微等一下好不好,讓我嘗試性的,麻煩你稍微等一下好嗎?因為你再讓我嘗試性具體的提出來,綜合各三個黨團的看法,大家聽聽看,這個能不能接受。那麼,我們現在開始對於總統如果到院,國情報告,我們暫定每一個委員五分鐘時間。大家有意見回頭可以討論沒問題。第二,"},{"start":10271.923,"end":10294.577,"text":"我們政黨比例代表,九九二。第三,我們依序,臺灣民眾黨、民主進步黨、國民黨,這個都可以調整,完全沒有問題。只是,我們總是把這幾個問題清清楚楚把它講出來,拋磚引玉。"},{"start":10296.633,"end":10325.198,"text":"那如果各位委員、各位黨團幹部．對我所提出來的有意見．請針對我剛剛所提的這四項．直接做出說明．其他拜託大家就不要再提了．謝謝。請柯建民總召。院長。我不知道我今天講的所核心問題．你有沒有在思考。剛才副總長講的．假裝笑得很可愛。"},{"start":10326.601,"end":10345.07,"text":"那講了半天,我不知道他們到底知道自己在講什麼。包括黃昌委員也是一樣。我們今天講總統來做國情報告,那是一個,你講九九二,五分鐘,那都是小事,那小事。但是他要來的時候,這個都是小事。"},{"start":10347.035,"end":10359.069,"text":"從九九二五分鐘,那時候小事。重點他來是要急問急答還是要要要要依照憲法到最後他得同意回答當然這是一個問題重點在這個地方"},{"start":10362.012,"end":10385.903,"text":"怎麼一直大家迴避問題．然後一直說我們是來找雜猜猜猜的．我們來回應就是說．你回去交給開聯署就好．這是一個憲政問題的台灣核心元素．那黃昌偉現在趕快跑掉．我不想是缺席的審判他．但是呢我只能留下一個紀錄．我要對各位所言的做一些看法．這是很簡單的問題．"},{"start":10387.384,"end":10412.719,"text":"高屋素雅委員以及專利雄委員都講的就是憲法程式的問題。我們現在是在講憲法,不是說總統來,什麼人來,一黨多少人。來的時候他是要怎麼樣進行他的國情報告,這個才重要。我們可以做違憲性的解釋嗎?黃國昌委員既然講說憲法合憲違憲是我的看法,"},{"start":10413.539,"end":10436.656,"text":"他認為沒有,沒有。這個我認為,這個非常嚴重。怎麼這麼簡單?我們幾個講很簡單的陳述。既然故意略過,故意不聽。是不是他是因為讀英美法系的關係,我不清楚。還是他到底是依照正在對立場上。"},{"start":10439.978,"end":10458.319,"text":"尤其剛才傅文綺委員以及黃國昌委員所談的過去我主張總統來做國情報告2012年10月大家知道嗎我一開始就講過我們曾經要求要求幾問幾答"},{"start":10459.6,"end":10475.146,"text":"但是都知道這個沒有辦法進行。我不是只有2015那一次。皇上故意把他嫁接起來說我2012就知道2015的事情。2012、4月份那時候不是只有我們民運黨黨團"},{"start":10478.309,"end":10500.609,"text":"臺灣黨黨團．還有親黨黨團李同豪共同開記者會針對什麼．針對油電商長．針對收入金．針對禽流感．以及油價上漲的問題．還有這個新日健保繳費不公平另外有一個比較爭議性的就是一國兩區是憲政解釋"},{"start":10503.051,"end":10516.662,"text":"這個是當初的在野黨聯合開計的會三個黨聯合開計的會當然這個是當時針對那時候的情況大家做政治攻防我承認這本來就是這一回事情在野黨挑戰執政黨執政黨挑...在野黨挑戰執政黨"},{"start":10522.106,"end":10544.725,"text":"這是天經地義即便我們今天實際上被挑戰也是天經地義所以不要隱逸失意所以我2015的我剛才講20152015是因為我有講過所以那時候卡在什麼東西卡在核先性的問題這大家心裡很清楚等一下我並不是要到簽字"},{"start":10545.345,"end":10545.665,"text":"公決案。．邀請公決案。"},{"start":10557.929,"end":10574.104,"text":"這個大格局,這個是違憲的嘛。彭麥凱你也這樣主張,胡文杰也這樣主張,賴斯堡也這樣主張,這個是徹底違憲的部分。這是什麼大格局?話講得飄揚,但是理論根本沒有辦法進行啊。所以我今天要大家面對問題來回答問題。"},{"start":10577.569,"end":10592.311,"text":"憲法已經修過了,把後門那一段,也就是說1997年把後門那一段可以檢討國事提供建議那一段刪掉了。2005年我們也把它刪掉了。"},{"start":10593.092,"end":10619.826,"text":"所以就沒有所謂的回答的問題所以希望大家看看現場很簡單所以院長我知道你已經跟我協調我也不好意思啦我是講問題啦你手機問題你剛才講的那個都小事那沒有問題那992那個時候五分鐘那這個都小事重點一分多來怎麼樣來進行這個國情報告是要怎麼回答"},{"start":10620.606,"end":10645.629,"text":"不是統一統大,那個當然違憲,違憲不能講半天你整個法醫公會被叫來,那根本沒好那個事情嘛。所以,上次就講說請問賴總統,大家是禮貌性這樣講,我心裡知道這個答案就是要在核心性底下嘛。所以,我想你旁邊那個周恩來啊,秘書長應該很強,可以稍微回答我想聽你的告見好不好?"},{"start":10647.779,"end":10656.945,"text":"謝謝你喔那關於這個五分鐘每個委員您有沒有意見?你是完全同意嗎?第二個就是政黨比例992"},{"start":10659.017,"end":10672.566,"text":"這不是小事喔這一定要三個黨團都同意喔我們已經花了一百五十分鐘討論這個幾個小結論這個幾個結論你怎麼會是小事勒院長我講樸信息的問題來問執行局長還統一統黨那個才是大事問題等一下會討論嘛我們先把大家能達成共識我先提出來嘛再來依序民眾黨、民進黨、國民黨、政黨的次序"},{"start":10689.554,"end":10715.895,"text":"有沒有意見．請就這幾個。吳思耀委員,你要再,幹事長你再發言,麻煩就直接針對這個好不好,謝謝。我真的覺得前提性的問題沒有釐清的話,直接跳入誰幾分鐘幾分鐘,那真的是技術性的問題啦。容我,容我,容我要說"},{"start":10717.56,"end":10728.356,"text":"因為剛剛有委員提到2012跟2015的時間點這個是直播不是開玩笑的這是直播不是開玩笑的我就針對2012年總統府"},{"start":10733.719,"end":10755.809,"text":"馬英九總統．針對要不要來立法院．接受國情報告．跟綜合問答的這個事情．府方的正式說法．容我把2012年4月26號．總統府的發言人范江泰基的說法．我必須在這裡還原．因為剛剛有委員提到．不容抹搖歷史"},{"start":10758.048,"end":10778.977,"text":"總統府范江泰基發言人．代表馬英九前總統．他說,國情報告的相關程序．應由立法院在符合憲法規定的意旨上．依法來協商解決。但是．根據憲法的規定與精神．總統至立法院發表國情報告．不論是一問一答．"},{"start":10779.677,"end":10790.784,"text":"或是綜合問答．等等的備詢形式．都會嚴重混淆．總統與行政院長之間的角色分際．與權責分工。一旦馬英九總統．"},{"start":10794.986,"end":10812.203,"text":"接受立法委員的質詢．就形同總統對立法院負責．將違背憲政上明定由立法院長．對行政院負責並備詢之精神。」所以范江泰基代表馬英九前總統說若"},{"start":10814.045,"end":10825.177,"text":"在野黨堅持要求一問一答或綜合問答都是創下憲政惡例破壞憲法規定這是2012年的4月26號剛剛有講到第二個時間點2015年的11月又再次討論到"},{"start":10833.986,"end":10852.565,"text":"馬前總統要不要到立法院國情報告。」這個時候我們來看看當時的立法院院長王金平怎麼說的。王金平前院長說:「如果立委要上台一問一答,將破壞憲政,破壞中華民國憲法增修條文的規定。"},{"start":10853.286,"end":10866.629,"text":"因為立法院監督的對象是行政院,不是總統。」王金平院長說:「總統不是受國會監督的對象,如果質詢就違憲。」我為什麼要講這個?因為剛剛有委員講到2012的時間,他又跳到2015的時間,完全去脈絡化"},{"start":10873.231,"end":10902.831,"text":"把他對於事實錯誤的理解要帶在柯總召民進黨的頭上這當然我要還原清楚我手上這些東西我都在司法法治委員會質詢的時候清楚提出來過所以呢我確實同意幾分鐘幾分鐘那是技術層次的問題但是到底可不可以接受一問一答或是綜合回答用馬英九當年2012的標準他是認為綜合回答也都逾越了"},{"start":10904.813,"end":10923.132,"text":"總統不對立法院負責．是行政院對立法院負責．的憲政慣例。」這是當時的國民黨馬英九前總統所以回過頭來我認為這個事情必須釐清因為大家如何看待大家不要這麼便宜行事覺得說我們現在敲好7比7比1或是9比9比2一個5分鐘或是15分鐘"},{"start":10926.448,"end":10951.335,"text":"然後這個其實落入這個邏輯就等於在場的立法委員認同總統必須接受立法委員的詢答這就是違反了憲政的精神嘛所以先把這個前提講清楚那剛剛講9比9比2或7比7比1好那總統的回答是如何時間是什麼不要忘囉過去的馬英九前總統的"},{"start":10953.735,"end":10978.695,"text":"那個說法是．即使是綜合問答．他都認為這是逾越了憲政的分歧．所以重點在回答．的部分怎麼來安排。謝謝。呃,容我提醒一下吳世堯幹事長。你們民進黨三長坐在這裡．就今天總統國情報告的事項．莊瑞雄幹事長講得最大氣。最大氣。為什麼?他幾乎完全認同"},{"start":10982.409,"end":11008.003,"text":"請總統來．讓總統創造歷史。」另外一個我必須要講你說一問一答四個字剛才國民黨民眾黨根本沒有提一問一答也不認同為尋答你現在再把這個問題勾起來我們就很難進行了因為他們已經講沒有民眾黨剛才還國民黨都已經講得很清楚他們尊重總統最終採取的什麼形式但是我們先把這三個問題理清時間"},{"start":11009.304,"end":11027.444,"text":"政黨分配、政黨次序。接下來我們就要討論同問同答一問一答還是政黨問完以後由賴清德總統來答覆政黨之間一個part一個part的答覆我們還沒討論到那裡你現在不要再把他勾搶你勾搶把問題搞複雜了嘛"},{"start":11029.534,"end":11047.025,"text":"好不好,不是我要,剛剛莊瑞雄、幹事長講得非常的好嘛,很大氣啊,完全是吻合我們現在國民黨、民眾黨跟你們民進黨完全高度共識嘛,好不好,不要再...院長,院長,偶爾意見,我抗議。講了半天,講頭問頭答,他講三個問完,三個回答,你怎麼可以這樣子?這當然是看得很清楚嘛,不能這樣子。"},{"start":11067.737,"end":11074.779,"text":"公決案。．國民黨黨團提議．新任行政院院長施政方針報告前．"},{"start":11110.305,"end":11111.686,"text":"因為他這個當時的這個基準很困惑"},{"start":11115.893,"end":11120.22,"text":"因為這個國情報告．限制法國內公費所管理層．進來這裏才算是涉及．"},{"start":12084.389,"end":12094.676,"text":"各位黨團幹部我們現在繼續開會我們現在剛才還有哪一位要發言請柯建民總召請"},{"start":12096.704,"end":12115.516,"text":"針對我們剛才講了兩個半鐘頭所謂執行九個、九個、兩個、一個分鐘我是講的幾乎端末就是我一分鐘就答應你現在也答應你從頭到尾都答應你這個但是前提要核現新的問題我們講半鐘講憲法的問題嘛還有你"},{"start":12118.678,"end":12146.346,"text":"你不要去誤解我們的意思,我這講得太清楚,我一直跟你講說那最至端末節,一分鐘就結束,我現在就可以答應你,我們在這裡都是一樣,這個小事啊,那是重點是來所謂的,副委員講的,要三,紅飯台剛才講的嘛,三個問完三個回答,然後那才不會過話語漏飯,然後運動打嘻嘛,"},{"start":12147.566,"end":12168.994,"text":"這個是問題,這才是問題的所在嘛,這憲法是可以這樣搞嗎?黃國昌講的統問統答,一黨完畢回答,一黨完畢回答,一黨完畢回答,這變相的疑問疑答。這個東西很清楚,為什麼可以,大家繞了半天,我一直說我們要針對核限性,不是核限性的問題來回答。總統是,請任院長是對立法院負責的。"},{"start":12174.281,"end":12196.697,"text":"院長你也知道是 啊過去當然大家有不同的在野黨去挑戰執政黨但是馬英九也同樣回答這個問題我們都很清楚你把過去的事情加這塊不一樣的事情上面 二你因為我講的是那時候是三個在野黨聯合開記者會還有台聯還有親民黨然後針對社會經典有群流感 有練雙長還有一國兩棲 很多問題這個一直在挑戰國"},{"start":12201.544,"end":12202.708,"text":"馬英九確實回答說這個是違憲的然後2055再一次嘛"},{"start":12208.028,"end":12236.8,"text":"馬錫惠啊馬錫惠等下回來要讓立法院報告要讓立法院背書當然是不可能同意啊所以當然出個題目給他啊所以黃國昌委員一命不斷辦兩個事情不一樣的事情全部攪在一起然後說我會預測2015的事情這就是大家說話都沒老實啊對吧把事實真相講清楚我從頭到尾就講說我過去也主張過但是這個都不可行嘛大家知道那是朝野共犯的工具而已今天我們"},{"start":12237.6,"end":12265.186,"text":"要面對這個問題我再講一次九九二五分鐘那種毫無問題重點是這前提是什麼來以後要怎麼回答來以後在核心心上要怎麼處理那才是重點嘛講了半天都是在講憲法啊怎麼又說我在講歷史然後九七修憲難道這些東西不重要嗎我們在憲法底下做事情啊"},{"start":12266.513,"end":12271.115,"text":"想要過來國情報告有一百個方法不想來國情報告有一百個藉口我想大家都在看三個小時的一個協商但是到現在還是在講這種"},{"start":12296.775,"end":12297.676,"text":"公決案。」相關事宜。"},{"start":12314.141,"end":12329.114,"text":"今天的協商．即便連現在的協商．都是合乎憲法。憲法有規定是．可以邀請總統來國情報告．而針對立院職權行使法．就是得就"},{"start":12331.044,"end":12357.52,"text":"相關的報告不明瞭之處提出問題．發言時間、人數、順序、政黨比例等事項．由黨團協商決定。」換言之現在此時此刻我們在做的協商就是合法的所以不要再拿不合憲、違憲來當藉口我說實在的話如果說剛剛其實我們黃國昌總召也有講嘛我也同意啊"},{"start":12358.533,"end":12385.835,"text":"任何人也都不是大法官在這個會場裡面不順你的意就說別人違憲扣這種大帽子過去已經屢屢上演大家也都看到了我覺得這種話真的不用講如果說我們未來在這個協商會場裡面有黨團代表就是要動不動就扣別人違憲的話那就沒有什麼好談的那我甚至又覺得說你感覺講違憲就是要終止這一回合那我們大家就表決吧"},{"start":12387.011,"end":12404.983,"text":"最後我必須要說實在話我們現在在講其實他就是創下一個憲政慣例憲政首例為什麼賴清德總統當選人如果說願意來的話2024年他會是一個中華民國史上很有意義的一年因為我們現在就是創下一個例"},{"start":12406.429,"end":12433.555,"text":"這個例創下之後未來歷屆總統都會依這個例來去做相關的進行有一天國民黨會執政國民黨的總統也一樣要依照今年中華民國113年我們確定的一個例來去做所以現在只是看這時候賴清德總統當選人願不願意當第一個歷史留名的時候我不知道到底這是賴清德總統不願意面對還是今天民進黨的代表不願意讓賴清德總統面對"},{"start":12437.645,"end":12461.887,"text":"所以我最後只是結論想搭台的人找方法想拆台的人找藉口我們確實很希望能夠在113年的時候創下一個憲政首例國民黨身為在野黨但我們負起責任的希望能夠讓這件事情歷史留名而且我們更重要的是我們也希望"},{"start":12462.827,"end":12484.057,"text":"總統在還沒有修憲我們國家到底是雙手掌制總統還是內閣制的時候現在還是雙手掌制但是總統相對權力比較大的時候總統能夠真正謙卑的來到立法院聽取立法委員給他的一些建議並且好好的在立法院回答全國國人我想這才是真真正正有意義的事情謝謝接下來請黃國昌總召發言"},{"start":12490.4,"end":12514.131,"text":"針對剛剛院長所提的就是中國國民黨代表九位民主進步黨代表九位台灣民眾黨代表兩位這樣子的一個比例分配我們沒有意見敬表尊重只不過說在整個發言的時間上面就提一個建議看能不能夠斟酌在餘裕稍微延長一點因為"},{"start":12515.051,"end":12532.425,"text":"我剛剛大概算了一下如果是二十位立法委員發言每一個人五分鐘的話時間大概是一百分鐘嘛那一百分鐘大概又一個小時四十分嘛那當然就是如果我們現在的計畫是大概僅用半天的時間"},{"start":12533.911,"end":12554.877,"text":"或一天的時間來處理的話．當然我沒有預設．但基於對總統的尊重．多給總統一些發言的時間．我覺得是必要．而且是合理的．那再安排．接下來綜合答覆的一個時間．或者是你要把它稱為．"},{"start":12556.677,"end":12580.897,"text":"補充報告也沒有關係啦不管是綜合答覆還是綜合補充報告都沒有關係在預留那些時間如果我們以一天的時間來畫整個國情報告的時間如果是歷史上面的第一次我覺得立法院花一天的時間來做這個絕對是全體國人可以大家可以期待也樂於看到的事情"},{"start":12581.978,"end":12605.746,"text":"因此在這樣的情況之下我會認為說是不是委員發言的時間可以卓度的來予以延長比如說每位委員發言的時間如果到七分鐘的話我們算二十位大概就是一百四十分鐘一百四十分鐘大概就兩個小時又多一點那我們再加上總統一開始進行報告的時間"},{"start":12607.146,"end":12628.213,"text":"以及接下來不管因為怎麼樣的答覆的形式這件事情我們到目前為止還沒有協商到那個階段即使是說用一些比較不管是剛剛中國國民黨所提出來的不管是三位還是五位或者是我們曾經建議過的一個黨團"},{"start":12630.274,"end":12656.772,"text":"講完了以後再來換另外一個黨團算一算我覺得一整天的時間這樣下來應該都是足夠的那針對這樣子的建議以上提出來謝謝黃總召我嘗試性宣告一下你們能接受我想後面的發言可能跟我想法是一致的話就不用再繼續發言了我先很具體的念一下"},{"start":12657.95,"end":12685.617,"text":"各黨團針對國情報告的協商意見．初步意見．未來總統至本院進行國情報告時．於總統國情報告後．由本院各黨團推派代表發言．每位委員發言時間為五分鐘．這個點黃國昌總召希望延長一點點．到七分鐘．請問民進黨團有沒有意見?這個時間我知道五分鐘那請問國民黨團有沒有意見?"},{"start":12687.677,"end":12715.666,"text":"五分鐘到黃國昌總統如果七分鐘的話是比較符合我們立法院所有委員在過去所提出問題的時候在討論的時候不管是在委員會也好在院會也好一般來講一般來講起碼都七八分鐘以上七八分鐘以上沒關係因為你這些發言都沒有影響到賴清德總統的後續的一個"},{"start":12717.465,"end":12734.134,"text":"總的一個說明所以我覺得這個應該跟賴總統之間他不會有任何其他額外的包袱跟壓抑都不會有因為這是委員之間的事所以我想我們就修正一下七分好沒關係我再繼續念那大家的見證發言人數勒國民黨九人民進黨九人台灣民眾黨兩人進行發言的順序一台灣民眾黨"},{"start":12743.598,"end":12769.587,"text":"民進黨．國民黨．一、順序進行．二、至於尋答的方式．我們繼續溝通．國情報告．仍然列入本周四的協商主題克總召這一點你完全沒有違憲問題．請放心第三．另外本周四也要進行．新任的行政院院長施政方針報告．以及本院配合研會相關事情的協商．"},{"start":12770.919,"end":12790.213,"text":"第四點那法案的部分一樣列入本週四下午再協商請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎請簡短二要五分鐘跟七分鐘就只有這一個點有問題再來第二次協商沒有關係這個有共識時間長短還好"},{"start":12794.659,"end":12816.601,"text":"那五分鐘七分鐘我們禮拜四的時候再來共同討論一下好不好還是我就直接現在折衷六分鐘政治是妥協的藝術好不好直接折衷六分鐘這個事情時間就不要再發言請副總統長話短說請我每次都是短話短說"},{"start":12819.489,"end":12847.444,"text":"只有柯總召是短話長說我是講道理我想要特別再強調一次我想我們今天協商不是論金計量我覺得這是一個很神聖的事情但是我想今天柯總召把整個場已經攪成這個樣子了我覺得我們把"},{"start":12850.899,"end":12875.296,"text":"給賴總統一個歷史的定位啊已經被攪成這個樣子我覺得蠻可惜的這一個事情對賴清德總統當選人在歷史上一個非常清楚的定位但是不是像菜市場裡面論金論糧還一個更重要的事情"},{"start":12878.413,"end":12899.515,"text":"如果民進黨要設這麼多但書我比較好奇我只問一個到底是賴總統本人的想法跟決定還是柯總召自己的想法跟決定這個要必須要跟大家講清楚"},{"start":12901.67,"end":12912.812,"text":"因為是他個人的想法還是賴總統的想法賴總統的想法我們盡量敬與尊重所以今天在這裡花了三個小時"},{"start":12914.458,"end":12933.915,"text":"講到現在我們還是不懂因為上個禮拜五已經講得很清楚請柯總召回去詢問賴總統的意願是如何我們都表達高度善意請告訴我們他到底想法怎麼樣我們盡可能"},{"start":12937.399,"end":12962.521,"text":"來配合。」講得非常善意也非常大氣我們講得很清楚但今天三個小時一直在繞憲政問題這個憲法徵修條文第四條第三項講得很清楚再過來立法院職權刑事法97年就修了也不是說今年國民黨來修的也不是15條就寫得很清楚"},{"start":12964.76,"end":12987.392,"text":"為什麼今天在這個問題不斷地用所謂的違憲違憲違憲我要再強調一次這個東西在立法院是很糟糕的事不能變成一個口頭禪立法委員依法質詢職務不是哪一個人可以在這裡糾正所有人說有沒有違憲"},{"start":12989.875,"end":13014.122,"text":"有沒有違憲是大法官做的決議．而且還不是一個大法官能做決議．還要憲法法庭來做決議．但是現在已經變成立法院的．濫用的最低名的代名詞．連這麼莊嚴的議題．都空轉了三個小時．這個是我們不能接受的．為什麼一個這麼嚴肅的問題．"},{"start":13017.649,"end":13046.589,"text":"誰能夠代表憲法在這裡講話這裡沒有一個人有資格所以呢我們在這裡啊要再一次啊強調到底是誰的意思因為上個禮拜我講得很清楚如果今天是民進黨黨團的意思還是賴總統的意思讓我們了解清楚至少我們在對內我們黨團成員也要問為什麼是這樣我要講清楚"},{"start":13048.902,"end":13077.724,"text":"阿賴總統的意思是這樣大家覺得OK還是說是致命為大法官常住在這裏天天都發奧斯汀的人講的我要搞清楚因為大家老是這個事情上禮拜五大家很善意的都已經表達嘛但到今天為止轉了三個小時這個事情都沒有明確化所以抱歉因為當時也在院長是大家談的所以到現在為止都還沒有清楚"},{"start":13080.001,"end":13098.201,"text":"所以這個問題真的有必要讓大家搞清楚如果堅持是賴總統他的想法我們會用最大的格局跟看法來做整體的協商但這要講清楚好不好謝謝來我講一下"},{"start":13099.887,"end":13118.428,"text":"張瑞雄委員先舉著。麻煩請張委員,請發。我再講一次啦,其實民進黨我們三長的想法其實是一致啦,那個副總召其實也沒有必要那麼多情緒上的發言啦。總統要到立法院,兩個方式。第一個,"},{"start":13119.761,"end":13136.122,"text":"我們四分之一的委員．我們大家來提案．然後院會做決議以後．可以邀請總統到立法院．第二個這個是立法院想要他來．第二個是總統想來．他也可以知請立法院同意．就這兩個方式"},{"start":13136.883,"end":13162.733,"text":"好了那這現在變成是總統也想來立法院也想要他來那就就好事了嘛不管是哪一種這都很好安排了嘛那很好安排了以後呢那就本來就進行到最後就是說我們總統就是當然賴總統假設到了立法院以後就他先講話嘛他做國情報告嘛他報告完了以後各黨團"},{"start":13163.713,"end":13167.7,"text":"就請就像剛剛院長你講的就是說國民黨幾個民進黨幾個民眾黨幾個大家派比例來"},{"start":13174.295,"end":13191.466,"text":"就有不明瞭嘛不明瞭之處嘛我就算很明瞭我也可以講說你這個國政大方針很好啊該往哪個方向去啊立法委員愛怎麼講這個其實也沒辦法去限制的啦管你明不明瞭就很明瞭我也想繼續問嘛那你依託太多像我講的那天看到你啊那個東西好不好吃啊總統會覺得你也在無聊你給我問這個"},{"start":13202.875,"end":13216.822,"text":"他想不想回答就在於他了明不明瞭就在於他了那所以我倒覺得剛剛院長你那個才是如果大家沒有意見的話這部分大家就先有共識了那其他的方式如何那再來談了嘛好不好對 莊委現在接 呃 呃 等一下 等一下我回答很清楚"},{"start":13226.564,"end":13242.22,"text":"副總召安德開金口那每次開金口他坐在我前面齁我都仔細聽了我都不知道他在講什麼他說整個我們說很多淡書我們怎麼毫無淡書啊只是在核信心底下對不對要遵守信法"},{"start":13242.58,"end":13263.911,"text":"你也要講到相關你講到相關政法條例第四條是德啊你去看有沒有執行刑法是寫的是執行刑法嘛所以論金論養讓我們在論金論養是誰在論金論養院長才是委員總統人家要請人家講這就是論金論養嘛這好事情就大家一定要這樣搞啊所以我們要講清楚"},{"start":13265.772,"end":13277.743,"text":"因為賴總統的意思．其實我能坦白告訴大家．他早就在媒體講得很清楚．只要合憲合法他一定來．這再清楚不過吧．所以那天說你們會不會賴總統．我知道"},{"start":13280.646,"end":13297.232,"text":"答案是什麼?但是,既然黃國昌委員提出,你也提出,當然第一次大家協商表示很尊重大家看法,一定是好,我去瞭解看看,因為我知道這個要巧合協商啊。因為說你補助說得清楚了,還有什麼討價餘地嗎?"},{"start":13300.553,"end":13317.122,"text":"各位他選舉中間 他說有講過嘛一乾不公我要來極文極大 沒有這回事情嘛是合憲合法嘛所以這一點請大家那既然 既然副總統講到 講說只要賴總統講清楚 我們就競表同意好 那就"},{"start":13318.263,"end":13333.771,"text":"講到合憲合法．就沒有提問提答．沒有什麼統不統答．你們要不要投意．結果答案就出來了嘛．那大家說我要怎麼做．對齁．那至於時間那個．這種代表我一直講說那最簡單的事情．那幾分鐘改觀那沒什麼合正變嘛．我們一講了半天．三個鐘頭了．都會講憲法層次的問題．大家迴避問題．"},{"start":13340.338,"end":13363.125,"text":"現在我們林思明委員請發言好 謝謝主席我想柯總召你現在認為核線沒有問題我想我現在特別強調因為剛才莊瑞雄委員那核線你還可以來嗎你只要背詞的幾個字統統都在違憲嘛我非常贊同莊瑞雄委員剛才講的那我現在再提醒一點就是說因為我們現在是992"},{"start":13364.645,"end":13384.533,"text":"九九二但是九九二二十個人嘛那我們現在希望就是說那九個人九個人發言完畢這樣子可能時間很冗長所以我建議請院長也來做才是就是說每五個人或四個人發言完畢那那個來問提問之後那我們的總統就來做一次回答"},{"start":13385.313,"end":13410.789,"text":"不用說全部二十個人講完他來做回答所以我想這部分請就是說我們我先提出來了提出來了我們心情是可以再做這個協商那另外就是說總統他要怎麼回答我跟你講這件事我應該講得也非常清楚就是說這個就是立法委員這個執行新司法講的嘛就是我們對不明瞭之處我們就來提問嘛那總統至於他要回答的內容"},{"start":13411.73,"end":13428.995,"text":"總統他自己會去做一個選擇．所以這個都職權行事法規定的很清楚了．我不曉得你們還在擔心什麼呢．所以我想就依照職權行事法來做了．OK 好 謝謝你現在就可以退下一個職勤了讓主席來決定好不好接下來請黃國昌總召請發言吳世耀委員請準備"},{"start":13442.904,"end":13465.266,"text":"針對我們上個星期五在院長的召集之下黨團彼此之間交換的意見我想現場院長也聽到說我那時候其實有提議AB兩個可能的方案一個是一個立委發表完他要看法了以後總統就可以回應"},{"start":13466.656,"end":13481.657,"text":"彼岸是一個黨團．發表他的看法了以後．總統就給回應那一天民進黨的代表是怎麼說的我相信坐在這邊的人大家的記憶都歷歷在目"},{"start":13483.346,"end":13498.3,"text":"結果剛剛聽柯建民那樣的說法似乎是他上個禮拜五告訴大家說他要帶回去請問一下賴清德總統這件事情那顯然從頭到尾就是在講空話"},{"start":13500.081,"end":13524.003,"text":"從頭到尾就是在講恐話我們那天坐在那邊談得很具體A案跟B案他說他也不知道賴清德總統怎麼想他要帶回去再問一下結果今天坐在這邊又說只要合憲就願意來我們又把問題從試圖要具體化又拉回去抽象化了"},{"start":13525.504,"end":13547.84,"text":"我必須要再一次的說明基於對韓院長的尊重那一天您著急了在您的辦公室裡面不是進行正式的黨團協商是在進行意見交換那我們其實也去了那只不過說那樣子的意見交換就是說並不是說不好"},{"start":13548.781,"end":13572.872,"text":"但你沒有留下一些影音的記錄到時候出來大家就各說各話本來應該是很清楚的事情都可以搞成像羅生門一樣我覺得真的是會讓人覺得非常的遺憾那第二個部分目前我們在進行的協商顯然就不是依照憲法徵稅條文在進行協商"},{"start":13575.12,"end":13590.356,"text":"因為憲法徵修條文第四條第三項的規定在立法院現行的立法院職權行使法已經把它具體化了所以我們一直在進行的協商其實都是按照目前的立法院職權行使法15條之四那15條之四"},{"start":13593.439,"end":13618.339,"text":"我們依法論法以目前現行的規定上面有說就委員的發言總統同意可以綜合再做補充委員可以發言那總統他要不要同意綜合補充那個總統他自己可以做決定那依照我們現行的規定總統他不做綜合補充"},{"start":13620.974,"end":13643.448,"text":"我們也不能說總統違法我的意思是說立法院有立法院自己的主體性譬如說我們今天做了一個決定不管是三個委員五個委員還是一個黨團的委員發言完提出了問題以後我們把規矩設下來我們邀請總統"},{"start":13645.462,"end":13672.374,"text":"請他來回覆。」那總統說我不同意我不想回覆我想不管是本院任何一位委員乃至於院長恐怕都沒有辦法強迫總統嘛但問題是總統同意或不同意這件事情我們何必預先做決定呢?譬如說今天我們最後立法院按照民主的程序我們所設定的規則是希望說"},{"start":13673.755,"end":13698.787,"text":"三位立委講完了以後我們希望總統能夠綜合的來做補充報告總統說我不願意那不願意我們最後也只能尊重總統因為假設我們適用的是現在的立法院職選行事法那總統表示我不同意我相信院長的高度在主持議事你也一定尊重總統嘛你不會說"},{"start":13700.288,"end":13725.246,"text":"我不同意你不同意嘛因為他只要不同意他就沒有他就沒有需要針對回答那但是我覺得我們邀請總統來立法院有自己的主體性我們希望能夠落實整個人民對於立法院在這一次進行國情報告的期待在現行的法律架構下面我們本來就可以邀請總統來"},{"start":13726.767,"end":13737.718,"text":"也可以邀請他針對立法委員所提出來的問題他可以做補充報告。不管今天是三位、五位、一個黨團"},{"start":13739.68,"end":13765.99,"text":"還是到最後的同問同答。」這個是我們立法院自己可以決定的。我們決定了以後,總統同意或不同意,我們依照現行法,就是要尊重。那這個以上,是我個人對於目前立法院職權行使法在維持國會的尊嚴跟主體性,我自己所做出來的一個我自己的看法,也提供給院長。"},{"start":13767.23,"end":13768.112,"text":"做參考。以上。"},{"start":13780.309,"end":13808.74,"text":"今天花了三個多小時時間在這邊討論也許有在野黨委員覺得司堯的發言或總召的發言讓大家覺得聽得很煩、很膩但我覺得這個討論都是有意義的因為我們在創造第一次台灣的憲政的好的慣例所以我們都想要成就這個美式我們都想要把這個台搭得好、搭得穩所以沒有人要拆台"},{"start":13809.5,"end":13833.976,"text":"沒有人要毀掉這件事情,反而是欲速則不達。」我一直是非常正向在看待這樣的討論裡頭,讓我們對於憲政的精神也好,職權行使法的實踐也好,都有更進一步的共識。我認為到今天,到現在此時此刻,9比9比2,每位6分鐘,這是我們往前推進了一步,這個共識的凝聚也是一步一步這樣爭論而來的。"},{"start":13837.167,"end":13863.462,"text":"所以說我謝謝院長說我們今天定在這裡那我們週四可以繼續針對問的問題已經沒有問題了就是答的方式跟時間大家可以冷靜都再回去好好的思考看看我花了這麼多時間的論述就是回到憲法的本文跟直選行事法的文藝基本上總統來報告他接受的是大家的詢問"},{"start":13865.043,"end":13888.488,"text":"而不是質詢．提問而不是質詢．或者是詢問．因為質詢刑事法的文字是詢問．而不是質詢．我要一直論述的是這件事情．所以這會回到．我們如果下週四要去決定．是幾個完之後回答．或者是全部一起回答．請大家扣合著這個精神．總統來．他不是被詢．他不是質詢．"},{"start":13889.808,"end":13914.205,"text":"好嗎?好,請尊重我的發言好嗎?大家都乘著性子,我也不是沒有個性好嗎?但是我願意在這裡循著性子一再講一再講,讓大家能夠把這個東西融會貫通。心而上者未知道,情而下者未知氣。我們在處理的是道跟氣並用的問題,它需要花時間。"},{"start":13915.646,"end":13941.479,"text":"所以我認為這個討論我還是覺得非常正向我非常appreciate今天大家坐在這裡但是不要在這邊繼續沒有人猜台好嗎?黃委員我們都在成就這個好事把台搭好 把台搭穩那我們已經往前推進一步了那我們也都接受9比9比2的6分鐘答的部分我們大家好好思考 謝謝謝謝吳斯亞維接下來最後我們再請柯建民總召喊"},{"start":13942.452,"end":13971.428,"text":"我想 順著剛才吳世耀委員講的話我們前面有在拖延 前面有在搭檯讓賴總統能夠來 你有機會來立法院做國情報告這是一個新的里程碑 大家都知道但是呢 剛剛黃中講的話 包括各位講的話我一直在繞來繞去 故意在那裡很混淆你所謂你那邊提出來 好像說我好像沒有在現場你在現場眼睛看你講話"},{"start":13973.748,"end":13993.924,"text":"你說要與民一打．或是黨院黨打．,這不是執行嗎?這不是執行嗎?然後呢,你說那些沒有語言紀錄,沒有錄音。我知道,你最反對民主協商,但是你成功建起民主協商,你就算了。我們這個不計較。市長,不要再提了。"},{"start":13998.808,"end":14011.603,"text":"他有提到問題我才回答,我可以問他的問題好不好,院長不好意思。然後當初問我,我當然是禮貌上說,你也講說回去問賴總統,你也講我說,我當然禮貌上再問,再回答嘛,沒問題啊。"},{"start":14018.41,"end":14034.309,"text":"難道我當天就在那個地方．沒有直播的地方跟你們吵架嗎．不可能嘛。這個方．要到新竹錄影嘛．那天氣氛還不錯．院長也這樣開口．我說好我就問．所以我告訴你．我知道賴總統在．"},{"start":14035.871,"end":14051.328,"text":"媒體講很清楚他寫的都很濃講很清楚但是我當然也跟你們吵架也不對嘛也沒有直播所以我這樣講就是說黃莊委員剛才又是迴避問題嘛就是講什麼這個他要來立法院決定就好是這樣嗎他沒有形式我們立法院自己來決定"},{"start":14058.475,"end":14072.288,"text":"是這樣嗎?那是遭由憲政通徒吧。你把一個法,要憲法問題,你把它降低層次到執行刑事法,你是迴避問題,到現在目前還是一直迴避問題嘛。他來,讓立法院來解釋就好。"},{"start":14075.888,"end":14099.803,"text":"讓他假如假如你們希望你們希望一問一答或是同問同答三問三答他不要的話是不是先人衝突這個大家要講好啊我們不是讓他來製造先人衝突這是要讓先一個歷史的里程碑先要開始這是用這種心情去看待講了半天還是在秀娃問題大家迴避秀娃然後然後繞了半天"},{"start":14102.562,"end":14127.467,"text":"謝謝柯總,謝謝各位黨團幹部,大家真的非常的辛苦,再一次感謝。那事實上那一天我們講了禮拜四我們要再協商,應該是有三個方案,我補充一下試試看。第一個,個人委員問完以後總統回答。第二,政黨問完以後政黨回答。第三,全部問完以後總統做一個統一回答。大致上禮拜四下午我們可以討論這個方式。那我再一次感謝各位黨團幹部還有各位工作的夥伴,大家都很辛苦。"},{"start":14128.027,"end":14136.985,"text":"也請議事處處長去跟交通部王部長還有高副主委質疑一下他們枯坐了一下午非常不好意思那我們禮拜四我們繼續協商現在散會謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}