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林靜儀次長那"},{"start":50.353,"end":63.238,"text":"他今天沒來是怎麼樣?我聽說昨天召委有邀請他來嗎?對不起,因為時間有點緊,所以他今天有很多的行程各位都知道部長在這裡真的都要靠三位次長"},{"start":64.625,"end":84.986,"text":"你也知道衛福部的業務太多了,有的社福那邊也要去所以是部長允許他不來就對了那我有跟趙偉親自請假,感謝趙偉那我知道他去年到現在有總共三次了去年點滴事件,點滴的事件他跟醫護對嗆"},{"start":87.528,"end":114.245,"text":"這個某些人站著說話不腰疼你要的2000CC廠商沒在做改給你500CC堅持這樣說堅持這樣沒貨那最終的結果又是就是沒有嘛就是缺嘛那個總預算他當過立法委員還配合我們民進黨在做這個造謠帶風向更扯的是連數字都不看凍結預算"},{"start":116.206,"end":144.017,"text":"不在乎什麼韌性國家醫療部長你也當過立法委員你認為他講的這個對嗎我想林次長也有針對他講的話有些不得體他都有深切檢討有嗎像上一次我們的行政院長也有特別要求要謹言慎行他已經三次了你們還繼續想保他"},{"start":147.045,"end":168.249,"text":"我們留下他的,我們是沒有人才了是嗎?衛福部沒有人了嗎?我們國家的人才很多啊對啊,那為什麼出了那麼多狀況,我們部裡面都沒有反應?還是你動不了他?他有不但聲勢減少,而且更加工作努力他的工作能力是專業的側翼?"},{"start":171.721,"end":178.345,"text":"那個他的專業說實在比我強很多啦所以部長你不會當側翼不會當網軍就對了這點你輸他"},{"start":182.687,"end":209.823,"text":"不是專業啦專業他的工作效率啦以及對事情的一個分析能力啦都給我非常都給我們衛福部很多的好啦我還是覺得啦部長你還是要多管管底下的人啦如果真的在這樣子不是人應該該讓他走就讓他走我們一定深切檢討謹言慎行那我再請問部長是那個前幾天你有到那個"},{"start":211.517,"end":228.117,"text":"醫院去嘛 到急診室去看我真的實實是在那邊打氣絕對不是視察 我不需要視察因為數據 急診的數據都在我們手上所以你也相信我們現在這個急診室的狀況那個媒體拍的 你相信嗎"},{"start":230.803,"end":257.434,"text":"額 陸委員報告齁我在台大醫院出入40年我的出入幾乎不是正門都是從急診旁邊側門急車路進去所以急診每天發生的情況齁我跟那個石崇良他也是台大急診出身的應該都深切的了解你應該都知道嘛深切的了解他的一個辛苦那你為什麼那時候去看的時候你去打氣然後然後搞得人仰馬翻所有人都要移走呢所有病人都要往"},{"start":258.695,"end":273.591,"text":"那個 報告委員那個所有的所有的醫院都有發聲明說他們完全沒有去做任何完全都是正常的程序而且把時間點都寫得清清楚楚後來媒體再去啊他去了林口 台大"},{"start":274.712,"end":301.758,"text":"我沒有去林河長庚林河長庚永遠都是非常擁擠的但是因為時間的關係我已經到我本來沒有要去看雙河啦但是到已經四點多的時候我想說雙河還是聽說也是也是屬於比較擁擠的以後要去的時候那個時候才打電話跟他說要去以後如果你要去視察這個你上我車我們直接上你也不要問我去哪裡我帶你去看可以嗎"},{"start":302.93,"end":320.362,"text":"我可以隨時配合委員的如果可以的話那個古代青菜大臣要微服出訪他一定不會驚動地方這樣我們才看得到民間的真正的狀況這樣好不好我沒有說實在我不是去視察我是真的去打氣而已啦然後"},{"start":321.022,"end":339.245,"text":"也給那些在努力的不管是給他院長督導督導你也是醫生啦我相信你也知道說我們醫院為什麼要分科那護理人員也是啦那急診需要內科床位內科床位滿床的時候婦婦產科有床"},{"start":340.146,"end":368.755,"text":"內科病人可能就會轉到婦產科你要醫護人員去執行他不熟悉的業務這樣對醫護人員其實來講說他的壓力是非常非常的大啦這個不是比喻這是現實發生的狀況那我也聽說你們說要推這個早期出院在宅接受治療照顧這個有嗎那人力呢有想過嗎一個團隊出去車程一天那個要算車程他一天能夠去幾家好這個我想"},{"start":370.06,"end":391.972,"text":"Hospital at home就是說我真的很感佩委員對這個醫療的了解跟關心那這個是其實在國際已經推很久了我知道啦但是我們現況我們以台灣的現況來講我們僅有的人力就是要去做更有效率的事情如果讓我們一切都站在病人的立場如果他只是為了一個打個抗生素"},{"start":394.119,"end":410.633,"text":"這個我想大家都很有經驗我們也常常在服務打個抗生素如果一定要急診打一個禮拜大概就您的想法跟用意出發點我覺得都不錯但是我覺得要回歸現實面就是說我們如果做這件事情的時候那如果這些人配置在醫院"},{"start":411.675,"end":425.198,"text":"他又可以照顧多少治療的這個患者包括委員我們這個不只醫院的團隊我們的基層團隊我們也希望地區醫院人力比較如果人力比較夠都可以投入這樣的我們現在的重點就是沒有人"},{"start":426.549,"end":449.826,"text":"不是沒有床有時候是不均的問題因為我們自己當民意代表我們每天可能要接幾十通的電話六十通電話就是沒有床的事情我們也很痛苦所以我們在去年就一直希望把健保點子提高讓醫護人員能夠留下來但是我們部裡面它又自動打折了我請問部長你那天有講到說"},{"start":453.547,"end":464.217,"text":"你突然公布說我們護理人員的薪資的數據你的目的是什麼你是說有7萬嗎是這樣子各位報告這個網站其實在112年的11月就已經"},{"start":470.488,"end":488.69,"text":"各醫院有400多家的醫院填上去那我在確認當時照護師邀請各醫院填上去的目的事實上不是這樣子啊是說是希望能夠讓護理人員知道各個醫院的薪資是怎麼樣可是你7萬是怎麼來的那當然是"},{"start":491.246,"end":502.543,"text":"包委你可以看一下這裡有個非公子齁如果是年資一年以下的最低值其實是四萬二也是相當低啦對啊所以我要問的是七萬是怎麼來的"},{"start":504.723,"end":519.518,"text":"所有的數據都是醫院他們那邊填的我們後來104薪資情報顯示一年以下的護理師年平均才58.4萬一到三年才達到62.5萬薪資根本就沒有你說的7萬"},{"start":524.957,"end":538.89,"text":"七萬是因為那個網站上面我本來以為部長你說的七萬是今年你要把它調到七萬是這樣嗎這個是醫院他把固定收入跟會固定收入通通加起來除以二"},{"start":539.911,"end":567.247,"text":"的一個數字的成績我拜託委員齁能夠上一個一照護師的網站比這個更詳細啦他裡面有寫各個醫院400多家醫院裡面的所有薪資我覺得那個薪資我問過所有醫院的院長他們說他們哪裡敢造假齁但是只是呈現方式的不一樣因為他呈現的是可能把所有的所有的醫院支出給護理人員的都把他加進去啦齁"},{"start":568.368,"end":595.898,"text":"對啊所以真正護理的願意我們現在問的是護理師拿到的我好像沒那麼高啊我的薪資就沒那麼高啊所以這樣的差距讓大家誤解我想我要我必須要真的感到抱歉那這個數據跟跟實際上拿的這個東西如果站在議案的立場他會覺得說這就我付出給護理同仁了嘛我看到我看到這7萬的數字這個部長宣布7萬的時候我很高興我猜我要我從來沒有寫過多少"},{"start":596.778,"end":616.17,"text":"我要帶這些護理人員跟部長說謝謝你要把他調到7萬因為是有記者會說要尋找7萬我們只是把數據公費說實在如果能夠讓護理人員更高或達到這個數目是我們也是日夜以求的事情我們提到7年的1260億的計畫113年執行哪些"},{"start":623.712,"end":627.715,"text":"不好意思7年那個1260億的計畫那個叫那個說像計畫嗎還是護理人員那個護理人員政策準備12年車輛車輛車類說像車類我想市長跟委員報告一下說像車類的一個做法"},{"start":648.41,"end":672.251,"text":"我們12項策略有4項是有公務預算的有4項一個就是這就包含了三班醫護比入法嘛對對那現在做的怎麼樣夜班獎勵夜班獎勵三班先達標先獎勵那因為去年是3月1號開始執行所以去年有用了40億你們不是說要讓三班護病比這個入法嗎"},{"start":673.667,"end":691.068,"text":"對我們先講因為現在如果要達到這樣的標準還要7000到8000人所以我們現在去年開始執行嘛就是因為人員不夠嘛對不對人員不夠所以你現在不能錄啊要增加的因為你錄了之後馬上這個船會關更多先獎勵然後朝著這個方向走這樣子"},{"start":691.764,"end":700.194,"text":"所以我們第一階段一定是留了人才嘛去年我們又合訂政策準備中長城計畫護理人員的政策準備中長城計畫我們也編了248億每年68億"},{"start":711.948,"end":725.379,"text":"每年68億 4年是275億也就是說我們家前項計畫是總共投資護理是248億那我請教部長這些計畫裡面哪些是護理人員直接能拿到的"},{"start":726.038,"end":741.869,"text":"夜班獎其實這都要用在護理人員的這個都要用在護理人員的這個職場環境的改善那夜班獎勵是直接到護理人員的薪資裡面夜班獎勵那先達標先獎勵呢原則上是要給白班然後沒關係因為時間的問題啦時間的關係那你現在不用急著回答我你們把這個113年180億執行的成效"},{"start":756.198,"end":768.523,"text":"多少錢花在什麼地方多少錢花在提升醫護人員的待遇把資料給我好嗎好沒問題這多久可以給我沒問題多久兩個禮拜內好謝謝部長好謝謝委員對護理職場的關心非常感謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":395,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時11分）有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。我想請問一下，部裡有一個次長叫側翼次長，你知道是誰嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：衛福部有三位次長，都是真的非常盡忠職守。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你現在有帶手機嗎？我們幫他查一下。手機搜一下就知道啦！"],["邱部長泰源：現在我專心聆聽委員的指教，不敢動用手機。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我跟你講就是林靜儀次長，他今天沒來是怎麼樣？我聽說昨天召委有邀請他來。"],["邱部長泰源：對不起，因為時間有點緊，而他今天有很多的行程。各位都知道，部長在這裡備詢，真的都要靠三位次長。你也知道衛福部的業務太多了，有的社福那邊也要去……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以是部長允許他不必來就對了？"],["邱部長泰源：我有親自跟召委請假，感謝召委。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道他去年到現在總共有三次，包括去年點滴事件，他跟醫護對嗆，說某些人站著說話不腰疼，你要的2,000c.c.廠商沒在做，改給你500c.c.，堅持這樣沒貨，最終的結果就是沒有，就是缺。那在總預算，他當過立法委員，還配合民進黨在造謠帶風向，更扯的是說連數字都不看，凍結預算不在乎韌性國家醫療。部長也當過立法委員，你認為他講的這個對嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想林次長針對他講的話有些不得體都有深切檢討。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有嗎？像上一次他不是嗆求助的醫生嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：行政院長也有特別要求要謹言慎行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：他已經三次了，你們還繼續想保他。我們是沒有人才了，是嗎？衛福部沒有人了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們國家的人才很多啊。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！為什麼出了那麼多狀況，部裡都沒有反應，還是你動不了他？"],["邱部長泰源：他不但有深切檢討，而且更加工作努力。"],["邱委員鎮軍：他的工作能力是專業的側翼？"],["邱部長泰源：說實在，他的專業比我強很多。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以部長不會當側翼，不會當網軍就對了？這點你輸他。"],["邱部長泰源：不是，是專業，他的工作效率以及對事情的分析能力，都給衛福部很多的想法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我還是覺得部長要多管管底下的人，如果真的再這樣，不適任該讓他走就讓他走，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定深切檢討、謹言慎行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再請問部長，前幾天，你有到醫院急診室去看。"],["邱部長泰源：我真的只是去那邊打氣，絕對不是視察，我不需要視察，因為急診的數據都在我們手上。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你也相信我們現在急診室的狀況，有關媒體拍的，你相信嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，我在臺大醫院出入40年，我的出入幾乎不是正門，都是從急診旁邊側門徐州路進去，所以急診每天發生的情況，我和石崇良，他也是臺大急診出身的，應該都深切地了解……"],["邱委員鎮軍：應該都知道嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：深切地了解它的辛苦。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你為什麼那時候去看、去打氣的時候，搞得人仰馬翻，所有人都要移走呢？是因為你要去嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，所有的醫院都有發聲明說他們完全沒有去做任何……完全都是正常的程序，而且把時間點都寫得清清楚楚。"],["邱委員鎮軍：可是後來媒體再去，他們去了林口、臺大，排隊的人都上百人，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：我沒有去林口長庚，林口長庚永遠都是非常擁擠的，因為時間關係，我本來沒有要去看雙和，但是四點多的時候，聽說雙和也是屬於比較擁擠的，所以我特別……"],["邱委員鎮軍：以後要去的時候……"],["邱部長泰源：那個時候才打電話跟他說要去。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，以後如果你要去視察，你上我的車，你也不要問我去哪裡，我帶你去看可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：可以啊，我可以隨時配合委員，如果可以的話。"],["邱委員鎮軍：古代欽差大臣微服出訪，他一定不會驚動地方，這樣我們才看得到民間真正的狀況，這樣好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：說實在，我不是去視察，我是真的去打氣而已，然後也給那些正在努力的，不管是……對他的院長督導、督導，看看做得怎樣。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你也是醫生，我相信你也知道醫院為什麼要分科，護理人員也是，急診需要內科床位，內科床位滿床的時候，婦產科有床，內科病人可能就會被轉到婦產科，你要醫護人員去執行他不熟悉的業務，其實這樣對醫護人員來講，他的壓力是非常非常大，這個不是比喻，這是現實發生的狀況。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我也聽說你們要推早期出院，在宅接受治療照顧，有嘛？"],["邱部長泰源：對、對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：人力呢？有想過嗎？一個團隊出去車程一天，那個要算車程，他一天能夠去幾家？"],["邱部長泰源：好，Hospital at home，我真的很感佩委員對醫療的了解跟關心，這個其實在國際已經推很久了……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道啦，但是我們以臺灣的現況來講。"],["邱部長泰源：好，僅有的人力就是要去做更有效率的事情，我們一切都站在病人的立場，如果他只是為了打個抗生素，這個我想大家都很有經驗，我們也常常在服務，打個抗生素，如果一定要急診，要打一個禮拜當然就……"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，你的想法跟用意、出發點都不錯，但是我覺得要回歸現實面，我們做這件事情的時候，如果這些人配置在醫院，他又可以照顧多少需要治療的患者？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這個不只醫院的團隊，還有我們的基層團隊，我們也希望地區醫院如果人力比較夠，都可以投入這樣的工作……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們現在的重點就是沒有人，對不對？不是沒有床。"],["邱部長泰源：有時候是不均的問題，急重症……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我們自己當民意代表，講真的，我們每天可能要接幾十通的電話，一、二十通電話都是針對沒有床的事情。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們也很痛苦，所以我們在去年就一直希望把健保點值提高，讓醫護人員能夠留下來，但是部裡面又自動打折了，我請問部長，你那天突然公布護理人員的薪資數據，你的目的是什麼？你是說有7萬，是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是這樣子，跟委員報告，這個網站其實在112年11月就已經有四百多家醫院填上去，我再確認當時照護司邀請各醫院填上去的目的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：事實上不是這樣子，對不對？事實上沒有啊！"],["邱部長泰源：事實上是希望能夠讓護理人員知道各個醫院的薪資是怎麼樣。"],["邱委員鎮軍：可是你的7萬是怎麼來的？"],["邱部長泰源：當然是……報告委員，你可以看一下，這裡有一個非公職，如果是年資一年以下的，最低值其實是四萬二，也是相當低啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，所以我要問的是7萬怎麼來的？"],["邱部長泰源：其實所有的數據都是醫院他們那邊填的，我有問……"],["邱委員鎮軍：後來104薪資情報顯示，一年以下的護理師年平均才58.4萬，一到三年到才達到62.5萬，薪資根本就沒有你說的7萬啦！"],["邱部長泰源：不是，7萬是因為那個網站上面……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我本來以為部長你說7萬是今年你要把它調到7萬，是這樣嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不是，這個是醫院把固定收入跟非固定收入通通加起來除以2所呈現的數據，我也拜託委員能夠上一個照護司的網站，比這個更詳細，它裡面有寫各個醫院、四百多家醫院裡面的所有薪資，有關那個薪資，我問過所有醫院院長，他們說他們哪裡敢造假，只是呈現方式不一樣，因為它呈現的可能是把所有醫院支出給護理人員的部分都加進去啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我們現在問的是護理人員真正拿到的……"],["邱部長泰源：護理師認為好像我的薪資就沒那麼高，所以這樣的差距讓大家誤解，我必須要真的感到抱歉，這個數據跟實際上拿的薪資，這個東西如果站在醫院的立場，它會覺得這些都是它付出給護理同仁的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到部長宣布7萬的時候，我很高興……"],["邱部長泰源：我從來沒有宣布多少……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我要代這些護理人員跟部長說謝謝，你要把它調到7萬……"],["邱部長泰源：對啦，因為有記者會說要尋找7萬，我們只是把數據公開，說實在，如果能夠讓護理人員薪資更高或達到這個數目，也是我們日夜以求的事情，對不對？也是大家的心願，問題是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：有關7年1,260億的計畫，在113年執行哪些？"],["邱部長泰源：不好意思……"],["邱委員鎮軍：7年1,260億的計畫，那個叫……"],["邱部長泰源：12項計畫嗎？還是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：護理人力政策整備12項策略……"],["邱部長泰源：12項策略啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：對、對。"],["邱部長泰源：我請司長跟委員報告一下12項策略的作法。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們12項策略有4項是有公務預算的，一個就是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這些包含了三班護病比入法嘛？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對、對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在做得怎麼樣？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：夜班獎勵，三班先達標先獎勵，因為去年是3月1號開始執行，所以去年有用了40億。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們不是說要讓三班護病比入法嗎？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對，我們先講，因為現在如果要達到這樣的標準，還要7,500到8,000人，所以像去年開始執行……"],["邱委員鎮軍：就是因為人員不夠嘛！對不對？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：人員不夠，所以你現在不能入啊！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：要增加人。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為你入了之後，馬上會關更多床。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：先獎勵，然後朝著這個方向走，這樣子。"],["邱部長泰源：所以我們第一階段一定是留人才，讓人才更多……"],["邱委員鎮軍：去年又核定護理人員的政策整備中長程計畫，也編了248億，每年68億嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：每年約68億，4年是275億，也就是說，我們加前項計畫，總共投資護理是248億，我請教部長，這些計畫裡面哪些是護理人員直接能拿到的？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：其實這都要用在護理人員職場環境的改善，夜班獎勵是直接到護理人員的薪資裡面，先達標先獎勵，原則上是要給白班，然後……"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒關係，因為時間的關係，你現在不用急著回答我，你們把113年180億執行成效、多少錢花在什麼地方、多少錢花在提升醫護人員的待遇，把資料給我好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這多久可以給我？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：多久？"],["邱部長泰源：兩個禮拜內。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員對護理職場的關心，非常感謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員、謝謝部長。","接續請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","羅智強","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","劉建國","陳培瑜","楊曜","王義川"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}