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案等3案及委員郭國文等16人擬具不動產條例部分條文修正草案現在請議事以及證券投顧部分條文修正草案等3案及不動產"},{"start":2039.381,"end":2046.466,"text":"這個《證券條例修正草案》一案及條文修正內容含修正動議共二案現在請議事人員宣讀宣讀後預計70分鐘進行協商預計時間是10點20開始協商我們現在請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":2059.518,"end":2076.931,"text":"證券投資信託及顧問法修正草案行政院提案明稱修正為《證券與不動產投資信託及證券投資顧問法》第一條對照現行條文前段文字修正為《為健全證券與不動產投資信託及證券投資顧問業務之經營與發展》其與同現行條文"},{"start":2080.373,"end":2103.475,"text":"第二條新增第二項本法規定事項涉及不動產相關事項者由主管機關會同相關業務主管機關辦理等文字新增第三條之一本法所稱不動產投資信託指向不特定人募集不動產投資信託基金發行收益憑證或向特定人私募不動產投資信託基金交付收益憑證"},{"start":2104.696,"end":2118.183,"text":"從事於不動產、不動產相關權利、不動產相關有價證券或其他經主管機關核准項目之投資或交易本法所稱不動產投資信託事業只經主管機關許可以經營不動產投資信託為業之機構"},{"start":2121.044,"end":2145.455,"text":"不動產投資信託事業經營之業務總類如下一、不動產投資信託業務二、其他經主管機關核准之有關業務不動產投資信託事業經營之業務總類應報請主管機關核准第五條、第一項新增第二款二、不動產投資信託契約只由不動產投資信託事業為委託人、基金保管機構為受託人所簽訂"},{"start":2147.082,"end":2171.83,"text":"用以規範不動產投資信託事業、基金保管機構及受益人間權利義務之信託契約現行第二款調整為第三款現行第三款調整為第四款現行第五款調整為第七款證券投資信託契約修正為證券投資信託契約或不動產投資信託契約證券投資信託事業修正為證券投資信託事業或不動產投資信託事業"},{"start":2174.358,"end":2202.828,"text":"證券投資信託基金修正為證券投資信託基金或不動產投資信託基金增列第六款不動產投資信託基金指不動產投資信託契約之信託財產包括因受益憑證募集或私募所取得之申購價款所生之息及已知購入之各項資產或權利現行第四款、第六款至第九款及第十款至第十二款分別一列"},{"start":2204.329,"end":2230.148,"text":"第五款、第八款至第十一款及第十八款至第二十款內容未修正增頁第十二款至第十七款十二不動產指土地建築改良物道路、橋樑、隧道、軌道、碼頭、停車場與其他具經濟價值之土地定著物及所依附之設施並以該設施與土地及其定著物分離及無法單獨創造價值"},{"start":2231.869,"end":2257.539,"text":"土地及其定著物資價值亦因而減損者為限。13不動產相關權利指地上權及其他經中央物地事業主管機關核定之權利。14不動產相關有價證券指經主管機關核定准予投資之不動產證券化商品或金融資產證券化商品。15開發行之不動產或不動產相關權利指正進行或規劃進行開發"},{"start":2259.02,"end":2277.435,"text":"建築、重建、整建之不動產或不動產相關權利。16專業估價者指不動產估價師或其他依法律得從事不動產估價業務者。17安排機構指對不動產投資信託基金收益憑證之募集或私募安排規劃整體事務者。"},{"start":2280.004,"end":2295.276,"text":"憎略第二項前項第17款所定安排機構應符合一定條件其一定條件及應受規範由同業工會恰商相關工會擬定報經主管機關合定第六條第一項修正為"},{"start":2296.377,"end":2323.513,"text":"非依本法不得經營證券投資信託、不動產投資信託、證券投資顧問及全權委託投資業務但依不動產證券化條例經營不動產投資信託業務者不在此限第三項刪除會商信託業法主管機關等文字第七條第一項增加不動產投資信託事業第三項增加或不動產投資信託基金之等文字"},{"start":2324.724,"end":2352.975,"text":"第八條第一項增加不動產投資信託業務第二項增加不動產投資信託事業等文字並增列第三項提供不動產投資信託基金投資標的之不動產所有人或不動產相關權利之權利人對於其所提供與不動產投資信託事業依本法規定製作文件之資料不得有虛偽、詐欺或其他阻止他人誤信之行為。信行第三項一列第四項"},{"start":2354.284,"end":2364.789,"text":"增加或不動產投資信託基金之等文字新增第二章之一章明不動產投資信託基金增略第49條之一至第49條之二十增略第49條之一"},{"start":2370.111,"end":2394.09,"text":"不動產投資信託事業募集或私募不動產投資信託基金非經主管機關核准或向主管機關申報生效後不得為之其申請核准或申報生效應檢附之書件、審核程序核准或申報生效之條件及其他應遵行事項之準則由主管機關定之主管機關於審核前項書件時應洽商相關業務主管機關出具意見書"},{"start":2398.823,"end":2418.28,"text":"基金之募集或私募、發行、銷售及其申購或買回之作業程序由同業工會擬定報經主管機關核定第一項及前項之基金如為國外募集或私募基金投資國內或與國內募集或私募基金投資國外者應經中央銀行同意"},{"start":2419.585,"end":2436.698,"text":"不動產投資信託基金以封閉型基金為限但經主管機關核准者得募及或私募賦買回時間、數量或其他限制之開放型基金增列第49條之二不動產投資信託契約應記載下列各款事項一、不動產"},{"start":2437.557,"end":2456.802,"text":"投資信託事業與基金保管機構之名稱及地址二、不動產投資信託基金之名稱及其程序期間三、不動產投資信託事業之權利、義務及法律責任四、基金保管機構之權利、義務及法律責任五、受益人之權利、義務及法律責任"},{"start":2457.475,"end":2473.724,"text":"六、運用不動產投資信託基金之基本方針、範圍及投資策略七、不動產投資信託基金有關介入款項與其上限及閒置資金之運用八、不動產投資信託基金之收益分配九、收益憑證之買回"},{"start":2477.526,"end":2491.46,"text":"使不動產投資信託基金應付擔之費用十一、不動產投資信託事業及基金保管機構之經理或保管費用十二、不動產投資信託基金及受益權單位淨資產價值之計算"},{"start":2495.494,"end":2514.941,"text":"不動產投資信託契約之終止事由受益人會議之召開事由、出席權術、表決權術及決議方式其他主管機關規定事項不動產投資信託契約範本應由同業工會洽商信託業商業同業工會擬定報經主管機關核定"},{"start":2517.998,"end":2541.681,"text":"不動產投資信託契約之變更應報經主管機關核准。經核准後,不動產投資信託事業應於二日內公告其內容。增列第49條之三,不動產投資信託基金以投資或運用於下列標的為限,且不得投資於住宅法第三條第一款所定住宅。一、已有穩定收入之不動產及不動產相關權利"},{"start":2543.24,"end":2571.169,"text":"二、開發行之不動產及不動產相關權利三、不動產相關有價證券四、主管機關規定閒置資金之運用範圍五、其他經主管機關核准投資或運用之標的不動產投資信託基金投資於開發行之不動產或不動產相關權利時如須取得建造執照者應於該不動產或不動產相關權利領得建造執照後使得動用該基金款項"},{"start":2573.325,"end":2595.64,"text":"目擊之不動產投資信託基金投資於開發型不動產或不動產相關權利以下列各款標的為限一、依都市更新條例和訂之都市更新事業計劃範圍內或依都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例和准之重建計劃範圍內之土地、建築物及不動產相關權利"},{"start":2597.765,"end":2612.948,"text":"二、促進民間參與公共建設法所定公共建設三、經中央目的事業主管機關核准參與之公共建設不動產投資信託基金投資於開發型不動產或不動產相關權利不得超過該基金禁止"},{"start":2615.278,"end":2642.948,"text":"盡資產價值之一定比率其一定比率由主管機關會同相關業務主管機關分別定值採募及方式者該比率不得超過百分之三十前二項之開發型不動產或不動產相關權利不得為下列標的一政府公股佔百分之二十以上事業政府或直接或間接控制之基金或法人參與投資比率合計超過百分之十者二"},{"start":2643.615,"end":2668.208,"text":"政府承諾承擔其債務或保證其營運收益者前項所定標的不含下列事項一、促進民間參與公共建設法第29條規定由主辦機關就公共建設非自償部分補貼其所需貸款利息或按營運績效給予補貼並於投資契約中定名二、提供不動產參與都市更新"},{"start":2669.315,"end":2685.873,"text":"不動產投資信託基金應至少有一定比率投資於有穩定收入之不動產或不動產相關權利且每年分配收益應達可分配收益之一定比率其可分配收益之範圍及一定比率由主管機關會商財政部定值"},{"start":2687.145,"end":2704.403,"text":"第一項及前段不動產投資信託基金投資範圍與限制、閒置資金運用範圍及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定職不動產投資信託基金向關係人取得或處分資產應依規定辦理相關決議程序"},{"start":2707.603,"end":2723.958,"text":"評估交易條件之合理性及取得專業估價者出具之估價報告或會計室意見並因於事實發生之日起二日內公告其內容。前線關係人之範圍決議程序交易條件之評估方式公告方式、估價報告或"},{"start":2726.061,"end":2740.978,"text":"會計師意見之出具方式及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之。增列第49條之四不動產投資信託事業募集不動產投資信託基金應依主管機關規定之方式向申購人交付公開說明書"},{"start":2745.08,"end":2763.603,"text":"不動產投資信託事業向特定人私募不動產投資信託基金對應募人之請求,附有交付投資說明書之義務不動產投資信託事業未依前二項規定交付公開說明書或投資說明書者對於生意相對人因而所受之損害應付賠償責任"},{"start":2765.834,"end":2778.452,"text":"公開說明書或投資說明書應記載之主要內容有虛偽或隱匿知情是下列各款之人對於善意相對人因而所受之損害應就其所應負責部分與不動產投資信託事業負連帶賠償責任"},{"start":2781.676,"end":2802.669,"text":"一、不動產投資信託事業之負責人二、不動產投資信託事業之職員曾在公開說明書或投資說明書上簽章以證實其所記載內容之全部或一部者三、提供不動產投資信託基金投資標的之不動產所有人及其負責人不動產相關權利之權利人及其負責人"},{"start":2803.911,"end":2817.989,"text":"安排機構及其負責人會計師、律師、專業估價者、其他專門職業或技術人員曾在公開說明書或投資說明書上簽章以證實其所記載內容之全部或一部或陳述意見者"},{"start":2819.878,"end":2844.759,"text":"前項應負責任者除不動產投資信託事業外各款之人就其所應負責部分如能證明已盡相當之注意並有正當理由確信其主要內容無虛偽、隱匿情勢或對於簽證之意見有正當理由確信其為真實者免負賠償責任第一項公開說明書及第二項投資說明書其應記載事項之準則由主管機關定之"},{"start":2846.604,"end":2872.316,"text":"增列第49條之五,不動產投資信託事業經營不動產投資信託業務得依不動產投資信託契約之約定指示基金保管機構於一定比率內以基金專戶名義向金融機構辦理借款並度外公告但借款之目的以不動產或不動產相關權利只取得開發、營運或以分配收益所必需或其他經主管機關同意者為限"},{"start":2873.513,"end":2897.343,"text":"不動產投資信託事業得於借入款項之範圍就信託財產為不動產抵押權或其他擔保物權之設定該擔保物權之權利人於不動產抵押權或其他擔保物權之設定範圍內僅得對信託財產申請法院裁定後強制執行第一項借款至一定比率、公告方式及其他相關事項由主管機關定值"},{"start":2898.413,"end":2927.02,"text":"增列第49條之六不動產投資信託事業運用不動產投資信託基金應依據其分析作成決定交付執行時應作成記錄並應定期向董事會提出檢討其分析與決定應有合理基礎及根據前項分析、決定、執行及檢討之方式不動產投資信託事業應訂定於內部控制制度並確實執行其控制作業應留存記錄並保存一定期限"},{"start":2927.74,"end":2941.63,"text":"其保存期限由主管機關定之徵列第49條之七不動產投資信託事業運用不動產投資信託基金從事投資或交易之方式與為指示保管處分"},{"start":2942.58,"end":2969.688,"text":"收付及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定職不動產投資信託事業運用不動產投資信託基金所持有之資產除下列情形外應以基金保管機構之基金專戶名義登記一、不動產或不動產相關權利依土地登記規則辦理登記二、國外之資產依資產所在地法令或基金保管機構與國外受託保管機構所定契約辦理登記"},{"start":2970.868,"end":2998.24,"text":"增列第49條之八不動產投資信託事業應依法及不動產投資信託契約之規定運用不動產投資信託基金除本法或本法授權訂定之命令另有規定外不得為下列行為一、指示基金保管機構為放款或提供擔保二、與本不動產投資信託事業經理之其他不動產投資信託基金間為交易行為"},{"start":2999.7,"end":3011.406,"text":"3.投資於本不動產投資信託事業或與本不動產投資信託事業有利害關係之公司所發行之證券4."},{"start":3011.406,"end":3015.587,"text":"運用不動產投資信託基金買入該基金之受益憑證5."},{"start":3015.587,"end":3023.411,"text":"其他經主管機關規定之禁止事項前項第三款所定有利害關係之公司其範圍由主管機關定之"},{"start":3025.668,"end":3037.162,"text":"證頁第49條之九不動產投資信託事業應至少每3個月評審不動產投資信託基金之資產一次於必要時或依不動產投資信託契約之約定並得洽請"},{"start":3039.726,"end":3058.991,"text":"專業估價者或專家出具相關估價報告書或意見作為評審基金資產之參考評審結果於報告董事會後應公告之不動產投資信託事業運用不動產投資信託基金從事達主管機關規定之一定金額之不動產或不動產相關權利交易前"},{"start":3060.011,"end":3083.764,"text":"應先洽請專業估價者依不動產估價施法之規定出具估價報告書並應於事實發生之日及二日內公告之。前二項所稱之專業估價者或專家應與不動產投資信託事業及交易當事人無國際會計準則第24號所定之關係人或實質關係人之情事"},{"start":3085.39,"end":3095.692,"text":"第一項及第二項之估價報告書範本由不動產估價主管機關或不動產估價師工會定定之同業工會應對不動產投資信託基金之資產評審擬定評審原則報經主管機關核定增列第49條之十不動產投資信託事業應於每營業日計算不動產投資信託基金進資產增價值"},{"start":3111.974,"end":3139.858,"text":"不動產投資信託事業應於每一營業日公告前一營業日不動產投資信託基金每受益權單位之淨資產價值但不動產或其他基金資產之資產價值於公告期間內無重大變更且對基金之淨資產價值無重大影響者得依不動產投資信託契約之約定以附註揭露方式替代對該不動產或基金資產"},{"start":3140.768,"end":3142.433,"text":"之資產價值重新估價計算"},{"start":3145.455,"end":3165.771,"text":"同業工會應對不動產投資信託基金競資產價值之計算擬定計算標準報經主管機關核定正列第49條之十一不動產投資信託事業項特定人私募之不動產投資信託基金不適用第49條之二第三項第49條之三第九項第49條之九第一項第二項"},{"start":3171.255,"end":3180.703,"text":"第49條之十第二項及第100條第三項有關公告之規定但因依不動產投資信託契約之規定向收益人報告"},{"start":3182.268,"end":3206.062,"text":"憎略第49條之十二不動產投資信託及經濟資產其全部或一部依信託契約之約定出租時其租金得不受土地法第97條第一項規定之限制租賃期限不受民法第449條第一項規定二十年之限制但最長不得超過信託契約之程序期間憎略第49條之十三"},{"start":3208.001,"end":3233.16,"text":"於本條文生效日起算10年內買賣不動產投資信託基金收益憑證停徵證券交易稅增略第49條之14不動產投資信託基金投資所得之收益應至少每年分配一次並應於不動產投資信託契約內明定分配日期前項收益不計入不動產投資信託事業之盈利事業所得額"},{"start":3234.501,"end":3262.271,"text":"於依前項規定分配時為受益人之所得按利息所得課稅第一項收益分配時應以不動產投資信託事業為扣繳義務人依所得稅法規定扣繳稅款受益人為個人者與本條文生效日期算10年內不並計其總額受益人為盈利事業者應記錄其分配年度盈利事業所得而依所得稅法規定課稅"},{"start":3265.066,"end":3283.147,"text":"正列第49條之十五不動產投資信託基金以土地為投資標的該土地之遞交稅於信託關係程序中以基金保管機構為納稅義務人其一納稅額之計算就該基金資產在同一直轄市或縣市"},{"start":3285.395,"end":3300.666,"text":"轄區內之所有信託土地合併計算地價總額。依土地稅法第16條規定稅率課增地價稅。增列第49條之16不動產投資信託基金所持有之建築物得依固定資產耐用年數"},{"start":3301.806,"end":3327.561,"text":"表規定之耐用年數延長二分之一計算每年之折舊費用但經選定延長年限提列折舊者事後年度及不得變更爭略第49條之17不動產投資信託事業得為不動產投資信託基金之合併依本法發行之不動產投資信託基金得與依不動產證券化條例發行之不動產投資信託基金合併"},{"start":3328.959,"end":3344.689,"text":"前項合併應經主管機關核准不同意合併之受益人得請求不動產投資信託事業按當時公平價格買回其持有之受益權單位合併與請求買回之條件、程序、方式"},{"start":3345.393,"end":3372.436,"text":"及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之不動產投資信託契約中指示清算人應於主管機關核准清算後12個月內完成不動產投資信託基金之清算並將清算後之餘額依受益權單位數之比率分派於各受益人但有證單理由未能於12個月內完成清算者於期限屆滿前得向主管機關申請展言一次並以12個月為限"},{"start":3374.625,"end":3388.621,"text":"清算人應將前項清算及分配之方式向主管機關申報及公告並通知受益人清算程序終結後應於2個月內將處理結果向主管機關報備並通知受益人"},{"start":3389.761,"end":3411.518,"text":"增列第49條之18不動產投資信託事業經主管機關核准以合併為目的設立無基金資產之不動產投資信託基金概括承受依不動產證券化條例規定之成立之一個不動產投資信託基金消滅不動產投資信託基金投資之不動產不動產相關權利不動產相關有價證券"},{"start":3415.575,"end":3428.965,"text":"因而並而移轉,適用下列規定一、所說立之各項器具憑證非屬印花稅課徵範圍二、其不動產移轉非屬契稅課徵範圍三、其有價證券移轉非屬證券交易稅課徵範圍四、其移轉之貨物或老物非屬營業稅課徵範圍五、其不動產、不動產相關權利及有價證券之移轉"},{"start":3440.354,"end":3458.962,"text":"非屬所得稅課徵範圍6其不動產移轉不課徵土地增值稅但於在移轉依法應課徵土地增值稅時以該土地合併前之原規定地價或最近一次課徵土地增值稅時合併之申報移轉限值為原地價計算漲價總數額課徵土地增值稅"},{"start":3464.349,"end":3491.627,"text":"增列第49條之19不動產投資信託事業所經理之不動產投資信託基金經主管機關核准與同事業之其他不動產投資信託基金合併存續之不動產投資信託基金對於消滅之不動產投資信託基金所持有之不動產、不動產相關權利、不動產相關有價證券因合併而移轉,適用下列規定一、所疏利之各項器具憑證非屬印花稅課程範圍"},{"start":3494.669,"end":3522.927,"text":"二、其不動產移轉非屬契稅課徵範圍三、其有價證券移轉非屬證券交易稅課徵範圍四、其移轉之貨物或老物非屬營業稅課徵範圍五、於本條文生效日起算十年內因合併而消滅之不動產投資信託基金所持有之土地經申報審核確定其土地已轉現之後即與辦理土地所有權移轉登記其因繳納之土地增值稅"},{"start":3523.787,"end":3539.346,"text":"准予寄存,由存續之不動產投資信託基金於該項土地再移轉時,以並繳納之不動產投資信託契約終止時,經寄存之土地增值稅應優先受償。政略第49條之20"},{"start":3541.052,"end":3558.153,"text":"第十一條、第一項至第三項、第五項及第六項、第十三條、第二十條至第二十七條、第三十二條至第四十二條、第四十四條、第四十五條、第四十八條及第四十九條規定於不動產投資信託基金準用值"},{"start":3561.727,"end":3576.826,"text":"修正第四章章名《證券投資信託事業、不動產投資信託事業及證券投資顧問事業》第63條第一項、第二項、第三項增加不動產投資信託事業第二項後段增列並合法"},{"start":3578.44,"end":3596.376,"text":"行業執照後使得行業等文字第66條第一項後段增列證券投資信託事業符合主管機關所定之條件並取得許可者得兼營不動產投資信託事業等文字第67條第一項、第二項增加不動產投資信託事業等文字"},{"start":3597.455,"end":3616.983,"text":"第68條第一項增加不動產投資信託事業等文字現行條文解認之修正為應予解認第一款至第三款增加尚未執行等文字新增第四款懲犯貪污治罪條例之罪經有罪判決確定尚未執行、尚未執行完畢或執行完畢"},{"start":3617.925,"end":3630.835,"text":"緩刑期滿或赦免後,尚未於二年。現行第四款調整為第五款,增加期貨交易法、不動產證券化條例、洗錢防治法、滋恐防治法及尚未執行等文字。"},{"start":3631.531,"end":3656.263,"text":"現行第五款至第十四款依序調整款次為第六款至第十五款第五款至第七款增加尚未執行等文字第八款增加或經法院裁定開始清算程序等文字第九款尚未恢復往來修正為尚未期滿第十一款修正為授證券交易法第五十六條第六十六條第二款本法第103條第二款第104條或第104條之一準用第103條"},{"start":3660.646,"end":3663.937,"text":"第二款解除職務之處分尚未於3年"},{"start":3665.148,"end":3693.469,"text":"第12款增加不動產投資信託事業及第104條之一準用第103條第10款或第5款等文字第13款增加貨售信託業法第44條第一款解除職務之處分等文字第14款增加不動產投資信託事業第15款增加不動產投資信託等文字第69條增加不動產投資信託事業及專任與兼職限制等文字"},{"start":3695.731,"end":3719.213,"text":"第七十條增加不動產投資信託事業等文字第七十條之一第一項、第二項增加不動產投資信託事業第一項、第一款增加不動產投資信託等文字第七十一條第一項增加不動產投資信託事業及第四十九條之八第一項第二項不動產投資信託事業及"},{"start":3721.769,"end":3739.388,"text":"第三條之一第三項等文字第72條增加不動產投資信託事業及與其他相關事項及管理等文字第74條第一項後段修正為轉讓持股前第三項修正文字分派員工酬勞"},{"start":3741.072,"end":3766.364,"text":"新增第二節之一節名不動產投資信託事業增略第82條之一至第82條之五新增第82條之一經營不動產投資信託事業之發起人應具備一定資格條件發起人中應有具備不動產投資管理相關經驗之機構且其所任股份何計不得少於第一次發行股份值50%"},{"start":3768.396,"end":3776.693,"text":"其轉讓持股前不動產投資信託事業應申報主管機關被查前項花期人資資格條件由主管機關定之"},{"start":3777.694,"end":3795.719,"text":"不動產投資信託事業應有一名以上符合前二項所定資格條件之股東除以發行新股分派員工酬勞、發行新股保留由員工承購或符合一定條件者外其合計持有股份不得少於已發行股份總數50%轉讓此股時,不動產投資信託事業應與轉讓前申報主管機關被查前項一定條件由主管機關定資"},{"start":3804.912,"end":3820.15,"text":"不動產投資信託事業之負責人、部門主管或分支機構經理人不得投資於其他不動產投資信託事業或經為其他不動產投資信託事業之董事或經理人但主管機關令有規定者不在此限"},{"start":3821.184,"end":3837.442,"text":"新增第82條之二不動產投資信託事業之股東除符合前條資格條件者外每股東與其關係人及股東利用他人名義持有股份合計不得超過該公司已發行股份總數25%前項關係人之範圍由主管機關定之"},{"start":3843.823,"end":3871.841,"text":"新增第82條之三不動產投資信託事業之發起人自公司設立之日起算一年內不得兼為其他不動產投資信託事業之發起人曾依第82條之一、第二項所定資格擔任不動產投資信託事業之發起人者自主管機關核發該不動產投資信託事業營業執照之日起算三年內不得再擔任其他不動產投資信託事業之發起人"},{"start":3873.208,"end":3891.567,"text":"新增第82條之二不動產投資信託事業應設置獨立董事及審計委員會並以審計委員會替代監察人前項獨立董事、審計委員會之設置及其他應遵行事項準用《證券交易法》第14條之二至第14條之五相關規定"},{"start":3893.075,"end":3903.564,"text":"新增第82條之五、第73條、第79條至第81條規定與不動產投資信託事業經營不動產投資信託業務準用之第84條增加不動產投資信託事業等文字第87條增加與不動產證券投資等文字第94條增加及證券投資信託事業經營不動產投資信託事業等文字"},{"start":3920.66,"end":3936.702,"text":"第100條第一項後段修正為與每會期年度第二季終了後45日內編具半年度財務報告新增第二項不動產投資信託事業運用每一不動產投資信託基金應依主管機關規定之格式及內容"},{"start":3937.643,"end":3959.53,"text":"與每會計年度終了後3個月內編具年度財務報告與每會計年度第二季終了後45日內編具半年度財務報告向主管機關申報現行第二項一列為第三項修正為前二項年度財務報告應經主管機關和准值會計時查和簽證半年度財務報告應經會計時合約"},{"start":3963.774,"end":3970.95,"text":"並經基金保管機構簽署。證券投資信託事業及不動產投資信託事業並應予以公告之。"},{"start":3972.506,"end":3983.317,"text":"正列第四項,不動產投資信託事業為編具不動產投資信託基金年度財務報告應先洽請專業估價者依不動產估價施法規定出具估價報告書半年度財務報告之編具得洽請專業估價者或專家出具估價報告書或意見上開估價報告時諸出具"},{"start":3997.33,"end":4008.487,"text":"因依第49條之九第三項及第四項規定辦理,現行第三項一列為第五項修改為第一項及第二項年度財務報告等文字。"},{"start":4013.493,"end":4031.358,"text":"第101條第一項增加不動產投資信託事業及或會同相關業務主管機關派員等文字第104條增加不動產投資信託事業及或第104條之一準用錢條等文字增列第104條之一第93條、第95條、第96條、第98條、第99條"},{"start":4037.369,"end":4064.39,"text":"第102條及第103條規定與不動產投資信託事業經營不動產投資信託業務準用之第105條第一項增加不動產投資信託業務等文字第105條之一第一項增加不動產投資信託事業不動產投資信託基金資產等文字第106條第一項增加不動產投資信託事業等文字第一項之"},{"start":4065.458,"end":4084.395,"text":"第一至第三款均增加情勢增列第二項有下列情勢之一自身損害於公眾、他人或基金資產者處一年以上、七年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣五千萬元以下罰金"},{"start":4085.356,"end":4102.164,"text":"一、提供不動產投資信託基金投資標的之不動產所有人不動產相關權利之權利人或安排機構交付虛偽不實之資料或以其他不正方法使不動產投資信託事業於依本法規定交付之文件有虛偽或隱匿之情勢"},{"start":4106.943,"end":4119.735,"text":"二、專業估價者依本法規定出具之估價報告書有虛謂或隱匿之形式第107條第一項第二款增加不動產投資信託業務、證券投資顧問業務等文字第108條第一項增加不動產投資信託事業等文字"},{"start":4126.104,"end":4143.149,"text":"第111條第一項增交不動產投資信託事業等文字修正處罰規定為1500萬元以下罰還並得令期限期改善藉其為改善者得按次處罰第一款至第11款文字修正"},{"start":4143.689,"end":4166.678,"text":"一、違反第三條之一第四項或第四條第四項規定經營未經主管機關和準職業務二、違反主管機關一第十四條第一項、第十八條第一項、第四十九條之七第一項或第五十六條第一項所定辦法有關投資交易範圍、方式或限制之規定"},{"start":4168.473,"end":4183.322,"text":"3違反主管機關一第16條第10項所定辦法有關投資交易範圍或限制之規定4違反第16條之一第一項、第19條第一項、第49條之八第一項、第49條之九第一項至第三項、第51條第一項或第59條規定"},{"start":4190.638,"end":4214.33,"text":"五、違反第49條之三、第一項之第七項、第九項規定或主管機關一、第八項所定辦法有關投資範圍或限制資金運用範圍之規定或一、第十項所定辦法有關關係人之範圍、決議程序、交易條件之評估方式、公告方式、估價報告或會計時意見之出具方式之規定"},{"start":4216.43,"end":4227.499,"text":"違反第49條之五第一項、第二項規定或違反主管機關一第三項所定有關借款至一定比率公告方式之規定違反主管機關一"},{"start":4230.015,"end":4239.184,"text":"58條第二項所定有關投資標的分散比例之規定8違反第63條第一項規定未經主管機關合法營業執照而營業或違反第63條第二項規定未經主管機關許可並合法營業執照而營業"},{"start":4247.489,"end":4257.334,"text":"九違反主管機關一第69條所定規則有關人員資格條件、專任或兼職限制、行為規範、訓練、登記期限、程序之規定"},{"start":4261.211,"end":4289.111,"text":"10違反主管機關一第七十條所定規則有關限制禁止之規定11違反主管機關一第七十二條所定規則有關財務業務遷移財撤或管理之規定第112條第一項文字修正為並得令其限期改善藉其未改善者得按次處罰1為依第十五條第一項或第四十九條之四第一項規定交付公開說明書"},{"start":4291.174,"end":4317.485,"text":"違反第63條第三項規定使用類似證券投資信託事業、不動產投資信託事業或證券投資顧問事業之名稱第113條第一項增加不動產投資信託事業等文字修正文字並得令其限期改善,藉其予改善者得按次處罰第二款至第六款修正文字為違反第17條第一項、第二項或第49條之六規定"},{"start":4320.165,"end":4326.469,"text":"3為議第20條或第49條之二十準用第20條規定提供查閱4為議第26條、第49條、第49條之二十準用第26條或第49條、第74條第一項、第三項、第81條第一項、第82條之一、第一項、第三項、第82條之五準用"},{"start":4345.858,"end":4347.923,"text":"81條第一項、第99條第一項、第100條第三項及第4項"},{"start":4352.355,"end":4370.74,"text":"或依第104條之一準用第99條第一項規定製作、申報、公告、備制或保存帳簿、表冊、傳票、財務報告或其他有關業務之文件或事項五違反第29條第一項、第43條第一款、第45條第4項、第49條之二第三項、第49條之十第二項、第49條之二十準用第45條第4項"},{"start":4380.216,"end":4402.407,"text":"第96條第4項、第5項或第104條之一准用第96條第4項、第5項有關應公告規定6、未依第47條第二項或第49條之17第4項規定申報、公告、通知或報備第9款修正文字為標準"},{"start":4404.551,"end":4423.359,"text":"第11款修正為違反第96條第二項或第104條之一準用第96條第二項規定,無正當理由拒絕主管機關之指定承受。第114條修正後段文自為並得令其限期改善,藉其為改善者得按次處罰。"},{"start":4424.6,"end":4432.428,"text":"第115條增加或第49條至20準用第21條、第23條第一項、第24條第一項、第40條第一項等文字第121條刪除、第122條刪除委員郭國文等16人提案"},{"start":4446.517,"end":4463.212,"text":"對照行政院提案版本第五條、第一項十二款不動產指土地、建築改良物、道路、橋樑、隧道、軌道、碼頭、停車場與其他具經濟價值之土地定著物及其所依附設施刪除行政院版本"},{"start":4463.872,"end":4490.605,"text":"並以該設施與土地及其定著物分離及無法單獨創造價值、土地及其定著物之價值以因而減損者為限等文字。第14款不動產相關有價證券指經主管機關核定準與投資之不動產證券化商品、金融資產證券化商品或其他不動產相關有價證券叫行政院版本增加後段或其他不動產相關有價證券等文字。"},{"start":4492.116,"end":4515.038,"text":"身處行政院版第15款關於開發行之不動產或不動產相關權利之定義第49條之三不動產投資信託基金以投資或運用於下列標的為限且不得投資於住宅法第三條第一款所定住宅一不動產二不動產相關權利三不動產相關有價證券四"},{"start":4516.579,"end":4539.698,"text":"主管機關規定閒置資金之運用範圍。其他經主管機關核准投資或運用之標的。不動產投資信託基金投資開發階段之不動產或不動產相關權利者,以依不動產興建計劃及財務計劃建立控管,就預計興建完成之不動產已有使用約定,並可預期興建完成之不動產據收益者為限。"},{"start":4540.836,"end":4563.749,"text":"目擊積私募之不動產投資信託基金投資於開發階段之不動產或不動產相關權利不得超過該基金信託財產價值之一定比率其一定比率由主管機關會同相關中央目的事業主管機關分別定之不動產投資信託基金應投資於有穩定收入或"},{"start":4564.994,"end":4579.131,"text":"具可預期收益之不動產或不動產相關權利且每年分配收益應達可分配收益之一定比率其可分配收益之範圍及一定比率由主管機關會商財政部定之"},{"start":4580.489,"end":4607.454,"text":"第一項及前項不動產投資信託基金投資範圍與限制、閒置資金運用範圍及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定職不動產投資信託基金向關係人取得或處分資產因依規定辦理相關決議程序、評估交易條件之合理性及取得專業估價者出具值估價報告或會計師意見並因於事實發生之日及二日內公告其內容"},{"start":4608.374,"end":4623.783,"text":"前項關係人之範圍、決議意見、程序、交易條件之評估方式、公告方式、估價報告或會計師意見之出具方式及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之第49條之17"},{"start":4626.274,"end":4647.622,"text":"不動產投資信託事業得為不動產投資信託基金之合併。依本法發行之不動產投資信託基金得與依不動產證券化條例發行之不動產投資信託基金合併。依不動產證券化條例發行之不動產投資信託基金得轉至為依本法發行之不動產投資信託基金。"},{"start":4648.86,"end":4669.126,"text":"前向合併或轉資應經主管機關核准不同意合併或轉資之受益人得請求不動產投資信託事業按當時公平價格買回其持有之受益權單位合併轉資與請求買回之條件、程序、方式及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之"},{"start":4670.606,"end":4694.448,"text":"不動產投資信託契約終止時清算人應於主管機關核准清算後12個月內完成不動產投資信託基金之清算並將清算後之餘而依受益權單位數之比率分派於各受益人但有證單理由未能於12個月內完成清算者於期限屆滿前得向主管機關申請展延一次並以12個月為限"},{"start":4697.031,"end":4720.464,"text":"清算人應將前項清算及分配之方式向主管機關申報及公告並通知受益人清算程序終結後應於2個月內將處理結果向主管機關報備並通知受益人依第一項進行合併之租稅措施準用企業併購法第39條規定其餘均同行政院提案條文"},{"start":4723.7,"end":4738.644,"text":"委員林楚茵等17人提案法案名稱修正為《證券與不動產投資信託及證券投資顧問法》第一條修正前段文字為《為健全證券與不動產投資信託及證券投資顧問業務之經營與發展》"},{"start":4741.291,"end":4767.081,"text":"第二條新增第二項本法規定事項涉及不動產相關事項者由主管機關會同相關業務主管機關辦理新增第三條之一本法所稱不動產投資信託指向不特定人募集不動產投資信託基金發行收益憑證或向特定人私募不動產投資信託基金交付收益憑證從事於住宅法第三條第一款所定住宅以外之不動產"},{"start":4767.921,"end":4782.685,"text":"不動產相關權利、不動產相關有價證券或其他經主管機關核准項目之投資或交易本法所稱不動產投資信託事業只經主管機關許可以經營不動產投資信託為業之機構不動產投資信託事業經營之業務總類如下一、不動產投資信託業務二、其他經主管機關核准之有關業務"},{"start":4793.462,"end":4794.603,"text":"不動產投資信託事業經營之業務種類應報請主管機關核准。"},{"start":4847.594,"end":4872.563,"text":"接續宣讀委員郭國文等16人擬具不動產證券化條例部分。第四條對照現行條文相處第一項第一款後段單書規定並修正為一、不動產指土地建築改良物、道路橋樑隧道、軌道碼頭、停車場與其他具經濟價值之土地並著物及所依附之設施。"},{"start":4875.373,"end":4878.015,"text":"地項第三款修正為3."},{"start":4878.015,"end":4890.723,"text":"不動產相關與有價證券至今主管機關核定準與投資之不動產證券化商品、金融資產證券化商品或其他不動產相關之有價證券"},{"start":4895.257,"end":4907.695,"text":"刪除第一項第18款其餘未修正第六條對照性行條文第五項修正為發起人已讓予之不動產或不動產相關權利由設定抵押權者發起人依予讓予時辦理圖銷並檢據相關證明文件與受託機構"},{"start":4914.491,"end":4936.457,"text":"增訂第六項為受託機構申請或申報募集或私募不動產投資信託基金時有未確定之投資標的者依據投資計劃中續名其原因可能來源則定之程序時及即未取得該投資標的時之處理方案追加募集者一同其餘未修正"},{"start":4944.946,"end":4970.058,"text":"第八條對照線型條文第二項修正為請向第五款及第七款所定出具意見之專家應與受託機構及不動產所有人無國際會計準則第24號所定之關係人或實質關係人之請示其餘未修正第九條對照線型條文第五項修正為受託機構募集或私募不動產投資信託基金與核准或申報生肖之最高總額外"},{"start":4971.619,"end":4995.861,"text":"追加孟吉或斯穆達一定比率及金額者應經受益人會議決議並適用第六條規定,不適用前三項規定其一定比率及金額由主管機關定之,其餘未修正。第十七條對照線型條文第一項序文第一款第二款修正為不動產投資信託基金以投資或運用於下列標的為限"},{"start":4996.602,"end":5020.161,"text":"且不得投資於住宅法第三條第一款所定住宅一、不動產二、不動產相關權利徵定第二項為不動產投資信託基金投資開發階段之不動產或不動產相關權利者以一、不動產興建計劃及財務計劃建立控管就預計興建完成之不動產已有使用約定"},{"start":5021.142,"end":5031.714,"text":"並可預期興建完成之不動產據收益者為限。現行第二項已列為第三項,據中前項文字配合修正為第一項,現行第三項已列為第四項。"},{"start":5035.169,"end":5061.07,"text":"刪除縣刑第四項、第五項、第七項及第八項規定縣刑第六項已列為第五項並修正為積私募資不動產投資信託基金投資於開發階段之不動產或不動產相關權利不得超過該基金信託財產價值之一定比率其一定比率由主管機關會同相關中央目的事業主管機關分別定之其予未修正"},{"start":5062.304,"end":5081.201,"text":"第19條對照現行條文第一項但書修正為但介入款項之目的以第17條第一項第一款至第三款及第五款標的之取得開發營運或以配發利息、資息或其他收益所必需者為限其餘未修正。第22條"},{"start":5082.962,"end":5106.526,"text":"對照現行條文第一項後段修正為應先洽請專業估價者依不動產估價施法規定出具估價報告書並因與事實發生之日起二日內公告之第三項第三款修正為3專業估價者及其估價人員應與交易當事人5國際會計準則第24號所定之關係人或實質關係人之情事"},{"start":5108.362,"end":5133.577,"text":"身處第四項其餘未修正。增訂第25條之一為依本法發行之不動產投資信託基金得進行合併。傾向合併應經主管機關核准。不同意合併之受益人得請求受託機構按當時公平價格買回其持有之受益權單位。合併與請求買回之條件、程序、方式及其他相關事項之辦法"},{"start":5134.177,"end":5145.645,"text":"由主管機關定之,依第一項進行合併之租稅措施,應准用企業併購法第39條之規定。第26條對照現行條文第三項修正為前項專業估價者或專家、英語受託機構五國際會計準則第24號所定之關係人或實質關係人之情事,其餘未修正。"},{"start":5158.41,"end":5176.605,"text":"第三十一條對照現行條文第二項修正為前項第四款第四目及第六款規定出具意見之專家應予委託人及受託機構五國際會計準則第二十四號所定之關係人或實質關係人之情事其餘未修正"},{"start":5179.626,"end":5201.765,"text":"繼續宣讀委員顧國文賴會員李坤成等人所提修正動議部分。第四條,墮照現行條文第一項第三款修正為三不動產相關有價證券,只經主管機關核定準與投資之不動產證券化商品或金融資產證券化商品,並刪除第一項第18款其餘未修正。"},{"start":5205.936,"end":5227.044,"text":"第六條對照線型條文增訂第六項為受託機構申請或申報募集或私募不動產投資信託受益證券時有未確定之投資標的者相關申請書件應載明知項目及其他應遵循事項之辦法由主管機關定之追加募集者一同其餘未修正"},{"start":5228.41,"end":5245.043,"text":"第17條對照現行條文第一項序文第一款、第二款本比修正為不動產投資信託基金以投資或運用於下列標的為限且不得投資於住宅法第三條第一款鎖定住宅一不動產二不動產相關權利"},{"start":5248.178,"end":5265.179,"text":"憎定第二項為不動產投資信託基金投資開發階段之不動產或不動產相關權利者已就不動產興建計劃及財務計劃已建立控管就預計興建完成之不動產已有使用約定並可預期興建完成之不動產具收益者為限"},{"start":5266.5,"end":5289.889,"text":"現行第二項一列為第三項,具中前項文字配合修正為第一項現行第三項一列為第四項,相處現行第七項、第五項、第四項、第八項規定現行第六項一列為第五項,首具修正為穆吉吉斯穆之不動產投資信託基金投資與開發階段之不動產或不動產相關權利"},{"start":5293.81,"end":5304.026,"text":"增訂第六項為第一項不動產投資信託基金投資範圍與限制及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之其餘未修正"},{"start":5307.128,"end":5326.715,"text":"第22條對照現行條文第一項後端修正為應先洽請相關估價者依不動產估價施法規定出具估價報告書並應於事實發生之日期二日內於受託機構本機構所在地之日報或依主管機關規定之方式辦理公告"},{"start":5329.212,"end":5344.066,"text":"第三項第三款修正為3專業估價者及其估價人員應與教育當事人5國際會計準則第24號所定之關係人或實質關係人之情事其餘未修審以上宣讀完畢"},{"start":5375.603,"end":5399.839,"text":"委員郭國文、賴會員李坤誠所提《證券投資信託及顧問法修正動議》第五條第一項第十五款專業估價者指不動產估價師或其他依法律得從事不動產估價業務者"},{"start":5404.571,"end":5415.638,"text":"第16款 安排機構只對不動產投資信託基金受益憑證之募集或私募安排規劃整體事務者第49條之三"},{"start":5430.137,"end":5450.772,"text":"第49條之三、第二項不動產投資信託基金投資開發階段之不動產或不動產相關權利者已就不動產興建計劃及財務計劃已建立控管就預計興建完成之不動產已有使用約定並可預期興建完成之不動產據收益者為限"},{"start":5451.914,"end":5477.419,"text":"前項投資不得超過該基金淨資產價值之一定比率其一定比率由主管機關會同相關業務主管機關分別定值產募及方式者該比率不得超過30%第一項不動產投資信託基金投資範圍與限制、閒置資金運用範圍及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定值"},{"start":5485.214,"end":5491.319,"text":"第49條之11對照行政院提案條文修正第49條之3、第6項第111條"},{"start":5509.537,"end":5537.769,"text":"第一項、第五款修正違反第49條之三第一項至第四項、第六項規定或主管機關依第五項所定辦法有關投資範圍或限制、閒置資金運用範圍之規定或依第七項所定辦法有關關係人資範圍、決議程序、交易條件之評估方式、公告方式、估價報告或會計師意見之出具方式之規定"},{"start":5550.563,"end":5556.093,"text":"委員王世堅所提修正動議第49條之三第六項"},{"start":5563.117,"end":5583.643,"text":"第一款一促進民間參與公共建設法第九條之一規定主辦機關於公共建設營運期間有償取得其公共服務之全部或一部或第29條規定由主辦機關就公共建設非自償部分補貼其所需貸款、利息或按營運績效給予補貼並於投資契約中定名"},{"start":5589.132,"end":5590.793,"text":"委員會委員郭國文提出修正動議"},{"start":5620,"end":5625.467,"text":"委員王鴻薇、李燕秀、陳玉珍所提修正動議第49條之三"},{"start":5644.861,"end":5663.027,"text":"第三項、第三款經中英目的事業主管機關或直轄市縣市政府核准參與之公共建設第49條之五第一項修正向非利害關係人之"},{"start":5671.724,"end":5696.016,"text":"委員吳麗華、郭國文、賴慧媛所提修正動議第一條後段促進我國基礎建設及產業升級轉型並接軌國際責任投資達成永續發展目標特制定本法本法未規定者適用《證券交易法》之規定宣讀完畢"},{"start":5702.39,"end":5702.69,"text":"第五條"},{"start":5711.405,"end":5735.895,"text":"第五條第一項第十二款十二不動產指土地建築改良物道路、橋樑、隧道、軌道、碼頭、停車場促進民間參與公共建設法第三條第一項所列之公共建設與其他具經濟價值之土地定著物及所依附之設施及為維持上述不動產及設施營運所必要之資產"},{"start":5740.101,"end":5740.121,"text":"還有﹑"},{"start":5748.39,"end":5770.507,"text":"第五條、第一項、第十四款不動產相關有價證券只經主管機關核定準予以投資之不動產證券化商品或金融資產證券化商品為持有基礎設施或公共建設投資所設立之公司所發行或交付之有價證券或其他不動產及基礎設施相關之有價證券"},{"start":5773.717,"end":5793.872,"text":"第49條之三不動產投資信託基金投資與開發行之不動產或不動產相關權利者已依不動產興建計劃及財務計劃建立控管就預計興建完成之不動產已有使用或利用之約定並可預期興建完成之不動產據受益者為限"},{"start":5797.383,"end":5814.815,"text":"第49條之五第一項不動產投資信託事業經營不動產投資信託業務得依不動產投資信託契約之約定指示基金保管機構於一定比例內以基金專戶名義向金融機構辦理借款並對外公告"},{"start":5815.535,"end":5829.805,"text":"或以持有標的之特殊目的工具辦理借款但借款之目的以不動產或不動產相關權利之取得、開發、營運或以分配受益所必需或其他經主管機關同意者為限"},{"start":5832.796,"end":5848.264,"text":"第49條之十四不動產投資信託基金投資所得之收益應至少每年分配一次並應於不動產投資信託契約內明定分配日期前項收益不計入不動產投資信託事業之盈利事業所得"},{"start":5849.324,"end":5873.85,"text":"於依前項規定分配時為受益人之所得按利息所得課稅第一項受益分配時應以不動產投資信託事業為扣繳義務人依所得稅法規定扣繳稅款受益人為個人者於本條文生效日起算十年內並計其綜合所得總額受益人為盈利事業者於本條文生效日起算五年內"},{"start":5874.861,"end":5895.399,"text":"一、10%之扣繳率、扣繳稅款分離課稅並計其分配年度營利事業所得額。宣讀完畢。好,那我們休息到10點20分開始進行協商。我們現在開始休息。"},{"start":6597.076,"end":6606.063,"text":"好,我們開始寫商話我們先從這個《證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案》開始"},{"start":6611.64,"end":6627.237,"text":"法案名稱的部分我們《證券與不動產投資信託及證券投資顧問法》這個條文基本上行政院的提案跟本會委員郭國文以及提案委員林楚茵都一樣這個部分有意見來請"},{"start":6633.513,"end":6639.357,"text":"對於這個REITs的發展方向今天這個法如果通過的話預估市場的這一塊的動能大概有多少"},{"start":6664.454,"end":6689.015,"text":"不可諱言,不動產的部分裡面包括也很多很多的項目你們以後就是商辦的部分或是工業區的部分或者是在同一個縣市裡面可是座落在不同的地方這些都可以把它摳在一起變成一個綠子髮型的標的嗎是不是可以請主委說明一下,謝謝那我們請黃主委"},{"start":6690.576,"end":6706.943,"text":"我想早期因為不動產政治化條例那當時是在銀行信託的機制之下那這十幾年、二十年來差不多目前剩下六檔左右那中間有很多就清算了"},{"start":6708.164,"end":6726.28,"text":"我們觀察這個案子其實應該是2017、18的時候開始委外研究那考察大概其他鄰近國家日本、新加坡等等、香港覺得這個機制上可能要用基金型的會更活潑所以我們開始展開修法一直到今天謝謝趙委今天召開這個會議"},{"start":6727.961,"end":6748.854,"text":"市場估計政局有去考量但因為這個會期如果能夠通過還要修執法業者還要成立相關的人才跟募集機制建立可能要到明年才可能開始要募集我們有初步去徵求業者的意見是不是請局長跟各位報告"},{"start":6749.594,"end":6764.487,"text":"那請局長那請問像督根的案子或者是危老這些案子以後都可以納入律職範圍嗎?也一併說明謝謝基本上它的建造要變成不可以是助用的"},{"start":6767.148,"end":6767.968,"text":"財政委員林楚茵等17人擬具"},{"start":6792.765,"end":6814.295,"text":"你的邏輯理論是對,但是你顯然不了解建築的實務啦。你就算商用不動產你去督更,現在都市更新它有實施者,那實施者是必須要去向政府機關申請許可,就是地方的建造,合法機關是地方的縣市政府嘛。"},{"start":6815.12,"end":6842.838,"text":"那你用律師這樣子的不動產證券的話他的實施者要寫誰這個恐怕會引起爭議因為現在他就是要明定他現在都更條例都是要明定實施者那實施者是誰、出資多少這個都要明定因為這個會涉及到整個都更未來的融資等各個事項所以就律師的邏輯理論上當然是可行問題在實務上顯然馬上要到達可行一步"},{"start":6843.638,"end":6843.978,"text":"我請組長說明一下"},{"start":6854.95,"end":6882.131,"text":"我這邊補充一下我們這邊判斷的基準主要就是說看這個不動產本身是不是具有穩定的收入嘛如果具有穩定的收入那就符合核心原則就是可以投75%那如果不具有穩定的收入如果這個他可能還在開發階段還不具有穩定的收入那就是可能就會是有設一定的比例的上限所以原則上就是看這個的判斷基準去看說他可以投資的比例啦對"},{"start":6885.051,"end":6910.408,"text":"好,那我們那個預期的效益呢那個剛剛羅委員有在提預期的效益這部分我先補充一下是,委員長預期的效益我們現在已經我們已經對業者做發文件確認出來大概估計3年內就會有將近450億元那5年內會有1000億這個是業者目前所估計的數字但是只限於經營的這個投信業來將來經營不動產的部分"},{"start":6913.73,"end":6937.289,"text":"當然如果有專業的產生,我們就要看來申請的人是誰,那個之後沒辦法問得到這3年到5年內,451到1000億各位委員還沒有請到,陳議員請有請教一下,不動產這個範圍不動產,剛剛大家不是有在問嗎?那像比如說包括,像比如說以我們今天來講,地區要做這種長照建設、公共建設方面這一類是不是也可以納入?醫療、長照、物流"},{"start":6942.393,"end":6966.961,"text":"就是回到剛剛所提的嘛,就是不動產,如果他是不動產的定義,付回不動產的定義,然後他又有一些穩定的收入,那當然就是可以投資超過75%以上那如果他是不動產,但是他還沒有產生穩定的收入的話,那可能是開發階段的,然後就是有一定的比例上限,那的確國外也有一些是長照機構的,也是有"},{"start":6967.461,"end":6985.346,"text":"所以只要它是符合不動產的定義這個長照機構是有取得這個不動產的這個你說當它變成了不動產以後它才可以投是這樣子嗎?對,它必須要先符合不動產的定義比如說今天比如說我們地區想做一個長照機構然後你說必須它蓋成了、變成了不動產以後"},{"start":6990.976,"end":7008.245,"text":"才可以做這樣的這個對,可以啊國外也是這樣他就是會去就是去去買一個長照機構這樣子去因為有一個經營它然後有一個穩定的收益再把它弄成REIT去所以是支持我們剛說的這個綠燃設備啊什麼這些算嗎"},{"start":7015.205,"end":7019.288,"text":"我們上面條文裡頭有不動產的定義,待會會討論到我們在第五條會討論到,來請王煌威委員請"},{"start":7025.016,"end":7049.606,"text":"只限於第5條嗎?沒有,最主要,主要還沒到,我們剛開始討論文件而已。好,那我先提一下,因為剛才我們議政委員所講到就是說如果地方有一些別說一些長照的建設或綠能建設那我有提修正動議是在第49條之3因為原來條文是經中央目的事業主管機關核准參與之公共建設"},{"start":7050.626,"end":7070.178,"text":"我把它擴充為包含直轄市及縣市政府核准的所以這也使得並不是只限於中央主管機關核准那也讓地方政府他們核准的相關的這些只要符合的話那麼這個投資的標的也可以涵蓋在內我就做以上的說明"},{"start":7070.578,"end":7096.616,"text":"好,待會49條之三的時候我們再進行討論好不好其他的委員對這個函案名稱有沒有什麼意見因為沒有意見那我們就照這個行政院版本通過接下來,來第一條第一條大家有沒有什麼意見這版本都一樣委員的版本跟行政院版本都一樣好,沒有意見那我們第一條就照行政院版本通過提案通過來第二條"},{"start":7098.749,"end":7125.383,"text":"第二條委員的版本跟行政院版本也都一樣那我們就照行政院版本通過來第三條之一這個部分呢行政院版本跟委員主要提案的版本內容一樣有提修正動議三之一他剛剛送來"},{"start":7128.96,"end":7147.787,"text":"這一條我們先跳過好不好,我們先跳過待會再回來先保留來來來,第三那個陳俊貞委員的修正動議來來來來好請請陳俊貞委員先"},{"start":7156.437,"end":7178.743,"text":"先讀條文針對第三條之一我讀下了一個公共建設以前公共建設是沒有的"},{"start":7185.58,"end":7191.986,"text":"第三條之一第一項"},{"start":7212.802,"end":7223.855,"text":"後當修正及公共建設不動產及公共建設相關權利不動產及公共建設相關有價證券等。請以行政院提案同。第五條"},{"start":7227.857,"end":7232.599,"text":"請金管會說明一下針對委員所提第三條之一增加公共建設的部分"},{"start":7247.148,"end":7275.187,"text":"第一條之一就是我們這個不動產我們不動產投資信託因為我們這個主要就是不動產嘛那針對不動產的定義其實就是說如果這個公共建設是符合不動產的定義的話其實就是可以涵蓋在我們所謂的不動產裡面了所以我們是覺得說我們本來的這個不動產投資信託的範圍已經可以涵蓋這個公共建設就是剛剛所提到的"},{"start":7275.627,"end":7304.89,"text":"就是公共建設如果符合不動產的定義其實就是框在這裡面了所以我們是參考國外的規定啊因為國外的這個REIT的規定也不會特別去針對公共建設取一個名稱就是直接就是寫我們這個這個名稱其實是符合國際上一致的名稱的啦所以我們是比較建議說還是參考參照我們行政院版本就是寫不動產投資信託那只要這個公共建設符合不動產的定義裡面自然就會框在這個不動產投資信託的架構裡"},{"start":7305.51,"end":7305.91,"text":"羅賓財委員羅賓財委員羅賓財委員"},{"start":7317.639,"end":7344.84,"text":"所以很多人都提到說其實地方一些公共建設剛剛有人提到長照其實面對未來這個是很需要的特別放進去的原因是很多業者他都是挑售減肥就好的東西才弄弄才上那可是這樣如果長期的發展就是變成這個長照或是社會真正有需要的這些其他的這個項目"},{"start":7346.201,"end":7373.989,"text":"全都沒有含在裡面過去也是這樣,你十幾黨裡面有哪一黨有公共建設的吳秉偉先,他第一次發言針對這個條文我們今天是准許這個證券從信託型這不通常證券的話從信託型再加上一個基金型兩型並行可是無論信託型或是基金型都要有機構願意發行REIT"},{"start":7376.328,"end":7392.423,"text":"過去只有17黨就是沒有機構願意發行所以現在增加了基金這個跟你有沒有加公共建設沒有關係而且你這樣弄在法邏輯上會有一個缺陷就是說萬一有一個公共建設它不是不動產的"},{"start":7393.644,"end":7417.707,"text":"我現在當然還沒有馬上沒有想到那你現在是用從事不動產及公共建設那一個不是不動產的公共建設可不可以來發行睿辭就變成有邏輯上的問題相互抵觸對,會有邏輯上的問題因為它是架構是在不動產證券化所以是在不動產底下你現在如果不動產及公共建設這是M的嘛及就是M的嘛"},{"start":7418.348,"end":7443.744,"text":"那這個公文件說萬一不是完全是不動產的時候那如果依照你這個法律你可以發行隨時齁那剛剛羅委員在講的說發行的機構少那是因為以前的那個門縫不大不好賺所以沒有那些發行機構願意來發行嘛那現在就是為了要讓這個商機能夠打開說我們把信託型再加上基金型"},{"start":7446.346,"end":7466.217,"text":"這個邏輯是清楚的所以我覺得在法邏輯上面你把它加上及公共建設反而是範圍有可能會擋不歪去阿剛剛主管機關已經講清楚說只要是不動產無論是不是公共建設有人願意發行都可以"},{"start":7466.917,"end":7477.472,"text":"那我覺得如果是擔心說公共建設不能被包括在裡面是不是把公共建設那個放在立法裡有說明就好不要放在法律的本輪這是我的建議啦 主席"},{"start":7482.595,"end":7498.955,"text":"說得很好不過我是覺得是這樣子就是這個我們今天這個法令叫做《證券投資信託及顧問法》法案名稱當然加了不動產是指說本意是就是說就是在加不動產的這個部分但是我們覺得這個整個這個"},{"start":7501.277,"end":7522.584,"text":"國內這個投資環境來講像我們一直在說這個我們希望跟流台灣嘛然後把錢都留在我們中華民國台北京馬裡面那事實上現在比如說我是講實務面來講當然你們剛剛說齁這個不動產裡頭已經有包含什麼公共建設裡頭但是這是不違背的我說不違背是AND事實上也是可以的"},{"start":7522.864,"end":7549.496,"text":"是一個更進步的修法就是說我們現在國內的公共建設比如我一直以我們離島地區來講齁我們離島地區的很多公共建設齁如果政府、中央政府不給我們預算我們基本上很難以為繼那如果我們要招商引資很多商家因為這個也不一定願意來啦比較偏遠嘛投包率可能也沒那麼好但如果我們在這個裡頭齁增加這些公共建設把它寫在裡齁明文化的話我想對"},{"start":7550.416,"end":7550.636,"text":"並沒有衝突。」"},{"start":7568.369,"end":7593.115,"text":"羅委員謝謝其實可不可以把公共建設放進去在第49條之3的第一項、第二項、第三項中間的第二款裡面這個就寫得很清楚了促進民間參與公共建設法所定公共建設其實這裡面就寫進去了"},{"start":7595.111,"end":7596.912,"text":"其他條文就有了,其實包括第5條、第49條都有了"},{"start":7602.419,"end":7631.759,"text":"一開始寫得更清楚沒有違背我們整個法的意旨剛剛有一些委員建議說在這個立法說明的時候來做補充也可以立法說明不是不好也是一件好事我以前修別的法也曾經在立法上但是如果我們在條文裡面說得更清楚對於鼓勵這個業者到偏遠地區來投資的話他看得更明確我們要去地區的政府要去招商要請業者來投資的話會幫助更大那要請吳平安委再補充說明一下好了"},{"start":7633.94,"end":7640.003,"text":"我覺得我們討論的問題大家講的都有道理但是沒有在同一個平面上我們的問題沒有針對啦"},{"start":7642.391,"end":7664.58,"text":"金門、馬祖或其他地方需要公共建設的投資這個我們非常贊成但是問題是現在我們是要把不動產證券化簡單講這個名稱雖然叫這樣但其實就是不動產證券化那不動產的證券化以前就是信託型那信託型因為信託管理機關等等很多的麻煩使得人家不願意發行"},{"start":7665.72,"end":7691.38,"text":"所以現在他增加基金寫可是你如果這個寫法因為這個法律的法理的文藝從事於不動產及公共建設我舉個例子你剛剛講到好我們現在退一半步講一個實例金門縣政府開辦一個長照機構那算不算公共建設他的建築物、他的房屋、他的病床可能可以算可是他的管理軟體、他的這個醫生、他的護理師"},{"start":7693.628,"end":7719.588,"text":"這個軟體部分就不是不動產的範圍喔那你把公共建設如果你用這個公共建設你是不是把金門縣政府開辦的這個長照機構要納到不動產證據化的律師裡面來這個邏輯上面是矛盾的啦如果你今天是金門要蓋一個大金門到小金門你要蓋一條高速公路那中要收過路費那全部都是硬體建築"},{"start":7720.549,"end":7743.629,"text":"可能你這樣立還可以可是如果你沒有辦法這樣區分一支從事於不動產及公共建設意思是說不動產只要是公共建設是不動產我都要包在這裡面我是覺得這個在法用語的文藝上面這樣子反而是跟原來的條文的原意不是很符合反而你是應該在"},{"start":7745.922,"end":7760.09,"text":"判應該要在這個立法理由裡面說明說不動產的公共建設也是包括在這裡面這樣的話接受你如果從事於不動產"},{"start":7761.69,"end":7778.411,"text":"及不動產的公共建設但是如果你只有及公共建設那我覺得那會出問題啊那我覺得吳秉立委員我可以說嗎那個王委員跟林委員剛剛都有舉手請他們發言完好不好那個王委員你現在要不要再發言沒有了嗎沒有那就請林委員來請"},{"start":7779.947,"end":7795.986,"text":"我其實可以理解就是議政委員他的善意是要往一個更聚焦但是就是我呼應就是吳平蔚委員的說法就是因為瑞慈是指不動產的這個部分的時候但是公共建設會有硬體跟軟體相關的所以"},{"start":7796.727,"end":7816.137,"text":"是不是就是由林民財委員所說的其實49條裡面有涵蓋了那我們就讓他的大前提當中是鎖定Focus在不動產但是因為其實49條裡面有包含在立法說明上面這樣才不會到時候變成是未來出現爭議的時候他要去解釋疑議"},{"start":7816.857,"end":7844.286,"text":"到底所謂的公共建設當中然後是不是跟這個法又不一樣那我認為在立法上面會有一些造成施政上面的反而把公共建設寫進來會開了一個很奇怪的門也可能是限縮也可能是未來產生執行上面的異議所以我還是比較建議希望能夠以這個所謂不動產這樣的原文就是行政院的這樣的版本來做進行"},{"start":7845.933,"end":7852.903,"text":"好 那個 我們其他委員還有沒有其他意見來 那請王委員請 王國文委員"},{"start":7855.421,"end":7882.071,"text":"陳玉娟委員請我覺得吳秉瑞委員說的很好的確那就是像我們這個這個證券投資信託這些業者這個您剛說硬體沒有問題嘛那就是軟體嘛對對我知道我知道我覺得這件事所以我們的我事實上想的是其實包括軟體也應該看在哪個部分還是怎麼樣修正讓我們這個部分可以更先進我也是支持這個看法就是說不是只有硬體可以投後面還有其他條文"},{"start":7884.373,"end":7907.01,"text":"把這個想法納進來啦,就是您剛剛提的包括硬體比如說醫院啦包括什麼這些設備啊什麼這些當然應該整個來講也是要可以的公共監視事實上不是只有包括硬體嘛所以我們怎麼來寫進來啦我寫進來不僅是說讓業者如果要投的時候比較一目了然因為寫在立法院說他不清楚要怎麼來改我可以同意啦"},{"start":7907.29,"end":7934.782,"text":"我再補充說明一下大家今天在立這個法我們今天要先了解它最上位它是一個不動產證券的投資這個投資的目的是為了要盈利那你如果依照衛福部現在的衛生醫療法有一些我們的長照機構或是我們的醫療院所它必須是財短法的而且它的目標必須是公益性它不是以盈利為目的的"},{"start":7935.851,"end":7958.932,"text":"在這個中間的漢格的時候你要怎麼處理我舉個例子長庚醫院很賺錢啊但是長庚醫院在法性質上他是財團法人他是以公益為目標不是以盈利為目標啊那長庚醫院能夠舉個例子長庚醫院拿來律師嗎我們要把財團法人把公益的不是以盈利目的的東西"},{"start":7960.219,"end":7961.62,"text":"提供證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文"},{"start":7981.536,"end":8008.036,"text":"那個叫什麼法?服貿為什麼很多地方談不定就是因為中國的醫療機構他是可以以盈利為目的台灣的醫療機構跟台灣的社福機構絕對是要以這個公益為目的不能夠以盈利為目的所以那個時候的性質就是產生我們在談服貿的時候有非常大的困難跟中間一個很大的gap那我今天也是談一個這個問題"},{"start":8009.537,"end":8032.219,"text":"我們不要幻想一個不動產證券化就把所有的事情包山包海都進來了這個不動產證券化它是目的是為了要投資欸投資的目的是要盈利要賺錢所以剛剛組長才會講說那個如果已經還在投資階段不能夠有一個限制的額度就是擔心投資人投資進去之後結果後來做完了這個東西不賺錢"},{"start":8034.223,"end":8062.076,"text":"投資人會覺得說我被陷在這個所謂的這個投資的坑裡面所以我是覺得大家的我建議啦大家要想不是把你說的問題在這個法律裡面解決這個法律是要處理不動產證券的話是要讓台灣增加投資的管道讓大眾可以賺錢啦所以他的目的是要賺錢而不是去解決你的這一些你這所有的建設的問題好我們都明天有緣氣"},{"start":8064.157,"end":8081.746,"text":"好 謝謝投資有風險投資者都要注意我請問一下組長剛剛那個例子長庚醫院是很穩定發展的長庚醫院就他院區的部分出租給醫院就這樣一項請問這項可不可以納到例子裡面的範圍可以用麥克風"},{"start":8088.291,"end":8115.848,"text":"不動產的定義嘛我們就是說我們投資的是不動產不動產相關權利那在我們的第5條就有去定義什麼是不動產那這邊應該條文有第5條的第12款有去定義不動產的定義就是要指土地建築改良物道路、橋樑、隧道、軌道、碼頭停車場或其他具有經濟價值的"},{"start":8117.429,"end":8132.509,"text":"土地定著物跟它所依附的設施並以該設施跟土地跟它的定著物分離及無法當獨篆造價值土地跟它的定著物的價值亦因而減損者為限。」就是我們針對這個土地有去"},{"start":8133.35,"end":8162.178,"text":"這個不動產有去定義那因為我們這個核心還是說這個是把這個不動產證券化就是把這個活絡這個不動產讓一般的小額投資人可以透過這種方式去參與說他可能沒有辦法當他可能一個小額投資人沒有辦法買不動產去出租嘛沒有辦法當房東那這個的方式只是說聚集一群小額投資的人的錢大家共同去買一個房子"},{"start":8162.638,"end":8182.265,"text":"然後讓他出租產生固定的收益讓小額投資人也有機會去當房東其實是這個概念你沒有回答我委員的問題講那麼多他問題很簡單那個可不可以列入他剛剛的問題很具體啊沒有你沒有回答沒有就是如果他沒有買不動產的話就你說的是可以還不行就是要有不動產要有買不動產"},{"start":8184.298,"end":8207.444,"text":"他現在是先假設長庚醫院這個財團法人跟長庚醫院這個硬體建築物切開然後長庚醫院這個財團法人把長庚醫院這個建築物租給別人來收租金的時候那這個醫院本身能不能拿來REACH啦但是我覺得你這個問題"},{"start":8209.424,"end":8228.594,"text":"對,我知道,只有不動產的問題原則上是可以,問題是長科醫院他如果只有把建築物割出來他這個醫療機構就沒有辦法因為裡面必須要有醫療機構這個醫院才有辦法彰顯他的價值嘛你如果光只有出租醫院那就變成租賃業"},{"start":8229.986,"end":8249.116,"text":"就不是一個醫院。」我可以這樣解釋,那如果有一天藏根醫院要廢掉了我醫院不要開了,就剩下這個建築物我要把它綠此,我要把它那個就只有光這個建築物我讓回當然是可以的啦!羅委員、王委員、陳委員好不好?我剛剛那個問題你還是沒回答"},{"start":8251.937,"end":8262.245,"text":"就是長庚醫院他這個醫院在做他的本身建物的部分是有固定的租金請問他的這個項目可不可以放到日子裡面"},{"start":8265.393,"end":8269.594,"text":"這可能不是只有涉及我們這個投信投顧法的規定可能還有那個相關的其他的法"},{"start":8291.3,"end":8291.54,"text":"王委員講一下"},{"start":8308.052,"end":8333.072,"text":"我必須講其實在這個法裡面其實相關的定義算是蠻清楚的我來回應一下剛才郁真所講的郁真希望把這個REITs能夠擴及到相關的公共建設那剛剛回到講第五條第五條對於本法的其他用詞都有很明確的定義那這裡面其實不動產就是它的標的物就是不動產自己本身還有它所產生的權利我講的對不對?好"},{"start":8335.154,"end":8356.59,"text":"好,那這個定義確定了那剛才,來玉珍,玉珍你要聽一下你關心的公共建設,別說在地方特別是長照那你可以看到第5條有關於公共建設的部分第13款,公共建設指哪些建設呢?在下面嘟嘟嘟嘟嘟,大家可以看到"},{"start":8358.083,"end":8361.824,"text":"在行政院版本在第12項行政院版本裡面第12項"},{"start":8378.062,"end":8389.445,"text":"所以你們這裡面確實沒有公共建設的部分,是不是?第二十三頁是不是?我要講的就是說,其實我們針對公共建設裡面的不動產以及它所產生的權利是可以的。"},{"start":8405.328,"end":8415.498,"text":"你們在原來的條文裡面並沒有針對公共建設的這個項目有規定嗎?對不對?第12款軌道、碼頭、停車場、巨海等所以你們就會變得比較局限,是不是?"},{"start":8427.807,"end":8429.388,"text":"第49條之三,你們事上是有涵蓋公共建設,對不對?"},{"start":8451.187,"end":8479.236,"text":"但你們其實並沒有對像那個御政委員所提案的他的修正動議把公共建設項目講得比較清楚好那如果我們回到第49條之3你們所謂的公共建設比如你們這邊有很清楚啊就是這個投資於開放型不動產或不動產相關權利以下列各款標的為限其中呢那個第二款就是促進民間參與公共建設法所定的公共建設"},{"start":8480.336,"end":8502.852,"text":"所以只要是這個促參條例裡面促參建設法裡面所講的公共建設通通涵蓋是不是所以我們的意思就是說這個不動產如果這個公共建設符合不動產的定義就會通通可以嘛所以剛才羅明財委員所講的"},{"start":8506.815,"end":8527.598,"text":"不管它是醫院、它是長照、或者它是觀光遊器、或者它是影視音,因為公共接觸也包含影視音喔那當然比如影視音裡面它是那種影片什麼那當然不行,是不是?但是它如果比如說它有一些只要是不動產的標的物跟不動產所產生的權利,就是在你們所這個容許的範圍之內,是不是?"},{"start":8531.65,"end":8545.995,"text":"法條第五條所說的不動產跟不動產相關權利的定義的話沒有,其實我要講郁真委員她比較在意的是公共建設裡面所產生的不動產跟不動產利益、不動產權利"},{"start":8547.595,"end":8567.419,"text":"是不是都可以涵蓋在裡面?只要符合你們促進民間參與公共建設法裡面的公共建設,因為公共建設也有一個定義嘛還有另外就是你們這邊講的是直轄市所,不對中央政府中央目的事業主管機關核准的公共建設都涵蓋在內是不是?"},{"start":8570.856,"end":8597.991,"text":"若是的話……不是,他現在是這樣子,剛剛劉明財委員所提的問題,像吳秉瑞委員就認為是不行,剛開始認為不行,你認為你還沒有肯定回答是或不行,可否行或不行,我發現在我遇到所謂有關金管會的澄清中,最大的問題就是你們對於很多事情的定義常常都不怎麼清楚,在法條內不清楚,所以造成很多人去問的時候都得到可能不一樣的答案或是不知道、無所適從,"},{"start":8598.911,"end":8626.344,"text":"這是現行這個業界在對金管會這個很多事情來講最困難的地方因為定義起來你們也比較辛苦那我們要避免你們以後這個執行法令這麼辛苦我們把很多法令定的明確一點以後比較不會無所適從如果大家都覺得這是可以的我們就把它規定進來讓你們以後比較慶祝不要說這個可以這個不行這個可以不行你們還要考慮很久隨著時空變化還是怎麼樣這樣造成你們可能在執行法令也痛苦"},{"start":8626.824,"end":8642.121,"text":"所以我們在訂法院有當然盡量讓他明確化嘛這樣對公務人員也是一件好事啊那陳委員關心的公務建設的部分其實在第5條的部分第49條之3的部分都有寫到我知道我知道我有修正我有提修正所以你們是說到那時間修正你們沒有意見就對了"},{"start":8642.762,"end":8668.037,"text":"沒有,不是,待會再還有一個再討論,我們每一條不同的條文還有就進行討論,好不好?是是是,我知道 它是內涵語,剛剛就是強調說那個公正性已經內涵語了沒關係,我這一條我可以接受像吳秉樂委員所說的嘛我們把它寫在立法說明裡頭,但是後面有名氣的我們就要列出來啦好,謝謝陳委員,那我們第三條的這一個條文就照行政院版通過然後立法說明當中做一個補充說明,對,補充說明,好不好,謝謝"},{"start":8670.685,"end":8695.8,"text":"主席,我補充一下,因為剛我擠手,你一直都不叫我我在講說第三條之第一款的那個就是已經明文就是把它排除住宅法了那可是第二款的社會住宅你沒有排除掉那到底公共建設的不動產裡頭有沒有涵蓋社會住宅這個是我的一個問題"},{"start":8698.61,"end":8714.595,"text":"請局長、組長說明一下是請說明是指49之3是不是我們49之沒有49之3待會我們討論到不是現在第三條之一我現在講的是第三條之一"},{"start":8717.185,"end":8722.731,"text":"第五條修正公寓第五條第一項"},{"start":8735.851,"end":8763.07,"text":"第13款公共建設及下落建設及服務一、公共建設及共同管道二、環境污染防治設施三、污水下水道、自來水及水利設施四、衛生福利及醫療設施五、社會及勞工福利設施六、文教及影視音設施七、觀光油氣設施八、電業、綠能設施及公用氣體燃料設施九、運動設施十、公營綠地設施十一、工業、商業及科技設施十二、新市政開發十三、"},{"start":8764.411,"end":8786.087,"text":"農業及資源循環再利用設施、十四政府聽測設施、十五數位建設第十四款不當產及公共建設相關權利指地上其他經專案目的事業主管機關核定之權利其他不當產及公共建設相關之權利及為持有不當產及公共建設投資所設立之公司所發行或交入之權利第十五款不當產及公共建設相關有"},{"start":8787.108,"end":8815.222,"text":"有價證券此經主管機關核定準與投資之不動產及公用建設證券化商品、金融資產證券化商品及一位持有不動產及公用建設投資所設立之公司所發行或交付之有價證券或其他公用建設相關之有價證券第16款至第21款均為款次調整第二項第一具修正為前項第18款鎖定安排機構區均同行政院提案宣布完畢"},{"start":8821.22,"end":8824.702,"text":"行政院版本的第5條的部分"},{"start":8860.097,"end":8876.584,"text":"這邊有賴委員的提案還有陳委員的提案還有陳一貞委員的提案還有郭委員還有吳立華委員的提案先從行政院板我們就由上而下的部方來處理"},{"start":8879.605,"end":8906.24,"text":"有關於這個部分這個本法其他用詞定義如下第一項的部分有沒有什麼意見看起來都沒有意見沒有意見那我們第一項就主要是第12款嘛在正義主要是第12款"},{"start":8908.325,"end":8933.259,"text":"現場我們有提修正動議的部分是賴委員、陳一貞委員、吳一貞委員、吳立法委員賴委員的修正動議在哪裡?可以給我嗎?在裡頭嗎?有發嗎?修4我沒有收到賴委員的修4是第一條"},{"start":8936.464,"end":8941.169,"text":"第4條有一個修一是什麼?郭國文你提到跳過了嗎?"},{"start":8958.061,"end":8969.515,"text":"對我有提啦,第五條你是第四條還沒討論欸沒有,第五條而已啦,不是第四條沒有第四條,第五條"},{"start":8972.438,"end":8974.059,"text":"喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔喔"},{"start":8999.879,"end":9002.523,"text":"委員你要不要先說一下你的修正動議內容這樣比較快"},{"start":9006.096,"end":9028.697,"text":"我先說明一下就是第12款不動產定義的部分那我做的修正是增加了說直接把促參法第三條第一項所列之公共建設我是希望說就把它寫進去那為什麼就是因為大家剛才討論都很多啦那大家也都承認"},{"start":9029.498,"end":9045.048,"text":"而這幾年像風力發電、太陽能這些其實都是一種具有收益的再生能源設備當然我們在這個定義的部分是有寫土地的定著物及所依附的設施"},{"start":9046.008,"end":9060.985,"text":"但是我這邊其實還是希望說能夠把它明確化因為到底能不能夠把這些納入成為投資標的其實是有一些疑慮的因為它有時候土地也不是它的"},{"start":9061.545,"end":9083.113,"text":"房子也不是他的然後有可拆卸那等等那包含像潰線這些所以我只是希望說透過把初參法第三條第一項所列之公共建設然後維持上述不動產及設施營運所必要之資產希望把它更清楚化我先做這樣的說明謝謝好謝謝我們請來委員"},{"start":9091.988,"end":9121.176,"text":"OK齁,好,那我們接下來請陳委員我的就是依循了我上面的這個修正東西一樣是更明確化啦,像公共建設我們提到了這麼多對不對我們又增加了像這個交通建設管道啊、環境、污水、消費這些到底算不算,如果不列明細的話不列清楚我的最終的這個上位的思考還是說這些東西就是證券投資業者這些投資可以進入公共設施各式各樣的公共建設以補這個現在我說財政的不足啊"},{"start":9121.976,"end":9140.708,"text":"這是最終的這個思考。所以我覺得明確的定化事實上是一個很正面的事情了。看哪一樣是,你們覺得比較,有沒有哪一個是比較不適合的。因為我想我可以理解今晚會所謂的什麼不動產什麼這一類,大家都是想房子啊什麼這一類的,但是我們修法既然修就一次,避其公義一役啦。"},{"start":9143.108,"end":9165.579,"text":"好 謝謝那我個人版本的部分我12條是按照這個金管會的版本不過金管會第15條的版本不應該把它類型化因為那是一個過程而已所以我建議是15條的部分第15項的部分第15款的部分把它拿掉我的部分是這樣子那我們現在先請那個金管會這邊說明一下好不好針對委員的這個修正案"},{"start":9170.342,"end":9192.783,"text":"關於不動產就是第12款不動產的定義的部分就是說因為剛剛有提到12款的定義已經有去說一些就是土地、道路、橋樑、碼頭等等還有就是其實我們有一個概括還有與其他具有經濟價值的土地定著物跟它所依附的設施"},{"start":9196.105,"end":9208.492,"text":"對,那針對所依附的設施的部分啊怕大家會有疑慮其實我們是會建議說我們會在我們的條文說明欄再把這個所依附的設施再顯明清楚"},{"start":9208.972,"end":9234.25,"text":"就是我們會在我們的條文說明再去序名說不動產的定義是包括所依附於這個不動產的設施那這相關的設施也是屬於這個不動產投資信託基金可以投資的標的之一所以呢我們會去把它寫成是說如果凡是屬於依附在這個土地或土地定著物上面的設施"},{"start":9235.251,"end":9252.64,"text":"而且是屬於維持不動產營域所必需的資產的話那就是這個可以投資的標的我們是到時候我們會再把我們的條文說明欄再針對這個所依附的設施再更序名清楚一點讓外界能夠理解"},{"start":9254.167,"end":9277.753,"text":"我剛所提的你說在說的這個公共建設下面這些說明列舉的這個部分有哪一項是不能接受的嗎?有沒有哪一項是不能接受的?因為就是說坦白講就是立法的技術有時候寫得清楚各有利弊啦那是不是在後面再加一加等嘛 也可以啊因為其實就是我們有一個其他我們本來的條文就已經有列舉很多公共設施例如什麼道路橋樑"},{"start":9278.933,"end":9287.523,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":9298.015,"end":9323.14,"text":"你已經列了這些,那我們再多列這些是不是才比較明確化嘛,到時候有這個相關的這個...還是委員這邊可以讓我們就是說我們把有一些可能...寫在我們的條文說明欄其實它這個不動產的部分的定義齁那個... 那所以我列這些哪一項是你覺得比較不可能準的,或是可能準你要列在哪裡?"},{"start":9324.071,"end":9339.265,"text":"主長你可能要講一下我們跟不動產條例之間的那個一致性可能要補充說明一下雖然是這個沒錯但是這個是修的是證券的這個這是證券投資信託及顧問法條的修正也不是只有說"},{"start":9340.086,"end":9358.665,"text":"因為他是從另外一個軌道而來我知道知道,你們是增加了不動產這個的部分不表示今天提案的裡頭在裡頭不能增略這些東西這是兩件事嗎?對吧?不是,是因為不動產證券化條例已經是20年前已經有一個格式了那他今天只是從信託型變成基金型所以按照投信投顧法"},{"start":9359.165,"end":9377.288,"text":"所以基本上對不動產已經尚未有一個屋頂在那個地方了就是要有現金流量、不動產相關權利就是說下面itemize有哪些東西可以去做其實如果真的要加第一個49-3有的加一些或者說如果大家不放心說明理由中可以稍微再陳述一下"},{"start":9377.688,"end":9399.543,"text":"所以說如果要調列不好意思跟委員報告如果真的要調列15項其實是比較立法技術上是可能會有些顧慮也不會啦因為你49之3也列過了嘛那我們在這邊列得清楚一點那如果擔心不足的話還可以再加一句話嘛另外就是另外一句話不足的再補進來這個也是可以接受的我跟您報告立法院是讓你們不要太辛苦"},{"start":9400.123,"end":9428.231,"text":"不是列上去問題就解決了我們立法行會議到時候執行會清晰那現在有現金流量才行不是列上去就有問題這是你在審核的時候那是另外一件執行的部分我在立法如果越明確你們執行起來就會越輕鬆我們立法就現在多寫幾句話而已但是以後你們執行就不用解釋一大堆這是真的我一直遇到軍管會的困難就在這裡有時候有些寫太多會越爭議啊那你可以再加一句用你們的專業的技術我想這邊也有專業的說到加一句怎麼樣的你們會比較輕鬆"},{"start":9430.992,"end":9434.296,"text":"張局長,麻煩補充說明,要跟陳委員說明一下,他可能..."},{"start":9443.649,"end":9460.317,"text":"我們是覺得這裡主要講原則性的抓抓得很準的話如果你在土地的互作物的那些東西視為一體你前提是有不動產嘛你後面再加什麼不管你要做綠能什麼東西都涵蓋到你就足以的如果列了很多反而會覺得滿點混淆"},{"start":9462.54,"end":9480.778,"text":"不是那個陳委員我們這個定義是跟不動產、證券化條例延伸而來其實原來的這個律史的最母法是這一本我們待會會討論到所以我們是把這個定義搬過來這邊是一致化的是一致性的我現在提的"},{"start":9481.739,"end":9508.52,"text":"因為在不動產政界條例裡面本來就有這樣的條文你剛剛這個羅委員告訴我他走之前告訴我說他提的那些東西很多業者曾經問你們你們都說不行啊所以才會說很多東西最好把它別廢話是不是另外一個原因不行不是不動產這個定義那加進去有什麼有什麼比較不便利的地方嗎?因為你講法治會的標的就開始混了那個那個"},{"start":9511.998,"end":9514.829,"text":"請內政部、財政部、承政部說明一下"},{"start":9516.447,"end":9544.071,"text":"財政部推動初餐司說明因為13款加進去公共建設雖然很明確可是因為我們初餐法的公共建設有可能會修就是現在有15項對不對我們可能未來初餐法它的公共建設類別是會增修的我們是擔心說把它名列進去未來促進民間參與公共建設法"},{"start":9544.411,"end":9546.992,"text":"他本來就可以只要符合那個條件的全部都可以不論他是不是促餐的範圍"},{"start":9571.721,"end":9599.508,"text":"你列了15項說這些可以不能說錯但第16項、第17項、第18項可不可以因為那些也有可能在促成法裡面沒有規定因為它是一個籠統的規定而且這就是不動產證券化它的這個基金型嘛那現在在研究說哪一些要把它變成明確的一款一款然後都要把它加進去"},{"start":9601.84,"end":9630.042,"text":"這不是原來立法的方式立法方式應該是我立一個範圍只要在這個範圍能够涵掛進來的全部都在裡面所以你提的其實本來就都在裡面那是啊你本來就在裡面所以你叫我們來回答說這個我請問我隨便問一下齁比如說我提的這個第13款的這個第8項這個裡頭的電液綠能設施公用汽車這本來就是在裡頭是嗎還不是可以的嗎我解釋一下我幫他解釋一下等一下他再回答他才是執政的"},{"start":9630.282,"end":9652.955,"text":"我知道我在幫他解釋如果有一個業者就這個電液綠能設施及公用氣體燃料設施把他研究結果認為這是不動產而且可以附加利益讓人家可以來不動產證券的話來投資願意幫你發行那經過主管機關審核通過他就可以發行嘛好那現在請主管就回答有數據中心可以嗎"},{"start":9656.523,"end":9673.99,"text":"例如說數據中心就是可以啊因為就是說數據中心就是他很明確有一個不動產然後再次在上面成立一個數據中心那就是回到我們所說的不管反正就是要一個房子就對了嘛對不對是不動產跟他負責務不動產橋樑數位建設可以嗎新市鎮開發可以嗎負責務啊負責務"},{"start":9686.107,"end":9705.613,"text":"那陳委員這個說明還清楚了吧?這樣子齁,如果沒有我們保留一下好嗎?沒關係,反正還可以協商這條保留那我們那個第5條的部分我們就先請保留我們待會回過來再想,接下來我們第6條25月第6條"},{"start":9714.503,"end":9735.616,"text":"提案在委員的版本、行政院版本都一樣那我們就照行政院版本通過有沒有意見?沒有意見?好來第7條第7條也是版本都雷同那我們如果沒有意見我們就照行政院的版本通過好我們第8條"},{"start":9737.321,"end":9761.318,"text":"也是一樣,那個委員跟行政院版本都一樣,我們就照行政院版本通過沒有意見,好,我們通過第二張張名,不動產投資信託基金第二張之一,不動產投資信託基金好,名稱有沒有意見?好,沒有意見我們照行政院版本通過好,第49條之一"},{"start":9763.052,"end":9767.198,"text":"行政院函及行政院函及行政院函及行政院函及行政院函及"},{"start":9780.325,"end":9804.676,"text":"好,沒有意見來,49條之三先讀委員陳一貞等三題修正動議第49條之三,第一項不動產投資信託基金以投資或運用以下列標的為限且除主管金額另有規定外不得投資於住宅法第三條第一款鎖定住宅一、不動產及公共建設二、不動產及公共建設相關權利三、不動產及公共建設相關有價證券第二項"},{"start":9805.896,"end":9832.19,"text":"不動產投資信託基金,投資於開發行之不動產或不動產相關權利者,以依不動產興建計畫及財務計畫建立控管,就預計興建完成之不動產,予有使用或利用之約定,並可預期興建完成之不動產,據受益者為限。第七項,具首增業、供物資等3字,具均衡行政院提案,宣傳筆。"},{"start":9835.991,"end":9847.49,"text":"關於這個部分我們有幾位委員有所提案那王委員是不是要先說明一下"},{"start":9855.201,"end":9872.208,"text":"我在第19條之三在最主要的部分就是要把經中央目的事業主管機關核准參與之公共建設把它增加說或直轄市縣市政府核准參與之公共建設"},{"start":9874.946,"end":9900.291,"text":"這部分事實上就是呼應一下剛才陳玉珍委員所講的就是我們希望把我們的這些資金能夠導入在我們公共建設相關的投資那除了這裡面比較明確的就是促進民間參與公共建設法所定之公共建設之外另外呢這個第三"},{"start":9902.032,"end":9926.85,"text":"是獎金中央目的事業主管機關核准參與之公共建設我覺得應該把它再擴及到地方政府核准參與的公共建設也應該可以把它納入這點應該沒有什麼疑義吧我請主管機關說明"},{"start":9934.526,"end":9960.093,"text":"這個原則上這次應該是可以參裁的只不過就是因為各委員的版本有很多個那就是目前看起來就是修正動議一就是各委員的版本有把針對這些開發型不動產的定義因為為了保留彈性所以有把它刪除授權執法去訂定所以我們這邊就是目前是"},{"start":9961.253,"end":9979.433,"text":"建議可不可以採說因為其實定在這裡各有利弊啦寫得很明確那像有一些可能因為吐餐法第九條又有一些新的規定可能這裡會來不及修所以變成本來就會有限制到所以我們是建議說是不是授權執法再去"},{"start":9979.873,"end":9990.727,"text":"處長剛剛是對王宏威委員說直轄市政府或是縣市政府核准的公共建設也要放到這裡面來而不是只有中央政府核准的公共建設獨佔針對這一點你們有什麼意見"},{"start":9995.734,"end":10012.352,"text":"我跟黃委員說明一下我的提案當中其實都已經內涵在裡頭了我的修正動議裡頭都已經有包括您的意見已經都放在這裡頭修正一的部分也就是把它把中央政府這個框架都已經把它打破了啦都已經拿掉了"},{"start":10014.259,"end":10040.171,"text":"因為您的那個修正案還沒出來之前我先有版本嘛,我有先跟金管會有先行溝通溝通的部分呢,對,內涵在你地方政府都有把中央的部分都拿掉了是不是照我的版本當中拿...不是,你不用再多列舉啊就是說基本上沒有那個限制啦麻煩各位看一下我的那個49條之3的那個修正動議"},{"start":10044.61,"end":10050.413,"text":"四十九條之三。看一下。那個其實都已經內涵餘了。四十九條之三的部分有沒有。"},{"start":10072.52,"end":10073.14,"text":"吳委員是不是"},{"start":10106.869,"end":10122.687,"text":"但是呢你這邊講第一項不動產投資信託基金投資範圍及限制基金的運用範圍都有主管機關定之所以主管機關又回到中央主管機關囉"},{"start":10125.92,"end":10134.888,"text":"指法也會寫齁沒有那個王委員待會請那個金管會補充說明齁我先讓所有提案委員都講一遍好不好那吳立華委員請"},{"start":10136.752,"end":10161.725,"text":"我這邊49條之三主要是也是為了增加誘因因為目前第二項是規定開發型的瑞慈要領到建造之後才能夠動用基金的款項所以在實務運作上我覺得會有些問題像是有一些地方政府他會要求說要把款項要打到銀行帳戶上才能夠發建造"},{"start":10163.686,"end":10178.558,"text":"會跟這一條互相抵觸所以郭國文委員的版本他是有開放到意向書所以我是很支持但是我覺得有一些情況還是會出現小問題例如說要興建養老村想要自己經營"},{"start":10179.759,"end":10201.394,"text":"就不會有那個潛在陳書的長照機構所以我是多加了幾個字或利用就是說就預計新建完成之不動產已有使用或利用之約定並可預期新建完成之不動產據收益者為限他想說讓實務運作能夠比較順暢"},{"start":10207.263,"end":10226.638,"text":"賴委員還有王世堅委員我們先請賴委員好不好我想這個針對的就是提出的修正動議來做一個補充那就是促參法就是我們知道就是說在111年12月他已經徵定了那個主辦機關他在公共建設的營運期間"},{"start":10227.699,"end":10250.497,"text":"有常取得其公共服務的全部或一部分的有形的PPP的一個模式那這一次草案是針對的開發型的條件那我主張是採取一個沿著限制列那個例外的一個開放的一個模式但是並沒有將全數這個有常形的這個PPP納入那當然我是考慮"},{"start":10251.338,"end":10258.361,"text":"考慮到政府有償取得公共服務案件在營運期間有穩定營業收益提案納入《投信法》規定讓不動產投資信託基金可以投資或應用在政府有償取得公共服務案件"},{"start":10276.63,"end":10278.851,"text":"3案：立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":10299.179,"end":10303.341,"text":"負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負�"},{"start":10320.61,"end":10335.548,"text":"提供給投資人來審議所以我是建議就是說增加監察人跟定期召開受益人的一個會議那是不是這樣的一個制度可以保障受益人的一個權益那在針對的就是那個"},{"start":10336.349,"end":10363.107,"text":"我們49條之三明文僅明文就是排除住宅法的第三條第一項的住宅那可是他沒有排除第二款的社會住宅這個也是我所做的一個建議其實基本上就是說我覺得應該要包含社會住宅在這裡面就是說大家知道社會住宅普遍在這個地方在我們當今的一個社會裡頭那他其實是"},{"start":10363.968,"end":10365.549,"text":"等2案：一、繼續審查《證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文》等2案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":10380.561,"end":10397.597,"text":"好 謝謝那個代委員那個剛剛那個代委員的部分喔待會請那個金管會一併說明齁那這個這一條有意見的包括王世堅委員還有陳玉珍委員不知道有沒有其他委員齁王宏威委員好我們就13位委員齁來王世堅委員請"},{"start":10399.519,"end":10427.998,"text":"謝謝主席主席我主要都要呼應賴委員剛剛所提的我先簡單講他剛剛提到的就是說我覺得第一點他提到的第一點我們可以參酌公司法也就是公司法有關股東會的規定要求證券投資信託事業每年召開受益人會議這個可以比照公司法這就是剛才賴委員提到的第一條這樣才能有效的保障"},{"start":10428.718,"end":10450.435,"text":"受益人他們的權益好那我回到49條之3齁我首先要針對社會住宅我請問金管會金管會一直對外解釋說不適用社會住宅啦但是我們多數委員都認為社會住宅就是公共建設的一環啊"},{"start":10451.756,"end":10463.679,"text":"所以沒有限制的必要嘛而且49條之3他是限制不得投資住宅法第三條第一款之住宅"},{"start":10464.943,"end":10488.494,"text":"但社會住宅是在這個同樣這個條款的第二款所以文藝上本來就沒受到限制所以我今天請金管委員你解釋清楚到底為什麼啦你們獨排社會住宅第二點也是剛才賴委員有提到的因為這幾年來我們到了這幾年來"},{"start":10491.776,"end":10517.178,"text":"受險業投入公共建設這個資金雪崩式下滑像到去年為止他只投入一百零幾億而已那這個是只佔他可以運用資金的百分之零點零三的天啊那所以我們認為應該修正鼓勵信託鼓勵修正投信來"},{"start":10519.768,"end":10539.342,"text":"發行公共建設的REITs也就是說擴大適用範圍擴大這個適用範圍就是對於有償提供公共建設之促瞻案件哪一些是有償提供公共建設比如說民間他先蓋好營運然後再由政府編列預算來購買的服務"},{"start":10543.16,"end":10552.246,"text":"例如說社會住宅啊社會住宅興建以後未來這弱勢者、臨場者居住付費的部分"},{"start":10553.462,"end":10575.813,"text":"可以部分由政府編列預算來支應那還有長照機構也是啊長照也是可以比照這個概念啦所以某一些是具有急迫性的公共建設可以比照可以透過這個模式來辦理那透過這個模式辦理會比我們政府自己"},{"start":10576.733,"end":10580.843,"text":"而自己來建設還更有效益嘛我們讓民間來參與讓民間來參與那另外就是說"},{"start":10588.413,"end":10608.484,"text":"其實公共建設非自償部分補貼他需要的貸款利息或者營運績效給予補貼有這個必要性而且這個性質跟提供資金取得股份的投資其實不相同沒有道德風險可言"},{"start":10609.665,"end":10629.797,"text":"所以基於以上這幾點我希望這一次49條之3的修正我們能夠更跨出一步而且我希望聽管會你現在就答覆我們為什麼社會住宅硬要被你排除社會住宅本身就是一個重要的公共建設不是這樣嗎?"},{"start":10632.838,"end":10656.345,"text":"謝謝王委員購買公共服務或受益人憑證的頻率稍後一併說明我們把其他委員一起處理王宏偉委員還有陳一貞委員馬上馬上我想請問一下就如果按照那個我們召委所做的第49條之3的這個修正動議的話那之前因為我剛才一直想說服陳一貞委員不要在前面的條文裡面加上公共建設"},{"start":10657.165,"end":10680.214,"text":"可是這一部分因為原來的第49條之三講得非常清楚就剛才大家非常關心的只要符合這個促參法裡面的公共建設都可以涵蓋在內可是這個條文的話就被修掉了所以我覺得可能會對我們幾位委員關心的就是說希望能夠涵蓋公共建設的部分這個部分就沒有明確的規定了這個是我個人覺得這個疑慮"},{"start":10685.056,"end":10689.702,"text":"另外就是說如果說我們的第一項第二項"},{"start":10696.943,"end":10718.559,"text":"第三項就是說有關於這個相關權利以就不動產興建計劃及財務計劃以建立控管就預計興建完成之不動產已有使用約定並可預期興建完成之不動產具收益者為限那我覺得這個部分可能在條文上我覺得太過籠統"},{"start":10720.02,"end":10734.286,"text":"因為這個財務計畫什麼叫做有沒有建立控管還有就是說它是有一個使用約定預期它可以有巨收益但因為我們我覺得這個部分我會感覺上我覺得好像太過籠統沒有說一個很具體的一個相關的這個定義以上"},{"start":10742.669,"end":10754.904,"text":"我比較關心是公共建設的部分啦,謝謝其實原來公共建設是把公共建設的部分的限制把它排除啦,主要由於,我是跟你說明一下而已,待會再說明,那陳玉珍、陳委員我現在請金管會說明總體說明嘛,像說我說的跟這個王思堅委員齁,這個"},{"start":10761.231,"end":10782.518,"text":"邏輯是一樣的,還有剛剛有一項是跟吳亦華委員的提案是一樣的就是說第一個如果說不把這些東西弄很明確的話我們連在這邊討論修法的時候都有這麼多可能有不一樣的見解你們剛剛說的跟後來我們列的可能執行起來都不一樣,如果不列明確的話我想在執行法律上會造成公務機關的困擾"},{"start":10785.34,"end":10789.003,"text":"其中有一項是要取得建造才可以動用該基金的款項我覺得這個規定大幅降低了開發階段良好投資標的參與證券化的誘因"},{"start":10805.274,"end":10820.485,"text":"我的提案是讓令融司跟五六法委一樣,就是該開發者是否已依不動產信件計畫相關的,是不是有可預期的財務回收可完成的這個項目的資金計畫安排作為一個基本的規範,所以修正如上。"},{"start":10821.286,"end":10838.458,"text":"好 謝謝陳秉珍委員我想補充說明一下剛剛王副委員的這個疑慮那麻煩看一下那個本席修正動議頭是那個說明事項的第三我主要是朝放寬的方向進行可以投入公共建設然後為限制開發不動產的這個投資範圍"},{"start":10844.802,"end":10863.324,"text":"只限於都市更新跟危老建設的部分也就是讓公共建設的標的可以增加一些開發中的這個行為然後讓它增加那個可能性把這個標的的可能性放大也就是讓原來那個我們行政院版本相對是比較限縮的然後把它放寬"},{"start":10864.365,"end":10877.489,"text":"主要的部分也是為了公共建設其實本席會提這個也是為了公共建設跟大家的原因都相同我們是請金管會來做一個補充說明做一個整體回答包括剛剛王委員、陳委員、兩位王委員還有賴委員等"},{"start":10879.4,"end":10904.966,"text":"那這邊補充說明一下就是委員這邊關切說到底哪些標的可以作為這個不動產證券化投資信託基金的標的那其實我們的這一條的條文說明就已經寫得很清楚就是只要具有穩定收入的不動產例如什麼數據中心然後醫療保健大樓、公共建設長照服務機構、公共建設、風力發電、太陽能電廠等"},{"start":10907.347,"end":10916.136,"text":"就是我們的條文說明都把這相關的內容寫明清楚了那至於就是說因為我們本來我們49之3的原提案的條文針對這個不動產跟開發階段開發型不動產的定義我們本來是參考不動產證券化條例的規範"},{"start":10927.927,"end":10945.119,"text":"及其中一條是屬於開發型的不動產例如是公共建設、要促參法的公共建設或者是要督根為老的這些都明訂進去。那後來我們也是考量說如果要更有彈性去做一些放寬的話所以我們也是"},{"start":10946.263,"end":10971.612,"text":"後來也是贊成把它調整成是不是就是說我們寫成是一個概括性的一些內容然後授權我們的執法再去明定來根據就是可能一些公共建設可能其他的法令規範可能會不斷的調整然後我們可以在我們的執法裡面去機動的去根據這個狀況去做調整那至於委員剛剛有提到"},{"start":10972.712,"end":10992.265,"text":"有關於社會住宅的部分就是在我們49之三第一項的序文的確是有規定說不可以投資於住宅法第三條第一款的住宅那時候所說的住宅的確是有包括不可以投資社會住宅那時候的原因是為了"},{"start":10993.526,"end":11012.455,"text":"顯示政府打房的決心對那時候主要是這個考量那當時的確也知道說社會住宅的性質跟一般的住宅的確是有不一樣的啦那那時候但是就是我們行政院板還是說先我們要顯示我們打房的決心所以就是先"},{"start":11013.379,"end":11042.429,"text":"直接就是限制只要是住宅法的住宅都是不可以的那至於委員有提到說本來我們的行政院版的第二項說要拿到證照才可以動用這個資金的這個部分我們也認同說委員的建議所以我們後來也是認同這部分可以把它刪除就是把比較細節的規範留待到執法去規定讓這整個法更有彈性就是不要在這裡明定啦因為可能到時候"},{"start":11043.169,"end":11067.914,"text":"可能執法去規定有一些細節的是稍微具有彈性一點但是剛才王世堅委員的那個看法他的疑問跟我的疑問是一樣的我們這個社會住宅並不是住宅法第三條的第一款第三條第一款是就是一般居住住宅但是社會住宅是在第二款裡面所以你們怎麼可以自己擴張解釋呢?是不是?"},{"start":11072.565,"end":11094.64,"text":"主長請補充說明其實那時候我們是有去跟內政部確認過的內政部說明一下這次住宅屬於住宅法第三條第一款鎖定之住宅嗎?內政部代表接內政部麥克風"},{"start":11102.166,"end":11124.943,"text":"報告委員那因為我們那個住宅法第三條的那個用語的定義那我們的住宅是指就是第三條第一款住宅是指供居住使用並具備門牌之合法建築物那我們第二款的社會住宅的定義是只是在把它在特別針對住宅在講說它是指由政府興辦或獎勵民間興辦專供出租之用之住宅"},{"start":11129.807,"end":11131.228,"text":"及其必要附屬設施"},{"start":11160.868,"end":11182.391,"text":"您是說含在裡頭就對了?像經管會這樣組長說的。所以這可見我們在修法過程一定要把很多東西列得更清楚。不過你們內部的解釋跟我們的理解可能都還有點不一樣。我們修法一定要列得更清楚。而且你們這樣的有些規定,像這個什麼已有穩定收入,那影響在這個開發階段的時候就怎麼樣來成立人家可以資金的投入。"},{"start":11183.771,"end":11205.2,"text":"陳委員跟你說明一下因為你如果要用所有都要正面表列免不了都會有瓜一肉萬的那種情況那有些是在執法或者是辦法以頭來做說明會比較妥適一點不然的話我們六法選出可能會很糟這個我是理解但是光這很承認我們的認知跟他心想沒有辦法全部都放在某法當中執行上會很辛苦不要讓執法者這麼辛苦"},{"start":11207.862,"end":11209.484,"text":"財政委員林楚茵等16人擬具:「證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":11229.369,"end":11244.417,"text":"那有關於收益人會議的部分因為到時候我們的執法也會去參考現在信託架構REIT的規範因為現在信託架構REIT是每3年開一次那我們的執法會去參考信託架構的REIT"},{"start":11247.246,"end":11259.023,"text":"對,因為有一些規定我們會定在我們的執法我們母法定了之後我們執法我們還會有一個受益人會議的準則然後到時候就會去參考現代的規範再去做進一步的規定"},{"start":11259.96,"end":11277.862,"text":"好,請吳委員第一次發言然後接下來王王委員我提醒一下因為現在是有信託型跟基金型那你信託型原來就是照信託的三年一次基金型應該要比照基金的管理模式比較適當"},{"start":11279.84,"end":11306.746,"text":"包括在發行過程中的公式、公信、揭露等等這些都要詳盡的規範當然沒有辦法在這個文法裡面做這麼詳細的規範但是基金型的那一部分當然就應該是類似基金這樣子類似證券交易這樣的概念是比較接近的所以我是在這邊提醒一下另外可以發行的門檻"},{"start":11308.257,"end":11329.802,"text":"可能要規定一下你不是不是說沒有門檻每一個人怎麼樣的人就可以來發行不是這樣那一定要有一個很完備的這些類似證券交易市場上面這樣子的街市這樣子有一定的條件的人才有資格去發行這個東西所以大家不要"},{"start":11330.442,"end":11331.903,"text":"原來行政院版第49條之三第二項很明確的說不動產"},{"start":11351.289,"end":11374.498,"text":"就是不動產信託基金投資於開發型的不動產或不動產相關權利時如需取得建造者應該與該不動產或不動產相關權利領得建造後使得動用該基金款項這個是有一個等於說有一個保險的措施就是說你必須先取得建造"},{"start":11376.619,"end":11381.081,"text":"我們如果回到剛才我們昭偉所講的這個他的修正動議他的第三項我覺得這個就跟原來我們的第二項是有所抵觸的那當然剛才組長的意思說沒有關係我們未來在執法裡面去做訂定"},{"start":11394.907,"end":11420.162,"text":"可是如果今天改為我們現在的修正動議通過的話那就你又如何再說你在執法裡面再去加說未來你是屬於這種開發型的就是你必須要取得建造者你必須要取得建造之後才能夠去動用該基金這個也是為基金做一個大家做一個就等於說做一個安全措施"},{"start":11421.403,"end":11444.385,"text":"那所以你剛才所講的沒有辦法解除這樣的疑慮因為這個是對未來基金對你們這個行政院本來是有一個很大很大的變動你未來如何在執法裡面再把這個保全措施再把它放進去好謝謝王國文委員待會兒牽扯到本期的提案我再說分明一下那請王世堅委員"},{"start":11447.813,"end":11464.819,"text":"謝謝朝鮮我覺得剛才金管會的解釋跟目前部這個解釋我只能八個字講莫名其妙雞同鴨講啦第一點我請人叫黃天牧主委你來答覆你答覆說到底社會住宅"},{"start":11466.098,"end":11480.357,"text":"是不是應該是公共建設的一環吶這跟打房無關怎麼會把打房扯上第二條剛才這位女士她的回答她說當時是為了配合政府打房的政策好啦"},{"start":11481.238,"end":11495.145,"text":"3案：立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期財政委員會第12期�"},{"start":11500.051,"end":11517.211,"text":"那這個本來我們就應該擴大讓這些資金我們引進他可以來參與所以我希望我希望黃主委你來回答這個問題不要再推給下面來回答好不好我跟委員報告"},{"start":11520.208,"end":11549.508,"text":"今天為什麼有交易所、兩個交易所、購買中心、吉寶都要來就是說這個發行把一個有穩定現金流量的不同的不動產集合在一起切割成為小的證券讓一般小額投資人可以投資然後最後到交易市場去交易這中間就是第一個它要有未來商業化有擴力的可能性讓小額投資人可以定期分到這些股利"},{"start":11550.388,"end":11574.362,"text":"第二就是說小額投資人的交易的保護很重要所以不是所有的案子都被期待說他都可以最後變成一個所謂的基金型的不動產證券化的東西他要能夠賺錢然後賺錢至於也要像保護證券投資人一樣要保護投資人所以為什麼我們的證券市場這些主管都來了那回到王偉源的槌尋"},{"start":11575.743,"end":11591.868,"text":"其實我們當初內政部是有提到一些把這下面的資產包括住宅、社會住宅可是我想各位都很清楚現在不論朝野對於穩定房價讓年輕人買到合理的這個房子都是大家的一個期待"},{"start":11592.728,"end":11608.797,"text":"如果說我們今天開了一個資金的來源投資商品來源是可以去買這個所謂的住宅或是社會住宅先不論說住宅、社會住宅是不是一定都可以構成會賺錢的標的這個在社會觀感上好像就覺得我們又領悟了一個"},{"start":11609.677,"end":11610.478,"text":"負責負責負責負責負責負責"},{"start":11632.374,"end":11654.018,"text":"投入社會住宅反而可以穩定房價社會住宅就是可以幫助房價的東西社會住宅它的租金收入它一定是有社會的討論但是反而是可以穩定房價不是社會住宅的收益是來自於租金的調高你要考慮到這一點那資本過度集中住宅只會讓房價上漲那個請黃宣山委員不好意思第一次發言不好意思"},{"start":11658.78,"end":11679.432,"text":"主委我想這個法條因為看你們的法條是漏漏燈那我贊成郭國文委員他的修正版本就是很多東西授權你執法但是如果剛剛就像大家講的如果要保障所謂建造的部分你的執法裡面會承諾會納入進去的話那我們可能就要支持比較簡略的版本"},{"start":11680.112,"end":11706.08,"text":"對於社宅的部分我同意它是租金是它的收益來源但是我們現在住宅法還有相關的內政會的政策應該是鼓勵多元興建取得社會住宅那多元取得裡面我們甚至還給它減稅免稅所以表示這是我們鼓勵各方不管是公家或者是民間都應該要投入這個市場來做那只是說在這上面你們能不能用"},{"start":11706.86,"end":11727.88,"text":"另外的獎勵措施然後讓他能夠進到律師的機會但是他又可以得到社宅的效果我講可能要去做平衡包括在民眾黨上一任有提出的版本裡面其實有所謂增值稅的減免或者是相關如果他投入這個行列的話我覺得應該是納入你們的參考而不是完全把社宅排除在外"},{"start":11728.32,"end":11728.52,"text":"王世堅委員"},{"start":11741.689,"end":11765.964,"text":"黃主委,你剛剛講的,你說又怕社會住宅它利潤這樣子不夠可是我們就有提說有常提供公共建設是促瞻案件納入啊這些就是說民間先蓋好先營運之後由政府編的預算來購買這些啊那怎麼你一下子又說不夠但是我們說把這些納入嘛"},{"start":11766.98,"end":11768.962,"text":"三案、四案、五案及六條之一條文"},{"start":11788.222,"end":11805.271,"text":"長蝶符這些來分析嘛你這些分析都沒有之下你貿然就說要配合政府打房的政策那就要壓抑社會住宅可是另外一方面各地方政府連我們中央政府都花那麼多力氣找土地、找資金來蓋社會住宅"},{"start":11805.851,"end":11831.991,"text":"而如此不可得之下我們開放REIT來投資這是正確的事所以主委你至少至少你再正面的再回答一下好不好再來你520畢業照之後你是最大的金控公司某案生的董事長欸你也是要面對這個問題啊社會住宅的問題那個黃主委稍等一下請委員講完再說不好意思那請委員"},{"start":11835.253,"end":11842.313,"text":"我想今天是談不動產證券化大家都要用相同的標準如果說"},{"start":11843.769,"end":11867.243,"text":"提到因為社會住宅還是解決居住的問題所以如果租金比較低政府還要補貼那將來還要延伸成你參加REITS然後政府還要補貼REITS我覺得這樣子就已經延伸了太多了我不能夠同意贊成這樣的做法所以說既然今天是這是一個資本市場的大事要把不動產在"},{"start":11869.365,"end":11879.776,"text":"正確化用基金的模式在交易市場上交易是每天都在變動交易的所以他當然要考慮的事情是要很多的那"},{"start":11881.291,"end":11908.952,"text":"我也建議我們的同仁不要再用打房我們是抑制炒房我們是抑制炒房我們是打炒房我們不是在打房那越多的資金投入在居住住宅的興建到底會產生什麼的效果這個不見得大家的意見一致金管會也好這個內政部也好跟我們的看法也不見得一致那當初因為"},{"start":11910.554,"end":11933.868,"text":"這個法案、這個草案其實是第十屆立委最後的一年就已經在談了當初一開始大家的共識當然有一些委員現在已經不在財政委員會有一些委員是新來的當初的共識就是住宅不予納入配合政府議制房價炒作的方式不讓住宅進到RIS這裡面來"},{"start":11935.269,"end":11950.342,"text":"當初這個講法是這樣那當然說你如果說新來的委員堅持說我這個社會住宅一定要放進去那這個是可以討論的事情但是剛剛主委只是把當初從有歷史因素過程中所展現的"},{"start":11952.639,"end":11971.565,"text":"最後我還是要再重複強調一次,REITS的交易就是歸REITS的交易不要再把其他對社會政策上面需要政府給予的補貼或是給予的投資要把它送到REITS裡面來,那這樣太複雜了我以後買一個投資人去買REITS的時候我要考慮說這個政府以後會不會補貼?這個政府以後是不是不補貼?"},{"start":11975.646,"end":11991.654,"text":"我覺得這個就已經超過不動產證券的話我們今天可以討論的範圍這是我的建議 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員我相信大家對社會住宅都非常的關心包括黃山安委員提到社會住宅多元化本席也非常贊同那對資金的來源其實上一次我們在專題報告的時候"},{"start":11993.396,"end":12010.638,"text":"內政部駐都中心還有包括當時的市長都已經強調說接下來要發行債券或者已經有連帶的金額所以他資金的來源一個來說就我的理解其實已經有一定的一個方法了其實不一定要透過這個管道啦我跟大家說明一下至於說王洪瑋剛剛提到有關那個建造的部分"},{"start":12011.098,"end":12036.832,"text":"因為一般如果都跟拿到建造的話其實他就不需要資金了啦我是主要是這樣的所以說有一些相會看起來是保險但是反而是限制的條款我建議把它拿掉的原因是這樣子跟著補充說明那接著我們請那個主委金管會做一個統一的回答謝謝是不是建議這個條文還是依照那個剛郭委員他這邊有收斂的那個修的那個條文修正的條文通過就可以"},{"start":12042.631,"end":12063.296,"text":"這個他的修正動議對你這原條文原行政院版本是有非常非常大的一個修正所以你支持嗎?你同意嗎?建造的部分呢?建造部分在執法上面可以去做處理所以剛才吳委員有關心過有的程序上不能先拿證照那這樣會影響對有的程序不一樣"},{"start":12066.608,"end":12085.163,"text":"因為你如果按照這樣的做法可是你先不是只有都更你還有其他的部分那如果可以沒有建造就可以動用這個基金那請問一下我們對這個投資人的保護措施在哪裡而且你知道都更裡面很多"},{"start":12085.963,"end":12101.671,"text":"建設公司換了又換、換了又換。一個都更案換三、四家建設公司常有的事情啊。那第一家建設公司拿到瑞慈,那第二家建設公司呢?對啊,所以你們這個一放放十萬八千里喔。"},{"start":12104.388,"end":12130.445,"text":"我再補充說明一點點大家把它想像比較接近證券交易今天不是說這樣子就通通可以一股腦都湧進來發行機關那有門檻的嘛你發行機關你對這個個案你要審嘛你將來對這個東西被負責任的我現在舉個例子我某一家證券公司然後我拿了一個垃圾東西然後就來上市來騙騙這個納稅騙這個投資者的錢"},{"start":12133.647,"end":12162.201,"text":"那他不用負責任嗎?所以我是說你不要把他想像說這個法律是定的時候任何阿薩布魯的東西都可以來不是這樣啦你有一個發行的門檻啊有發行機關這些發行機關還是經過經管會審查核可才能有權利來發行欸所以我是覺得那一些東西是可能你考慮的是後段我簡單這樣講如果我今天是發行機關你今天拿一個都更案結果都沒有任何建造"},{"start":12163.168,"end":12163.869,"text":"請審議、本院委員郭國文等16人擬具"},{"start":12188.49,"end":12207.622,"text":"我只補充一句話很多我們可以界定是垃圾是什麼是沒有建造阿尼來的可是社會住宅絕對不是什麼亂七八糟的東西社會住宅是政府首要的住宅政策之一"},{"start":12208.823,"end":12231.326,"text":"所以我希望說能夠把現在既然要REACH要這樣發行我們鼓勵這些資金來參與了必其功於一役把最重要的、社會最關注的一般買不起房屋的絕大多數生斗小民他們的唯一的期望的社會住宅可以擴大、能夠去"},{"start":12232.347,"end":12240.173,"text":"新建,那這個願望能夠引進更多資金來達成。謝謝。那個行政部門有補充說明的嗎?麻煩。"},{"start":12245.226,"end":12266.88,"text":"財政部推動促餐室這邊法研有關社會住宅的一個部分社會住宅已經列入我們促餐法的一個社會福利設施裡面那對照目前行政院的版本的49條這個第三項的第二款裡面也有提到說是促進民間參與公共建設法所定的公共建設"},{"start":12267.941,"end":12288.811,"text":"所以這裏面是……所以購買服務已經可以了,不購買公共服務已經包含在裏頭了嗎?另外有關回應剛剛賴委員跟王世堅委員提到的就是復參法第9條之一就是政府有償購買公共建設服務的部分我們也是同意說加入這個第6項的一個部分"},{"start":12289.811,"end":12299.761,"text":"加入第6項,因為第6項現在只有初三法29條的部分,那麼建議就是再加上一個第9條之一有程序的公共服務建設的部分。"},{"start":12303.819,"end":12322.207,"text":"財政部庭做一個比較完整的說明,大家可以理解了嗎?所以更證明本席所提的49條之3的這個修正我加了一個出主管機關另有規定外然後再把供應鏈寫進來,更重要啦才不會有這些爭論啦我的修正這樣不是更明確嗎?那個主管機關另有規定,這主管機關也有訂定嗎?更明確啊"},{"start":12324.288,"end":12324.588,"text":"財政委員會長"},{"start":12337.867,"end":12366.068,"text":"可以再繼續溝通一下,事緩則遠好尊重各位的意見那我們這一個因為購買公共服務已經都包含在裡頭他已經在跟你說明啊可是大部分的一律我已經處理了大家還是要保留沒有喔"},{"start":12371.008,"end":12387.104,"text":"黃慧媛我再確認一下他剛剛講的意思是說我們大家講的涉責他其實已經在出差裡面也在這個範圍裡面就沒有爭議了嘛所以不用再吵了嘛對啊就可以往前走啦都已經有啦對那另外就是我是覺得如果"},{"start":12387.825,"end":12388.926,"text":"財政部還有要說明的嗎?還是其他委員還有意見嗎?財政部要做..."},{"start":12404.938,"end":12426.103,"text":"最後一個意見啦剛才黃天牧主委的講法就應稱我講的嘛他一開始就是把社會住宅排除在外嘛剛才他的說明也是還好這位小姐他有翻出這些典章規範他是說他的講法等於打臉的黃天牧主委的講法喔那內政部那大家聽清清楚好不好那難道大家開會剛剛講了一場誤會的一場嗎"},{"start":12432.745,"end":12458.561,"text":"就算是互惠今天把話講清楚好不好我動不動講話都要暗喻這個不就證明本來條文一定要列清楚一點嗎如果不列清楚一點大家就會有...我的意思就是這些討論是有意義的有意義有意義有意義有意義真的有意義社會住宅列在裡面不要說什麼互惠一間黃天牧主委當初是否定啊方法的說明也是否定啊我們請財政部蘇貞茲再做一個完整的補充說明"},{"start":12460.07,"end":12478.647,"text":"我可不可以更正一下我的說法因為我們是看到說目前第三項裡面有就是促進民間參與公共建設法所稱的公共建設那想要請問一下說這個到底有沒有抵觸第一項的那個部分可不可以再做相關的一些釐清"},{"start":12480.762,"end":12500.146,"text":"就是第三項第二款的部分是跟目前第一項的部分到底有沒有一些不相同的一個部分這個我們本來就是都是要符合第一項的規定你不要先到那個院板那邊去好不好來來來"},{"start":12507.591,"end":12532.832,"text":"就是要回歸到第49條之三的第一項啦因為第一項的序文已經明定說不能投資住宅法第三條第一項第一款所稱的住宅嘛所以這個是大前提那您剛剛提的是後面幾項所以還是要符合第一項序文那個大前提啦所以那個因為社會住宅也是住宅的一種所以就不能投資這樣子就是不能投資啦"},{"start":12533.593,"end":12541.097,"text":"如果照現在的法律行政變版就是不能投資啊?財政部的認知好像跟金管會的一個看法有所差距我剛剛解釋過當然這裡面有歷史因素有的人那時候不在這個委員會"},{"start":12560.633,"end":12588.541,"text":"當初提出這個草案是在第10屆立委的第4年嘛那因為時間後來沒有充足或是大家還有一些疑慮所以跨了屆、屆期不連續這次又再提出來當初一開始提案的時候執政黨、民進黨的黨團就堅持我們不要讓太多的資金流入住宅的興建為了抑制草房這個目的所以一開始"},{"start":12589.468,"end":12600.355,"text":"他就講不能投資住宅嘛當然商用不動產是商用不動產住宅是住宅就自由界的兩種分類所以草案裡面是沒有社會住宅的"},{"start":12601.689,"end":12619.743,"text":"至於今天立法新來的委員認為非要把社會出來放進來不可那沒有關係那就是跟行政院原來的版本不同嘛那有爭議大家意見不一致那就留待協商這條就保留啊那既然大家意見這麼多我們這條就保留協商接下來"},{"start":12637.913,"end":12638.274,"text":"49條之五"},{"start":12654.96,"end":12675.927,"text":"王侯有修正嗎?來跟大家說明一下這主要是在向金融機構辦理借款的部分那因為大家都知道我們現在這個很多的金控它既有證券也有銀行所以如果我們我再把這個行政院版本裡面就是以基金專戶名義"},{"start":12677.768,"end":12699.377,"text":"向這個金融機構辦理借款前面我加了一個向非利害關係人之金融機構辦理借款也就是說不要變成比如說如果今天是那個比如說元大證券他是那個他是這個基金保管機構然後呢他又向元大銀行去借錢"},{"start":12700.297,"end":12723.655,"text":"這變成都是在同一個集團裡面去做這個融資那所以我在這邊加了一個像非利害關係人之金融機構辦理借款這應該可以吧 對不對因為那麼多銀行啊如果你這是一個很好的基金你應該都可以跟其他銀行也可以借到錢各位委員報告這個我們在銀行法裡面它是有規範的"},{"start":12728.168,"end":12742.722,"text":"在我們《銀行法》的33條就有明文歸問它對利害關係人之間迴避問題所以你這邊再規範的話就等同重複了其他條文已經有所規範了就是了嘛《銀行法》第33條是不是那來請銀行局局長、總局長"},{"start":12744.302,"end":12767.986,"text":"報告委員其實就是利害關係員的借款不是不行是要有一些必須他要拿擔保品、持住擔保品還要經過一定的程序所以這個部分的話如果他要是跟利害關係員借款的時候他就只要就是一切按照銀行法的規範辦理不是禁止就只是要按照銀行法的管理"},{"start":12774.441,"end":12777.023,"text":"三案、四案、五案、六案、七案等"},{"start":12788.198,"end":12816.849,"text":"蠻廣泛的令函巴每一種交易行為受信跟其他交易都有去列舉出來所以這個部分我覺得就是讓銀行局現在的規定去處理就是讓這些有利害關係的交易是透明化而條件為大家所支息這樣就不會有所謂的財務納購的問題我想是不是跟各位委員這樣報告好 謝謝在這邊加一個就是讓他不要向利害關係的人借款可以嗎"},{"start":12820.333,"end":12846.361,"text":"現在的規定是可以啦只是說要有一定的程序還有不得優於其他的這個獸性的對象這樣就可以了所以不洗的話不是就跟現在提我這個加的是比較比較比較嚴格一點就是讓他變成說不要變成通通都是在一個一個同樣一個集團裡面"},{"start":12853.182,"end":12876.629,"text":"在你們那個有什麼摯愛難行的地方嗎?這是跟一般的我們對於關係人教育的體力是不太一樣啦我們不會排除他去跟關係人教育只是要求他一定符合特定的條件而且這個特定條件是相對來講比較高的甚至不能夠因為你是關係人給他特殊的優惠待遇重點在這個地方所以不會有大家關心的這種圖利自己的問題"},{"start":12877.729,"end":12880.59,"text":"所以你認為在銀行法第33條裡面就可以規範?第三條相關的行政命令已經有列舉補充資料給文委員好不好然後我們另外一個委員還有提案吳委員來請"},{"start":12907.03,"end":12925.156,"text":"我這一項是因為看到日本、香港、新加坡這些國家他們都是允許投資信託基金來辦理借款而且可以直接或間接的透過持有不動產的特殊目的工具SPV做借款或發行債券籌資"},{"start":12926.596,"end":12954.403,"text":"所以我才會在第一項這邊就是增加這個或以持有標的之特殊目的工具辦理借款因為經營不動產投資信託業務他所需要的資金很龐大我們是看到這邊只有受益人資金參與怕有所不足所以我就參考不動產證券化條例第19條第一項以及香港、新加坡這些國家的規定"},{"start":12955.103,"end":12980.215,"text":"在這邊定定增加這個文字上那請說明因為我們的投信投顧法的修法草案跟不動產證券化條例的有一點不一樣因為不動產證券化條例它有針對特殊目的公司或特殊目的信託一開始就去定義但是因為我們是基金架構的REITs我們並沒有針對這個特殊目的工具特別去定義"},{"start":12982.597,"end":12999.532,"text":"對,那我們也有觀察到國外的規定因為國外他會成立一個特殊目的工具可能是因為他基金架構本身沒有辦法去持有那個不動產所以他在投資國外標的的時候有可能需要成立一個特殊目的的公司間接去持有那個海外的不動產這種狀況"},{"start":13002.475,"end":13022.989,"text":"如果是這種狀況的話或許需要以那個為借款的標定那我們是建議說將來我們可以在授權的執法的部分去針對這種太陽去定啦因為就是在某法的階段我們這邊都沒有提到一個特殊目的工具這樣會針對我們整個的法治架構反而複雜化"},{"start":13024.79,"end":13052.898,"text":"我怕一般在看這個條文的人不清楚說這個基金架構REIT跟特殊目的工具之間的關聯性那我們是希望說執法的話我們再定的更細節一點這樣子那吳委員他是說你所舉的這個樣態他會在執法當中你投名列,可以嗎?我可以理解那吳委員你要補充嗎?這個另外一點我們法律用語裡面有一個什麼特殊目的工具嗎?"},{"start":13054.244,"end":13057.006,"text":"這條文就按行政院版本通過,謝謝接下來"},{"start":13078.558,"end":13101.167,"text":"第49條之六我們一樣 版本都一樣就按照行政院的版本通過沒有意見 通過之七的部分那基本上這也沒有生意的條款我們就按照行政院版本通過 沒有意見第49條之八各位委員沒有意見 沒有意見那我們就照行政院版本通過"},{"start":13104.118,"end":13125.251,"text":"第49條之九各位有沒有意見、沒有意見就照行政院版本通過第49條之十各位有沒有意見、沒有意見就照行政院版本通過第49條之十一各位沒有意見我們就照行政院版本有修正"},{"start":13133.584,"end":13154.379,"text":"那個是相次啦,相次的部分補充說明,就照郭國文委員的版本通過,修正東西通過十一,現在是十一連動的"},{"start":13158.322,"end":13178.609,"text":"因為聯動條款,那我們這一條49條之11保留協商49條之12各位有沒有意見?沒有意見我們就照行政院版本通過第49條之13有修正動議嗎?請各位稍後宣讀條文"},{"start":13180.205,"end":13198.781,"text":"宣讀修正動議第49條之十三不動產投資信託基金受益憑證其買賣或經不動產投資信託事業依信託契約之約定買回者免徵證券交易稅。宣傳筆。那個條文內容那先"},{"start":13202.147,"end":13220.454,"text":"請提案人說明一下這個10%分離課稅及增交稅免徵應該比照信託型REITs無特定期限這個基金型REITs的合併建議比照與信託型REITs的合併投資標的移轉非屬所得所以這個是包括後面連後面順便跟大家說明包括13、14、15、19這個"},{"start":13224.175,"end":13240.763,"text":"移轉非屬所得稅課稅範圍然後提供機構投資人10%分離課稅優惠增加投資誘因然後有關地價稅部分因為產前已經碎片化地價稅建議用基本稅率而不是用歸戶後的這個累進稅率課徵好那針對陳一貞委員的這一個還是10年嘛對不對這個修正動議齁那請說明金管會"},{"start":13250.12,"end":13268.348,"text":"有關於49之13的部分就是證交稅的部分那委員這邊有徵定說如果約定買回也免徵證交稅那因為買回他並不是買賣買回就會註銷了所以本來就不用課徵那這可能到時候財政部可能問一下財政部"},{"start":13269.712,"end":13285.58,"text":"來,請市長。市長。是,報告委員齁,因為我們通常會講免徵是因為他要課稅,我們才會講免徵。那有一種狀況是他根本不在我稅法規定的課稅範圍。那一般是不用訂單,就像委員講有時候為了明確,我們就會寫非屬課稅範圍。"},{"start":13288.981,"end":13306.239,"text":"根據像剛才經理會特別講就是說因為贖回不叫買賣因為我們證券交易稅條例是只有買賣要課所以你贖回就不是自然就沒有課稅的問題所以是不用特別去講因為這樣會變成每次都要去講一遍因為它本來就不用課"},{"start":13307.1,"end":13326.876,"text":"另外一個就是說委員建議取消10年限制的部分要跟委員特別報告一下因為目前納稅者權利保護法施行之後在它第6條有規定所有的租稅優惠就納稅者權利保護法第6條有規定所有的租稅優惠都必須明定實施年限"},{"start":13327.717,"end":13356.476,"text":"那不動產正確化條例是舊的法是在我們納保法施行之前所以當時沒有定那就變成要用定期檢討的方式但所有新的法只要涉及租稅優惠都會有我們納保法第6條一個限制所以這個10年是現在所有的租稅優惠條都必須要定期加一個期限這個要跟委員會報因為委員後面也有一些需要取消所謂優惠使用年限的其實都是同一個法例"},{"start":13358.178,"end":13361.941,"text":"全都要規定那個時間嗎?那現在新波型的這個是有特定期限嗎?"},{"start":13362.97,"end":13376.435,"text":"因為信託型是舊的法是我們納保法實施之後才納保法實施之前所以當時沒有定因為那時候沒有法律限制嘛那這個就等於是要以後變成定期檢討所以變成後面那個中心要來檢討對如果說金管會要修法的時候我們必須也是要受到納保法的一個拘束"},{"start":13393.117,"end":13418.923,"text":"如果它沒有修法的話那個就是一樣沒有特定期限是這樣子嗎?信託行政?理論上是這樣啦但是因為從行政機關的角度應該是說我應該都要把租稅優惠重新檢討一遍才對但這個有修法時程的問題大家都會慢慢去排嘛我去問一下現在的這個信託基金收益憑證有課稅嗎?"},{"start":13423.032,"end":13448.426,"text":"你來請莊局長不是啦,就是說現在的不是指不動產喔我說信託、基金、收益憑證、交易有收稅嗎?有信基金ETF有啊對啊ETF在市集市場買賣的因為這個交易稅就是買賣我知道啊,稅率是多少?千分之一千分之一嘛齁那所以你這個不動產"},{"start":13451.14,"end":13475.718,"text":"買賣不動產投資信託基金收益憑證你給他10年免稅是給予優惠嘛那給予優惠的目的就是要鼓勵這種交易嘛是不是這樣子所以我覺得這要有年限比較好啊你時間到的時候再來檢討如果依當時的需要到時間到而且我覺得一次給10年真的很長欸你需要鼓勵這麼久嘛"},{"start":13478.121,"end":13502.056,"text":"這反而是另一個問題因為一獎勵就10年10年都免稅10年到的時候才檢討這是鼓勵更多人來去投入這個行業那我一直有需要做到這麼大的鼓勵嗎因為資金在市場上面通常這個就是現在一般民間這些團體說這是資本利得你對這個資本利得的稅"},{"start":13506.133,"end":13533.907,"text":"減免目的是鼓勵,這樣我們可以了解可是你鼓勵鼓勵10年欸這是另外一個思考啦,你們想一下張議長也要說明一下這個也許財政部也許等一下財政部可以再補充那基本上我們在跟財政部交涉的時候他對於這種比較不動產的性質的東西他目前跟我們談的大概用10年的概念來設定所以後面的法規都是用10年的概念來設定"},{"start":13537.037,"end":13559.293,"text":"董事長請補充說明通常我們這個我覺得如果原來垂詢的是我們一般財政部的立場我們一般都認為租稅優惠的條文應該要定期檢討所以定期一般我們大概都是定譬如3年、5年譬如當初降稅當然不就定3年就總之如果檢討的頻率需要高的我們就會定的短"},{"start":13559.853,"end":13587.026,"text":"如果他檢討頻率是可以比較長的那我們就會訂的比較長這是我們一般在就稅優惠是十一期限的訂定原則所以這個等於是要看一下就是主管機關本身他認為這個東西是不是需要到這麼長那當時當然是金管會有認為需要長一點所以我們財政部是尊重金管會的意見這樣當時是這樣"},{"start":13589.611,"end":13601.797,"text":"我覺得鼓勵性質、鼓勵這個投入是有需要這樣的誘因而且是10年的話要檢討10年是最長可以給的時間嗎?像我們立場當然就不一樣了一般就給10年是不是?好,那如果各位人沒有其他的意見的話我們就照行政院版本通過"},{"start":13617.359,"end":13635.663,"text":"四條之三那我們就照行政院版本通過那我們現在預告一下好不好我們待會是不是審到12點半讓大家休息一下吃個飯那大概還有另外一個法還有一個不動產條例先把這一個弄完"},{"start":13638.582,"end":13653.894,"text":"好 那可是我想說是不是要休息個5分鐘讓他上一下洗手間好 兩個多鐘頭好 那也要代理主席一下"},{"start":13657.478,"end":13680.183,"text":"第十十九條之十四先讀第十九條之十四修正單一第三項後段修正一單之十之扣繳率、扣繳稅款分離課稅不並計其分類年度營利事業所得額其餘均同行政院提案先讀完畢好謝謝我們請武力法委員提案人說明"},{"start":13681.557,"end":13698.216,"text":"謝謝主席我這邊是主要希望給予機構法人分離課稅10%的優惠因為我看到的資料像這種台北商辦其實它的毛收益率大概是2%"},{"start":13699.997,"end":13724.298,"text":"再扣掉行政成本大概剩1%多那像離岸風場的話自由資金估算的這個內部報酬率大概也只有3到4%所以我是想說對於要引資回台來講誘因是有限啦所以我才會增加說與本條文生效日起算我是給一個落日條款5年內"},{"start":13725.359,"end":13748.079,"text":"然後依10%之扣繳率、扣繳稅款、分離課稅不並計其分配年度盈利事業所得。」我大概做這樣的說明我的說明我的事實上是跟那個吳委員是一樣的鼓勵啊,要有點誘引那金管會是不是對於他們的提案做說明"},{"start":13750.165,"end":13778.53,"text":"這個條文主要是我們是跟財政部協商出來的結果那時候協商出來的結果就是個人分離課稅10年法人病毒引溯稅那這個是另外提出來的那可能就是要看財政部這邊的意見財政部的意見是我跟委員報告因為居山剛才會剛開始大家一直在討論因為我們現在已經有信託架構的位置那這個叫基金架構的位置所以我們當時原則上是維持一個租稅不要有差別待遇的情況"},{"start":13779.45,"end":13801.567,"text":"目前我們所得稅法的課稅原則現在我們所謂的分離課稅基本上只是限於個人的部分而且現在個人我們也慢慢想要限縮的原因是因為有很多那種高資產者如果取得這個所得你讓他分離課稅不是就並濟累進稅率的時候會造成所謂所得分配上的問題"},{"start":13802.768,"end":13828.469,"text":"最近不是常常講財富分配惡化啦或是所得分配惡化所以我們其實現在個人分離課稅慢慢在限縮當中那盈利系的部分因為根據我們現行盈利系所有的分離課稅基本上都已經取消掉唯一剩下的也不能叫分離課稅就是我們叫分開計稅就我們叫房地合一2.0的部分它是用高稅率高稅率我們才會讓它獨立出來去課比較高的稅"},{"start":13831.551,"end":13856.353,"text":"那這個盈利蟹的部分為什麼你一般都認為不要讓它合併到盈利蟹所得它是回到銀索稅的課稅制度裡面如果今天這家盈利蟹它有其他的虧損它是可以跟它衝的跟它衝然後以最後的結果再來課稅可是你分離課稅之後假設它有其他的虧損它就不能衝了它不能衝所以我們銀索大概基本上都回到盈利蟹來一併來計算 對"},{"start":13859.435,"end":13872.146,"text":"我們這樣提的,像剛剛委員所說的有的這個可能標的投資效益很差,如果再這樣併進去的話投資效益差才正好要併進去,併進去虧損可以把母公司的那個提掉啊投資效益很差就不到那麼好,我們說虧損不到那麼好,如果我們不給一點賦稅上的優惠我擔心的話有的東西會沒有優惠投入的人變少,我們訂這個法目的就希望投入的不管是個人或機構都是多的"},{"start":13888.519,"end":13890.741,"text":"請審議、本院委員郭國文等16人擬具:「證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文"},{"start":13917.287,"end":13943.406,"text":"宣讀宣讀第14、49條之15修正同意後段修正為其因納稅額之計算依土地稅法第16條規定之基本稅率課徵遞交稅宣讀完畢這是我提到一樣就是基本稅率這應該是內政那邊的嘛一樣啦就是說用基本稅率事實上應該不是差別太大如果累進太多的話事實上是不是"},{"start":13944.668,"end":13969.499,"text":"新的這個項目總是要鼓勵人家多多投入這是我們要推這個項目的原因吧?那一樣保留同樣的爭議嘛我們有49條之15那要保留來第49條之1716好16不好意思16好有沒有問題?沒問題那我們照行政院版本通過齁"},{"start":13972.285,"end":13987.041,"text":"宣讀第49條之17修正動議第二項修正為前項合併之條件、程序、方式及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之。其餘同行請審提案。宣讀完畢"},{"start":13990.333,"end":14006.689,"text":"因為這個REITs的現金不會低,如果要求其買回意義受益權,恐將造成這個REITs需要變賣現有投資標的,不利多數受益人權利,失去合併的這個效力所以提案這個刪除,這個跟這個主管機關原來的法令不一樣的地方請說明"},{"start":14012.695,"end":14037.783,"text":"金管會這邊說明這邊主要是因為那時候是參考為了保護異議受益人的買回的權利所以我們那時候是參考企業併購法的規定特別針對說有不同意合併的受益人有這個權利要求他有這個權利請他去買回那針對有不合併的受益人可以按照當時的一些公平價格去買回這些"},{"start":14038.843,"end":14065.939,"text":"受益憑證那相關的規定由授權我們主管機關訂定這個訂的目的其實就是為了保護異議的受益人這樣子跟這個防止這個做都跟圍牢那個情形會不會到時候我是舉那個情形說到時候會不會所謂的少數牽涉到影響到多數企業合併過程也是有類似這種股東、異議股東也是會有這樣的機制的存在都有啦那真的這是保護條款這個真的是保護條款"},{"start":14068.524,"end":14083.608,"text":"若沒有意見的話,我們就照行政院版本通過來,我們49條之18請問各位有沒有意見?沒有意見,我們就照行政院版本通過49條之19宣讀第49條之19修正動議第一項,續文"},{"start":14089.557,"end":14109.148,"text":"後段修正為及公共建設不動產及公共建設相關權利不動產及公共建設相關有價證券因合併而移轉適用下列規定第五款修正為及不動產及公共建設不動產及公共建設相關權利及有價證券之移轉非屬所得稅課徵範圍"},{"start":14111.733,"end":14140.1,"text":"舉同行政院提案先傳遞好 那我們請提案委員這個其實就是跟上面一樣我們家的公共建設的部分這跟從頭開始這個包括中間有被保留的那個條文裡頭公共建設相關的就是第一個希望鼓勵投入公共建設然後這個部分的話就是對於稅制上也給一些優惠重點的目的根源還是希望這個相關的基金相關的資金多多投入公共建設原因理由一致"},{"start":14141.479,"end":14169.596,"text":"好 那請那個金管會、政企局 那就是如同剛剛一直提到的如果是公共建設屬於不動產的範圍啊所有的租稅優惠都是這樣一體適用的不需要特別寫那如果是逾越這個範圍可能就是需要跟財政部再去協商這是我們跟財政部協商之後就是合併可以給予的一些租稅優惠的一些民事的規範好 那金管會的這條要保留"},{"start":14170.97,"end":14198.351,"text":"好,那我們49條第19齁,我們就保留接下來第4張,喔第49條,這是20,20,嗯,來好,照行政院版本通過,好,沒有意見齁,好,照行政院版本通過,來,第4張痾,證券投資信張明,第4張張明,第4張痾,證券投資欸,這個部分"},{"start":14200.004,"end":14226.121,"text":"沒有不同意見嗎?依照行政院版本通過好,第63條各位有沒有意見?沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過好,第66條各位有沒有意見?沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過第67條各位有沒有意見?沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過好,第68條各位有沒有意見?沒有意見,那我們按照行政院版本通過"},{"start":14235.735,"end":14261.075,"text":"第69條各位委員有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過第70條各位委員有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過第70條之一各位委員有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過第71條各位委員有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過第72條各位委員有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過"},{"start":14262.588,"end":14282.836,"text":"第74條各位有沒有意見?沒有意見?按照行政院版本通過第二節之一不動產投資信託事業各位有沒有意見?沒有意見?按照行政院版本通過第82條之一各位有沒有意見?沒有意見?按照行政院版本通過"},{"start":14290.442,"end":14313.83,"text":"第二條之一有,剛剛已經講好,來,第82條之二各位委員有沒有意見?沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過第82條之三各位委員有沒有意見?沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過第82條之四各位委員有沒有意見?沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過第82條之五各位委員有沒有意見?沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過"},{"start":14314.87,"end":14331.485,"text":"第84條各位委員有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過第87條各位有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過第94條各位有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過第100條各位有沒有意見、沒有意見按照行政院版本通過"},{"start":14341.208,"end":14343.089,"text":"101條,各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":14343.089,"end":14352.871,"text":"沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過104條,第104條,各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":14352.871,"end":14360.073,"text":"沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過第105條,各位有沒有意見?第101條之一,各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":14364.076,"end":14379.864,"text":"沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過第105條各位有沒有意見沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過第105條之一各位有沒有意見好,沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過第106條各位有沒有意見沒有意見,按照行政院版本通過"},{"start":14382.585,"end":14384.926,"text":"第107條各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":14384.926,"end":14385.586,"text":"沒有意見?"},{"start":14385.586,"end":14389.547,"text":"按照行政院版本通過第108條各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":14389.547,"end":14390.087,"text":"沒有意見?"},{"start":14390.087,"end":14392.548,"text":"按照行政院版本通過第111條配合49條之3這一條我們予以保留"},{"start":14410.492,"end":14425.14,"text":"好,第112條,各位有沒有意見?沒有意見?好,我們按照行政院版本通過第113條,各位有沒有意見?沒有意見?這個,我們看一下,對照一下條文齁,看有沒有保留條款"},{"start":14441.116,"end":14445.998,"text":"第113條行政院版本通過第114條行政院版本通過"},{"start":14463.652,"end":14486.598,"text":"第117條之一第115條各位有沒有意見沒有意見我們按照行政院版本通過第117條之一各位有沒有意見沒有意見我們按照行政院版本通過第121條刪除各位有沒有意見沒有意見我們就按照行政院版本通過第122條刪除各位有沒有意見沒有意見我們就按照行政院版本通過"},{"start":14492.827,"end":14520.026,"text":"好,那另外我們保留的部分我們就進行協商這個不是要送協商了嗎?這就送協商了啦沒有要繼續再討論了就送協商我們那個不動產的部分我們順便走完好不好?"},{"start":14525.519,"end":14537.61,"text":"來,那個條,來一份這應該比較...49支好幾條?這是316條?沒有"},{"start":14548.792,"end":14557.242,"text":"本院委員郭國文等16人擬具、「證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案 等2案。"},{"start":14572.286,"end":14572.806,"text":"好、好、好"},{"start":14603.748,"end":14618.794,"text":"對,我們現在用那個不動產證券化條例的修正動議請大家看一下好,第四條我們針對這個修正動議說明一下好不好這個我們之前舊版本的部分有進行一些協商"},{"start":14623.971,"end":14646.323,"text":"大委員這個部分的話第四條的是定義性的條文那針對第三項修正的部分的話我們是接受委員的建議好那我們就請大家看一下那個不動產修正動議的部分本席所提的部分這個修正的內容"},{"start":14649.97,"end":14670.226,"text":"這一邊跟原條文的差異主要是針對就是說不動產相關的有價證券我們本來是一個是定義性的條文那現在改成就是只經主管機關核定准與投資之不動產證券化商品或金融資產證券化商品"},{"start":14670.686,"end":14694.514,"text":"那這個部分的話因為跟我們剛剛講的那個基金型的是一致的啦因為這個基本上都是定義性條文所以我們考慮到說這個跟基金型的修正是一致的所以我們會一併修正其實就是兩個法把它一致化啦簡單的講是這樣子那如果沒意見的話我們就按照這一個"},{"start":14697.619,"end":14722.139,"text":"郭國文委員等委員修正的版本通過來,兩個部分把木去掉因為看起來第一項第一款是把那個但書拿掉了跟剛剛那個法案又不太一樣對第一修一的有恢復的那個黃委員跟你說明一下有恢復就修正單位有恢復第一有一支"},{"start":14723.719,"end":14725.521,"text":"第6條請莊局長說明一下第6條請大家看到第"},{"start":14749.02,"end":14751.041,"text":"第18款第18款的部分的話這個也是"},{"start":14764.939,"end":14792.714,"text":"跟那個就是投信投顧法的修正一樣就是投信投顧法那邊都把這個開發型的不動產或不動產相關權利全部都一起拿掉有有有剛剛都已經拿掉了我們主要是條文定義的一致化第五條第五條第五條所以第五條不過剛剛第五條我們是保留啦"},{"start":14802.972,"end":14815.514,"text":"請補充說明一下好不好我先跟他說明好幾次了就是因為他不要開發型一直做一個類型的限制把一些那個"},{"start":14818.974,"end":14821.217,"text":"對,他們有同意了,把它進行中也納入啦"},{"start":14835.345,"end":14836.526,"text":"希望開發階段就可以投入嗎?"},{"start":14864.67,"end":14869.614,"text":"我來幫忙說明一下啦因為事實上開發型是不動產這幾個字你要給他定義就很困難啦"},{"start":14880.688,"end":14903.646,"text":"開發型跟正在開發是不一樣正在開發是一個描述嘛那開發型之不動產是一個名詞嘛什麼叫做開發型之不動產那是貨後面只正進行或規劃進行開發之不動產這個是已經定義在裡頭了那你現在把它拿掉以後會變成是"},{"start":14907.348,"end":14907.528,"text":"當初為什麼寫這樣?"},{"start":14935.694,"end":14964.483,"text":"沒有一的形容詞當初為什麼要設呢?對,那是20年前的所以他要拿掉那這一條就按照郭委員的這個修正動議通過好,謝謝接著我們第六條他被反面解釋對,現在是以前有,現在沒有第六條沒有,他剛才是回到第五條現在第六條"},{"start":14974.361,"end":14986.714,"text":"第四頁第六條的最後一項那這一邊委員建議的部分的話就是在說如果今天是有一個受益證券就是要募集或者是"},{"start":14987.455,"end":15014.654,"text":"要募集這個受益證券的時候投資標的沒有明確的狀況之下那是不是他在送的這些申請文件上面要載明他的相關的項目那這些他要載明的這些相關的項目就是由我們執法來訂定就是等於是說今天有一個基金要募集應該就是說受益證券要募集的時候標的不明確"},{"start":15015.695,"end":15042.442,"text":"指標沒有確定的,標定不會,通常我們實務遇到的他不是全部都沒有只是某幾個標的不確定所以可是他這個標的沒有確定的話他就必須在投資計畫裡面他去說明一些事項說他將來可能在什麼時候會要確定或者他可能的這個標的的性質是什麼那所以我們這一塊我們就給就是"},{"start":15043.702,"end":15059.275,"text":"這些受託機構一些就是一些彈性說我們將來會在他的執法裡面去訂定相關應遵循的事項這個是郭委員的修正案你們本來沒有這一款"},{"start":15061.668,"end":15079.157,"text":"對,是因為有一些樣態就是說它的整個投資標的還沒有完整化的情況底下你要再直反投來進行規範就很像是我們ETF你還沒有買完全好的成分股的概念式的一頭那因為有一些是不齊有時候是不足那這種樣態"},{"start":15080.478,"end":15093.475,"text":"然後另外你要追募的這個基金要增加的話一樣要在這個執法裡頭做規定本來我們是封閉型的部分嘛就是我們大家匡列一定的金額但我們要追募的時候也要按照這種執法來做規範這是一個行政"},{"start":15097.077,"end":15121.063,"text":"報委員其實現在在境外的那個標的如果不明確的時候我們本來就訂有一些就是說他在投資計畫裡面要怎麼說明所以現在其實等於是說那本來境內的基金本來就沒有限定說他是不是他的標的要確定所以現在等於是說我們把本來在執法的東西放到某法裡面來"},{"start":15123.866,"end":15150.378,"text":"我也支持郭委員我覺得這個今晚會很多東西最好定的越明確越好好 那謝謝大家的支持那我就按照郭國文委員等的修正動議通過那接下來第17條第8條來 第8條各位有沒有意見好 那沒有意見我們就照那個"},{"start":15153.79,"end":15179.866,"text":"這是照郭國文委員的提案版本通過第9條那有版本在哪裡?原來有審訟國際會計準則啊在哪裏?在這邊啊?在這邊啊?國際會計準則他把原來財務會計準則改成國際會計準則"},{"start":15182.517,"end":15191.702,"text":"好,沒有意見,照郭國文委員的提案版本通過,來第9條好,沒有意見,照郭國文委員第9條通過,來第17條"},{"start":15213.464,"end":15238.534,"text":"有修正東西喔,來請那我們有再修正喔第17條請看一下另外這個白的這一份修正沒有再修正就修正就白的這個部分這個就是那個嘛這個就是剛剛我們提的那個就是維持30%的部分啦"},{"start":15240.802,"end":15253.713,"text":"這也是把這個條文一次化,跟剛剛的那個《證券投顧法》的一部分一樣做一個上限,一樣30%這個不是啊,你做的是第17條嗎?對,第17條"},{"start":15259.629,"end":15285.463,"text":"這是剛有保留的,不過我也是支持這個題,綜藝啊。跟我的題一樣,是保留的,不過這一個跟本期題的修正動議是一致的,所以我也是支持。那是不是照這個修正動議通過好不好?好,謝謝。就照這個修正。第19條。回到黃色這一本,第19條。"},{"start":15286.96,"end":15295.714,"text":"各位有沒有意見?沒有意見就按顧問法的版本通過第二十二條修正動議"},{"start":15301.718,"end":15331.207,"text":"提的目的為何?就是提出來修飾的兩日內辦理公告跟原來有什麼不一樣?增加會計組的規定那應該還有就前後條文把它一致化就是增加規定就對了好那沒有意見那就按照郭國文委員的修正動議通過來最後我們再回到黃的第25條版本的那個提案內容第25條之一各位有沒有意見?25條25條之一"},{"start":15332.981,"end":15358.499,"text":"好,沒有,沒有修正動議報告25條之一因為是修正是裡面牽涉到就是合併的合併的這個租稅那這個部分的話我們是不是那就不要了就按照銀行局的尊重銀行局的意思我們這一條就不予增電不予增電還有一個呢"},{"start":15360.106,"end":15384.651,"text":"還有一個是19條的部分就是介入款去作為什麼樣的目的這邊那現在因為委員建議是要擴增到其他的有價證券也可以做的取得也可以做介入款那這邊我們是擔心說如果可以做這麼多的介入款的話槓桿效果太大所以建議還是維持原來的條文"},{"start":15385.751,"end":15398.338,"text":"那就維持原條文嘛好不好我們就按好維持現行條文第49條就維持現行條文還有再來第9條的部分的話請大家看到第738頁"},{"start":15403.465,"end":15418.586,"text":"這個部分的話最主要是在於是說如果這個私募基金這個基金如果要擴大規模的話那個現行的條文是還是要經過受益人會議的通過"},{"start":15420.688,"end":15433.664,"text":"那委員建議是說只要達到一定比率或者金額才要收益人會通過那今晚會議這邊是認為說因為你要變更基金的規模其實會牽涉到基金的淨值還有"},{"start":15435.186,"end":15452.375,"text":"其受益人相關權益所以建議是說只要變更基金規模的時候都應該要經過受益人會議也就是維持現行的條文這程序條款就是要先尊重受益人先召開會議所以說我們就尊重銀行局的堅持第9條維持現行條文第26條經管會員要意見"},{"start":15466.234,"end":15485.188,"text":"二十六條金管會有沒有意見?二十六條這邊就是按照委員的建議因為這是那個國際跨境準則是名詞的修正那第二十六條就照郭國文的這個提案的版本通過來,第三十一條也是吧"},{"start":15486.496,"end":15514.728,"text":"好,各位也沒意見沒意見那就按照郭國文的提案版本通過好,來那個李坤澄委員這我問一下齁你對條文有意見還是沒有沒有沒有我是說第我不好意思回到第17條啦第17條17條這邊是說不得投資於住宅法啊這跟我們剛討論這一個《證券投資信託及顧問法》這個所以我們這個是通過了還是保留保留過保留嘛齁這個是保留嘛齁都一樣保留嘛齁"},{"start":15517.004,"end":15534.839,"text":"對,這邊是通過還是保留?剛剛是想通過,照修正通過。保留的是那個法。對,所以這邊是通過,那邊是保留就對了。不同法。這不是要一致化嗎?不是啦,我是說要一致又一致啦。好。"},{"start":15543.064,"end":15543.444,"text":"請各位稍後"},{"start":15573.489,"end":15577.433,"text":"他在念的時候我們跟他合照一下他還是會再回到財政委員會"},{"start":15625.635,"end":15626.595,"text":"好,我們現在宣讀協商結論"},{"start":15629.847,"end":15648.155,"text":"宣讀《證券投資信託及顧問法協商結論》法案名稱照行政院提案通過第一條照行政院提案通過第二條照行政院提案通過增訂第三條之一照行政院提案通過第五條保留送院會協商"},{"start":15649.395,"end":15674.765,"text":"第六條,照行政院提案通過第七條,照行政院提案通過第八條,照行政院提案通過增訂第二章之一章名,照行政院提案通過增訂第49條之一,照行政院提案通過增訂第49條之二,照行政院提案通過增訂第49條之三,保留送宴會協商增訂第...保留協商"},{"start":15676.738,"end":15704.455,"text":"增訂第49條之4造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之5造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之6造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之7造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之8造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之9造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之10造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之11造行政院提案通過保留、送協商"},{"start":15707.543,"end":15720.574,"text":"增訂第49條之12照行政院提案通過增訂第49條之13照行政院提案通過增訂第49條之14保留送學商增訂第49條之15保留送學商"},{"start":15726.789,"end":15749.556,"text":"增訂第49條之16造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之17造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之18造行政院提案通過增訂第49條之19保留宋協商增訂第49條之20造行政院提案通過第4張張明造行政院提案通過第63條造行政院提案通過"},{"start":15752.022,"end":15755.907,"text":"第66條、第67條、第68條、第69條、第70條、第70條之一、第71條、第72條、第74條均照行政院提案通過。增訂第二節之一結名,照行政院提案通過。"},{"start":15768.542,"end":15793.551,"text":"增訂第82條之一造行政院提案通過增訂第82條之二造行政院提案通過增訂第82條之三造行政院提案通過增訂第82條之四造行政院提案通過增訂第82條之五造行政院提案通過第84條造行政院提案通過第87條造行政院提案通過第94條造行政院提案通過第100條造行政院提案通過第101條造行政院提案通過"},{"start":15794.511,"end":15804.515,"text":"第104條照行政院提案通過 增定第104條之一照行政院提案通過第105條照行政院提案通過第106條照行政院提案通過第107條、108條均照行政院提案通過第111條保留算學商第112條、第113條、第114條、第115條"},{"start":15818.001,"end":15828.75,"text":"均照行政院提案通過增訂第117條之一照行政院提案通過刪除第121條照行政院提案通過刪除第122條照行政院提案通過"},{"start":15831.28,"end":15854.125,"text":"宣讀不動產證券化條例協商結論第四條,照委員郭國文等三人修正動議通過第六條,照委員郭國文等三人修正動議通過第八條,照委員郭國文等16人提案通過第九條,維持現行條文第十七條,保留送協商第十九條,維持現行法條文"},{"start":15855.365,"end":15878.613,"text":"第二十二條趙文、郭國文等三人修正動議通過第二十五條之一不予爭定第二十六條趙文、郭國文等16人提案通過第三十一條趙文、郭國文等16人提案通過詢問完畢好,請問各位委員對協商結論有無異議好,無異議我們照協商結論通過本日會議做如下決議一"},{"start":15881.232,"end":15902.48,"text":"證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案3案全案審查完畢並按擬具審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前交由黨團協商院會討論時由本席補充說明請問各位委員對以上決議有異議好沒有異議通過好"},{"start":15905.144,"end":15924.08,"text":"第二不動產證券化條例部分條文修正草案審查完略擬具審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前交由黨團協商院會討論時有本席補充說明請問各位委員對以上決議有異議沒有好無異議通過休息"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}