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我這個算我幫你啦因為他凍結說叫你們趕快來解凍"},{"start":327.177,"end":356.426,"text":"又講一個廢話啦你凍結又要求要來狀案報告你章偉不排那你怎麼解凍他是要求你要來狀案報告才能解凍如果章偉不排你狀案報告你連解凍的機會也沒有這一點的話蘇貨部是被凍什麼叫蘇貨部趕快來解凍什麼叫趕快解凍所以我請兩位章偉就這一點應該盡速排啦解凍預算的狀案盡速排那兩位章偉協調一下啦那一天多排幾個案嘛"},{"start":357.281,"end":386.642,"text":"你就可以多解凍幾個案子嘛是不是這樣那至少可以救20%啦凍結是20%啦但刪減的40%都沒救了啦所以難怪行政院要提復議啦難怪行政院沒辦法接受還要再我們還有其他的憲憲政或者是司法的手段啦要不然我們再來看啦你剛提到的出國經費全被砍光了司法部要不要派人"},{"start":388.106,"end":415.888,"text":"接送一些勤資的訓練我們訓練有100場 這是各樣各樣的要國外嘛 情報的交流嘛情報交流 還有演練 還有一些集合我們跟美國 日本 澳洲 是不是都有這些相關的情報交流都有 然後也有不同的會議跟一些訓練你現在不能去嘛好 那就最簡單的我們駐外單位 外管外管的資訊安全防護集合就沒辦法做蘇澳不要派人去集合"},{"start":417.014,"end":425.957,"text":"要看你有沒有做得好 要去檢驗 要去稽查那現在也不能去了 出國預算砍到零那是要怎麼叫你做事所以我去 像那個什麼 資安院的預算對不對 這預算砍掉幾% 砍25%對 這個至少目前是25% 至少我也不知道一號在野黨的立委 藍白的立委站在這裡要求你做什麼"},{"start":447.812,"end":467.699,"text":"然後又說你不能用預算被砍當理喔有要求自然要你也要問一下 你有時候人家抬刀 如果沒有做事 又說你不能用這個做理由說什麼笑話 最簡單的啊不然你的薪水40%抬刀 你再挖刀過日子喔想不出來很難過的啦 對不對 還有20%凍結不能贏的"},{"start":473.937,"end":484.967,"text":"我們我們剛剛就講我們是真的很窮我們沒有哭窮是真的是真的是很辛苦不是窮就是你現在就是被亂搞嘛你預算沒搞這樣的話嚴重影響到國家的"},{"start":488.666,"end":517.87,"text":"一些相關重大業務啦 尤其我剛提到的我們一天有各式各樣的駭客供給有4000萬次嘛這司法部掌握的嘛那其中最近啦 更嚴重的 集中在供給我們的基礎設施啦一些水電啦 金融銀行啦要是有一天大家起床發現每個人的存款都變為零會不會發生這有可能啦有可能啦你被供進去 一定每個人每個人 銀行口袋都變零啦那社會會不會大亂"},{"start":519.766,"end":547.596,"text":"會那現在供給的技術不斷進步AI不斷的進步那我們也必須要不斷的進步用AI來防禦結果這邊預算給你全部砍掉是不是所以我個人認為說那你如果我們對於塑化布預算被砍成這樣子的話那我們以後如何要求塑化布去達成他該做的事情要了解喔"},{"start":548.652,"end":576.823,"text":"部長你常講 你提過的速發部就是網路的國防部啦對不對軍事上的衝突沒有啦目前兩岸是一種實際上已經開戰了就是在網路上面那速發部就是我們的網路國防部你現在把我們網路國防部給廢掉四十八五層山堵怕死啦部長你很為難啦"},{"start":580.165,"end":603.058,"text":"但是我覺得行政院,難怪行政院沒有辦法接受這樣的預算的刪減確實我們工作很重要,這刪減會影響到很多國家安全的重要工作我覺得你必須要把你被刪減造成的重大負面影響,你要去宣講你要訴諸民意,你跟這些在黨立委說話不好,他也不會聽"},{"start":607.004,"end":631.903,"text":"是不是這樣好 謝謝這個不是省預算 這不是監督這是亂搞還有三四十趴的對不對任何一個立委你自己辦公室的預算我給你砍四十趴你試試看再給你動錢二十趴對不對你自己家庭的預算收入我給你砍掉四十趴你怎麼過日子好 部長辛苦啦謝謝委員好 大家加油啦好 謝謝喔謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":220,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時05分）謝謝主席，邀請數發部黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：林委員早。"],["林委員俊憲：部長好。前幾天新聞報導，臺灣有兩家大醫院受到駭客攻擊，就是馬偕醫院和彰基，有很多個資流出，甚至有人在網路上公開販賣這些個資。所以醫院算不算我們的關鍵基礎設施？"],["黃部長彥男：醫院算。"],["林委員俊憲：當然算。就本席了解，以及政府提出的相關報告，每天各公務機關和一些基礎設施，像電信、醫療、水電、金融、銀行，一天到晚遭到駭客攻擊，在全世界，我們大概是前幾名，屬於最嚴重的地方，這是國安局的報告。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["林委員俊憲：2024年，我們受到來自中共的網路駭客攻擊，平均一天240萬次。部長，你的看法呢？"],["黃部長彥男：對。關於這個報告，我們看到的數目其實比這個還多，不過這裡指的是來自對岸的攻擊，如果依照我們現在看到的，其實每個月有13億次的攻擊。"],["林委員俊憲：每個月有多少次？"],["黃部長彥男：13億次。"],["林委員俊憲：每個月13億次，一天就是4,000萬次。"],["黃部長彥男：將近，或者突破這個數字，是這樣沒錯，但這是對政府網路。"],["林委員俊憲：假設一天有幾千萬次的駭客攻擊，第一個，光是公務單位，這也是國安局的報告，去年有694個公務單位受到駭客攻擊。另外，這也是臺灣經常發生的，尤其是最近狀況越來越嚴重，就是海底電纜被弄斷，導致我們的資訊傳輸受到影響，所以我們必須增加數位韌性，例如透過衛星或者其他方式，像增設海纜的登陸站、海纜資訊轉發中心等等。","不過現在有個問題，但今天不知道該用什麼樣的角度質詢數發部。如果想要求數發部要有好的績效，但我們看到的是，在所有部會當中，預算被砍最嚴重的就是數發部。本席剛才聽到立委說是凍結，不是刪減，當然，凍結和刪減不一樣，但數發部是被刪減最嚴重的部會，超過71億6,000萬元的預算，大概刪減41%啦！"],["黃部長彥男：刪減三十幾億元、41%。"],["林委員俊憲：數發部的預算是被刪減，不是凍結喔！凍結的部分是20%。是不是這樣？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["林委員俊憲：凍結數大概有三十幾億元啦！"],["黃部長彥男：對。所以我們是真的被刪很多，剛剛……"],["林委員俊憲：很簡單啦！在座的任何一個人，或任何一個家庭，如果你的收入被砍掉40%，還有20%不能凍支，你的收入總共60%出問題，那麼不管是個人或家庭，還能運轉下去嗎？我們不知道今天安排數發部來報告，藍白兩黨的立委要怎麼問你？就算你想好好做也很難啦！因為你們沒錢，能做什麼？如果你們做的不好，我們怎麼指責數發部？因為預算全砍光了，我們還能期待數發部做什麼？","例如剛才說到要防堵駭客，數發部補助很多單位，像電信技術中心，它就是做衛星緊急應變計畫，主要是增加我們的韌性，本席現在說的是韌性建設司的預算，所以拿它當例子。為什麼一天會有4,000萬次的駭客攻擊？一個月就是13億次，就是因為現在駭客都是用AI在攻擊我們。"],["黃部長彥男：沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：所以每天的變化很快，不斷打進我們的安全網，突破我們的安全網，我們要怎麼防制？就是用AI防制，對不對？因為魔和道一直在鬥，所以我們有AI網路的主動式防禦研究計畫，這是必須研究、補助的，結果全砍光了，本席認為這樣會很慘，像韌性建設司的相關補助經費，五億多元就被砍了3億元，本席只是簡單舉這個部分為例。本席不曉得大家以後要怎麼要求數發部去執行業務，要求他們把事情做好，因為就刪預算這一點，站在立委的立場來說，這是自相矛盾的。"],["黃部長彥男：對，剛才說……"],["林委員俊憲：當然，有立委說你們還有法定預算啊！廢話！當然有法定預算，但法定預算是什麼？法定預算就是薪水，是退休、撫恤的錢，這些又不能拿來執行業務，大家到底有沒有搞懂？法定預算就是即使預算一毛錢都沒通過，政府也要支出，因為這是為了保障你們的生活，其中包括你們的薪水、退休提撥，但這些法定預算不能拿來執行數發部任何一項工作。","還有凍結數，本席私底下和兩位召委說過，這一點算本席幫你啦！因為這部分被凍結了，所以你們要趕快來提解凍。這又是一句廢話啦！你們的預算被凍結，要求你們來做專案報告，但是如果召委不排議程怎麼解凍？因為委員是要求你們來做專案報告才能解凍，如果召委不安排你們的專案報告，你們連解凍的機會都沒有。就這一點來說，數發部是被動的，什麼叫請數發部趕快來解凍？","所以本席才會請兩位召委儘速安排啦！解凍預算的專案報告要儘速安排，請兩位召委協調一下，一天多排幾個案子，這樣你們就可以多解凍幾個案子嘛！是不是這樣？"],["黃部長彥男：對，謝謝委員。"],["林委員俊憲：至少可以救一下這20%，因為被凍結20%，但刪減的40%就沒救了。難怪行政院要提覆議，難怪行政院沒辦法接受，還有其他的憲政或者司法手段，我們可以繼續看下去。你剛才提到的出國經費全被砍光，數發部有沒有派人接受一些情資訓練？"],["黃部長彥男：我們去年有100場各樣各樣的……"],["林委員俊憲：到國外嘛！進行情報的交流。"],["黃部長彥男：對。情報的交流、演練，還有一些稽核。"],["林委員俊憲：我們和美國、日本、澳洲是不是有相關的情報交流？"],["黃部長彥男：都有，也有不同的會議和訓練。"],["林委員俊憲：但是現在不能去嘛！就說最簡單的，駐外單位、外館的資訊安全防護。"],["黃部長彥男：稽核就沒辦法做。"],["林委員俊憲：數發部要派人去稽核耶！要看你們有沒有做好，要去檢驗、稽查，結果現在也不能去了，因為出國預算被砍到零。這樣你們要怎麼做事？像資安院的預算被砍百分之多少？25%？"],["黃部長彥男：對，至少目前是25%。"],["林委員俊憲：本席不知道以後在野的藍白立委站在這裡質詢時，可以要求你們做什麼，還說你們不能用預算被砍當理由。"],["黃部長彥男：又要求資安要……"],["林委員俊憲：你們不要那麼惡劣，把他們的預算砍掉，導致他們沒辦法做事，又說你們不能用這個當作理由，這是什麼邏輯？對不對？拿掉你40%的薪水，你還有辦法過日子嗎？一定過的很辛苦啦！對不對，而且還有20%被凍結，不能使用。"],["黃部長彥男：剛剛有說過，我們是真的很窮，我們不是哭窮，是真的很辛苦。"],["林委員俊憲：不是窮啦！你們現在就是被亂搞嘛！你們的預算被大幅刪減，嚴重影響國家相關的重大業務。尤其是本席剛剛提到的，我們會遭到各式各樣的駭客攻擊，一天有4,000萬次，這是數發部掌握的數字嘛！而且最近更嚴重，集中攻擊我們的基礎設施，包括水電、金融、銀行，會不會有一天大家起床時，發現每個人的存款都變為零？會不會發生？"],["黃部長彥男：有可能。"],["林委員俊憲：有可能啊！如果被攻進去，把每個人的銀行帳戶都變成零，這樣社會會不會大亂？"],["黃部長彥男：會。"],["林委員俊憲：現在攻擊的技術不斷進步，AI不斷進步，所以我們也必須不斷進步，用AI來防禦，結果這部分的預算卻被全部砍掉。所以本席個人認為，數發部的預算被砍成這樣，以後我們如何要求數發部去達成他們該做的事情？這一點大家要了解喔！","部長，這也是你提過的，數發部就是網路的國防部，對不對？現在是沒有軍事上的衝突啦！但是目前兩岸實際上已經開戰了，就是在網路方面，數發部就是我們的網路國防部，你們現在把我們的網路國防部廢掉，40%預算被刪除，這樣真的會嚇死人。部長，其實你也很為難啦！難怪行政院沒有辦法接受這樣的預算刪減。"],["黃部長彥男：確實，我們的工作很重要，這樣刪減會影響到很多攸關國家安全的重要工作。"],["林委員俊憲：本席認為你必須去宣講預算被刪減之後所造成的重大負面影響，要訴諸民意，你和這些在野黨立委說是沒有用的，因為他們沒有要聽。是不是這樣？"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝。"],["林委員俊憲：這不是審預算、不是監督，這是亂搞！所以才會刪減40%，對不對？任何一位立委，你們可以試試自己辦公室的預算被砍40%，然後再凍結20%，或者家庭收入被砍掉40%，這樣你要怎麼過日子？部長，辛苦啦！"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員。"],["林委員俊憲：大家加油啦！謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝俊憲委員。剛才林國成他們是希望趕快解凍，本席一開始也說了，刪減這麼多真的很誇張，等於是又要馬兒跑，又要馬兒不吃草。俊憲委員也提到要趕快解凍，本席可以儘量幫忙多排專案報告，這個部分請數發部儘快處理，謝謝。","請蔡其昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-2","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","黃健豪","林楚茵","游顥","葛如鈞"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}