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被刪了"},{"start":46.949,"end":67.671,"text":"有沒有備刪?這份沒有,這份現在已經補過了所以進度可以趕快?預估在115年6月完成這個也是數位任性嘛,這很要緊啦因為你都老是被人家弄破壞嘛好,這個是我希望能夠按照進度趕快來做"},{"start":70.066,"end":88.14,"text":"那今天本席還是希望在詢問上一次質詢之後本席問的一些問題我持續發漏我跟部長講我的風格就是四年都會問一樣的問題你知道我要問什麼嗎怎麼防止詐騙我對你四年只有這個要求而已上一次"},{"start":95.776,"end":123.831,"text":"質詢的時候部長承諾本席齁這個實名制啊當時這個本來是一月後來部長告訴本席說Meta說一月底要開始落實廣告代理商全面落實實名制嘛那部長落實了嗎目前目前他有在進行是不是全面落實我是不是請那個署長"},{"start":126.025,"end":134.852,"text":"目前他已經全面落實所以全面落實之後我們速發部在3月要做一個所謂身份驗證防詐計畫"},{"start":137.37,"end":153.187,"text":"這個三月底要開始審查對不對要求這些公司提供這些簡單講啦你要做的事情就是了解一下他們落實的情形是怎麼樣同時這個對於防止詐騙有沒有效對不對這個會議的重點在這裡嘛好"},{"start":159.775,"end":178.103,"text":"部長你初步覺得有沒有效從1月底開始實名制實施到現在3月中你覺得有沒有效第一個我們看到從源頭就是在Meta或是在這些平台廣告平台商的詐騙廣告確實有大量的下降"},{"start":179.083,"end":204.509,"text":"這個數目確實當然還是有但是大量下降另外從金額上如果我們看16打那個就是就是那個儀錶板也看到就是從過去之前大概每天3億多到6億多的詐騙金額現在下降到1億多到3億的這樣所以這個以這個不管是數目跟詐騙的金額都有明顯的下降我看了一下這個你們的這個網路詐騙通報查詢網的測試版"},{"start":208.912,"end":227.838,"text":"上面的數字看起來是下降了72%是不是這樣的意思事實上目前看到比這個還更高所以大概還剩多少就實施實名制之後還有幾%是沒有辦法那個詐騙還是在網路上面還在運作的"},{"start":232.205,"end":252.443,"text":"現在價格就是下降大概有94%你這個數字我看起來好像沒那麼多這個是委員這個還是去年的資料我們目前最新的資料就是現在就是過去過去比如說每週有7萬多件的詐騙廣告那個就投資詐騙廣告"},{"start":255.566,"end":278.921,"text":"那在2月我們就現在是每週大概7000多件但是還是很多不過從每週這個7萬多件到現在7000多件大概就是現在就是90%那身分冒充就是以前冒充像黃仁勳這種公眾就名人的廣告過去一週有38000多件現在大概剩下1000多件所以這個下降大概有95%以上"},{"start":280.242,"end":295.963,"text":"好所以有一些效果嘛有就是以數量來講好那這個上一次我們提到對於這個網路照片通報查詢的這個查詢網啊這個什麼時候會正式上線"},{"start":297.312,"end":322.81,"text":"我們那個2.0版當初就是上線之後因為上次測試版以後有一些民眾的反應以後我們做一些修改包括這個就包括能夠有這個所謂的這個一個介面的改善然後另外就是我們要注意到這個所謂的這個就是說那個一般民眾在這個就是能夠有一些就是給這個障礙就是說對我知道就是你就測試完之後"},{"start":324.33,"end":341.915,"text":"然後後來就是我們這些包括影像模糊化避免有一些不當的使用像這種功能加上去之後我們現在是在1月多又上線各部會使用那各部會在測試中那也在行政院也在就是說我們已經抱怨了那行政院如果通過我們就會正式上線"},{"start":342.615,"end":364.502,"text":"因為你上一次12月4號當天告訴本席希望第一劑行政院能夠通過正式上線第一劑大概已經剩下半個月了現在就是已經我們在1月就給各部會開始使用然後大概等行政院通過同意我們就上線部長行政院通過你覺得第一劑結束第二劑可以正式上線有沒有問題"},{"start":365.933,"end":374.447,"text":"我們再努力再更新這邊這個要快啦這個可以再多啦這個對大家來講很重要嘛好那最後我們就來討論那個10%啦就是那個"},{"start":377.639,"end":394.798,"text":"我現在依照你的數據啦我這個可能資料比較舊你比較新沒有關係依照你比較新的你剛剛講說齁大概降了9成網路的這個詐騙大概降了9成那這個降了9成換言之有10%那這10%呢我知道你們要透過3月底4月的會議來檢討嘛"},{"start":396.9,"end":418.365,"text":"那我舉一些例子啦這個是我們辦公室常常會有那個來檢舉的除了你所以我說你那個你那個那個檢舉那個通報網啊要趕快正式上線因為正式上線我們明帶啊你來跟我檢舉的數量就會下降不然的話你直接去網路檢舉就可以了我舉一個例子啦我舉一個例子部長這個齁這個是"},{"start":427.475,"end":439.428,"text":"檢舉人講的有四個有四個同樣的出資者有四個不同的界面同樣的出資者"},{"start":440.612,"end":466.799,"text":"在台灣的在進行所謂會員招募叫你加入加入他們的會員嘛好那實名制的概念就是這個圖表這個圖卡上面那個方框啊那個方框就是告訴你說這一個廣告是誰啦好那所以他有實名制嗎有嗎有實名制有好那我請助理啊上網去查一下這個A"},{"start":469.174,"end":491.607,"text":"這個AMBEV這個AMBEV是什麼公司查起來就是巴西的一家飲料公司那巴西的一家飲料公司實名制來台灣做投資招募廣告這個邏輯上我是聽不大懂啦"},{"start":492.725,"end":520.289,"text":"我聽不懂先不管他可不可以做這個啦我們先講一家巴西的飲料公司跑到台灣來做這個事情我也沒有說他詐騙啦因為我也不知道我沒有這個司法的調查權可以去行政調查司法調查都沒有我不知道他是真是假我只是覺得這個很不合理啦很不合理但他實名制喔他的確落實了實名制那可是呢這廣告還是依然存在"},{"start":521.01,"end":542.137,"text":"那我就請他說那你應該去跟臉書去詢問結果那個Meta說他們有一個叫廣告刊登準則那這個廣告刊登準則是這個廣告是符合廣告刊登準則所以不用下架"},{"start":544.344,"end":564.801,"text":"那我也不知道他的廣告刊登準則是什麼但是速發部應該要知道他們的廣告刊登準則是什麼那換言之廣告刊登準則有沒有跟速發部或者中華民國的法令規章有違背如果有的話這個法令規章這個公司內部的廣告刊登準則就大有問題"},{"start":566.038,"end":590.568,"text":"所以我的意思只是在幫助說我用一個實名制的案例來告訴部長說我沒有說他詐騙啦我再一次強調我沒有辦法查嘛但是我只是覺得除非說這個他登錄他這個出資者AMBEV他不是巴西這家公司他是另外一家相同的公司我不知道"},{"start":591.408,"end":619.717,"text":"因為我也沒辦法查我只能Google告訴我但你們可以去查你們可以用這個案例來查說到底為什麼那個10%還存在就已經實名制了雖然已經大幅下降看得到速發部在努力但是那個10%是怎麼來的我只是舉這個例子告訴你說會不會那個10%的貓膩就藏在這個細節裡面就是對於出資公司的審查合不合理"},{"start":621.035,"end":638.97,"text":"他的實名制到底是怎麼運作去登錄那個實名制的我可不可以隨便路上撿到一張身分證我就說這個是我我可不可以自己隨便弄一個公司就說這是有啊有公司啊有實名制啊可不可以這樣子我不知道啦所以我的意思只是舉這個例子來告訴部長"},{"start":641.94,"end":665.76,"text":"這個應該是一個可以把那個10%同時解決的可能的方向我們會再跟Meta在這廣告更看準的再仔細的再討論那希望能夠把這個降低就源頭管理啦如果他源頭能夠管理的好會減少我們後面很多麻煩所以我們會再繼續努力對所以我只是提供給你你們可以朝這個方向因為我就把實名制的抓出來嘛這個很看起來就是不合理嘛"},{"start":666.46,"end":684.168,"text":"所以部長最後啦我想時間已經到了啦本席每次看到這種新聞我都很難過啦這個叫做詐騙被詐騙一千兩百萬然後母女就去這個輕生的這種新聞所以本席為什麼說我四年只會問你這個問題"},{"start":686.095,"end":699.727,"text":"除非有一天在四年內詐騙幾乎是很少啦就跟其他的案件一樣就是社會總會有一些不守規矩的人但如果他的比例都是異常像台灣的詐騙比例這麼高"},{"start":701.55,"end":722.109,"text":"本席就會我只有問你我只會你就站在這裡我站在這裡至少我們還有三年的時間嘛我就會一直問你這個問題因為每一次這種新聞一出來我都覺得很難過那這只是冰山一角嘛你從你的數字的統計就知道其實還有很多的案例只是或許有一些人就默默承受了所以我們為什麼"},{"start":723.342,"end":746.155,"text":"本席一直強調書發部對於這件事情的工作你要預算要法令的修改本席都很支持我們一起啦這個只是講你沒有給你工具你也做不了嘛所以我常常講說立法院是你的後盾啦我們站在民意的角度我們認為人民的痛苦在哪裡我們幫人民質詢幫人民監督同時也就是協助你"},{"start":746.855,"end":757.379,"text":"希望立法院成為你們的後盾大家一起跟業者大家一起合作讓台灣的詐騙真的把他打到讓台灣的詐騙活不下去好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":277,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時16分）謝謝主席。請數發部黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，好像原先計畫今年要做一條新的海底電纜，有這樣的預算嗎？就是強化數位韌性的部分。"],["黃部長彥男：對。這部分分成國際、國內，國內現在有10條海底電纜，我們要再加台馬四號。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，要再加一條。"],["黃部長彥男：就是要補助台馬四號。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，簡單的說，這樣會多一條海底電纜，是嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對，會多一條。"],["蔡委員其昌：對嘛！但是預算被刪除了。有沒有被刪？"],["牛司長信仁：這部分沒有，因為這部分前瞻預算已經補助了。"],["蔡委員其昌：補助了？所以進度如何？"],["牛司長信仁：預估在115年6月完成，如果海象許可。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，這部分也關係到數位韌性嘛！這是很重要的。"],["牛司長信仁：是的。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為老是被人家破壞，所以這個部分本席希望能夠按照進度趕快完成。今天本席還是要再次詢問，就是上次質詢時提出的一些問題，本席要持續follow。本席要告訴部長，本席的風格就是4年都會問一樣的問題，你知道本席要問什麼嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：防詐騙。"],["蔡委員其昌：怎麼防止詐騙？這4年，本席對你只有這個要求而已。上一次質詢的時候，部長有承諾本席，本來是1月要做實名制，後來部長告訴本席，Meta說1月底要開始落實廣告代理商全面實名制。部長，落實了嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：目前他們有在進行，至於是不是全面落實，是不是請署長說明？"],["林署長俊秀：目前他們已經全面落實。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。所以全面落實之後，數發部在3月要做所謂的身份驗證防詐計畫，3月底要開始審查，對不對？就是要求這些公司提供資料。簡單的說啦！你們要做的事情就是了解一下他們落實的情形如何，以及這樣做對防止詐騙有沒有效，對不對？這個會議的重點在這裡。"],["黃部長彥男：對，沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，初步來看，從1月底開始實施實名制，到現在3月中，你覺得有沒有效？"],["黃部長彥男：第一個，我們看到至少從源頭，就是在Meta或是在這些平台的詐騙廣告確實有大量下降，當然還是有，但是有大量下降。另外從金額來說，165防詐儀表板的資料也能看到，從之前每天大約三億多元到六億多元的詐騙金額，現在下降到一億多元到三億多元，以這個資料來看，不管是數目或詐騙的金額都有明顯下降。"],["蔡委員其昌：我看了你們網路詐騙通報查詢網的測試版，上面的數字看起來是下降了72%，是不是這樣的意思？"],["黃部長彥男：目前看到的比這個更高。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以大概還剩多少？就是實施實名制之後，還有幾趴的詐騙還是在網路上運作的？"],["黃部長彥男：現在下降大概有90%。"],["蔡委員其昌：94%？你這個數字看起來好像沒那麼多？"],["黃部長彥男：這個還是去年的資料，目前最新的資料，比如過去每一週有七萬多件的投資詐騙廣告，在2月每週大概七千多件，當然還是很多，不過從每週七萬多件到現在七千多件，大概減少90%。身分冒充的部分，就是像冒充黃仁勳這樣的名人廣告，過去一週有三萬八千多件，現在大概剩下一千多件，下降95%以上。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以有一些效果嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：有，以數量來講有。"],["蔡委員其昌：上一次我們提到對於網路詐騙通報查詢網，什麼時候會正式上線？"],["黃部長彥男：當初上線是測試版，因為有一些民眾反映之後，我們做了一些修改，包括介面的改善，另外就是我們要注意一般民眾障礙的……"],["蔡委員其昌：我知道，你測試完要正式版。"],["黃部長彥男：後來就是包括影像要模糊化，避免不當的使用，這些功能加上去之後，我們1月多又上線給各部會使用，各部會在測試中，我們也報院了，如果行政院通過，我們就會正式上線。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為你12月4日當天告訴本席，希望第一季行政院能夠通過正式上線，第一季大概剩下半個月了。"],["黃部長彥男：我們在1月就給各部會開始使用，等行政院同意就上線。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，行政院通過，你覺得第一季結束，第二季正式上線，有沒有問題？"],["黃部長彥男：我們再努力，再跟行政院溝通。"],["蔡委員其昌：要快啦！這個不可以再拖，對大家來講很重要。最後，我們來討論那10%，我現在依照你的數據，我的資料可能比較舊，你的比較新一點，依照你比較新的資料，你剛剛說網路詐騙大概降了九成，換言之還有10%，我知道你們要透過3月底、4月的會議來檢討，我舉一些例子，這是我們辦公室通常會來檢舉的，所以我說你那個檢舉通報網要趕快正式上線，這樣來向民代檢舉的數量就會下降，直接網路檢舉就可以了。我舉一個例子，這個是檢舉人講的，有4個同樣的出資者，有4個不同的介面，在臺灣進行會員招募，叫你加入他們的會員。實名制的概念就是這個圖卡上面的方框，這個方框就是告訴你這個廣告是誰，所以它有實名制嘛！我請助理上網查一下，這個Ambev是什麼公司？查起來就是巴西的一家飲料公司，巴西的一家飲料公司實名制來臺灣做投資招募廣告，這個邏輯上我聽不大懂，先不管它可不可做這個，我們先講一家巴西的飲料公司跑到臺灣來做這個事情，我也沒有說它詐騙，因為我也不知道，我沒有司法調查權、行政調查權，不知道它是真是假，我是覺得這很不合理，但它實名制喔！它的確落實了實名制，可是這廣告還是依然存在，我就請他應該跟臉書詢問，結果Meta說它有一個廣告刊登準則，這個廣告是符合廣告刊登準則，所以不用下架，我也不知道它的廣告刊登準則是什麼，但是數發部應該要知道它們的廣告刊登準則是什麼。換言之，廣告刊登準則有沒有跟數發部或中華民國的法令規章有違背？如果有的話，這個公司內部的廣告刊登準則就大有問題。我的意思只是幫助說我用一個實名制的案例來告訴部長，我再一次強調，我沒有說它詐騙，因為我沒有辦法查，但我只是覺得除非這個出資者Ambev不是巴西這家公司，它是另外一家相同的公司，我不知道，我也沒辦法查，我只能google，你們可以去查，你們可以用這個案例來查到底為什麼那10%還存在，就已經實名制了，雖然已經大幅下降，看得到數發部在努力，但是那10%是怎麼來的？我只是舉這個例子告訴你，會不會那10%的貓膩就藏在這細節裡面，就是對於出資公司的審查合不合理，它的實名制到底是怎麼運作去登錄實名制的，我可不可以路上隨便撿到一張身分證就說這個是我？我可不可以自己隨便弄個公司就說有公司、有實名制？可不可以這樣？我不知道啦！我的意思只是舉這個例子來告訴部長，這個應該是一個可以把那10%同時解決的可能方向。"],["黃部長彥男：我們會再跟Meta就廣告刊登準則仔細討論，希望能夠把這個降低，就是源頭管理，如果它源頭能夠管理得好，會減少我們後面很多麻煩，我們會再繼續努力。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我只是提供給你，你們可以朝這個方向，我就把實名制的抓出來，看起來就是不合理。最後，本席每次看到這種新聞都很難過，這個是被詐騙1,200萬元，母女就輕生的新聞，所以本席為什麼說4年只會問你這個問題！除非在4年內有一天詐騙幾乎很少，就跟其他案件一樣，社會總會有一些不守規矩的人，但如果它的比率都是異常，像臺灣的詐騙比率這麼高，本席就會問你，你站在這裡、我站在這裡，至少我們還有3年的時間，我就會一直問你這個問題，因為每次這種新聞一出來，我都覺得很難過，這只是冰山一角，從你的數字統計就知道，其實還有很多的案例，只是或許有些人就默默承受了。本席為什麼一直強調數發部對於這件事情的工作？你要預算、要法令的修改，本席都很支持，我們一起來，只講卻沒有給你工具，你也做不了，所以我常常講立法院是你的後盾，我們站在民意的角度，我們認為人民的痛苦在哪裡，我們幫人民質詢、幫人民監督，同時也是協助你，希望立法院成為你們的後盾，大家跟業者一起合作，把臺灣的詐騙打到讓它活不下去，好不好！謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在請魯明哲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-2","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","黃健豪","林楚茵","游顥","葛如鈞"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}