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請陳主委好 請陳代理主委"},{"start":31.829,"end":41.023,"text":"邱委員長 主委長 幾項問題請教主委就是上一期我們的預算審查我記得沒有錯的話大概整個公平會的預算我們是減列100萬在委員會審查的時候是凍結"},{"start":43.871,"end":60.767,"text":"各科目大概加總期要凍結430萬所以是全力支持公平會的這個相關的預算然後讓你們業務能夠順利去執行但是很可惜的啊很遺憾的在在院會有國民黨跟這個民主黨提案把你們業務費"},{"start":62.635,"end":73.806,"text":"檢列三層不是檢列 要凍結三層業務費大概4500左右三層大概就大概就1500萬對不對那你凍結業務費還要解凍這凍結三層對你業務推廣會不會造成影響"},{"start":80.523,"end":105.981,"text":"這個一定是有影響的只有在案件的查處上比如說同仁到外面去調查案子還有內部的召開相關的會議等等這個三減數當然會對業務推展會有影響是啊又要馬而跑又要不給馬而吃草沒有這種道理啊要行政部門積極查處積極作為你又預算又給他檢列業務費是執行相關的公平會業務最重要的預算對不對"},{"start":107.185,"end":124.021,"text":"檢定三分之一耶所以你們的工作能量三分之二當然巧婦難為無米之炊你也難去做到大家的期待跟要求因為你們預算不足委會是專業審查我們各黨派都有"},{"start":125.583,"end":152.163,"text":"也經過好好的討論 也經過專業的評估才會做成這樣預算的決議凍結430萬 那時候各科目是合理的凍結凍結 然後大部分是書面 對不對而且才減列100萬那很可惜在院會這種結果您也說了 這個會對你們業務推動造成影響影響最大的部分是哪一方面的業務"},{"start":153.763,"end":155.827,"text":"如果以三減數最高比例應該是國際業務三的60%"},{"start":160.539,"end":187.641,"text":"那這個部分的話就是影響到我們對國際間的互動還有一些對國際的承諾啦譬如說我們是APEC資料庫的建制單位我們是受APEC委託來建制這個國際的競爭法的資料庫您知道凍結你們的預算的這個提案啊這些提案的都不是經濟委員會委員這些委員從來沒有在經濟委員會待過也從來沒有對貴會質詢過可以說讓說他對貴會的業務完全不了解就天外飛來一筆"},{"start":189.028,"end":194.271,"text":"隨他喜好 隨他的心情 大逼一揮就三層三層四層四層 五層五層國會墮落於此啊 莫以為勝啊又要求你們這個什麼樣樣都要做得好 又不給你們預算不只在公平會 每一個部位都碰到這種問題哪一家業務員沒說好就把你們這個數了半天 把你們這個說了半天"},{"start":217.182,"end":241.56,"text":"然後問題是 你沒有預算給他 沒有預算給你 各部會他沒有辦法好好去執行所以為此公務人員是一個國家運作穩定的力量那國家最不穩定的力量 在立法院再進一步說國家最大的亂源之一 在立法院"},{"start":245.447,"end":256.774,"text":"所以我們盡量在這個亂源之中保留一個我們的使命感我們的責任感讓這個亂流不至於失控所以真的是難為你們所以我這邊也不忍在你們業務上有更多的苛責因為預算被凍結到這種程度我請教幾個問題就是說"},{"start":274.517,"end":302.754,"text":"工評會這個主動立案跟民眾檢舉的案件啊這部分這個我希望能夠多一點主動查處就是說這個你們從統計年報來看你們主動調查的案件是逐人遞檢那這部分呢大部分是很多你們立案的案件就是這個檢舉的案件占多多數所以為什麼會有這種狀況呢那個主委你們說明一下"},{"start":304.4,"end":318.821,"text":"我想我們基本上在主動調查部分還是非常積極主要是從媒體上或是從一些相關的訊息管道如果我們知道有一些違反公平法我們就會主動那主動案件的減少它背後的原因當然很多"},{"start":319.702,"end":338.551,"text":"那我覺得當然不排除我們會裡面可能未來要更精進這個訊息取得管道讓我們有更多的機會可以知道說可能的違法案件在哪裡你們人力的編制是多少人人力的編制人力大概200人總共總會大概200多人220人左右"},{"start":343.207,"end":366.034,"text":"這個大家都夠病就是說有不實廣告的狀況充斥在這個所有的這個平台或者媒體對不對所以你要不要特別去主動去查處不實廣告不實廣告你有時候從這個這個藥品啊或者是這個其他的產品啊或者是這個投資啊所以你們要有一個"},{"start":367.094,"end":388.786,"text":"分組針對不同的產品去做主動的查處特別是現在很多的不管是電台電視台或者是廣播或者是平面媒體或者是所謂的社群平台都有很多保健食品的廣告"},{"start":390.202,"end":409.332,"text":"而且啦,保健食品它的這個占的篇幅還蠻長的,連每個廣告時段都有這時候他用這個,我也不知道是真是假啦,他用這個專業的醫師來做推薦他用名人來推薦,都是保健食品,說他療效多好而且這個廣告的時間蠻長的"},{"start":415.306,"end":422.739,"text":"你看每天你去看這個電視台到底他們所這個販售的所廣告的這個保健食品"},{"start":424.281,"end":449.858,"text":"到底是曾市委有沒有誇大這裡面有沒有去調查因為剛剛委員特別關切這個保健食品還有他們通常誇稱療效這部分其實是衛福部我們在部會分工上來講是屬於衛福部要來主管那當然如果不落入這個衛福部主管的部分但是它也是不實廣告嘛對 它是不實廣告但是因為衛福本身也可以管到關於食品衛生所以責任分工是這個不屬於你們的業務囉"},{"start":450.438,"end":465.079,"text":"就是比較涉及到專業 譬如說宣稱療效保健食品宣稱可以治療癌症等等這些部分因為涉及到醫療專業所以在當初的分工上是有衛福部那你們布施廣告是針對哪一種類型的布施廣告就是跟譬如說食品"},{"start":465.74,"end":493.183,"text":"那食品也有食藥署啊食品也有他的專業啊因為衛福部本身也有查處不實廣告的權限啊那我疑惑是說你們查處不實廣告是針對哪一類型的這個不實廣告就是我們其實沒有設定說特別類型但是如果是主管機關他可以優先來處理的就由他們優先但這就變成說全職劃分的這個模糊啦有時候衛福部說不實廣告是公平衛福部要去管的公平衛福部說你專業是應該衛福部要去管的"},{"start":494.447,"end":509.045,"text":"到最後沒有人管我們是一般的不實廣告啦就是衛福部如果認定說這其實很為一般的不實廣告就是譬如說衛福部認為說這個廣告其實沒有涉及到療效單純就是一般的不實的廣告誇大的廣告這會把案子移到我們這邊我們就會處理這樣的廣告"},{"start":509.565,"end":534.605,"text":"那剛剛委員垂詢的這個監測部分所以你就沒有辦法去主動啦主動的部分其實我們有做蠻多的特別是在不動產的環境所以我覺得各部位你要跟各部位去釐清啦特別是公共衛護部這種保健食品或者是這個有全身療效的部分你們分工要明確而且你們是要聯合去處理專業的部位他們來來定裁處的部位是你們去你可以去主動去調查"},{"start":535.686,"end":554.916,"text":"主動去了解調查者已請在惠衛福部表達意見衛福部認為說它的確有誇大療效它實際也超出不實廣告犯案那查處應該是由你們來裁罰才對啊因為依照衛福部它本身的法規規定它知道發現這個誇大療效其實它本身是有裁處的權利啊"},{"start":555.834,"end":578.371,"text":"就是只要是認定是衛護部他們的所謂誇大療效那你們有沒有採取的權利我們採取的權利就是剛剛跟委員報告一般的不實廣告就是說雖然他感覺要涉及到保健食品但是他沒有到那個誇稱療效你越講我越糊塗我越聽不清楚我們其實跟很多機關都有分過我這邊我都有一點一知半解那你一般人怎麼去了解說你們到底插手是哪一部分是是"},{"start":579.4,"end":605.693,"text":"因為主要是看特別法跟公平法之間的關係有些特別法它本身就賦予主管機關一些查處不實廣告的權利那你們過去一年查處不實廣告有幾案63件 處罰的部分樣態能不能提供資料給我就是說你63件是查處哪些不實廣告那廣告的內容是什麼 參與是什麼所以我們會後提供委員好 63件是不是那裁罰金是多少錢"},{"start":609.954,"end":612.702,"text":"沒關係啦 那會後再提供啦會後我把資料提供給你好 謝謝好 謝謝邱志維"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":509,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時44分）謝謝主席。有請陳主委。"],["主席：請陳代理主委。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員早。"],["邱委員志偉：主委早。幾項問題請教主委。上會期的預算審查，我記得沒有錯的話，大概整個公平會的預算是減列100萬，在委員會審查時各科目加總起來大概凍結430萬，可說全力支持公平會的相關預算，讓你們的業務能夠順利去執行。但很可惜、很遺憾的是，國民黨跟民眾黨在院會提案，把你們的業務費凍結三成。你們的業務費大概4,500萬，三成大概就是1,500萬，對不對？因為凍結業務費，所以還要解凍，請問凍結三成對你們的業務推廣會不會造成影響？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：這一定是有影響的，譬如對案件的查處，譬如同仁到外面調查案子，還有內部召開相關會議等等，所以這個刪減數當然會對業務推展有一定的……"],["邱委員志偉：是啊！又要馬兒跑，又不給馬兒吃草，沒有這種道理！要行政部門積極查處、積極作為，結果又把預算減列？業務費是執行與公平會相關業務最重要的預算，對不對？現在少了三分之一，所以你們的工作能量只剩下三分之二。當然，巧婦難為無米之炊，你也很難達到大家的期待跟要求，畢竟你們的預算不足。委員會是專業審查，各黨派都有，也都經過好好的討論與專業的評估，才會做成凍結430萬的預算決議。那時候各科目都是合理凍結，大部分是提書面，對不對？而且才減列100萬。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["邱委員志偉：可惜在院會卻變成這種結果。你也說這會對你們業務推動造成影響，影響最大的是哪一方面的業務？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：以刪減數來說，最高比例應該是國際業務刪了60%，這部分影響到我們與國際間的互動，還有一些對國際的承諾，譬如我們是APEC資料庫的建置單位，我們受APEC委託來建置國際競爭法的資料庫。"],["邱委員志偉：凍結你們預算的提案委員，都不是經濟委員會的委員！這些委員從來沒有在經濟委員會待過，也從來沒有對貴會質詢過，可以說他們對貴會的業務完全不了解，就天外飛來一筆，隨他喜好，隨他的心情，大筆一揮就刪了三成、四成、五成，國會墮落莫此為甚！既要求你們做事，又要求你們樣樣都要做好，卻又不給你們預算！這點不只公平會，每個部會都碰到這問題，哪一項業務沒做好就數落半天、說半天，問題是：沒有把預算給他！沒有預算給各部會的話，就沒有辦法好好去執行。我一直認為公務人員是國家運作穩定的力量，而國家最不穩定的力量在立法院！再進一步說，國家最大的亂源之一在立法院！所以我們要儘量在亂源之中保留我們的使命感與責任感，讓這個亂不至於失控，真的是難為你們了。所以我在這邊不忍對你們的業務有更多苛責，畢竟預算被凍結到這種程度。","我請教幾個問題，對於公平會主動立案跟民眾檢舉的案件，我希望能多一點主動查處。從統計年報來看，你們主動調查的案件逐年遞減，而你們立案的案件以檢舉的案件占大多數，為什麼會有這種狀況？主委，你能不能說明一下？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：基本上我們在主動調查部分還是非常積極，主要是從媒體上或從一些相關的訊息管道，如果我們知道有違反公平法的話，我們就會主動。至於主動案件的減少，背後原因當然很多，不排除會裡面未來要更精進訊息取得管道，讓我們有更多機會可以知道可能的違法案件在哪裡？這一點我們會持續的去……"],["邱委員志偉：你們人力的編制是多少人？就是針對不實廣告或主動去查處的人力編制。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：總共總會大概兩百多人，兩百二十人左右。"],["邱委員志偉：大家所詬病的是，不實廣告充斥於所有的平臺或媒體，對不對？所以你要不要特別去主動查處不實廣告？譬如藥品、或其他產品、或者是投資啦，所以你們要有一個分組，針對不同的產品去做主動的查處，特別是現在有很多地方，不管是電視臺，或者是廣播，或者是平面媒體，或者是所謂的社群平臺，都有很多保健食品的廣告，而且保健食品它所占的篇幅還滿長的，每個廣告時段幾乎都有，我也不知道是真是假啦，就是它用專業的醫師來做推薦，或是用名人來推薦保健食品，廣告上都會說它的療效有多好有多好，而且廣告的時間還滿長的，不信的話，每天你可以去看電視臺，到底他們所販售的、所廣告的這些保健食品，到底是真是偽，有沒有誇大，這個你們有沒有去調查？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為剛剛委員特別關切保健食品的部分，還有他們通常誇稱療效的部分，職責其實是歸衛福部，我們在部會分工上來講，這是屬於衛福部要來主管，當然如果不落入衛福部主管的部分，案子會……"],["邱委員志偉：可是它也是不實廣告嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，它是不實廣告，但是因為衛福部本身也可以管到關於食品衛生的部分……"],["邱委員志偉：所以在責任分工上這個並不屬於你們的業務？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：就是當它涉及到比較專業，譬如說宣稱療效，保健食品宣稱可以治療癌症等等，這些部分因為涉及到醫療專業，所以在當初的分工上是由衛福部主管，當然衛福部如果……"],["邱委員志偉：你們所處理的不實廣告是針對哪一種類型的不實廣告？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：就是跟譬如說食品、保健食品……"],["邱委員志偉：食品也有食藥署啊，食品也有它的專業啊！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，這個因為衛福部本身也有查處不實廣告的權限啦，所以……"],["邱委員志偉：我的疑惑是說，你們查處的不實廣告是針對哪一類型的不實廣告？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們其實沒有設定特別的類型，但如果是主管機關可以優先來處理的，就由他們優先，如果……"],["邱委員志偉：現在這就變成是權責劃分上的模糊啦，有時候衛福部說不實廣告是公平會要去管的，公平會又說這在專業上應該是衛福部要去管的，結果到最後變成沒有人管。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們是一般的不實廣告啦，就是衛福部如果認定說這其實跟……"],["邱委員志偉：何謂一般的不實廣告？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：就是譬如說衛福部認為這個廣告其實沒有涉及到療效，單純就是一般的不實廣告、誇大的廣告，就會把案子移到我們這邊，我們就會處理這樣的廣告。至於剛剛委員垂詢的監測部分，其實我們……"],["邱委員志偉：所以你就沒有辦法去主動啦！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：主動的部分，其實我們也做滿多的，特別是不動產的廣告。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我覺得各部會，你要去跟各部會做釐清啦，特別是跟衛福部有關的這些保健食品，或者是宣稱療效部分，你們的分工要更明確，而且你們是要聯合去處理，專業的部分由他們來認定，裁處的部分是你們去處理，你可以主動去調查、主動去了解，調查之後移請或再會衛福部表達意見，衛福部認為它的確有誇大療效，它實際上已經超出不實廣告的範圍，那查處部分應該是由你們來裁罰才對啊！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，因為依照衛福部本身的法規規定，它只要有發現誇大療效，其實它本身是有裁處的權力啊，就是只要被衛福部認定他們是屬於所謂的誇大療效。"],["邱委員志偉：那你們有沒有裁處的權力啊？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們裁處的權力就是剛剛跟委員報告的，是針對一般的不實廣告，就是說雖然它感覺上涉及到保健食品，但是它沒有到那個誇稱療效的地步，衛福部……"],["邱委員志偉：你越講我越糊塗，越聽不清楚了。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們其實跟很多機關都有分工。"],["邱委員志偉：連我都有點一知半解了，這樣一般人要怎麼去了解你們到底是負責查處哪一部分。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是、是，因為主要是看特別法跟公平法之間的關係，有一些特別法本身就賦予主管機關查處不實廣告的權力啦，那個部分就會歸給主管機關。"],["邱委員志偉：過去一年你們查處的不實廣告有幾案？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：63件。"],["邱委員志偉：63件？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：處罰的部分。"],["邱委員志偉：樣態能不能提供資料給我？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：可以、可以。"],["邱委員志偉：就是這63件你們是查處哪些不實廣告，以及廣告的內容是什麼？裁罰是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，我們會後提供給委員。"],["邱委員志偉：你說一共63件，請問裁罰的金額是多少錢？沒關係啦，這部分會後再提供給我。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：會後我把資料提供委員。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱志偉委員。","下一位請謝衣鳯委員質詢，謝召委質詢後，我們休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-2","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","陳培瑜"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}