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注定有你統一臺灣這個我要辦不來我們心法上它有可能有其他商貨犯罪有可能你商貨他人犯罪或商貨他人推翻一個他有可能會構成商貨罪所以我就說個案上他要去認定而不是說單純的言論本身是不是構成犯罪那我們反滲透法的主張採取非和平手段危害我國儲家主權這在講什麼"},{"start":333.831,"end":358.928,"text":"這個是我們境外敵對勢力的定義反滲透法就是敵對勢力什麼叫做敵對勢力它在我們第二條有規定你要主張戰爭或你要主張用非和平的方式來影響國家安全那現在全世界有誰主張要用非和平的手段來危害中華民國主權"},{"start":359.93,"end":374.649,"text":"各位這個就要個案去認定,這個不是個案我沒有辦法判斷,因為我們的反省鬥法沒有規範是哪一個國家全世界啊,全世界啊,全世界有對一個國家啦主張說要用非和平手段危害我國主權"},{"start":375.902,"end":395.89,"text":"我剛已經跟各位報告所以我們反制鬥法它沒有規範是哪一個國家喔它是用敵對勢力這個名詞去定義非合併的方法去影響國家安全它不講哪一個國家,是要個案去認定好,那最近陸委會啊這個針對一位中國人在台灣主張武統已經說這個人要掛回去"},{"start":400.765,"end":422.457,"text":"這個會跟法務部有關嗎?這沒有 這個是移民的問題 入境移民法 或者是兩岸關係條例所以這叫你們都沒有關係 陸委會叫移民署好 那如果這個人他主張武統 然後他接收到敵對勢力的資助 就叫你們有關係嗎?"},{"start":424.961,"end":441.798,"text":"這個我們反滲透法他如果受到這個這個這個傷害來源的的資助指示委託資助他當然有可能會構成相關反滲透法的相關規範阿就叫法務部相關的單位有關的喔如果他涉及犯罪如果啦對對對就是說這一"},{"start":443.92,"end":447.203,"text":"這中國人是台灣主流的事情委託指示 資助他如果去插頭說指示 委託 資助就進化敵對勢力了指示 委託 資助那就委婉反省都完嘛"},{"start":460.574,"end":480.125,"text":"法律法律規範是這樣 受到境外敵對勢力的委託 資助 接下來做一個行為那行為也許是選罷法 也許是自由法 也許是相關的法律規範後面的規範 它再結合起來構成犯罪不是單純的受到指揮資助 本身會構成犯罪後面有另外一個行為這事情是法務部相關的單位 機關"},{"start":487.301,"end":496.033,"text":"就是你們查的嗎?如果他構成犯罪的話,當然檢察官他要依法偵辦OK,好,這個是關於這個接下來啊,剛才吳思耀委員有講這個審委技術嘛"},{"start":499.478,"end":520.698,"text":"請問你現在對防堵認知作戰,你的報告裡面有寫防堵認知作戰跟偽假訊息,不管透過影音圖文,你們現在是被動處理,還是主動處理?各位報告,我們調查局就這個深圍本身,它有成立一個小組,就這個它有積極在處理,它不是被動,它有積極在處理"},{"start":521.579,"end":530.201,"text":"譬如說我們去找省委,我們去找省委,像我叫柯總召,我們就去找地檢署,像我們有去找嘛有些人可能去警察叫說,這要我用,這樣不行嘛這些案子查,現在查到這個案子,現在辦的這個情形是什麼,很難查"},{"start":544.875,"end":571.716,"text":"或是查出來後,真的有人因為做這些的東西現在去用處罰,或是去用抓去關押嗎?相關的審委,相關法令近期來幾個修法,其實我們都把審委加進去,譬如說審委的這個姓名啊,譬如說審委的詐欺啊甚至我們審委的選罷法,都有一些犯罪規定,現在都加加進來了所以說,實務上一定有人因為審委被入罪的啦,判罪的一定有"},{"start":572.276,"end":596.718,"text":"但是我手上沒有資料你把我唸幾行而已你以為我去跟省委說我沒民進黨那剛剛我們看有沒有構成妨礙民意就省委這部分來妨礙民意的話我們修法未來也會加重它獨立於另外一個比較重的刑責但如果現行法省委沒有特別規範的話它如果構成妨礙民意或毀謗我們現行法上刑法310條309都可以處理啊那也是妨礙民意而已嘛對"},{"start":599.7,"end":620.59,"text":"就叫寫一些文字不太一樣,沒有特別就對了,所以你叫人家念這個叫跟姓有關的,就是跟你念三四行嘛,其他就沒有了,其他就說政治的啦我們選罷法就有,選罷法在去年修法之後就把身為相關的處罰行為它都有規範"},{"start":624.051,"end":636.855,"text":"那規範是就是加重就獨立一個犯罪就獨立一個犯罪好我希望這個你來加強因為這越來越嚴重因為現在來如果選舉或是啟動什麼罷免如果有這些東西出來可能會影響整個台灣的政體好阿在法務部加油好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1014,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（11時）主席，請次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["王委員義川：黃次長好。民眾想要了解一下幾個問題，我們先看看你的見解。第一個，民意代表立法委員率眾包圍法院，率眾包圍檢察署，有沒有違法？"],["黃次長謀信：因為這是個案，法律上當然會有相關的妨礙公務……"],["王委員義川：本席不是說個案，本席是說……"],["黃次長謀信：對。我是說個案要就事實認定啦！從抽象來說，相關的法律規定當中，當然有妨礙公務罪的相關規範，如果用強暴、脅迫影響公務行使的話，當然是有可能。但個案是不是符合？當然要個案認定。"],["王委員義川：可是法院周邊不是不能有這樣的活動嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：對，不能夠集會遊行。但那是有沒有違反集會遊行法的問題，現在委員問的是有沒有構成犯罪。"],["王委員義川：對。"],["黃次長謀信：有沒有構成犯罪就要回到刑法，有沒有可能構成妨礙公務的執行。"],["王委員義川：就是有沒有妨礙公務。"],["黃次長謀信：對，前提是要有妨礙公務的執行。"],["王委員義川：圍起來時，如果沒有妨礙公務就沒有關係？"],["黃次長謀信：對。他有沒有犯罪和有沒有違反集會遊行法，有時候不太一樣。"],["王委員義川：本席知道。"],["黃次長謀信：因為集會遊行法比較屬於行政程序法。"],["王委員義川：立法委員帶民眾去包圍地方法院，還在那裡喊得大小聲，這樣可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我剛才已經回答委員的問題，這要回到妨礙公務的構成要件，用強暴、脅迫或相關妨礙公務執行的構成要件去看，而不是針對他能不能集會這件事情。"],["王委員義川：好。第二個，請問受刑人或者被羈押的人要外出，不管是去醫院，或者是家人病危，或者是奔喪，你們有一張申請表可以填嘛！填了之後你們會審核，如果核准了，按照規定，核准的時間要不要通知家屬？"],["黃次長謀信：根據羈押法和監獄行刑法，還有受刑人相關的返家探視辦法，就通知家屬這件事情是有一定的規範啦！核准前當然不可能通知啊！"],["王委員義川：核准後會不會告訴他們幾點幾分到？"],["黃次長謀信：這其實有一些安全上的考慮，原則上不會通知啦！我們不會通知家屬幾點幾分到。"],["王委員義川：原則上不會通知家屬。請問誰會知道？"],["黃次長謀信：有些是要戒護嘛！因為監所可能要戒護，按照監獄行刑法的規定……"],["王委員義川：警方可能會知道，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：如果需要戒護的話。"],["王委員義川：警方知道之後可以公告周知嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：這是警察執行職務內控的問題，警察執行職務應該要有這方面的認知。"],["王委員義川：站在戒護的角度呢？"],["黃次長謀信：我們當然不希望。"],["王委員義川：不希望警察局對外透露任何訊息。"],["黃次長謀信：如果透露的話，就違反這個規範的目的。我們規範的目的是當他在外面時，因為會有安全上的考量嘛！或者是受刑人本身的考量，所以我們當然不希望這個消息被太多人知道，怕會影響相關的戒護。"],["王委員義川：OK，好，這是第二個問題。第三，最近有中國人士在臺灣拍影片，主張武力統一臺灣。在臺灣做這樣的主張有沒有違法？"],["黃次長謀信：這涉及到言論自由和相關犯罪的界線問題。當然，我們要保障言論自由，如果他的言論自由超過憲法規定的界線，其實有可能會構成犯罪，所以國防部就提了一個宣誓效忠的相關草案，把這個部分納入。如果你對敵對團體宣誓效忠的話，雖然它是一個言論，但也有可能會構成犯罪。所以基本上是透過法律上的保留，把它規定成犯罪，如果沒有觸犯規定，只是單純言論的話，言論本身的自由，我們也應該要保障。"],["王委員義川：你的意思是說，在臺灣，可以大聲喊武統臺灣，非和平手段統一臺灣？"],["黃次長謀信：這要就個案認定。我是說基本上言論本身是自由的，但言論自由還是有界線的嘛！一定要有界線嘛！"],["王委員義川：這個部分你要和大家說清楚。今天這個人，不管他是中國人還是臺灣人，不管他怎麼來臺灣的，在臺灣主張武力統一臺灣，這樣要不要偵辦？"],["黃次長謀信：委員，就刑法而言，他可能會有煽惑犯罪之嫌，你煽惑他人犯罪，或煽惑他人推翻一個政府，就有可能構成煽惑罪，所以我說要就個案認定，而不是單純以言論本身認定是不是構成犯罪。"],["王委員義川：反滲透法的主張是採取非和平手段危害我國國家主權，這是說明什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：這是我們對境外敵對勢力的定義啦！是反滲透法對敵對勢力的定義。什麼叫做敵對勢力？它在第二條有規定，如果你主張戰爭，或主張用非和平的方式影響國家安全，這就是所謂的敵對勢力。"],["王委員義川：現在全世界有誰主張用非和平的手段危害中華民國主權？"],["黃次長謀信：這個要就個案認定。因為這個不是個案，我沒有辦法判斷，而且反滲透法並沒有規範是哪一個國家。"],["王委員義川：本席是問你，現在全世界有哪一個國家，主張用非和平手段危害我國主權？"],["黃次長謀信：我剛才已經向委員報告，反滲透法沒有規範是哪一個國家喔！它是用敵對勢力這個名詞去定義，以非和平的方法影響國家安全，並沒有指明是哪一個國家，這部分要個案認定。"],["王委員義川：最近陸委會針對一位中國人祭出處分，因為她在臺灣主張武統，陸委會已經說要把這個人趕回去，這和法務部有關嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有，這是關係到移民的問題，是依據入出境移民法或者是兩岸關係條例，因為她沒有……"],["王委員義川：所以這和你們沒有關係？是陸委會和移民署的業務。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["王委員義川：如果這個人主張武統，然後他接收到敵對勢力的資助，這樣就和你們有關係了嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：依據反滲透法，他如果受到煽惑來源的資助……"],["王委員義川：指示、委託、資助。"],["黃次長謀信：指示、委託、資助，當然有可能會違反反滲透法的相關規範。"],["王委員義川：這樣就和法務部等相關單位有關了。"],["黃次長謀信：如果他涉及犯罪的話。"],["王委員義川：如果啦！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["王委員義川：就是這個中國人在臺灣主張這些事情……"],["黃次長謀信：對，委託、指示、資助。"],["王委員義川：如果被查到境外敵對勢力有指示、委託、資助，就會違反反滲透法嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：反滲透法的規範是這樣，收到境外敵對勢力的委託、資助，接下來做一個行為，那個行為也許關係到選罷法，也許關係到集會遊行法，也許是相關的法律規範，依據後面的規範，兩者結合起來就構成犯罪，不是單純受到指揮、資助就會構成犯罪。"],["王委員義川：對，沒錯，關係到他之後做的事情。"],["黃次長謀信：對，後面有另外一個行為。"],["王委員義川：如果有這些事情，法務部等相關單位、機關要負責查察嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：如果他構成犯罪，檢察官當然要依法偵辦。"],["王委員義川：OK，好。剛才吳思瑤委員有提到深偽技術嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["王委員義川：現在對於防堵認知作戰，在你們的報告裡面有寫到，防堵認知作戰和違假訊息，不管是透過影音、圖文，你們現在是被動處理還是主動處理？"],["黃次長謀信：調查局就深偽有成立一個小組，這個部分他們有積極在處理，他們不是被動的，有積極在處理。"],["王委員義川：不是的。例如我遇到深偽案件，所以和柯總召到地檢署提告，有的人可能是去警察局報案，因為這是不對的行為，但現在的狀況是這類案子很難追查，或是查出來之後，真的有人因為做這些東西被處分，還是被抓去關嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：針對相關的深偽法令，其實近期幾項修法我們都有把深偽加進去，比如深偽的性影音、深偽的詐欺，甚至是深偽的選罷法，這些都有一些犯罪規定，現在都有加進來了，所以實務上一定有人因為深偽被判罪，只是我手上沒有資料，因為這個……"],["王委員義川：你剛才只說了幾項而已，例如有人用深偽技術誣指本席罵民進黨，這種案件你們有在偵辦嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：要看有沒有構成妨礙名譽。深偽這部分的妨礙名譽，未來修法也會加重，另外獨立一個比較重的刑責。如果現行法對深偽沒有特別規範的話，例如構成妨礙名譽或毀謗，現行的刑法第三百一十條、第三百零九條都可以處理啊！"],["王委員義川：那只是妨礙名譽而已嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["王委員義川：就像寫一些文字罵本席，並沒有特別的處分。"],["黃次長謀信：對，就是妨礙名譽。"],["王委員義川：你剛才唸到和性有關的規範就包含了三、四項，其他的就沒有了。"],["黃次長謀信：對，那是新的規範。"],["王委員義川：其他的就沒有了。例如政治，像現在……"],["黃次長謀信：選罷法就有相關規範。去年選罷法修法的時候，針對深偽的相關觸法行為都有規範。"],["王委員義川：所謂的規範就是加重處分，就是用……"],["黃次長謀信：就是獨立一項犯罪。"],["王委員義川：好。本席希望你們要加強這個部分，因為這個問題越來越嚴重，例如遇到選舉或是現在啟動的罷免案，如果出現這些東西可能會影響整個臺灣的政治，請法務部加油，謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","柯建銘","王義川","吳思瑤","黃國昌","王鴻薇","沈發惠","傅崐萁","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00011"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}