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有請次長麻煩次長也請那個中署長再請洪司長還有劉司長法律事務司的劉司長還有法治司的洪司長"},{"start":43.362,"end":70.435,"text":"委員好是 次長好 還有司長署長們好我在這邊呢 首先我想要請教各位大家知道陸委會最近有下令要求所有的公教人員要簽名拒絕有沒有這個大陸的身份證跟居住證請問次長您簽了嗎各位報告我簽了您簽了 對好 然後署長呢"},{"start":73.911,"end":90.511,"text":"署長有沒有簽名拒絕?有沒有簽了那個拒絕書?哦,看起來署長可能還沒有簽。來,市長。簽了。簽了。好,人家都簽了。那麼我想請問一下,如果不簽的話,會被處罰嗎?"},{"start":93.579,"end":120.334,"text":"沒有沒有這樣子說明沒有說因為不簽會被處罰是不是請次長可以再重複再大聲一點告訴我們如果不簽的話會被處罰嗎他那個當事人委會先我們但我們他沒有說不簽會被處罰處罰他必須要有法源的依據啊處罰要有法源的依據那剛剛因為次長有特別有講到法律保留原則"},{"start":122.101,"end":140.489,"text":"可以跟我們民眾解釋一下跟我們大家解釋一下什麼叫法律保留原則法律保留就是涉及到這一個人民的權益的部分要透過國家立法機關的立法繼續保留那法律保留分為絕對保留跟相對保留如果絕對保留涉及到人身自由的部分他就絕對一定要立法院授權的法律才能規範"},{"start":142.35,"end":167.731,"text":"那相對的法律保留它就是說它不是涉及到人身自由但是有可能會涉及到人民的權益的那基本上它原則上是需要有一個法律或者法律授權的命令來做相關的規範是的好 非常謝謝次長的說明那簡單來說如果說今天行政機關要處罰人民的話是不是應該要在法律裡面明確規定構成要件要清楚違反了構成要件才可以處罰嘛"},{"start":168.832,"end":196.821,"text":"在我們行政法法裡面有這樣的規定對不對對行政法法就這個有特別的規範是好那麼現在呢在兩岸人民關係條例裡面的第九條第九之一條第九之一條裡面只有禁止台灣地區的人民不可以有大陸地區的戶籍涉戶籍還有領友護照那麼所以今天如果說是"},{"start":198.642,"end":225.939,"text":"陸委會因為說某個台灣人民他在大陸地區有居住證所以就予以處罰這樣合理嗎各位報告這涉及到兩岸關係條例它並不是本部主管的法規啦所以我們在法律解釋上面嘛我剛剛跟你講了這個法律規定嘛所以必須要明確化嘛對不對行政法法上的確是規範要處罰但必須要法律免定嘛"},{"start":226.719,"end":254.755,"text":"至於這個兩岸關係條例它特別的規範我們必須要尊重主管機關因為我們畢竟北澳不必定不是主管機關啦市長你客氣了啦就法律解釋的部分我相信您絕對會解釋的比那個陸委會要好要更專業更權威我現在要談的就是其實在這裡就要清楚的告訴軍公教還有現在也擴大到財團法人等等的相關的職員工其實不簽"},{"start":257.295,"end":276.311,"text":"這個陸委會所要求的有沒有具有大陸的身份證居住證等等的這些表單其實是不違法而且也不能被處罰與法無拒更何況陸委會是搞不清楚嗎教師是公務員嗎請問市長您知道教師是不是公務員"},{"start":282.346,"end":306.284,"text":"公務員他有廣義跟狹義的定義嘛那我不曉得他的主管是所以他不屬於公務員法裡面所講的公務員我們現在很清楚知道除了兼任行政主管的教授才可以被視為是公務員否則的話基本上一般的教師他不是屬於公務員所以我要談就是陸委會我都不知道我真的下次我認為說陸委會的這個法規會他的"},{"start":310.547,"end":336.495,"text":"應該可能要考慮是不是要刪他們的預算因為沒有專業然後呢又這個要求人事總處要求這個教育部發這種違法濫權然後要求人民要自行表態我對國家效忠的這種簽名拒絕單我認為真是荒謬至極"},{"start":340.266,"end":351.154,"text":"這條的規範它的規範主體是什麼可不可以裁罰怎麼裁罰大委員可能要問陸委會我想說這邊可能要請法務部來寫一個專案報告啦針對就是到底陸委會有沒有這個權利可以處罰有沒有他的這樣子如果說處罰的話有沒有違反行政法法這應該也是屬於法務部可以提供的諮詢意見我想這個問題我就先問到這邊"},{"start":366.545,"end":378.255,"text":"那接下來呢我想要請教這個次長的就是法務部的今年的預算基本上剛剛其實副總長已經有問過了今年預算是有增加的"},{"start":379.645,"end":401.214,"text":"增加了多少億3減後的比較大概多了12億所以還是有多12億但是12億基本上都是用在人事費用因為我們今年增加了150、60位的員額所以它基本上就是用在人事費用還有相關既有的員額的執行的調整所以都是人事費的增加"},{"start":402.314,"end":426.853,"text":"但是其實整個公務機關本來就是要遵截經費要在合理的經費範圍運用裡面去好好的去執行業務基本上其實這次的總預算每個部會機關幾乎都有增加而且增加幅度還挺高的我想就這個部分來說的話"},{"start":427.654,"end":443.827,"text":"如果未來真的有自然難行的地方需要最佳預算還是要提早解凍我想法務部這邊呢可以再向我們司法委員會來報告好那接下來我想請教這個次長來我們看一下這個照片您看從這個照片裡面你看到了什麼委員是指拿方面對啊您看到了什麼嗎看到幾位名人政治人物在裡面"},{"start":454.233,"end":475.437,"text":"委員是要講這個就是說戒護就醫的問題嗎?保外就醫還有呢?還是就是他的戒護?我們現在來看一下這個看看吧其實我們作為法律人看到這張照片第一個直覺就是看到了犯罪嫌疑人柯文哲"},{"start":478.226,"end":488.051,"text":"然後另外一個就是保外就醫的貪污犯陳水扁請問這次矯正署派了多少的警力去戒護就醫"},{"start":492.181,"end":512.824,"text":"去戒護 戒護奔商嗎對 戒護奔商北索有八名警力 但是也有政風人員所以總共有多少位總共十位總共十位去戒護柯文哲怕他在上禮當中跑掉"},{"start":513.629,"end":530.019,"text":"八位是介護 兩位是事先到告別式的會場先做一些相關流程為了慎重起見 總共十位那請問陳水扁他到現在還是保外就醫你們都不擔心他跑掉嗎他這次參加柯文哲父親的告別式有事先提出核准嗎"},{"start":542.978,"end":552.021,"text":"他有事先跟中間報告每一次都只是報告來我們看一下我們法條怎麼規定法條怎麼規定"},{"start":556.358,"end":578.444,"text":"因為中間 要監獄核准對不對是 中間也有跟他就是說是不是可以請阿扁提早去做年香致意你們都是對陳水扁非常的禮遇客氣他去詢問你可不可以提前告訴我你要參加什麼活動請問您知道他有去參加賀龍夜夜秀嗎他應該是有"},{"start":586.162,"end":614.294,"text":"賀瓏找他賀瓏找他所以角色署也同意了 台中監獄也同意了賀瓏是到他家拜訪的到他家拜訪所以錄了這個節目沒有關係我想請問的就是說陳水扁他參加告別式是與他的醫療有助於他的醫療嗎是他日常生活所需嗎"},{"start":616.69,"end":633.466,"text":"我們原則上都是尊重醫主啊 那中間還有報告我跟您說 只要我當立法委員的一天我只要看到陳水扁出現在公開媒體 我一定會問這個問題請問如果醫主造假醫生會違反 會觸犯什麼樣的刑事責任 會有什麼樣的刑事責任造假是"},{"start":643.783,"end":653.934,"text":"如果是造假應該是偽造文書之類的這因為但是我們尊重醫師有專業的判斷尊重醫師啦所以您就認為說所有的醫生都不可能會有造假是嗎有沒有可能台中監獄基本上也是包庇"},{"start":667.375,"end":673.8,"text":"如果今天一個連獄長他包庇署長您包庇可能會觸犯什麼樣的刑責"},{"start":676.67,"end":698.325,"text":"我想我們心中有一把尺 我們不會去做這些事情是 我想告訴您相關的刑法的法律追溯權的時效是很長的除非你們有信心 民進黨政府一直執政超過20年你們不會有責任否則我告訴您 你們現在的所作所為 大家都在記錄"},{"start":699.997,"end":711.475,"text":"跟委員報告台中監獄一定是依據保外遇制的審核基準去按照規定來辦理的好來接下來我再來講另外一個議題"},{"start":713.055,"end":719.356,"text":"其實從這次看其實這個有關於在偵查期間當中的這個羈押期間是不是有過長的問題不僅是學界也在討論其實實務界很多都在討論這個議題那當然這次柯文哲的事件又讓大家重新的去檢視到底我們現在刑事訴訟法裡面的規定偵查當中的羈押期間讓檢察官有 司法檢察有"},{"start":744.601,"end":766.731,"text":"簡單來說可以最長有四個月的羈押期間有沒有過長請問法務部有去曾經有做過相關的檢討嗎各位報告那歷次有關羈押的修法羈押期間這一定會有做相關的法治上的研究這是絕對會有的是我們看看韓國看看日本人家的一次的羈押時間"},{"start":769.591,"end":782.541,"text":"初次的大概就10天被藥的時候延長也是10天最長最長也是25天韓國也是就是這個初次是10天然後延長的話是不可以超過10天"},{"start":785.086,"end":803.421,"text":"相對起來我們台灣的偵查當中的羈押可以這個押犯人的押犯罪嫌疑人的時間是非常長的這已經是侵害了犯罪嫌疑人的人權我們如果從人權保障的角度來講的話我們其實台灣在這方面是落伍的"},{"start":805.049,"end":830.783,"text":"我相信大家都應該很清楚知道其實羈押制度常常會成為偵查機關取得自白而惡用的手段理論上就是在案件未確定之前應該要尊重要有這個要無罪推定而且要更重視犯罪嫌疑人的人身自由保障"},{"start":832.318,"end":845.233,"text":"那我希望保護部應該要好好的去檢討我們現在的相關偵查當中的羈押規定是不是合理跟世界的潮流跟其他國家相比較來講"},{"start":847.315,"end":875.433,"text":"我們是不是規範的過度有違反不當比例有違背這個比例原則各位報告那羈押期間的長短那涉及到不同的偵查制度不可一概而論那事實上我們相關的羈押我們歷次很多個司法官司事致都有做一些解釋其實這個重點不應該羈押長短也是個原因另外一個應該是著重於羈押要件的嚴格審查還有羈押的整個審核當中你要給他月卷相關的"},{"start":877.135,"end":891.287,"text":"這個程序上的保障事實上後來大法官解釋之後我們相關修法也都朝這個方向去保障申請羈押的流程好我想這個部分的話就是整體一併檢討那最後我很快的來講有關於這個律師職前訓練的事情我們直接跳到相關的法律我要談的是有關於律師職前訓練到底誰才是應該要主要負責"},{"start":903.971,"end":928.985,"text":"依照我們這個現行的律師法裡面的規定律師值錢訓練是由全國律師聯合會辦理當時在2019年修法的時候李友講得非常清楚為了落實律師的自律自治的精神民地律師值錢訓練是由全國律師聯合會自行辦理什麼叫自行辦理錢該誰出"},{"start":933.496,"end":960.117,"text":"法務部出嗎各位報告這一條109條109年修法的時候因為這個歷史法做了非常大幅度的變動所以當時這一條本身在我們歷史法裡面特別規範它的施行日期另外由行政院來定之所以這條本身到目前為止它只要另外要行政第一個時間它才會生效所以你們到目前為止都沒有定施行期間沒有 我們已經報行政院請行政院核定它的時間是 你們什麼時候報的這是109年"},{"start":964.257,"end":986.646,"text":"修正的 到現在為止這個條文都還沒有正式施行就是說這一條要由全聯會來辦理這件事情立法當時就有意的要交由行政院來另行公告他的施行期間所以請問次長現在是行政院還沒有公告嗎我們現在已經請行政院 希望行政院能夠趕快來公告"},{"start":987.226,"end":1012.801,"text":"所以從109年到現在你們都沒有提要請行政院進速公告跟我們報告109年歷史法做了非常非常大幅度的修正我們必須要給歷史界我先講這一條就講這一條我們當時是要讓歷史界有一些時間去新法的適用要不然它的整個變革太大了所以當時是有意的把這個事情往後延好所以六年了"},{"start":1013.681,"end":1030.377,"text":"都還沒有辦法這個全律會都還沒有辦法自行辦理所以呢現在律師職權訓練的這筆費用一直都是由法務部出由我們全民的納稅錢來付是嗎目前在公告之前是的是的所以每年300多萬6年了"},{"start":1034.026,"end":1058.863,"text":"1800多萬我們一直幫全綠會難怪全綠會的那些理事長啦 理監事這麼支持民進黨都是賴清德後援會的律師成員我要講這真的是非常非常不負責任的一個做法謝謝今天次長告訴我原來這個條文到現在都還沒有施行還沒有正式施行"},{"start":1061.092,"end":1086.846,"text":"所以我們這次三預算坦白說我當時我就覺得很奇怪為什麼是由法務部去編列這筆預算如果說職前訓練律師職前訓練是由法務部主辦的話他的委辦他不見得要委託給權律會啊他也可以委託給大專院校也可以委託給法官學院司法官訓練所為什麼一定要委託給權律會"},{"start":1088.908,"end":1114.77,"text":"原來你們現在到目前為止一直都還在幫他們付這筆錢這個當時在109人立法的時候他就是這個立法目的就是這樣子定這一條對 立法目的不就是要全立法會自己辦理嗎然後自己負責經費嘛 對不對只是說你們現在讓他六年都沒有正式的啟用這個條文所以在六年期間的所有經費都還是法務部要編列公務預算來支應"},{"start":1116.873,"end":1140.191,"text":"這個是法條的設計另外他律師他本身其實有公益涉財在野法朝的地位法務部是律師的主管機關從一個主管機關的角度去看這個當時立法有意這麼定那我們就尊重立法者的決定是非常謝謝今天次長告訴我這些我終於知道為什麼這麼多的律師是這麼支持民進黨政府這麼支持"},{"start":1142.461,"end":1146.602,"text":"賴清德都是賴清德後援會的成員也難怪人家說律師的這個綠應該改成綠色的綠以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1101,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時11分）主席好。有請次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：也請周署長、法制司洪司長和法律事務司劉司長。"],["主席：麻煩洪司長和劉司長。"],["翁委員曉玲：次長好，還有司長、署長們好。首先本席想要請教各位，大家知道陸委會最近下令要求所有公教人員，簽名具結有沒有大陸的身分證和居住證。請問次長，您簽了嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我簽了。"],["翁委員曉玲：您簽了？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。署長呢？署長有沒有簽名具結？有沒有簽那個具結書？看起來署長可能還沒有簽。司長？"],["劉司長英秀：簽了。"],["洪司長家原：簽了。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，兩個司長都簽了。本席想請問一下，如果不簽會被處罰嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有。並沒有因為不簽會被處罰。"],["翁委員曉玲：是不是可以請次長再重複一次，大聲的告訴我們，如果不簽的話會被處罰嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：陸委會當然是希望我們簽，但沒有說不簽會被處罰，因為處罰必須要有法源依據，法律要有規範。"],["翁委員曉玲：很好，處罰要有法源依據。因為剛才次長有特別說到法律保留原則，可以向民眾和大家解釋一下什麼叫法律保留原則嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：法律保留就是涉及到人民權益的部分，透過國家立法機關的立法進行保留，法律保留分為絕對保留和相對保留，如果是絕對保留，因為涉及人身自由的部分，一定要有立法院授權的法律才能規範。相對的，法律保留就是不涉及人身自由，但是有可能會涉及人民的權益，基本上、原則上需要有一個法律，或者法律授權的命令來做相關規範，這叫做法律保留原則。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，非常謝謝次長的說明。簡單來說，如果今天行政機關要處罰人民的話，是不是應該要在法律當中明確規定？就是構成要件要清楚，違反構成要件才可以處罰嘛！行政罰法有這樣的規定，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對，行政罰法針對這個部分有特別規範。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。現在在兩岸人民關係條例第九條之一，只有禁止臺灣地區人民不可以在大陸地區設戶籍以及領有護照，所以今天陸委會如果因為某個臺灣人民在大陸地區有居住證就予以處罰，這樣合理嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：這涉及到兩岸關係條例，它並不是本部主管的法規，所以我們這邊……"],["翁委員曉玲：因為這關係到法律解釋，本席剛剛就和你說過，法律的規定必須明確化嘛！對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對，行政罰法的確規範，如果要處罰必須要法律明定。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。"],["黃次長謀信：至於兩岸關係條例的特別規範，我們必須尊重主管機關，因為法務部畢竟不是主管機關，我們沒有辦法代他們回答。"],["翁委員曉玲：次長，您客氣了啦！就法律解釋的部分，本席相信您絕對會解釋的比陸委會好，會更專業、更權威。本席現在要談的，就是在這裡清楚的告訴軍公教人員，還有現在也被要求具結的財團法人等相關職員工，不簽陸委會所要求的，是否具有大陸身分證、居住證等表單，其實是不違法的，而且也不能被處罰，因為於法無據。更何況，陸委會是搞不清楚嗎？教師是公務員嗎？請問次長，教師是不是公務員？"],["黃次長謀信：公務員有廣義和狹義的定義，我不曉得他的主管機……"],["翁委員曉玲：但是他們不屬於公務人員法所說的公務員。我們現在很清楚，兼任行政主管的教授才可以被視為公務員，基本上一般教師不是公務員。本席認為下次可能要考慮是否刪陸委會法規單位的預算，因為不專業，而且還要求人事總處、教育部發這種違法濫權的文件，要求人民自行表態對國家效忠，簽署這樣的具結單，本席認為真的荒謬至極。"],["黃次長謀信：這一條的規範主體是什麼？可不可以裁罰？怎麼裁罰？可不可以簽？委員可能要問陸委會，畢竟他們才是主管機關，我們可能沒辦法回答。"],["翁委員曉玲：可能要請法務部提出專案報告，陸委會有沒有這個權力處罰？如果處罰的話，有沒有違反行政罰法？這應該也是法務部可以提供的意見，這個問題本席就先問到這邊。","接下來本席想要請教次長，關於法務部今年的預算，其實剛才傅總召已經問過，今年預算是有增加的。增加多少億元？"],["黃次長謀信：以刪減後比較，大概是多了12億元。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以還是有多12億元嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：但是這12億元基本上都是用在人事費用啦！因為我們今年增加一百五、六十位員額，基本上就是用在人事費用，還有既有員額薪資的調整，增加的都是人事費。"],["翁委員曉玲：公務機關本來就要撙節經費，要在合理的範圍好好執行業務。其實就這次的總預算來看，每一個部會機關幾乎都有增加，而且增加的幅度還挺高的，就這個部分來說，如果未來真的有窒礙難行的地方，需要追加預算或是要提早解凍，法務部可以再向司法委員會報告。"],["黃次長謀信：好，非常謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來本席想請教次長，我們看一下這個照片，從這張照片，你看到了什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：委員是指哪方面？"],["翁委員曉玲：您看到什麼嘛？有幾位名人、政治人物在裡面。"],["黃次長謀信：委員是要說保外就醫的問題嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：還有呢？"],["黃次長謀信：還是他的戒護……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我們現在來看一下。作為法律人，我們看到這張照片的第一個直覺，就是看到犯罪嫌疑人柯文哲，另外就是保外就醫的貪污犯陳水扁。請問這次矯正署派了多少警力戒護？"],["周署長輝煌：柯P的戒護奔喪嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：對，戒護奔喪。"],["周署長輝煌：北監有8名警力，還有政風人員。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以總共多少位？"],["周署長輝煌：總共10位。"],["翁委員曉玲：總共10位戒護柯文哲，怕他在喪禮當中跑掉。"],["周署長輝煌：8位是戒護，2位是事先到告別式會場了解相關流程，這是為了慎重起見，總共10位。"],["翁委員曉玲：這是為了慎重起見。請問陳水扁到現在還是保外就醫，你們都不擔心他跑掉嗎？他這次參加柯文哲父親的告別式有事先提出申請嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：他有事先向中監報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：每一次都只是報告？來，我們看一下法條怎麼規定。"],["周署長輝煌：因為中監……"],["翁委員曉玲：要監獄核准，對不對？"],["周署長輝煌：是。中監也有表示是不是可以請阿扁提早去捻香致意。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們對陳水扁非常禮遇、客氣，還要去詢問他你可不可以提前告訴我們要參加什麼活動。請問您知道他有去參加賀瓏夜夜秀嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：應該是賀瓏去找他。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以矯正署同意了？臺中監獄也同意了？事後同意還是事前同意？"],["周署長輝煌：賀瓏是到他家拜訪。"],["翁委員曉玲：到他家拜訪，還順便錄了這個節目，所以沒有關係？本席想請問的是，陳水扁參加告別式有助於他的醫療嗎？是他日常生活所需嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：原則上我們都是尊重醫囑啦！他也有向中監報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：署長，這個問題已經問了很多次，本席告訴你，只要本席擔任立法委員一天，看到陳水扁出現在公開媒體，本席一定會問這個問題。請問，如果醫囑造假，醫生會有什麼樣的刑事責任？"],["周署長輝煌：如果造假，應該是偽造文書之類的，但我們尊重醫師的專業判斷啦！"],["翁委員曉玲：你們有沒有去查核過他的醫囑？您認為所有的醫生都不可能造假，是嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：我們尊重醫師的判斷。"],["翁委員曉玲：有沒有可能臺中監獄也在包庇他？如果今天典獄長包庇，或是署長包庇，可能會觸犯什麼樣的刑責？"],["周署長輝煌：我想我們心中都有一把尺，不會去做這些事情。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。但本席要告訴您，相關刑法的法律追溯時效是很長的，除非你們有信心民進黨政府會一直執政，時間會超過20年，到時你們就不會有責任，否則你們現在的所作所為，大家都在記錄。"],["周署長輝煌：臺中監獄一定是依據保外醫治的審核基準，按照規定辦理。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來本席要再說另外一個議題。有關偵查期間的羈押時間是否過長的問題，不僅學界在討論，其實實務界也在討論這個議題。當然，這次柯文哲的事件又讓大家重新檢視，現在就刑事訴訟法的規定，偵查當中的羈押期間，簡單來說就是司法檢察有權力提出的，最長4個月的羈押期是否過長？請問法務部曾經做過相關檢討嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：歷次有關羈押的修法，羈押期間一定會做相關法制上的研究，這是絕對會有的。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們看看韓國、日本的羈押時間，初次大概就是10天，必要時得延長10天，最長就是25天。韓國也是，初次是10天，延長的話不可以超過10天。相較起來，臺灣偵查期間羈押犯罪嫌疑人的時間非常長，這已經侵害犯罪嫌疑人的人權，如果從人權保障角度來說的話，其實臺灣在這方面是落伍的。","本席相信大家應該都很清楚，其實羈押制度常常會成為偵查機關取得自白而惡用的手段，理論上在案件未確定之前應該要做無罪推定，而且要更重視犯罪嫌疑人的人身自由保障。本席希望法務部好好檢討，現在偵查當中的相關羈押規定是不是合理，和世界潮流及其他國家相比較，我們是不是規範過度，違背比例原則。"],["黃次長謀信：羈押期間的長短涉及不同的偵查制度，不可一概而論。事實上我們相關的羈押規定，歷次很多大法官釋字都有做出一些解釋，羈押時間的長短是一個原因，另外就是應該著重羈押要件的嚴格審查，還有進行羈押審核時，要給予閱卷等相關程序上的保障，事實上後來司法院大法官解釋之後，我們相關的修法也都朝這個方向保障，檢討申請羈押的一些流程。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，這個部分要一併檢討。最後，本席很快說一下有關律師職前訓練的事情。本席要談的是，有關律師職前訓練，到底誰才是主要負責者？依照現行的律師法規定，律師職前訓練是由全國律師聯合會辦理。2019年修法的時候，理由寫的非常清楚，為了落實律師的自律、自治精神，明定律師職前訓練是由全國律師聯合會自行辦理。什麼叫自行辦理？錢該由誰出？由法務部出嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：這一條是109年修法的時候修正，因為律師法做了非常大幅度的變動，當時這一條在律師法裡面有特別規範，施行日期另外由行政院定之，所以這一條到目前為止，要由行政院訂定時間才會生效。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們到目前為止都沒有定施行期間？"],["黃次長謀信：我們已經報行政院，請行政院核定它的施行日期。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們什麼時候報的？這是109年修正的，到現在為止這個條文還沒有正式施行。"],["黃次長謀信：這一條是指要由全聯會辦理這件事情，立法當時就有意的，交由行政院另行公告施行期間，因為……"],["翁委員曉玲：請問次長，是因為行政院還沒有公告嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我們已經報行政院，希望行政院能夠趕快公告。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以從109年到現在，你們都沒有提請行政院儘速公告？"],["黃次長謀信：109年律師法做了非常大幅度的修正，我們必須要給律師界……"],["翁委員曉玲：本席現在只說這一條。所以當時法務部……"],["黃次長謀信：對，沒有錯。我們當時是要讓律師界有一些時間去適應新法的適用，因為整個變革太大了，所以當時是有意的把施行時間往後延。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以6年了，全律會還沒有辦法自行辦理。現在律師職前訓練這筆費用一直都還是由法務部支出，由全民的納稅錢支付，是嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：在公告之前是的。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以每年三百多萬元，6年總共支出一千八百多萬元，我們一直在幫全律會支付，難怪全律會那些理事長、理監事這麼支持民進黨，都是賴清德後援會的律師成員。本席認為這真的是非常、非常不負責任的做法，謝謝今天次長告訴本席，原來這個條文到現在還沒有正式施行。","這次審查預算時，坦白說當時本席就覺得很奇怪，為什麼是由法務部編列這筆預算。如果律師職前訓練是由法務部主辦的話，不見得要委託全律會辦理，可以委託大專院校，也可以委託法官學院、司法官訓練所，為什麼一定要委託全律會？原來你們到目前為止一直還在幫他們付這筆錢。"],["黃次長謀信：109年立法的時候，這一條的立法目的就是這樣定的，因為……"],["翁委員曉玲：立法目的不就是要全律會自己辦理嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：對，我是說施行日期。"],["翁委員曉玲：要自己負責經費嘛！對不對？只是這6年都沒有正式啟用這個條文，這6年期間所有的經費都是法務部編列公務預算支應。"],["黃次長謀信：這個是法條的設計。另外律師本身其實也有公益色彩、在野法曹的地位，法務部是律師的主管機關，從一個主管機關的角度去看，當時立法有意這麼定，我們就尊重立法者的決定。"],["翁委員曉玲：非常謝謝今天次長告訴我這些，本席終於知道為什麼那麼多律師這麼支持民進黨政府，這麼支持賴清德，都是賴清德後援會的成員，也難怪人家說律師的「律」應該改成綠色的「綠」，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。不好意思，因為我們剛剛有宣告，翁委員質詢結束之後休息5分鐘。謝謝，休息5分鐘。","休息（11時30分）","繼續開會（11時35分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","柯建銘","王義川","吳思瑤","黃國昌","王鴻薇","沈發惠","傅崐萁","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00011"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}