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委員會率所屬相關單位列席就．強制執行保單解約長．在未符比例原則分針平傳亂象如何解．進行專題報告．並備質詢。．"},{"start":2094.634,"end":2109.079,"text":"決定報告及詢答完畢第三案至第七案司法院含為113年度莊政府總預算決議檢送稅出第四款第一項決議三、四、六、七十八及七十九預算凍結書面報告請查抄案等五案"},{"start":2109.859,"end":2132.458,"text":"決定第三案至第七案均令定期繼續處理討論事項第一案至第三案司法院含有113年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第四款第一項決議一、二及五預算凍結書面報告請查詔案等三案本次會有委員沈發慧等13人提出質詢委員黃珊珊等3人提出書面質詢決議一報告及詢答完畢二、第一案令定期繼續處理"},{"start":2134.019,"end":2157.174,"text":"3.第二案及第三案均准於動之提報院會4.委員質詢時要求提供相關資料會議書面答覆者請相關機關請訴送交個別委員及本會通過臨時提案一項宣讀完畢好謝謝那請問在場各位對上次議會的議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏好沒有的話那議事錄確定"},{"start":2159.07,"end":2186.281,"text":"好,那我們現在介紹在場的委員在場委員有黃國昌委員、翁曉寧委員那接著我們介紹在場的列席官員司法院秘書長、吳秘書長法務部常次、黃常次因為今天蔡英陽部長在花蓮另外有公務,所以"},{"start":2187.652,"end":2213.904,"text":"蔡部長請假主席不好意思會議詢問好請說請問一下主席什麼時候接到部長今天請假的通知我得到訊息是在晚上9點多吧對我得到9點多10點那邊我也忘了"},{"start":2215.41,"end":2224.364,"text":"我必須要跟主席反映一下作為司法法制委員會的委員我個人對這整件事情的看法"},{"start":2225.882,"end":2249.33,"text":"我們在準備今天法務部所提出來的專題報告總統行使特赦後未沒收的不法所得及停審未定讞案件的處理這件事情顯然在我們目前的赦免法下面法務部是主管機關這麼重要的一個專題報告"},{"start":2251.288,"end":2252.049,"text":"那這個部分是不是由黃次長回答?"},{"start":2285.77,"end":2306.572,"text":"跟委員報告那部長是告訴我說他今天到花蓮地檢署因為在這個慰勞我們這個震災的相關的檢檢調同仁的第一件事情第二件事情在花蓮有一個耕寶的團體他長期對我們法部他有非常多的這個支持所以部長今天也要到花蓮的集會也要到這個耕寶的團體去做訪視跟慰勞"},{"start":2310.185,"end":2339.331,"text":"您覺得剛剛講的那兩件事包括慰勞的部分包括感謝的部分跟今天的專題報告比起來比較重要嗎?請不要誤會我的意思喔去花蓮慰勞辛苦的檢警去感謝跟聖人保護人協會這本來都是法務部該做的事但問題是現在整個法務部是只剩下部長一個人嗎?"},{"start":2340.76,"end":2364.937,"text":"其他的市長不能夠去慰問不能去感謝嗎為什麼這麼重要的報告部長選擇刻意的不出席這我沒有辦法理解啦今天在國會裡面請法務部進行這樣的專題報告跟到花蓮去慰問去感謝放在天平上孰輕孰重"},{"start":2367.042,"end":2386.507,"text":"我相信社會大眾很清楚我相信法務部也很清楚為什麼為什麼這樣子就輕率的請假為什麼這樣就輕率的請假是因為明天就要總辭了今天能混就混嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":2392.788,"end":2421.232,"text":"跟我們報告部長這個行程他其實是既定行程他昨天就已經到屏東然後今天到花蓮他是一個連續性的行程對不起喔我請教一下請教一下召委我們排這個專案報告的議程是什麼時候出來的應該蠻早就出來啦上個禮拜就出來上禮拜部長就知道排了這個議程然後依然執意排要去屏東排要去花蓮現在是在做畢業旅行嗎"},{"start":2423.518,"end":2448.435,"text":"因為我昨天知道訊息的時候蔡部長人已經在花臉了所以我昨天聽到的是跟我講說他人都已經在花臉所以嘛對於法務部部長來講沒有把召委所排定的議程當一回事嘛如果召委是上禮拜議程就排出來了身為法務部部長在上禮拜看到立法院的議程"},{"start":2450.131,"end":2472.004,"text":"依然沒有先事先請好假就毅然決然的自己跑去南部跑去東部那所以部長踩準的立場是什麼他踩穩的是反正我就是不要來啊我不來就是要請假啊朝委也拿我沒有皮條啊不是這樣嗎如果我有說錯請指正"},{"start":2478.308,"end":2500.439,"text":"但我覺得做一天和尚撞一天鐘他今天還在部長的這個位置來司法法制委員會進行這樣的專題報告在他的心目中結果是這麼不重要的事把立法院司法法制委員會的議程不當成一回事上禮拜就出來了"},{"start":2505.612,"end":2519.399,"text":"但他還是毅然決然的決定要去屏東去花蓮一直到昨天晚上9點多才請好假他就是踩準了嘛踩準了我不來你能夠怎麼樣這樣的表現啊令人失望他的意思是反正我明天就離開了你們也拿我沒有辦法"},{"start":2533.826,"end":2535.651,"text":"當一個法務部部長可以這樣嗎這是全國檢調的表率嗎"},{"start":2551.628,"end":2577.064,"text":"市長我知道不關你的事啦您站在上面也很無奈但我覺得司法法制委員會該有的立場要有要不然立法院司法法制委員會根本不被法務部部長看在眼裡完全沒有把他當一回事完全沒有把他當一回事才會出現今天這樣荒謬的狀況我知道昭偉、鍾憲雄"},{"start":2591.494,"end":2606.497,"text":"我這邊跟委員報告事實上部長他也是尊重我們司法法制委員會所以在沒有獲得司法法制委員會的准許准假之前他事實上是準備要來的是一直到昨天晚上准假之後他才決定由我來代理出席以上補充"},{"start":2608.597,"end":2629.363,"text":"我非常同意剛剛黃委員所提的那剛剛又聽到次長您的回應真的讓我感受到"},{"start":2630.882,"end":2633.125,"text":"做一天和尚敲一天鐘"},{"start":2644.881,"end":2670.224,"text":"今天這個委員會其實早就在上禮拜議程都公布了他應該很清楚知道今天這個議題的重要性那麼再怎麼說他也應該要在他卸任的最後一次的委員會到立法院裡面來做專案報告然後跟我們這些委員們也許我們還要再感謝他這些年來在"},{"start":2671.945,"end":2697.974,"text":"這個立院這個的復復出可是看起來部長今天什麼都沒說然後就是這樣子我們召委夠寬容那夠包容他的臨時晚上9點多鐘還可以提出請假的事情如果我是召委我是不會同意的我真的很感慨這個部長"},{"start":2700.427,"end":2725.258,"text":"看起來他應該在一些事情上面他是知道分寸的知道要怎麼樣去拿捏可是沒想到在今天這麼重要的議題上面他卻缺席由次長來代為做專題報告那麼我希望次長回去能夠轉告部長他今天他這樣子的一個作為我們會留下記錄那麼在這邊也這個要請這個召委"},{"start":2730.421,"end":2733.247,"text":"這個之後我們可能看是做個附帶決議要譴責這個部長的這樣一個不尊重司法法制委員會的行為"},{"start":2742.02,"end":2766.128,"text":"主席我是不是補充一下事實上蔡部長據我所知她請假不是昨天晚上9點才臨時請假她事實上這個禮拜陸陸續續都有在進行請假的程序只是請假一直沒有獲得這個召委的准許是一直到昨天晚上才獲得的准許不是說昨天晚上臨時才決定不好意思我先停一下她陸陸續續在請假沒有獲得召委的准許那她不就今天應該來嗎"},{"start":2767.168,"end":2769.529,"text":"昨天晚上是仗著什麼?到9點多?如果有心來參加人造花蓮"},{"start":2796.451,"end":2811.637,"text":"我會預期的是他昨天晚上傍晚就搭火車回到台北了不用準備嗎?他昨天晚上到9點多才獲准請假他不就是擺明了沒有要來嗎?您是檢察官啊對於事實的認定我們在適用經驗法則跟論理法則的時候"},{"start":2826.803,"end":2851.261,"text":"我相信我剛剛的分析沒有錯一個有心沒有準價知道應該要來列席的部長昨天晚上不是應該傍晚就要搭火車回來台北了嗎他為什麼有恃無恐的被晚上9點多還在繼續請假就擺明的就沒有要來嘛我有說錯嗎"},{"start":2860.959,"end":2868.12,"text":"那王市長就請回答這部分我就再說明一下其實這幾天當然就是"},{"start":2869.969,"end":2891.651,"text":"蔡部長是有透過一些管道說希望能夠請假那我這邊當然是沒有同意阿因為有幾位委員已經很明確的說明說他們今天想要諮詢蔡部長那到昨天晚上大概9點多的時候因為我都不同意這件事情那到最後9點多的時候我得到最後一次的訊息是"},{"start":2892.659,"end":2916.878,"text":"他人已經在花蓮了就一定不會過來那我們沒辦法讓今天的這場會議不舉行其實我今天也可以做一個方式我就是不甩你然後今天早上開會介紹完畢之後我就直接喊休息等蔡部長來那其實我們今天就這會議就沒了就完蛋了我當然這部分"},{"start":2918.7,"end":2939.134,"text":"我也是覺得希望啦將來的新的內閣我就不要這樣子做啦就是你如果說真的有重要的要務或什麼你不來那我們都能夠體諒那一直到我到昨天晚上9點多我覺得我才知道說你不來然後你人已經在花臉那因為就是我所知道最後的狀況我是如實說明"},{"start":2942.434,"end":2966.064,"text":"這個狀況那剛剛那個次長說的也沒錯其實這幾天部長他確實有說希望請假不來但是我們立場其實很明白就是不可能嘛因為有委員已經說他有事情要請教蔡部長這四個狀況是這樣那中間我剛剛所論述的中間完全沒有任何一點虛假或灌水就剛剛整個論述是這樣從頭到尾發生的狀況是這樣那"},{"start":2970.168,"end":2997.134,"text":"請問一下還有沒有需要程序發言的好沒有齁好那其餘未介紹的列席人員我們都有列入公報的記錄好那本次議程我們邀請司法院秘書長、法務部長跟所率相關單位列席就總統行使特赦權後．該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件的處理進行專案報告．並備質詢"},{"start":3002.132,"end":3020.517,"text":"我主席在這邊先再提醒一件事情其實我一直認為說對於前總統是否進行赦免這是一件非常非常重大的事情對於我們國家的形象對於人民都非常的重要所以今天才會安排這個"},{"start":3022.566,"end":3047.722,"text":"我們希望說今天到場的機關能夠說明清楚然後對人民釋疑對人民釋疑之後總統如果要真的要進行赦免那這樣社會上面反彈聲量才會小因為赦免法案的精神也是要考量到赦免之後對於人民法感情的影響這個在赦免法裡面都有提到好 謝謝那現在進行報告發言時間5分鐘那我們先請司法院吳秘書長報告"},{"start":3062.442,"end":3087.86,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進、各位先生、各位女士本人僅代表司法院就本日專題總統行使特赦後．該案未沒收之不法所得及停審未定讞案件之處理就今日的專題進行報告"},{"start":3091.856,"end":3119.045,"text":"敬請主教分成兩項分成兩項第一項總統行使特赦後該案未沒收之不法所得的處理那麼一現行法沒收是獨立於行法及保安處分以外的法律效果而非使行法"},{"start":3120.373,"end":3147.438,"text":"那是基於下列三點理由第一點是刑法在104年12月30日修正公佈並自105年7月1日施行後莫說是獨立於刑法及保安處分以外的法律效果既有獨立性而非使刑法"},{"start":3149.457,"end":3176.241,"text":"所以將默說徵定為獨立議章在第5章之一以符合規範的意旨那麼該專章中既未規定犯罪過程要件亦無涉及刑法的創設或擴張至無罪行法定原則的適用以及適用行為實法的必要性"},{"start":3177.469,"end":3203.882,"text":"已徹底剝奪犯罪所得那麼第二點現法法庭111年宪判制第18號判決理由內以沒收新制的立法目的是回復合法財產秩序並非剝奪不法行為前犯罪行為人或非善意第三人的固有財產"},{"start":3205.718,"end":3234.429,"text":"從而不計刑法的本質．所以立法者修正沒收規定．並非出於刑法的目的．以刑法是處罰犯罪行為的人．矯正犯罪行為．並遏止再犯的嚴厲處意顯有不同。第三點現法法庭113年憲判制第一號判決理由列以"},{"start":3235.677,"end":3262.076,"text":"犯罪所得之產生．須基於違法行為．然．無論該違法行為是否終止．何時終止．亦不論行為人是否構成犯罪．至不法利得所得產生之時期．不法財產秩序已然形成．且行為人支配該不法利得的狀態．"},{"start":3263.806,"end":3287.98,"text":"仍繼續存在至該犯罪所得被剝奪時為止應該不法財產自棄．依新法施行或仍繼續存在．所以行法第二條第二項規定．屬不真正數集既往的法規範．並未違反法律不數集既往原則"},{"start":3293.004,"end":3318.787,"text":"所以現行法關於沒收的性質就如上所述那麼又依據赦免法第五條之一前段的規定因有罪判決確定所生之既成效果不因特赦而受影響這個也有這方面的規定那麼至於"},{"start":3320.683,"end":3339.858,"text":"總統行使特赦後．該案未沒收之不法所得的處理因為宿舍個案執行檢察官的職權本院一意尊重第二項是總統行使特赦後．停審未定讞案件之處理"},{"start":3342.052,"end":3362.911,"text":"未定讞案件是否停審．是否繼續審判．原則上是屬於審判核心素項．既以審判獨立．由個案成審．法官本已全責判斷以上報告敬請指教謝謝接下來我們請法務部黃次長報告"},{"start":3370.801,"end":3386.464,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生大家好今天封邀代表本部就本證案報告進行報告並備質詢那一項報告進行指教第一有關總統行使特赦的依據總統是依據這個赦免法還有這個憲法的規定行使他的大赦特赦檢刑復寫之權那總統如果予以發動其"},{"start":3398.857,"end":3426.049,"text":"行使特赦權得依赦免法第6條規定發交研議至於是否發交仍取決於總統的裁量有關特赦的程序的部分特赦是由這個總統命令行政院另轉本部為特赦的研議然後本部研議後再舉再列舉相關的意見交由總統那至於總統是否行使特赦權由總統來決定"},{"start":3431.636,"end":3461.022,"text":"我國赦免法有關於這個特赦的對象是以這個依照赦免法第3條的規定受罪行宣告之人經特赦者免除其刑之執行其情節特殊者得以其刑之宣告為無效所以呢按照赦免法的規定受罪行宣告之人經特赦者原則上是要免除刑之執行在情形特殊的時候才可以比照特赦他的罪行會宣告無效"},{"start":3463.7,"end":3490.963,"text":"有關於這個總統行使特赦之後關於犯罪所得的這個處理的部分如同剛剛司法院報告沒收並非是刑罰他不是在特赦的範圍所以呢如果行使特赦之後呢他的效力當然不及於沒收另外有關於報告所提到的這個總統行使特赦之後關於停審案件的處理的部分"},{"start":3492.625,"end":3514.871,"text":"因為停審案件案件尚未判決確定沒有赦免法第三條有關特色的適用因為赦免法特色的規定本不是認為他是以這個受罪行宣告確定判決為前提所以停審的案件並沒有赦免法有關特色的適用的餘地至於停審的案件"},{"start":3516.087,"end":3536.291,"text":"因為是屬於未確定的案件應由審判機關來認定它的原因事實是否消滅然後再依照刑事訴訟規定決定是否繼續審判那至於是否決定繼續審判這是法院的職權本部尊重結語的部分特赦是憲法賦予總統專屬的職權停審中的個案應非行使特赦權所給及的範圍"},{"start":3544.713,"end":3552.166,"text":"具體個案中如果由未沒收的犯罪所得也不會受到特赦的效力所影響以上報告謝謝"},{"start":3557.901,"end":3575.783,"text":"好 謝謝黃次長那現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":3591.352,"end":3595.717,"text":"謝謝主席,是不是麻煩有請司法院秘書長以及法務部常務次長黃次長請秘書長、次長"},{"start":3600.354,"end":3625.117,"text":"委員好秘書長好、次長好首先請教次長我相信法務部對於整個赦免制度在比較法上面有相當程度的了解因為畢竟法務部也派檢察官去國外研究了赦免制度回來洋洋灑灑也寫了一個比較大的報告"},{"start":3626.218,"end":3637.499,"text":"我在社民制度的這件事情上我真的比較關切的是我們的總統依照憲法依照憲法的規定是依法行使大赦特赦的權利"},{"start":3639.431,"end":3667.35,"text":"因此就有關於赦免的制度是有法律保留原則的適用來請教次長我的理解有沒有錯沒有錯是嗎因此呢當我們在看各國赦免制度的時候他們希望這一個制度依法來行使的時候能夠有一個客觀的標準那這個客觀的標準包括了說總統在做這個決定以前針對什麼樣的標準"},{"start":3669.711,"end":3690.106,"text":"什麼樣子的類型能夠有一個具有可問責性跟透明性這個是法務部的檢察官去國外研究回來的研究報告我看了以後非常的佩服我也認同這樣子的制度建議方向但我們現在就具體的問題來講"},{"start":3691.807,"end":3698.434,"text":"法務部針對有關於赦免制度因為目前赦免法第6條的規定是可以交由法務部來研議"},{"start":3703.513,"end":3721.303,"text":"那法務部針對整個赦免制度在什麼情況之下適合來行使這個大赦或特赦參佐你們的檢察官去國外研究回來的制度有沒有建立一些客觀的基準以及程序請教次長"},{"start":3722.553,"end":3723.714,"text":"這些研究有沒有公開?"},{"start":3738.502,"end":3764.933,"text":"好 那個是不是會後請你們把你們參酌各國的立法力所做的研究可以送交司法法制委員會 可以嗎好 沒問題好 第二個問題是說針對在媒體上面傳的會聲會語說蔡英文總統考慮要特赦陳水扁前總統我基本上的立場是對於這一種道派的"},{"start":3766.557,"end":3786.452,"text":"不曉得透過什麼莫名其妙的管道放消息給媒體拔草側風向這種處理方式我是岐岐以為不然這是一個嚴肅的憲政問題這也是一個重要的制度而這個制度的適用我們應該具有一定客觀的基準"},{"start":3787.293,"end":3804.592,"text":"好那但我現在比較具體的問題是說到目前為止法務部有沒有接到任何的指示要針對這件事情依照社民法第6條的規定來進行研議顧問報告因為社民法第6條規定他是總統得名或"},{"start":3804.972,"end":3807.513,"text":"第二部分就有關於今天在司法院的報告提出了有關於刑事訴訟法第294條救審能力的問題"},{"start":3832.898,"end":3850.891,"text":"那依照目前刑事訴訟法294條救審能力的規定請教一下秘書長目前我們在訴訟係數當中的刑事案件因為這樣停職審判的案件有幾件?就是是那個陳前總統的全國只有一件嗎?"},{"start":3851.963,"end":3868.112,"text":"就是陳前總統的對啊 我了解我 我說全國的刑事訴訟是用刑事訴訟法294條的規定停止審判的目前的刑事訴訟 係數當中的刑事訴訟是用這條規定的 有幾件前提被告啦對對對對對"},{"start":3871.12,"end":3892.993,"text":"我們刑事廳目前就這一步沒有同仁沒有關係會後事事拜託秘書長請刑事廳的同仁把我們目前刑事訴訟法294條到底適用的有幾件可以提交給司法法制委員會我們作為接下來制度研議的參考因為我覺得我們在討論制度的時候就要認真的討論清楚"},{"start":3894.554,"end":3919.266,"text":"法律制度我們希望它具有什麼?客觀的普遍適用性可預測性、可問責性、透明性兩位都是法律人我想我講的這些原則兩位應該都贊同吧是好請秘書長先回座那我接下來請教一下次長我看到一個案子我很憤怒我們的前立法院的秘書長貪污了3100萬"},{"start":3923.771,"end":3948.582,"text":"兩個貪污罪被判刑並執行刑13年8個月13年8個月2019年7月19號入監服刑結果在5月14號的時候他已經假釋出獄了判了應定執行刑13年8個月結果我算到他假釋出獄為止實際上只關4年10個月"},{"start":3951.738,"end":3979.605,"text":"法務部你們假釋的權利是怎麼行使的我在2016到2020年我那時候在立法院的時候我就對於黑箱的假釋非常的痛恨經過了檢警的犯罪偵查三期三審判決確定了以後有超過一半以上的刑期要不要執行掌握在法務部的手上"},{"start":3980.609,"end":4006.176,"text":"那個時候針對很多莫名其妙的假釋案件我提出了質詢是不是背後有什麼政治力操作導致了權貴司法的出現結果今天又再看到這樣的案子我今天本來請教蔡京祥部長因為幾年前就是他在備詢台上面跟我承諾"},{"start":4007.426,"end":4030.674,"text":"假釋制度．法務部一定會徹底的改革徹底改革完．出現這樣的結果 次長你滿不滿意共委員報告他假釋他有一定的外部法規規定跟內部的一個流程的程序本部相關的假釋修正這個水利的過程他一定要依法來行政依法來處理至於個案上每個個案我先講"},{"start":4033.14,"end":4056.785,"text":"假釋的權利現在完全掌握在行政部門手上我相信次長很清楚啦包括很多刑法重量級的學者對這個事情都提出批判嘛這麼重要的權利全部交給行政機關他反映出來的是什麼是一個刑事司法的政策我現在就要請教一下法務部"},{"start":4058.069,"end":4074.279,"text":"你們在行使假釋權利的時候你行使司法的政策到底是什麼貪污犯應定執行刑13年8個月你們關了4年10個月就放出來跟大家解釋一下嘛這個權利是怎麼行使的"},{"start":4075.485,"end":4102.122,"text":"各位報告那假釋制度要不要存在這是一個行事政策上有很大問題啦齁那至於說假釋的這個控管那不完全是但形式上在行政機關的決定沒有做但是我們假釋本身他有一個假釋委員會外部委員他來做一個假釋的這個決定倒不是完全法務部他可以去掌握假釋或不假釋不過老實講啦齁你就是說次長你用這種空洞的言語齁可能"},{"start":4104.043,"end":4113.291,"text":"我不要說你要糊弄人啦真的實際上面知道狀況的就是什麼要不要假設這件事情有很大的權力掌握在法務部的手上"},{"start":4114.161,"end":4139.434,"text":"那因為今天您是文官不是政務官你也沒有辦法為政策負責但我只希望利用這次的質詢清楚的表達一個看法貪污犯喔貪污犯貪了3100萬定執行刑13年8個月結果執行完畢以後最後只關4年10個月對於這種制度運作的結果無法接受"},{"start":4140.458,"end":4159.874,"text":"無法接受我相信不是只有我無法接受很多人民看在眼裡也沒有辦法接受我希望法務部針對這件事情不要再忙含下去了不要再忙含下去了痛定思痛要好好的思考怎麼樣避免這種離譜的狀況繼續出現我接下來要請教88調查報告"},{"start":4165.1,"end":4192.971,"text":"我那天跟吳宗憲召委去高檢署我們去考察的時候我終於有機會等到請教高檢署我說高檢署當初所做的行政調查報告內容不實這件事情我問了一年多包括蔡清祥部長在這個備詢台上面公開承諾過公開承諾過高檢署要回應"},{"start":4194.271,"end":4217.732,"text":"結果我到那一天禮拜一去考察以前我沒有等到高檢署的回應我終於有機會去考察的時候請教高檢署的檢察長還有負責處理的主任檢察官我說的沒有錯啊我錯了沒有錯當初高檢署說什麼說他們有徹底查明"},{"start":4219.132,"end":4247.321,"text":"問題是什麼現實上面的狀況現場就有人在招待高檢署當初的調查報告寫的是什麼現場沒有任何人沒有任何人提供服務我那時候看到高檢署這個調查報告我無法相信啊我無法相信檢察官跟高階警官到那個招待所是自己開燈自己開冷氣自己倒水自己服務自己"},{"start":4248.243,"end":4255.494,"text":"我當初開的高檢署的調查報告我覺得就有問題但我需要證據"},{"start":4257.366,"end":4284.533,"text":"我終於找到證據去訪問那個招待所的管家的時候那個管家清楚的講有招待啊我們現場三個人啊在那邊負責服務啊結果高檢署的內容卻不是這樣寫的我等到禮拜一等到禮拜一我去了我去了高檢署結果高檢署說啊當初有很多資訊他們不知道"},{"start":4285.894,"end":4302.089,"text":"接受訪談的檢警也沒有說實話這是哪門子徹底查明啊你們後來去跟警政署調資料 證明我所言不虛我要請教的是 這個是警政署在隱匿還是高檢署在放水"},{"start":4303.105,"end":4329.653,"text":"跟委員報告那事實上當天那個調查報告的檢察長跟主任檢察官也跟委員說明了事實上就這個在場我們業者三人的部分的確當時所掌握的證據沒有掌握到這三人所以調查報告沒有檢查先提一下對齁當時掌握到的證據沒有這三個人但相關的證據在警政署手上對不對是嘛因為這個個案他是不是在警政署你們拜託你們那天就直接回覆我你們後來還發"},{"start":4331.641,"end":4357.712,"text":"新聞稿後來發新聞稿說什麼後來發新聞稿說你們不是去警政署調了那一個簽到簿發現進出的人就有現場的業者我有沒有說錯對後來發新聞稿是這樣但是更為對嘛所以我就在問嘛警政署當初掌握這個資訊你們高檢署發的行政調查報告請次長回去看本署"},{"start":4359.042,"end":4376.514,"text":"高檢署是結合新北地檢署警政署我們聯合進行什麼行政調查行政調查完了以後如何出了這一份徹底查明的報告那事後就不是這樣嘛所以我剛請教你的事情是那當初"},{"start":4377.575,"end":4392.205,"text":"是警政署隱匿還是高檢署放水這就是我的問題對我知道好你們這個補充的行政調查因為我要尊重後面委員的時間你們補充更正的行政調查報告什麼時候會提出來"},{"start":4394.306,"end":4407.866,"text":"呃 各位報告 現在 現在他 上 那天 呃那天他說要簽部長嘛對 他是 他當 自己有權可以 可以發布啦那什麼時候要發布我不能代他回答當天他是有跟 跟委員報告大概多久的時間"},{"start":4409.266,"end":4409.807,"text":"謝謝我們現在請莊惠雄委員發言"},{"start":4440.328,"end":4445.173,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們司法院秘書長、法務部黃某信次長、委員長、還有次長"},{"start":4453.294,"end":4477.977,"text":"最近尤其是我們今天在討論整個特赦案這個總統行使特赦那這個部分我相信大家正反意見都會有但是總統特赦這應該是算總統專屬的特權這個憲法這樣的一個明定那我想中華民國過去一共幾次特赦"},{"start":4482.252,"end":4496.959,"text":"1937年國民政府臨生特赦西安事變的策劃者張學良1961年蔣中正前總統特赦蔡興犯下過失致死但曾從事嫡後工作立下戰功"},{"start":4499.04,"end":4513.89,"text":"1965年蔣中正特赦台大教授彭明敏1990年520前總統李登輝特赦美麗島事件受刑者林鴻軒、呂秀蓮、程菊、姚家文、黃信介、張俊宏、林奕雄、施敏德、許新良等人"},{"start":4527.939,"end":4529.681,"text":"公權公權公權公權公權公權公權公權公權公權公權公權公權"},{"start":4550.027,"end":4561.274,"text":"7.2021年5.20特赦獵捕野生動物觸法的布農族原住民獵人王光祿8.2022年4月22日特赦國軍前少將參謀長韓玉平與他的侍從士張玉生兩人因漢光演習加菜金核銷餐費2880元被依《貪污治罪條例》分別判處4年6個月和1年的徒刑"},{"start":4576.303,"end":4595.996,"text":"我提這八個案例就是在講說從過去台灣特赦的歷史來看今天假如要特赦前總統那當然沒有問題總統的特權所以針對特赦的對象會發生疑慮那在本席看來就不是法律問題了"},{"start":4597.597,"end":4607.676,"text":"所有的會去執行的人、判刑有罪的人尤其是判刑確定的人才有這個特赦的問題嘛那都是一審、二審甚至於有的還有三審"},{"start":4609.025,"end":4631.151,"text":"那法律途徑已經窮盡了以後一二三審、審計制度設計完以後有再審的去再審有非常上訴的去非常上訴全部都走完了法律程序其實就已經結束了嘛那就是這個時候為什麼給總統這樣的一個特色的一個權利啊就是讓他去考量站在總統的高度"},{"start":4631.718,"end":4648.911,"text":"他如何去看待如何來彌平整個社會這樣的一個爭議所以啊幾乎都是政治判斷我在從第8屆第9屆第10屆進入到現在第10屆阿扁這個議題啊我從來都不避諱啊我就是停扁我都認為要特赦"},{"start":4654.707,"end":4673.253,"text":"正反意見誰不知道會有誰不知道社會上都有壓力跟衝擊大家都知道但就像我們阿扁講的政治案件就是政治解決政治案件確定了以後你如何去透過法律來討回公道所以我還是大方的承認我就是支持這個特赦從以現在來看的話"},{"start":4677.492,"end":4699.64,"text":"法律你確定的案件就已經結束我就會去尊重總統的一個他自己的一個判斷從過去我舉的例子來看那從來都不是法律問題那都是完全是政治的一個判斷以上那另外我要來就教我們這個可能就跟秘書長我給你回應一下我這樣說不知道對不對這個"},{"start":4706.779,"end":4734.685,"text":"我尊重委員的說法我講得不對,我的人是這樣嗎?我不對,你也要吐槽,沒插到啊法律見解本來就有人會不一樣啊這個地方就是論理嘛,你有你的理,那就社會公平嘛我總不會胡說八道說這個法律我故意去扭曲做解釋,這就不對了嘛我舉這個八個案例來跟你講就是所有的東西都是窮盡一切司法的一個途徑,到最後用政治去做判斷嘛"},{"start":4735.865,"end":4755.092,"text":"這個就叫做特赦啦!這個就叫做特赦啦!不然沒有說 吼!法律都規定那個地方 規定在那個地方啊 總統特別大這個是憲法規定的 給他這個總統專屬的特權只是說 社會上要如何去非難去做一個評價 那是另外一件事"},{"start":4756.243,"end":4783.034,"text":"秘書長請回我要請教次長的就是說次長我要請教你就是說這樣講起來就沉重了這位期裡面可能就是最後一次的一個質詢那我要在這個地方做一個提醒就是說三年前發生的那個太魯閣出軌的一個事件那上個禮拜母親節的前夕在隧道裡面又發現了遺害那三年前的事故在305還在事故的地點發現遺害這個民眾"},{"start":4786.363,"end":4808.798,"text":"這我們從媒體上在看到我們也都會覺得說現場在採證的時候那當然一定是不夠仔細民眾第一個想法一定是如此我相信法務部你也不好意思去做任何的一個辯解因為就在更久之前你看那個2018所發生的普悠瑪事件的車廂竟然在5年後就是去年的9月也去發現了遺害跟遺留物"},{"start":4811.459,"end":4834.115,"text":"這個我們可以理解整個搜救的一個現場裡面難度是很高誰也不願意發生這種事我相信我們檢警人員他們也不管從檢察官或者辨識人員甚至搜救小組每一個人到了現場都是努力再去協助現場的一個清理可是市長我要講的就是可是畢竟受害者的家屬我們如果站在他們的角度去看的話"},{"start":4838.794,"end":4843.739,"text":"這個他們會想說我已經過了這麼多年人也都圓滿、錄斂、安葬就算DNA比對找到遺害現在怎麼處理都不對啊那還要家屬拿著放到"},{"start":4857.695,"end":4886.142,"text":"納古塔這個事實不僅僅是一種忌諱對這種往生者跟家屬的一個不尊重尤其是讓他們再去想起這種傷心的一個往事所以我要請教次長就是說有沒有針對類似的事情這種事情我們去做內部的一個檢討比如說如何再加速恢復現場跟整個完整的一個搜救的一個清理取得一個比較好的平衡我們就不希望這種事情"},{"start":4887.022,"end":4887.982,"text":"發生這種事對家屬也好對我們國家也好當然是一個不好的事情"},{"start":4904.208,"end":4923.94,"text":"我們本部也自認為該檢討就是應該要檢討這涉及到相驗發生的時候檢察官的相驗工作跟相關的目的主管機關行政機關的行政分工的問題事後這個案子發生之後我們的確在個案上我們也做檢討通案上我們也修正了我們一個重大相驗案件的一個內部的一個要點"},{"start":4924.6,"end":4951.333,"text":"我們把要點做修正之後我們訂了一定的SOB流程要求我們檢察官如何的在重大案件發生之後相關案件發生之後如何跟行政機關如何對接如何的協調事後如何的交接交接這相關的章政務處理完善之後才可以結束這個個案這要點我們在去年就修了做一個特定的修了社長這不要開玩笑了因為病人現在醫院很怕出錯"},{"start":4952.569,"end":4975.641,"text":"現在現在我們譬如開始一直搞喔,哪一個流程?黃謀信,好來,不然也簡單要問一下,生日幾號?生日當時?搞一下。譬如說檢察官也是一樣,監事人員也是一樣啊,你們把它定下來以後,憑經驗是好事啦,但有時候現場凌亂,甚至於在緊急狀況的時候,每一個人所謂的重不重要判斷會不一樣啊。"},{"start":4977.315,"end":4987.493,"text":"你都覺得SOP起來,就等於用高的一樣,好來,第一人,法務部你們早期開會過了,應該做什麼?高起來。第二行,我們今天被欠什麼?高起來。"},{"start":4988.362,"end":5001.492,"text":"慢慢再去滾動次做檢討也許你們在亂的時候會發現說哪一個環節我們必須要去注意或者在討論的時候應該如何再去做精進我都不希望像這種事情你也不知道要怎麼處理你現在弄一個手指的骨頭你說我發還給家屬當然要還給家屬他怎麼辦"},{"start":5011.189,"end":5017.352,"text":"要站在樓上?站在樓上?不然就開始再響響響響響那不是要在鈴鼓塔都要放進去嗎?在鈴鼓塔呢?處長那樣要開錢是不是?一般民眾你說叫他去就我骨頭紅的香氣都要放進去不可能嘛不然你也要叫一個法師來傳一個聖禮當然那更怪自己的親人那個不是什麼壞事只是也沒有必要在多年後增加這樣的一個困擾嘛"},{"start":5038.32,"end":5066.629,"text":"花錢又困擾最主要是民眾也傷心那我們在行政部門的部分我們這種事情沒有辦法完全預測以不會發生嘛什麼事要發生不知道嘛那總是整個流程把它確定下來這個讓民眾會覺得說政府對我來講的話比較溫暖政府對我來講的話他的行政部門在工作是很細緻的啦這個我要求改進好不好我們再去精進啦"},{"start":5067.429,"end":5067.549,"text":"羅志強委員發言"},{"start":5099.349,"end":5123.785,"text":"有請秘書長和次長請秘書長、次長委員好關於特赦沉水扁我有幾個問題想要請教一下因為民進黨一直強調政治案件政治解決所以我想請問我們的次長你覺得沉水扁案是政治案件還是司法案件"},{"start":5124.884,"end":5150.618,"text":"報告委員特赦的權利憲法規定是專屬於總統那我們對這個總統的職權我們沒有辦法做過多的評論秘書長覺得呢也是尊重總統的職權那我好奇一件事情如果照民進黨的邏輯是政治案件的話我想請教一下目前陳水扁總統被判決定驗的案件有幾件"},{"start":5152.45,"end":5163.804,"text":"公園報告目前定讞的部分是事件事件嘛裡面先聯到的一些其他的一些這個被判決確定的有哪些人除了陳隨便以外"},{"start":5165.782,"end":5168.324,"text":"請問那些確定的是不是既然是政治案件是不是一併特赦"},{"start":5189.94,"end":5190.501,"text":"所以今天我要講的第一件事情"},{"start":5213.137,"end":5239.323,"text":"全國民眾在關注的是你的特色範圍到底是陳水扁一個人還是陳水扁這個貪污的集團這個我覺得今天我們的當然蔡部長今天沒來我覺得今天民進黨也好我覺得蔡英文總統也好要交代清楚第二個民眾關心的問題我想請教一下犯罪所得怎麼處理"},{"start":5241.633,"end":5267.06,"text":"如果是特赦陳水扁的話各位報告那剛剛司法院跟本部的報告都有說到特赦的部分他是免除他的刑的執行或者是罪行先告無效前提都是刑但犯罪所得的部分按照我們修法之後他並不是組刑也不是重刑他是一個特殊的一個處分我直接問具體的不會被這個特赦的效力所及我直接問具體的啦"},{"start":5267.952,"end":5293.884,"text":"目前針對二次經改元大病復華案陳水扁未繳個人罰金多少錢?呃 各位報告陳千東董行的部分確定的部分都執行完畢我講的是未繳罰金罰金的部分也執行完畢了他總共這四個案子的罰金行的部分是2.5億都執行完畢了執行完畢啊對那海外有多少的那個錢被凍結?"},{"start":5296.281,"end":5316.652,"text":"現在國內外的這個凍結的資產大概他有一些是不凍產他要沒有辦法大概多少嗎我連這都沒掌握吧大概7億元左右7億元左右那這7億元歸屬誰因為確定部分已經執行完畢了但他有一部分還是在審理當中對所以要等判決的結果"},{"start":5319.149,"end":5323.591,"text":"一個是罰金 一個是不罰所得 不罰所得怎麼處理四個判決確定的不罰所得怎麼處理"},{"start":5329.229,"end":5330.049,"text":"目前海外凍結的這些財產跟罰金"},{"start":5351.138,"end":5353.141,"text":"以目前來說的話就是我們未判決定業有哪些案件"},{"start":5368.746,"end":5387.789,"text":"他未判決定讞的部分還有也是4個案子事件嘛對一個是卸任總統侵占公文書案嘛對不對對停審的時間是什麼時候什麼時候開始停審102年的12月20號停審的102年就102年12月停審嘛對不對到現在幾年了13年了嘛11年了11年11年對不對我想請問當時停審原因是什麼"},{"start":5398.277,"end":5399.198,"text":"那我想請教我們的兩位"},{"start":5424.315,"end":5449.329,"text":"你知道陳水扁最近做了一件大家覺得非常為他開心的事是什麼事你知道嗎因為陳水扁還可以擔任陳信宇的訴訟代理人然後替他牙醫診所醫療糾紛辯護還能夠自己沒有辦法出庭自己的官司身體不好倒是女兒的官司她身體很好訴訟代理人又可以出庭"},{"start":5451.243,"end":5475.238,"text":"我現在問的是今天請問我剛剛講不只是我們剛剛講的這個還有什麼這個我們講青藏公文書的已經停審了11年都以身體健康因素來停審還有包括陳敏勳買官延伸的洗錢案請問是什麼時候停審的?104年5月13號對啊然後國務紀要費教授委政案什麼時候停審的?103年1月28號"},{"start":5478.991,"end":5496.064,"text":"然後二次經改國泰經病釋華銀案又是什麼時候停審的?104年8月31號那我想請教一下陳水扁都被特赦了那這些案子什麼時候審啊?他身體健康的狀況有到連出庭都不行嗎?出庭都不行嗎?請問那個停審到底是的標準是怎麼認定?誰來判斷?秘書長"},{"start":5510.203,"end":5536.642,"text":"這個齁是原則上齁這個是屬於這個審判核心事項啦齁那基於審判獨立齁是由這個個案成審法官本於前者來判斷的都很一致阿全部都停審阿這四個案子法官都一樣嗎都一樣嗎這個齁那應該這個有的在高院有的在低院阿我要講一件事阿"},{"start":5538.154,"end":5564.163,"text":"今天民眾說真的對於陳水扁要不要特赦你剛剛講總統職權已經特赦完的東西如果陳水扁真的要特赦沒關係民進黨有一個特赦貪污總統的歷史紀錄像剛剛莊育雄委員講八項紀錄前面絕大多數不是良心犯就是政治犯如果民進黨要創一個特赦貪污總統的紀錄那也由得民進黨"},{"start":5565.39,"end":5593.103,"text":"可是我就要問那請問後面的官司還要不要判啊?後面的官司蔡英文可以特赦嗎?可以嗎?市長本部報告也寫得很清楚特赦現已判決確定當然啦他沒辦法特赦啊對等到判決確定也輪不到他特赦啊那我想問是什麼分期付款嗎?蔡英文特赦完之後剩下沒被判的案件等到愛情人上任以後又被判罪了還是不是要再特赦一次?"},{"start":5594.178,"end":5621.448,"text":"要特赦一次嗎?四個案子,四次分別判,就特赦四次的意思,是這個概念嗎?所以回頭我就要說,還有一件事我想請教兩位你知道高雄曾經發生監獄暴動嗎?挾持典獄長的事情,記不記得?記得嘛,大寮嘛,對不對?他們訴求,有一個訴求你不會忘記吧,跟陳水扁有關六項訴求,有一個訴求跟陳水扁有關,哪一項訴求?"},{"start":5624.229,"end":5650.683,"text":"哪一項訴求?我告訴你這個市長要掌握清楚一點因為你今天來做專案報告跟陳水扁有關的不只是審判案件啦還有包括保外就醫啦當時那些六個我們的那個受刑人啊他們說他們要暴動的原因之一就是無法忍受陳水扁怎麼樣為什麼陳水扁可以保外就醫"},{"start":5652.799,"end":5680.811,"text":"請問監所有沒有比陳水扁健康更嚴重的有沒有存在有沒有有沒有有沒有保外就醫我們現在每年就將近有三四百個保外就醫的保外就醫是什麼樣的狀況當時啦我知道你們後面改了一堆規定啦當時在保外就醫是指在監所病重到不能再監所治療啦對他是不能醫治或無法醫治對啊不能醫治或無法醫治啊"},{"start":5681.991,"end":5702.472,"text":"阿如果感冒發燒可不可以保外就醫可不可以他具體的是不是用保外醫治的規定那當然他當然不可以連這個你都答不出來我還沒講完他有一定的程序要去審可不可以嘛委員你是講感冒嗎感冒發燒可以嗎通常合理第三人來看這個當然是專委不行阿對啊"},{"start":5704.329,"end":5712.395,"text":"那今天都已經到可以到訴訟代理人可以上直播可以趴趴走你覺得還有病重到不能夠在監所內為醫治之行為嗎?有嗎?從正常客觀第三人來看你剛剛講的 有嗎?沒有啦 我幫你回答 我知道你不方便啦"},{"start":5722.677,"end":5747.987,"text":"今天在陳水扁身上其實說真的大家對特赦的問題談論的還不只是總統職權的特赦總統還有憲法依據特赦他保衛就醫的制度被陳水扁已經踐踏到連高雄都為他發生監獄暴動了啦然後這個所謂停審也是為陳水扁量身停審了十幾年11年10年那我就只問一件事情我也請司法院"},{"start":5749.865,"end":5778.238,"text":"當然你不能干預個案可是我要請所有法官也要接受社會公平陳雪扁這個現在狀況停審原因到底還存在嗎所有的人跟陳雪扁一樣能夠接受停審的待遇然後從此之後停審300年逍遙法外嗎如果現在這狀況可以停審他的停審叫無限期你相不相信現在就可以停審的話繼續停審的話那台灣我們的司法公正在哪裡特赦還有憲法總統的依據"},{"start":5779.741,"end":5783.204,"text":"這才是今天整個司法被踐踏的核心原因我們休息一分鐘"},{"start":5811.962,"end":5812.203,"text":"主席"},{"start":5840.137,"end":5840.177,"text":"主席"},{"start":5882.207,"end":5883.488,"text":"現在開始開會我們接下來請陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":5902.927,"end":5929.864,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請我們那個黃長赤請次長我也好好 次長早早好 次長近期因為這個媒體的報導那我們總統在卸任前可能要行使特赦我相信這個早上到現在也許多委員都在關心那這個特赦相關這個討論又"},{"start":5932.273,"end":5961.189,"text":"再度成為我們社會矚目的一個焦點那今天的這一場專報來就我們總統行使特赦相關的法律問題來進行這個討論我們憲法第40條規定總統行使這個大赦特赦減刑及賦權的這個權利換言之就是說以上都是憲法所賦予總統的權利行使與否交由總統他本人來決定之那我想不管是司法院、法務部或是在座的各位"},{"start":5961.889,"end":5976.917,"text":"那都沒有辦法去干涉到總統的這個職權並且這個赦免是總統所採取的政治行為是一種對司法權的一個介入對司法的威望以及權力分立的制度都有相當程度的影響"},{"start":5977.657,"end":5992.87,"text":"那總統應該審慎考慮並以宏觀的這個視角來做出最適當的安排在此我想請教就是現在有對於特赦理由的討論但是從過去的這個案例來看特赦是不是也沒有"},{"start":5994.07,"end":6017.763,"text":"對條件或原因來進行設限我想請市長回覆一下各位報告我們現在有關特赦的規定當然如同委員PPT上所講的是憲法上規定由總統來行使那具體的法律規範的部分就是赦免法的相關規範赦免法有做一些要件上的規定除此之外有關赦免的部分尤其特赦的部分就沒有其他的規範"},{"start":6018.763,"end":6034.932,"text":"好那在就我們法務部所提出的這個書面報告當中有提到說特赦的程序這個赦免法第6條第一項規定總統的命令行政院轉令這個主管部也就是我們法務部"},{"start":6036.112,"end":6063.328,"text":"為這個大赦特赦減刑復權之研議那也就是說請法務部對於特赦進行研議並離去處理建議請這個行政院再陳情給總統那我想請問剛剛政治也大概有回覆那可能總統那邊並沒有明確的指示那不管是被動或主動我們近期內我們法務部這個部內是不是有進行相關的這個評估的動作"},{"start":6065.593,"end":6091.936,"text":"各位委員報告那我再次的強調就是說法務部到目前為止沒有收到行政院或來自於總統的令轉的相關特赦的研議這是第一部分第二部分法務部當然就社會相關的爭議事實或在意的事件法務部所屬的幕僚當然會做相關的研議所以有關於特赦最近的一些各方的意見法務部當然會做一些法律上的研議或者是個案上做一些處理當然會"},{"start":6092.597,"end":6108.894,"text":"好那未來我們有沒有可能會提供給總統什麼方向的一個這個建議各位委員報告我們按照社民法的規定他必須要總統他得要教我們來研議發動權在於總統總統沒有如果沒有發動總統發動權的話我們不會沒有法務部本身沒有發動的可能性"},{"start":6114.462,"end":6142.924,"text":"好 那就我們法務部先前的這個回應來看還沒有得到來自府院的明確消息剛剛那個市長你也很明確的講那但有關這個特赦的業務應該有在處理包括考慮到相關的配套等等那假設假設今天總統決定這個行使特赦權了那後續我們法務部辦理的這個程序相關的這個程序需要多久的時間來完成"},{"start":6144.454,"end":6172.554,"text":"各位委員報告 看它特赦的範圍 如果特赦 特赦有兩種 一個是刑的免除 另外一個罪行宣告無效 看它是特赦哪一種那如果我們接到特赦的特赦令的話 按照我們赦免法第7條的規定 法務部必須要發交證明給受赦免者 那速度會很快因為就法務部來講 我們說特赦令 我們只發交一個特赦證明而已所以相關的程序 特赦令來講 它會很快的合法"},{"start":6174.478,"end":6192.638,"text":"就這個部分我們看到這個赦免法第三條規定受罪行宣告之人經特赦者他免除其刑之執行其勤解特殊者得以其罪行之宣告為無效尤其後段有寫到"},{"start":6193.619,"end":6211.585,"text":"情節特殊者得以其罪行之宣告為無效那我還是請教次長就是說後段所產生的這個效果是否大於前段的部分那是不是這個到底是免刑不免罪還是免刑又免罪"},{"start":6212.205,"end":6239.855,"text":"各位報告特赦大概如同我剛才報告有兩種如果免除刑至執行的話他的罪子還存在的如果他事後再犯罪的話因為刑還存在他有可能會構成累犯那如果罪行都免的話他就等於一筆勾銷他後面如果說再犯罪罪行無效了嘛後面再犯罪他就沒有累犯的問題所以他的法律效果是不一樣的可以這樣子理解沒有錯通俗的理解可以來理解就是說第三條後段的罪行都免除"},{"start":6240.655,"end":6263.688,"text":"無效的話,在法律上的效果會大於前項的刑事執行的免促好,那所以應該還是要看總統如何來裁決才能夠決定最後達到的效果那另外,由於這次的可能被特赦對象身份比較特殊也就是我們之前的元首那近期也有許多包括美國、韓國等"},{"start":6265.249,"end":6286.238,"text":"過去特赦元首的經驗來加入討論即便各國對於特赦的法規有所差異政治體制也不盡相同但是對於特赦元首的這件事情同樣是高度的政治性爭議性的議題那我們法務部是否也有參酌其他國家的案例來研擬更嚴謹的相關配套"},{"start":6289.666,"end":6299.937,"text":"法務部就這個特赦部分當然我剛有提到包括美國、日本跟德國的特赦制度法務部他都有相關的收集跟研議我們也當然會參酌國外有關特赦的經驗來研議適合於本國的相關的特赦制度"},{"start":6308.689,"end":6335.2,"text":"所以我想還是對於特赦與否我們還是尊重總統的職權不管是對於政治的這個衝擊還是對於司法的影響都是總統在決策過程中必須要去承擔的責任那相關的程序及配套需要我們法務部這邊協助辦理的部分也期待能夠透過這次的專報以及媒體朋友的這些報導讓社會大眾更加的清楚了解特赦的範圍跟這個效力能夠來減少這個誤解降低對立對於"},{"start":6338.041,"end":6350.478,"text":"這一次的這個議題本身來講這個理性的討論才有那個功效所以請我們法務部對這個部分應該去審慎評估那再來我想請教就是這個外衣間再傳這個脫逃的事件那在"},{"start":6354.868,"end":6367.493,"text":"這前兩天傳出這個外衣間預期未歸涉及脫逃的這個案子是台南這個明德外衣間的方信受刑人那在11月13日放假期間沒有依規定"},{"start":6368.905,"end":6394.613,"text":"到這個派出所報導但是在原定的這個應該返回的外遺間時間沒有正常的回間的情況幸好是在這個昨天警方已經找到這一位受刑人那我想請教就是目前這個專案小組對於本案所掌握的這個狀況以及處理的情形為什麼這一位受刑人會發生預期未歸的情況"},{"start":6396.249,"end":6414.166,"text":"顧問報告他理論上是這個13號的一點他就應該要返回這個外遺監但後來他遇時未歸嘛那後來本部有掌握他相關的行蹤啦外遺有掌握他相關的行蹤那目前他已經這個逮捕了已經在入監服刑當中"},{"start":6415.794,"end":6431.002,"text":"好那我想請教一下這一次發現他預期未歸從通報到警方開始找人到找到人這個整個過程大概是多久的時間?我們按照規定如果外遺間預期反加未歸的話30分鐘之內我們建議必須要通報"},{"start":6434.864,"end":6436.225,"text":"進行相關的SOB流程都已經規範了"},{"start":6453.188,"end":6477.115,"text":"那目前為止我們還有沒有類似這個這個外衣間脫逃的受刑人還沒有逮捕到回歸的近十年來我們外衣間脫逃人數大概47人到目前為止在就剩下一位大概是花蓮那個外衣這強外衣間在111年脫逃的一個外衣間受刑人到目前為止還沒棄貨其他的都已經棄貨"},{"start":6478.798,"end":6506.35,"text":"那對於預期未歸的這些受刑人在不管是自首或是被逮捕歸案以後會受到什麼樣的懲處?我們都是會以這個脫逃罪來辦理嗎?刑責的部分他當然要負擔這個脫逃罪的偵辦沒有問題另外他原來刑的部分他因為外衣間他因為他脫逃了我們就會轉軌把他轉軌回復到我們普通的監獄繼續服刑另外他在外衣間裡面所受到的縮刑的待遇"},{"start":6506.65,"end":6513.881,"text":"也因為他脫逃會回復到他沒有縮行的狀態所以轉軌在叫縮行的回復那行政的部分當然要追究"},{"start":6515.27,"end":6543.587,"text":"那對於脫逃罪判刑確定的這個收容人所判的刑期若太輕只有幾個月是不是難以達到嚇阻或警惕的效果脫逃罪的部分在目前的刑責三年以下當然外界有些倡議覺得他刑責過低那我目前在修我們刑法上的脫逃罪我們的確是有要提高他刑責的部分把它提高來抑制這個脫逃人受刑人他可能產生脫逃的意念所以我們近幾年外醫監"},{"start":6544.988,"end":6564.481,"text":"這個已有這個數十件的脫逃案件那剛剛次長也有大概講了一下相信我們這個法務部對每個案應該都有進行過這個檢討那我再請教一下對於預期未歸的問題整體的改進方向我們有沒有比較完整的一個檢討方向"},{"start":6565.061,"end":6592.403,"text":"跟委員報告當然從制度面我們剛跟委員報告通報面跟委員報告另外防範面我們外醫監我們現在是試圖的引進我們AI的科技技術就是說讓外醫監是不是戴腳鐐手銬用電子反力的部分讓他反加探測的時候能讓外醫監的這個更能夠掌握這個受刑人所以從科技面從法律面從業務面我們進行來做些相關的檢討"},{"start":6594.617,"end":6608.959,"text":"所以我們外遇監視為了要讓受刑人能夠準備能夠這個銜接社會的一個制度不論是平時低度的這個管理或是反加探親的這個規定我想都是利益良善"},{"start":6609.56,"end":6623.996,"text":"那但相對的脫逃或是再犯的風險也比較高所以畢竟我們沒有辦法完全去掌握一個人的這個行動和想法但是希望這個法務部能夠落實檢討並持續的精進這個外議間的管理"},{"start":6627.58,"end":6650.016,"text":"那也請我們法務部在未來交接的這個過程提醒即將接任的團隊應該要多加注意也不要壞了設立外議間的這個美意也讓我們民眾能夠更加的信任那也讓這個制度可以持續更完善的一個推動的過程好以上謝謝委員好謝謝那我們下一位請謝榮介委員發言"},{"start":6670.855,"end":6675.456,"text":"主席我請秘書長及處長來麻煩秘書長、次長委員好委員好副主長我請教你這個單位比前總統停止審判的規定是什麼因為生病啦依照什麼規定"},{"start":6702.707,"end":6727.644,"text":"是刑事訴訟法就對了刑事訴訟法我現在心中要請教我跟你們說你們跟蔡英文就是民修戰鬥暗渡城牆你們在拚一個跟阿扁的特赦兼託罪的大陰謀我希望司法院不能做幫兇你們叫他們無責來我現在請教你"},{"start":6732.025,"end":6740.553,"text":"平時申報的期間,對所款的事項,是有繼續進行還是沒有繼續進行?沒有啦,這你的檢問勒?欸欸欸,主席啊,他是屬案員的秘書長勒?"},{"start":6754.196,"end":6755.957,"text":"停止審判期間追訴權持效是進行還是不進行啊?欸 主席"},{"start":6781.057,"end":6797.38,"text":"因為這種有時候要很精準要很精準各位專科的好朋友各位台灣的鄉親我剛剛講了蔡英文跟陳帥扁甚至包括秦德兄你們就是在進行這個大陰謀不是只有特赦而已耶今天如果只有特赦我們還勉強接受"},{"start":6808.629,"end":6809.909,"text":"你幫他脫罪你不知道嗎亂來捏停止審判期間就是我們其他的追溯期你的追溯權實效是有在進行還是沒有進行拜託你輸我贏的必輸中來輸中"},{"start":6840.438,"end":6851.289,"text":"追訴權時效會因為起訴跟停止審判而停止進行。那停止進行到一定期間之後,它的停止期間會消滅,會再繼續進行。達到這個追訴權時效80條的三分之一的話,會繼續進行它的時效。"},{"start":6857.114,"end":6879.118,"text":"所以追訴權的時效就會繼續進行嗎?他要停止審判期間超過刑法80條的三分之一那他從哪一年開始停止?你剛剛有說了秘書長你知不知道他講是開始停止審判?這個他現在有停止審判有四個案件這樣時間超過了嗎?秘書長現在現在的追訴權"},{"start":6887.327,"end":6914.154,"text":"是進行還是不進行?現在停止審判當然追訴前是停止的追訴前停止?對他是停止審判那超過時效沒有?這個是要司法院他個案再去計算但從形式上看起來目前是還沒有但個案上我不清楚因為個案是法官他要去判斷我不能夠帶法官去判斷這個追訴前是要計算停止試鏡了這稿子賣了齁這查庫了我等一下再問你齁"},{"start":6915.95,"end":6931.248,"text":"那陳水扁有疾病不能到庭喔他都可以幫女兒去出庭啊做主持人、朱祁鈴啊開節目啊、直播啊、笑VV啊然後他就不能到庭來出庭那這樣秘書長這是什麼原因"},{"start":6940.454,"end":6965.825,"text":"這個還是 原則上這個還是屬於審判核心事項啦齁那基於審判獨立齁審判獨立有個案成審法官你認為合理嗎本於前者來判你認為合理嗎那因為這個由個案來個案歸個案不談個案嘛你認為這種狀況合理欸你該你不是口口聲聲都說被司法改革你認為合理嗎"},{"start":6966.724,"end":6984.811,"text":"因為基於審判獨立齁審判獨立啦是很獨立嘛已經獨立了好幾年了司法行政齁他這種狀態下不出庭你認為合理嗎?你個人認為合理嗎?這個是由個案的陳審、法官、委員牽扯來判斷的阿那你是認為這個法官是恐龍嗎?"},{"start":6990.54,"end":6991.281,"text":"我是很嚴肅來看待這種問題"},{"start":7015.667,"end":7044.32,"text":"我們要來也要看很多資料啊秘書長你每次我問你你都這樣你這樣給台灣人民對司法的改革失去信心我沒便宜因為司法行政有一定不意願我跟你講你們就是故意的啦你們就是故意的停止審判以後他現在已經定驗的案子特赦了然後停止審判到最後沒得審判"},{"start":7045.796,"end":7065.596,"text":"啊你大變成 欸 追訴期過啊 時高大 脫手不及切 你們實在有夠厲害捏啊 你在創這個抗逃 你動作台灣人都笑的就對了那我再請問你 他個人停止審判啊 那其他的人呢 他也沒有生病為什麼不能開庭"},{"start":7068.457,"end":7085.33,"text":"這個還是屬於審判?根據哪一條?法律哪一條?各案的審審法官本於全責會來判那你們司法院有沒有在下級管考?"},{"start":7088.509,"end":7110.604,"text":"有沒有管考嗎?有沒有管考業務啊?法官一般法官的案件如果超過三個月啊沒有進行啊,你們就開始管考了嗎?行政管考有沒有?有沒有啦!有嘛!那這個案子你們有沒有管考嗎?"},{"start":7112.386,"end":7140.82,"text":"那這個這個管考那就是說這個有一定分際啦有一定分際司法行政管考跟司法行政之間我們有一定的分際在啦分際在那當然那你有沒有對這個法官進行檢討啊那就回復到剛剛這個都是屬於審判核心事項你放了阿扁一個其他的共犯全部也都一起放走那不是放水沒什麼叫放水啦"},{"start":7143.872,"end":7148.576,"text":"現在不談那邊嘛 總統要特赦他嘛 難道總統是連其他人都特赦嗎你已經比總統的特赦權還大耶 你赦了好幾個 總統也才特赦一個"},{"start":7159.469,"end":7180.138,"text":"對不對啦這個就向委員說明你現在連總統都不必發布特赦令其他人都沒有罪了啦就向委員說明這個就就剛剛說明的就是說這個還是回憶到個案個案審判好啊好啊你個案你回去你老公叫個案啦喔秘書長我們這樣沒辦法對話了你先坐你先坐啦拜託啦以後你兩忙再來立法院說要司法改革啦真的啦你會漏氣啦"},{"start":7190.145,"end":7192.686,"text":"處長,檢察司跟我來處長你現在這個處長,案件不法的所得已經執行後了嗎?對,犯罪所得的部分已經執行,幾乎執行完畢啦市的案未確定的案件,這樣就表示現在考的錢,都是市的案未確定的案件,對不對?"},{"start":7220.251,"end":7245.761,"text":"對 原則上說這樣喔 補充怎麼會沒來喔 部長沒來 剛剛有跟委員會報告了我 我兩個月前我就在這裡問了喔你知不知道我有看轉播 你問他是不是有 有 有 有 有時候接受到指示阿對 我問說依照特赦法第六條 總統有管理請 行政委員要求 任務單位 來演議阿"},{"start":7250.728,"end":7259.854,"text":"我問他說,有去總統府做這個經濟嗎?他說沒有!我說二月份有沒有?他說沒有!一月份有沒有?他說有!有!有過了!選了的時候,這月十三選了的時候,有立委,好來!我現在又很心動,你是政府處長嘛!對!你要問你的良心,把台灣人民回答!我請教你齁!"},{"start":7279.571,"end":7284.076,"text":"因為這是密件啦,密件啦,他們都很愛用密件,不是你啦我請教你,法務部有收到總統府的諮問,說要延期特赦單位列席的案件的公文嗎?"},{"start":7296.991,"end":7320.924,"text":"跟委員報告整個法務部的公文基本上我都會看到我到目前為止沒有收到看到每一件公文你都能看得到原則上那除非特殊密件對特殊密件有特殊密件就我本身最初的我是沒有看到你可能沒有看到有可能你有可能沒有看到今天是113年5月15日我很慎重跟你為什麼我要跟你問這個問題因為我很有把握有啦"},{"start":7321.744,"end":7342.804,"text":"阿但是我要問你你個人如果你有看到你不能在這裡說沒有我沒有我百分之一千萬沒有看到你個人沒有看到但你有可能也看不到是不是這我就不知道沒有就是如果是密切就是你有沒有可能有公文但你都看不到當然有可能有公文我沒有看到當然有可能有可能當然有可能"},{"start":7343.74,"end":7364.1,"text":"為什麼會這樣你知道嗎?因為這是很機密啦一過分就處理了啦但我現在相信你的在立法院的公報將來會留下記錄啦沒問題沒問題但最近的案件現在有四件嘛停止審判對那這樣 它是什麼理由停止審判?"},{"start":7366.158,"end":7382.826,"text":"這是...他是按照...是司法院的業務啦他按照刑訴法294...所以說他有判斷嘛所以不能審判嘛那這樣他可以替員長出庭去判官司可以主持節目還可以邀請人家去訪問他不知道要不要邀請誰我是不知道啦他如果要邀請我去我怎麼可以來跟他說一句跟他共識一句讓他在場特赦"},{"start":7391.124,"end":7396.65,"text":"如果這樣,為什麼不能出庭?當然你會說這是法院的問題嘛,對不對?如果這樣法院的認定我現在要請教你,停止審判以後,要怎麼繼續可以再審判?"},{"start":7407.525,"end":7427.401,"text":"訴訟法298條規定他停止這個原因消滅的話他當然可以那當事人他可以申請法院來繼續審判他怎麼可以申請就對了298條就是審判的原因消失法院應該繼續審判對不對然後當事人亦得申請繼續審判請問有沒有這一條那我請問你檢察官是不是當事人"},{"start":7438.503,"end":7450.568,"text":"來檢察官他在訴訟法上他的確是當事人298條他是不是當事人看條文他是當事人的話檢察官他是當事人沒有我們主席在這裡喔298條這個當事人得申請繼續審判請問檢察官是不是當事人"},{"start":7459.871,"end":7477.448,"text":"呃 各位報告事實上齁 這個個案在審理當中檢察官公訴檢察官在個案上他的確有表示意見 呃 看這是不是原因他是不是當事人嘛對 他是 他一定有表示意見是不是因此他要免任法院審訟那既然檢察官是當事人 他可以申請法院繼續審判請問法務部"},{"start":7480.55,"end":7494.47,"text":"為何你們一直以來都不申請?跟委員報告 我剛有跟委員報告了我們在個案 我們公務檢察官有在個案上他有提醒法官是否要注意是否原因是已經消滅了是否 應該要注意喔 你沒有申請繼續審判喔"},{"start":7496.358,"end":7523.863,"text":"他有沒有提一個你沒有申請喔對跟委員報告他是不是提一個申請狀的形式我不清楚但個案上他的確有提醒法官要注意這件事你有申請沒有申請這很簡單的事情你你可以把本意刷明嗎有或是沒有跟委員報告我剛已經跟委員報告了有沒有申請這個形式我沒有把握因為他個案嘛但是在個案上我知道他有提醒法官要注意這一個是否原因已經消滅這個事情公訴法公訴檢察官他有做到這一點"},{"start":7524.423,"end":7548.314,"text":"那停止審判的這四個案件不法所得的都算有多少你知不知道因為他還沒有判決確定他沒有辦法去估他的不法所得啦因為他沒有判決確定但是我們起訴的時候沒有辦法估你為什麼給人家扣那麼多錢法官委員報告起訴的時候我們的二次金改的部分是4億4億那是國泰嘛對國泰並司法那買官的呢"},{"start":7555.733,"end":7571.203,"text":"陳允興買官的那罰還呢?就這個案件這四個案件啦四億那你為什麼扣他八億?因為他還有可能刑的部份他有可能罰還啊他可能不是罰還罰金他有可能罰金啊"},{"start":7572.133,"end":7573.294,"text":"陳水扁被赦免此奪公權有沒有一併赦?"},{"start":7602.621,"end":7623.88,"text":"磁頭公權是不是即移的話這要看赦免的範圍這是總統的特權那我現在很明確問你十七就要寫了因為我們赦免有兩種嘛他是刑之執行的赦免還是罪行都赦免罪行都赦免的話當然他的磁頭公權會被赦掉我知道嘛現在只赦刑但是刑有牽扯到磁頭公權嘛"},{"start":7624.36,"end":7626.321,"text":"他不會講指涉刑的部分他現在就是你們已經作業到這一次本次蔡英文總統對錢城總統的"},{"start":7641.207,"end":7660.019,"text":"特赦、刑、刺駝公權的部分有沒有作業?跟委員報告我剛才已經說了他如果指赦免刑的部分他刺駝公權的計算期間開始要從刑法37條第5項規定赦免後開始計算他的刺駝公權所以他原來缺陷半決有刺駝公權多久從那個時間點開始"},{"start":7661.48,"end":7685.413,"text":"所以赦免以後開始計算還是赦免以後連此都公權也沒有這很重要因為我要支持很多人要支持阿扁還在算阿下一任就要把賴清德幹掉阿所以我說看他赦免了這有兩種看總統如果有赦免是赦免哪一種如果現在因為你是業務單位嘛在你們手上作業的嘛沒中今天沒來就做不對阿嘛因為他知道阿"},{"start":7687.018,"end":7701.727,"text":"在赦免的範圍是要總統決定的如果有赦免的話所以現在如果要赦免他的矢頭公權你現在也可能不知道但17號可能會公佈以後 對不對這我沒有辦法預測沒有 就是這樣 我說可能性就這樣嗎"},{"start":7703.717,"end":7704.217,"text":"接下來我們請傅坤祺委員發言"},{"start":7731.108,"end":7752.087,"text":"主席 請秘書長、次長我請兩位分別回答先請秘書長再請次長對於蔡英文總統在卸任前最後一班車最後的兩天來特赦"},{"start":7757.369,"end":7759.329,"text":"請秘書長回答對教育有什麼影響?"},{"start":7779.165,"end":7808.002,"text":"這一部分是不是要特赦那如何特赦我們是尊重總統的職權這他的職權本席在請教你司法就是教化嘛對不對是這個社會公平正義社會秩序最後一道防線對不對請問一下秘書長對我們下一代的教育有什麼影響"},{"start":7809.434,"end":7831.92,"text":"那就是回復到這個還是尊重總統的職權啦現在本席沒有問你尊不尊重嘛你身為一個司法人嘛你是不是司法人是不是那我當然是司法人那你司法的良心請你回答對我們下一代的教育有什麼影響這個"},{"start":7841.797,"end":7858.644,"text":"因為秘書長你站在這個位置上你所代表的就是天平的兩端你就是代表國家的公器站在這裡所以本席請教一下對我們的教育有什麼影響"},{"start":7860.799,"end":7882.255,"text":"因為這兩件事是不是要這樣關聯就是有各有各的看法那個次長請回答特赦制度他當然會對現有判決的效率會產生影響但是他這個本來這個特赦這個特別制度存在的意義他一定會有影響但是他就有他存在的意義什麼樣的影響"},{"start":7884.016,"end":7885.898,"text":"所以對於貪污犯而且身為總統他本身是貪污犯對我們的教育影響多大?次長"},{"start":7914.67,"end":7942.077,"text":"所以本席在今天就請教第一個問題竟然吶代表我們司法天平兩端代表這個國家正義最後的防線連禮譽連詞都講不出來我們都司法已死吧真的司法已死啊你們連一個最基本的一個人格人性該講的話都不敢講"},{"start":7944.039,"end":7944.559,"text":"現在判刑20年確定"},{"start":7975.767,"end":8002.347,"text":"我們要朗讀一下給全國國人再回味一下龍潭購地3億元收賄案陳敏勳買官1000萬元收賄案海角7億洗錢案這海角7億哪裡來的還是搞不清楚二次經改收元大2億貪污案合併執行20年判決定讞保外就醫你特赦好再過來"},{"start":8005.861,"end":8031.041,"text":"國務計要費1.5億元貪污案在民進黨全體力挺之下在立法院正式處罪二次經改國泰並視法收費3億以及洗錢案二審判18年目前停審當中請問一下這判決18年的停審有沒有在這次特赦的範圍內?次長"},{"start":8035.658,"end":8049.408,"text":"各位報告特赦案件按照社民法的規定它原章是限於已經確定的案件才有特赦範圍對所以停審這種案件基本上它不會被特赦的效率所及所以謝謝所以未來還會繼續追嗎"},{"start":8052.901,"end":8075.621,"text":"法務部委員你是講這個沒收的部分還是講審判的部分審判停審的審判當然就是司法院他個案上要繼續你檢察官也要表示意見啊公委員報告我們剛剛已經跟委員說明了在個案上檢察官他事實上公職檢察官有表示意見要注意停審的相關的消滅執照的規定有注意到這個待會本席再請教你請秘書長回答"},{"start":8078.339,"end":8083.583,"text":"今天到立法院來你完全就是來這裡把時間消耗掉沒有關係本席在這裡陪你"},{"start":8104.605,"end":8105.486,"text":"提出法院法官職權"},{"start":8130.014,"end":8156.659,"text":"但是法務部同意把外就醫有四個事項條件哪四項那是外接俗稱的不上台不演講之類的事實相關規定本席再跟你回憶一下不得參加選舉活動不得參加政治活動不得接受媒體訪問不得參與顯然與疾病無關的活動"},{"start":8158.653,"end":8179.882,"text":"陳水扁有沒有觸犯這些問題有沒有有沒有報告這38次的展延的保安就醫都有審酌這些因素啦那個案上台中都有審酌所以法務部跟司法院現在兩隻眼睛都遮住了都看不到只有人民看得到我們的司法看不到是不是"},{"start":8181.069,"end":8199.921,"text":"本席請教一下108年9月28日陳水扁參加民進黨、中央黨部前封街舉行33週年慶台灣派對狂歡這跟疾病就醫有沒有關係?請秘書長回答這跟疾病就醫有沒有關係?"},{"start":8201.068,"end":8225.573,"text":"那這個有沒有關係這些未定讞的案件有沒有關係這個還是由個案法官來本席再請教你有沒有關係這是國會殿堂因為保外就醫請問參加民進黨週年慶的歡樂派對有沒有跟就醫有關這些有些是涉及事實認定啦那在我們施法行政來那個次長請回答"},{"start":8230.225,"end":8245.612,"text":"這是直接跟法務部保外就醫的單書參加派對、狂歡派對、政黨狂歡派對有沒有跟政治有關?有沒有跟政治有關?法務部認為這跟政治有沒有關係?我請教你跟政治有沒有關係?參加政黨活動跟政治有沒有關係?"},{"start":8261.592,"end":8285.066,"text":"當時這個中間審酌是有按參酌相關醫療證明認為這有助於他醫療個人醫療的參加政治活動有助於他的醫療他有很多因素去審酌啦那包括醫療證明也是好108年11月20號陳水扁接受一邊一國行動黨2020立法委員選舉部分區立委提名他接受提名這是不是政治活動"},{"start":8287.222,"end":8304.795,"text":"市長,這是不是政治活動?所以你也看不出來這是不是政治活動?參加政黨正式的提名,是不是政治活動不曉得?法務部現在是龍、蝦、啞,又龍又蝦又啞。當然是法務部的職權,總不是法務部的職權。"},{"start":8316.752,"end":8340.911,"text":"好陳水扁參加凱道這個政治性團體募款參會112年5月26號市長這是不是政治活動各位報告我的答案還是跟剛剛回復委員的答案是一樣他標判準是一樣的那請教一下法務部"},{"start":8344.073,"end":8369.02,"text":"剛剛其實謝榮介委員提到的問題核心你們一直沒有回答停審有沒有影響追溯期主要是在問什麼你知道嗎有啊報告委員我剛剛有回答他是會影響他的追溯權是對他的追溯期並沒有減少對同案的追溯期有沒有減少看同案有沒有停審啊如果沒有停審他就過了追溯期對不對"},{"start":8370.499,"end":8373.46,"text":"所以陳信宇講阿民進黨誰沒有拿過陳水扁的錢阿有沒有共同洗錢有沒有共同對價有沒有共犯關係"},{"start":8399.011,"end":8425.547,"text":"這些人未來被查出來的時候都已經過了追溯期陳馨瑜講的全國人都知道你們就是幫他拖過追溯期是嗎各位報告這個當時在特徵乳查的時候如果有相當的共犯在這裏證告法務部還有司法院如果你們用這種態度在立法院詢答國會殿堂你們用這種態度"},{"start":8428.39,"end":8457.74,"text":"把你們守護國家司法天平人民得到保護跟社會秩序的最後一道防線你們的良知良心都被蒙蔽都在這裡做一些違心之論本席在隆重告訴你接下來我們還有很多還有很多我們的應對方式"},{"start":8460.85,"end":8487.891,"text":"我們不會就此作罷本席要再強調一下特赦陳水扁是不是成為這個社會和解的一個大家共同來思考的問題本席可以考慮也願意尊重"},{"start":8489.568,"end":8515.538,"text":"但是免罪免刑過程大家一定要講清楚還有基本上法務部跟司法院的態度也要很清楚今天為我們的教育影響多大我們下一代的教育原來總統可以貪汙然後可以得到特赦"},{"start":8520.258,"end":8544.23,"text":"當到了總統都還可以貪汙那誰不能貪汙總統可以特赦誰不能特赦我請問一下以後要怎麼教育我們的下一代這就是今天兩位在這裡的表率歷史都會記載今天的詢答我們接下來我們會把"},{"start":8547.429,"end":8576.107,"text":"其他對應的辦法我們也會做相關的準備但是請各位啊不管在哪一個位置不要蒙蔽了我們的初心各位當時走進司法界是抱著什麼樣的理想什麼樣的良知跟態度走進來那今天各位做到的你的子孫也在看你的子孫也會在看這樣做是對的嗎"},{"start":8582.297,"end":8600.534,"text":"謝謝那稍後與林思敏委員詢答之後我們依照先前的宣告處理臨時提案接續請林委員思敏進行詢答主席謝謝請那個次長"},{"start":8608.801,"end":8620.761,"text":"委員好是我想市長依照相關的赦免法的規定那個未來赦免那你是呈總統之令去做相關的研議嘛由法務部來做研議嘛 對不對"},{"start":8622.621,"end":8643.505,"text":"我想依照我們過去中華民國有8次的特赦記錄剛才那個莊惠雄委員他也有乳裂出來了那我想我不依贅述了但是我們看到這個8次的一個特赦有蔣中正總統有李登輝總統陳水扁自己本身這個擔任總統也有兩度的特赦"},{"start":8647.446,"end":8665.693,"text":"那蔡英文總統也這個有兩次的特色一個是針對不農族的原住民獵人王光祿第二次就是針對那個韓玉萍少將以及他的隨從官分別予以這個特色那這些特色案我們詳細去予以去歸類"},{"start":8667.574,"end":8670.337,"text":"大概就是有政治犯有叛亂罪為了透過特赦來達成一個和解也有因為立下戰功也有因為價值理念衝突而處罰"},{"start":8686.954,"end":8696.873,"text":"也有因為族群、宗教信仰的不同而處罰也有因為秦清法眾判決量刑不符社會期待而予以特赦"},{"start":8698.533,"end":8716.647,"text":"那我現在想請問次長那陳水扁前總統他因為貪污案被判刑20年那這個龍潭購地案判刑那麼重那你認為以特赦的理由符合我們前面幾次的特赦的理由嗎?"},{"start":8718.148,"end":8727.942,"text":"因為我一直強調到目前為止法務部還沒有收到正式的特赦令的總統的指示那我們沒有辦法說先做預測那另外"},{"start":8729.889,"end":8753.775,"text":"誰該特赦 誰不該特赦 憲法規定他是總統的特別權利 我也沒有辦法預判市長 但是我想在這邊 因為未來你會乘他的命做原議所以到底總統 我們現在就很好奇 這個總統為什麼要去特赦陳水扁總統其實我在想 最主要的原因 可能就基於說他是前總統 他是民進黨的創黨大佬"},{"start":8758.844,"end":8776.843,"text":"說蔡總統就在下任前就想要給他一個特赦我想基本上給蔡總統的特赦權我們予以尊重我想社會自有公平但在這次我們大家非常引起社會大家非常大的一個疑慮"},{"start":8779.406,"end":8799.003,"text":"就是認為說這次的特赦案的範圍就僅限於龍潭購地案以及買官案另外四個正在停審中的二次經改、國泰病釋滑等四個案件不在範圍內所以他的特赦的正當性備受質疑"},{"start":8799.944,"end":8822.937,"text":"也就是說過去特赦的對象是他已經沒有背負任何的司法案件了他已經沒有任何的這個司法案件正在法院審理中了但是陳水扁總統前總統這個案件他如果這個案件特赦但是他身上還仍然背負四個案件還沒有判決定言所以這樣的情況之下總統要予以特赦嗎"},{"start":8830.083,"end":8849.589,"text":"法務部您的看法您認為這樣子有正當性嗎一個人還背負四個案子竟然總統對他已經判決確定的其中一個案子你要予以特赦站在法務部您是追求公平正義的一個立場您認為對於這樣的一個犯罪人"},{"start":8850.973,"end":8873.945,"text":"罪犯,您認為給他特赦．對得起我們這個社會．對得起這個國家．對得起被判刑確定的人民嗎?各位報告．這個問題剛剛．如同我剛剛所回復而言的．特赦他還是總統．好啦,次長．我想我也不為難你．其實我很想告訴民進黨的朋友們"},{"start":8875.188,"end":8891.837,"text":"在這個四個案件還沒有判決定讞前 蔡總統您要去特赦春水餅真的不服社會的期待我們尊重你的特赦權 但是你要行使特赦權你真的要考慮清楚它的正當性在哪裡"},{"start":8893.174,"end":8920.914,"text":"那其實我個人建議啊如果蔡總統或者未來的賴清德總統你們真的那麼想要去特赦陳水扁的話您是不是等到他這四個案子第一宴之後你再一併全部給他特赦嘛這樣不是更好嗎就基於他是前總統你要尊重他我想我們沒有意見但是在四個案件還沒有判決第一宴前您要去特赦他"},{"start":8923.183,"end":8947.304,"text":"這個真的齁從法的立場來看真的很站不住腳啦很站不住腳所以我也希望法務部還有司法院秘書長 我也希望你們啦現在停審的四個案啦如果您想要讓陳水扁趕快去獲得特赦這四個停審的案件盡快恢復審理啦"},{"start":8948.291,"end":8956.143,"text":"不要再遮遮掩掩了剛才謝龍介這個委員講的啊你那追溯權時效可能都會快快那個消滅了趕快恢復審判嘛"},{"start":8962.087,"end":8987.281,"text":"陳水扁總統你就出來面對嘛你這個停審的原因啊剛才我們的總召副分席委員也講得非常清楚完全不符合相關停審的規定把外就醫還能夠趴趴照啊所以這個完全大家都覺得這個根本不是在實踐司法正義啊而是讓一個人享有特權"},{"start":8988.584,"end":9013.897,"text":"所以我們是希望說如果說真的要特赦他這我的建議陳水扁總統趕快就你的四個案件有罪無罪當然還沒有確定前不敢講但是你面對司法的審理趕快把這四個案件趕快來做出判決的確定定言之後我才呼籲我們不管是未來的賴清德總統"},{"start":9014.737,"end":9035.548,"text":"您再來決定要不要給予特赦我想這個正當性可能會比較夠了市長您同意我的看法嗎我尊重委員的決定也尊重總統的職權民主黨 針對這個停審的原因啊顯然我們看起來就已經消滅了嘛司法院是不是盡速的通知他趕快來重啟審判啊"},{"start":9038.639,"end":9058.002,"text":"這個屬於這個個案,個案的法官選擇他會加以判斷秘書長,這不是個案啦,我想大家都明眼人都看得很清楚啦,您本身也是擔任過法官,法學素養一定非常的深厚嘛"},{"start":9059.229,"end":9085.724,"text":"您認為這個個案您個人判斷啊您看到他這個趴趴照啊這個還符合保外就醫的要件嗎這種案件法官針對這個個案難道還不趕快來重啟審判嗎司法院沒有一個立場嗎司法行政齁這個你們都可以裁量的嘛你們就是完全就是等於說是完全就是齁現在已經把司法正義齁拋在腦後了啦"},{"start":9089.051,"end":9097.393,"text":"只因為他是陳隨便兼總統所以這個不好啦來我最後一個問題再問你一下"},{"start":9099.383,"end":9125.27,"text":"我想我們除了這個特色的問題以外我們這個有關於全國大減刑我們看一下在1971年蔣中正總統有做全國大減刑1975年嚴家幹總統也有那麼1988年及1991年李登輝總統也有做大減刑2007年曾隨便總統任內也有執行所以歷年來也有5次的減刑"},{"start":9127.008,"end":9131.114,"text":"以最近一次的2007年為例,夫兒減刑的資格共有25000人,當時有10943人出獄"},{"start":9142.059,"end":9157.033,"text":"請問當時減刑的原因跟理由是什麼你知道嗎因為它歷史至少有5次的減刑它每一次的減刑它的條件跟理由都不一樣你大概可以敘述一下你還記得嗎我請問一下其中一個原因會不會是因為監索人滿為患"},{"start":9166.069,"end":9184.443,"text":"這是一個附屬的一個效應啦但他不會因為他拿來做減刑的事由啦另外一個是不是總統他大赦天下他要去這個等於說寬幼這些這個犯罪者希望他能夠趕快這個重新做人啊以起自新啊"},{"start":9185.724,"end":9203.826,"text":"所以給予減薪的寬點我們的社民法法上大赦特赦、減薪、復權都有這樣的一個效應就是總統他特別的權力會產生剛剛委員所提的效應是嗎?所以前面幾任總統無次減薪我想其實主要的理由應該就是他給予這些寬點"},{"start":9204.827,"end":9224.887,"text":"他就是展現他的一個讓罪犯能夠有自新機會趕快回復到社會來重新做人一起自新所以我想問你這一次賴金德總統上任有可能實行全國性的減刑嗎?"},{"start":9225.913,"end":9227.715,"text":"法務部也沒有接受這方面的訊息"},{"start":9241.493,"end":9265.066,"text":"主席我再問一個問題那個是因為你剛才一直提到你到現在為止都沒有收到我們行政院總統這個叫行政院下令給你們法務部說趕快做相關這個赦免的研議那請問你如果現在蔡總統的任期只剩下五天左右五天而已那如果他在這幾天"},{"start":9267.337,"end":9288.206,"text":"下令說請你趕快做研議,法務部趕快做研議,你作業上來得及嗎?跟委員報告,赦免法規定他是得交研議啦,他也可以不交,他也可以自己就做赦免的決定,他不見得要交研議。是,他自己直接做就...對,他赦免法規定是得交本部來研議,得,他不見得會交研議。"},{"start":9288.959,"end":9314.139,"text":"那如果他交給你們研議,你們來得及作業嗎?跟我們報告,我剛剛有說事實上法務部就社會上爭議的問題我們事實上都有做一些法制上的研議或法制上的處理啦也不是為了這個個案所以你們有在做預作的研議,著手做研議的?做法律上的討論,也不是就這個案做研議法律上的討論我們當然會做一些先期的處理,當然會任何一個法律上的爭議我們都會所以你會來得及就對了啦?"},{"start":9315.154,"end":9343.958,"text":"假設我們先假設嘛如果說他就是希望你法務部因為他法務部一定要有個說法啊總統自己直接發布這個令這也蠻奇怪的啊不會叫你法務部直接做一個研議的方向給他嗎但法規規上法律上規定他是得啦不一定一定必須是對不是因他是得所以你們作業上來得及啦你就給我回答來得及吧我們事實上我們這個這法律上研議我們會在一定的期限內完成如果必要的話如果有的話"},{"start":9344.999,"end":9345.119,"text":"謝謝 以上"},{"start":9361.316,"end":9379.865,"text":"臨時提案一略以要求法務部於明16日內提供績效報告及上開缺漏之統計數據．並於兩個月內提出檢討及精進報告．內容應並含如下事項一、研議輕微竊盜案件是否於內勤當天．利用遠距視訊、偵訊告訴人．以縮短後續偵查時程．提升還起訴處分．"},{"start":9387.148,"end":9414.602,"text":"提升緩解訴處分或職權處分建樹及書類簡化的可信性以及其他能有效縮短案件偵查時程之具體措施公寓山崎市必先立即起遠距視訊硬體及相關設備的穩定性及便捷性素為使用者所詬病嚴重影響制度的推展及成果應定期或不定期監討硬體設備品質良幼使用情形及研議如何提高偵測執行成效的具體措施提案人委員吳宗憲等"},{"start":9419.731,"end":9427.686,"text":"因為現在還有一個第二個臨時提案剛剛提出來那我們現在一併宣讀第二案臨時提案二"},{"start":9428.922,"end":9456.237,"text":"有鑒於本委員會議事過程屢遭不當干擾．個別委員未經主席允許及使用麥克風．或是刻意影響其他委員發言．建請立法院總務單位．針對本委員會麥克風設置相關靜音裝置．供會議主席維持一場秩序．維護國會形象及品質．以立議事順暢進行提案人委員．羅志強、翁曉琳、傅坤祺、謝龍健．黃國昌、林思敏宣讀完畢"},{"start":9458.387,"end":9481.35,"text":"好 謝謝那如果你們有需要書面我請醫事人員準備好 第二案的書面資料好 那就第一案的部分因為是我提的臨時提案所以我這邊簡單就臨時提案的部分說明那臨時提案的部分主要是法務部過去三年他有一個AI系統"},{"start":9484.099,"end":9485.06,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9501.46,"end":9524.083,"text":"那因為過去已經總共花費的預算是3169萬2千元那法務部對於法務部的報告中並沒有提出到目前為止的具體數據例如說符合這些案件類型的案件數或實際採用的案件數或是成效的滿意度這個都沒有"},{"start":9524.944,"end":9538.934,"text":"那因為接下來法務部他還要再有接下來還有一個三年接下來三年也都還要繼續這個計畫那我們為了說確定這錢是使用在刀口上那是不是真的有這個必要"},{"start":9540.328,"end":9554.615,"text":"那我們當然會依據法務部所提供的數據去了解說我們要持續的支持還是要對這個部分要加以限縮所以我希望法務部明天能夠提那個績效報告"},{"start":9555.885,"end":9574.089,"text":"那另外就是因為還有兩個月內要提出一個研討跟精進的報告那有關那個績效的部分為什麼說明天要提出來給我因為相關的數據法務部之前也給過國科會所以"},{"start":9576.63,"end":9585.027,"text":"但是法務部並沒有給我那我也不懂這個原因是什麼法務部可以給國科會為什麼不可以給我好所以我希望法務部在明天把數據"},{"start":9586.618,"end":9615.129,"text":"能夠給我們然後另外就是也要去思考一下違罪的遠距訊問的一些設備還有那個目前的狀況這來提升緩起訴還有職權處分還有書類簡化的可行性那再來就是遠端視訊他的設備穩定性還有便捷性我們是不是說要定期跟不定期的研討那我的臨時提案的內容如上"},{"start":9621.707,"end":9646.353,"text":"主席本席對這個臨時提案的本意競表同意和支持因為我們要讓我們基層的司法人員能夠減輕負擔公欲善其事必先利其器像不管是AI還是遠端視訊這過去在其他地方都有採行過那提升它的品質跟效率的確是我們要支持的那剛剛主席在提到本案提案的內容之一就是說到明日要提供那因為這個很"},{"start":9647.133,"end":9670.053,"text":"很讓人詫異說短短一天要怎麼提供不過後來主席有做提案說明說因為之前法務部有提供給國科會卻沒有提供給我們召委所以我是不是可以請主席請法務部說明一下為什麼這個東西你可以提供給國科會卻不能給我們本委員會的召委或本委員會那那個是專委員你要先"},{"start":9672.24,"end":9687.552,"text":"剛中委有舉手,中委你要先說明我對如何去有效來縮減整個偵查程序不要讓它過於延宕其實這談的就是訴訟經濟但是我對吳宗憲委員這樣的一個提案我有幾個"},{"start":9696.12,"end":9706.354,"text":"疑慮比如說你說輕微案件是否在內勤當天當然講的應該是指的是檢察官嘛因為檢察官當天利用遠距視訊偵訊告訴人來縮短後續的一個偵查程序"},{"start":9712.002,"end":9725.799,"text":"這當然不用這個車徒這樣的一個勞煩這對被告對整個被徵訊人他本身也有也有他的一個利益經濟上的一個利益可是呢"},{"start":9726.42,"end":9750.123,"text":"就是說輕微的一個竊盜案件有時候啊你也很難去馬上就去判斷說叫輕微案件那你到最後輕不輕微都變成警察局他去做就基層的第一線的人去做判斷有時候檢察官你一問下去啦或者一個案子以後你做你這個程序進行完以後一問下去共犯就一大堆啦那共就是輕微那什麼叫做輕微"},{"start":9751.044,"end":9751.164,"text":"司法委員會議"},{"start":9780.964,"end":9782.029,"text":"跟書類簡化"},{"start":9784.076,"end":9809.266,"text":"他其實又是兩件事又真的又是兩件事那是不是這樣就是提升還起訴其實也未必真的也都未必所以這個部分我是對你的提案裡面我可以知道你的從這個提案的委員代議裡面方向我們大家都一致只是說是不是可以改一下因為這其實是兩件事他那個視訊的這個部分的一個偵訊跟他書類的一個簡化這是兩碼我是覺得這是兩碼事以上"},{"start":9814.916,"end":9836.666,"text":"謝謝莊委員那這個提案說明部分我就簡單補充一下就原則上就是OK好沒問題那因為主要提這個是因為因為現在現行犯那一群受理現行犯我記得經驗其實很多是類似什麼超商竊盜偷個小麵包牛奶那一種那是不是需要用到兩三個警察把他移送到地檢"},{"start":9837.526,"end":9856.52,"text":"這個我們主要是考量一個經濟的問題像兩個警察送一個人犯到地檢署他有時候車程是40分鐘甚至一個小時比如說從大西分局送到桃園地檢署我主要是考量這個那當然這個只是提案給法務部那法務部他可以去設計一個怎麼樣的模式比較適當"},{"start":9857.941,"end":9877.149,"text":"那沒問題那這個文字的部分如果中委員有建議怎麼修正那我覺得大意上我想應該大家都還蠻認同我們簡化檢警的壓力那接下來是不是我們請那個法務部能夠說明一下就是這個數據為什麼有提供給國科會並沒有提供給我們"},{"start":9884.837,"end":9912.923,"text":"各位報告因為AI的計畫它基本上是國科會它就這個整體的國家的相關的有關於這個科學發展動用這個國科會的基金所以它基本上在內控上它必須要定期的向國科會來呈報一些成果績效那至於為什麼沒有報到大院因為這個議題因為大院我沒有印象中大院有要求就是說本部就這個數據要提供過啦所以要提供當然沒有問題"},{"start":9914.224,"end":9924.02,"text":"時間的問題的話是不是因為我們就是說那明天是有點急是不是可以時間再寬限多一點長一點的時間"},{"start":9926.193,"end":9950.853,"text":"一個禮拜讓行政作業了因為這個數據他們已經提供了我們需要那麼久嗎?還有作業的問題他們公務機關大家公文簽簽簽不是說我拿來給你這個禮拜提供好不好因為今天才禮拜三嘛那我想數據提供給我們因為之前我們其實就AI的部分我們已經去問過很多次了部裡面的相關的事情那是不是說你能把提供給國科會的數據給我們就好"},{"start":9953.167,"end":9973.956,"text":"其實那個 社長我們不是要擋這件事我們是要就是把這件事弄清楚而已也許我們會非常支持剛才趙委員提了三天內是不是還是這個禮拜之前對就這個禮拜給我們好不好另外就內容的部分跟委員報告是不是我們司長做一些簡單的回應內容的部分OK"},{"start":9976.332,"end":9998.898,"text":"主席各位委員大家好有關於這個臨時提案的第五行我們建議建過兩次改成達成建過兩次改成達成然後系統部分因為我們沒有系統那是電子檔沒有系統這個系統兩次是不是給他刪除系統兩次刪除另外我們這一個內景視訊是從111年12月1號開始不是5月1號開始"},{"start":10004.019,"end":10025.506,"text":"所以建議把它改成12月1號另外在第二段有關於這個例如例如跨乎例如裡面的這個文具是不是建議符合預設案件類型的案件數把它改成事辦案件的件數因為這樣比較符合實際比較符合實際"},{"start":10028.507,"end":10046.105,"text":"然後有關於實際採用後面加四個字就是視訊解送這四個字就以上的一個修正建請能夠就用這種方式提案以上說明"},{"start":10054.501,"end":10076.685,"text":"那請問一下就各位委員對剛剛那個機關它的這個修改這部分各位委員有沒有不同的意見?有嗎?沒有,我想喔那個是不是給每位委員都一份好不好?不是只有趙薇友會會好那修改後的資料麻煩給各位委員都各一份"},{"start":10078.595,"end":10097.512,"text":"包括他本週內或者下週前提供的這個資料不是只有給召委是給本會委員是是是好謝謝好那如果各位委員跟機關如果說都沒有其他意義的話那我們就依照修正後的文字通過"},{"start":10110.333,"end":10113.654,"text":"提案委員有補充說明?"},{"start":10132.554,"end":10154.922,"text":"我想因為鑑於其他委員會的一個布置狀態跟質詢跟詢答的狀態我覺得在我們司法法制委員會有點獨樹一席就是說每個委員會的席上都有麥克風那發現過去確實有常常會有相互干擾那影響主席這個主持會議的情形所以我的提案重點就是說"},{"start":10155.922,"end":10156.182,"text":"總統行使特赦"},{"start":10172.602,"end":10173.162,"text":"提案委員已經補充說明完畢"},{"start":10205.821,"end":10230.614,"text":"主席還有我們在場所有的委員對於羅志強委員這個提案我競表反對你要看我們各個委員會裡面其實你把它想想看在我們司法法制委員會其實叫做過度攻防那這個其實都是短暫的你說多干擾"},{"start":10232.519,"end":10241.625,"text":"現在整個司法法制委員會啊,沒這樣插來插去,其實也不像司法法制委員會我坐在這邊沒有看到你們吵,我也不太習慣,我真的也不太習慣你說刻意去干擾其他委員,影響其他委員,其實這也沒有啦,那個就是叫爭執啊也不會說羅志強講話,我就跟他說你講什麼什麼有的沒的,這也都不是啦,那個我們從現場都可以判斷的出來啦"},{"start":10256.654,"end":10280.467,"text":"這個其實就是意見的一個不同那表達方式大概會難免會有所不同那剛好都是碰到議題啦議題是極度的一個爭議我倒這樣建議啦這個案子 羅委員先再思考一下啦不要處理這個案子啦不然人家會說羅志強講話 大家會把他靠他去影響不然你講話 你兩個就死 我如果要亂 你兩個就爽"},{"start":10282.288,"end":10285.032,"text":"你去看啦,我們司法法制委員會如果做這個限制以後啊,大家都會去牽拖嘛,那整個院會呢?"},{"start":10298.064,"end":10305.568,"text":"講這個委員會你可以講得義正直言其實你去看真正在院會裏面每次拿著麥克風大吵大鬧都是你們國民黨我不好意思說而已但是我覺得很好欸我覺得你們吵得很好我這邊聽得我很悅每次在表決我如果不聽你們國民黨的啥麥克風在那邊亂一下我說的就不像國民黨啊"},{"start":10316.789,"end":10317.67,"text":"這個其實都考驗主席的功力"},{"start":10342.398,"end":10349.259,"text":"有時候我也知道你調體今天我們司法法院法制委員會不怕頭你用調體給頭有時候把酒給阿嬌喝了阿嬌阿嬌我怎麼知道所以這個是我們司法法制委員會留下一個這會期我們就讓它優雅一點就繼續把它給炒下去意見不同不斷的攻防是好事我也沒看到罵來罵去的人出去像仇人"},{"start":10368.843,"end":10387.006,"text":"不會啦 不會啦 那個這個過度攻防在司法法制委員會 過一陣子大家熟了以後啊不然你跟傅坤祺今天再說 我就不用插手了 也要插手了他講什麼我都不想聽了 那他如果傅坤祺總召他講什麼話我都不想聽 沒有頂他兩句 他回到花蓮區他會覺得我今天都沒有人捧場"},{"start":10388.152,"end":10407.189,"text":"這也不太好,這個召委我是建議羅志祥委員先把這個再考慮一下啦,不要衝這個啦這個就有一點變成有個人的,個人的好像有點在報復啊不要牽扯到個人啦,這個司法法制委員會裡面既然要熱熱鬧鬧就讓他去吵了,熱熱鬧鬧司法法制委員會反而是這麼尖銳的一個議題工坊,讓社會去評價就好了啦"},{"start":10414.835,"end":10434.968,"text":"譬如說你講話我給你騷擾你的支持者一定會幹掉我嘛社會大眾會覺得中華選會怎麼這麼沒有禮貌嘛那這種事不要在我們司法法制委員會去限縮這一些啦不好啦國會自主當然我們也希望有它一定的一個秩序但是這些刻意的去限縮那個射程都會很遠啦這樣子"},{"start":10436.169,"end":10436.81,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":10461.675,"end":10485.732,"text":"好 謝謝莊委員總委我沒有那麼聰明還會幫大家設計鏡頭我沒那麼厲害好 那個蔡委員剛先舉手好 來我附和我們莊委員因為你如果看到你委員會你說麥克風要搭管子的靜音系統是司法委員會有這個獨立的這個麥克風其他委員會是使用無線的"},{"start":10487.165,"end":10500.13,"text":"他用無線的阿,阿你意思說其他委員會阿要比照這個精神,不是說阿我們也是要把牆製打關起來,阿是每一個委員會都會有用麥克風的一個狀況,阿你現在要用一個精英系統,阿到時候求院會開會的時候,國民黨就撒自己的麥克風來,這樣我們以後要用一個可以打那個,遮斷"},{"start":10510.964,"end":10521.391,"text":"這段信和傳播都來用燈所以這個下去沒完沒了啦我會覺得像剛才總委員講的本來議題就是會討論討論有時候會精俗有時候會講到開花那本來就是討論的過程啊總不能說你連這個討論的過程都要把它精簡掉都不可以討論我認為這也不好過去民進黨在以前就是多數的時候也是一樣會有討論也是會有吵"},{"start":10539.264,"end":10539.284,"text":"總委員"},{"start":10565.054,"end":10581.959,"text":"謝謝主席我想誠如前面兩位委員所表達的其實在我們立法院除了委員會中心主義之外委員會都有各自自己的傳統這個傳統不是我們在做我們幾任的任期就可以形成的我舉例來講可能幾位"},{"start":10583.669,"end":10609.707,"text":"新科委員有沒有發現財政委員會他的簽出席跟簽到發言呢沒有說到8點才在排隊那邊等簽發言的他們是晚上4點來早上4點來依序誰在那邊搶搶的到7點半就按照那個時候就簽了發言簽完發言之後他們就好整以暇8點到各委員會去簽那這個我們如果不在財政委員會我們可以去干預嗎?不會"},{"start":10610.948,"end":10634.808,"text":"那財政委員會有因此,別的委員會沒有這樣子,他就改變嗎?沒有。所以其實啊,一個有歷史傳統的國會,慢慢會形成他的各自的文化。好或不好,你喜歡或不喜歡,他就是一個。那我們司法法制委員會,目前的這個桌上麥克風,就跟其他委員會不一樣。在財政委員會,過去叫做預算委員會,最常在審預算,審預算一大堆人,所以為什麼財政委員會在九樓大禮堂?"},{"start":10635.589,"end":10649.353,"text":"但是真正審預算的時候也是誠如剛剛蔡委員說的就是一人一隻手持麥克風跟主席在對談那主席有坐在哪裡?那時候主席不會坐在主席台上主席都坐在剛剛現在放法典的那個地方為什麼?便於討論"},{"start":10651.474,"end":10678.192,"text":"但是那時候那麼近為什麼要麥克風呢麥克風是要議事人員收音之用因為預算審查的時候每個委員他到底什麼理由刪除多少保留多少怎麼樣那個都要議事人員要很清楚所以我要強調的可能大家一時看到這是在議場的議事衝突或是委員會的程序那個其實都不是我們國會審議的正常的常態真正的常態就是大家"},{"start":10679.013,"end":10693.438,"text":"面對面你一言我語很迅速有效率的討論那主席也只有在會議秩序混亂的時候才會出來整理所以我相信吳召偉或者本席輪值召委的時候我都會盡量的讓大家的互動討論盡量的順暢簡單講"},{"start":10697.032,"end":10711.392,"text":"會議的主席你可以說他是交通警察你可以說他是裁判其實呢在籃球場上有時候大家碰撞一下裁判不會馬上吹犯規所以我是覺得這個案子呢避免有一種針對性的如果真的要說針對性"},{"start":10712.754,"end":10733.395,"text":"我大概可以理解這個提案提出的原因就是在前天我們司法法制委員會的會議室被草野協商借用來使用那為什麼草野協商用這裡呢幾位新科委員跟大家報告一下過去我們的草野協商都在一廠三樓的那個會議室那個會議室的格局就是這樣子每個人面前都有一個麥克風"},{"start":10735.037,"end":10735.077,"text":"主席"},{"start":10755.259,"end":10777.896,"text":"那為什麼不到九樓大禮堂因為九樓大禮堂沒有這樣的桌上麥克風所以其實這樣的一個演變會跑成政黨朝野協商跑到利用302的紅樓302的會議室是有這個原因的所以大家不要因為一時的大家的意識的一個互相的互動就做出這樣的一個決定不然陳如超委員說的難道無線麥克風你都可以裝靜音嗎"},{"start":10779.434,"end":10796.208,"text":"這樣會讓人覺得有爭議性那剛好這個提案內容其實我也很想就教於提案委員本來他沒有加他後來加了一個什麼字加了說維護國會形象及品質我認同我們的會場要有秩序要由主席來維持"},{"start":10797.469,"end":10815.865,"text":"但是國會形象跟品質不是靠這個可以把國會議員任意的要驅逐出場嗎?可以不經討論就要近乎表決嗎?這些都才是社會關切的這些國會的形象內容在我們這個會議室當中每位委員都可以出席"},{"start":10817.199,"end":10844.019,"text":"包括秘密會議都有一個限制上符合的要求但是委員要發言當然我們要尊重由主席來裁決但是有時候在一些會議的進行情況你願我欲當然會有一點點混亂但是只要議事能夠進行大家不要採取過當的手段去造成這樣的一個針對性的情況我再次強調其他的委員會雖然沒有桌上型的麥克風但是都有無線麥克風他能裝靜音嗎"},{"start":10846.84,"end":10866.011,"text":"第二目前這樣的配置剛好可以補我們草野協商一場三樓空間不足的情況你要把那樣的情況放到這裡來再抓到這種情況我想包括在場過去在第九屆我們黃總召黃國昌委員代表時代力量的時候我們看到在那裡"},{"start":10866.952,"end":10884.767,"text":"不管是蘇院長還是游院長都盡可能的讓每一個政黨的代表參與相代表盡可能暢所欲言從來沒有在議場三樓後面三樓的會議室上去使用靜音的裝置頂多如果大家太熱烈了主席會說我們休息一下"},{"start":10885.367,"end":10886.587,"text":"我來這個台就示範一下基本上不要講得這麼嚴重"},{"start":10915.39,"end":10930.585,"text":"還有這兩個麥克風在我講的是桌上型那第一個如果真的照這個我們鍾嘉賓委員講這麼傳統這麼神聖啊這兩個台也不該放上來嘛不是嗎這兩個台是我們共同決議放上來的啊"},{"start":10932.004,"end":10960.23,"text":"我們提議你們同意啊柯建民總召當時也是認為說怎麼會把這兩個質詢台拆掉他也不認同他直接講的啊所以那次基本上是無意通過把這兩個台放上來的所以我要講一個重點是什麼你剛剛講的無線麥克風唉拜託我們到別的委員會你平常有看到無線麥克風拿出來在質詢的時候嗎在桌子上講嗎第三個我要跟你講大家都在備詢台上跟質詢台上講的啊"},{"start":10962.366,"end":10977.379,"text":"沒有我跟你講預算審查一回事啦我先跟你講嘛至少本人本人發現其他委員會沒有桌上型麥克風也沒有影響到你的意識跟詢答的模式啊第四個我要跟你講很簡單啦"},{"start":10980.021,"end":10993.191,"text":"欸 設個總開關而已嘛 也不是 今天說真的國民黨是一直很客氣啦 你們每次按個麥克風 按著 主席就在那邊吵半天你們真的有聽主席才是說 主席準發言才發言嗎 沒有啦"},{"start":10994.332,"end":11004.419,"text":"我剛剛自己上來這邊台上講話我去清清楚楚那主席就可以指定誰上來阿兩支麥克風都在阿開個總開關也沒把麥克風拆掉也歡迎今天黨團協商來借302阿302的時候總開關開了大家又可以在這邊討論阿用桌上麥克風預算審查需要一樣麥克風總開關一開一樣可以討論阿"},{"start":11016.388,"end":11034.386,"text":"所以換言之沒有你們講那個樣子只是今天鑑於過去我們這將近三個月來我看到司法法制讀書一次跟其他委員會完全不相同的做法你講無線麥克風可以啊無線麥克風一樣比照大家有我們也有啊但別的委員會竟然裝上型麥克風平常是沒有的"},{"start":11036.969,"end":11040.932,"text":"我們也就設個靜音總開關而已那很簡單就是讓我們的意識可以更順暢否則說真的我直接講我承認啦好不好中委員我直接承認啦我覺得我們的那個柯總召每天按著那個麥克風心海羅盤我真的有點受不了啦"},{"start":11054.414,"end":11067.25,"text":"他要不是完全不拉星海羅盤啊到上面那個台上一樣繼續星海羅盤沒關係所有人看過這一段時間的直播齁都是我們總召多少時間按著那個麥克風不放啊所以拜託齁"},{"start":11070.053,"end":11094.889,"text":"讓我們總召能夠有一個莊嚴的新海羅盤發表地啦所以可以到上面台上去講啦所以我的主張還是很簡單就是開一個總開關平常我們在委員會審案的時候沒有需要的時候要上來就上這個質詢台跟備詢台你甚至有需要的時候打開寫上介302我覺得很好啊做到一些麥克風就可以來打開來讓大家討論啊沒有那麼了不起啦"},{"start":11099.552,"end":11118.829,"text":"謝謝那沈委員主席齁各位這個案子看起來是沒什麼啦齁但只是我是這樣覺得建議大家啦齁如果說這種這種這個麥克風這種問題弄到等一下又要表決齁那實在是在司法法制委員會實在是說實在是蠻難看啦齁那這個"},{"start":11122.293,"end":11149.256,"text":"其實剛才羅志強委員所講的其實因為你可能去別的委員會都是只有去發言了事實上發言完之後每個委員會都還有很多討論他們就是桌上請麥克風很麻煩每天的飲食提案這個要講話那個要請行政機關說明麥克風傳來傳去並不是每一個委員自己都有一支捏傳來傳去那我們現在有這樣子這個司法法制委員會有設置這個桌上請麥克風這基本上是一個進步"},{"start":11150.942,"end":11171.496,"text":"使我認為每一個委員會都應該要坐上警麥克風便於國會議員在這裏的發言那不過現在談的是這個靜音裝置那我就覺得說像這樣子的問題其實整個議事的過程裏面剛才羅志強委員說我很受不了你們這樣一直發言但是這個作為多數黨因為你們表決會贏"},{"start":11174.491,"end":11189.268,"text":"所以你們就應該要忍受少數黨在整個審查過程中所有的在議事規則手段之下的杯葛這個我覺得這個是天經地義的這是民權初步這個也不到議事規則的程度了"},{"start":11190.029,"end":11202.723,"text":"那你這個東西你說做成了決議我們現在立法院齁我們立法院這個是我們立法院自己的規定齁我們立法院議場安全維護管理要點第7條他就明定會議時委員不得攜帶麥克風走達達達進入會場"},{"start":11205.848,"end":11214.673,"text":"但是我們每次院會國民黨團就是到目前為止只有國民黨團帶麥克風進去這個議會自從這條規定定了以後只有國民黨團帶我們還有還曾經國民黨團跑到民進黨黨團來因為我們委員看不下去就去把你們的麥克風偷搬回黨團還去告我們民進黨的委員說偷你們的麥克風"},{"start":11231.297,"end":11246.833,"text":"所以這個明定的規定我們如果國民黨團以後從這裡我們副總召在這裡可以代表國民黨說在這裡宣示說以後我發誓我國民黨改邪歸正以後絕對不會再拿自己帶麥克風進去議場那我覺得那我們就來規範所有美國委員會看麥克風怎麼使用"},{"start":11252.998,"end":11274.371,"text":"那這個裝一個靜音裝置不是說什麼多大的問題啦我只是覺得說在這裡表決這個我認為不妥啦我認為不妥難看啦好像說我在這邊如果說我提個提案說我在司法法制委員會齁這個有的委員發言的是音量實在是大到我受不了所以我是說我們要設置一個裝置如果委員講話聲量超過多少分貝自動斷電"},{"start":11276.015,"end":11276.075,"text":"主席"},{"start":11305.241,"end":11333.581,"text":"呃我進表剛剛各位講的我都同意啦這是難得審判會委員說要有次序啊今天我們很難得民進黨立委嘴裡講出議場要有次序真的很難得啊民進黨立委終於講出要有次序啊這不容易啊我們就是因為要有次序所以才訂了提的這個臨時提案"},{"start":11334.718,"end":11353.993,"text":"我要特別表達,從第4屆、第5屆、第6屆、第7屆、第8屆立委,民進黨連鐵鍊都拿進來了,白天正題什麼都有,還有把所有立委的椅子都把每一個門都堆起來,然後鎖上。"},{"start":11356.109,"end":11373.556,"text":"我都親眼看到齁堆在那裡所以齁上一屆是國民黨走的兩次你在講話人家都沒有插你的嘴啊對不對一個基本的尊重嘛基本的尊重嘛有嗎所以喔我要特別強調就是說這一屆這一屆議場要怎麼樣持續維護"},{"start":11383.462,"end":11384.362,"text":"我特別強調一個 如果今天完全是"},{"start":11414.625,"end":11441.374,"text":"說可以怎麼樣然後不要有次序那以後院會質詢就不是30分鐘15分鐘阿講到我高興下來再下來那院會質詢可以問3個小時5個小時嗎不是充分表達嗎當然要有一個次序嘛所以我要特別強調這個會期到現在經過協商以後國民黨完全照協商規則走要特別強調這個"},{"start":11443.334,"end":11445.135,"text":"因為兩邊沒有共識大家就發洩情緒而已啦"},{"start":11469.147,"end":11493.215,"text":"主席要有耐性 主席要有耐性 當召委真的要耐性讓我們的委員針對這個案子表達意見這是基本的每一個人至少表達一次嘛 對不對那如果這樣 那委員你可不可以就趕快總結不用再一直重複同一個議題了因為我們不要耽誤其他委員的時間我覺得在司法法制委員會最大的問題是永遠要閹割別人講話的權利"},{"start":11496.361,"end":11521.056,"text":"現在連麥克風都要消音這件事情姿勢體大姿勢體大它涉及的才是不折不扣的國會尊嚴大家都看過英國國會開會吧英國國會上下議會我們講下議會一人坐著非常近的距離他們可以針對激烈的議案裡頭爭執"},{"start":11523.462,"end":11546.527,"text":"彼此大聲的呼喊對話那是英國的民主民主是什麼就是大家可以講他想講的話在國會殿堂表達他的主張我真的很難以置信原本之前羅志強委員他似乎有要提一個案是說沒收麥克風"},{"start":11548.103,"end":11573.659,"text":"後來好像是沒有提還是沒有討論到那今天轉了一個彎就是麥克風還是可以設在這裡因為我想羅委員也知道說這個辦公室除了平常我們司法法制委員會開會之外也會有朝野協商或其他會議要使用所以換湯不換藥今天的提案內容改為把它消音這樣子但是任何一個議事的進行都是考驗主席"},{"start":11574.64,"end":11601.822,"text":"是否公正處理像我剛剛也要嚴重的抗議我明明是第一在這一輪我比副總召還要早舉手我在跟審法會委員一起舉手的時候您就會略過然後讓副總召先發言如果我要抗議您剛剛的主持不公我唯一的方法也是按下麥克風向你現場抗議但是我隱忍"},{"start":11603.618,"end":11623.55,"text":"所以主席是一個意識運作能不能夠維持秩序讓大家都能夠不去動氣不要有情緒最重要的那個關鍵的人物叫做會議的主席好你今天要設一個消音器那請問什麼時候誰可以決定可以消音"},{"start":11625.314,"end":11652.172,"text":"這樣子的權限就是把國會委員發聲的權力給消音、給沒收這件事情滋事體大這是臺灣中華民國國會非常嚴肅的課題可以因為委員的不耐委員不喜歡聽誰的心海羅盤我不認為柯總召說的事情不值得其他委員去借鏡那是他30多年國會的歷練"},{"start":11654.209,"end":11672.464,"text":"大家都要坐在這裡去自我內化自己的修養民主就是不同的意見你必須遵守必須聆聽等一下主席我還在發言您可以請坐下來嗎剛剛前面的委員也都發言很長好嗎我站著聽你講啦我怕您腿酸啦好不好"},{"start":11675.452,"end":11690.172,"text":"主席是一個重要的主持意識的那個靈魂人物而且我更要說今天在這個會議室桌上的這一台麥克風他所代表的意義不只是坐在這裡的國會議員他所行使的名義"},{"start":11691.374,"end":11718.215,"text":"更重要的是這個麥克風他關切議事人員在後續的文字記錄能夠清楚的他可以被錄音他可以精確的如果那場會議當中有什麼樣的法案文字或是預算的數字聽不清楚他可以recall他可以再去聽確保所有的議事記錄是精準無誤的讓每一個人的發言都是精準呈現的"},{"start":11718.755,"end":11723.117,"text":"現在就要考驗主席主持的公義了現在就要考驗主席主持的公義了現在就要考驗"},{"start":11746.588,"end":11755.257,"text":"的團員會主席主持的公立嗎?聯合縣招委沒有主持的公立嗎?現在正在發言．據誰在發言．現在正在發言．"},{"start":11767.329,"end":11768.511,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":11788.09,"end":11806.935,"text":"好,這樣,OK,好了,結束齁還在進行發言沒有,那個,先等一下,先大家都等一下我就是示範一下大家都先冷靜一下好,你示範完了,可以讓我繼續發言嗎?我沒有動怒啊,我保持風度啊"},{"start":11808.795,"end":11820.838,"text":"主席請考驗主席的主持能耐現在是誰在干擾本席的發言現在是誰在"},{"start":11823.542,"end":11839.31,"text":"這是要考驗主席主持的功力我剛剛還沒有論述完好嗎主席我還在發言中我還在發言中吳宗憲主席這是考驗您主持的功力"},{"start":11843.593,"end":11856.025,"text":"那我可以繼續嗎我還在發言我們會議中是不是說當有人在發言的時候其他人你不要按麥克風來插嘴至少我們先這樣好不好"},{"start":11857.766,"end":11874.243,"text":"我順便跟吳氏雅委員說明一件事情並沒有所謂的什麼先讓副總統講你再講我跟你講我盡量因為雙方正反兩方一個講完再換一個我跟你講一個講完再換一個我覺得我的做法是這樣"},{"start":11877.072,"end":11879.274,"text":"Calm down, please."},{"start":11879.274,"end":11880.115,"text":"Calm down."},{"start":11901,"end":11902.302,"text":"主席我還在發言當中我發言繼續喔所以我說我們桌上的這一位"},{"start":11909.639,"end":11910.079,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11933.994,"end":11942.14,"text":"所以這一台麥克風在桌上它除了它有實際上的方便我們議事人員能夠精準記錄任何一個預算數字跟法條的文字的討論過程它必須精準呈現所以這個收音是有必要它是一個系統是方便議事人員這是功能之一功能之二也是讓線上所有的一起現在透明公開是國會的開會議事程序的必要"},{"start":11962.276,"end":11964.477,"text":"所以說讓國會能夠真正的透明公開有的時候如果沒有透過麥克風的發言在收音的系統在網路直播的呈現上完全沒有辦法聽見委員在爭執的內容議案的討論是什麼"},{"start":11978.582,"end":11994.031,"text":"所以如果要進行國會的透明公開我們需要這一個重要的麥克風是每一個民意代表、國會議員他發聲最重要的協助他聲音、民主、論述、辯論的武器"},{"start":11997.253,"end":12015.394,"text":"不可以這樣來沒收他不是只是一個行而下的麥克風他是一個行而上的國會議員基於民意、質詢、職權的行使所以我要跟主席我個人是完全沒有辦法接受這樣一個提案基於我們議事記錄的必要"},{"start":12016.795,"end":12017.015,"text":"主席"},{"start":12033.678,"end":12052.255,"text":"很好委員是不是能夠做到自律我們可以交換意見彼此約束但是如果今天羅志強委員在司法法制委員會提出這樣一個臨時提案那我要問同樣是關乎國會議員的自律也就是民進黨提出的國會改革方案的議事規則MeToo的條款國民黨不給我們審查"},{"start":12056.579,"end":12078.591,"text":"那是攸關國會議員的自律為什麼民進黨提的國會改革方案議事規則裡面有關保密、洩密的相關行責相關的自律行為國民黨不讓我們半個條文進入實質討論今天就提案論提案羅志強委員的提案是要求國會議員的自律我支持自律可以討論"},{"start":12079.992,"end":12087.316,"text":"但是為什麼你提的這個要沒收麥克風消音裝置的提案可以在這裡被討論但是民進黨的國會改革方案攸關權責相符的國會議員的自律半個條文都不讓我們審查"},{"start":12096.622,"end":12101.727,"text":"這就是現在這個失靈失序的國會最嚴肅的議題如果今天要討論這個提案要透過表決的話那是不是也讓民主進步黨的職權行使法、議事規則乃至於立法委員行為法同樣都可以在這裡像現在一樣大家輪流站上發言台去表述他的意見透過討論、匯聚共識如果真的不行要表決"},{"start":12122.765,"end":12145.935,"text":"也要經過這個對人民對社會論述的過程所以主席現在還在講手機所以我可以繼續說這樣一個提案萬萬不可這一個麥克風它不是一個形體物體的麥克風它代表的是113個國會議員他行使的憲法賦予的我的國會職權"},{"start":12148.197,"end":12172.511,"text":"所以我反對這樣的議案我也認為不應當進入表決大家不需要自律的行為如果這樣那請讓我們審查我們的國會改革的立法委員行為法跟議事規則同樣都在討論國會議員的自律行為好嗎這樣齁我覺得既然雙方的認知差那麼遠我就直接進行表決好了而且我覺得沒有我跟你講我這邊決議直接進行表決"},{"start":12173.891,"end":12199.03,"text":"你要提什麼修正動議修正文字的動議啊 怎麼可以修正動議可以提出來啊那我先 我可以說明一下吧不是啊 因為我跟你講啦我跟你講啦 既然大家覺得所有主持不公嘛 對不對我解釋你們又聽不進去 那就直接表決吧這樣最清楚嘛 這少數服從多數啊 大家就來表決啊那我就依照議事規則進行表決啊"},{"start":12214.439,"end":12235.268,"text":"來 主席啊小金公啦 小金公 你實在好厲害"},{"start":12241.391,"end":12264.509,"text":"來個主席阿來來來主席阿我建議齁我一個建議啦回憶的建議啦齁因為這個案勒當然也不是敏感啦那議事規則的過程包括國會之律每個議場都一樣全國大小議會都一樣齁但是也都各有道理"},{"start":12265.714,"end":12278.726,"text":"那應該先休息其實讓提案人跟他們召集人我認為還有協商的空間大家可以緩一下為什麼因為這兩個發言台不是可以消音嗎對不對"},{"start":12281.132,"end":12297.044,"text":"這兩個消音台是可以消音的嘛那主席上面有一個消音器嘛所以是不是大家協商一下那也許可以觀察也許可以有另外的作為那緩一下那剛剛"},{"start":12298.365,"end":12314.681,"text":"提案人也願意說大家可以就這個國會自主裡面其實言論自由當然很重要可是也確實這兩個多月來民進黨確實干擾的次數比較多我在這看得很清楚"},{"start":12316.345,"end":12329.371,"text":"民進黨少數干擾多數的比較多所以我建議先休息五分鐘讓他們去協商那這有跟這部分齁我這邊先宣告一下我這邊先宣告一下"},{"start":12330.7,"end":12345.897,"text":"今天不是說我講話大聲 因為沒辦法 我不再喊大聲大家聽不到我在講什麼 大家一團亂 比國小班會還不如啦那請大家回去研讀立法委員行為法 你在開會的時候你就要服從主席的約制嘛 但是沒有人甩我啊"},{"start":12347.332,"end":12364.419,"text":"好那不用講那麼多今天如果今天如果我有違反任何議事規定的話那你們該怎麼處理都怎麼處理今天主席主持對或不對不是你莊銳雄一個人講就算了不用不需要現在休息現在休息"},{"start":12592.125,"end":12615.673,"text":"好那我們現在開始開會我們先上午會議時間我們進行至所有登記法院委員詢答完畢為止那強哥是要補充首先"},{"start":12617.39,"end":12638.95,"text":"剛剛跟我們的鍾嘉斌這個委員我們稍微聊了一下我覺得也認同啦很多的我們的國會的議事的討論大家都在進行當中也可以做調整一旦形成新的默契跟共識大家就執行不一定要做設備端的調整我舉個例子剛剛你們一直在談到說那個"},{"start":12640.111,"end":12663.113,"text":"院會的時候 國民黨拿麥克風必然摘下我就被做新聞的那個我想如果有看到我當天就道歉了而且我就承諾我再也不會拿麥克風去因為跟各位坦白講我並不知道那個規定所以這是我願意認錯然後願意改進那後來國民黨也再也沒有拿麥克風進到院會這一點我想要澄清一下但是我覺得這就是一個好的方式嘛"},{"start":12663.914,"end":12681.545,"text":"把規矩訂立之後那有的就是我們透過大家的協商默契來改變我們接下來的這個議場的文化因為剛剛跟嘉賓召委講說還是讓大家用自律的方式啦那我覺得這一點我能接受啦我也認同所以換言之我也是希望說經過這個提案"},{"start":12683.866,"end":12698.202,"text":"以後大家桌上行的這個麥克風你要講可以啦先經過主席同意先舉個手說主席我要發言主席說yes之後你再去按這個麥克風若是這樣的話是經過主席同意的話那我覺得大家都能夠自我約束我覺得沒有問題"},{"start":12704.289,"end":12731.819,"text":"但是如果說不能夠自我約束我也接受大家如果還是像過去這三個月有忍不住的衝動想按這個麥克風到時候再來提這個臨時提案也來得及所以這一點我覺得嘉賓委員跟我提的一個意見我覺得我能接受所以今天在這個地方我就是把我的那個提案延後先往後延後但不限期延後也許我們的文化就建立了那也拜託大家我們所有的委員包括我自己"},{"start":12732.97,"end":12743.561,"text":"主席沒有才事之前不要按這個麥克風讓主席方便來去做這個議事上的一個這個主持跟進行以上那我就先把我的案子撤回言後以上謝謝"},{"start":12747.21,"end":12751.452,"text":"請問修正文字後的提案第一案各位有拿到了吧那請問"},{"start":12771.092,"end":12782.998,"text":"就這個修正後文字有無異議沒有異議的話那臨時提案第一案就依照修正後文字通過接下來我們請中嘉賓委員發言"},{"start":12801.158,"end":12818.887,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關所長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請司法院吳秘書長及法務部黃次長好,麻煩秘書長、黃次長那是不是那個行廳的李廳長也幫忙陪同,協助我們秘書長好"},{"start":12824.144,"end":12838.38,"text":"那個秘書長、次長我的標題是總統特赦權不影響司法判決不法所得處分非刑罰維持沒收我先看第一頁這是1996年時任總統秘書長吳博雄他說"},{"start":12842.004,"end":12869.948,"text":"國家元首行使赦免權是以行政權即司法權之窮為法治國家權利分立原則的例外情形．他的目的在緩和對立、促進團結請問秘書長你認不認同這樣的一個對於總統特赦權的描述總統特赦權會影響到司法判決嗎?可以事後去影響司法判決嗎?可不可以?"},{"start":12873.147,"end":12876.768,"text":"這段談話是當年1996年總統府秘書長吳博雄所說的,你認同他這樣的一個描述嗎?"},{"start":12890.653,"end":12917.505,"text":"吳前秘書長這樣我尊重他的說法請問次長你認為這樣的描述是否允當基本上前半段他是一個客觀的描述他的確是一個權力分立原則的例外但後半段他是不是有緩和對立促進這涉及到一個價值觀的判斷所以你認為其實總統特赦權不能在事後去影響先前的司法判決是不是這樣"},{"start":12919.842,"end":12923.643,"text":"特赦學員不會在事後去影響司法判決?有沒有改變之前的司法判決?沒有嘛!"},{"start":12944.671,"end":12945.812,"text":"總統特赦權不會影響既有的司法判決"},{"start":12960.148,"end":12981.067,"text":"那過去30年有哪些人被特赦我想今天大家已經談了很多了那根據赦免法的第三條有兩個情況一個是免除期刑一個是罪行之宣告並為無效那我想請教一下這幾個案子往下看這一個韓運平將軍被特赦的理由犯罪事實有沒有被推翻有沒有請問社長"},{"start":12985.848,"end":13011.943,"text":"在他特赦的當中有把他的犯罪事實推翻嗎?沒有他不法且有責的部分有沒有把他推翻?沒有但是總統府說為落實罪行相當之憲法原則顧念國軍將士服務軍旅之貢獻應以服應國民正當法律情感今天我們在談的國民的法律情感秘書長你覺得認同這樣的一段文字描述嗎?"},{"start":13015.105,"end":13029.874,"text":"這個總統府這樣描述我們真重好很好來但是另外一個案子就不太一樣了蘇炳坤案他的唯一證據是被刑求後的自白請問在這個案件當中犯罪事實有沒有被再拿出來確認請問次長你覺得呢"},{"start":13035.469,"end":13057.205,"text":"這個本案他是認為是個冤獄案嘛他也是確定判決之後罪行宣告無效啦是 罪行宣告無效跟前面的韓將軍一樣 罪行宣告無效但是沒有變更之前的判決好 但是總統府說人權保障再審好 這是人權保障但是再審法官說承認本案是冤案秘書長你認同嗎 再審法官自己這樣講"},{"start":13059.464,"end":13088.196,"text":"總統府的沒有這是我說再審法官這是我列出來的我從新聞當中發現再審法官他承認本案是冤案為什麼再審法官會這樣講我們推敲一下因為該案唯一證據是被刑求後的自白但是已經沒有司法究竟的途徑所以透過總統府以人權保障為由以免罪行之宣告給予他是不是這樣子好來在法務部次長來"},{"start":13089.269,"end":13098.44,"text":"市長你有沒有聽過你們曾經承辦總統跟人權委員會做的叫做228或者說政治受難或者國家不法的"},{"start":13099.5,"end":13125.736,"text":"回復名譽的證書頒證有沒有這個印象就平復行政部法跟司法部法什麼叫做行政部法跟司法部法那司法部法當時因為涉及到相關的司法案件當時的司法可能有問題那回復名譽是不是回復名譽他有很多回復他名譽的方式譬如說剔除他的錢跟資料相關的OK那回復名譽總統是根據哪一個授權他可以頒一個回復名譽證書"},{"start":13128.903,"end":13131.485,"text":"那請問一下過去這幾個特赦案有沒有做類似的回復名譽的宣告?"},{"start":13147.101,"end":13150.243,"text":"法務部書面報告大赦特赦軍屬政治措施軍非否定原判確定判決所確認之犯罪行為"},{"start":13170.391,"end":13195.987,"text":"此與今在審非常上述改判無罪,性質上有種不同請問秘書長,你認同法務部書面報告這些內容嗎?這我們都尊重你都是尊重,好啦,我也是尊重啦,既然你是尊重的話,來我們往下看所以目前扁案細數中和判決確定的有幾個案,我們看到了大概如圖所說啦請問一下,那麼秘書長,可以對停審中的案件進行特赦嗎?"},{"start":13201.878,"end":13225.41,"text":"這個 這個我們其實是尊重總統如何來 次長你認為呢因為今天從頭到尾我們秘書長都尊重我也尊重他特赦案件本部的立場是認為只限於確定案件是的為確定案件沒有 不是設成法律那請問一下秘書長今天有委員黃國昌總召問說目前停審中的案件你說要回去調查一下山中案目前是不是停審中馬前總統的山中案是不是停審中"},{"start":13227.932,"end":13239.569,"text":"停審是不是一種裁定目前裁定停審案件應該不會只有扁案一案吧你告訴我是不是不只一案裁定停審這種案件不只一案吧"},{"start":13241.485,"end":13262.23,"text":"應該這個有這個規定應該其他被告也有可能所以你可以我可以推論說很多案嗎是不是這樣子聽長你點頭你說一下是不是不只一樣很多案因為裁定停審案很多還是停審應該不是只有這四案好那請問馬前總統的三宗案是裁定停審還是實質停審這個部分我們要再去查一下我告訴你他是在實質停審他還沒有裁定停審"},{"start":13263.3,"end":13284.982,"text":"所以這些大家都誤以為說目前只有扁案呢是有幾個案停審然後我們這個特赦呢會對於停審案子產生效力沒有嘛對不對缺點釐清往下看好請問今天爭議的焦點特赦後的犯罪所得應與沒收赦免法第3條只有免罪刑喔請問罪行宣告無效有沒有影響到沒收的程序請問法務部"},{"start":13286.26,"end":13309.238,"text":"沒有 沒收它不是一個刑它不是一個刑嘛 它只是對不法所得的一個財產秩序的回復嘛 是不是這樣子 它不是刑嘛秘書長你同意嗎 沒收不是一個刑 它也無法透過特赦來把免除 對不對所以有不法所得人需要執行沒收的程序嘛 是不是這樣子 社長是不是這樣"},{"start":13310.297,"end":13330.479,"text":"很明確嘛好所以呢往下看結論啦齁沒收並非刑罰免刑後仍應執行沒收是不是這樣子刑罰是對人的處分沒收是剝奪財產它並不是一種刑罰你們的意見是這樣嗎它不是一種刑罰而是一種回復財產的秩序讓於犯罪人"},{"start":13330.959,"end":13359.791,"text":"他因為不法的所得造成產生秩序回復到應有的狀態他不是一個處罰而是一個處分好來所以我們今天來看一下所以今天來看拉法業案有沒有成功作為不法所得有嗎花了多久的時間非常多年非常多年所以拉法業案我們看到的情況是要執行沒收並沒有完成他有沒有時效的限制"},{"start":13361.741,"end":13370.968,"text":"默說按照這個司法規定他是有有一些是有實效的規定的好那所以目前你們要有機會跟社會上說貶案所涉及到的有"},{"start":13372.083,"end":13400.67,"text":"還在沒收執行當中還無法沒收的實效如何?公務員報告現在本案這個個案已經確定了我們沒收的部分都已經執行完畢該沒收的都沒收了而這些該沒收的假設有赦免的話也不受赦免的影響好最後我們來看一下這是南韓總統的特赦案這是其他國家的例子南韓的法務部表示政府才會以人道考量並期待以此促成南韓朝野理性和解政治為出發點"},{"start":13402.031,"end":13416.989,"text":"因此特赦的原本應該一路關到2039年的票警會好 最後我的結論今天有這個機會我要再跟大家說一下今天赦免權是司法救濟外的政治途徑市長你同意嗎"},{"start":13419.64,"end":13419.74,"text":"總統職權讓爭議回歸歷史評價"},{"start":13436.314,"end":13456.962,"text":"正義各有所持但是今天我們讓歷史翻頁當歷史翻頁之後讓總統行使他的特權用特赦的方式用赦免的方式對不起用赦免權進行特赦的方式讓他既不影響既有的司法判決也不會影響到既定判定的沒收的一個執行"},{"start":13457.822,"end":13472.333,"text":"那我們就讓他回歸到讓以後的人來進行這樣的歷史評價我認為這就是我們今天討論大家的關心扁案總統是否行使赦免權的主要意義謝謝兩位謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝那現在我們請吳思耀委員發言謝謝謝謝主席有請次長跟秘書長請次長秘書長"},{"start":13489.808,"end":13517,"text":"委員好委員好次長好請問您擔任法務相關工作多久了法務嗎對我擔任檢察官29年司法人員29年那在國會的工作呢就是來備詢的我擔任過行政職大概我現在算一下7、8年吧所以加起來有30多年的經驗那秘書長您呢我服務40年那來國會這樣執行是一年"},{"start":13519.471,"end":13540.309,"text":"OK我想請您發揮您的法律專業我在新聞媒體上忽然看到這也很不好意思就是我們坐在台上的主席國民黨的委員吳宗憲委員在國民黨的特定委員的司法案件上在國民黨內部的討論裡頭清楚地說"},{"start":13543.852,"end":13570.652,"text":"許曉新涉及被外交部告發妨礙國家秘密的泄密罪吳委員說由於此案是非告訴乃論外交部沒有辦法撤告不該做等檢察官不起訴國民黨應當轉手圍攻進而由其他藍委來逼提告的外交部具狀給檢察官表達外交部希望此案不起訴把壓力再拋回外交部"},{"start":13571.272,"end":13595.885,"text":"也就是有具有法律專業的吳釗偉號召國民黨的立委們來逼迫外交部具狀給檢方爭取不起訴你們都是在司法的領域不管擔任司法人員或者是在國會擔任行政人員這麼多年你們有看過這樣子公然用政治力干預司法的這種作為嗎兩位有沒有"},{"start":13602.652,"end":13619.278,"text":"兩位逼迫外交部具狀給檢方來爭取不起訴這就是逼迫外交部來撤回也就是希望外交部這件事情來來喬一喬不要告了啦你們有看過這種案子嗎"},{"start":13620.589,"end":13625.37,"text":"市長,因為檢察官的獨立自主辦案是司法部要捍衛的嗎?你有看過這樣子的嗎?"},{"start":13640.383,"end":13666.523,"text":"因為這幾條是個案的事實我不算清楚所以不便回答好 不便評論我也不為難你們我們在司法及法制委員會這個會期立下了很多的惡例我看到有不同的委員不斷地針對個案來提出他的立場好 個案不是不能有立場但是我們在過去的討論頂多會看到對於個案來衍生出通案的制度的檢視但是如果對於一個個案來用具體的"},{"start":13669.833,"end":13685.805,"text":"立委的質詢權．立委的國會的權限．來要求．來逼迫．已經提告的政府部門．對於個別立委的所涉案的事情．用施壓的方式．要求逼迫外交部．"},{"start":13686.305,"end":13686.365,"text":"好 下一頁"},{"start":13705.427,"end":13724.818,"text":"回到今天特赦的主題我想說的是其實這是一個假設性的議題因為畢竟我早上聆聽你們的回答市長都沒有收到任何來自於府方的這種指示嘛所以針對測試上是一個假設性的議題而且如果要進行特赦也不知道特赦的對象是誰嘛"},{"start":13725.478,"end":13731.824,"text":"這也是我這幾天我身為黨編我在回應媒體社會各界我也是同樣的立場我確實沒有任何的資訊而特赦就是總統的職權國會應當予以尊重但是今天張偉排這個案我覺得很好我們可以就制度性來檢視台灣的特赦相關從法制面到實行面下一頁"},{"start":13749.72,"end":13766.159,"text":"憲法第40條的授權以及赦免法第三條、第五之一條還有第六條的規範特赦是憲法所賦予總統的專屬職權而且特赦他現罪行確定的案件他受罪行宣告人違憲"},{"start":13767.941,"end":13795.712,"text":"而且他免除刑之執行．非免除其罪特赦．非平反判決．效果也不溯及既往沒收之犯罪所得．並非是特赦的範圍我這樣釐清跟理解制度是不是都正確?次長沒有錯但是特赦範圍另外有一個除了免之執行之外還有罪行也可以免除情節特殊的話是那有其外的例外的規範好下一頁"},{"start":13797.506,"end":13819.785,"text":"我們來看看臺灣歷年的特赦的案例四任總統皆行使過特赦之權蔣介石總統1961、1963、1965三次包括政治犯、包括過失致死罪李登輝總統在1961年特赦了呂秀蓮、許信良等27位政治犯都是美麗島事件罪行無效"},{"start":13821.086,"end":13836.273,"text":"陳說扁總統任內2000年特赦了三個案例那有22人包括公允的領袖包括這個強盜殺人罪2007年陳說扁總統也特赦了百米焦蛋客養乳門這是阿扁總統任內兩次"},{"start":13839.079,"end":13856.495,"text":"蔡英文總統也是兩度一個是2021年特赦了王光祿就是原住民族的持槍狩獵的這個個案2022年蔡英文總統在行使特赦是韓玉萍跟張玉森兩位軍隊加菜精和消餐費的事件我做出這樣的整理代表"},{"start":13857.918,"end":13881.863,"text":"在不同的歷任總統的任內也不關乎任何政黨這就是總統的職權臺灣有行使特赦的經驗只要他依法有據對不對下一頁我們來看看國際的體制我們今天就來論體制我覺得這是一個難得的機會我們可以跟在線上關心的公民一起來看看特赦在各國的制度是如何"},{"start":13882.683,"end":13902.216,"text":"不管是在總統制或是君主憲政的體制下都擁有特赦權在美國總統制下呢總統可依聯邦憲法第二條第二款授予因為總統是聯邦體制所以總統可以對於聯邦罪犯來行使他的赦免或是減刑的裁量權"},{"start":13903.177,"end":13919.114,"text":"但是原則上總統他享有的對象他的發動特赦與否的高度自主權是完全不受國會或是司法體系法院的干擾因為他是聯邦體制所以在美國的州"},{"start":13919.975,"end":13928.861,"text":"州長也會有州的特赦權所以我整理出來在美國的特赦的案例拜登總統2021到2024特赦了24人川普總統2017到2021特赦了144人歐巴馬8年任內特赦了212人小布希8年任內特赦了189人科林頓從1993到2001特赦了396人"},{"start":13950.155,"end":13963.024,"text":"所以總統在總統制的美國制裡頭總統高度自主的特赦權國會或法院都沒有置會的餘地他特赦了都是上百人之多我的整理應該無誤嘛下一頁"},{"start":13965.966,"end":13985.627,"text":"韓國一樣總統制的韓國韓國我們最熟悉他的特赦體制他同樣是憲法的副權然後呢韓國權斗患盧泰瑜金勇三次子金賢哲李明博跟這個蒲景慧他們所犯的相關的不管是軍事叛亂收受賄賂貪污農用公款泄密等等"},{"start":13986.428,"end":13989.61,"text":"也都在1997、1999、2022、2021獲得特赦這是韓國的經驗依據韓國的憲法總統的職權一樣他要面對的是民意的評判但是在制度上"},{"start":14001.975,"end":14009.52,"text":"沒有人可以去挑戰他只能夠尊重總統職權的行使這是韓國的經驗下一頁我們來看君主立憲的國家英國英國的黃江赦免權是君主授予赦免但是實質上是首相或內閣來建議行使所以2019年的一個很重要的案例我在這裡就不贅述了一個當年因為磨砂消防員而判無期徒刑的這個Steven"},{"start":14031.914,"end":14048.885,"text":"他在2019年他協助了倫敦恐怖攻擊事件的這個成功的阻卻了恐攻而獲得女王的特赦君主立憲的國家同樣的透過首相或內閣的建議行使皇家赦免權是得以"},{"start":14049.745,"end":14059.432,"text":"上路而且被尊重下一頁我分享最後一個也是我們最鄰近的日本同樣是君主立憲體制日本的恩赦制度是內閣的許可權由內閣決定天皇來認證"},{"start":14064.736,"end":14087.236,"text":"所以2019年在他們日本的德仁天皇即位在他重要的大典的時候就進行了政令的恩赦然後呢八成是違反道路交通法令430人獲特赦是違反公職選舉法總共有55萬人在2019年日本德仁天皇即位的時候被獲得這個恩赦"},{"start":14090.319,"end":14106.471,"text":"所以在日本也有非常多的施行經驗55萬人獲得特赦我為什麼分享這麼多我希望社會回到制度面來看待體制在台灣中華民國憲法的規範之下特赦就是總統的職權國會只能尊重"},{"start":14110.094,"end":14132.598,"text":"行政部門如果總統有對於要求法務部來研議你們就要來協力如果總統直接行使連你們也不需要有相關的行政作為跟配合所以特赦是憲法賦予總統的專屬職權而停審的案件不是行使特赦的範圍如果大家要聚焦在貶案只能夠針對他偵辦終結的定驗的案例"},{"start":14137.779,"end":14151.53,"text":"而且具體個案未沒收的犯罪所得他不會受特赦效力的影響也就是社會討論比較多的不法所得會不會因為特赦而一併的都赦免他返交國庫呢?並不會"},{"start":14153.852,"end":14171.518,"text":"所以我們就制度來論制度我一直說因為特赦目前沒有發生總統沒有宣誓法務部也沒有接受到任何行政配合的指示目前只是一個假設性的議題對於是不是行使特赦可能特赦的對象是誰我們都不知道"},{"start":14172.438,"end":14195.198,"text":"所以我希望從制度面讓大家再清楚的看到特赦在不同的憲政體制的國家它都是至高無上的國家元首所擁有的權利然後依法行事國會沒有智慧的餘地但是總統必須顧及社會民意的觀感"},{"start":14195.859,"end":14196.059,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝大家"},{"start":14220.455,"end":14226.856,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員那因為我這邊簡單的說明一下就因為在座很多法官、檢察官嘛"},{"start":14227.523,"end":14253.349,"text":"那剛 委員剛有 委員可能要提醒一件事啦有東西弄錯齁 出去會被人家笑齁第一個就是說 它媒體的內容有時候會引申我們的說辭啦 這個我都可以理解啦它媒體報導跟我們說有時候都有一個差距阿第二個齁 因為在座很多法官、檢察官他們很清楚 司法實務上面告訴哪一份之罪 被告或被告的辯護人建議怎麼跟告訴人"},{"start":14254.993,"end":14275.244,"text":"談判．要求告書人徹告或非告書者論之罪．請告書人具狀跟檢察官請求不予追究這個是司法事務的常態這個不是什麼罕見的事情第三外交部不是司法機關你去對外交部的任何作為不會發生政治力干預司法我覺得五權憲法要念一下"},{"start":14276.405,"end":14278.365,"text":"主席好 有請秘書長還有次長委員好次長還有秘書長好"},{"start":14307.931,"end":14324.123,"text":"剛剛前面幾個委員都已經提到了在我們歷任總統的特赦案件大概有八件那在蔡總統任內到目前為止是有兩件的這個特赦案那麼這兩件特赦案呢分別是在一個這兩件特赦案一個是在二零"},{"start":14333.623,"end":14352.234,"text":"21年針對原住民獵人王光祿的獵捕野生動物案另外一個則是2022年針對兩位將官因為微博的加菜金可能會違反違法的餐費核銷案"},{"start":14353.493,"end":14376.897,"text":"那麼我們再看看前面幾任總統他們特赦的案件請問在這8個案子當中有哪一個是針對嚴重貪污、舞弊、收賄的案子來進行特赦的雖然我們現在看到的是報載的新聞那麼蔡總統可能在他卸任之前會針對陳水扁這個進行特赦那在"},{"start":14383.339,"end":14400.899,"text":"剛剛的其他委員的這個詢問當中也知道法務部是說到現在為止也沒有收到什麼指示我想請教就是如果按照剛剛次長的說法是不是合法證明是非常快速的可能一個小時之內就可以做好"},{"start":14403.566,"end":14428.424,"text":"我們要接受行政院指示或總統府指示我們要給予這個證明它這個證明其實就是一個書面而已它製作的時間不會太長所以就是說可以非常迅速的也許短短的幾分鐘反正它就已經是一個定型化的一個表格對它是一個書面沒錯但是它有一個送達的問題"},{"start":14429.204,"end":14441.625,"text":"我們必須要送達給受赦免人因為赦免人法上規定所以另外一個送達之間的問題那也就是說最快最慢時間也是24小時之內就可以完畢這樣子一個作業流程"},{"start":14444.025,"end":14462.231,"text":"在這麼樣子的這個就是按照剛剛的說法其實你們的作業是絕對來得及的就算是蔡總統她在5月19號才告訴你們說請你們要研議要做這個特赦你們這是在非常短的時間都可以做得到的"},{"start":14462.871,"end":14491.75,"text":"那我接下來我想請教一下這也是今天大家在討論到有關於赦免法第3條的這個問題如果說蔡總統會針對陳水扁進行赦免的話那可能會是什麼樣的一個狀態我比較擔心的是說如果說是蔡總統這個依據赦免法第3條的有特殊的情形將罪行都赦免那麼這是不是代表就是陳水扁之後若要出來參選還是有這個可能性的"},{"start":14494.044,"end":14507.996,"text":"跟委員報告：如果罪行都赦免的話那基本上他就他的包括他的此樓公權也會被赦免但是可不可以參選你要看我們的這個我們的這個那個現行的法規"},{"start":14509.376,"end":14529.703,"text":"對,公正人權罷免法規定它有一些26條它有一些例外的規定不能夠參選但是現在它已經沒有任何的罪行了所以就法律的規定上面來講它是極有可能會參選的不無這個可能性所以這也是在講到就是如果說蔡總統她今天行使這個赦免權的話"},{"start":14531.263,"end":14531.943,"text":"我接下來想要再談的就是"},{"start":14549.989,"end":14566.296,"text":"大家也很關心如果說是特赦是依照社民法第三條的前段的前句的規定就是直免除期刑那麼接下來這個四個案子停審中的四個案子要是不是要回復執行的這個問題剛剛秘書長"},{"start":14571.67,"end":14583.579,"text":"一直在談到有關於這是屬於4個案子4個法官是指他審判核心的問題我想請教秘書長所謂的審判核心沒有界限嗎?法官獨立審判的這個權利難道這個權利沒有節制嗎?沒有界限嗎?這個原則上是這個是屬於審判核心那基於審判獨立由個案成審法官"},{"start":14601.933,"end":14622.747,"text":"您剛說了審判核心、審判獨立那我想請教一下你們司法院自己都有頒布各級法院的辦案期限的實施要點那你們這樣做的這個限期法院法官的辦案的這樣的期限要點難道沒有違憲嗎?這沒有侵害到法官的審判獨立嗎?審判核心嗎?"},{"start":14626.003,"end":14639.333,"text":"那個是就一般通常的情形啦那陳雪扁的案子有什麼例外的情形嗎這個就回復到就是個案他的個案到底跟別的案子有什麼不同因為"},{"start":14640.441,"end":14641.641,"text":"說實在話 赦免這件事情屬於總統的憲法上的權利"},{"start":14667.235,"end":14668.416,"text":"陳水扁從2015年保外就醫至今已經展現了38次"},{"start":14693.851,"end":14715.18,"text":"他的保外就業時間長達9年在這一段牢獄外的生活他可以說是多彩多姿啊他既幫助很多的候選人去參台去站台拉票主持電台節目又開直播演講幫他的兒子陳志中市議員的競選肇事"},{"start":14716.42,"end":14717.26,"text":"我必須說"},{"start":14743.499,"end":14764.712,"text":"法務部、矯正署、臺中監獄．你們放任受刑人陳水扁在外面逍遙法外．利用保外就醫的名義．在外面任意地破壞我們司法的程序．你們的作為．不客氣地講是台灣司法之恥"},{"start":14766.345,"end":14781.813,"text":"你們還能堅持司法是社會正義的最後一道防線嗎在你們的眼中還有法律之前人人平等嗎我真的認為現在的司法人員是怎麼樣你們的腦中裡面是只有權貴司法嗎不比較還不覺得說陳水扁的這個行徑有多麼的惡劣你們知道在2020年"},{"start":14794.49,"end":14814.839,"text":"這個所公布的兩公約執行情形第三次的國家報告裡面顯示保外就醫的期間死亡的比例是高達25%也就是有四位保外就醫的這個受刑人有一位可能就會死亡那麼回到監獄的人數大概差不多15%左右"},{"start":14817.342,"end":14831.737,"text":"監察院在2020年的時候其實也曾經做過一個糾正報告也提出這個矯正署也糾正矯正署也就是現在的監獄他啟動保外醫治的材料標準及空間過於籠統模糊"},{"start":14833.9,"end":14851.842,"text":"常常我們看到非常多的新聞報導有講這個受刑人在獄中都已經快要這個生命非常嚴重了然後才送到醫院去醫治在很短大概一兩月的時間可能就會往生"},{"start":14853.775,"end":14880.865,"text":"相形之下陳水扁今天這樣的行為為什麼我們社會大眾沒有辦法看下去看得下去沒有辦法接受就是他已經太偏離常態了本席在就任立法委員的我發的第一份公文就是給台中監獄請他們要提出去探訪陳水扁的種種的每一次每三個月一次的訪視報告"},{"start":14883.123,"end":14891.951,"text":"有做到嗎提不出來連要求最基本的書面報告也沒有打個電話去問說陳水扁你好不好種種的行為這個預發和這個矯正署法務部你們對這件事情實在是怠惰你們已經真的把這個司法的這個"},{"start":14908.209,"end":14932.657,"text":"這個公信力啊司法的這個法律正當程序才在腳底下這是讓人民無法接受的我必須講法院是審判機關司法機關是司法行政機關是一個執法機關不要忘記你們的所作所為代表的都是司法正義法官"},{"start":14936.277,"end":14960.953,"text":"到目前為止那四位法官到目前為止為什麼長期的停審而臺中監獄呢也可以長期的放任陳水扁一直在外保外就醫對大多數的民眾而言是真的早就看不下去了我實在不知道就是你們為什麼這麼樣的放任陳水扁"},{"start":14962.199,"end":14982.935,"text":"我們口口聲聲的希望能夠維持司法獨立維持司法正義可是你們所作所為都是在侵害司法這些年來其實台灣民眾已經對司法的信任度大幅的降低那司法的公信力早已破產"},{"start":14984.582,"end":15010.673,"text":"不客氣的說你們這些執法機關、審判機關難辭其咎我非常期待你們能夠深刻檢討當然接下來還要看是不是真的蔡總統會在他卸任之前特赦陳水扁可是如果他是特赦適指免刑"},{"start":15011.943,"end":15026.898,"text":"的情況之下那4個那接下來4個案子一定要儘速啟動審判否則根本無法向民眾交代好謝謝好謝謝那現在我們請蔡易與委員發言"},{"start":15040.905,"end":15041.225,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15051.982,"end":15080.1,"text":"市長關於特赦這本來就是屬於總統的以總統的權利所以總統來行使特赦依赦免法第三條當然他有不同的法律效果因為赦免法第三條也寫得比較含糊他好像分為兩部分一部分就是說可以赦免其刑那如果是在例外狀況的話可以直接讓刑的讓他整個宣告無效"},{"start":15080.96,"end":15099.396,"text":"所以這個宣告無效是不是代表就是說罪跟刑同時都設這個就很大的法律解釋空間但是我想當初立法在創造這樣的空間的時候應該就是要賦予總統有這樣的高度在面對不同的案件的時候他要行使他的"},{"start":15099.996,"end":15129.396,"text":"這一個豁免的特赦或者是大赦的權利這個權利要大到哪邊那次長我這樣的我這樣的一個對法的認知你怎麼看呢基本上是贊同委員的意見我們憲法的確規定大赦特赦檢訊復權是總統的特別權限另外按照赦免法第3條的規定他赦免的有兩種可能第一個是免除刑之執行第二個是罪行無效"},{"start":15129.876,"end":15130.176,"text":"免除刑執行"},{"start":15152.641,"end":15175.689,"text":"除刑不除罪就是說他的判決當時候這個定讞的判決仍然是存在的只是他的刑就因為特赦後免除刑的執行那這個免除執行他涉及到了沒收的所謂不法所得的沒收那次長這樣怎麼去認定"},{"start":15176.909,"end":15206.073,"text":"他這個當時候判的這個不法所得你們要怎麼認定確定的判決當然是看判決書上面的主文上所載的這個沒收的範圍但是無論是哪一種沒收哪一種特色形態刑制免除也好或者罪行都無效也好他所免除的都是罪或刑但是我們沒收他本身不是罪也不是刑對他過去有憲法法庭有說嘛他不是刑法的一部分嘛沒收又是另外他是一個"},{"start":15206.733,"end":15225.43,"text":"另外的一個概念他是一個獨立的一個處分對獨立的處分他不是刑罰的一部分也不是類刑罰也不是類型所以我現在就有一點疑惑這個疑惑就是說未來在法律適用上也許還很多人會挑戰這一點就是說好我們現在對陳總統去沒收的有針對他已扣押的"},{"start":15226.33,"end":15244.41,"text":"這個已扣押的有可能是在地檢署扣押那好像也有部分是在瑞士扣押在瑞士的那這部分未來是不是要把它再移回來那這部分如果是正沒收的那會不會再擴及到陳總統個人其他的財產"},{"start":15246.411,"end":15273.565,"text":"會不會呢?跟我們報告他當然看我們現在已經確定的部分已經執行完畢了那委員提的大概是還沒有確定那一部分才有這個問題因為已經確定的部分我們都已經沒收的部分都執行完畢了都執行完畢了對所以沒有擴充的問題了對阿既然還沒有確定也就是那是未來的問題阿對那是未來另外的案件對另外的案件他還沒確定我們以確定的案件的該執行沒收的就執行完畢了就執行完畢了對所以也不會有大家那麼那麼"},{"start":15276.026,"end":15296.486,"text":"好像有些人在質疑說阿你是不是這一些以執行的會被他拿回去試案不會以執行完畢就是執行完畢了這個確定的部分幾乎執行完畢了99%執行完畢了留下一點點而已那是執行技巧的問題那執行技巧的問題不是原則上是執行完畢了好那所以回到我說的阿會不會又擴及到陳前總統他個人的財產"},{"start":15299.881,"end":15325.479,"text":"我們除了這個已經執行完畢的財產之外還當時特徵組還有扣押其他的財產對有扣押的嘛那是扣押的其他的那我現在是指說會不會又扣及到沒有扣押的應該不會吧不至於的扣押他有有適用法上的規定在什麼狀態下可以扣押啦要不得為證據之物可為沒收之物才可以扣押並不是說說要扣押就要扣押對就可為沒收嘛所以這應該做很清楚的法律的定義啦"},{"start":15326.34,"end":15341.355,"text":"所以我想因為這件事也要沒發生啦我們都社會會去討論啦那我只要強調就是說因為總統有這樣的高度而且陳總統的案件在當時我知道法務部的很多你們的一些前輩啦這個特徵組類在辦陳總統的時候程序上是不夠正義的"},{"start":15348.081,"end":15369.481,"text":"在審判的過程,司法院會說是審判核心,但是勒,國務紀要費卻跟特別費是截然不同,一個有大水庫理論,一個就是把他完全都是要把他,把他認定都是全部是不法所得,截然不同,所以才會造成一個案件,到至今仍然是藍綠的這樣的一個分際,大家都各詐騙各說各話,我覺得"},{"start":15371.903,"end":15394.503,"text":"這樣因為判決同樣的狀況會產生兩種判決就會讓社會產生爭議這是陳總統案件至今仍然沒辦法解決反而沒辦法解決社會建議所以總統要行使他的高度用特赦來解決這樣的爭議這個是我的一個主張那我最後再用一個短短的時間我要跟法務部呼籲現在中國有一種叫做上頭電子煙"},{"start":15397.445,"end":15416.725,"text":"這個上頭的電子煙,它是一種麻醉藥物叫做伊托米子,俗稱上頭,我不知道為什麼叫上頭,因為中國的命名都很奇怪,它一直被宣傳說這個麻醉藥品可以合法的取代大麻"},{"start":15418.584,"end":15443.755,"text":"合法取代大麻 我想法務部正視這件事情現在很多年輕人 他們都說是抽大麻違法 那我來抽這個我用電子菸來抽這樣的一個麻醉藥品叫做依托米子那用這樣抽的這個依托米子他一樣會造成迷幻而且會有成癮性所以我覺得法務部要去正視這樣的一個毒品在市面上流通而且很多年輕人"},{"start":15444.695,"end":15452.86,"text":"會因為電子煙去好奇去接觸然後去使用這樣的東西我覺得法務部要正視這個事好不好好謝謝謝謝那下一位我們請林楚英委員"},{"start":15460.458,"end":15488.121,"text":"林楚英委員林楚英委員蘇巧慧委員蘇巧慧委員蘇巧慧委員好那接下來我們麻煩那個翁曉琳委員代理主席謝謝好接下來請吳委員質詢"},{"start":15492.09,"end":15494.352,"text":"那我們麻煩黃次長跟秘書長兩位午安這最前面我還是先底下因為剛剛那個吳校委員他有提到說這個案的部分就是講那個事情我想說"},{"start":15521.803,"end":15550.901,"text":"我在這邊還是幫這些委員上一下法律課好了我想這其實有一點這樣就是說欲加之罪這民進黨從未持窮其實當天的狀況是這樣就是說我們有委員在討論說是不是對於外交部提告許曉欣的案子要叫外交部撤告"},{"start":15551.69,"end":15575.398,"text":"那我就是回說因為這個是屬於非告訴哪一論之罪只有告訴哪一論可以撤告非告訴哪一論之罪的處理方式就是被告請告訴人或告發人那邊具狀給檢察官不予追究這不是就一般司法實務的處理模式嗎我想在座很多法官、檢察官以前也是這樣處理所以我不瞭解"},{"start":15577.099,"end":15594.371,"text":"說這個跟干預司法個案有什麼關係我覺得他們把這個法律諮詢啊把他講成是這個司法干涉我覺得這個不是笨就是壞那這是我對王定宇委員還有吳思耀委員的就本件事情評論的見解是這樣"},{"start":15597.773,"end":15618.63,"text":"更何況這個外交部在案件中是屬於當事人你叫請當事人去具狀表明不追究這跟政治力介入司法有什麼關係其實我也是聽不懂好吧那就回到我剛剛那個結論就是我覺得不是笨就是壞啦我想他們應該也不會不懂這個道理"},{"start":15622.016,"end":15641.87,"text":"因為他們剛委員有請教兩位這個問題那我就跟兩位說明一下狀況是這樣這是一個很常見的司法實務的處理模式我今天因為我們的主題還是回歸到有關特赦的這個部分那我想請教一下"},{"start":15645.885,"end":15671.664,"text":"剛剛你們也有回覆過其他委員了啦就是目前蔡部長或是將來要接任的政部長目前都沒有接到府方的指示對吧都還沒有嘛那我先跟各位請教一下就沒收的部分假設今天真的有特赦的話對沒收的部分會不會有影響"},{"start":15674.108,"end":15699.416,"text":"公文報告,因為沒收部分他不是行也不是從,不是主行也不是從刑嘛,那我們特赦的範圍當然不會基於這一個非刑的,不會基於非刑的部分,所以他不會受到影響。好,那我們就提一個,好,因為我想說這是人民很關心的部分,所以我想說透過這法務部這邊跟大家說明一下,因為這個將來執行的話是法務部那邊要執行嘛,"},{"start":15700.39,"end":15706.132,"text":"好所以呢我們看一下111年憲判制第18號其實他已經講得非常清楚了"},{"start":15707.321,"end":15730.742,"text":"沒收心智實質上是不真正溯及既往也就是說他並不會說不能沒收所以這邊要跟各位就跟那個民眾我們說明一下即使今天總統對陳水扁以前的案子進行特赦也不會影響到犯罪所得沒收請問一下這個結論對嗎?沒有錯好 謝謝"},{"start":15734.525,"end":15762.515,"text":"那尤其是其實在判制第18號現判制第18號也有講到其實這個不法的所得其實沒有一個信賴保護的問題所以這個不會因為被特赦而去沒收那我再請教一下目前你們有沒有研究一下就是說社會上面對於這個到底要不要特赦這個大家的共識是什麼"},{"start":15764.771,"end":15778.97,"text":"各位報告那特赦他是總統特有的職權嘛所以這邊如果總統沒有發布的話沒有發動的話我們也沒有辦法我們要尊重總統的職權我們不可能主動的去做民意的調查你們有沒有先預作準備因為既然有這個分審出來"},{"start":15779.551,"end":15806.185,"text":"我剛剛答詢的時候其實有提到就是說法務部就相關的任何的法律上的爭議我們幕僚座位上一定都會收集相關的意見或做法律上的爭點的整理包含今天特赦這個議題因為社會矚目那之前也有媒體揭露所以法務部他事實上有做相關的法制的整理是沒有錯好好謝謝不好意思我這兩天那個喉嚨不太人不太舒服好那"},{"start":15807.825,"end":15822.808,"text":"那這個部分可能也是要麻煩你們我不知道說府方會不會去請問你們這個相關的建議就依照以前以前就是曾經有過的特赦經驗那個府方會不會去詢問法務部請法務部提供相關的見解"},{"start":15824.028,"end":15848.086,"text":"或是建議按照社民法第6條規定總統府的確是可以另轉本部做相關的研議這的確是可以那我這邊我可能跟各位說明一個東西其實我自己對於陳水扁要不要特赦我覺得當然我們是尊重總統的想法但是我對於目前的制度我比較有一點意見就是說"},{"start":15849.918,"end":15879.248,"text":"因為陳水扁他現在是保外就醫嘛那包括剛剛也有那個委員羅志強委員有提到高雄監獄受刑人當初在搶槍自殺前他們其實提出來是說為什麼陳水扁可以保外就醫但是監所內有比他嚴重非常多的卻沒有辦法保外就醫其實這個在司法面前應該人人平等啊那這公平性到底在哪裡我想法務部就這部分能不能說明一下"},{"start":15881.124,"end":15883.025,"text":"法務部是受這些醫療報告拘束還是"},{"start":15908.215,"end":15935.16,"text":"根文報告他其實是臺中監獄然後就交由這個這個矯正署來做決定的其實也不是到法務部是好沒關係那矯正署是法務部底下的單位嗎那我請教一下醫療報告是居宿矯正署還是得參考當然是參考的這個事實認定的一個基準之一那如果是參考的話其實現在有個問題就是說如果是參考那"},{"start":15936.089,"end":15958.322,"text":"因為他現在客觀的狀況有時候民眾沒有辦法沒有辦法覺得滿意嘛因為他可以上政論節目可以上台演講可以開直播然後可以走來走去這個讓人民覺得他是不是跟我們想像中病情嚴重到要保外就醫這個還是有一個差距嘛"},{"start":15958.991,"end":15970.215,"text":"那當我們我提就是我剛所以我剛先請教的前提是這些醫生的醫療評估是拘束那個預證預證處還是"},{"start":15973.786,"end":15995.514,"text":"只是得參考如果是得參考的話那今天認定的責任就在就在貴部了當然就是按照我們相關的規定他要提出醫療證明他是這個申請展言的要件之一嘛他這個要件當然他自己判斷準否當然是要由全責機關做決定他不會他只是要件之一而不是拘束"},{"start":15996.254,"end":15996.795,"text":"司法院秘書長、法務部長"},{"start":16018.476,"end":16032.913,"text":"他是前總統他的保衛就醫的標準跟一般人就不一樣我想不是一般人民不能接受我們自己司法官出售我們也不能接受所以有人說要不要給陳水扁特赦我跟你們講與其讓他繼續傷害司法"},{"start":16034.835,"end":16054.654,"text":"那不如你總統你要特赦你自己去背政治責任所以說我甚至我會覺得是這樣但是我的論點還是覺得這個保外就醫就是讓人民沒辦法相信嘛那我自己看我也覺得有點莫名其妙這是我表達我個人的意見這也不是國民黨的意見那後面還有一個東西請教"},{"start":16056.687,"end":16082.043,"text":"因為之前我在質詢的時候我有問過部長一個問題3月26號的時候我對蔡部長有去提到死刑執行規則他在訂定上面好像有一點問題那我不知道因為當時部長是跟我承諾在326的時候跟我承諾說他要去修改這個死刑執行規則那我不知道這個部分他有沒有修改"},{"start":16083.917,"end":16103.53,"text":"各位報告那執行死刑規則的部分我們有做因應那個憲法訴訟法的修正之後我們有做一些文字的修正這個我們有公告了我們有預告我們有預告這個有預告進行預告程序不是是因為我當時在質詢326的時候在質詢的時候我剛剛說從死刑案件執行實施要點"},{"start":16104.631,"end":16130.239,"text":"到執行死刑規則的時候他有個但書沒有抄過來那當時部長跟我說他會把他這個部分他會修改因為這個是法務部就可以改的那我想請問因為一直到現在兩個月過去了我還是沒有看到法務部改我上網去看還是舊有的規定我說這個規則他有預告還沒有完成法規修改的程序大家進行預告程序他有修改"},{"start":16131.482,"end":16149.162,"text":"但是還沒有修改他進行預告程序所以這部分是已經修了嗎因為法規修正他有立法作業程序他現在已經有預告程序預告程序完之後我們要評估外界或民間的意見再決定如何的修正請教次長說你的意思是說"},{"start":16150.003,"end":16177.74,"text":"已經有著手在修了只是還沒有完成這個甚至我們也聽了一些民間的意見一些Face或反Face團體我們都把他找來對這個修正什麼意見後來我們決定一個版本之後我們就有預告預告完之後當然又會有不同的意見出現了那法務部要再重整所有的意見再決定怎麼修這個條文那謝謝長因為很多人都說啦就是司法權對於一個人下了死刑判決"},{"start":16178.641,"end":16203.953,"text":"但是法務部這邊呢他本來應該要執行他卻用規則裡面的一些一些東西去讓這個死刑執行一直延後一直延後那我是希望說不要讓外界認為說我們沒有刪除死刑但是我們就用行政權去實質廢死我希望說不要法務部的作為不要讓外界有這個誤解就是覺得說好像"},{"start":16205.066,"end":16230.362,"text":"法務部總是配合上面政治人物的想法要達到實質廢止所以我們條文也不敢刪除實行那我就給你搞個實質上不執行實行就好所以已經好多年沒有執行實行了嘛跟委員報告這部分事實上這個要點從民國94年都一直延續過來我們沒有做實質的修正後來因為建議行刑法修正之後我們跟著把它改成這個修正成為執行實行規則實質上內容是沒有動的"},{"start":16233.384,"end":16249.436,"text":"所以不是說法務部近年才把它增加一些障礙去不執行死刑這要點從90年代一直到現在次長這個部分這邊你可能你可能沒有去注意到3月26號我對部長的質詢再麻煩次長你回去看一下326我對部長的質詢"},{"start":16251.977,"end":16270.908,"text":"當場部長也是說我直接秀給他看兩個的比較那部長也覺得這有問題他說好他回去修改他是這樣跟我說的當天的錄影你們都還可以調出來看確實當時執行要點有一個但書沒有抄到那個執行實行規則去導致當事人他可以用"},{"start":16272.165,"end":16291.893,"text":"一直不停的申請大法官解釋而且同一個理由一直申請也沒事那所以當時我就跟部長說那你這個要不要把它改掉既然你已經現在都用執行死刑規則那你是不是要把它加進去部長當時跟我說好但是我現在看了兩個月還是沒有改這個部分但這個東西是法務部就可以處理的"},{"start":16293.684,"end":16320.202,"text":"不需要送到立法院刪讀所以這可能麻煩次長回去看一下了解委員這個問題意思我也充分了解是不是同意原因的問題讓死刑犯可以用同意原因不斷的來拖延執行死刑嗎對因為事實上我跟委員報告事實上我剛跟委員提的民間的我們做一些公民的意見的時候光這個議題我們也討論過民間也是有不同的意見也是有好沒關係那所以我要跟你們講的就是"},{"start":16321.284,"end":16336.542,"text":"執行要點實施要點已經很清楚的說同一原因他不會讓實行執行延後但是呢在執行實行規則的時候這個但書不見了沒有超過來那在我們以前念法律"},{"start":16337.903,"end":16355.991,"text":"舊法到新法如果有一個東西不見了我們都認為這個是造法者他是民事的就是這一個東西不要了所以在到新法的時候他不會移植過來所以當時我問部長就是那你們今天的意思是同一原因繼續就會一直玩嗎那部長也說好那他們回去會研擬要這個部分要修改"},{"start":16356.499,"end":16383.735,"text":"那我是我今天就要問這個地方因為現在兩個月了因為我看到法務部並沒有動作那再麻煩次長就這部分處理因為我可能我之後還是會繼續盯著這個部分好那這部分是109年那個監獄刑事法修正之後的確在同意原因那個單書沒有把它抄進來那當時有當時時空背景那現在委員提的但是會不會因為同意原因造成申請人不斷的來申請那後來我們有我剛才跟委員報告我們有不斷的尋求公民意識來解決這個問題"},{"start":16385.256,"end":16414.135,"text":"那委員剛提的意見我們回去會再做處理好 謝謝市長好 那就這樣好 謝謝各位 謝謝兩位我想因為今天有很多的委員都對於這個陳水扁保外就醫展延38次的這個核准許可都想要知道這個到底這個38次核准是怎麼核准法是不是可以請法務部提供這38次的每次的許可函然後以及他的相關的這個許可的理由給我們委員會"},{"start":16416.944,"end":16432.714,"text":"跟委員報告他那個形式上的理由當然可以但因為內容他涉及到特種個資就是他個人的診斷證明啦所以這部分如果涉及到特種個資的話我就沒有辦法診斷那形式上他的理由我們當然可以給貴委員會這沒有問題"},{"start":16433.855,"end":16440.158,"text":"因為這部分我剛剛有跟上就是詢問嘛如果醫生的報告是拘束預證署那我們當然沒話說是醫生要負責任可是他今天的報告來只是參考那今天法務部就要負責任那剛剛次長有說其實這個是參考"},{"start":16463.251,"end":16463.631,"text":"那下一位我們請紅夢凱委員發言"},{"start":16495.522,"end":16496.543,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請我們次長以及吳秘書長來次長"},{"start":16506.264,"end":16528.388,"text":"陳水扁 把外就醫38次呂彩虹縣彩虹縣彩成變紅彩彩虹縣彩成變紅龍越來越紅我們想請教一下當初有說陳水扁把外就醫有4個條件4步哪4步各位報告他詳細內容我記不起來不能參加政治活動不能參加政治活動"},{"start":16529.549,"end":16554.429,"text":"那還有一些不能參加媒體不能參加媒體對 類似另外兩個就不是很清楚記不記得不能上台那現在參加了多少次他的確是有參加 對他的確有參加對 但是 市長親口承認他的確有參加政治活動不是 他是不是歸屬於政治活動或對政治活動的你們對政治活動的定義是怎麼樣"},{"start":16557.421,"end":16573.327,"text":"這個不是法務部的職權啦這怎麼不是法務部的職權呢?當初講說四部不上台、不演講、不接受訪問、不碰政治現在踩到了紅線踩到已經大家都覺得說這紅線已經虛設虛設到一個離譜誇張的地步一個台灣兩個世界我們中華民國是法治國家嗎?"},{"start":16580.782,"end":16593.021,"text":"法務部有存在必要嗎?各位報告他是臺中監獄然後經由矯正署的這個暫居暫編矯正署、臺中監獄不是歸我們法務部法務部所屬沒有錯是啊那我們本席現在講嘛"},{"start":16594.4,"end":16622.771,"text":"不上台、不演講、不接受訪問跟不碰政治你剛親口講了他有沒有參與過政治活動?有他有沒有去演講過?有他有沒有參加過訪問?他不只參加訪問他變成 搖身一變變成主持人還訪問別人有沒有隨便查陳水扁主持次長不要活在平行時空"},{"start":16624.336,"end":16650.422,"text":"陳水扁主持YouTube頻道178部影片專訪了178位人員其中包括有黃捷我們的立法委員有陳廷飛我們的立法委員有林佳龍我們的總統府秘書長綠營的政治人物幾乎都上過他的專訪178次"},{"start":16656.031,"end":16678.28,"text":"這根本就是一個受刑人保外就醫4部的條件完全虛設然後他每個禮拜上傳他的影片每個禮拜上傳影片178部打臉法務部178次然後我們好像沒看到畫外之地高潭市也沒有這樣子那麼離譜的狀況市長你會不會覺得委屈啊"},{"start":16685.939,"end":16710.84,"text":"我現在罵你我現在質詢你其實我不喜歡罵因為我覺得官員來這邊如果能夠就事論事我們予以尊重但是這件事情已經是讓全國國人可能都看不下去不只是受刑人嘛很多我已經講到啦憑什麼陳水扁受刑人可以保外就醫條件如此寬鬆那一般受刑人申請個保外就醫那麼的困難保外就醫的條件是什麼"},{"start":16713.27,"end":16741.516,"text":"自死率高的疾病衰老或客觀事實無法自理生活病情嚴重、肢體障礙嚴重病情複雜難以控制以及罹患法定傳染病是不是哪一個藥店符合陳水扁受刑人現在符合沒有那我們讓他保外就醫38次讓他四處在外面趴趴走然後你的四部完全就已經是退縮到不能再退縮了現在已經大家覺得習以為常了你知道嗎"},{"start":16746.448,"end":16770.431,"text":"那再來我們都還沒有講到特赦所以說本席也講啊我今天看了你們的一個報告本席某種程度上是支持總統有特赦權要特赦你就特赦讓總統要負起這個責任不是讓我們一個受刑人在外面趴趴走然後挑戰法律誤誤以為台灣法律是他們家開的或是明明講出了這些標準然後就完全不遵守"},{"start":16771.581,"end":16790.335,"text":"那現在總統最後一個禮拜啦他司法問題要用政治解決他也不願意解決啊目前又傳出說這根本只是側風向根本沒有打算要特赦把探索三欲要留給新任的總統賴清德那我們就看啊賴清德上任之後第一個公文要不要簽特赦有沒有這樣的資訊因為很多委員都已經詢問過有沒有去評估"},{"start":16800.68,"end":16821.82,"text":"瞭解 研擬 總統如果要簽特赦的話 後續的流程要怎麼做各位報告 我今天講了很多次了 到目前為止法務部沒有做到沒有嘛 對不對 是 所以這代表是說是不是這就是現在又在測風向我們講說八年總統 總統貴為國家元首我們為什麼法令有一個規範 會是讓總統有這樣一個特赦權"},{"start":16825.728,"end":16849.084,"text":"某種程度上這是國家元首才有的權利但連這樣子他也不願意來去負責或去來去面對然後讓所有執法人員變成是我們的法律完全不用去遵守178部影片打臉法務部178次不覺得很可悲嗎?很悲哀嗎?"},{"start":16851.089,"end":16861.056,"text":"我們的法在某些特定的權貴某些有權力的人面前根本就是被當兒戲在地上踐踏紅線變成紅毯紅毯變成紅龍最後司法院秘書長秘書長我只提一個問題啊司法改革在蔡英文總統這八年任內變成是國人最不滿意的第一名你有什麼想法"},{"start":16882.141,"end":16892.35,"text":"確實在人權保障、審判獨立這一部分包括勞動事件處理法、少年事件處理法"},{"start":16896.479,"end":16919.521,"text":"有改進、精進的地方還是很多有改進還是有改進的地方還是很多我們有精進、我們有進步的地方還是很多像整個人權保障、審判獨立我們都進步了進步然後就還是敬佩莫作還是最不滿意的第一名"},{"start":16921.195,"end":16948.771,"text":"那這個就就這個各種民調有他各種民調的調查方式啦那我們 秘書長請容許本席提醒一下至始至終過去八年蔡英文執政從過去到現在每一次司法改革一定是前三不滿意那現在八年過去了還是首列不滿意第一第二名是經濟、能源相關等"},{"start":16950.922,"end":16975.386,"text":"所以本席現在只想要利用這個機會真的再請秘書長這邊好好去了解為什麼國人真的對於我們台灣的司法沒有信心那如果一樣如果我們的法令我們的司法在有些特定權利人或者是現在是誰當家誰執政就可以有特定人士在外面趴趴走是法律無誤的話國人當然沒有信心當然沒有信心"},{"start":16977.145,"end":16999.5,"text":"這就是本席在今天特別要給法務部跟司法院的一個忠告要讓國人有信心要讓國人認為說我們真的是一個正常法治國家請從捍衛法律人的尊嚴開始做起謝謝好 謝謝那我們現在請王宏威委員"},{"start":17006.226,"end":17011.41,"text":"謝謝主席我請吳秘書長還有黃次長好秘書長、次長好次長我想請問一下因為剛才你回答前面幾位委員都是到現在為止法務部沒有收到來自於行政院的任何的就是要求特赦的言議"},{"start":17031.403,"end":17032.264,"text":"沒有沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":17046.866,"end":17066.544,"text":"那我現在說如果是按照我們的工作時間的話所以我們大概只有短短的12個小時或13個小時如果有可能的話你們法務部接受到行政院給你們的指示然後你們趕快做成言議再回覆給行政院行政院再回覆給總統我這樣講的程序對不對"},{"start":17068.686,"end":17071.867,"text":"是可以的那當然這樣的話就會變成假使在520之前蔡總統要特赦陳水扁那就要由總統府一肩擔起所有的責任是吧"},{"start":17096.633,"end":17122.731,"text":"各位報告這是總統的特別的權益對沒錯即使我們按照說明法給原議他也只是一個但是如果對啦但是如果交給行政院行政院再交給你們的話那當然你們就要共同的去負擔那未來後人講起這件歷史的公案你們也一起丟臉而已啦是不是各位報告我們法務部就是提供法律上法治上的建議"},{"start":17124.953,"end":17148.853,"text":"那法律怎麼規定怎麼做那是一個狀態是一個事實其實陳水扁該不該被特赦其實非常明確的就是到目前為止他還有四個案子還在審查中就根本就還是停止審判那我要特別講到就是說其實特赦陳水扁他當然會變成一個高度的政治性的事件對不起把那個放上去"},{"start":17149.674,"end":17173.006,"text":"特赦陳水扁讓我們認為就是他的條件去跟過去幾任總統包含李登輝陳水扁自己本身還有馬英九他們都有行使他們特赦的權利但是我最近呢我看到應該是今天齁我看到這個聯合報的他們的他不是在報紙上應該是他的這個付費的一個評論我覺得他很有意思"},{"start":17178.649,"end":17182.77,"text":"他把過去幾任總統特赦的對象把它整理出來因為我就說所有你去行使特赦你都要未來去讓外界去檢驗讓後人去檢驗比如說李登輝他特赦了誰呢他特赦了美麗島的政治犯以現在來看的話他雖然也是一個政治性的特赦"},{"start":17201.875,"end":17213.939,"text":"但是呢大家會覺得至少對於臺灣的整個的民主政治跟政黨政治他是有正面性的一個功能好那陳水扁自己本身他的特赦呢他曾經特赦過百米炸彈客這個其實當時在社會上也有非常多的討論另外呢他還有去特赦他是因為有19個人他因為宗教因素他拒服兵役被判刑他也是在他的特赦範圍"},{"start":17231.104,"end":17257.278,"text":"我覺得這些都是我們再回在若干年後10年20年後我們再回來看一下他是不是值得被特赦的一個對象好我們再看那麼蔡英文總統他自己本身也行使過特赦權他曾經特赦過獵人王光祿先生因為當時他他被被稱之為孝子獵人因為他這個是也是跟他原住民族的一個生活文化有關好所以"},{"start":17259.179,"end":17287.881,"text":"今天把這些把它列出來之後就會認為說總統他有這樣一個特赦令就是有這樣特赦權利但是他的一個特赦應該是針對不管一個多元文化或對於台灣的民主、法治的精神或人文關懷的精神是有所注意而有所交代的如果是特赦沉水扁說實在我剛才不是在講嗎希望"},{"start":17289.102,"end":17306.021,"text":"但我希望蔡總統不要在最後的時候去特赦陳水扁他們就算去特赦陳水扁的話那我相信我若是法務部委員希望你根本都不要來問我意見否則的話我還要跟你共同負擔這樣的一個責任所以特赦陳水扁如果是有交換條件的話"},{"start":17307.583,"end":17321.889,"text":"那麼對於司法來說對於司法來說就是你用一個司法的一個特赦然後交換你在政治上不管外界所講的如果蔡總統你今天去特赦陳水扁是不是去報答他過去對你的提攜之恩或者還是說有什麼樣的政治的利益交換這都是我們不願意看到的"},{"start":17332.193,"end":17351.879,"text":"那今天其實我們已經在520已經在倒數計時特赦沉水扁最近被甚囂塵上的傳者可是這也代表我們現在整個的在社會輿論方面其實我包含看到有一些綠營的民意代表也不認為這個時候是特赦沉水扁的好時候"},{"start":17354.62,"end":17374.614,"text":"所以社會沒有共識所以其實特赦陳水扁對於一個樹立就是總統他有這樣的一個特赦權利對台灣的未來也沒有任何的貢獻的時候其實我們會希望蔡總統在最後倒數計時的時候不要去做一些錯誤的事情"},{"start":17375.475,"end":17375.935,"text":"鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":17405.551,"end":17408.521,"text":"主席、各位委員請法務部次長請黃次長"},{"start":17413.84,"end":17440.939,"text":"委員好黃次長好是委員好是常務的次長所以這個我也常擔任過常務副主委這位所以我們作為一個公務人員這個要事先的去針對這個可能性譬如說風向提到說可能會特赦我們有必要的時候我認為這個以這個陳水扁總統的案子"},{"start":17443.755,"end":17473.115,"text":"有必要主動尤其是新的部長上任要主動讓他知道因為高層總統他不會找你嘛對不對他會去找部長啊找行政院長來討論啊所以要提供正確的一個資訊今天都有提到蔡總統這個特赦王光祿王光祿當然要被特赦因為中華民國的法律"},{"start":17474.489,"end":17500.109,"text":"無論是野生動物保育法或是槍砲彈藥刀戒管制條例都不符合憲法以及原住民族基本法的規定所以當然要特赦這個是為什麼呢我們就講你可能比較不清楚我讓你知道原住民的類人"},{"start":17502.087,"end":17528.506,"text":"這個是這個是我們的傳統文化之一而我們的槍炮彈藥槍炮列槍啊我們的列槍啊現在的槍炮彈藥導致管制條例以及所授權定的辦法所能製造的所能持有的自製列槍啊不如日記時代呢"},{"start":17529.793,"end":17557.419,"text":"不如日記時代所以他當然是有違憲法有違原住民族基本法像那個野生動物保育法也是一樣也是一樣有違憲法有違原住民族基本法當時我們一直在這樣講原住民族一直這樣子講果然呢要謝謝司法院"},{"start":17559.207,"end":17582.227,"text":"這個相關的法官判決無罪要謝謝檢察總長替我們這個提出那個叫什麼是在審嗎市長在審對提出在審這個就是說最後你看無罪判決果然是無罪判決"},{"start":17583.684,"end":17601.483,"text":"所以這個是一個應該要做的所以我們陳總統到底到底是不是可以特赦當然作為一個公務人員就應該事先就要整理好資料"},{"start":17603.825,"end":17624.743,"text":"尤其是新的部長要上任新的行政院院長要上任總統一定會諮詢他們的意見他不會問你的意見所以你必須要把相關的意見要先給部長部長給行政院院長來先瞭解總統在徵詢的時候就可以有一個很好的"},{"start":17627.04,"end":17627.14,"text":"這個部份這個"},{"start":17653.824,"end":17679.47,"text":"陳水扁總統他其實是我的老長官我以前是公務員對不對我在延民會當這個副主委但是因為畢竟是涉及到法律法律的事情還是要依法還是要依法辦理現在當然不是你了過去的法務部沒有依法辦理我們陳總統"},{"start":17681.534,"end":17694.264,"text":"他現在可以在外面是用什麼?保外就醫嘛對不對?對嘛有符合嗎?不符合保外就醫嘛因為可能不是你管的這個業務"},{"start":17696.024,"end":17700.868,"text":"現在在矯正署所主管的這些監獄然後我們的多少的這些受刑犯"},{"start":17722.472,"end":17746.703,"text":"在建議裡面然後多少需要常常去醫院的尤其是在台中不是有直接跟醫院有連結的培德培德對不對到底有多少人我們就算那個人數就好了我們就算那個人數對不對他們都還要在那邊對不對他們的案子都還很小呢他們都要在那邊"},{"start":17748.248,"end":17776.712,"text":"我過去曾經關心過我第8屆立委的時候曾經關心過一個原住民就在台中培德結果呢他要申請保衛局又准了陳水扁總統就可以准結果呢他沒有多久沒有幾個禮拜就過世了所以他天差地別啊對不對所以這個部分也要讓"},{"start":17778.787,"end":17793.721,"text":"總統了解啊我們對他已經不錯了法務部說我們對他已經不錯了他還可以直播還可以當主持人對不對所以不要輕易的使用要這樣建議總統好不好這是總統的職權謝謝那我們下一位請陳培鈺委員"},{"start":17803.061,"end":17830.609,"text":"陳培宇委員陳培宇委員好下一位請賴氏寶委員賴氏寶委員賴氏寶委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員楊瓊英委員請楊瓊英委員發言謝主席楊瓊英發言邀請次長請次長"},{"start":17836.124,"end":17861.802,"text":"市長好傳出總統蔡英文女士要特赦有意要特赦總統陳水扁那發言人呢也曾經表示立場是是不是啊各位報告這個是假設問題法務部到目前為止沒有收到正式的指示要不要特赦這件事你還沒有收到指示但是這個是新聞時事啊"},{"start":17865.601,"end":17881.951,"text":"所以你沒有了解這個狀況按照赦免法規定他是總統得令交給本部來做研議啦到目前為止得赦免法裡頭總統得交給法務部來研議那到目前為止520今天是5月"},{"start":17884.895,"end":17914,"text":"今天幾號啊?你也不知道喔?五月十五嘛你不要緊張嘛因為五二零之前好像大家都神經都繃緊了啊那有沒有可能你到目前為止有沒有收到?沒有,法務部沒有收到正式的法務部到目前為止還沒有收到總統令轉要研議的相關的指示令轉你們得去研議總統得嘛這是他的權利嘛你們還沒有收到沒有"},{"start":17914.42,"end":17942.486,"text":"但是你們沒有說到為什麼沸沸揚揚一直這麼說那是不是總統府也可以赦免法本來總統的權利嗎他可以自行宣布啊是不是赦免的確是總統的職權沒有錯總統的職權他可以不透過你法務部按照赦免法規定當然最後研議的部分不見得要交到法務部但是他後面要發給證明給這個受赦免的人的時候必須要進入法務部"},{"start":17943.998,"end":17954.314,"text":"對 但是他可以自行宣布嘛不用請你們研議嘛那是得嘛 對不對那你認為有沒有可能在520之前就來一個宣布然後由你們去執行之"},{"start":17957.503,"end":17962.667,"text":"根據憲法第40條的規定總統依法行使大赦、特赦、減刑及賦權的權利這個特赦的規定在聖明法第3條裡頭更說明受罪刑宣告之人經特赦者免除其刑之執行"},{"start":17987.265,"end":18008.854,"text":"執行其情節特殊者得以其罪行之宣告為無效這是我們特赦那到目前為止你說你們都還沒有收到總統府給你們要去研議所以本期要請教特赦在法制的設定上司法的意義是什麼請做說明"},{"start":18010.854,"end":18011.915,"text":"也想要傳達給社會什麼樣的訊息?"},{"start":18028.935,"end":18051.76,"text":"就是司法救濟他有一定的程序走完之後那總統的職權他就司法救濟無法救濟這個是整個流程那就是說如果在520之前真的總統府來一個這樣子的一個宣告你認為因為未來如果真的宣告你是要法務部去執行那你認為會給社會什麼樣的訊息"},{"start":18056.839,"end":18073.412,"text":"當然今天很多委員也提到這個問題對我們確定的判決效力會產生一些影響社會會不會覺得確定判決的效力受影響這件事情會有所關注我的說明也是畢竟特赦本來就憲法規定的權利本來就會影響確定的判決這個權限本身存在的定性上就會如此"},{"start":18081.71,"end":18087.377,"text":"所以你認為本來就會影響而且這個這麼大的一個事件我們討論到現在將近4分鐘的時間你認為會不會在520之前就來一個宣告"},{"start":18096.887,"end":18097.127,"text":"免刑不免罪"},{"start":18115.261,"end":18144.481,"text":"特赦有兩種 剛才跟委員念的聖明法第三條一個可能性是免除刑之執行 另外一個是罪行無效所以有兩種可能性 看總統選擇哪一種 如果他要行使特赦權的話所以有兩種 因為社會大眾都很 有一點模糊也就是如果真的特赦 那一些停審的案件會不會繼續來審查 那分為兩個部分第一個可以連停審的部分全部"},{"start":18145.642,"end":18149.266,"text":"執行跟無罪就特赦這個部分但是停審的部分呢他按照我們訴訟法規定該進行就進行還是要進行因為本行一定要"},{"start":18165.283,"end":18168.527,"text":"透過麥克風給社會大眾去了解因為最近這一兩個禮拜大家嚴肅的去討論這個問題甚至有說海角7號的錢要不要追回等等等等這一些事件"},{"start":18179.759,"end":18202.429,"text":"所以我們也希望讓社會大眾不要有疑慮說明清楚說明清楚所以我們剛剛說的停審如果真的特赦包括免刑以及免罪就是完全特赦嘛齁但是停審的部分還是依照法律的程序在做是不是沒有錯是是如此嗎因為特赦它的效力不會它的射程不會及為判決確定的對"},{"start":18204.289,"end":18228.096,"text":"為判決確定的是不在這個範圍之內所以我們也給社會大眾去了解清楚才不會大家非常質疑那今天是5月15號大家5月20也是520是一個期待的日子在這個過程當中會不會有任何的變化我們就拭目以待我們總是希望社會能夠安定民眾他能夠有"},{"start":18229.056,"end":18254.503,"text":"有一個安全感讓社會大眾呢大家都以國家為基準是嗎?是謝謝委員好 謝謝最後一位省發會委員改題書面質詢所有登記方案委員都已經發言完畢詢答結束那委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或與書面答覆者請相關機關請入宵個別委員及本會"},{"start":18258.581,"end":18268.269,"text":"委員審發會所提書面執行列入紀錄、刊登公報．並請相關機關以書面答覆本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝各位"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}