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請次長跟署長抱歉 委員哪一個署長國獨署國獨署 國獨署長對 今天很多位署長委員好你們好 我們來談一個很多人關心不過應該是一個很嚴重的造謠跟謠言經理怎麼"},{"start":56.164,"end":61.688,"text":"內政部開了一個記者會說因為藍白凍結了租金的補貼所以導致可能有7萬5千戶的住戶租金補貼會斷催而且可能11月以後就沒辦法發放這是個謠言嗎 是不是你們弄錯了市長還是署長"},{"start":79.485,"end":100.83,"text":"你們消息也沒有弄錯還是故意造謠跟委員報告我們的計算方式是因為大院凍結了本部住宅基金41.47億那如果這個基金相關的補貼如果沒有辦法在這個會期順利被解凍那麼我們擔心我先給你看一下當初三次"},{"start":106.811,"end":134.03,"text":"凍結跟刪除的這個條文 請看一下 來左下角請你唸一下這個條文左下角我框起來那個 雲第七款第二項第三目 來你從那邊開始唸跟我們全國民眾看你到底是造謠還是你們不認識字來 這個預算 這個預算是由台灣民眾黨提案雖然要凍結一部分的預算 可是他先排除了什麼"},{"start":135.376,"end":161.019,"text":"住宅政策跟住宅計畫之推動的計畫也就是你剛講的蘇星的補貼那是刪除的部分不是動體的部分對嘛所以第一個他沒有被那是刪除的部分是補包含你到底是有辦法嗎還是故意跟人家亂說署長跟次長應該不只是認識是水準要很高吧把這個條文再看把這個提案的內容再看一下第一個你們說的"},{"start":162.759,"end":187.915,"text":"你們說的住宅政策就是你所謂的租金的補貼先排除也就是一毛錢都沒有刪對不對這是我自己寫的條文啊你們為什麼把我的條文亂扭曲呢因為它是刪除不是凍結所以在刪除的時候就已經沒有這個嘛就是這個租金補貼已經被排除了嘛所以第一個它不會被凍到第二個下面這個你來練後來要凍結對不對"},{"start":192.247,"end":218.585,"text":"凍結41億好 這個也很重要凍結的是什麼是國土計畫法這個修正裡面你們沒辦法讓它如期的推動本來馬上要做對不對後來是不是推完了這個六年所以那時候我不是問部長你是一步是沒有整個推動過程事先沒有規劃然後也沒有要去溝通沒有因地制宜到後來不負責任"},{"start":219.562,"end":244.397,"text":"四不一沒有 我跟國倉委員都問喔所以你如果不負責你要不要下台因為要你做一個說明嘛所以這個動解是要做什麼叫你針對四不一沒有 欸是沒有一步國土計畫法你延宕這個事情這個條件怎麼寫 來最後一段怎麼寫三個業內跟立法院內政委員會提出專案報告同意以後就可以動之"},{"start":247.723,"end":269.814,"text":"這個跟租金補貼前後有什麼關係第一個這個條文寫的清清楚楚租金補貼一毛錢都沒有刪第二個當節的事國土計劃法修正案而且更重要的清清楚楚寫三個業內人來報告所以次長跟署長你們是聽到底下還是聽到底下要造謠嗎你這個我現在就問一個最簡單的"},{"start":275.598,"end":277.488,"text":"凍結不是刪除啊都已經講你三個月內來報告啊"},{"start":279.81,"end":307.37,"text":"是不是 你現在什麼 你們不準備來報告嗎還是剩餘錢不要跟委員報告就是說我們一定會努力爭取相關的預算的解凍那預算的解凍基於現在大院的規範這個預算的解凍是在內政委員會小組討論就可以委員會討論即可還是要到大院討論即可其實我們目前不清楚這是第一個第二個我們在討論的是市長 市長看您下午的提案內容怎麼會到院會去呢"},{"start":308.717,"end":326.044,"text":"你再唸一次最後一行唸一下最後一行我們要更新的是預算法最後的決定預算法預算法最後送出的決定可能是在大院要做報告我們目前不清楚為什麼到大院做報告市長你再看一下提案內容沒有叫你到院會提案內容叫你到內政委員會你找去院會做什麼你是不滿意還是故意要曲解"},{"start":336.598,"end":350.821,"text":"相關的報告最後到目前為止我們接到的訊息是最後還是要送大院在討論所以我們非常感謝內政委員會的協助我們也感謝委員的承諾所以你的意思市長目前的規範是市長你對著全民講你意思是這筆凍結案內政委員會三個月內過了不算喔照你講是不是這樣"},{"start":358.163,"end":377.271,"text":"是嗎 欸你明確跟全民交代我們現在沒有辦法清楚得到的消息本席在立法院院會提的 通過的條文明明是在內政委員會啊你怎麼扭曲我的條文呢啊如果這樣的話好 OK那這筆就不是只有內政委員會報告喔我們的召集委員在這邊齁好來 我們重新整理一下第一個內政部公布了一個"},{"start":386.584,"end":404.116,"text":"跟事實不符的 要嘛就是造謠嘛要嘛就是不認識 是亂扭曲這個等一下我會把它PO上去給大家看 好不好然後你現在看一下 我還特別提我們全部國庫署的本來預算是多少414.6億這是刪減多少 刪得很少耶2.73而已耶2.73在刪的時候還特別在這個提案裡面清清楚楚"},{"start":412.608,"end":435.61,"text":"民眾的房屋的租屋的補貼一毛錢都不會刪這是第一個第二個凍結了10% 41億這是做什麼事情現在國土計畫上路修改案延誤了是針對這部分來報告沒有叫你報告其他的啊而且裡面寫這麼清楚三個月就已經是可以解凍的啊"},{"start":437.423,"end":447.985,"text":"所以我跟你講喔來還有一個重點你看我們要刪這筆預算跟凍結我們還特別去算過你們講的你說房屋經費一共有多少錢你國土署自己講的31億對不對一年要用372億你把那個凍結的錢都算進去414減掉那個刪除的再把凍結算進去你一整年也夠啊"},{"start":463.971,"end":482.244,"text":"所以你換了三個錯誤啊第一個你把已經被我們很清楚說不會刪的東西也不會凍的租金補貼你把它造謠第一次第二個造謠是什麼凍解的根本跟這個沒有關係而且要你三個月以內就來解凍第三個更嚴重你今天你所需要的三百欸 署長"},{"start":483.464,"end":502.085,"text":"你所需要的370億 怎麼算這筆錢都是夠的 只有你跟我講說影響到7.5萬戶還要到11月 要轉去電機 就沒有了我們做個結論啦 蘇定所以我跟國民報告 第一個這整個提案 我們也覺得很無可奈何因為提案的是國土計畫 結果去動租金補貼"},{"start":503.166,"end":517.476,"text":"這就是第一個我們也覺得很無奈因為國土計畫的本身的經費只有301萬但是你卻去動了租金補貼這是第一個提案的最大問題第二個等一下等一下等一下我會說明一下等一下等一下你講的不對我們這筆預算裡面這個項目就是414億啊就是你國庫所有414嘛對不對所以不是國土計畫的部門第二個我們清楚跟你講有排除"},{"start":530.352,"end":557.202,"text":"排除是只有在刪除那只有刪除的部分是排除凍結沒有凍結沒有而且凍結是三個月趕快來報告就沒有了就解凍了所以凍結的部分才會去含到租金補貼因為國路計畫本身的預算只有301萬所以我才會說這個提案就像我們現在專案報告我們也不曉得是要提國路計畫還是要提租金補貼還是要提道路下水道因為全部都在裡面"},{"start":559.003,"end":576.954,"text":"這個提案內容還講到就是你們國土來來一開始就國土署在國土計畫法修法過程裡面被批評存在一步是沒有的情況你針對這個你跟地方政府沒有好好溝通民眾有餘力嘛所以才拖延了六年開始要實施對不對"},{"start":578.14,"end":601.17,"text":"你們的政治存在更重要的你們沒有達成你們本來設定馬上要上路所以叫你們來報告三個月後三個月內來報告完以後才能解凍是不是這樣這個提案內容這麼清楚結果你們一定要把它誤解成我們做個結論第一個你們很清楚跟民眾講我們也跟民眾講第一個因為當時的提案是本來應該是要動國土計劃法本身的經費結果卻動到了全屬的經費"},{"start":607,"end":616.964,"text":"所以你都不看提案內容就對了凍結是針對國土計劃法引落上路這個事情然後國土計劃本身的經費很少所以才會凍到其他的經費現在的狀況是這樣如果今天只凍國土計劃法相關的預算其實那是很少但是結果卻凍到了全部的經費所以才會有後面這些事情產生"},{"start":634.96,"end":644.192,"text":"這是六年來跑立法院的新聞出了三本預算的書 我在裡面聽到有這種解說一個大的預算項目裡面 要你凍結的項目很清楚"},{"start":645.506,"end":668.215,"text":"而且租屋的這個補貼中心都已經這麼清楚好啦你現在OK那你現在最關鍵是什麼三個月內現在已經開始了好不好你三個月內裡面都跟你講說你趕快針對國有計畫法這個提來以後你這個事實一一就可以解凍了嘛對不對是不是這樣對我們也會有準備所以不要就次長你剛剛講什麼送到宴會你如果真的要送到宴會我們就正式在提案說因為次長"},{"start":668.795,"end":691.584,"text":"要求,所以不是送到委員會解凍你趕快提,趕快解凍,這時候問題都解決了,是不是這樣?我們現在已經提案在做說明了,好,謝謝好,所以本席非常明確的要求,跟民眾講清楚就提案的內容,沒有動到任何的租金的這個補貼第二個你們要來做報告,三個月內在內政委員會就解凍了不要讓人民擔心,好不好"},{"start":692.344,"end":700.386,"text":"我更明確要求你們要過幾天你們行政院長要下箱去先講我還是要跟委員報告不要再繼續造謠國土計劃法凍結的預算應該只有針對國土計劃的預算大概只有310幾萬但是因為你們凍結了40幾億所以他就凍到了其他相關的基金這些相關的基金就跟"},{"start":711.309,"end":732.071,"text":"住宅補貼 租金補貼直接做連結所以他被排除嘛那我還進一步算給你聽你們國庫署自己講你一年需要372對不對你的錢就是明明比372還多啊不要讓遙遠再繼續下去 把他更正好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝張祺凱偉我補充說明一下喔那我剛剛特別跟醫事人員做一下確認啦基本上解凍案"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1204,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時42分）請次長及署長。"],["主席：請次長及署長。委員，請問是哪一位署長？"],["張委員啓楷：國土署。"],["主席：請國土署吳署長。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：你們好。我們來談一個很多人關心卻是一個很嚴重的謠言，前一陣子內政部召開了一場記者會，表示因為藍白凍結了租金的補貼，所以導致可能有7.5萬戶的租金補貼會斷炊，可能在11月之後就沒辦法發放，這是一個謠言嗎？是不是你們弄錯了？次長、署長，你們的消息有沒有弄錯？或是故意造謠？"],["董次長建宏：報告委員，根據我們的計算方式，因為大院凍結了本部的住宅基金41.47億元，關於這個基金相關的補貼，如果沒有辦法在這個會期順利被解凍，我們擔心可能就沒辦法……"],["張委員啓楷：我先讓你看一下當初凍結及刪除的條文，請看一下！請你念一下左下角的條文！左下角，我匡起來的部分，「爰第七款第二項第三目」，你從那邊開始念，告訴全國民眾，到底是你們造謠或是你們不認識字？這個預算是由台灣民眾黨提案，雖然要凍結了一部分的預算，但是要先排除住宅政策及住宅計畫推動的計畫，也就是你剛剛講的租金補貼。"],["吳署長欣修：那是刪除的部分，不是凍結的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！第一個，它沒有被……"],["吳署長欣修：那是刪除的部分，是不包含……"],["張委員啓楷：你到底識不識字？或是故意的？署長或次長應該不只識字，水準應該要很高吧？把這個提案的內容再看一下！第一個，你們說的住宅政策，也就是所謂的租金補貼，必須要先予以排除，所以一毛錢都沒有刪，對不對？這是我自己寫的條文啊！為什麼你們要扭曲我所寫的條文呢？"],["吳署長欣修：所以它是刪除，不是凍結。"],["張委員啓楷：所以在刪除的時候就沒有這個嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員啓楷：租金補貼已經被排除了嘛！第一個，它不會被凍到。第二個……"],["吳署長欣修：是刪除，不是凍結。"],["張委員啓楷：後來要凍結，對不對？凍結41億元，這個也很重要，凍結的是什麼？是國土計畫法的修正，你們沒辦法讓它如期推動，本來馬上就要做了，對不對？後來是不是晚了6年，所以當時我們就詢問部長是一不四沒有，整個推動過程在事先沒有規劃，也沒有要去溝通、沒有因地制宜，到後來就不負責任，一不四沒有！我與國昌委員都問了部長，如果再不負責是否要下台？因為要你做一個說明嘛！所以這個凍結是要做什麼？要你針對四沒有一不、國土計畫法延宕的事情，請看這個條文是怎麼寫、最後一段怎麼寫？3個月內向立法院內政委員會提出專案報告，同意之後就可以動支。請問這個與租金補貼有什麼關係？第一個，這個條文寫得清清楚楚，租金補貼一毛錢都沒有刪。第二個，凍結的是國土計畫法修正案，更重要的一點，寫得清清楚楚：3個月內提出報告。次長、署長，你們是故意要造謠嗎？"],["董次長建宏：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：我現在問一個最簡單的，凍結不是刪除啊！都已經講了要你們在3個月內來報告啊！是不是？現在你們是不準備來報告嗎？還是這筆錢不要了？"],["董次長建宏：報告委員，我們一定會努力爭取相關預算的解凍，但是關於預算的解凍，根據大院現在的規範，這個預算的解凍是在內政委員會討論即可或是要到大院討論即可，其實我們目前並不清楚，這是第一個。第二個，我們在討論的……"],["張委員啓楷：次長，看一下我的提案內容，怎麼會到院會去呢？你再念一次最後一行、念一下最後一行！"],["董次長建宏：我們是要依據預算最後的決定，預算送出的最後決定可能是要在大院提出報告，目前我們並不清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼要去大院做報告？次長，你再看一下！提案內容並沒有要你去院會提出報告、提案內容是要你在委員會提出報告，你去院會是要做什麼？你是不識字或是故意要曲解？"],["董次長建宏：關於相關的報告，到目前為止我們接到的訊息是最後還是要送大院再做討論。我們非常感謝內政委員會的協助、我們也感謝委員的澄清。目前相關的規範是……"],["張委員啓楷：次長，依照你的說法，內政委員會在3個月內通過這筆凍結案也不算數，是不是這樣？是嗎？"],["董次長建宏：我們現在沒有辦法清楚的……"],["張委員啓楷：你這樣要如何向全民交代？"],["董次長建宏：我們現在沒辦法清楚得到的消息是……"],["張委員啓楷：本席在立法院通過的條文明明是在內政委員會提出報告，你怎麼可以扭曲我的條文呢？如果是這樣的話，這一筆就不只是要在內政委員會報告喔！我們的召集委員也在此，來，我們重新整理一下。第一個，內政部公布了一個與事實不符的消息，要嘛就是造謠，要嘛就是不識字、亂扭曲，等下我會po上去給大家看，好不好？你現在再看一下，我還特別提出，原本國土署的全部預算是多少？414.6億元，這次刪減了多少？刪得很少耶！2.73億元而已耶！而且刪除2.73億元，還在這個提案條文清清楚楚的提到，民眾的租屋補貼一毛錢都不刪，這是第一個。第二個，凍結的10%、41億元是做什麼事情？國土計畫上路，修改案延誤了，現在是要針對這個部分提出報告，沒有要你報告其他的啊！而且裡面寫得這麼清楚，3個月內就可以解凍啊！還有一個重點，你看！我們要刪減及凍結這筆預算時還特別計算過，你說房屋津貼一個月要多少錢？國土署自己講的，31億元，對不對？一年需要用372億元，你把那個凍結的錢再算進去，414億元減掉刪除的，再把凍結的錢算進去，一整年也夠啊！所以你犯了3個錯誤，第一個，對於我們已經清楚說明不會刪也不會凍結的租金補貼，你做了第一次的造謠。第二次的造謠是什麼？凍結的部分根本與這個沒有關係，而且要你在3個月內來提出報告就可以解凍。第三個更是嚴重，署長，你所需要的372億元，怎麼算這筆錢都是夠的，現在你告訴我會影響到7.5萬戶，甚至到11月就沒有了。我做一個結論，署長……"],["吳署長欣修：報告委員，第一個，我們對於整個提案也覺得很無可奈何，因為提案的是國土計畫，結果去凍租金補貼，這是第一個我們也覺得很無奈之處。因為國土計畫本身的經費只有301萬元，但是你卻凍結了租金補貼，這是第一個提案的最大問題。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有凍啊！等一下、等一下……"],["吳署長欣修：我也說明一下……"],["張委員啓楷：等一下、等一下，你講的不對。我們這筆預算的項目就是414億元、就是國土署的414億元，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以不是國土計畫的部分，而是國土……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，我已經告訴你有排除，所以你是不識字嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：排除是只有在刪除，只有刪除的部分是排除的。"],["張委員啓楷：凍結沒有。"],["吳署長欣修：凍結沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：凍結沒有，而且是3個月內趕快來報告就可以解凍了。"],["吳署長欣修：所以凍結的部分才會包含到租金補貼，因為國土計畫本身的預算只有301萬元，現在我們也不知道專案報告是要提國土計畫，或是要提租金補貼，或是要提道路、下水道，因為全部都包含在裡面。"],["張委員啓楷：這個提案內容還講到國土署在國土計畫法修法過程中被批評存在一不四沒有的情況，針對這個部分，你們與地方政府沒有好好溝通，導致民眾產生疑慮，所以拖延了六年才要開始實施，對不對？更重要的是你們沒有達成原本馬上要上路的設定，所以才要求你們在3個月內提出報告之後就可以解凍，是不是這樣？這個提案內容這麼清楚，結果你們卻要誤解成……我們做個結論，第一個，你們很清楚的告訴民眾……"],["吳署長欣修：我們是告訴民眾，當時的提案本來應該是要凍結國土計畫法本身的經費，結果卻凍到全署的經費。"],["張委員啓楷：什麼凍到全署的經費？但提案的內容寫得這麼清楚。"],["吳署長欣修：對，也就是凍到全署的經費……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你們都不看提案內容就對了？凍結是針對國土計畫法延後上路的這件事情……"],["吳署長欣修：最後的表決就是要凍這麼多錢……"],["張委員啓楷：今天我要你念的提案內容都已經寫得這麼清楚。"],["吳署長欣修：但是國土計畫法的經費又很少，才會因而凍到其他的經費，現在的狀況就是這樣。如果今天只凍國土計畫法相關的預算，其實是很少的，結果卻凍到了全部的經費，才會有後面這些事情產生。"],["張委員啓楷：我從民國76年開始跑立法院的新聞，出版了3本預算方面的書，還是第一次聽到這種解釋。一個大的預算項目中，要凍結的項目很清楚，而且租屋補貼都已經這麼清楚……"],["吳署長欣修：就是因為凍結金額這麼高啊！"],["張委員啓楷：好，現在你最關鍵的是什麼？3個月內，現在已經開議多久了？之前就告訴你要趕快針對國土計畫法來提出報告，這筆41億元就可以解凍了，對不對？是不是這樣？"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們也會有準備啊！"],["張委員啓楷：次長，剛才你說什麼要送到院會，如果真的是要送到院會，我們就正式提案，因為次長的要求，所以不是送到委員會就可以解凍。如果你趕快提出報告就可以趕快解凍，這時候問題就都解決了，是不是這樣？"],["董次長建宏：我們現在已經要提案說明了，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：本席非常明確的要求，向民眾講清楚，根據提案的內容，並沒有凍到任何的租金補貼。第二個，你們要來做報告，在3個月內來內政委員會提出報告就可以解凍，不要讓民眾擔心，好不好？我在此更明確的要求，過幾天你們的行政院長要下鄉宣講，不要再用錯誤的訊息繼續造謠、不要再繼續造謠。"],["董次長建宏：報告委員，剛才署長已經講了，國土計畫法凍結的預算應該只有針對國土計畫的預算，也就是只有317萬元，但是因為你們凍結了四十幾億元，所以就凍到了其他相關的基金，這些相關的基金就與住宅補貼之租金補貼直接連結。"],["張委員啓楷：所以它被排除嘛！我還進一步算給你聽，國土署自己說一年需要372億元，對不對？你的錢明明就比372億元還多啊！不要讓謠言再繼續下去了，趕快更正，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。","我補充說明一下，剛剛特別與議事人員做了確認，基本上，解凍案應該要經過院會才能付委啊！應該是這樣，但是解凍的主體按照提案說明當然是在內政委員會嘛！所以沒有在院會處理的問題。當然各個部會面對解凍案的壓力都很大，但是按照立法院正常的程序，大家行使職權，本來就是要來向委員提出說明，我也相信在大家的充份說明之後，立法委員都不會互相為難，其實要解凍是可以商量的，所以請內政部積極處理。第三，我一定要特別講，大家都不樂見預算案變成太過政治操作的工具，一旦變成政治操作，大家都各說各的、互相抹黑，反而會讓原本可以順利溝通解凍政策的平台失去本來的美意，對大家而言都不是好事，所以我們就回到立法院正常的程序，該溝通說明的就溝通說明，趕快提案、趕快來排解凍，好不好？這樣我們就可以把這個問題解決掉，謝謝。","請王義川委員。王義川委員、王義川委員不在。","請翁曉玲委員。翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員。蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請何欣純委員。何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","請羅明才委員。羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","下一位請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}