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然後會發生的事情你們連這種常態或發生的事情你們都沒有辦法應變然後今天還有勞蘇昭偉排一個歷史專案報告來這邊做討論的情況之下這幾個人是要怎麼舉的好這家屬是要怎麼奉心喪意去進行"},{"start":360.348,"end":385.368,"text":"這次去診所的醫生要怎麼讓我去救人這次的護士要做到什麼程度 要抄到什麼程度這次能不能遞到你政府 還是便宜了更多的這種事前所未有呢急診用篩情況已達前所未有的嚴重程度你們不敢否認嘛 事實就如此嘛為什麼會這樣呢"},{"start":387.182,"end":398.133,"text":"你們真的面對到問題然後了解到問題怎麼去處理這個問題是不是請部長能用最簡單最快的然後最重點式的方式來做個回應好不好"},{"start":398.735,"end":426.348,"text":"好的 我想我們在在每年過春節的時候我們都很擔心所以就有預備包括政府也幫忙所以我們買了10萬支的一個疫苗希望控制流感然後我們也開健保署也加重了那個各個 尤其是診所給他多30%的一個給付那機關署也在也在那個各個急診"},{"start":428.189,"end":449.859,"text":"補助來成立了傳染病的一個門診來分散急診的力量的一個人力的量能的承擔所以這樣的一個情況那當然我們的確這次的就診人數比較多就診人數比較多後闖的就比較多那其實這個部分我們都完全的有訴訟的掌控那自己急診醫學會其實我跟"},{"start":451.52,"end":470.415,"text":"集子醫學院的理事長是非常熟悉所以我們一直在討論那他們可能集子醫學院本身也覺得必須要呼籲當然他要發布這個我是尊重而且我們悉心因為總是要面對問題嘛那問題出來就是來解決啊所以那個"},{"start":471.676,"end":487.516,"text":"我們來探討NEC是一回事解決困難才是重要的所以我們就馬上發動NEC的一個調配的機制第二個我們也發動區域的聯防第三個我們更是希望民眾如果有任何問題是不是優先先到你的"},{"start":488.837,"end":504.665,"text":"各地的一個社區診所先做一個screen因為可能很多流感啊那種病毒在那邊處理就好了這是一個短暫那我們持續這樣努力的就是我們護理的工作環境待遇跟一個環境另外也"},{"start":505.325,"end":522.004,"text":"健保署馬上在處理集中症方面的一個給付這個部分也馬上會來5月會來落實我們緊急希望來改善未來我們會更聆聽各方的聲音看看怎麼樣來共同來面對這個醫療界的一個很重要的問題"},{"start":523.085,"end":545.944,"text":"部長我想不用聆聽了你直接要到現場到戰場去實地的了解這個我想很多面相要討論也有面相要處理對不對但是我們簡單講一下基層醫學會特別有做這樣的呼籲我在波文也特別提到我不曉得你們到現在為何不可以去掌控"},{"start":546.644,"end":574.991,"text":"掌握了全國像遇到這種兩三類型的流感在交互的時候在盛行的時候那你必須要去掌握全國這些急診室的觀察床還是一般的病床還是這個ICU的使用率還是空床率都有掌握而且15分鐘就會換心理次你們怎麼掌握我們有那個平台哪一個平台可以跟我說清楚哪一個平台嗎"},{"start":576.868,"end":604.302,"text":"對於急診的及時就醫人數的話其實我們是自動間接醫院的掛號系統所以是說每15分鐘登記一次所以就醫的來診量跟住院的在ICU特別是加護病房因為現況的部分其實塞車的都是那幾家大醫院然後以這樣子的來說的話其實我們在部裡面的政策其實就是重症不漏接然後那個系統基本上面就是連從我們的"},{"start":605.562,"end":629.43,"text":"衛福部的緊急藥管理系統裡面去接醫院的掛號的一個系統以上就是就是到醫院的一個掛號系統你們去透過那個系統去掌握掌握病床數ICU急診的觀察床急診的待床人數急診的待床人數然後跟所謂的那個我們加護病房的空床數使用率"},{"start":630.69,"end":641.769,"text":"那個系統可以那個系統是在給你做這樣的功能還是只有在統計那個後程的功能"},{"start":643.84,"end":672.474,"text":"給民眾的其實很重要的其實民眾需要知道就是哪邊現在有等候很多的後床的人數所以公開給民眾的即時資訊其實是後床的人數每一家醫院的後床人數這是公開給民眾的這是公開給民眾嘛對不對那你衛部你要去掌握嘛對不對那你衛部掌握是透過什麼掌握你是透過這個掌握跟一般民眾去看這個地方的待床數後診數還有我們還要掌握江戶病房的"},{"start":673.602,"end":694.151,"text":"你怎麼掌握嘛哪一個系統掌握我們的緊急醫療管理系統緊急醫療管理系統可以去掌握全國現在遇到這樣的疫情情況之下哪一家醫院還有多少的空床宿哪一家醫院家戶病房 ICU其他沒有嘛急診沒有嘛一般病床沒有嘛或診病人有啊"},{"start":695.592,"end":716.723,"text":"後診病人是後診病人的人數嗎還有等候病後床的就是說我們掌握的除了等候的人數就是還沒被看的嘛然後第二個其實是已經看完以後在流管的人數還有就是說流管確定要住院大概這幾個是我們會持續掌握的人數"},{"start":717.443,"end":745.451,"text":"沒有 這蘇昭薇來行的 你要讓她說她會聽下去喔你說我會不會聽到 有沒有聽到沒有我再請到一邊就對了Common Lighting 你是怎麼掌握你們有什麼系統去掌握Common Lighting 就是你衛護部成立一個指揮中心我知道對一邊有ICU 我知道對一邊還有多少的控窮力我知道對一邊可以怎麼做讓我去做調配嘛 對不對那你是用哪一個系統也是緊急醫療管理系統緊急醫療管理系統"},{"start":746.584,"end":775.16,"text":"不對吧你COVID-19爆發的時候衛生部不是有建設一個叫做全國負壓病房的管理系統當時是為了掌握負壓病房的空床域嘛請139家隔離醫院每日自結合並追蹤管理系統通報負壓病房隔離病床的收治情形嘛對不對讓指揮中心能夠掌握全國負壓病房的即時動態嘛是不是這樣那個是不是啦我要講的是這邊在講的是負壓隔離病房"},{"start":775.72,"end":795.937,"text":"對嘛 這戶要是用這樣處理嘛 對不對對 然後他要人工通報可是我們這邊是直接接醫院的住院管理系統所以是直接自動通報直接接受醫院的住院的系統對好 所以你就可以即時去掌握這家醫院的ICU對的空窗率 空窗數對朝偉 你 朝偉已經在嘆氣了你說對你自己說對"},{"start":805.529,"end":807.071,"text":"每天不管是長官或我們自己內部都有都掌握到11點跟下午3點的一個狀況"},{"start":825.808,"end":835.557,"text":"不過你要看喔你要看COVID-19爆發的時候你們是用什麼呢你們是用這個全國負壓病房的管理系統好然後這個是什麼請139家隔離醫院"},{"start":840.97,"end":869.787,"text":"每日是結合並追蹤管理系統通報這個是人工的我們現在目前這個是我們在講的是傳染病防治所以他是139家醫院我們全國的急救責任醫院是205家所以我們的急救責任醫院的數目遠比隔離醫院來的多然後因為大家人工通報這個增加人工的負荷所以我們這邊的緊急藥管系統是直接借劫然後反而可以減少人力以上"},{"start":871.892,"end":890.339,"text":"真的我們的系統是可以確認你現在可以跟部長講說全國現在哪一家就是205家嘛對不對這家醫院哪邊有空床ICU 監護病房還有後床後床的人後床的人數"},{"start":891.959,"end":911.235,"text":"後診的人數後診跟後診的人數不一樣後診不一定要去後床啊對 後診就是說沒看到的啦是嘛是嘛 沒看到就不一定去變成了等要斷的啦 是啊等要斷的 另外就是ICU 那也很重要嘛ICU的空床現在的狀況啊你我剛才說的等要斷的人沒有代表你我剛才說的你的空白房啊"},{"start":914.142,"end":930.1,"text":"你說地方有六個地方 那就另外一個體系沒關係啦 我覺得現在已經是AI時代嘛AI行動創新內閣如果連這樣的系統都建置得很奇怪如果說今天community的時候還要去借CDC的所謂的結核病最終管理系統"},{"start":931.101,"end":950.034,"text":"那我就覺得到現在沒有把這個東西建設起來這個衛護部有愧對國人這第一件事情第二件事情分級醫療我跟部長講部長特別重視分級醫療但分級醫療不處理妥當的話我們下次的開會還是會再討論到分級醫療這個我都有特別提供出來數字應該也跟你們一樣你自己可以看醫學中心看診率106年看診率是10.65%113年是再往上"},{"start":961.501,"end":967.886,"text":"然後這個113的全國轉整數上轉的數額高達99萬222件下轉的只有10萬08千多件等於是1比9啦如果要說那麼嚴重是1比10啦因為是99萬多嘛"},{"start":980.373,"end":992.116,"text":"若是說對的額度要轉上去的上轉的這個數跟下轉數就是不符合比例所以1比10嘛這個情況一直沒有改善過啊所以我才說你們分級醫療在這個地方就連衛福部都沒有再分級了啦你如果去交代這些大醫院小醫院跟你再做分級醫療"},{"start":1006.397,"end":1022.464,"text":"包委員這個病人如果已經到譬如說到台大醫院你要他到中興醫院去住院那是要揮盡多少我們是揮盡多少苦心跟他說你到中興醫院也可以得到很好的一個照顧還有那邊的總醫師都會來看所以這樣的"},{"start":1024.304,"end":1048.174,"text":"所以第一個應該是先讓民眾知道他的問題到哪邊看是最適合的我剛剛有報告如果他的身體有任何不舒服我們希望他旁邊有社區診所有家庭醫師先跟他過濾他自然就會說你這個我直接去中心醫院斷他就好了不用去台台台你可能要等很久的那裡也沒床等等這些我相信"},{"start":1050.354,"end":1071.779,"text":"這樣這個才是真的分歧醫療啦不然你說的是一個樣態啦有這個樣態這是事實嘛對不對尤其你跟便衣你要再叫一台也不會啦這我們知道啦這很清楚但是我現在是要跟你說你一般接受你要上傳去大型便衣就對了其實像專程當中開到人家的衣繩也會說得很清楚嘛接受衣繩會跟你說你代替找什麼人你去代替找衣繩嘛就很簡單就這樣解決嘛但是"},{"start":1075.2,"end":1099.027,"text":"他來大便宜的 其實他想要大便宜的 舊地的對嗎 異地的他可以去一般接受嘛啊 也行啊對啊 啊這要怎麼處理這要怎麼存這要怎麼存上轉的 這樣處理有高的測試啊 如果他轉下去我們一個也給他幾百塊的一個下轉的費用啊所以那個 所以這個也 這幾天來一直在鼓勵啊"},{"start":1099.967,"end":1113.894,"text":"這個我是確定知道的啦因為我們很鼓勵攤辦性病就盡量轉回社區去去看就好了在大型的醫院的醫師有感想說你去哪家診所嗎轉到哪家診所去嗎"},{"start":1115.143,"end":1132.084,"text":"其實現在都有社區醫療群的制度是沒有錯啦所以那個都大概我台大醫院我們上轉藥到的醫院會很明確啦我們下轉藥到其他診所下轉的醫院有很多它的轄下可能有100家診所對譬如台大醫院的社區醫療群有5個每一個大概有10個"},{"start":1134.266,"end":1147.816,"text":"診所 沒關係啦 不用時間管理啦 要不要給教育委員我自己做主席 我想你可以去掃去我們參考嗎下轉的情況 為什麼會這麼低嘛你們的檢討是在什麼地方 怎麼樣來改善對 一個星期可以給我們嗎好 先保持 先保持謝謝 感謝 謝謝劉建國委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1365,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時40分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好！"],["劉委員建國：部長辛苦了，有很多挑戰啦！"],["邱部長泰源：是，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：我想今年1月起的流感，還有諾羅等疾病的流行，結果急診室大爆滿，2月更達到高峰，然後急診醫學會也發文警告急診壅塞情況，它是說「急診壅塞情況已達前所未有的嚴重程度」，部長，當急診醫學院發出這個聲明，我是替你感到汗顏也難過，因為在你的任內遇到前所未有的急診壅塞，部長也貴為醫師嘛！雖然是家醫科，但也來自臺大，那總統也是醫師，我們的召委也是醫師，蘇召委是醫師，我不是故意要拖你下水。在部長的任內發生前所未有的急診壅塞的嚴重程度，然後急診醫學會跳出來訴諸媒體，反而不是訴諸衛福部的相關單位看如何做最快的、有效的因應作為來減緩這樣的壅塞，坦白講，我覺得這個是很大的諷刺啦！","部長，你如果用另外一個角度去思考臺灣的醫療，尤其在急診的部分，已經有很嚴重的問題在發生，而且會越來越惡劣，然後我們都很清楚嘛！在連假的時間，因為農曆過年期間什麼地方人最多？觀光地區嘛！宗教地區嘛！還有一區你知道嗎？醫院啦！醫院在過年期間可以說是全部都爆床、滿床就對了，到急診留觀的，他或許不一定要上到病床，但是他可能要在那邊待3個鐘頭、4個鐘頭、5個鐘頭，他或許得了諾羅，上吐下瀉，他總是要有一個觀察床讓他可以平躺，好好休息一下嘛！但是基本上是不可能啦！現在連急診室留觀的觀察床都不足，甚至你是坐在椅子上等待處置，臺灣的急診狀態部長應該要很清楚，就算部長不清楚，醫事司也應該很清楚，相關的單位也會很清楚，怎麼會變成這個樣子，然後讓急診醫學會是透過媒體來發聲？我覺得在連結上是出了什麼問題？今天如果部長是牙醫，還是部長是社福的，我倒不會特別去提醒這件事情，我會用另外一個角度去思考、去討論，但畢竟部長就是我剛剛特別提到的，你來自臺大，然後又是家醫科的專業醫師，總統也是醫師啊！那我們怎麼會在這個當下發生這麼嚴重的狀況，讓急診醫學會沒有辦法跟你們反映，看要如何來因應，讓這樣的急診壅塞不會破紀錄的、前所未有的，然後來得到舒緩？","我覺得這件事情部長要講清楚，我也覺得這件事情部長要非常慎重，因為等一下會再討論到分級醫療，分級醫療8年了，為什麼做不好？你們衛福部連分級的管理都出問題啊！你們衛福部連分級怎麼做都一直出問題，所以會累死部長啊！今天這件事情如果沒有很慎重、很嚴肅地去面對，而且那個積極應變的方式不趕快出來，我覺得不要說醫療體系會崩壞、急診會崩壞，連衛福部都會崩壞啊！部長，我說這些不知道你可以接受嗎？我真的是肺腑之言啦！對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：怎麼可以在你的任內發生這種事情？而且流感、A流、諾羅摻著這種很惡劣的情況一直在發生，你應該清楚醫院會遇到什麼狀況、診所會遇到什麼狀況，而且又適逢農曆過年，其實如果有在衛福部待一段時間或是有在醫院待一段時間的人就會很清楚，這一定有問題，要怎麼去應變、要怎麼去處理，你要怎麼想出一套應變的方式，不要讓這些病患、這些病患家屬、這些醫生及這些護士產生這麼大、這麼大的怨言，然後這個怨言還無法直接對你們，還要透過媒體來跟你們說，這真的是我們要做很大檢討的地方。","這個不用談到什麼專業了啦！我坦白講啦！這種常態會發生的事情，你們連這種事情都沒有辦法應變，然後今天還有勞蘇召委排一個類似專案報告來這邊做討論的情況之下，這些急診的人怎麼能夠被救治？這些家屬怎麼能夠放心送他去急診室？這些急診室的醫生怎麼能夠好好去救人？這些護士要做到什麼程度、操到什麼程度，才能得到政府或是醫院更多的重視？前所未有耶！「急診壅塞情況已達前所未有的嚴重程度」，你們也不敢否認嘛！事實就是如此，為什麼會這樣？你們真的面對到問題，然後瞭解到問題，怎麼去處理這個問題，是不是請部長能用最簡單、最快的，然後最重點式的方式來做一個回應？好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的，我們在每年過春節的時候都很擔心，所以就有預備，包括政府也幫忙，我們買了10萬支的疫苗希望控制流感，然後健保署也加重給付，尤其是診所，給它多30%的給付，那疾管署也在各個急診補助，成立了傳染病的門診來分散急診人力量能的承擔，所以是這樣的一個情況。當然的確這一次的就診人數比較多，就診人數多，候床的就比較多，其實這個部分我們都完全有數字的掌控。","至於急診醫學會，其實我跟急診醫學會的理事長非常熟悉，所以我們一直在討論，可能急診醫學會本身也覺得必須要呼籲，當然它要發布這個我是尊重，而且我們虛心來面對，因為總是要面對問題嘛！那問題出來就是來解決啊！我們來探討原因這是一回事，解決困難才是重要，所以第一個，我們就馬上發動院內的調配機制；第二個，我們也發動區域的聯防；第三個，我們更是希望民眾如果有任何問題，是不是優先到各地的社區診所先做一個screening？因為可能很多的流感、諾羅病毒在那邊處理就好了，這是一個短暫的，那我們持續在努力的就是護理的工作環境、待遇。","另外，健保署馬上在處理急重症方面的給付，這個部分在5月會來落實，我們緊急希望來改善，未來我們會更聆聽各方的聲音，看看怎麼樣共同來面對醫療界一個很重要的問題。"],["劉委員建國：部長，我想不用聆聽了，你要直接到現場、到戰場去實地瞭解嘛！我想很多面向要討論啦！有的面向應該要處理，對不對？但是我們簡單講一下，急診醫學會有特別做這樣的呼籲，我在po文也特別提到，我不曉得你們到現在衛福部可以去掌控、掌握啦！全國像遇到這種兩、三種類型的流感在交互的時候、在盛行的時候，你必須要去掌握全國這些急診室的觀察床，還是一般的病床，或是ICU的使用率、空床率嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：有，這個都有掌握。"],["劉委員建國：都有掌握？"],["邱部長泰源：而且15分鐘就會換新一次。"],["劉委員建國：你們怎麼掌握？"],["邱部長泰源：我們有平臺。"],["劉委員建國：哪一個平臺？可以跟我們說清楚是哪一個平臺嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：請司長。"],["劉司長越萍：對於急診的即時就醫人數，其實我們是自動介接醫院的掛號系統，每15分鐘登記一次，所以就就醫的來診量跟住院在ICU的，特別是加護病房，因為現況的部分其實塞車的都是那幾家大醫院，以這樣來說的話，其實我們在部裡面的政策就是重症不漏接，然後那個系統基本上就是從我們衛福部的緊急醫療管理系統裡面去接醫院的掛號系統，以上。"],["劉委員建國：就是到醫院的掛號系統，你們透過那個系統去掌握。"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：掌握病床數、ICU、急診的觀察床，那個系統……"],["劉司長越萍：急診的待床人數，還有加護病房的空床數、使用率。"],["邱部長泰源：都有，那個都有掌握。"],["劉委員建國：那個系統可以？那個系統是給你做這樣的功能，還是只有在統計候診的功能？"],["劉司長越萍：給民眾的，其實很重要的，民眾需要知道的就是哪邊現在有等候很多的候床人數，所以公開給民眾的即時資訊其實是候床的人數，每一家醫院的候床人數是公開給民眾的。"],["劉委員建國：好，這是公開給民眾，對不對？"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：那衛福部要去掌握，對不對？"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：那衛福部掌握是透過什麼掌握？也是透過這個掌握，跟一般民眾去看這個地方的待床數或候診數？"],["劉司長越萍：我們還有掌握加護病房的空床數。"],["劉委員建國：你怎麼掌握嘛？"],["劉司長越萍：我們就是介接醫院的……"],["劉委員建國：你用哪一個系統掌握？"],["劉司長越萍：我們的緊急醫療管理系統。"],["劉委員建國：緊急醫療管理系統可以去掌握全國現在遇到這樣的疫情情況之下，哪一家醫院還有多少的空床數，哪一家醫院……"],["劉司長越萍：加護病房。"],["劉委員建國：只有加護病房嘛！ICU嘛！"],["劉司長越萍：對，加護病房。"],["劉委員建國：其他沒有嘛！"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：急診沒有嘛！一般病床沒有嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：候診病人有啊！"],["劉委員建國：候診病人是候診病人的人數嘛！"],["劉司長越萍：還有等候病……"],["邱部長泰源：不是，候床的啦！"],["劉司長越萍：候床的人，就是說我們掌握的除了等候的人數，就是還沒被看的嘛！然後第二個是已經看完以後在留觀的人數，還有就是留觀確定要住院，大概這幾個是我們會持續掌握的人數。"],["劉委員建國：沒有，蘇召委也是內行的，你講的要讓他聽得下去哦！你講的我是聽得似懂非懂。","我再請教一點，COVID-19的時候你們是怎麼掌握的？你們用什麼系統去掌握？COVID-19就是衛福部成立一個指揮中心，我知道哪一家醫院有ICU，我知道哪一家醫院有多少空床率，我知道哪一家醫院可以讓我去做調配，對不對？那你是用哪一個系統？"],["劉司長越萍：也是緊急醫療管理系統。"],["劉委員建國：緊急醫療管理系統，不對吧！COVID-19爆發的時候，衛福部不是有建置一個叫做全國負壓病房的管理系統？當時是為了掌握負壓病房的空床率，請139家隔離醫院每日至結核病追蹤管理系統通報負壓隔離病床的收治情形，對不對？讓指揮中心能夠掌握全國負壓病房的即時動態，難道不是這樣嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：那一個是……"],["劉委員建國：是不是啦？"],["劉司長越萍：這邊在講的是負壓隔離病房。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！這個負壓隔離病房是用這樣在處理，對不對？"],["劉司長越萍：對，然後它要人工通報，可是我們這邊是直接接醫院的住院管理系統，所以是直接自動通報，所以我們……"],["劉委員建國：直接接收醫院的住院系統。"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：所以你就可以即時去掌握這家醫院的ICU空床率、空床數。"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：召委已經在嘆氣了。"],["主席：對啊！就是在說這個。"],["劉委員建國：你說對？你確定他說得對？"],["主席：有這個系統。"],["劉委員建國：有這個系統，這個系統有在用嗎？可以用嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然有啊！"],["劉司長越萍：有，可以。"],["劉委員建國：我覺得有問題吧！部長，你要不要去瞭解得更清楚？他現在跟我講，我等一下就test哦！"],["邱部長泰源：每天不管是長官或我們自己內部都有掌握到，譬如說11點跟下午3點的狀況。"],["劉委員建國：不是，部長你來看，COVID-19爆發的時候你們是用什麼？你們是用這個全國負壓病房的管理系統，然後請139家隔離醫院每日至結核病追蹤管理系統通報欸！"],["邱部長泰源：這個是人工的，這個目前是自動的。"],["劉司長越萍：這個在講的是傳染病防治，所以它是139家醫院。我們全國的急救責任醫院是205家，所以急救責任醫院的數目遠比隔離醫院來得多，然後因為大家人工通報會增加人工的負荷，所以我們這邊的緊急醫療管理系統是直接介接，反而可以減少人力，以上。真的，我們的系統是可以確認。"],["劉委員建國：不是，你現在可以跟部長講說全國現在哪一家醫院，就是205家嘛！對不對？"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：現在這幾家醫院哪邊有空床。"],["劉司長越萍：對，ICU加護病房。"],["劉委員建國：就叫ICU嘛！"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["邱部長泰源：還有候床的人數、候診的人數，還有ICU……"],["劉委員建國：候床跟候診的人數不一樣，候診不一定要去候床。"],["邱部長泰源：對，候診就是說還沒有看到的。"],["劉委員建國：是嘛！他看了之後不一定要去病床。"],["邱部長泰源：候床是等著要住院的。"],["劉委員建國：是。"],["邱部長泰源：另外就是ICU，那個也很重要，ICU的空床現在的狀況。"],["劉委員建國：不是，你有辦法去掌握等著要住院的人，不代表你有辦法去掌握你的空病房啊！"],["邱部長泰源：你說上面有多少病房，那是另外一個體系。"],["劉委員建國：沒關係，我想現在已經是AI的時代了，「行動創新AI內閣」，如果連這樣的系統都建置得很奇怪，如果說今天COVID-19的時候還要去借CDC所謂的結核病追蹤管理系統，那我就覺得到現在沒有把這個東西建置起來，衛福部有愧對國人，這是第一件事情。","第二件事情，分級醫療，我跟部長講，部長特別重視分級醫療，但是分級醫療不處理妥當的話，我們下次開會還是會再討論到分級醫療。我講一個很簡單的數字就好，這個我都有特別提供出來，數字應該也跟你們一樣，你從這裡可以看到醫學中心看診率，106年看診率是10.65%，113年是再往上，然後112年全國轉診數，上轉的數額高達99萬9,220件，下轉的只有十萬八千多件，等於是1比9啦！如果要說得比較嚴重是1比10，因為是九十九萬多，就是說從下面要轉上去的，上轉數跟下轉數就是不符合比例，是1比10嘛！這個情況一直沒有改善過啊！所以我才說你們的分級醫療在這個地方，就連衛福部都沒有在分級了，你如何去交代這些大醫院、小醫院跟你在做分級醫療？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這個病人比如說已經到臺大醫院，你要他到中興醫院去住院，我們是要費盡多少苦心跟他說，你到中興醫院也可以得到很好的照顧，還有那一邊的總醫師都會來看。所以第一個，應該是先讓民眾知道他的問題到哪邊看是最適合的，我剛剛有報告，如果他的身體有任何不舒服，我們希望他旁邊有社區診所，有家庭醫師先跟他過濾，他自然就會說你就直接去中興醫院住院就好了，不用去臺大，去臺大你要等很久，那邊也沒有病床等等，我相信這個才是真的分級醫療啦！"],["劉委員建國：沒有，部長，你說的是一個樣態啦！有這個樣態，這也是事實，對不對？有的已經進到醫院了，你叫他再去哪裡他也不要，這個我們知道，這個很清楚。但是我現在是要跟你說，你一般診所如果要上轉去大醫院，實際上，醫生在開轉診單都會說得很清楚，診所醫生會跟他說你去臺大找什麼人，你去找哪一位醫生，很簡單就能解決，但是他來大醫院的，事實上他不必到大醫院來救治、醫治，他可以轉去一般診所嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：也是可以啊！"],["劉委員建國：對，那這個怎麼處理？"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然是有鼓勵……"],["劉委員建國：有沒有像上轉這樣在處理？"],["邱部長泰源：有鼓勵的措施啊！如果他轉下去，我們一個也給他幾百塊的下轉費用，所以這幾年來也一直在鼓勵，這個我是確定知道的啦！因為我們很鼓勵他慢性病就儘量轉回社區去拿藥，去那邊看診就好了。"],["劉委員建國：對，那在大型醫院的醫師有跟他講去哪家診所嗎？轉到哪家診所去嗎？有嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：其實現在也都有社區醫療群的制度。"],["劉委員建國：是沒有錯啦！"],["邱部長泰源：所以大概臺大醫院我會……"],["劉委員建國：我們上轉要到哪家醫院會很明確啦！我們下轉要到其他診所……"],["邱部長泰源：下轉的醫院有很多，它的轄下可能有100家診所，譬如說臺大醫院的社區醫療群有5個，每一個大概有10個診所。"],["劉委員建國：沒關係啦！部長，時間的關係，我不要讓召委為難，因為我自己可以來當主席，你能夠給我們一個數字做參考嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：你說下轉下來？"],["劉委員建國：下轉的情況為什麼會這麼低，然後你們的檢討是在什麼地方。"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題，如果那麼低我們怎麼樣來改善。"],["劉委員建國：對，一個星期可以給我們嘛？"],["邱部長泰源：好，健保署……"],["劉委員建國：可以啦？好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，感謝，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員，謝謝部長。","王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在。","羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","羅智強","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","劉建國","陳培瑜","楊曜","王義川"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}