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國會的議員在開議前 開議中要到中國去聽命 領旨然後回來做進行顛覆政府的工作這不嚇人嗎?所以我們要對這種滲透的行為我們要有積極有效的反制所以反滲透是我們現階段很重要的工作所以喔 院長我現在要跟您提的就是說"},{"start":262.622,"end":289.842,"text":"如果昨天賴總統的這一個恢復軍事審判針對軍人的職責不涉及一般的治安犯罪我是大力支持而我認為國防部在軍審法的這些相關法令的配套上面甚至會不會有國安法庭的相關的配套上面應該要加速去進行賴部長您同意我的看法嗎"},{"start":292.077,"end":311.582,"text":"跟委員報告,我想就剛剛講的就是說,飛沪軍事審判它的範圍就是現役軍人,軍人職務上的犯罪這一塊,也就是屬於陸海空軍刑法第二篇相關的這些犯罪,所以不涉及"},{"start":312.282,"end":335.833,"text":"有關於他一般的刑事案件也不涉以非現役軍人的部分所以這個沒有扯到什麼所謂的軍中人權的問題我們談的是他涉及了國家安全妨礙了國家安全的部分我覺得這個在你們的軍事法庭或者是這些國安法庭的設計上面我不知道未來你們會不會有所謂的國安法庭"},{"start":336.933,"end":356.002,"text":"但是在你的這個軍審法恢復的時候我認為相關的配套措施國防部是不是要盡速研議對我們會來盡速研議過去被人詬病的這些相關有一些不符合憲法意旨的部分我們都會來進行大幅的一個檢討修正那主要當然就是說"},{"start":356.946,"end":371.823,"text":"因為這些還是有涉及一些軍事專業的一個專業性應該是這樣講所以涉及到軍事專業性所以我們會來檢討就是說像這些要從事軍閥審判的這些審判人員"},{"start":373.224,"end":390.357,"text":"他可能要具有一定的部隊的實務的經驗那麼他透過多元徵選的管道那拔卓之後給他一定的身份保障之後來確保他的獨立性之後那我們來從事相關的這樣的一個審判一方面能夠兼顧這個人權同時能夠嚴肅軍紀這是我們現在努力的方向"},{"start":394.5,"end":416.107,"text":"我想這個部分我是全力的支持那我也希望國防部能夠加速的來進行對於人權的保障固然這是非常的重要但是對於國家安全的維護會是在我們這個階段裡頭非常非常重要的一項工作這個我也要請國防部來多加進行"},{"start":418.606,"end":437.664,"text":"剛剛部長說得非常清楚 重新啟動的軍事審判 針對特定對象他裡面的特定的軍事犯罪行為 跟過去的軍事審判是截然不同的我們有一句話說 一樣不一樣的事這件事不一樣又不一樣的事所以剛才有人就是偷換概念嘛"},{"start":438.385,"end":465.375,"text":"他就跟你講說軍中人權怎樣怎樣怎樣說說民進黨現在這個換了位子換了腦袋完全不顧軍中人權但是我們現在恢復的軍事審判是針對特定的對象特定的議題不涉及一般的治安犯罪嘛我覺得這個部分也要對外來說明清楚喔那這個台灣的國家安全重不重要當然非常重要啊"},{"start":466.67,"end":488.258,"text":"台灣的人民藉由宗教的交流去到中國你覺得沒有政治嗎如果沒有政治為什麼一貫道的信徒在那裡會被抓起來你覺得一般的商業交流沒有政治嗎如果沒有政治的話為什麼跟著國民黨立法院的總召去到香港也會被抓起來人在哪裡還不知道還救不回來"},{"start":489.588,"end":512.85,"text":"你覺得一般的學生的參訪沒有政治嗎如果沒有政治的話為什麼那些學生來到台灣會講中國台北你覺得一般的藝人來到中國會沒有政治嗎昨天楊子瓊女士到101參加一個珠寶展她本來講說很開心來到這個國家回去之後她的臉書她的IG寫的是中國台北"},{"start":513.902,"end":538.397,"text":"沒有政治嗎政治無所不在啊滲透無所不在啊破壞無所不在啊所以我覺得政府現在真的是應該硬起來啊針對境外敵對勢力我百分之百支持政府這樣做所以我也要請國防部陸委會真的要強硬起來喔好不好好 那我接下來要請問第二個議題喔這個兩位可以請回喔院長"},{"start":543.732,"end":560.198,"text":"我記得去年6月14號問您的時候我們談的是復一案當時是講國會擴權你說你相信人類有高尚的心靈立委是正義的化身所以復一會過不過從去年到現在您已經連五敗復一一直不會過那復一不過呢國會擴權可能跟民生可能他們還不覺得什麼"},{"start":571.603,"end":597.514,"text":"總預算沒過應該怎麼辦呢過去我們的賴總統一直講他要一憲一法如果一憲一法的話這個總預算沒過十天之內就要公佈實施很顯然這個總預算你們是沒有辦法做的我想請教行政院的救濟管道是什麼現在我們確實遇到相當大的困難比如說監察院他幾乎是完全被刪除的跟凍結的"},{"start":599.762,"end":603.824,"text":"現在連他們的調查費 他們都很難支應他們連水電費都付不出來 還欠費喔我知道啊 其實有一些部會是被刪過頭了嘛被刪過頭那個更多嘛 完全是刪到複數嘛業務費100%被刪掉 或者是被刪掉99% 大有部會所在但是院長我要請教你 你接下來的救濟管道是什麼"},{"start":624.696,"end":651.718,"text":"你如果要申請釋憲依照現在的憲訴法規定參與評議的要多過十個大法官違憲宣告要多於九個大法官但是現在很珠息我們只有八個大法官這樣要怎麼處理你要走這條路看起來也走不通啊如果要等總統重新提名然後等這個立法院又通過人事同意權我不知道要等多久那這段時間怎麼辦"},{"start":654.915,"end":674.984,"text":"這個依照憲法的規定跟精神 我們當然還有憲政的救濟啦對啦 我剛剛跟你講的就是憲政的救濟嘛依照過去的案例 91年的案例是經由兩院繼續的協商但是我不曉得現在這種協商的基礎是否存在以及協商後續的執行是否可能"},{"start":676.121,"end":703.319,"text":"我不知道你們要怎麼協商啦派誰來協商 誰能夠主持協商 誰說了算過去的行政立法兩院是兩院的院長坐下來協商院長 立法院的院長有絕對的主導權可是我不知道現在國民黨看這個立法院院長沒有啊看他沒有啊院長都要來協商 人家不要理他"},{"start":704.741,"end":724.647,"text":"那你要怎麼協商那你接下來你會面臨到的這些比如說我剛剛講的預算三過頭你們預算要怎麼執行你的空窗期現在預算要怎麼執行我不知道你接下來要怎麼辦那你們我現在要後面要講到的是跟地方的補助是有相關的"},{"start":725.797,"end":739.86,"text":"對不對中央的部會沒有辦法執行地方的建設要不要繼續做地方的建設要不要繼續做當然要繼續做啊台中市長第一個出來喊他說不管復議過不過都不應該煽動地方的補助款"},{"start":740.896,"end":760.096,"text":"好啦 如果他這麼在意地方的補助款他台中有這麼多的子弟兵 為什麼不支持復議案呢為什麼不支持地方的建設呢那為什麼讓我們這一些支持總預算的支持要大幅增加台灣建設的立法委員來擔這個後果呢院長你可以告訴我為什麼嗎 我不太懂欸"},{"start":765.293,"end":780.542,"text":"所以你們的那個三個排除條件喔我建議你再增加一個排除條件就是停總預算的立委他的縣市不應該被你們排除建設經費您可以同意我嗎"},{"start":784.724,"end":810.58,"text":"停總預算的立委對總預算的支持的委員還是相當多數我覺得他們很著重的是一方面要國家的發展一方面要地方的建設同時要中央地方財政均衡合理所以我們對對方的補助對方的任何的發展我們會朝健康的方向去想你講的這個很委婉你會朝健康的方向去做"},{"start":813.121,"end":834.793,"text":"我就直接問你高雄啦高雄的巴西立委拼得要死我們好不容易從過去小英總統的時代從蘇貞昌院長或者是賴清德當行政院長的那個一路下來給高雄這麼多的建設給高雄這麼多可以往前邁進一大步的機會"},{"start":837.375,"end":849.333,"text":"財化把 富翼輸掉了高雄竟然是最大的輸家高雄竟然是最大的輸家喔我看到這個財化把我實在是頭都昏掉了花蓮增加228%"},{"start":853.223,"end":875.777,"text":"我不是說花蓮不值得但是花蓮增加這麼多結果高雄是最少的高雄只有增加49%所有的部會裡面它是增加最少的那高雄需不需要建設高雄當然需要大建設啊甚至我們現在都在跟您談未來高雄機場的運量很快到2045年就會達到飽和"},{"start":880.043,"end":907.19,"text":"包括陳市長包括我本席包括幾位的立委我們都一直在大力疾呼行政院應該要開始開啟高雄新機場的規劃這是一個往前看20年的重大建設這是一個讓高雄再起飛讓高雄更好的一個重大的轉折點可是因為這樣的才化把因為這樣的一個補助案"},{"start":910.836,"end":934.805,"text":"富裕沒通過你是扼殺了地方的大幅發展院長您要怎麼做所以支持中央有更健全財政能力的委員當然會得到中央更多的支持那如果把錢都放下到地方去這樣不合理的規劃之下未來地方就由地方所以高雄的巴西對行政院是"},{"start":944.653,"end":945.662,"text":"好 謝謝邱毅英委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":868,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（11時3分）謝謝主席，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：院長早。剛剛前一位王育敏委員質詢的最後一句話，我不曉得您有沒有聽清楚，他說的是，請您把人民的利益擺在最前面！"],["卓院長榮泰：他很了解我。"],["邱委員議瑩：我今天要問你的是，當這些少數人民利益跟國家利益衝突的時候，哪一個重要、哪一個要放在前面？昨天賴總統的談話說中國是境外敵對勢力，所以他要恢復軍事審判因應滲透。院長，這一句話對嗎？有哪裡說錯了嗎？我請您解釋一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為完全沒有錯，中國是境外敵對勢力，中國當然是境外，他每天飛機、軍艦來臺灣繞，不時在臺灣周遭做不同狀況的演習，定時、不定時，而且他的海警船也不時騷擾我們的漁船，甚至他很多的權宜輪也破壞我們的海纜，難道我們會把他定義為一個對我們友善或是一般的對象嗎？所以以我們來看，他是有相當的敵意。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，如果面對這樣一個境外敵對的勢力，每天不只利用各種方式階段來文攻武嚇，您剛剛講到的是武嚇的部分，文攻的部分我待會再繼續跟您討論。為什麼賴總統說要恢復軍事審判？我想這個數字行政院應該掌握得很清楚，中國正在滲透我們的國軍，2024年共諜案起訴的對象有66%是軍人，被滲透的幾乎都是軍人，但是依照現行的法令，這一些叛國的、出賣國家安全利益的，判刑其實都相對非常的輕微，院長同意我的看法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他對我們的民間也透過各種關係來做有利於自己的部分。"],["邱委員議瑩：是嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：更嚴重的是對軍中的人士，我們的現役軍人。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以對於現役軍人或者是退役軍人採取不斷滲透的手段。小的時候、我們上學的時候，都要背一句話叫做保密防諜，人人有責。"],["卓院長榮泰：就在你身邊。"],["邱委員議瑩：小心匪諜就在你身邊。我現在覺得匪諜無所不在！共諜無所不在！剛剛講的是武嚇，文攻的部分則透過宗教宮廟的交流、透過村里長的交流、透過文化藝術的交流、透過媒體的滲透，甚至我都懷疑透過立法院國會議員在這裡進行文攻武嚇、在這裡進行滲透！這不恐怖嗎？這不嚇人嗎？就有委員、國會的議員在開議前、開議中要到中國去聽命領旨，然後回來進行顛覆政府的工作，這不嚇人嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以對於這種滲透的行為，我們要有積極有效的反制，所以反滲透是我們現階段很重要的工作。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以院長，我現在要跟您提的是，如果昨天賴總統這一個恢復軍事審判只針對軍人的職責，不涉及一般的治安犯罪，我是大力支持，而我認為國防部在軍審法這些相關法令的配套上面，甚至在國安法庭的相關配套上面，應該要加速去進行，顧部長同意我的看法嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想就剛剛講的，恢復軍事審判的範圍就是限於現役軍人犯軍人職務上的犯罪這一塊，也就是屬於陸海空軍刑法第二編相關的這些犯罪。"],["邱委員議瑩：是。"],["顧部長立雄：所以不涉及有關他一般的刑事案件。"],["邱委員議瑩：一般的治安犯罪。"],["顧部長立雄：也不涉及非現役軍人的部分。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以這個沒有扯到什麼所謂軍中人權的問題，我們談的是他涉及了國家安全、妨礙了國家安全的部分，我覺得這個在你們的軍事法庭或者是這些國安法庭的設計上面，我不知道未來你們會不會有所謂的國安法庭，但是在這個軍審法恢復的時候，相關的配套措施國防部是不是要儘速研議？"],["顧部長立雄：對，我們會來儘速研議，過去被人詬病的、有一些不符合憲法意旨的部分，我們都會來進行大幅的檢討修正。主要是因為這些還是有涉及一些軍事的專業性，因為涉及軍事專業性，所以我們會來檢討像這些要從事軍法審判的審判人員，他可能要具有一定的部隊實務經驗，透過多元甄選的管道拔擢之後，給他一定的身分保障，確保他的獨立性之後，再來從事相關的審判，一方面能夠兼顧人權，同時能夠嚴肅軍紀，這是我們現在努力的方向。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，這個部分我是全力支持，我也希望國防部能夠加速進行，對於人權的保障固然非常重要，但是對於國家安全的維護，會是在這個階段裡頭非常非常重要的一項工作，這我也要請國防部多加進行。"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們儘速來研議。"],["卓院長榮泰：也跟委員報告，剛剛部長說得非常清楚，重新啟動的軍事審判，針對特定對象、特定的軍事犯罪行為，跟過去的軍事審判是截然不同的，有一句話是「同款不同師傅」，而這件是「不同款又不同師傅」。"],["邱委員議瑩：是嘛！所以剛才有人就是偷換概念，他就跟你講說軍中人權怎樣、怎樣，說民進黨現在換了位置就換了腦袋，完全不顧軍中人權，但是我們現在恢復的軍事審判是針對特定的對象、特定的議題，不涉及一般的治安犯罪，我覺得這個部分也要對外說明清楚。臺灣的國家安全重不重要？當然非常重要啊！臺灣的人民藉由宗教交流去到中國，你覺得沒有政治嗎？如果沒有政治，為什麼一貫道的信徒在那裡會被抓起來？你覺得一般的商業交流沒有政治嗎？如果沒有政治的話，為什麼跟著國民黨立法院的總召去到香港也會被抓起來？人在哪裡還不知道，還救不回來！你覺得一般學生的參訪沒有政治嗎？如果沒有政治的話，為什麼那些學生來到臺灣會講「中國台北」？你覺得一般的藝人來到中國會沒有政治嗎？昨天楊紫瓊女士到101參加一個珠寶展，他本來講說很開心來到這個國家，回去之後，他的臉書、他的IG寫的是「中國台北」，沒有政治嗎？政治無所不在啊！滲透無所不在啊！破壞無所不在啊！所以我覺得政府現在真的是應該硬起來啊！針對境外敵對勢力，我百分之百支持政府這樣做，所以我也要請國防部、陸委會真的要強硬起來，好不好？","我接下來要請問第二個議題。院長，我記得去年6月14號問您的時候，我們談的是覆議案，當時是講國會擴權，你說你相信人類有高尚的心靈、立委是正義的化身，所以覆議會過。不過從去年到現在，您已經連五敗，覆議一直不會過。覆議不過，國會擴權跟民生可能他們還不覺得有什麼；總預算沒過，應該怎麼辦呢？過去賴總統一直講他要依憲依法，如果依憲依法的話，這個總預算沒過，10天之內就要公布實施，很顯然這個總預算你們是沒有辦法做的。我想請教行政院的救濟管道是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在我們確實遇到相當大的困難，比如監察院的預算幾乎是完全被刪除跟凍結的，現在他們連調查費都很難支應，連水電費都付不出來，還欠費喔！"],["邱委員議瑩：我知道啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：欠費可能要收到停……"],["邱委員議瑩：其實有一些部會是被刪過頭了嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：刪過頭那個是……"],["邱委員議瑩：刪過頭是更多嘛，完全是刪到負數；業務費百分之百被刪掉，或者是被刪掉百分之九十九的部會所在多有。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，像外交部、內政部。"],["邱委員議瑩：但是院長，我要請教你的是，你接下來的救濟管道是什麼？你如果要聲請釋憲，依照現在的憲訴法規定，參與評議的要多過10個大法官，違憲宣告要多於9個大法官，但是現在只有8個大法官，這樣要怎麼處理？你要走這一條路，看起來也走不通啊！如果要等總統重新提名，然後等立法院通過人事同意權，我不知道要等多久，那這段時間怎麼辦？你可不可以告訴我這段時間怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照憲法的規定跟精神，我們當然還有憲政的救濟啦！"],["邱委員議瑩：對啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：但如果……"],["邱委員議瑩：我剛剛跟你講的就是憲政的救濟嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：依照過去91年的案例，是經由兩院繼續協商，但是我不曉得現在這種協商的基礎是否存在，以及協商後續的執行是否可能。"],["邱委員議瑩：我不知道你們要怎麼協商啦！派誰來協商、誰能夠主持協商、誰說了算？過去的行政、立法兩院是兩院的院長坐下來協商，立法院的院長有絕對的主導權。可是我不知道現在國民黨是否看扁這個立法院院長，看扁他啊！院長說要來協商，人家不理他，那你要怎麼協商？接下來你會面臨到的這些，比如說我剛剛講的預算刪過頭，你們預算要怎麼執行？你的空窗期現在預算要怎麼執行？我不知道你接下來要怎麼辦。","我後面要講到的是跟地方的補助有相關的，中央的部會沒有辦法執行，地方的建設要不要繼續做？當然要繼續做啊！臺中市長第一個出來喊說，不管覆議過不過，都不應該刪凍地方的補助款。如果他這麼在意地方的補助款，他臺中有這麼多的子弟兵，為什麼不支持覆議案呢？為什麼不支持地方的建設呢？為什麼讓我們這一些支持總預算的、支持要大幅增加臺灣建設的立法委員來擔這個後果呢？院長，你可以告訴我為什麼嗎？我不太懂耶。所以你們的那三個排除條件，我建議你再增加一個排除條件，就是挺總預算的立委，他的縣市不應該被你們排除建設經費，您可以同意我嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：挺總預算的立委，我想在立法……"],["邱委員議瑩：挺總預算的立委。"],["卓院長榮泰：對總預算支持的委員還是相當多數，我覺得他們很著重的是，一方面要國家發展，一方面要地方建設，同時要中央、地方財政均衡合理，所以我們對地方的補助、地方的任何發展會朝健康的方向去想，但是如果……"],["邱委員議瑩：你講得很委婉，你會朝健康的方向去做。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是如果……"],["邱委員議瑩：好，那我就直接問你高雄啦，高雄的8席立委拼得要死，我們好不容易從過去小英總統的時代，從蘇貞昌院長或者是從賴清德當行政院長一路下來，給高雄這麼多的建設，給高雄這麼多可以往前邁進一大步的機會。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我最後……"],["邱委員議瑩：財劃法覆議輸掉了，高雄竟然是最大的輸家。高雄竟然是最大的輸家喔！我看到這個財劃法實在是頭都昏了，花蓮增加228%，我不是說花蓮不值得，但是花蓮增加這麼多，結果高雄是最少的，高雄只有增加49%，所有的部分裡面，它是增加最少的。高雄需不需要建設？高雄當然需要大建設啊！甚至我們現在都在跟您談，未來高雄機場的運量，很快到了2045年就會達到飽和，包括陳市長、包括本席、包括幾位立委，我們都一直在大力疾呼，行政院應該要開始開啟高雄新機場的規劃，這是一個往前看20年的重大建設，這是讓高雄再起飛，讓高雄更好的一個重大的轉折點，可是因為這樣的財劃法、因為這樣的一個補助案覆議沒通過而扼殺了地方的大幅發展啊！院長，您要怎麼做？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以支持中央有更健全財政能力的委員，當然會得到中央更多的支持，如果把錢都下放到地方去，在這樣不合理的規劃之下，未來地方就由地方……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以高雄的8席對行政院是大力支持，我覺得高雄的建設一毛都不能少，院長，答應我吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會合理地來做補助的規劃，謝謝。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱議瑩委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽的是來自於臺北護理健康大學的同學們，未來的棟梁，歡迎你們，掌聲歡迎！在議場右邊是來自臺中市東區的所有好朋友，熱情歡迎大家！","接下來我們請陳昭姿委員質詢，賴瑞隆委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":28,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-14"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1142601_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}