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感謝主席 本席邀請我們工程會陳主委好 陳主委委員長主委好 各位 早上大概有有些委員也在問你那個預算被凍結的事情"},{"start":28.767,"end":50.803,"text":"現在我查一下我們工程會主要的預算都是被凍結案然後他當時的凍結的條件是你要凍資30%業務費你要花掉30%你才能送解凍案對不對那剛有人說我們工程會為什麼不先送解凍"},{"start":52.031,"end":76.438,"text":"看起來好像你不能送按照這個質疑上按照大院的主決議審查預算的主決議是動資超過30%然後就要才可以來申請解凍但是解凍是在院會我知道他這個當時的審議結果是要送院會才能解凍"},{"start":77.981,"end":97.452,"text":"我講不要說我們交委會有很多都是第一屆的立委就算資深的立委我在立法院十幾年了我從來沒有看過預算解凍要送院會送院會是要解凍程序上前第一個你要花掉30%你才能送解凍案你什麼時候可以花掉30%"},{"start":101.019,"end":116.103,"text":"你可以拿捏嗎就是30%以後我們也會尊重大院的決議我們一定會提出提出就是說第一個程序上我們還不清楚大院要怎麼處理院會同意的這個解凍的程序第二個"},{"start":117.823,"end":141.222,"text":"會不會同意使用事實上是不知道因為如果院會不像貴委員會一樣那麼好溝通那我們在委員會裡面因為幾個會期都在一起比較了解我們的業務但大院那邊院會來惡毒處理解凍案是沒有這種經驗所以不知道程序上要花多久根本沒有發生過這種事情"},{"start":142.708,"end":171.302,"text":"那你現在照理講預算案其實就是法律案啦程序上就算解凍第一個齁時間你不能現在就馬上送啦對不對所以工程會不能送因為你必須要業務費動資30%以後你才能送那程序上你是應該一樣要送到委員會來委員會要先審過嘛但是審過不算就解凍齁大概幾乎等於法案的一睹"},{"start":173.886,"end":180.438,"text":"就一讀以後送到委員會來一樣委員會審完然後再送院會那你這個解凍案是算二讀嗎"},{"start":182.694,"end":204.623,"text":"你這個解凍案應該就不是報告案對 按照大院的決議 院會那應該是二讀照在野黨的那個 看起來那個精神就是審議案對 就是審議案那你審議案 院會要給你解凍院會必須要院長專門召開一個預算的解凍 解凍院會"},{"start":206.741,"end":228.802,"text":"因為你不能自己去嘛因為行政院長要因為議長還可以讓院長才能帶部會首長到院會去啦對就是部長是不能在院會啦你要議長幫你找嘛應該是行政院長才有如果能夠排到讓你們各部會去解凍那個大概就是曹偉先生啦因為議長要擺嘛"},{"start":232.694,"end":259.091,"text":"那你知道各部會有多少需要到院會去解凍的嗎不少工程會是一但還有其他部會還有你要看院會的那個時程啦你有沒有時間排啦因為你現在是總諮詢嘛總諮詢大概到4月下旬才會結束啦結束以後我們還有一些法案"},{"start":260.951,"end":285.671,"text":"意思是說 除非啦 朝野協商啦大家能夠同意啦 預算解凍案優先啦這個大概要看朝野的氣氛啦他如果沒跟你排 你是不是要解凍你連解凍的機會也沒有 對不對而且看起來啊 那個是必須要以審議案的狀況進行那就是要排行政院長到會啦"},{"start":287.498,"end":303.663,"text":"行政省到院會來率領這些部會就解凍案來讓立法院的院會進行審議而且要審議通過喔對我們的理解是這樣子其實這種結論我覺得這是根本亂來反其道而行因為你都剝削了我們委員會審查的權利"},{"start":314.52,"end":340.889,"text":"你預算凍結刪除其實最重要是委員會我們整個會期每天要報告或諮詢為什麼委員會中心要出來大家要強調這一點如果彭委員會的立委相較上一定比較熟悉了解業務是不是這樣所以你要刪要凍其實應該是委員會相對的你要解凍也一樣在委員會"},{"start":342.372,"end":346.813,"text":"所以能不能同意解凍案應該是委員會的權利嘛他有提議院會對不對我們的副院長也坐在下面嘛我從來沒碰過預算解凍案送院會去決定的那委員會要怎麼做如果你解凍案送到我們委員會來我們審查的結論假設我們都同意解凍也沒有用啦"},{"start":371.138,"end":380.288,"text":"因為委員會沒有權力決定嘛 還要送院會去做最後的一個裁決嘛這樣委員會我們就心煩肚子餓了我們就沒有權力決定嘛你院會一百多個立委 大家會了解你工程會意義上幹什麼嗎一定是本委員會的委員會才知道嘛"},{"start":392.634,"end":418.688,"text":"所以這個絕對啊 第一個我覺得時程上你要先花掉30%你才能送30%沒花 花不夠 你也不能上解凍案 對不對就是你上解凍案 你也要拜託我們召委你我召委 這要給他善意 你就要拜託拜託召委 趕快給我們擺解凍案的委員會審查我們如果審查了 也不遵守 因為你要再送院會"},{"start":419.648,"end":447.97,"text":"那還要看院會 當然要朝野生生看那時候的氣氛啦拜託韓院長 看什麼時候可以把我們的解凍案排進去所以 這個會不會影響業務 我看這這要到五月五月六月了那當然會影響業務嘛五月底就馬上又要休會啦然後又要休會了 那時候 而且這當中之間要審查的法律案不知道有多少啦"},{"start":449.226,"end":467.295,"text":"對不對 你總不能把任何時間全部都浪費在解凍案這根本就浪費時間嘛 你應該是讓委員會來決定嘛那就你的報告啦 就我們主委的報告啦你現在預算這些被凍結大概有幾項事項會受到影響嘛"},{"start":468.379,"end":481.787,"text":"你自己說的 就是工程的一些裁定像你去年 我看你的報告裡面 我們來看一下爭議採購案件有786件你開會有開了1034個會議 調解會議47次就是標不出去的流標專案會議有8次 有8個案"},{"start":493.214,"end":505.345,"text":"另外還有採購諸行會六個案你這些大概都是必須要你業務你必須要做這是你的本業你的專業啦每個月大概受以八十件禮業爭議調解你現在要怎麼開業務會嘛要怎麼開業務會啊"},{"start":509.269,"end":526.467,"text":"你說會不會影響 其實影響到的是一些廠商啦 民間廠商跟業主就是公部門有糾紛的啦這大部分都在這啦 生涯不是人民的權利嘛所以我們也希望啦 就這個部分啦 能夠"},{"start":529.704,"end":554.921,"text":"大家能夠有一個可以解決了那以目前的草原分委來看喔我看你要慢慢等啦我也不知道什麼時候可以才可以排到你們的所謂預算案可以送到院會去解凍喔沒有你要先花掉30%咧那你們要趕快開開啊為了救後面的70%那前面30%趕快亂花啊不然你怎麼知道你當時可以花掉30%是不是這樣"},{"start":558.871,"end":564.607,"text":"那就你目前政協會影響的這種 這種你的業務啊就你所報告的啦 那你怎麼處理"},{"start":568.072,"end":592.247,"text":"金職講的部分我們希望能夠比較明確能夠盡速來解凍啦這個才能夠辦法著手進行啦那其他重大公件的查核啦管控啦 督導啦那我們就還是按照過去的技師證照 核發技師證照因為凍結一半嘛 只能用一半的錢嘛那如果說一半用完了大概就停擺了啦"},{"start":592.847,"end":607.925,"text":"但是金字獎比較特殊金字獎不能說做到哪裡付到哪裡它就是整個案而且牽涉到那麼多廠商要報名所以是要很明確說今年有這個錢要辦我們辦這個金字獎不能說要等到大院同意了之後"},{"start":608.305,"end":635.454,"text":"我們再來複習 廠商為什麼要爭取金職獎 爭取到對他們有什麼好處 因為它是一個品質的指標嘛 保證 那也是他們廠商的榮譽啦那對他們來講 得到金職獎呢 那連續幾年之後 那麼他這個將來在承攬其他工程啦 評選的時候就會加分 保固金啊 理業等等都可以減免 對廠商來講是一個無上的榮耀好 謝謝主委喔 謝謝主席喔好 謝謝我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":435,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時59分）感謝主席，本席邀請工程會陳主委。"],["主席：好，陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["林委員俊憲：主委好。主委，早上大概有一些委員在問你預算被凍結的事情，我查一下工程會主要的預算都是被凍結案，當時凍結的條件是動支30%的業務費後，就是花掉30%後，才能送解凍案，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["林委員俊憲：剛剛有人問工程會為什麼不先送解凍案，按照字義上來看，好像你們還不能送，是不是？"],["陳主任委員金德：按照大院審查預算的主決議，是動支超過30%才可以申請解凍，但是解凍是由院會審議。"],["林委員俊憲：我知道，當時的審議結果是要送院會才能解凍，我想不要說我們交委會有很多委員都是第1屆立委，就算資深立委，我在立法院十幾年了，從來沒有看過預算解凍要送院會的，送院會是要怎麼解凍？程序上怎麼樣？第一，你要先花掉30%才能送解凍案，你什麼時候可以花掉30%，你知道嗎？可以拿捏嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：就是30%以後，我們會尊重大院的決議……"],["林委員俊憲：對啦！就是時程上啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：我們一定會提出，提出之後，第一，程序上我們還不清楚大院要怎麼處理院會同意解凍的程序。第二，會不會同意使用，事實上也不知道，因為院會不像貴委員會那麼好溝通，我們在委員會裡面，因為幾個會期都在一起，委員比較了解我們的業務，但大院那邊，由院會二讀處理解凍案是沒有這種經驗，所以不知道程序上要花多久。"],["林委員俊憲：根本沒有發生過這種事情，照理講，預算案其實就是法律案，如果要解凍，第一個，時間上不能馬上送，對不對？工程會必須動支業務費30%以後才能送。第二個，程序上應該一樣要送到委員會來，委員會要先審過，但是審過後不算就解凍，大概幾乎等於是法案一讀後送到委員會來一樣，委員會審完後再送院會，那這個解凍案是算二讀嗎？這個解凍案應該就不是報告案喔！"],["陳主任委員金德：對，按照大院的決議，到院會應該是二讀。"],["林委員俊憲：照在野黨的決議，看起來那個精神就是審議案啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：對，就審議。"],["林委員俊憲：好，如果是審議案，院會要解凍，必須要由院長專門召開一個預算的解凍院會喔！"],["陳主任委員金德：嗯。"],["林委員俊憲：因為你不能自己去嘛！"],["陳主任委員金德：行政院長要……"],["林委員俊憲：要院長才能帶部會首長到院會去。"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["林委員俊憲：部長是不能進去院會的，一定要院長帶隊。"],["陳主任委員金德：應該是行政院長才有……"],["林委員俊憲：如果能夠排到讓你們各部會去解凍，那大概就是朝野協商啦！就是院長要排嘛！你知道各部會有多少案子需要到院會去解凍的嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：呃！不少。"],["林委員俊憲：幾百案嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：工程會是其一，但其他部會還有。"],["林委員俊憲：你還要看院會的時程啦！有沒有時間排？現在是總質詢時間，總質詢大概到4月下旬才會結束，結束以後我們還有一些法案，也就是說，除非朝野協商，大家能夠同意預算解凍案優先，這個大概要看朝野的氣氛，他如果沒有排，你們要怎麼解凍？你們連解凍的機會也沒有，對不對？看起來必須要以審議案的狀況進行，就是要排行政院長率領各部會到院會來，就解凍案到立法院院會進行審議，而且還要審議通過喔！對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：對，我們的理解是這樣子。"],["林委員俊憲：如果審查沒有通過呢？其實這種結論我覺得根本是亂來，反其道而行，因為這樣就剝削了委員會審查的權利；預算凍結、刪除，其實最重要的是委員會，我們整個會期每天都在報告或質詢，為什麼大家要強調委員會中心制要出來？因為本委員會的委員相較上一定比較熟悉、了解業務，是不是這樣？"],["陳主任委員金德：是的。"],["林委員俊憲：所以要刪、要凍，其實應該是在委員會，相對的，要解凍也一樣在委員會，所以能不能同意解凍案，應該是委員會的權利，哪有拿到院會的！是不是這樣？我們的副院長也坐在下面，我從來都沒有碰過預算解凍案要送院會決定的，那我們委員會要做什麼？如果解凍案送到委員會來，假設審查的結論是我們都同意解凍，那也沒有用，因為委員會沒有權利決定，要送院會做最後的裁決，這樣委員會是在審什麼！我們就沒權利決定啊！院會有一百多個立委，大家會了解工程會的預算是幹什麼嗎？一定是本委員會委員比較知道，所以我覺得，第一，時程上你要先花掉30%預算才能送，30%花不夠，也不能送解凍案，對不對？第二，就算送解凍案，你也要拜託召委，林國成召委比較有善意，你要拜託召委趕快在委員會排解凍案審查，而即使我們審查之後也不算數，因為要再送院會，還要看當時朝野協商的氣氛，拜託韓院長看什麼時候可以把解凍案排進去，這樣會不會影響到你們的業務？我看可能要到5月、6月，當然會影響業務。"],["陳主任委員金德：5月底馬上又要休會。"],["林委員俊憲：然後又要休會了，而且這當中要審查的法律案不知道有多少啦！對不對？總不能把院會的時間全部都浪費在解凍案，這根本就浪費時間嘛！應該讓委員會來決定嘛！","就主委的報告，現在預算被凍結，大概有幾個事項會受到影響，你自己說的，就是工程的一些裁定，像你去年的報告裡提到爭議採購案件有786件，開會開了1,034個會議，調解會議47次，標不出去的流標專案會議有8案，另外還有採購諮詢會議6個案，這些大概都是你們必須要做的業務，這是你的本業、你的專業。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們每個月大概受理80件履約爭議調解……"],["林委員俊憲：這些都要花業務費，現在沒有業務費，你說會不會影響？其實影響到的是一些民間廠商跟業主，就是跟公部門有糾紛的大部分都在這裡，是不是這樣？那傷害的不是人民的權利嗎？所以我們希望就這個部分能有一個解決的方式，但以目前朝野氛圍來看，我看你要慢慢等啦！我也不知道什麼時候才可以排到你們的預算案送到院會解凍！喔！沒有，你要先花掉30%，那你們就趕快花一花，為了救後面的70%，前面30%趕快亂花，不然你怎麼知道什麼時候可以花掉30%？是不是這樣？好，就你目前所報告的，真正會影響的業務，你要怎麼處理？"],["陳主任委員金德：金質獎的部分，我們希望能夠比較明確的儘速解凍，這樣才有辦法著手進行，其他重大公建的查核、管控、督導，我們就還是按照過去的……"],["林委員俊憲：核發技師證照的部分呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：一樣，因為凍結一半，只能用一半的錢，如果這一半用完了，大概就停擺了，但是金質獎比較特殊，金質獎不能說做到哪裡付到哪裡，它就是整個案，而且牽涉到那麼多廠商要報名，所以要很明確的說今年有這個錢可以辦，我們辦金質獎不能說等到大院同意了之後，我們再來付錢……"],["林委員俊憲：廠商為什麼要爭取金質獎？爭取到對他們有什麼好處？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為它是一個品質的指標……"],["林委員俊憲：保證嘛！"],["陳主任委員金德：也是廠商的榮譽，對他們來講，得到金質獎，連續幾年之後，將來在承攬其他工程評選的時候就會加分，保固金、履約金等等都可以減免，對廠商來講，是一個無上的榮耀。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員。","現在請蔡其昌前副院長質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}