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陳主委主委早這個主委預算刪除凍結這麼嚴重"},{"start":24.048,"end":44,"text":"其實本席在質詢裡也有點辛苦啦因為涉及到預算的我都不問了啦你就沒錢我自己問一半是在問什麼所以如果我待會不小心還有問到跟預算有關係你就直接告訴本席說報告委員預算被動或者被刪所以沒辦法執行好"},{"start":48.703,"end":53.63,"text":"這個預算啦這個送院會解凍這個本席也沒有"},{"start":54.639,"end":80.214,"text":"印象中也很少聽到這樣子解凍就在委員會現在這個可能要請議事處再研議看看送院會解凍的程序到底是要不要交付委員會先審再回送給院會來審這個可能大院要去研究一下因為至少在我印象裡面好像送院會解凍這個"},{"start":82.523,"end":101.119,"text":"不知道,不管先回到我們的主題這個工程會,我的辦公室有問了一下最近大家都在做這個發包,都在做這個減項就做這個減項招標這個減項招標,都是因應著物價上漲"},{"start":108.817,"end":134.202,"text":"那因為中央政府要地方政府要經費不足嘛那經費不足的情況底下事情很重要又要做所以呢我們就把它做減相的發包那這個減相發包本來本席就覺得這個問題很大因為等於是我們錢還不一定夠但菜都先點了"},{"start":135.407,"end":159.902,"text":"那我們是預期反正一邊吃錢還會有人送過來餐廳所以我們就繼續吃那現在問題更嚴重的原因是因為我們原先帶來的錢又被刪除本來已經帶夠了但因為這個其他因素又把我們帶來餐廳要吃飯的錢又凍結又刪除所以這個減項發包的問題會越來越嚴重那"},{"start":165.779,"end":182.487,"text":"工程會這邊有提出這個減向發包這個主要還是因為大概有九成都是因為物價上漲這個沒有足夠的經費所以我們做這樣的一個調整那減向發包最後就會發現幾個問題譬如說這個台北中校橋"},{"start":191.349,"end":219.674,"text":"這個引橋拆除兩次流標那北市要檢向發包那這個檢向發包啊有沒有可能會出現這個有橋沒有路燈那像我們這個啊台中啊像大甲國中啊這個手球啊手球館它檢向發包的結果就是房子蓋好了裡面不可以打手球而且沒有門"},{"start":220.814,"end":248.387,"text":"沒有門 因為門當時檢像發包所以沒有門所以檢像發包它會產生我認為它會有一些問題譬如說報紙也看到醫院蓋但檢像發包所以醫院沒有防火門所以這個檢像發包的問題主委 這個的確是應該要認真工程會恐怕要認真來講否則以後這個案例會越來越多而且越來越荒謬"},{"start":249.704,"end":276.755,"text":"就不久之後我們就會看到這個本來檢向了那本來預期這個今年要補結果預算又被刪又被凍所以不能補不能補就會發現就會出現很多很荒謬的建築物或者很荒謬的案例我剛剛已經舉了幾個啦比如說我們手球場沒有門的啦譬如說可能蓋路橋沒路燈的啦譬如說醫院沒有防火門的啦"},{"start":277.795,"end":289.445,"text":"那我相信會越來越多所以這個要不要工程會要不要有一個統一性的指示對於檢像發包到底要怎麼來規範才不會出現這種亂象"},{"start":294.415,"end":309.473,"text":"剪相發包那當然也是目前政府採購法裡面這個有規範的一個發包方式那有時候是因為比方說這個原設計的費用跟他預期能夠獲得中央的補助"},{"start":310.174,"end":328.526,"text":"有所落差或者是他獲得議會同意的預算有所落差那在不影響主要的這個工程的核心核心需求之下那麼去檢向發包那未來他有機會再擴充可能中央也同意說"},{"start":329.506,"end":349.326,"text":"夏年度或以後年度一定會給你那這種情形有時候是有在進行但是至於把主要的核心的價值不考慮那麼在預算還沒有確定的狀況之下做了一些比較不符合常規的減向花包那這部分的確工程會的確要來檢討"},{"start":350.948,"end":368.169,"text":"那把這些太陽啊列為一個相對的教材那麼韓班各機關那麼對檢像花苞這件事情應該有一些負面表列要避開的這一類我們會同意蔡委員的這個主張我們會立即來改善"},{"start":369.332,"end":398.321,"text":"好 謝謝主委啦 應該要有一些規範啦沒有規範 譬如說你要什麼樣的前提底下你減相發包是可以的什麼樣的狀況底下是不可以的譬如說什麼美術館減相發包那完工後還需要20億結果可能完工後沒有辦法使用就是殼子蓋好在裡面可能沒錢嘛那我的意思是說這個本來就算預算沒有被動被刪也可能會發生"},{"start":399.361,"end":427.717,"text":"就大家地方政府可能搶著 要有政績嘛就轉到花包出去了結果呢 什麼東西卡好卡好內容就沒有辦法所以會有很多那種案子就是奇怪大家看殼都已經蓋好了 為什麼遲遲不能使用那本席的意思就是說今年啊因為又預算遇到這個把中央的預算動成這樣 砍成這個樣子那所以可能這個問題本來就算我承諾你的"},{"start":428.564,"end":445.084,"text":"沒問題我本來可以承諾你結果沒想到沒有發生過預算被人家砍成這個樣子所以可能就沒有辦法承諾了就沒辦法履行那個承諾所以我同意主委啦就是你把它檢討一下就是什麼樣的樣態底下不可以再"},{"start":446.285,"end":474.324,"text":"這樣子的方式去發包就檢像發包應該是要有條件的情況底下才可以進行這個檢像發包另外就是如果檢像發包預期要擴充那這個訊息要揭露不能只有單獨幾家知道其他的不知道會擴充而且擴充可能擴充很多所以這訊息是要揭露沒錯因為揭露在標的過程才會公平OK這個我覺得這個建議是很好的"},{"start":476.065,"end":504.553,"text":"第二個我想跟主委請教那個CSR納入評比這個事情看起來公共工程會做的這應該是主計單位吧 審計處做的中央機關大概有三層做CSR的評比就是最有力標啦最有力標有納入CSR的中央大概三層國營事業大概四層地方政府僅有一層"},{"start":505.578,"end":531.336,"text":"那我們都知道CSR你要最有利標我們要意思就是說我們評選 透過評選評選出最好的公司 最優質的公司能力最好的公司那這裡面有很多條件要去審核那這CSR的納入評比的比例這麼低像地方政府只有一成納入那這CSR裡面涉及到工資合不合理嘛薪資結構合不合理"},{"start":532.156,"end":547.434,"text":"那像這樣的一個照顧勞工考量這個勞工的權益的部分這種薪資合理化的這個部分所以有沒有什麼方法或者是未來有什麼計畫讓這個CSR納入評比的比例可以拉升"},{"start":549.363,"end":573.57,"text":"好 謝謝蔡委員那麼我們目前正在整理相關的法規會朝向ESG方向來進行過去我們都講CSR目前因為環境重視所以用ESG當然我們會在評選的部分希望各機關在辦理有利標然後評選的時候"},{"start":575.35,"end":590.925,"text":"有做到一定標準的他應該給他一定的分數來鼓勵企業那包括我們主席很重視的勞工的薪資的部分也都會納入加分的項目不過呢這個ESG或CSR有做沒做還是說做好做壞"},{"start":592.472,"end":614.408,"text":"有時候會差很多啦就有的公司可能那個永續報告寫得很漂亮那事實上沒在做啦所以這裡我們在還在思考用什麼樣的標準比較明確說這個公司他很努力在做ESG或者他已經做了10年了做20年了不是去年才做的那他有沒有像像這個"},{"start":617.131,"end":636.386,"text":"這個經管會或證交所他上市公司有沒有提永續報告這我們就規劃一個比較嚴謹的方式來鼓勵企業重視企業社會責任或者是環境這樣的或者相關的公司治理我們都會來考量這個會遵照蔡委員的交代來重新訂購一個比較嚴謹的標準"},{"start":638.348,"end":661.317,"text":"好 這個主委你也知道問題啦 第一個目標要清楚啦ESG也好 CSI也好 其實都是企業社會責任的指標那這個事情要推 政府再不動就很困難嘛 特別是在有利標但如同主委剛剛講的 也有可能會有公不公平 或者真的有落實嗎 這種疑慮 所以可能"},{"start":662.417,"end":677.842,"text":"評比的百分比或者我們有訂定另外一套去合格查實的這個方法 這個本席都支持那態度先有了後面就會慢慢推動嘛 好不好最後一個 這個"},{"start":679.082,"end":692.085,"text":"本席跟交通部這麼多年來一直在爭取這個我們台中大甲溪橋跟大安溪橋的改建那交通部跟本席講說已經送到工程會來審議那主委你知道這個案子嗎我是請我們這個處長來說明好不好這是屬於基本設計審查"},{"start":702.128,"end":711.934,"text":"就我們台中大甲西橋跟大安西橋年久了嘛現在公路局希望把它本席爭取要改建嘛來可不可以說明一下處長報告委員齁這個案子的改建案交通部已經送到我們工程會來審議齁那目前已經送送往國發會那國發會的現在已經在會診中"},{"start":732.434,"end":735.613,"text":"所以我們預期他的進度大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":735.919,"end":764.35,"text":"那國安會如果審閉行政院就會核定所以基本上等國安會應該很快如果基本設計就是工程會審閉國安會這部分只是一個改建沒有相關的環評或相關的問題國安會審這個會很快所以工程會審了我們審了才會送國安會已經出去了簡單講是這樣子那已經不在你們追案子已經不在工程會了是在國安會了這樣就好了謝謝"},{"start":767.026,"end":767.228,"text":"好 謝謝我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":482,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時10分）謝謝主席，請陳主委。"],["主席：陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：蔡委員早。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委早。主委，預算的刪除、凍結這麼嚴重，其實本席質詢你也有一點辛苦，因為涉及到預算的我都不問了，你就沒錢，我還在這邊問半天也不知道可以問什麼，所以待會如果不小心問到跟預算有關的，你就直接告訴本席，報告委員，預算被凍或者被刪所以沒辦法執行。","預算送院會解凍，本席印象中也很少聽到這樣的，解凍就是在委員會嘛！現在這個可能要請議事人員、請議事處再研議看看送院會解凍的程序到底要不要交付委員會先審，再回送給院會審，這個可能大院要去研究一下，至少在我印象裡面，好像送院會解凍……這個不知道。","不管了，先回到我們的主題，我的辦公室問了工程會一下，最近大家發包都在做減項，也就是減項招標，這個減項招標，都是因應著物價上漲，因為中央政府也好，地方政府也好都經費不足，在經費不足的情況底下，事情很重要，又要做，所以就把它做減項發包。對於這個減項發包，本來本席就覺得問題很大，因為等於是我們錢還不一定夠，但菜都先點了，我們是預期反正一邊吃，錢還會有人送過來餐廳，所以我們就繼續吃。現在問題更嚴重的原因是因為，我們原先帶來的錢又被刪除了，本來已經帶夠了，因為其他因素，又把我們帶來餐廳要吃飯的錢又凍結、又刪除，所以這個減項發包的問題會愈來愈嚴重。","工程會這邊有提出減項發包，主要大概有九成都是因為物價上漲，沒有足夠的經費所以做這樣的調整，減項發包最後就會發現幾個問題，譬如臺北的忠孝橋，引橋拆除兩次流標，北市要減項發包，這個減項發包有沒有可能會出現有橋沒有路燈的情形？像我們臺中的大甲國中手球館，它減項發包的結果就是房子蓋好了，裡面不可以打手球，而且沒有門，因為門當時被減項發包，所以沒門。","我認為減項發包會產生一些問題，譬如報紙也看到了，醫院要蓋但要減項發包，所以醫院沒有防火門，所以這個減項發包的問題，主委，這個的確應該要認真，工程會恐怕要認真一下，否則以後這樣的案例會愈來愈多，而且也愈來愈荒謬，不久之後我們就會看到本來減項了，本來預期今年要補，結果預算被刪又被凍，所以不能補，不能補就會出現很多很荒謬的建築物，或者是很荒謬的案例。我剛剛已經舉了幾個了，像是我們的手球場沒有門，譬如說蓋路橋可能沒路燈，譬如說醫院沒有防火門，我相信這會愈來愈多。主委，這個工程會要不要有個統一性的指示，對於減項發包到底要怎麼規範，才不會出現這種亂象？"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝委員，減項發包當然也是目前政府採購法裡面有規範的發包方式，有時候原設計的費用跟它預期能夠獲得的中央補助有所落差，或者是與它能獲得議會同意的預算有所落差。在不影響主要工程的核心需求之下去減項發包，未來它有機會再擴充，可能中央也同意，下年度或以後年度一定會給你，這種情形有時候是有在進行，但是不考慮核心價值，在預算還沒有確定的狀況之下，做了一些比較不符合常規的減項發包，這部分工程會的確要來檢討，把這些態樣列為相對的教材，函頒各機關對減項發包這件事情，應該要有一些負面表列要避開的，這一類我們會同意蔡委員的主張，我們會立即改善。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝主委，應該要有一些規範，譬如你要在什麼樣的前提底下，你減項發包是可以的，什麼樣的狀況底下是不可以的。譬如美術館減項發包，完工後還需要20億，結果完工後可能沒有辦法使用，也就是殼子蓋好了，但裡面可能沒錢。我的意思是說，這個就算預算沒有被凍、被刪，也可能會發生，就是地方政府大家可能搶著要有政績，於是就全部發包出去，結果東西蓋好了、殼建好了，內容卻沒有辦法，所以會有很多那種案子，就是大家看殼都已經蓋好了，為什麼遲遲不能使用？本席的意思就是說，今年因為遇到把中央的預算凍成這樣、砍成這個樣子，所以可能這個問題，本來就算我承諾你了，沒問題，我本來可以承諾你的，結果沒想到，沒有發生過預算被人家砍成這個樣子，所以可能就沒有辦法履行那個承諾了。所以我同意主委，你把它檢討一下，就是對於什麼樣態底下，不可以再以這樣子的方式去發包，減項發包應該是要在有條件的情況底下才可以進行。"],["陳主任委員金德：另外就是，如果減項發包預期要擴充，這個訊息要揭露啦！不能只有單獨幾家知道，其他的不知道會擴充。"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對、對。"],["陳主任委員金德：而且也有可能會擴充很多，所以這個訊息是要揭露。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯，因為揭露後，在標的過程才會公平，OK，我覺得這個建議是很好的。","第二個我想跟主委請教，把CSR納入評比這個事情，看起來工程會做了……這個應該是主計單位、審計部做的，中央機關大概有三成做CSR的評比，也就是最有利標有納入CSR的，中央大概是三成，國營事業大概是四成，地方政府僅有一成，我們都知道CSR要做最有利標，意思就是，我們透過評選要評選出最好的公司、最優質的公司、能力最好的公司，這裡面有很多條件要去審核。這個CSR納入評比的比例這麼低，像地方政府只有一成納入，這個CSR裡面涉及到工資合不合理、薪資結構合不合理，像這樣的一個照顧勞工、考量勞工權益的部分，也就是薪資合理化的部分，主委有沒有什麼方法或者是未來有沒有什麼計畫讓這個CSR納入評比的比例可以拉升？"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝蔡委員，我們目前正在整理相關的法規，會朝向ESG的方向進行，過去我們都講CSR，目前因為環境重視，所以用ESG。當然，我們會在評選的部分，希望各機關在辦理最有利標，進行評選的時候，對做到一定標準的，應該要給予一定的分數來鼓勵企業，包括我們主席很重視的勞工薪資部分，也都會納入加分的項目。不過ESG或CSR有做、沒有做或是做得好、做得不好，有時候會差很多，就是有的公司可能永續報告寫得很漂亮，事實上卻沒有在做。所以我們還在思考用什麼樣的標準比較明確，譬如這家公司很努力在做ESG，或者是它已經做了10年、20年了，而不是去年才做的，或是身為上市公司，它有沒有向金管會或證交所提永續報告？我們正在規劃一個比較嚴謹的方式，鼓勵企業重視企業社會責任、環境保護或相關的公司治理，我們都會來考量，並遵照蔡委員的交代重新訂定一個比較嚴謹的標準。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。主委也知道問題所在，第一個，目標清楚，ESG也好、CSR也好，其實都是企業社會責任的指標，這個事情要推，政府再不動就很困難，特別像最有利標。但如同主委剛剛講的，也有可能會有公不公平或者有沒有真的落實這種疑慮，所以不管是評比的百分比或者訂定另外一套去合格查實的方法，本席都支持，態度先有了，後面就會慢慢推動，好不好？","最後一個，本席跟交通部這麼多年來一直在爭取臺中大甲溪橋跟大安溪橋的改建，交通部跟本席講說已經送到工程會來審議，主委，你知道這個案子嘛？"],["陳主任委員金德：我是不是請我們處長來說明，好不好？這是屬於基本設計審查。"],["蔡委員其昌：就是我們臺中大甲溪橋跟大安溪橋年代久遠，現在本席爭取要改建，可不可以說明一下？"],["主席：處長。"],["曾處長鈞敏：報告委員，關於這個案子的改建案，交通部已經送到我們工程會來審議，目前已經送往國發會，國發會現在已經在彙整中。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，所以我們預期它的進度大概是怎麼樣？"],["陳主任委員金德：國發會如果審畢，行政院就會核定。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK，所以基本上……"],["陳主任委員金德：國發會應該會很快……"],["蔡委員其昌：很快。"],["陳主任委員金德：如果基本設計……就是工程會審畢，國發會這部分只是一個改建……"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["陳主任委員金德：沒有環評或相關的問題，國發會審這個會很快。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以工程會審了？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們審了，才會送國發會協審……"],["蔡委員其昌：送國發會，已經出去了，簡單講是這樣子。"],["陳主任委員金德：它會問我們的意見。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK，已經不在你們這裡了，所以案子已經不在工程會了？"],["陳主任委員金德：是，在國發會。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK，這樣就好了。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌副院長。","接下來請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}