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看這個"},{"start":166.435,"end":176.363,"text":"上一張來上一張給主委看一下來來來解凍的條件你看清楚了嗎來為什麼會凍了公共工程業務費為什麼會凍了50%因為根據112年審計部的審計報告上面說的他說什麼他說你們公共工程這個資料庫沒有提供結標的價格對應的標的資訊跟底價的金額"},{"start":196.411,"end":202.874,"text":"他要你這個提出來啊因為這通過 因為這很困難對不對這個難做嗎 甘不難受第一 審計部的決算報告標是合理"},{"start":212.128,"end":228.533,"text":"合情有需要嘛 對不對所以他要求用這個理由要你做這件事情合理嘛他要你解凍的理由很簡單啊你就照這樣做把這個資料庫建立起來送到立法院來報告這個很簡單啊對你來說可能一天就做好事了是不是"},{"start":240.055,"end":259.552,"text":"齁 所以 四位我們知道你很努力 你也為了動50%在堅固 我知道啦問題你如果把這個提案內容弄清楚好不好你會怎麼說啊 你說你很努力要解凍對不對你趕快把這個案子這幾天就做好了嘛啊有兩個管道嘛 你看我們的"},{"start":260.475,"end":274.144,"text":"你交通委員會這麼幸運 你有這麼英明 理性的召委林國成在這裡你拜託他稍微去拜啊 但是你也拜託韓院長稍微去拜啊是不是 這個有困難嗎 會不會 不會嘛報告委員就是說 我剛剛講過 院會來處理委員會審查過的預算"},{"start":282.583,"end":311.698,"text":"是還要同意使得動之這件事情的確是很少見啦也很難執行我坦白講到現在為止貴院大院都還沒有明確說這個關於預算院會同意使得動之這件事情來教導行政院教我們應該怎麼提案 教導不敢啦 不過你人言那好 你現在去找韓院長或者是提出來 我跟你講立法院這個事情也不會拖啦我給大家看一個資料"},{"start":315.161,"end":326.608,"text":"這個我列這個資料你們一定有印象113年啊被凍結的預算交通部傻傻一餅他在什麼時候解凍大家知道嗎4月18號"},{"start":329.628,"end":354.317,"text":"4月18號交通這個決議叫什麼113年度中央政府總計算管理交通部主管凍結案有多少股尼113年度31項一天在交通委員會開完會就解凍啦解凍因為是宴會交下來了嘛親同意動資提報宴會交通部有31項就過啦你公共工程委員會股尼應該也有凍結啊你是幾個案過來審完就過啦"},{"start":356.874,"end":384.565,"text":"那更不要講院會啦 院會到時候一定是把你你凍結最主要就是這個業務費嘛 對不對我都要講過啦 審計部要求的事情對他來說很簡單的啊那我看你的工作同仁應該很強啊你交代一下這個案子 明天就你好啦應該是4月18號以前 應該可能就解凍了吧所以第一個不用擔心你們有好的招委立法院也一定會盡速去通過嘛其實重點 我今天要強調喔"},{"start":387.22,"end":410.617,"text":"內容要看因為審計部為什麼這樣要求立法院為什麼要這樣要求啊我剛剛講的嘛 你也點頭嘛 對不對他的要求是合情合理合法嘛 對不對啊對人家講很容易做嘛那就趕快做啊你來這邊不是一直在解決你是在解決問題了啊不是一直在解釋問題或者製造問題啊好不好先弄到民間連那個金詞獎金詞獎已經辦了幾屆了二十四屆第一屆五屆這樣你如果照預算法的規定"},{"start":416.093,"end":438.331,"text":"我們的總預算到現在還沒完全過總統還沒公告預算法裡面有明定啊 法定的預算啊延續性的預算本來就可以延續啊你已經說24屆判25為什麼不行我今年是算第25屆所以預算指的是今年的預算他就是要延續性的嘛尤其這不能反對啦僅此講這麼好的一個獎項 對不對"},{"start":442.349,"end":453.105,"text":"他如果是特優我看那個特優他以後去外面那個比價的時候他那個底標省二分之一耶對不對而且都很有榮耀啊總統還頒獎啊"},{"start":454.844,"end":476.373,"text":"好不好所以 聽他講 聽他講第一個 你趕快把案子提出來因為很容易嘛 我都已經提案內容了嘛然後趕快送上去 我認為院會很快就會通過所以對外不要再講什麼金職獎沒辦法辦了你今天就清清楚楚跟他們講金職獎不只會辦 會辦得比以前更好我剛才已經有說明了 就是說如果4月底之前"},{"start":477.753,"end":499.108,"text":"預算能夠獲得解凍 那金職獎繼續辦如果10月底之前預算沒有解凍 那金職獎今年恐怕沒辦法辦另外我跟委員報告就是說以這個黨團提案然後說主決議是院會同意時的動之這件事情完全百分之百侵犯了委員會的權責"},{"start":500.686,"end":515.126,"text":"委員會所有的預算在委員會已經審閉了包括凍結凍結這是第一個我們最好不要經常有這樣的東西主委這沒有切換啊這歷年來的立法院就是這樣運作啊有些送到委員會凍結解凍啊有些送到立法院主決議通常是委員會通常主"},{"start":517.569,"end":546.731,"text":"主席通常是同意委員會所提的說委員會解凍那第二個就是很重視你們工程會所以才會送到院會嘛不過最重要其實我剛才說的內容合情合理合法而且很快啦我再跟你講一個觀念我們再溝通一個觀念事實上每一年凍結案都很多我剛才說大概113年度高中報的31例對不對我剛才還特別請那個指揮你回想一下你當過立法委員有凍結案後來沒有解凍的嗎"},{"start":548.752,"end":573.659,"text":"非常少耶我印象中只有一次啦賴清德因為國民黨去動了那個公共電視的那個那個預算啦因為賴清德那時候賴總統是那個幹事長他不願意簽那個解凍後來公視跟一些人民團體就在報紙上登了一個廣告要賴清德賴幹事長要解凍只有賴比其他一定如期嘛所以你不要擔心你的什麼金字獎沒辦法辦啦另外我給大家看一下"},{"start":578.228,"end":605.95,"text":"今年啊 凍結的凍結的這個比例啊佔總預算的4.6%我說我從90年開始算那時候你已經在內閣啦90年開始算有8次都比今年的凍結比例都還高了你就算金額有4年比今年都還高啊我剛才講了都解凍啦所以我拜託一下一方面我是會說這幾天包括行政院長帶著部會首長下去就會講說什麼凍結沒辦法做"},{"start":608.189,"end":624.186,"text":"以前就沒有這個問題啊這是第一個我今天要特別強調的第二個你一直在擔心你的金職獎因為我昨天看了報紙還登了大大一個版你趕快給我們優秀的優良的那些建商獎金職獎沒有問題好不好OK好謝謝好主委謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":833,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時31分）請主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：主委早。我看早上一直有人在問你公共工程金質獎這件事情，其實你當過立法委員，你應該知道凍結要解凍是很容易的事情啊！而且長久以來，你印象中有凍結的案子到後來沒有解凍的嗎？你當立委這麼久，當高雄市副市長，當宜蘭縣代理縣長，有嗎？你印象中有凍結的案子後來沒有解凍的嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，主要是兩件事，第一個，從來沒有說要求院會同意始得動支這件事情，也許從南京成立立法院到現在，查一下，看看有沒有說要求立法院解凍……"],["張委員啓楷：有、有、有，主委，到院會去解凍的很多，其實有啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：然後那個困難度是很高。"],["張委員啓楷：你有誤解，有、有、有，立法院送到院會解凍的很多，其實很多，你查一下，你叫你的同仁回去查一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：第二個就是說，平常我們在委員會內大家都很熟識，業務很瞭解，委員們也認真審查這個業務，所以在委員會解凍溝通很容易啦！所以才不會真正嚴肅去想解凍這件事情合憲或合法，在委員會是OK，講一下，如果那麼嚴肅提高到院會來決定，我們看立法院職權行使法，院會能夠審議的只有幾項，包括宣戰、媾和、預算、法案及其他國家重要事項，難道我們要求工程會1億或幾千萬的解凍案報到院會去解凍是屬國家重大事項嗎？這部分倒是要好好……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你可以回去看，其實每一年都有一些案子是送到院會去要求解凍，老實講也非常簡單沒有困難，我去看了你這個案子，最重要是你被凍結的理由是什麼，如果是合理的又很簡單的，你就不能夠好像是情勒，讓那些民間團體覺得好像是立法院去砍了它的預算，你應該把它交代清楚啊！你知道這一次為什麼你的業務費被凍結了50%嗎？你有沒有看那個案由？"],["陳主任委員金德：就是組織定位嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你知道你為什麼被凍了50%嗎？你可以去看提案，這個提案很容易解開啊！我唸給你聽，主委看一下簡報，解凍的條件你看清楚了嗎？來！公共工程業務費為什麼會凍了50%？因為根據112年審計部的審計報告上面說的，它說什麼？它說你們公共工程這個資料庫沒有提供決標價格對應的標比資訊跟底價金額，它要你提出來，院會就通過，主委，這個會很困難嗎？這個很難做嗎？會很難做嗎？第一個，審計部的決算報告欸！表示合理合情，有需要嘛！對不對？主委，沒錯嘛！審計部的要求，對不對？所以它要求凍，用這個理由要你做這件事情，合理嘛！審計部要求的嘛！第二個，它要你……"],["陳主任委員金德：這個決標……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你聽我講，它要你解凍的理由很簡單，你就照這樣做，把資料庫建立起來，送到立法院來報告，這個很簡單啊！對你來說可能一天就做好了，是不是？所以主委，我當然知道你很努力，你也為了凍50%在難過，我知道啦！問題是你如果把這個提案內容弄清楚，你可以這樣說啊！你說你很努力要解凍，對不對？你趕快把這個案子，這個一兩天就做好了嘛！有兩個管道嘛！你看我們的交通委員會這麼幸運，你有這麼英明理性的召委林國成在這裡，你拜託他接下來快排啊！第二，你可以拜託韓院長接下來快排啊！是不是？這個有困難嗎？會不會？不會嘛！"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，我剛剛講過，院會來處理委員會審查過的預算還要同意始得動支這件事情，的確是很少見，也很難執行，我坦白講，到現在為止，貴院、大院都還沒有明確就預算經院會同意始得動支這件事情來教導行政院，教我們應該怎麼提案。"],["張委員啓楷：教導不敢啦！不過主委你人緣這麼好，你現在去找韓院長或者是提出來，我跟你講，立法院對這件事情也不會拖啦！","我給大家看一個資料，我唸這個資料你們一定有印象，113年被凍結的預算在交通部有31筆，它在什麼時候解凍大家知道嗎？4月18日，4月18日哦！這個決議叫什麼？113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管，凍結案有多少？去年113年度有31項，一天在交通委員會開完會就解凍啦！解凍，因為是院會交下來了嘛！經同意動支，提報院會，交通部的31項就過啦！你公共工程委員會去年應該也有凍結，你也是幾個案過來，審完就過啦！更不要講院會，院會到時候一定是把你解凍，你凍結最主要就是這個業務費，對不對？我剛才說過了，審計部要求的；第二個，對你來說很簡單啊！我看你的同仁工作能力應該很強，你交代一下，這個案子明天就擬好啦！應該是4月18日以前可能就解凍了嘛！"],["陳主任委員金德：這個就是過……"],["張委員啓楷：所以第一個，不用擔心，你們有好的召委，立法院也一定會儘速去通過，其實最重要的，我今天要強調哦！內容要看，因為審計部為什麼這樣要求？立法院為什麼要這樣要求？我剛剛講了，你也點頭嘛！對不對？它的要求是合情合理合法，對不對？對你來講很容易做，那就趕快做啊！你是來這邊解決問題的，不是一直在解釋問題或者製造問題啊！現在弄到民間連那個金質獎，金質獎已經辦了幾屆了？"],["陳主任委員金德：24屆。"],["張委員啓楷：第25屆了欸！你如果照預算法的規定，我們的總預算到現在還沒有完全過，總統還沒公告欸！預算法裡面有明定啊！法定的預算，延續性的預算本來就可以延續，你已經都25屆，24屆要辦25屆為什麼不行？對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們今年是算第25屆。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：所以預算指的是今年的預算。"],["張委員啓楷：它是一個比較延續性的，尤其這個不會有人反對，金質獎是這麼好的一個獎項，對不對？它如果是特優，我看那個特優它以後去外面比價的時候，那個底標省二分之一欸！"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["張委員啓楷：而且都很有榮耀，總統還頒獎啊！所以主委……"],["陳主任委員金德：不過我跟委員報告一件事情……"],["張委員啓楷：聽我講，第一個，你趕快把案子提出來，因為很容易嘛！我剛剛已經講過提案內容了，你趕快送上去，我認為院會很快就會通過，所以對外不要再講什麼金質獎沒辦法辦了，你今天就清清楚楚跟他們講，金質獎不只會辦，會辦得比以前更好。"],["陳主任委員金德：我剛才已經有說明了，如果4月底之前預算能夠獲得解凍，那金質獎繼續辦；如果4月底之前預算沒有解凍，那金質獎今年恐怕沒辦法辦。","另外，我跟委員報告，以這個黨團提案說主決議是院會同意始得動支這件事情，完全百分之百侵犯了委員會的權責，所有的預算在委員會已經審畢的，包括凍結、解凍，這是第一個，我覺得最好不要經常有這樣的東西啦！"],["張委員啓楷：主委，這個沒有侵犯啊！歷年來的立法院就是這樣運作啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：沒有、沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：有些送到委員會凍結、解凍，有些送到院會凍結跟解凍啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：主決議通常是同一委員會所提的，說委員會解凍。第二個就是預算……"],["張委員啓楷：因為很重視你們工程會，所以才會送到院會嘛！不過最重要其實就是我剛才講的，內容合情合理合法，而且很快啦！","來，我再跟你講一個觀念，我們來溝通一個觀念，事實上每一年凍結案都很多，我剛才光是唸113年度，交通部就有31個了，對不對？我剛剛還特別請主委你回想一下，你當過立法委員，有凍結案後來沒有解凍的嗎？非常少耶！我印象中只有一次，賴清德因為國民黨去凍了公共電視的預算，那時候賴總統是幹事長，他不願意簽解凍，後來公視跟一些人民團體就在報紙上登了廣告，要賴清德幹事長解凍，只有那一筆，其他一定如期嘛！所以你不要擔心你的金質獎沒辦法辦。","另外，我給大家看一下，今年凍結的比例占總預算4.6%，如果從90年開始算，那時候你已經在內閣啦！90年開始算，有8次都比今年的凍結比例還高，你如果算金額，有4年比今年都還高，我剛才講了，都解凍啦！所以我拜託一下，一方面我是認為這幾天包括行政院長帶著部會首長下去就在講說什麼凍結沒辦法做，以前就沒有這個問題啊！這是第一個我今天要特別強調的。第二個，你一直在擔心你的金質獎，因為我昨天看了報紙，還登了大大一個版，你趕快跟我們優秀、優良的那些建商講，金質獎沒有問題，好不好？OK？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：好，主委謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。","接下來張宏陸委員、張宏陸委員、張宏陸委員不在。","現在請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}