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仔細再做不是嘛 我已經白紙黑色亮出來了你還要在這邊強辯還要在這邊撒謊這審計不下去 審計的結果啊111年計畫就結束了112年開始 沒有再辦理該計畫"},{"start":180.26,"end":195.972,"text":"結果112年的預算書113年的預算書繼續編根本就不存在的計畫聯名會預算書可以這樣編嗎用幽靈的計畫來騙預算這樣對嗎來請教主委我們還有一些違印的計畫所以才有這樣子編違印的計畫主委我已經白紙黑字亮出來給你看了"},{"start":211.755,"end":233.551,"text":"你還繼續在台上鬼扯啊這是審計部交來的審計報告啊我現在的問題很簡單啊這兩年邊在這個企劃向下的錢花到什麼地方去邊在這個企劃向下的錢花到什麼地方去這是我的問題"},{"start":235.799,"end":258.447,"text":"趴到哪裡去因為確實啦確實過去的編列不太妥當但是就是說我們有一些這個先兩個部分嘛第一個你剛剛承認一件事情我肯定你啊過去的編列不太妥當啊這個不是用不太妥當四個字就可以形容啊這根本在胡搞瞎搞啊計畫已經終結了結果用幽營計畫來騙預算"},{"start":261.392,"end":281.546,"text":"這個審計部的報告寫得很清楚啦現在我的第二個問題是錢花到哪裡去啊錢花到哪裡去牽涉到兩個年度你編在這個計畫項下面原民會把錢花到什麼地方去嗎針對這件事情一個禮拜之內給我書面回覆好嗎好可以嗎可以好"},{"start":282.574,"end":305.148,"text":"那第三個事情跟這個有關係的事情是審計部的報告上面也說原民會這樣亂搞不對那我現在的問題來啦那接下來原民會這件事情打算要怎麼辦就算了反正錢都花了錢要追回來嗎不是我們現在跟審計部我們也在做一個檢討需要檢討多久"},{"start":308.837,"end":326.552,"text":"這沒有什麼好檢討的啦,我老實跟你講啦這個就是一個幽靈計畫嘛錢花到哪裡去了一個禮拜回復我我現在接下來的問題是要花掉這些錢接下來現在要怎麼辦要追回來嗎還是錢花了就花了,這是我的問題"},{"start":328.971,"end":354.722,"text":"因為我們現在跟審計部也有在跟他們做說明假設就是審計部怎麼樣來指示或者是怎麼樣來要我們檢討我們會依照他的意思來做檢討你們回文審計部了嗎回了回的內容會後可不可以提供給我好如果審計部要把錢追回來你們就會把錢追回來對不對對這件事情很重要下一個問題崔榮浩上任以後提了幾次覆議你知道嗎"},{"start":357.235,"end":385.045,"text":"應該是五次吧應該是五次嘛我們上次修了原住民族委員會組織法三讀後你們原民會發聲明說要提復議提了沒有這個跟委員報告我們就是這個部分我們要研議後來我們研議的結果我們沒有提奇怪了聲明不是嗆得很大聲說要提復議到最後也沒有提怎麼樣是昨天他不支持嗎"},{"start":386.297,"end":414.375,"text":"是院長不支持嗎不是後來我們就沒有對嘛我當然知道你客觀上沒有提嘛那我現在的問題就很清楚啊奇怪我們的園民會是把婦役當兒戲嗎在臉書上貼還發了新聞稿嗆聲嗆得很大聲結果搞到後來虎頭蛇尾什麼都沒有做是你要提婦役卓榮泰不支持嗎說清楚啊"},{"start":418.769,"end":438.215,"text":"有人會可以這樣幹喔?蛤?我們後來就是我們自己內部就是研議就是我們研議之後我們就沒有提所以當初發這個聲明然後寫臉書嗆聲是什麼?私律不周嗎?你內部還沒有研議完就急著發臉書嗆聲啊?"},{"start":442.591,"end":469.713,"text":"不是啊!這個臉書是假的嗎?這個新聞稿是假的嗎?我有說錯嗎?哇!我跟主委講啊三思而後行啊想清楚啦想清楚啦不要以後讓大家不把圓明會的聲明當一回事啊"},{"start":470.919,"end":481.528,"text":"你講了以後又沒有執行到底讓人家看破手腳覺得很遺憾來接下來再請一下部長請部長部長有請"},{"start":485.29,"end":502.623,"text":"不好意思部長我們那個進度我要繼續追一下我上一次的時候我要請教你針對極有法修正的進程目前進度如何目前我們警政署已經討論完畢但是跟其他單位之間還需要多久"},{"start":504.209,"end":526.569,"text":"可能會有困擾 因為行政院會要求我們所謂的復建裡面的禁制區域禁制區域包括像醫院 或者是像司法機關前面這些每個人的看法都不一樣所以現在行政院的立場是要繼續維持禁制區嗎現在還是需要考量禁制區但是呢來 我們先一個一個具體的來看剛剛你講到禁制區嘛"},{"start":529.393,"end":545.12,"text":"這個是內政部在1996年所公告的禁制區國外破區化得非常的大,我的在地圖上全部把它框出來這個是1996年內政部公告的禁制區從1996年到現在2025年,這個禁制區的範圍有檢討過嗎?"},{"start":550.247,"end":575.714,"text":"現在在檢討那但是呢現在在檢討所以從1996最起碼到今天為止沒有任何變更嗎目前為止是沒有但是我想委員非常知道在相關的一些集會遊行活動其實我們採取比較有聯繫的措施非常嚴謹啊當初馬政府時期的時候民進黨發的新聞稿是什麼說的是黑心版本"},{"start":577.032,"end":600.258,"text":"為什麼說那個時候提出來這黑心版本因為他要保留禁制區嘛賴清德主張集遊法禁制區要刪除這個是賴清德在2008年的時候集會遊行法公聽會代表民主進步黨黨團發表的立場這個立場到今天是不是改變了"},{"start":602.928,"end":610.891,"text":"這個立場到現在為止所謂的禁制區的規定予以廢除這個事情其實我們有所保留所以賴清德總統的立場改變了是嗎所以賴總統的立場沒有改變但是內政部有保留是這樣嗎"},{"start":617.893,"end":642.28,"text":"我們的保留是在於執行面會碰到困擾所以當初賴清德在當立委的時候他主張要廢除進治區那個時候醫院的騷擾沒有那麼大對於醫院等安全進治區的騷擾沒有那麼大那時宜進遷我們覺得必須要所以時空環境背景不太一樣了賴清德立委那個時候的主張到賴清德總統現在有改變是嗎"},{"start":643.83,"end":654.258,"text":"如果說我們的主張 譬如說本來是申請制然後變成一部分的報備制那其實是朝著這個方向在處理我們希望是審慎的處理而不是斷崖式的處理所以那時候賴清德的主張是斷崖式的處理嗎"},{"start":661.263,"end":677.408,"text":"沒有 它是它的主張主張跟處理的方式是牽涉到在行政部門的執行的方式那行政部門的執行方式就是剛剛我跟委員報告的部分因為你在司法區域或是相關的司法單位的話不是行政部門而是司法部門"},{"start":678.408,"end":698.513,"text":"然後行政部門包括醫院等這些一受到騷擾會干擾到病患或是干擾到去司法院處理一些他們的司法的業務的部分的話那這個必須要比較多的時間跟他們溝通所以你剛剛講的那些考慮賴清德當初在主張廢除禁制區的時候都沒有想到就對了"},{"start":699.461,"end":715.994,"text":"他是一個原則我們根據這個原則在處理他當初提的原則不就是要廢除經濟區嗎來來來紅色的字啊你要念一下嗎白紙黑字啊寫得這麼清楚的東西啊立場有改變就改變嘛有轉彎就轉彎嘛來"},{"start":719.692,"end":744.459,"text":"這個是當初2008年一路到現在2016年那個時候結果到現在就沒有然後了部長說要演繹某個程度上我並不反對但是一個法案從2016年都是民進黨政府主政行政部門全部都是民進黨政府演繹到現在2025年"},{"start":746.988,"end":751.401,"text":"請問部長還要再研議多久還是一樣沒有時間表,有可能一路研議到2028年"},{"start":754.674,"end":778.178,"text":"我無法在這個地方跟委員會講一件事所以當初在提證件的時候,怎麼提都可以嗎?真的要實現證件的時候,開始問題一堆啊、藉口一堆啊,說要延避大家也都同意重點是什麼?從2016年延避到2025年,接下來還要再延避多久?"},{"start":778.658,"end":807.458,"text":"仍然會在研議當中我知道 我了解持續的研議嘛不斷的研議嘛對啊現在你所講的問題啊當初在2008年好像都不存在嘛你現在講的問題在2008年都不存在嘛所以2008年的時候那新北總統才會提出這樣的主張嘛結果搞到現在2025年的時候還是一模一樣嘛彷彿你今天講的考慮2008年都不存在一樣啊"},{"start":808.888,"end":827.843,"text":"一個政府開了支票就要兌現不是拿來跳票的所以當初2008年賴清德提這個主張就是不審慎就是不嚴謹就是賴清德當初提那樣的主張就是要造成人民的困擾不是嗎所以主張就說得是一套真的可以做的時候就沒有要做"},{"start":837.651,"end":851.026,"text":"沒有 現在有在做只是在考量要更審慎是 你們說現在有在做從2016年做到現在已經2025年了嘛那大家就看你們持續研議下去要研議多久嘛好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1069,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時36分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請原民會的主委，也請內政部的部長。"],["主席：請曾主委和劉部長。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好、部長好。先請教主委，之前原民會辦一個原住民族人口基礎資料庫規劃還有建置研究，這個研究執行到什麼時候？"],["曾主任委員智勇：112年。"],["黃委員國昌：你們在112年的時候執行到112年，那113年的預算為什麼還有這個建置研究？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為這個還要做一些收尾的工作。"],["黃委員國昌：所以有收尾嗎？有執行嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：後來就是有弄到智慧治理的部分來……"],["黃委員國昌：來，你先針對問題回答。我們編預算的原則，你有計畫所以要有經費，我現在的問題是這個計畫早就終止了，為什麼這個計畫終止，後面還有編預算？剛剛你說到112年，來，我們來看一下，112年就沒有在執行了，這是白紙黑字，審計部的調查報告出來，現在我非常地困惑，原民會的預算到底是怎麼編的？從112年就沒這個計畫，這個計畫到111年就結束了，我們再回去看一下，你們原民會的預算書112年、113年每一年都還有這個計畫執行，每一年都在編經費，那現在出現的問題是什麼？是你們在虛編預算，執行幽靈計畫嗎？這個計畫111年就終止了，為什麼112年、113年的預算還出現這個計畫？主委可不可以說明一下？這怎麼回事？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們還有一些維運的計畫持續在做。"],["黃委員國昌：不是嘛！我已經白紙黑字亮出來了，你還要在這邊強辯，還要在這邊撒謊。這審計部下去審計的結果，111年計畫就結束了，112年開始沒有在辦理該計畫，結果112年的預算書、113年的預算書繼續編根本就不存在的計畫，原民會預算書可以這樣編嗎？用幽靈的計畫來騙預算，這樣對嗎？請教主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們還有一些維運的計畫，所以才會這樣子編。"],["黃委員國昌：主委，我已經白紙黑字亮出來給你看了，你還繼續在臺上鬼扯，這是審計部交來的審計報告，我現在的問題很簡單，這兩年編在這一個計畫項下的錢花到什麼地方去？這是我的問題，花到哪裡去？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為確實過去的編列不太妥當，但是就是我們有一些……"],["黃委員國昌：兩個部分，第一、你剛剛承認一件事情，我肯定你，過去的編列不太妥當，這個不是用「不太妥當」四個字就可以形容，這根本在胡搞瞎搞！計畫已經終結了，結果用幽靈計畫來騙預算，審計部的報告寫得很清楚。現在我的第二個問題是錢花到哪裡去？錢花到哪裡去牽涉到兩個年度，你編在這個計畫項下，原民會把錢花到什麼地方去？針對這件事情，一個禮拜之內給我書面回復，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員國昌：第三個事情跟這個有關係的是，審計部的報告上面也說原民會這樣亂搞不對，那我現在的問題來了，那接下來原民會這件事情打算要怎麼辦？就算了，反正錢都花了？錢要追回來嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是，我們現在跟審計部也在做一個檢討，也有跟……"],["黃委員國昌：需要檢討多久？這沒有什麼好檢討的啦，我老實跟你講，這個就是一個幽靈計畫，錢花到哪裡去了？一個禮拜回復我。","接下來我有一個問題是花掉的這些錢，現在要怎麼辦？要追回來嗎？還是錢花了就花了？這是我的問題。"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為我們現在也有在跟審計部說明，審計部怎麼樣來指示，或者是要我們怎麼樣檢討，我們會依照它的意思來檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：你們回文審計部了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：回了。"],["黃委員國昌：回的內容會後可不可以提供給我？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員國昌：如果審計部要把錢追回來，你們就會把錢追回來，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["黃委員國昌：這件事情很重要。","下一個問題，卓榮泰上任以後提了幾次覆議，你知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：應該是5次。"],["黃委員國昌：我們上次修了原住民族委員會組織法，三讀後你們原民會發聲明說要提覆議，提了沒有？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，這個部分我們要研議，後來我們研議的結果沒有提。"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪了，聲明不是嗆得很大聲，說要提覆議？到最後也沒有提，怎麼樣？是卓榮泰不支持嗎？是院長不支持嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是，後來我們就沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，我當然知道你客觀上沒有提嘛，我現在的問題就很清楚，奇怪！原民會是把覆議當兒戲嗎？在臉書上貼，還發了新聞稿，嗆聲嗆得很大聲，結果搞到後來虎頭蛇尾，什麼都沒有做，是你要提覆議，卓榮泰不支持嗎？說清楚啊！原民會可以這樣幹喔？"],["曾主任委員智勇：後來就是我們自己內部研議，我們研議之後就沒有提。"],["黃委員國昌：所以當初發這個聲明，然後寫臉書嗆聲，是思慮不周嗎？你內部還沒有研議完，就急著發臉書嗆聲？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是啦，就是我們……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啊！這個臉書是假的嗎？這個新聞稿是假的嗎？我有說錯嗎？唉！我跟主委講，三思而後行，想清楚啦！不要以後讓大家不把原民會的聲明當一回事，你講了以後又沒有執行到底，讓人家看破手腳，覺得很遺憾。","接下來再請部長。"],["主席：部長有請。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，不好意思，我們那個進度我要繼續追一下，我上一次有請教你，針對集遊法修正的進程，目前進度如何？"],["劉部長世芳：目前警政署已經討論完畢，但是跟其他單位之間……"],["黃委員國昌：還需要多久？"],["劉部長世芳：可能會有困擾，因為行政院會要求我們所謂的附件裡面的禁制區域，禁制區域包括像：醫院或者是像司法機關前面這些，每個人的看法都不相同，所以其實是沒有完全……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在行政院的立場是要繼續維持禁制區嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：現在還是需要考量禁制區，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們先一個個具體地來看，剛才你講到禁制區嘛！這個是內政部在1996年所公告的禁制區，博愛特區劃得非常大，我在地圖上全部把它框出來，這是1996年內政部公告的禁制區。從1996年到現在2025年，這個禁制區的範圍有檢討過嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：現在在檢討，但是呢……"],["黃委員國昌：現在在檢討，所以從1996年，最起碼到今天為止沒有任何變更嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：目前為止是沒有，但是我想委員非常知道，在一些相關的集會遊行活動的時候，其實我們是採取比較彈性的措施。"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是，非常嚴謹，當初馬政府時期的時候，民進黨發的新聞稿是什麼？說那是黑心版本，為什麼說那個時候提出來的是黑心版本？因為它保留禁制區嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，再來，賴清德主張集遊法的禁制區要刪除，這是賴清德在2008年集會遊行法公聽會上代表民主進步黨黨團發表的立場，這個立場到今天是不是改變了？"],["劉部長世芳：這個立場到現在為止，所謂的「禁制區的規定予以廢除」這個事情，其實我們是有所保留，為什麼會有所保留？因為那是……"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以賴清德總統的立場改變了是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我想，賴清德總統……"],["黃委員國昌：所以賴清德總統的立場沒有改變，但是內政部有保留，是這樣嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們的保留是在於執行面會碰到困擾，我想……"],["黃委員國昌：所以當初賴清德在當立委的時候，他主張要廢除禁制區的執行面就沒有問題？"],["劉部長世芳：那個時候醫院的騷擾沒有這麼大，對於醫院等安全禁制區的騷擾沒有這麼大，時移境遷，我們覺得必須要滾動式地調整。"],["黃委員國昌：所以時空環境背景不太一樣了，賴清德立委那個時候的主張，到現在賴清德總統有改變是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：如果說我們的主張，譬如說本來是申請制，然後變成一部分的報備制，其實這就是朝著這個方向在處理。"],["黃委員國昌：對，但是我現在問的是禁制區的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：我們希望審慎的處理，而不是斷崖式的處理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以那時候賴清德的主張是斷崖式的處理嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，那是他的主張，主張和處理的方式牽涉到行政部門的執行方式。行政部門的執行方式就是剛剛我跟委員報告的部分，因為你在司法區域或是相關的司法單位，因為那個不是行政部門，而是司法部門。然後行政部門包括醫院等等這些易受到騷擾或干擾到病患或是干擾到司法院處理業務的部分，這就需要比較多的時間跟他們溝通。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以你剛剛講的那些考慮，賴清德當初在主張廢除禁制區的時候都沒有想到就對了？"],["劉部長世芳：它是一個原則，我們是根據這個原則在處理。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！他當初提的原則不就是要廢除禁制區嗎？來、來、來，紅色的字，你要唸一下嗎？白紙黑字，寫得這麼清楚的東西，立場有改變就改變嘛！有轉彎就轉彎嘛！來，這個是當初2008年一路到現在，2016年那個時候，結果到現在就沒有然後了，部長說要研議，某個程度上我並不反對，但是一個法案從2016年，都是民進黨政府主政嘛！行政部門全部都是民進黨政府嘛！研議到現在2025年了，請問部長還要再研議多久？還是一樣沒有時間表，有可能一路研議到2028年？"],["劉部長世芳：我無法在這個地方跟委員做比較明確的回答，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：所以當初在提政見的時候，怎麼提都可以，真的要實現政見的時候，開始問題一堆，藉口一堆。說要研議，大家也都同意，但重點是什麼？從2016年一路研議到2025年，接下來還要再研議多久？"],["劉部長世芳：仍然會在研議當中，因為這裡面有關報備制的實務座談，或是有關它的安全距離，它確實要做實務的考量。"],["黃委員國昌：是，我知道，我瞭解，持續地研議嘛！不斷地研議嘛！現在你所講的問題，當初在2008年好像都不存在。"],["劉部長世芳：因為當時全部都是禁制區，現在我們把禁制區縮小後就要考慮安全距離。"],["黃委員國昌：你現在講的問題在2008年的時候都不存在，所以2008年的時候賴清德總統才會提出這樣的主張嘛！結果搞到現在2025年還是一模一樣嘛！彷佛你現在講的考慮2028年就都不存在一樣。一個政府開了支票就要兌現，不是拿來跳票的，一而再、再而三地研議。"],["劉部長世芳：但是開了支票要兌票是需要審慎的，因為我們是在執政，我們不希望造成人民的困擾。"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是，所以當初2008年賴清德提出這個主張就是不審慎嘛！就是不嚴謹嘛！賴清德當初提出那樣的主張就是會造成人民的困擾嘛！不是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：主張跟正式的執政還是需要有一段的期間……"],["黃委員國昌：所以嘛！主張說的是一套嘛！真的可以做的時候就沒有要做嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，現在有在做，只是在考量要更審慎，我剛才有提到安全距離跟尺度很重要。"],["黃委員國昌：是，你們說現在有在做，從2016年做到現在已經2025年了，那大家就看你們還要持續研議多久嘛！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢。","下一位請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}