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劉志偉劉志偉好 聲音好像太小了 聽不怎麼清楚"},{"start":24.369,"end":50.701,"text":"好 陳委員長我看到劉哲輝你們國會會的業務報告憑良心講寫得很好跟農業不一樣都非常的清楚這點要一一肯定那今天我第一個要請教你的問題你是台積電的董事那現在台積電是不是會去接收或是跟英特爾合作你是當時"},{"start":55.028,"end":83.977,"text":"這一點我很肯定我們董事會從來沒有討論過這個議題台積電從來沒有談過沒有因為這個裡面我們電腦工會理事長也就是合授的董事長他講的說最好不要你記住這句話他是那種心聲講出來好像很痛苦的樣子因為以前Intel在台灣對電腦科學所以求以起"},{"start":85.219,"end":109.148,"text":"台灣當時都只有敢怒不敢言希望你能瞭解這一點這個我瞭解因為你瞭解因為這個像柴油跟汽油是很難混在一起燒的那所以呢好第二個問題這點要特別的注意不要製造對手要把台積電打垮了"},{"start":111.188,"end":137.689,"text":"你也是台積電的董事現在台積電在美國投資了將近1650億但是你再講最新的制式絕對不會過去最關鍵的機制不准過去國家安全優先你會堅持到底你有信心還是沒有信心你要告訴我這個人不要講官話喔"},{"start":140.101,"end":164.696,"text":"這個是我絕對有信心喔而且我也跟這個郭部長我們探討過這個問題再來台積電也跟我講他最新的製程一定是在台灣我真的經營到順利之後才有可能出去所以我要掏氣陳昌昌部長你們沒有LP我現在舉一個例子跟你講高通區域"},{"start":165.799,"end":172.562,"text":"那個獨佔的那個懷款台灣把七億美金變成一個投資的方案啊我覺得你有那麼大膽的勇氣啊"},{"start":179.763,"end":201.407,"text":"你覺得川普的胃口那麼小嗎要讓美國再次的偽詐你給他N-1 N-2他會不會接受 他要愛是要愛一流他要獨霸這個世界啊所以你講這麼多 我一點信心也沒有你跟我發誓 你堅持到底"},{"start":202.722,"end":212.181,"text":"看你跟我說嘛我跟...你...好你這樣會作怪你怎麼你跟我說你跟我說我一定堅持到底啊蛤你講什麼"},{"start":215.29,"end":240.685,"text":"我一定堅持到底啊我堅持到底一定會守住你堅持到底我看你堅持到底大概你官也做不久了我講這話懷疑美國論你是不懷疑的才能繼續的做我們不會懷疑自己的友方啦該堅持的事情我一定堅持到現在執政黨都是抗中保台"},{"start":241.96,"end":258.526,"text":"那你劉卓偉最勇敢,抗美保台,我講的抗美保台就是抗美國保台基地能不能做到?我覺得我沒有什麼信心,從高中的世界,我們不要說幾位啦,像你一樣都了解彼此啦,怎麼樣?"},{"start":260.066,"end":285.787,"text":"敢不敢抗美 保台積電 抗美保台保台積電不需要抗美啦我們就是堅持我們保台積電技術好啦 我再來拭目以待啦但是我很懷疑啦好不好你真的不用懷疑啦我可以用我的位子來擔保你要曉得啊上次在講台積電的麻煩核心技術 商業機密都要給他了你還有什麼能力啊"},{"start":286.843,"end":308.074,"text":"人家 別的國家烏克蘭要遷土地的培安納戈還可以順便一點沒有 台灣是白白的 我送給你來幫他解培安 請培安IBM在台灣設廠50年也有研發中心HP也有研發中心 微軟也有研發中心但是我們一個技術也拿不到第二個你台積電的董事再多問你一點誰叫你要去當"},{"start":317.77,"end":325.995,"text":"那你至於台積電建廠到2030年就結束了台灣的兇變會何去何從第一個問題"},{"start":327.626,"end":347.624,"text":"亞利桑那州的州長來台灣把台積電的供應鏈整個請他到美國投資那美國的話要再次的偉大他偉大在哪裡我要美國控制所有世界晶片的40%如果這些周邊的產業鏈一到過去的話"},{"start":350.086,"end":356.393,"text":"台灣剩下什麼我第一個重點2030年大概台積電建了這11場不會再繼續再電剛剛所講的台灣到2030年台積電用的電量24.7 將近三分之一"},{"start":367.955,"end":388.028,"text":"所以NAS的電也不夠他用你還有AI的資料中心用電也很窮所以你都說得好聽整個產業鏈過去了要怎麼辦這是第一個問題第二個問題沒有跟台積電的產業鏈過去比如在台灣要銷到美國還是100%的關稅"},{"start":391.991,"end":397.057,"text":"我問這兩個問題你幫我回答一下我先跟委員解釋一下齁台積電整個產能的規劃80%在台灣"},{"start":400.199,"end":418.331,"text":"百分之八十在台灣 百分之八十在台灣 這是第一點第二點 其實我們在看整個供應鏈 台灣最有可以再往上發展的是兩個部分一個是我們的材料 化學的部分 第二個部分是設備的部分大廠有辦法供應鏈過去 一般從本工廠到那一邊 要學著過去的話很困難"},{"start":423.795,"end":439.221,"text":"如果要銷到美國也有關稅那麼高好好考慮這個問題不要只有報喜不報憂啊很多人都在探討這個問題啊產業鏈會空洞化2030以後我們的經濟變化會怎麼樣主委我希望你好好考慮一個問題好第二個問題再來好 你好好考慮如果能一個評估報告出來最好都要講實話"},{"start":452.182,"end":475.459,"text":"那現在兩岸的關係非常的嚴峻我們賴總統把中國當為境外的敵對勢力那ECO如果停下來的時候會怎麼樣現在我們對中國大陸去年的勝差還700億美元也是最大的勝差現在慢慢被美國"},{"start":477.13,"end":505.829,"text":"期待掉了那我現在問你ECFA在這樣一段下來的時候我們的傳統產業我們這些高科技產業你要怎麼辦好好想這個問題如果以目前的情勢我看起來很有可能中斷ECFA他已經在調查你請銷不對等的貿易條件你國外會主委要好好的應用這樣的問題"},{"start":509.213,"end":520.327,"text":"這個我有請教因為這經濟部全責我有請教過經濟部長他們是說去年他們就開始在協助廠商移轉市場我實在聽不太清楚你可以靠近麥克風嗎"},{"start":522.885,"end":537.913,"text":"這個問題是經濟部主導的所以我日前有請教過經濟部 郭部長郭部長是明確的告訴我 你不能講陸委會的主導你要各種情報蒐集在一起 你這樣說就太不負責任了這是經濟部的事情啦 經濟部幾年就開始經濟部合作這些社會 開始移轉市場這是經濟部的說明"},{"start":550.469,"end":576.341,"text":"你們不擔憂啦但是其實中小企業我們的企業也很擔憂好不好如果兩邊的關稅都整個提高的話台灣的市場要跑到哪裡跑到東南亞南向的政策還是到墨西哥去投資被關稅就全部趕到美國大陸台灣空中化休想未來會發生的事情"},{"start":579.515,"end":585.359,"text":"你要曉得川普的胃口不會那麼小啦你要重演啦好不好注意一下這種情勢的發展那剛剛講到AI產業那我剛剛也講過台積電用電到了2030年已經將近"},{"start":605.451,"end":626.084,"text":"應該是四分之一將近25%我相信他不會在台灣在場未來台灣整個產業是跟著台積電在走他資質站得那麼高所以你要想到這幾年的一個後面的發展這幾年還可以維持住那"},{"start":627.577,"end":644.103,"text":"你國發會跟經濟部都一直在談AI的產業那台灣科技的產業裡面主要是做硬體的將近佔了世界的三分之一這是台灣的實力但是AI軟體產業我們的軟體產業佔不到1%"},{"start":649.385,"end":671.776,"text":"這是材料就覺得 其實最有價值的就在軟體但是台灣的企圖態勢 至少軟體都台來台去沒有價值 我是跟你良心講所以你現在有AI產業正在勢頭上我希望國安委跟經濟部好好的去研究"},{"start":673.376,"end":700.281,"text":"這個AI的硬體產業跟軟體產業一定要培植下來不然世界都在進步世界各地都在追趕你也要把軟體產業應用的產業AI的應用產業建立起來台灣未來在未來裡面可能會遭遇到很大的困難你的看法是如何謝謝委員我們看法一致所以我們在去年的AI施政主軸裡面就軟體產業"},{"start":701.421,"end":725.682,"text":"解決方案產業是我們的最首要的業務那我們也跟業者還有協會哪裡協會我們都有溝通過我還拉著郭部長一起我們會建立台灣那個軟體的這個平台產業然後以大大小來發展第二個部分我們會強化在百工百業使用AI美國所有的產業都是大資本"},{"start":726.823,"end":743.912,"text":"那中國大陸的Deep Sheet已經出來了不大不小的資本還有一家最近出來的一家聽說那個軟體產業都很好但是台灣還沒有看到AI軟體產業能參照我們自己的一片天地因為說硬體跟"},{"start":746.399,"end":764.356,"text":"軟體一定AI就是深度的學習很重要啊你要趕快建立起來天天不要自我陶醉啊說我們外銷很好啊我們長紅啊這個世界變化莫測隨時要到隨時要有變化一個新的產品出來整個世界就變色了"},{"start":765.357,"end":778.969,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們在Deep-seek出來之後其實有些產業去研究發現它只有簡體的介面不能使用那產業幾乎現在都用聯發科做出來的類似Deep-seek其實因為產業用於的時候大概都是幾種拔齒柱"},{"start":783.493,"end":803.281,"text":"如果把軟體再去加強在世界上占有益息之內比什麼什麼還重要沒錯沒錯好不好因為這個有2.3兆美元的市場規模啦所以我們希望從裡面拉到10%好為台灣加油啊不然你要了解只有用體隨時大家都在趕啊說實在啦"},{"start":805.011,"end":811.237,"text":"搞不好大家也要做啦出來你就要做啦整個紅磊的市場啦好不好是 謝謝委員謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":201,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（9時58分）主席，首先有請國發會劉主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：陳委員早。"],["陳委員超明：劉主委好。聲音好像太小了，聽不怎麼清楚。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：陳委員早！"],["陳委員超明：我看到國發會劉主委的業務報告，憑良心講，寫得很好，跟農業部一樣都非常地清楚，這點要予以肯定。今天我第一個要請教你的問題是，你是台積電的董事，現在台積電是不是會去接收或是跟英特爾合作？你是董事耶！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這點我很肯定，我們董事會從來沒有討論過這個議題。"],["陳委員超明：台積電從來沒有談過？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有。"],["陳委員超明：電腦公會理事長和碩董事長也講說最好不要，你記住這句話，他那種心聲講出來，好像很痛苦的樣子。因為以前Intel在臺灣對電腦可以說是予取予求，臺灣是敢怒不敢言，希望你能了解這一點。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我了解，因為兩家公司……"],["陳委員超明：你了解？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是，這就像柴油跟汽油，是很難混在一起燒的，所以有一定難度。"],["陳委員超明：第二個問題，這一點要特別的注意，不要讓對手把台積電打垮了。你也是台積電董事，現在台積電在美國投資了將近1,650億美元，你講最新的技術絕對不會過去，最關鍵的技術不准過去，國家安全優先，你會堅持到底。這點你有信心，還是沒信心？你要跟我說實話，不要講官話。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我絕對有信心而且我也跟郭部長探討過這個問題。再來，台積電也跟我講，最新的製程一定是在臺灣經營到順利之後，才有可能出去。"],["陳委員超明：我真的聽不怎麼清楚，你聲音大一點。主委，我要套句陳唐山部長的話，「你們沒有LP」！我現在舉一個例子跟你講，高通獨占一案的罰款有7億美金，臺灣卻把這7億美金變成一個投資方案，請問你有那麼大膽的勇氣嗎？你覺得川普的胃口有那麼小嗎？他說要讓美國再次偉大，結果你給他N-1、N-2，你想他會不會接受？他要的是一流的，他要獨霸世界，所以你說這些話我一點信心也沒有。你發誓你會堅持到底，你敢不敢說？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我敢。"],["陳委員超明：好，你會當官。你敢跟我說嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我一定堅持到底。"],["陳委員超明：你說什樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我一定堅持到底。"],["陳委員超明：我聽不太清楚，抱歉！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我堅持到底，一定會守住這個原則。"],["陳委員超明：好，所以你不做官就不堅持到底？若你堅持到底，我看你官也做不久了。我講這話是懷疑美國論，而你是不懷疑的，才能繼續做。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們不會懷疑自己的眼光，但是該堅持的事情，我一定堅持到底。"],["陳委員超明：現在執政黨都是「抗中保台」，劉主委最勇敢「抗美保台」。我講的「抗美保台」就是「抗美國保台積電」，能不能做到？因為我沒有什麼信心，從高通事件來看。所以我們不要說假話，生意人都了解彼此，怎麼樣？敢不敢「抗美保台積電」、「抗美保台」？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：保台積電不需要抗美，我們就是堅持我們保護台積電的技術。"],["陳委員超明：好，我拭目以待，但是我很懷疑，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：你真的不用懷疑，我可以用我的位置來擔保。我如果做不到，我就不做。"],["陳委員超明：你要曉得，他是在找台積電的麻煩，所以核心技術、商業機密都要給他，這樣你還有什麼能力？別的國家像烏克蘭要簽土地協議，都還要再猶豫一下，但臺灣沒有，就白白送給人家，越講問題越多，危險、危險，很危險！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：IBM在臺灣設廠50年有研發中心，HP也有研發中心，微軟也有研發中心，但是我們一個技術都沒拿到……"],["陳委員超明：你也在美國設研發中心……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以台積電會保護自己的利益。"],["陳委員超明：既然你是台積電的董事，我再多問你一點，誰叫你要去當？你注意台積電建廠到2030年就結束了，屆時臺灣的晶片會何去何從？第一個問題，亞利桑那州的州長來臺灣，想把台積電的供應鏈整個請到美國投資。美國要再次偉大，偉大在哪裡？美國要控制世界所有的晶片40%，如果這些周邊的產業鏈移過去，臺灣剩下什麼？我第一個重點是，2030年在台積電建了這11座廠後，大概不會再繼續建。剛剛所講的，臺灣到2030年時台積電的用電量占24.7%、將近四分之一，到時候電也不夠它用，還有AI資料中心的用電很兇。所以你們只講好聽的，到時候整個產業鏈過去了，臺灣要怎麼辦？這是第一個問題。","第二個問題，沒有跟台積電的產業鏈過去、留在臺灣的，要銷到美國還是課100%的關稅嗎？我問這兩個問題，你幫我回答一下。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我先跟委員解釋一下，台積電整個產能的規劃80%在臺灣、八成在臺灣，這是第一點。第二點，其實我們在看整個供應鏈，臺灣最可以再往上發展的是兩個部分，一個是材料、化學的部分；第二個是設備的部分，本來就有計畫要讓他們國際化。"],["陳委員超明：大廠有辦法讓供應鏈過去，但一般中等工廠要學著過去很困難。如果要銷到美國，以後關稅那麼高，所以要好好考慮這個問題，不要只報喜不報憂！很多人都在探討這個問題──產業鏈會空洞化。2030以後，我們的經濟變化會怎麼樣？主委，我希望你好好考慮這個問題。再來，第二個問題……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們已經跟化工產業談過一輪了。"],["陳委員超明：你好好考慮，如果能有一個評估報告出來最好，而且要講實話。現在兩岸關係非常嚴峻，賴總統把中國當作境外敵對勢力，ECFA如果停下來會怎麼樣？我們對中國大陸去年的順差還有700億美元，也是最大的順差，現在慢慢被美國取代掉了。我問你，一旦ECFA在這樣一個嚴峻的期間裡下來時，我們的傳統產業、高科技產業要怎麼辦？好好想想這個問題。以目前的情勢，我看很有可能中斷ECFA，他已經在調查傾銷、不對等的貿易條件等，你身為國發會主委，要好好因應這樣的問題。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這是經濟部的權責，所以我有請教過經濟部長，他們是說去年他們就開始在協助廠商移轉市場。"],["陳委員超明：我實在聽不太清楚，你可以靠近麥克風一點嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個問題是經濟部主導的，所以我日前有請教過經濟部郭部長，郭部長明確的告訴我，他們去年……"],["陳委員超明：你不能講別的部會指導，你要把各種情報蒐集在一起，你這樣講話就太不負責任了！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不！這是經濟部的事情，經濟部去年就開始協助這些業者開始移轉市場。這是經濟部跟我說明的。"],["陳委員超明：經濟部跟國發會是息息相關的，你們卻推來推去？看起來這是早晚要面臨的問題，你們不擔憂，但是中小企業、機械業很擔憂……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們很關心這件事，所以才會主動垂詢。"],["陳委員超明：好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["陳委員超明：如果以後兩邊的關稅都提高，臺灣的市場要跑到哪裡？跑到東南亞、南向的政策？還是到墨西哥去投資？還是因為關稅問題就全部趕到美國、大陸，讓臺灣空洞化？想一下未來會發生的事情。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["陳委員超明：你要曉得川普的胃口不會那麼小！你們要去思考。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員，我會跟……"],["陳委員超明：料敵要從嚴，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我們會……"],["陳委員超明：注意一下這種情勢的發展。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：剛剛講到AI產業，我也講過台積電用電到了2030年已經將近四分之一、25%，我相信之後就不會在臺灣蓋廠！未來臺灣整個產業是跟著台積電在走，它的市值占了那麼高，所以你要想到後面的發展，雖然這幾年還可以維持住。國發會跟經濟部都一直在談AI產業，臺灣的科技產業主要是做硬體，占了將近世界三分之一，這是臺灣的實力。但是我們的軟體產業占不到1%，差距很大，其實最有價值的就在軟體。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，就在軟體！"],["陳委員超明：但是臺灣的市場太小，做出來的軟體都沒有價值，我憑良心講。現在AI產業正在勢頭上，我希望國發會和經濟部好好去研究，培植起AI的硬體產業跟軟體產業，不然世界都在進步，世界各地都在追趕，如果沒有把AI的軟體產業、應用產業建立起來，臺灣在未來可能會遭遇到很大的困難，你的看法如何？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員，我們看法一致，所以我們在去年的AI施政主軸裡面就有軟體產業解決方案，是我們最首要的業務。我們也跟業者還有軟體協會都有溝通過，我還拉著郭部長一起，我們會建立臺灣軟體的平臺產業，以大帶小來發展。第二個部分，我們會強化在百工百業使用AI的部分。"],["陳委員超明：美國所有的產業都是大資本，中國大陸的DeepSeek出來了，不大不小的資本，還有最近出來了一家很好的軟體產業，但是臺灣還沒有看到能創造我們自己一片天地的AI軟體產業。以AI的硬體跟軟體來說，深度學習很重要，所以你要趕快建立起來，不要天天自我陶醉，說我們外銷很好、長紅啊！這個世界變化莫測，隨時有可能會倒、隨時就會起變化出現新的產品，整個世界就變色了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，我們在DeepSeek出來之後，其實有些產業去研究發現它只有簡體的介面，不能使用，產業幾乎現在都用聯發科做出來類似DeepSeek的產品，所以臺灣現在也在發展中……"],["陳委員超明：其實談到AI產業硬體，大概都是由幾家把持住，所以把軟體再加強，在世界上占有一席之地，這比什麼都還重要。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯、沒錯。"],["陳委員超明：好不好？我是這樣……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這有2.3兆美元的市場規模，所以我們希望能從裡面拿到10%。"],["陳委員超明：好，為臺灣加油。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：你要了解，除了硬體外，其餘的大家都在趕！講實在話，最後別人也會做出來，到時候你就倒了，這是個紅海市場，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對啦！是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們現在請楊瓊瓔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","邱志偉","王鴻薇","賴瑞隆","蔡易餘","林倩綺","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","陳冠廷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}