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有請部長有請部長是 陳委員好部長好AIT處長古立言日前回應媒體的詢問有關這個川普總統的印太戰略那麼他說"},{"start":25.762,"end":42.904,"text":"根據美國已經解密的印太戰略的框架那可以他們參考請問我們的同仁看了沒有這份解密的這個是不是請看請這次來說明一下"},{"start":53.857,"end":72.247,"text":"委員好 有關剛剛委員所提示的這個機密版的這部分我們是不是可以在會後再跟委員做報告這個已經解密了但是我們獲得的在獲得的過程當中還是有一些獲得的程序上面我們後面再跟您已經在這邊了是"},{"start":74.901,"end":103.252,"text":"是欧巴恩原来的国安会顾问他签合的解密了那解密了里面原来他这个是啊虽然是原来是列机密但是他不可以转给外国他现在机密解除已经转发了所以这个鼓励研究说请看这一份这里面呢把这个纲要版我先念给大家听啊这个英文的我们把它翻成他说目标啊是使台湾能够有效的"},{"start":104.517,"end":128.356,"text":"部隊能夠發展有效的不對稱戰略以及能力以確保其安全免受威脅有韌性並具備有以自身條件與中國交涉的能力啊這句話接不接頭對不對話你自己的能力評估這份報告我建議大家把它看一下還包括日韓的那麼剛才這個"},{"start":130.632,"end":158.451,"text":"在這個報告過程中間我們特別要跟部長在這個建言就是說我們現在的因為不管你是經常戰備應急戰備提升了我們這裡面有一個交戰規則那現在大家對這個ROE也都強調了可是過去我們發現這個我們都把它放到最低層可是對空軍來講如果你攔截並不是要接戰就是伴飛"},{"start":159.892,"end":185.275,"text":"你的距離是多少500碼200碼還是允許他飛到20碼那麼海軍的艦艇半航以前美軍抗議因為我們接近到2000碼那大角度轉線都有可能碰撞像這些東西每天的狀況在變這個是需要有授權的那麼因此這個戰務令的法制化並不是光連山或是軍種作戰的"},{"start":187.11,"end":207.663,"text":"跟我们的军法法务人员要有一个相关的互动那这个配套机制啊就是说战务令啊要发展作战指挥跟军法配套的机制也就是准则教范要落实到教育里面那现在这些东西在我们的子弹教育战院并没有授课"},{"start":210.421,"end":237.914,"text":"ROE是行使自卫权以及主动攻击完成任务的权利那这个里面包括国防部我们的法律师包括国防大学就是法学研究中心战院职参教育以及联参要共同来修正因此所谓的授权并不是给低阶也就是说如果恒指所的功效因为某种原因不能发挥"},{"start":239.585,"end":260.582,"text":"各作战区各军种他作战部队的权责划分下售这个需要我们将来啊要律定这个那么甚至就说战争法武装冲突法以及海洋法公约的专业法务人员这是需要纳入课程的而不是参谋的业务"},{"start":261.443,"end":284.922,"text":"那么刚才前面有委员讲就是中共在2月26号在我们的这个经济海域那么这个做了一个临时的演训那么美方很多大家都有谴责或不同的看法那我们这个里面这次在船上的官员是引述联合国海洋法公约第56条58条但56 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300公里这个系统跟陆军现在的数位图还没有整合"},{"start":398.393,"end":400.099,"text":"那同樣海軍的機動的魚叉飛彈"},{"start":402.346,"end":431.575,"text":"它的射程跟這個互相涵蓋那目標怎麼分還有遠程的防空飛彈如果這個時候各單位的授權分成負責不能妥協就產生重複擊中目標或者是漏掉哪個目標這個部分是很重要的那麼因為時間有限了我後面就不再用戲圖我再下去後跟您的幕僚我們做一些建議我特別強調ROE要變成我們的課程"},{"start":432.415,"end":451.077,"text":"一定要在国防大学或是法律系来教这个课程并不是连山的作业单位或是军种的作战单位他去定这个游戏规则因为过去我们办行连美军都抗议说你太靠近了那每天他不是定性的那空军的防蓝半飞"},{"start":452.368,"end":471.43,"text":"500码200码老公游的时候搞危险动作搞到20码这个东西长官不授权飞行员不能自我做判断所以这个部分希望大家努力在ROE的部分纳入课程而且是作战跟法务要共同来协助那以上我提出建言谢谢各位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":390,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（10時36分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員好。"],["陳委員永康：部長好。AIT處長谷立言日前回應媒體詢問，有關川普總統的印太戰略，他說根據美國已經解密的印太戰略框架，他們可以參考，請問你們的同仁看了這份解密沒有？"],["顧部長立雄：這個是不是請情次室說明一下？"],["謝次長日升：委員好，有關於剛剛委員所提示的這個機密版部分，我們是不是可以會後再跟委員做報告……"],["陳委員永康：這已經解密了。"],["謝次長日升：是，但我們獲得的過程當中，還是有一些獲得的程序上面，容我們後面再跟您……"],["陳委員永康：已經在這邊了？"],["謝次長日升：是。"],["陳委員永康：是O'Brien，原來的國安會顧問簽核、解密的。解密的那裡面，雖然原來是列機密，但是不可以轉給外國，現在機密解除已經轉發了，所以谷立言就說請看這份，綱要版我先念給大家聽，英文的我們把它翻譯，他說目標是使臺灣能夠發展有效的不對稱戰略以及能力，以確保其安全免受威脅，有韌性，並具備以自身條件與中國交涉的能力，這句話接不接頭、對不對話，你自己的能力評估，這份報告我建議大家看一下，還包括日、韓的。","剛才在報告過程中，我們特別要跟部長再建言，不管你是經常戰備、應急戰備提升了，我們這裡面有一個交戰規則，現在大家對這個ROE也都強調了，過去我們都把它放到最低層，可是對空軍來講，如果你攔截並不是要接戰，就是伴飛，你的距離是多少？500碼、200碼還是允許他飛到20碼？海軍的艦艇伴航，以前美軍抗議，因為我們接近到2,000碼，大角度轉線都有可能碰撞，像這些東西每天的狀況在變，這個是需要有授權的。","因此這個戰務令的法制化並不是光聯三或軍種作戰的，跟我們的軍法法務人員要有相關互動，這個配套機制就是，戰務令要發展作戰指揮和軍法配套的機制，準則教範要落實到教育裡面。現在這些東西在我們的指參教育、戰院並沒有授課，ROE是行使自衛權以及主動攻擊完成任務的權利。這裡面包括國防部法律司，包括國防大學，就是法學研究中心，戰院、指參教育以及聯參要共同修正。因此所謂的授權並不是給低階，也就是如果衡指所的功效因為某種原因不能發揮，各作戰區、各軍種作戰部隊的權責劃分下授，我們將來需要律定這個。甚至戰爭法、武裝衝突法以及海洋法公約的專業法務人員，這是需要納入課程的，而不是參謀的業務。","前面有委員講，中共2月26日在我們的經濟海域做了一個臨時演訓，美方及大家都有譴責或不同的看法，那我們這次在船上的官員是引述聯合國海洋法公約第五十六條、第五十八條，但第五十六條、第五十八條是在經濟海域，而第五十八條最後refer到第八十七條，還是以公海上的權利。現在講經濟海域，那麻煩了！我們的經濟海域，在圖上只有魚權的經濟海域，因為我們跟其他國家重疊，跟菲律賓、日本、大陸，你要把經濟海域重疊區劃出來才能引述這個條件，因此圖像提供很重要，不是意識形態的。像我們陸軍是本土防衛作戰；海軍的接戰或交戰有公海、有領海；空軍的防空，有領空也可能境外的反制，所以這些東西都跟圖、ROE有相關聯，我們在這個部分一定要強化，一定要從我們的法律司、法學院，還有國防大學的指參教育、戰院，一定要把這個當作課程來授課，而不是用部隊長的主觀判斷，一定要有法條依據。","現在談到了這個COP，我們如果今天去中心化，其實去中心化的這個想定條件的意思就是，指管中心有部分功能已經不能傳導到下級部隊了，這個時候的情資分享，你沒有接COP，可是你也要有一個CTP（Common Tactical Picture），以我們的「海馬斯」系統為例，裝備都來了，彈還沒到，包括射程30公里、70公里、300公里，這個系統跟陸軍現在的數位圖還沒有整合。同樣的，海軍機動魚叉飛彈的射程和這個互相涵蓋，那麼目標怎麼分？還有遠程的防空飛彈，如果這個時候各單位的授權、分層負責不能妥協，就會產生重複擊中目標或者是漏掉哪個目標的問題，這個部分是很重要的。因為時間有限，我後面就不再用細圖，下去以後我再跟您的幕僚做一些建議。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["陳委員永康：我特別強調，ROE要變成我們的課程，一定要在國防大學或者是在法律系來教這個課程，並不是由聯三的作業單位或是軍種的作戰單位去訂這個遊戲規則，因為過去我們伴航連美軍都抗議，說你太靠近了，它不是每天定性的，空軍的防攔、伴飛500碼、200碼，老共有的時候搞危險動作搞到20碼，這個東西長官不授權，飛行員不能自我做判斷。所以這個部分希望大家努力，在ROE的部分納入課程，而且是作戰和法務要共同來協助。以上提出建言，謝謝各位。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員，我們下去之後會就我們已經做的，還有應該要精進的部分再請委員做指教。"],["陳委員永康：好，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["主席：楚茵委員，不好意思，讓部長先休息一下。","我們休息一下，因為剛剛麥克風有點問題，我們就趁這個休息時間先處理一下。時間先抓5分鐘。","休息（10時45分）","繼續開會（10時53分）"],["主席：會議繼續。麥克風系統可能還是不太穩定，所以待會兒就請用無線麥克風。","現在請林楚茵委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}